Isreal and American support for violence.

[psychocat]

I hate hypocrisy and it would seem to me that the US is guilty as hell right now.
The US goverment says "We want a ceasefire in the Middle East" but then they are still supplying Isreal with weapons.
Am I the only one who believes that if America wants peace in the east they should not supply anyone with weapons?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=397838&in_page_id=1811&in_page_id=1811&expand=true

[Bong30]

I hate hypocrisy and it would seem to me that the US is guilty as hell right now.
The US goverment says "We want a ceasefire in the Middle East" but then they are still supplying Isreal with weapons.
Am I the only one who believes that if America wants peace in the east they should not supply anyone with weapons?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=397838&in_page_id=1811&in_page_id=1811&expand=true
PC..............get over it. 6 million Jews will not die agian.

[slowthestone]

I can stop hearing about mel gibson at any time now.

No really......make it stop.

[Psycho4Bud]

First off, if the U.S. wasn't supplying Israel some other country would. Probably France.........after all, they gave Israel nuclear technology.

Second, if they weren't supplied so heavily they would be swarmed by their loving neighbors

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[dopesmoker]

no they should not.

[psychocat]

First off, if the U.S. wasn't supplying Israel some other country would. Probably France.........after all, they gave Israel nuclear technology.

Second, if they weren't supplied so heavily they would be swarmed by their loving neighbors

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

So would you say that the reaction to recent events was justified ?
What France has to do with this is a moot point really since I was asking about America not any other country,I don't believe anyone should be supplying either side as you are simply profitting from misery.


I can tell you that that there are so many similarities between the Milosevic regime and the regime in Isreal. Both have intention of ethnically cleansing their Mulsim population either through military or economic means. Both tried to restict the freedom of these people for example by restricting the freedom of movement or as was the case in Serbia the right to work. Both regimes have showed racist attitudes towards their Muslim population. The only difference is that USA dared to confront Serbia over the genocide in Bosnia , whereas it failed to confront Isreal over its treatment of arabs in Palestine.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[Torog]

Howdy psychocat,

I voted yes,in yer poll..not only should we supply Israel munitions,but I hope that we have offered to provide something that they ain't got..a good ol' fashioned carpet-bombing with B-52's..it worked dang good at making thousands of Iraqi soldiers surrender and it's good at collapsing tunnel networks and bunkers too. The AC-130 Spectre gun-ships and A-10's,would be great for mopping up.

You see..there won't be a cease-fire that lasts more than 24 hours,until we or the Israeli's,destroy hezbollah. There can be no cease-fire,worth the paper it's written on,till Nasrallah and his minions,are blown to bits.

Have a good one ...

[Psycho4Bud]

So would you say that the reaction to recent events was justified ?

It's not just the recent events but a combination of events from the point that they left Southern Lebanon to the present. Lebanon was also suppose to have Hezbollah disarmed by this point and taken control of that region under a U.N. resolution and if that would have happened, this would have been avoided.

What France has to do with this is a moot point really since I was asking about America not any other country,I don't believe anyone should be supplying either side as you are simply profitting from misery.

I brought up France due to the fact that they did give Israel nuclear technology and created the imbalance in the region. I agree that war isn't the best option at times but unfortunately when you have all your neighbors calling for your destruction...........

I kind of look at it this way also, why did Hezbollah have to cross the border, kill 3 Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others? When ya get kicked in the knees enough you eventually start swinging back.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[thcbongman]

I brought up France due to the fact that they did give Israel nuclear technology and created the imbalance in the region. I agree that war isn't the best option at times but unfortunately when you have all your neighbors calling for your destruction...........

I kind of look at it this way also, why did Hezbollah have to cross the border, kill 3 Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others? When ya get kicked in the knees enough you eventually start swinging back.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

This wasn't an uncommon occurance. Hezbollah has done it in the past, and Israel and them exchanged prisoners in the past. Each side captures their troops all the time. I don't believe this incident is enough to provoke an offensive that spillovers to a country which really can't do anything about this situation. From 1975-1990 Lebanon was at civil war. This was a country that is basically damage goods that was working towards some democratic reforms. They don't have the capability themselves to disarm Hezbollah, which is I'm assuming Israel figured out.

However, I don't really like the premises that you have to destroy a country to destroy a terrorist group. That's not setting up good precedent for the future. Now any country can come and say "hey there's a terrorist group in your country, they're blowing up our people and infrastructure, we'll attack. Already Israel has responded in a similar way America has, using the same justification for terrorism. What would you think if China used terrorism has an excuse to invade Taiwan? Or India had enough of the terrorism in Kashmir and invaded it?

It's a concept that can be easily abused and twisted.

[graymatter]

Arms supply is more of a free market activity than I ever imagined. Watch Lord of Wars. You don't need to pass an ideology exam to get weapons; you just need cash...

[Psycho4Bud]

This wasn't an uncommon occurance. Hezbollah has done it in the past, and Israel and them exchanged prisoners in the past. Each side captures their troops all the time. I don't believe this incident is enough to provoke an offensive that spillovers to a country which really can't do anything about this situation. From 1975-1990 Lebanon was at civil war. This was a country that is basically damage goods that was working towards some democratic reforms. They don't have the capability themselves to disarm Hezbollah, which is I'm assuming Israel figured out.

Then Lebanon should have looked to the U.N. for assistance instead of allowing Hezbollah to gain such strenth. When Israel left Lebanon it was in Syrian control...seems funny that they are so close of buddies now. A Shi'ite terrorist group with a Sunni dominant country? IF they did succeed in wiping out Israel they would be fighting each other within' a matter of months.

However, I don't really like the premises that you have to destroy a country to destroy a terrorist group. That's not setting up good precedent for the future. Now any country can come and say "hey there's a terrorist group in your country, they're blowing up our people and infrastructure, we'll attack. Already Israel has responded in a similar way America has, using the same justification for terrorism. What would you think if China used terrorism has an excuse to invade Taiwan? Or India had enough of the terrorism in Kashmir and invaded it?

It's a concept that can be easily abused and twisted.

China has more/less put it on the table that as of 2010 Taiwan will comply...kind of like the Borg.......resistance is futile! India, mutual destruction, nuclear, between Pakistan and India if all hell brakes loose.

If we had the same situation here on the Mexican border how would we/the U.S. react? What would our people demand? Israel has the same right to exist without this type of garbage.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[Fengzi]

If we had the same situation here on the Mexican border how would we/the U.S. react? :

We'd eat burritos :p

I agree that Isreal has the right to exist but still think they go way overboard in protecting that right. They practice Dubya Diplomacy; "Fuck Negotiation! Do what I say or I'll bomb the shit out of every last man woman and child...And don't mess with Texas"

Seriously, do they really think theyre wining any sympathy among their neighbors. I'm not saying they should bow down to the radical terrorist groups but everyone knows you can't go strirring up a hornets nest and not expect to get stung.

[Psycho4Bud]

They give back southern Lebonan and get their soldiers kidnapped, they give back Gaza and have rockets flying into their southern towns. The hornets don't give a crap about conditions.......terminally pissed. Relations were on the road with Mahmoud Abbas until they got a soldier kidnapped........well heaven forbid Hezbollah is outdone.

With their weapons/nuclear arsenal, they could EASILY dust both these areas in a heart beat. I don't really see the use of excessive force myself.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[Great Spirit]

Israel and Amerika are the main threats to world peace!!

[Bong30]

Israel and Amerika are the main threats to world peace!!
No this is GS.....

[Psycho4Bud]

Just put a sticky on this poll also.........psychocat...would an extra week be agreeable with you?

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[cannabis campbell]

No, children dying, i think its fucking sick

[Bong30]

No, children dying, i think its fucking sick

what about the rocket attacks? people are dieing on bolth side CC.

why dont you guys say shit about Iran getting arms for Hezbullah?

cause you are brain washe dby the left leaning media........... thats why.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276392,00.html


8 killed in rocket attack on Haifa



(VIDEO) Attack on north resumes: Rockets fired by Hizbullah terrorists from Lebanon land in Haifa; eight killed by direct hit on train depot. Worker: The truth is that last night (Saturday) I had a very bad feeling that this time it (rocket fire) would reach us. Today my premonition came true. Nahariya, Kiryat Bialik also targeted
Ahiya Raved



VIDEO - Israel Police said eight people were killed by a direct rocket strike on a train depot in Haifaâ??s Shemen Beach. Magen David Adom paramedics treated dozens of people wounded in the attack and evacuated them to hospitals in the city.



The names of the victims were released for publication:



Reuvan Levi, 43 year-old from Kiryat Ata

Danis Lapidos, 24 year-old from Kiryat Yam

Shmuel Ben Shimon, 41 year-old from Yokneam Ilit

Nisim Elhariri, 43 year-old from Kiryat Ata

Asa'el Damti, 39 year-old from Kiryat Yam

David Feldman, 28 year-old from Kiryat Yam

Sholomi Mansura, 35 year-old from Nahariya

Rafi Hazan, 30 year-old from Haifa




The IDF has begun an initial investigation of the incident. Sources in the IDF told Ynet that Hizbullah used, for the first time, a different type of rocket against Haifa, the Fajr model. The rocket has a 40 kilometer range, and can carry a larger amount of explosives than the Katyusha.

[cannabis campbell]

Well its just what i've seen on the news over here about them bombing orphanages with children still in them etc

And george b, talking about a cease fire when hes the one helping them with weapons it.

[pisshead]

I hate hypocrisy and it would seem to me that the US is guilty as hell right now.
The US goverment says "We want a ceasefire in the Middle East" but then they are still supplying Isreal with weapons.
Am I the only one who believes that if America wants peace in the east they should not supply anyone with weapons?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=397838&in_page_id=1811&in_page_id=1811&expand=true

that's exactly what it is. it's doublethink. we must accept that we are spreading freedom and demockracy to the world with bombs and puppet dictators.

why don't we just hand them copies of our constitution, we're not using it anymore, if applied correctly it leads to freedom from tyranny of government...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one deniesâ??all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. (pages 35, 176-177)

[Bong30]

Well its just what i've seen on the news over here about them bombing orphanages with children still in them etc

And george b, talking about a cease fire when hes the one helping them with weapons it.

CC if they are bombing a orphanage its cause hezbullah is in there...they were hiding in a hospital.......... Isreal soldiers went in there and went room to room to clear the dirt bags out......... why didnt they just level it.

See bolth sides.......... not just the anti isreal media.... they are washing our brain.


If hezbullah would put on a uniform and get away from civilians it would help, but they hide amoung civilians. What do you do?

[psychocat]

If hezbullah would put on a uniform and get away from civilians it would help, but they hide amoung civilians. What do you do?

Bomb everything in the vicinity like the isrealis are?

How do you expect the public in that area to react when 50 of them die for every so called Hezbollah terrorist killed?

You don't remove a tumour with a sledgehammer you use a precision scalpel, if I were an Isreali doctor confronted by a difficult to remove brain tumour would I be justified in chopping of the patients head?

None of which has anything to do with the original question .
How can the US justify saying "we demand a peaceful resolution" whilst arming one of the protagonists?

[Bong30]

Armenian Genocide - Muslims
Ambon Massacre - Muslims
Beslan School attack- Muslims
World Trade Center attacks (Twice) - Muslims
Pentagon attack - Muslims
Malcolm Kerr, Pres. American University, kidnapped & murdered - Muslims
Paul Johnson, kidnapper and beheaded - Muslims
Pan Am Flight 109 bombing - Muslims
Orly Airport attack - Muslims
Istanbul Airport attack - Muslims
Assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II - Muslim
Skyjack Sunday, 3 planes hijacked and blown up - Muslims
Planet Hollywood bombing in Cape Town - Muslims
La Belle nightclub bombing in Berlin - Muslims
AK-47 attack on CIA employees in Virginia - Muslim
Metro bombings in Paris (Twice) - Muslims
US Embassy bombing in Peru - Muslims
Russian Apartment Complex bombings - Muslims
Tunisian Synoqogue bombing - Muslim
Dagestan bombings - Muslims
US Consulate attack in Karachi - Muslims
North Ossetia Hospital attack - Muslims
Bombing of Mariott Hotel in Jakarta - Muslims
Australian Embassy bombing in Jakarta - Muslims
British Consulate and HSBC bombings - Istanbul - Muslims
Sudan Genocide - Muslims
US Embassies in Kenya & Tanzania attacks - Muslims USS Cole attack - Muslims
Nicholas Berg, kidnapped and beheaded - Muslims
Bali nightclub bombings - Muslims
Moscow subway bombings - Muslims
Twin bombings of Russian airliners - Muslims
Murder of Theo van Gogh - Muslims
Kidnapping of hundreds of civilians & beheadings of scores in the Philippines -
Muslims
Luxor Attacks - Muslims
Attempted attack on Egyptian President Mubarak - Muslims
Lt. Col. W. Higgins, kidnapped & murdered - Muslims
US Embassy in Beirut attacks (Twice) - Muslims
French Embassy in Beirut attack - Muslims
Hijack of TWA Flight 847 - Muslims
Bombing of Jewish Cultural Center in Buenos Aires - Muslims
Moscow Opera House attack and hostage taking - Muslims
Bombings & Suicide attacks in Tashkent and Boukhara - Muslims
Marine Barracks attacks Beirut - Muslims
Egyptian Embassy attack in Pakistan - Muslims
Dhahran Housing Attack - Muslims
Thousands of beheadings in Algeria - Muslims
Madrid Train Bombing - Muslims
Suicide Bombers in Iraqi and Israel - Muslims
Margaret Hussan, kidnapped and murdered - Muslims
Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and beheaded - Muslims
Beheading of bound and defenseless noncombatants - Muslims
Sarajevo Market Massacre - Muslims
Seattle Jewish Center Murders - Muslims
Modern Slave Trade in Africa - Muslims
Somnath Slaughter - Muslims
Taliban - executions of thousands and destruction of Afghan culture - Muslims
Enslavement and trade of Africans into Western Europe and Americas
Honor rapes and killings - Muslims
Oppression of women - Muslims
Oppression and suppression of other religions - Muslims
Jihad - Muslims
Fatwa - Muslims
Plus hundreds of other attacks, bombings, rapes and murders

[psychocat]

Genocide of the native inhabitants - US
Slavery - US
Undermining sovereign Nations -US
Ruling Half the World and killing off thousands of em - England

Your point is???

None of the above takes into account that America has occupied more countries in the last 100 years than any other, that the west as a whole has been seriously ripping of third world countries for longer still and you can kinda see why some people are mightily pissed at the west.

However do you really think the US has any right to arm one nation against another??

[Bong30]

Genocide of the native inhabitants - US
Slavery - US
Undermining sovereign Nations -US
Ruling Half the World and killing off thousands of em - England

Your point is???

None of the above takes into account that America has occupied more countries in the last 100 years than any other, that the west as a whole has been seriously ripping of third world countries for longer still and you can kinda see why some people are mightily pissed at the west.

However do you really think the US has any right to arm one nation against another??
Yes cause the other side can get weapons too..........would you like me to post links?

[graymatter]

I agree with both of you. Fanatical Muslim culture sucks... Their dogma promotes backward, irrational, violent, suicidal emotions and behavior. Call it a generalization, but prove it wrong.

But the U.S. isn't a model for fostering TRUE democracy ANYWHERE that commercial interest doesn't matter... and Fanatical Christians finally figured out that the Ku Klux Klan approach to getting their way wasn't working anymore, so they hire lawyers that specialize in the 1st amendment.

Fanatical Muslims are about 100 years behind fanatical Christians with respect to legal and systematic processes.

[psychocat]

Yes cause the other side can get weapons too..........would you like me to post links?

So the fact that one side can get weapons is good enough reason to give them to their enemy?
Isn't that just going to contribute to the problem?
Shouldn't the might of the west then be concentrated on disarming both parties?

It doesn't suprise me in the least that Bush supports the sale of weapons


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,792196,00.html

[graymatter]

Weapons rule the moment, but they're not the lingering issues... Address and peacefully resolve differences of sacredness and property; the rest will follow like ducks... kind of like the divorce settlement from hell.

[Mark Bryan]

I hate hypocrisy and it would seem to me that the US is guilty as hell right now.
The US goverment says "We want a ceasefire in the Middle East" but then they are still supplying Isreal with weapons.
Am I the only one who believes that if America wants peace in the east they should not supply anyone with weapons?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=397838&in_page_id=1811&in_page_id=1811&expand=true
Please understand that Israel (Judah:Genesis;49:8-10) is our ally,(and brother nation) Without America,(Joseph/Manasseh:Genesis;49:22-26) Israel would cease to exist and Islamofascism would spread from there to Europe and eventually here alot faster than you're seein' it now! We're sullpyin'them the weapons and planes for their survival,while fightin' against the Iraqis (Chaldeans/Babylonians) And Afghanistan (Ishmael/Esau's seed) http://www.ensignmessage.com/worldaffairs9.htm

[psychocat]

You're quoting the bible to an atheist.
It is also obvious that you are probably religiously fanatical yourself as your post smacks of Islamophobia, neither religion should be taken to extreme, have you read Leviticus?
I find the bible and all religions are used as an excuse for hatred it's all BS.

You did not address my point but in so doing you reminded me of another point.

How can the US be unbiased and mediate whilst showing support for one side?
Surely they should support peace rather than war?


PS even an Atheist like me can quote the bible too

"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

[Mark Bryan]

You're quoting the bible to an atheist.
It is also obvious that you are probably religiously fanatical yourself as your post smacks of Islamophobia, neither religion should be taken to extreme, have you read Leviticus?
I find the bible and all religions are used as an excuse for hatred it's all BS. I will NOT argue with your point here. You are ENTITLED to your opinion and I welcome that.But the BIBLE is NOT all about hatred,it's the religious fanatics to use your own words! I hate them just as much as YOU do! I'm more of a Washington Conservative and originally a Southern Baptist. I HATE HYPOCRITES!


You did not address my point but in so doing you reminded me of another point. Can you be a 'lil more specific?


How can the US be unbiased and mediate whilst showing support for one side?
Surely they should support peace rather than war?I agree there are corrupt individuals in the military and government,but I believe in peace through strength,trust but verify! If you look at the eagle on the back of your dollar bill,it has both a bundle of arrows (war) AND an olive branch (peace) (both are symbols of Manasseh,Joseph's first born!) The eagle's head faces in the direction of the olive branch which indicates it's desire for peace,but willingness to fight if necessary,so it's a delicate balance (or tightrope) look back at my previous post,I added another link.


PS even an Atheist like me can quote the bible too
So can Satan!
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)[/QUOTE]:thumbsup: NOT BAD FOR AN ATHEIST! This helps explain Israel's (Judah's) situation!

[Mark Bryan]

Sorry,won't let me edit to add the other link. http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/sonishmael.html Here it is!:D My OTHER explanation! The verse quoted,(Genesis;16:12) is what I'm referrin' to.

[psychocat]

I really fail to see what relevance this has to my question.
Lets take religion out of the formula and also nationality.

For the sake of sanity (I believe all religions to be a form of insanity) we will say that there are 6 sides and two sides (blue and red say) fall out ,,to which yellow says to red we are your friends have some weapons to protect yourself ,, to which green replies we will give the blues weapons.
Are yellow and green helping the situation or aggravating it?
Meanwhile black and white are saying halt all hostilities,, surely the best course of action is this yet yellow and green still continue to arm both sides.
Shouldn't black and white be left alone to resolve the problem peacefully ?
Wouldn't the inclusion of yellow or green in the peace process just give a bias for one side?

Using the bible to justify violence against any nation is imo retarded and Americas insistance that it is a Christian nation is mad when it supplies the means to kill others,, how is that Christian??.

BTW there is probably more religious diversity in the US than anywhere else.

My original question is one of ethics not religion, you ask me to accept something I rejected as insanity many years ago, wether Muslim ,Christian or whatever I don't care.

[Mark Bryan]

Using the bible to justify violence against any nation is imo retarded and Americas insistance that it is a Christian nation is mad when it supplies the means to kill others,, how is that Christian??.

I wasn't usin' the bible to JUSTIFY violence,but to EXPLAIN what was accurately FORETOLD! Example,Isaiah;31:5,Matthew ;24:32-36 and Luke;21:24 all look to the 6-Day War,June 5-10 1967! Isaiah talks about BIRDS FLYIN' when he mentions the Lord of hosts DEFENDIN' Jerusalem and Luke ;21:24 narrows it down to the DAY when it says : JERUSALEM will be trodden underfoot of the Gentiles UNTIL the time of the Gentiles be FULFILLED! Historically,Jerusalem fell to the Romans in 70 A.D.(C.E.) WHEN did the Jews (Judah) RE-capture Jerusalem? JUNE 7,1967!! Jesus says in Matthew when the fig tree's branch(modern Israel) becomes tender and grows(captures more territory) ye know that SUMMER IS NEAR! When does summer start? June 21! 11 days after the 6-Day War ended! The scriptures listed are 100% ACCURATE! So if I'm justifyin' VIOLENCE please show me where! I concede people DO justify violence but don't accuse ME of doin' that! As far as Israel goes why condemn THEM and not Hamas or Hezballah? Why condemn the good guys? Hamas and Hezballah DESERVE what they get! At LEAST Israel is droppin' leaflets tellin' the Lebanese to GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE! ONE reason so many civilians are gettin' killed is because the HEZBULLY COWARDS:rolleyes: Position their rocket launcher trucks IN or AROUND residential areas and then PULL OUT when airstrikes are called in resultin' in civilian casualties! Another thing they do is BLOCK their own people from leavin' at GUNPOINT and threaten to KILL ANYONE who TRIES to escape or evacuate,so when civilians are killed they say SEE SEE? THEY'RE BABY KILLERS! So your above question SHOULD be addressed at HEZBALLAH and HAMAS! Why condemn SELF DEFENSE?

[psychocat]

As far as Israel goes why condemn THEM and not Hamas or Hezballah? Why condemn the good guys? Hamas and Hezballah DESERVE what they get! At LEAST Israel is droppin' leaflets tellin' the Lebanese to GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE! ONE reason so many civilians are gettin' killed is because the HEZBULLY COWARDS:rolleyes: Position their rocket launcher trucks IN or AROUND residential areas and then PULL OUT when airstrikes are called in resultin' in civilian casualties! Another thing they do is BLOCK their own people from leavin' at GUNPOINT and threaten to KILL ANYONE who TRIES to escape or evacuate,so when civilians are killed they say SEE SEE? THEY'RE BABY KILLERS! So your above question SHOULD be addressed at HEZBALLAH and HAMAS! Why condemn SELF DEFENSE?

So therefore Isreal knows it is bombing civilians and not terrorists, how can that be classed as self defense ?
Once again I find myself repeating what I have already said, surely a surgical response (similar to the way IRA terrorists were hunted) is called for in that case and not indiscriminate bombing ?

The creation of Isreal is really the problem imo.

However that was not was I was asking and if you could get your head around the question without including religion you may well understand that the point I am trying to make really has nothing to do with any of that. You are just predjudiced by your own obsession with the bible, "Us Christians have to fight against the Muslim threat" just sounds so retarded to my ears.

Let me rephrase it for you.

Should anyone throw gasoline on a burning fire and expect it to go out?
Does America think it is helping the situation by choosing sides and then telling both sides we want peace ?
My question is about the ethics of the US not really about the Isreal situation.

[Mark Bryan]

So therefore Isreal knows it is bombing civilians and not terrorists, how can that be classed as self defense ? Because HEZBALLAH STARTED IT!



The creation of Isreal is really the problem imo. HOW?


However that was not was I was asking and if you could get your head around the question without including religion you may well understand that the point I am trying to make really has nothing to do with any of that. You are just predjudiced by your own obsession with the bible, "Us Christians have to fight against the Muslim threat" just sounds so retarded to my ears. You couldn't possibly be more WRONG!!

Let me rephrase it for you.

Should anyone throw gasoline on a burning fire and expect it to go out?
Does America think it is helping the situation by choosing sides and then telling both sides we want peace ?
My question is about the ethics of the US not really about the Isreal situation.[/QUOTE]
IT IS NOT UNETHICAL TO AID IN SELF DEFENSE!

[Mark Bryan]

So therefore Isreal knows it is bombing civilians and not terrorists, how can that be classed as self defense ? Because HEZBALLAH STARTED IT!



The creation of Isreal is really the problem imo. HOW?


However that was not was I was asking and if you could get your head around the question without including religion you may well understand that the point I am trying to make really has nothing to do with any of that. You are just predjudiced by your own obsession with the bible, "Us Christians have to fight against the Muslim threat" just sounds so retarded to my ears. You couldn't possibly be more WRONG!!

Let me rephrase it for you.


Should anyone throw gasoline on a burning fire and expect it to go out?
Does America think it is helping the situation by choosing sides and then telling both sides we want peace ?
My question is about the ethics of the US not really about the Isreal situation.
IT IS NOT UNETHICAL TO AID IN SELF DEFENSE!

[thcbongman]

Because HEZBALLAH STARTED IT!


HOW?

You couldn't possibly be more WRONG!!

Let me rephrase it for you.


IT IS NOT UNETHICAL TO AID IN SELF DEFENSE!

That's the most illogical bullshit I ever read.

You equate terrorists and civilians as one as the same.

And apparently crossing borders is defined as self-defense.

Right :rolleyes:

Guess what? In America, if someone egged my car, I don't have the right to bash his head in. I'd go to prison if I did.

I don't see these standards applied to citizens of America, applied to Israel in anyway. The fact is Israel get special treatment from the United States.

America should take no sides, and not provide 60% of it's aid to military spending.

[psychocat]

So therefore Mark if there was a sniper in your neighbourhood I would be justified in calling in an airstrike to destroy your homes and kill everyone just to get my sniper?

If you believe that then imo you need some serious help.

[Bong30]

So therefore Mark if there was a sniper in your neighbourhood I would be justified in calling in an airstrike to destroy your homes and kill everyone just to get my sniper?

If you believe that then imo you need some serious help.
your hate for bush/America clouds your judgement

FOXNEWS.COM HOME > WORLD > THE MIDEAST
Israeli Commandos Raid Hezbollah Hideout in Baalbek Hospital
Wednesday, August 02, 2006

Photo Essays:â?¢Crisis in the Mideastâ?¢Israel, Hezbollah Trade Attacksâ?¢Qana AttacksSTORIES BACKGROUND LINKS
â?¢Israeli Commandos Raid Hezbollah Hideout in Baalbek Hospitalâ?¢Israel Intensifies Hezbollah Attacks Deeper Into Lebanon â?¢Tony Blair Calls for 'Alliance of Moderation' to Counter Mideast 'Arc of Extremism'â?¢An American in Beirut: No 'Human Predisposition to Craziness' Found Here â?¢Israeli Strike on Gaza Kills Twoâ?¢Bush Presses for United Nations Resolution to Respond to Mideast Crisisâ?¢Aid Convoys Caught in Air Raid Cross-Fire Despite Supposed 48-Hour Haltâ?¢Iranian Foreign Minister Calls for Immediate Cease-Fire
BOURJ AL-MULOUK, Lebanon â?? Israel poured up to 10,000 armored troops into south Lebanon Tuesday, and commandos raided a Hezbollah-run hospital and captured guerrillas during pitched battles deep in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a major escalation of the three-week-old war.

In the attack on the ancient city of Baalbek, about 80 miles north of Israel, commandos ferried in by helicopters fought Hezbollah guerrillas inside and around the hospital under cover of heavy airstrikes, witnesses said. At least seven people were killed in the city, they said. Israel said an unspecified number of guerrillas were captured and no soldiers were hurt.

â?¢ CountryWatch: Israel | Lebanon | Syria | Iran

The raid was the deepest ground attack on Lebanon since fighting started three weeks ago.

Hezbollah's rocket attacks into Israel, meanwhile, diminished. Hezbollah fired just 10 rockets across the border Tuesday and two early Wednesday, well below an average of about 100 a day since fighting began.

The ferocity of the battles in the Bekaa Valley and across southern Lebanon and the determination of the Israelis to keep fighting quelled expectations for an early cease-fire, although Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said an agreement on how to end the conflict was possible within days, not weeks




they went in On foot you fucking Tard... they didnt send in a air stike.

your hate your hate isclouding your judgement.


if we used your dumb logic... they would have just leveled the hospital.

they didnt...............cause your dumb

[Mark Bryan]

That's the most illogical bullshit I ever read. Really? Explain please!


You equate terrorists and civilians as one as the same.
WHERE?!

And apparently crossing borders is defined as self-defense.
In this case? YES!
Right :rolleyes:


Guess what? In America, if someone egged my car, I don't have the right to bash his head in. I'd go to prison if I did. Now you know how FUCKED UP the laws are! If he broke into your house and threatened to kill you and your family WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!


I don't see these standards applied to citizens of America, applied to Israel in anyway. The fact is Israel get special treatment from the United States.
What's wrong with that?

America should take no sides, and not provide 60% of it's aid to military spending.
You have a point here,George Washington himself said we shouldn't involve ourselves with foreign entanglements,I concede that,but at LEAST we're assistin' the RIGHT side! After all America (Joseph) and Israel (Judah) have an ancient relationship and Judah and Joseph are HALF brothers,so it's perfectly logical for families to aid one another.

[Mark Bryan]

So therefore Mark if there was a sniper in your neighbourhood I would be justified in calling in an airstrike to destroy your homes and kill everyone just to get my sniper?

If you believe that then imo you need some serious help.
You missed me ENTIRELY!

[Mark Bryan]

your hate for bush/America clouds your judgement

FOXNEWS.COM HOME > WORLD > THE MIDEAST
Israeli Commandos Raid Hezbollah Hideout in Baalbek Hospital
Wednesday, August 02, 2006

Photo Essays:â?¢Crisis in the Mideastâ?¢Israel, Hezbollah Trade Attacksâ?¢Qana AttacksSTORIES BACKGROUND LINKS
â?¢Israeli Commandos Raid Hezbollah Hideout in Baalbek Hospitalâ?¢Israel Intensifies Hezbollah Attacks Deeper Into Lebanon â?¢Tony Blair Calls for 'Alliance of Moderation' to Counter Mideast 'Arc of Extremism'â?¢An American in Beirut: No 'Human Predisposition to Craziness' Found Here â?¢Israeli Strike on Gaza Kills Twoâ?¢Bush Presses for United Nations Resolution to Respond to Mideast Crisisâ?¢Aid Convoys Caught in Air Raid Cross-Fire Despite Supposed 48-Hour Haltâ?¢Iranian Foreign Minister Calls for Immediate Cease-Fire
BOURJ AL-MULOUK, Lebanon â?? Israel poured up to 10,000 armored troops into south Lebanon Tuesday, and commandos raided a Hezbollah-run hospital and captured guerrillas during pitched battles deep in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a major escalation of the three-week-old war.

In the attack on the ancient city of Baalbek, about 80 miles north of Israel, commandos ferried in by helicopters fought Hezbollah guerrillas inside and around the hospital under cover of heavy airstrikes, witnesses said. At least seven people were killed in the city, they said. Israel said an unspecified number of guerrillas were captured and no soldiers were hurt.

â?¢ CountryWatch: Israel | Lebanon | Syria | Iran

The raid was the deepest ground attack on Lebanon since fighting started three weeks ago.

Hezbollah's rocket attacks into Israel, meanwhile, diminished. Hezbollah fired just 10 rockets across the border Tuesday and two early Wednesday, well below an average of about 100 a day since fighting began.

The ferocity of the battles in the Bekaa Valley and across southern Lebanon and the determination of the Israelis to keep fighting quelled expectations for an early cease-fire, although Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said an agreement on how to end the conflict was possible within days, not weeks




they went in On foot you fucking Tard... they didnt send in a air stike.

your hate your hate isclouding your judgement.


if we used your dumb logic... they would have just leveled the hospital.

they didnt...............cause your dumb
Now THIS I can agree with! I STRONGLY SUSPECT Psychocat is antisemitic! I wonder if he DENIES the holocaust! :rolleyes:

[psychocat]

[/QUOTE]they went in On foot you fucking Tard... they didnt send in a air stike.

your hate your hate isclouding your judgement.


if we used your dumb logic... they would have just leveled the hospital.

they didnt...............cause your dumb[/QUOTE]

Try again.

You're gonna tell me thats all the actions taken ??
So NO airstrikes took place?

You couldn't be more wrong.

Israeli leaders said the military would press on with air and ground assaults until Palestinian militants released Corporal Gilad Shalit, a soldier abducted in a cross-border raid on June 25, and halted rocket fire on Israeli cities.
I think if you check your time line "Tard" (how pathetic is that lol) you will find that isreal has been bombing using those things called planes thats an airstrike :rolleyes: .

As for the logic you can thank Mark for that.:thumbsup:
Please read the posts before commenting because otherwise you just come off as a complete retard. :D

Try doing your own research instead of just watching Fox.

Sourced from Toronto Radio

TORONTO/AM 640 TORONTO - Israel's prime minister is expressing ``great sorrow' for airstrikes that killed up to 57 people in a southern Lebanese village -- including no less than 34 children.
But he says Hezbollah guerrillas have used the area to launch rockets.

And he reportedly told US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice he needs 10 to 14 days to finish the offensive in Lebanon.

In an emergency session of the UN Security Council, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan condemned the attacks, saying an end to the violence needs to come immediately.

So Bong30 tell me once again how it's all a nice clean surgical operation that kills only terrorists ?
34 children dead.

BTW accusing someone of antisemitism is pretty strong just cause they don't agree with you.
Funny that, but somehow expected , name calling and saying that I hate Jews or whatever is just your attempt to avoid being faced with the ugly truth.

PS I hate everyone who believes that violence is ever the answer.

[psychocat]

bout airstrikes against funeral processions?

http://english.people.com.cn/200608/09/eng20060809_291220.html

[Mark Bryan]

As for the logic you can thank Mark for that.:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
WHAT LOGIC?
BTW accusing someone of antisemitism is pretty strong just cause they don't agree with you. Did I say ACCUSE?! NO! I said I SUSPECT antisemiticism! GET IT RIGHT!

Funny that, but somehow expected , name calling and saying that I hate Jews or whatever is just your attempt to avoid being faced with the ugly truth. What,that the Jews deserve what they get and it's wrong to support them? Now you sound like a LIBERAL!


PS I hate everyone who believes that violence is ever the answer. LOOK DUDE! Israel pulled out of Lebanon back in 2000,I saw the tanks and jeeps pull outta there on TV myself! That gave HEZBULLY and NOSTRILLA time to regroup and rearm,to which the WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION which were smuggled out of Iraq into Iran and Syria and eventually into Lebanon to be used against Israel! When they pulled outta Gaza Hamas set up rocket launchers to fire into Jewish settlements in Israel! Bill Clinton and Madeline HALFbright gave Nuclear technology to China and North Korea! That's YOUR way of handlin' enemies who want to destroy us! You're INSANE! Israel was RIGHT to go in and knock out Saddam's nuclear arsenal back in '81 or we would've LOST the FIRST Gulf War in '91! YOU have to understand AND LEARN that the BEST way to survive and defend yourself would be a pre-emptive strike! The best defense is ALWAYS a good OFFENSE! That's what we need to learn and remember! DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU DEAD! I don't know how else to break it down to ya! Look at what happened to France (Reuben)when they negotiated with Hitler! If we hadn't dropped the bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we'd be conquered by Japan and possibly Germany! I'll let you think on that!

[psychocat]

Point 1 very very important point,, I am in no way religious , I do not hate neither jew catholic muslim mormom or whatever, I do however think ALL religions are a form of insanity.

Liberal lmao oh boy not that old chestnut.You will have to do better than name calling.

The atomic bomb being dropped once was the biggest criminal act ever,to do it twice was inhumane. Who would you fear someone who has never dropped the bomb or some sick fuck who had used it twice?

America didn't join the fight in Europe till it was almost over, you can thank the Russians for the massive sacrifice they made that Europe wasn't ove-run.
That and the fact that Hitler didn't learn from Napoleon.The Americans like to think they won the war but to be honest THEY DIDN'T !

So what you're saying is that it's ok to attack children because you may kill a few terrorists?
Occupation of a country by another country is allowed and encouraged (sending bombs via brit airports) if it's a freind doing the invading like with Isreal and Lebanon and intervention if you're not a freind like with Iraq and Kuwait.
How about when Saddam and the CIA worked together ? if Saddam had invaded Kuwait then would he have gotten help instead of hassle?

And bombing funerals now thats so fucking right isn't it?

Please try to get your head out of the bodily orifice it presently occupies.

[Bong30]

Point 1 very very important point,, I am in no way religious , I do not hate neither jew catholic muslim mormom or whatever, I do however think ALL religions are a form of insanity.

Liberal lmao oh boy not that old chestnut.You will have to do better than name calling.

The atomic bomb being dropped once was the biggest criminal act ever,to do it twice was inhumane. Who would you fear someone who has never dropped the bomb or some sick fuck who had used it twice?

America didn't join the fight in Europe till it was almost over, you can thank the Russians for the massive sacrifice they made that Europe wasn't ove-run.
That and the fact that Hitler didn't learn from Napoleon.The Americans like to think they won the war but to be honest THEY DIDN'T !

So what you're saying is that it's ok to attack children because you may kill a few terrorists?
Occupation of a country by another country is allowed and encouraged (sending bombs via brit airports) if it's a freind doing the invading like with Isreal and Lebanon and intervention if you're not a freind like with Iraq and Kuwait.
How about when Saddam and the CIA worked together ? if Saddam had invaded Kuwait then would he have gotten help instead of hassle?

And bombing funerals now thats so fucking right isn't it?

Please try to get your head out of the bodily orifice it presently occupies.

PC if the Hezbullah leader was the the funeral......let the bomb Fly.


TELL THEM TO PUT A FUCKING UNIFORM ON..... Get away from the kids and women..............


You hate Jews, hate america, Hate Bush... it clouds your judgement.

[psychocat]

You are obsessed with what you think I hate.

Because Isreal is imo wrong you equate that to my hating Jews. Wrong
Because I condemn America for arming any country hostile to another I hate Americans. Wrong again
I dislike the US goverments attempts to manipulate world politics so I hate Bush. Guess what you're wrong again.

I think ALL RELIGIONS are madness when taken to extremes.

As for America, I'm not really sure what to make of it to be honest, the people I've spoken to on the whole seem reasonable enough folk, with exceptions of course.I don't really know enough about the place to make to many judgements but the politicians have me worried.
Bush is simply a figurehead.

I believe you have the right to live as you see fit as long as you're harming nobody whatever you choose.

But most off all I believe you are completely mad if you think you can in any way justify the murder of any civilians.

[PigSnout]

Guess what? In America, if someone egged my car, I don't have the right to bash his head in. I'd go to prison if I did.
But if that same person said they wanted to kill you and your family and had made good on those threats and you used self defense then no you wouldnt go to prison.

[psychocat]

But if that same person said they wanted to kill you and your family and had made good on those threats and you used self defense then no you wouldnt go to prison.

And I'm sure that if you used a fucking big bomb and took out half the neighbourhood in so doing, the local police chief would give you a medal.

Get real man if you killed innocent bystanders while defending yourself do you really think you're going anywhere but prison?

[paparose]

First off, if the U.S. wasn't supplying Israel some other country would. Probably France.........after all, they gave Israel nuclear technology.

Second, if they weren't supplied so heavily they would be swarmed by their loving neighbors

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

wrong wrong wrong..
This week, USA started shiping bombs to Israel from Incirlik airbase Adana, Turkey.

[paparose]

So would you say that the reaction to recent events was justified ?
What France has to do with this is a moot point really since I was asking about America not any other country,I don't believe anyone should be supplying either side as you are simply profitting from misery.


I can tell you that that there are so many similarities between the Milosevic regime and the regime in Isreal. Both have intention of ethnically cleansing their Mulsim population either through military or economic means. Both tried to restict the freedom of these people for example by restricting the freedom of movement or as was the case in Serbia the right to work. Both regimes have showed racist attitudes towards their Muslim population. The only difference is that USA dared to confront Serbia over the genocide in Bosnia , whereas it failed to confront Isreal over its treatment of arabs in Palestine.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

well said

I am very impressed by the knowledge you have, at the boards mostly people talk without any supported info, they say what they heard from others, you my friend, you know what you are talking about.
I am glad we are in the same boat on this subject.

[paparose]

Howdy psychocat,

I voted yes,in yer poll..not only should we supply Israel munitions,but I hope that we have offered to provide something that they ain't got..a good ol' fashioned carpet-bombing with B-52's..it worked dang good at making thousands of Iraqi soldiers surrender and it's good at collapsing tunnel networks and bunkers too. The AC-130 Spectre gun-ships and A-10's,would be great for mopping up.

You see..there won't be a cease-fire that lasts more than 24 hours,until we or the Israeli's,destroy hezbollah. There can be no cease-fire,worth the paper it's written on,till Nasrallah and his minions,are blown to bits.

Have a good one ...
I hope those planes carpet bombs you and your family you red neck

[paparose]

what about the rocket attacks? people are dieing on bolth side CC.

why dont you guys say shit about Iran getting arms for Hezbullah?

cause you are brain washe dby the left leaning media........... thats why.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276392,00.html


8 killed in rocket attack on Haifa



(VIDEO) Attack on north resumes: Rockets fired by Hizbullah terrorists from Lebanon land in Haifa; eight killed by direct hit on train depot. Worker: The truth is that last night (Saturday) I had a very bad feeling that this time it (rocket fire) would reach us. Today my premonition came true. Nahariya, Kiryat Bialik also targeted
Ahiya Raved



VIDEO - Israel Police said eight people were killed by a direct rocket strike on a train depot in Haifaâ??s Shemen Beach. Magen David Adom paramedics treated dozens of people wounded in the attack and evacuated them to hospitals in the city.



The names of the victims were released for publication:



Reuvan Levi, 43 year-old from Kiryat Ata

Danis Lapidos, 24 year-old from Kiryat Yam

Shmuel Ben Shimon, 41 year-old from Yokneam Ilit

Nisim Elhariri, 43 year-old from Kiryat Ata

Asa'el Damti, 39 year-old from Kiryat Yam

David Feldman, 28 year-old from Kiryat Yam

Sholomi Mansura, 35 year-old from Nahariya

Rafi Hazan, 30 year-old from Haifa




The IDF has begun an initial investigation of the incident. Sources in the IDF told Ynet that Hizbullah used, for the first time, a different type of rocket against Haifa, the Fajr model. The rocket has a 40 kilometer range, and can carry a larger amount of explosives than the Katyusha.

why dont you write the names of dead arabs down, u cant? why? they are not human, not worth to think about? are they animals? too many to write down? say a thousand already dead?
getting bombed every day for decades is an usual part of life in that area while the rich jews are living behind the safety of their powerful military.
now jews lost eight people what a tragedy?

I am not arab but I am with the weak and right, Israel is powerful and mean. right is right wrong is wrong, explain a 6 year old kid he/she would be with the innocents cause kids dont think evilish, they are pure untill they got brainwashed.


Choose a side, but remember there are not two rights.

[psychocat]

For me it's a simple choice and it isn't Isreals choice or Irans or Lebanons or anyone elses, it's Americas choice.

America has to ask itself are we right in supplying enemies with firepower or should we be doing more to try to enforce peace on both sides?

You can't push off responsibility for your own actions by pointing at another and saying "but they do it"

Since when did two wrongs make a right ?

If the might of America and Europe was concentrated on peace instead of commerce (bombs and planes don't come cheap) we might actualy get somewhere.
If the US is so interested in justice then why did they stand by and watch the genocide in Rhwanda

You may not know this but the U.S. is BILLIONS of dollars behind in U.N. dues. BILLIONS! Yet when the U.N. went to the U.S. to ask for the use of equipment essential to helping the situation in Rhwanda- the U.S. only offered to "lease" it for a high price.
They owed BILLIONS of dollars to the UN yet they can't loan them equipment to save lives. Why?
Because Rhwanda offers nothing in return. There was no benefit to the US going there. It's only lives? right?

[Psycho4Bud]

For me it's a simple choice and it isn't Isreals choice or Irans or Lebanons or anyone elses, it's Americas choice.

America has to ask itself are we right in supplying enemies with firepower or should we be doing more to try to enforce peace on both sides?

You can't push off responsibility for your own actions by pointing at another and saying "but they do it"

Since when did two wrongs make a right ?

If the might of America and Europe was concentrated on peace instead of commerce (bombs and planes don't come cheap) we might actualy get somewhere.
If the US is so interested in justice then why did they stand by and watch the genocide in Rhwanda

You may not know this but the U.S. is BILLIONS of dollars behind in U.N. dues. BILLIONS! Yet when the U.N. went to the U.S. to ask for the use of equipment essential to helping the situation in Rhwanda- the U.S. only offered to "lease" it for a high price.
They owed BILLIONS of dollars to the UN yet they can't loan them equipment to save lives. Why?
Because Rhwanda offers nothing in return. There was no benefit to the US going there. It's only lives? right?

This is why CLINTON ignored it:

PARIS A former French soldier said Friday that he saw French troops training Rwandan militias in 1992, two years before those same civilian militias took a leading role in a genocide in the tiny central African country.

Rwandan officials, including President Paul Kagame, have long accused France of training the militias that helped carry out the 1994 slaughter of about 500,000 people, most of them from the country's Tutsi minority. The genocide was orchestrated by a government of extremists from Rwanda's Hutu majority.

The French government, which had close ties with the extremist government, has denied training Rwandan civilians, and the Defense Ministry refused to comment Friday on the allegations made by Thierry Prungnaud, a former noncommissioned officer in the French Army.

"In 1992, I saw French military members training Rwandan civilian militias to shoot a gun," Prungnaud told France Culture radio. He said he had been sent to Rwanda that year to train the presidential guard.

"I am categorical. I saw it."

The training session took place in a national park closed to the public, according to Prungnaud. He said he was not surprised by what he saw, since he was unaware of the consequences. "To me, it seemed normal," he said.

"The only time that I saw them, there were about 30 militants being taught how to shoot in Akagera park," in eastern Rwanda, an area he said at the time was closed to the public and booby-trapped to keep unwanted visitors away.

Prungnaud said he was able to identify the men as civilians because members of the Rwandan military are always in uniform. He identified the trainers as members of the French Navy's 1st Parachute Regiment.

Although he stayed in Rwanda only for a brief period, he said, "I assume that the training continued."

In February, six Rwandans brought charges of "complicity in a genocide" against the French military at the Army Tribunal in Paris.

In a speech last year commemorating the 10th anniversary of the genocide, Kagame, a Tutsi, accused France of complicity in the genocide, saying the French "consciously trained and armed" Rwandan soldiers and militias and "knew they were going to perpetrate a genocide." The French Foreign Ministry called the accusations "grave and contrary to the truth."

Kagame led the Rwandan Patriotic Front rebels who overthrew the Hutu extremist regime and ended the genocide.

PARIS A former French soldier said Friday that he saw French troops training Rwandan militias in 1992, two years before those same civilian militias took a leading role in a genocide in the tiny central African country.

Rwandan officials, including President Paul Kagame, have long accused France of training the militias that helped carry out the 1994 slaughter of about 500,000 people, most of them from the country's Tutsi minority. The genocide was orchestrated by a government of extremists from Rwanda's Hutu majority.

The French government, which had close ties with the extremist government, has denied training Rwandan civilians, and the Defense Ministry refused to comment Friday on the allegations made by Thierry Prungnaud, a former noncommissioned officer in the French Army.

"In 1992, I saw French military members training Rwandan civilian militias to shoot a gun," Prungnaud told France Culture radio. He said he had been sent to Rwanda that year to train the presidential guard
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/22/news/rwanda.php

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[Mark Bryan]

[QUOTE]Liberal lmao oh boy not that old chestnut.You will have to do better than name calling. I called you a lib because you SOUND like one based on MY observation,not an insult.


The atomic bomb being dropped once was the biggest criminal act ever,to do it twice was inhumane. Who would you fear someone who has never dropped the bomb or some sick fuck who had used it twice?
THAT my friend was NOT an easy choice,or even a GOOD one,but it was NECESSARY or casualties would've been much LARGER!

America didn't join the fight in Europe till it was almost over, you can thank the Russians for the massive sacrifice they made that Europe wasn't ove-run.
That and the fact that Hitler didn't learn from Napoleon.The Americans like to think they won the war but to be honest THEY DIDN'T ! Not by themselves,but with Britain and Russia's help they did.


So what you're saying is that it's ok to attack children because you may kill a few terrorists?Didn't I mention droppin' leaflets TWICE?! Why do you not address that? And FURTHERMORE SHOW me where I advocate killin' children and STOP TWISTIN' MY WORDS!

And bombing funerals now thats so fucking right isn't it?
I must've MISSED that one!
Please try to get your head out of the bodily orifice it presently occupies. CHEAP SHOT for someone who DESPARATELY wants to cling to his belief when he loses an argument!:rolleyes:

[Mark Bryan]

You hate Jews, hate america, Hate Bush... it clouds your judgement.

My thoughts EXACTLY! He NEVER considers what Israel's goin' through!

[Bong30]

Mark Thanks............ we do see eye to eye on many issues.

[Mark Bryan]

I believe you are completely mad if you think you can in any way justify the murder of any civilians.
This is the THIRD time I'm addressin'this Israel dropped leaflets,made phone calls and got on TV and radio to WARN the citizens to EVACUATE!
How can you sit there and call it justification of murderin' citizens! ANSWER THAT ONE!:mad: There are TWO reasons why they're bein' killed,ONE some of them are not listenin' and PROBABLY LOYAL to these SICK fanatics! The OTHER reason bein' they're bein' held HOSTAGE and told they woyld be SHOT if they tried to escape! You just don't consider that do you! WHY do you defend the ENEMY and not Israel? HM?!

[psychocat]

I called you a lib because you SOUND like one based on MY observation,not an insult.:
No political affiliations, my last vote went to The Monster Raving Loony Party.:thumbsup:


Not by themselves,but with Britain and Russia's help they did.

Hitler pretty much defeated himself by attacking Russia in winter time , the same mistake Napoleon made.:confused: But prior to that the only place defending Europe was GB. :dance:
The Americans joined the fight in Europe when their goverment saw lots of weapon "SALES" and profit.:mad:

Thats why they didn't intervene in Rhwanda remember,, no money to be made.:mad: :mad:


CHEAP SHOT for someone who DESPARATELY wants to cling to his belief when he loses an argument!:rolleyes:

Simply suggesting that your view of the world is somewhat out of focus and putting forward my theory as to why that might be. :D
Not losing anything since I am simply putting an opinion, that IMO you are blind to anything but the propoganda BS of you're own media and beliefs.

[Mark Bryan]

Mark Thanks............ we do see eye to eye on many issues.:thumbsup: ANYTIME!

[Mark Bryan]

No political affiliations, my last vote went to The Monster Raving Loony Party.:thumbsup: Sounds like you voted for Flip-Flop Kerry!




Hitler pretty much defeated himself by attacking Russia in winter time , the same mistake Napoleon made.:confused: NOW I'm startin' to agree wit'cha!:thumbsup:
The Americans joined the fight in Europe when their goverment saw lots of weapon "SALES" and profit.:mad: Guess who was behind THAT one! The ILLUMINATI!


Thats why they didn't intervene in Rhwanda remember,, no money to be made.:mad: :mad: I can understand this,they're POOR! Thanks to the didctatorship and the ILLUMINATI AGENTS who put'em in power! If it were ME,I'd encourage the people to rise up and kill the dictators and liberate the poor and encourage the new CAPITALIST REPUBLIC government to grow hemp to replace the oil and corruption. HEMP FOR VICTORY!




Simply suggesting that your view of the world is somewhat out of focus and putting forward my theory as to why that might be. :D
Not losing anything since I am simply putting an opinion, that IMO you are blind to anything but the propoganda BS of you're own media and beliefs.What,Fox News? I'll admit I listen to Newsradio 790 WNIS www.wnis.com You'll see the lineup at the top on Mon.-Fri. MY favorite is funnyman Tony Macrini! The rest are O.K. but not as good as he. Macrini's mornin' news team come on at 6-10 AM Eastern Time Mon.-Fri.Believe me he's HILARIOUS!

[Torog]

I hope those planes carpet bombs you and your family you red neck

Howdy paparose,

Dang...I guess ya don't like my idea's,huh ? I'm just stating an obvious and productive,addition to the strategy and tactics,being employed to root out hezbollah,that the Israeli Air Force,doesn't have at this time. This would also be a great opportunity,to test out smart mines on hezbollah, and smart cluster-bomblets too.

You see...there's a given in this conflict..the arab world won't rest until Israel is destroyed. Period. I reckon that alot of europe,feels the same way..the Jews will not allow themselves to be slaughtered(again),no matter how much you feel that they should or that they deserve it,if all else fails,then Israel will exercise the Samson Option..mutual assured destruction..the nukes will start flying. For instance,if 100,000 iranian troops,begin to invade Israel,Israel will more than likely have to start using tac-nukes on em,because they don't have B-52's,A-10's and enuff AC-130 gunships.

Have a good one ...

[Bong30]

Howdy paparose,

Dang...I guess ya don't like my idea's,huh ? I'm just stating an obvious and productive,addition to the strategy and tactics,being employed to root out hezbollah,that the Israeli Air Force,doesn't have at this time. This would also be a great opportunity,to test out smart mines on hezbollah, and smart cluster-bomblets too.

You see...there's a given in this conflict..the arab world won't rest until Israel is destroyed. Period. I reckon that alot of europe,feels the same way..the Jews will not allow themselves to be slaughtered(again),no matter how much you feel that they should or that they deserve it,if all else fails,then Israel will exercise the Samson Option..mutual assured destruction..the nukes will start flying. For instance,if 100,000 iranian troops,begin to invade Israel,Israel will more than likely have to start using tac-nukes on em,because they don't have B-52's,A-10's and enuff AC-130 gunships.

Have a good one ...

Torog....................My Family would fight to the death defending your family... Thats what Americans Do.

Paperose is a fuck stain on my sheets.............


Piss, GS, Paper, Rest of the left wing nut jobs..........go to lebanon and fight for hezbullah..........you love them so much.

[Mark Bryan]

Howdy paparose,

You see...there's a given in this conflict..the arab world won't rest until Israel is destroyed. if all else fails,then Israel will exercise the Samson Option..mutual assured destruction..the nukes will start flying. For instance,if 100,000 iranian troops,begin to invade Israel,Israel will more than likely have to start using tac-nukes on em,because they don't have B-52's,A-10's and enuff AC-130 gunships.

Have a good one ...

Ya make good points there Torog!

[Bong30]

Ya make good points there Torog!

like usual.............

[KNVB]

All I can say is FUCK ISRAEL. I find that while I disagree with what Hezbollah does in the way of attacking, kidnapping and other terrorist activities, I am silently rooting for them. While America spends BILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of lives to build a democracy in Iraq, they are standing by and supporting Israel to OBLITERATE a moderate, pro-US/pro-Western democracy. Americans should be ashamed for being led by the nose by these nutty zionists.

[PigSnout]

I can tell you that that there are so many similarities between the Milosevic regime and the regime in Isreal. Both have intention of ethnically cleansing their Mulsim population either through military or economic means.

Where do you get your information? Hezbollah wants to wipe out Israel. They have stated so. Israel in no way has stated or shown by its actions it wants to wipe out Muslims.

[LegallyBlind]

I have not read every post in this thread, but all of you bitching about Israel do you realize that Hezbollah started this war. Israel has every right to fight back I support Israel, and I support the supplying of Israel with weapons. I hope that they kill as many terrorists as they can and teach people like Hezbollah that if they fuck with us there gonna get the balls cut off and rammed up their ass so the next time they shit they'll be shitting all over their balls.

[Mark Bryan]

All I can say is FUCK ISRAEL. I find that while I disagree with what Hezbollah does in the way of attacking, kidnapping and other terrorist activities, I am silently rooting for them. While America spends BILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of lives to build a democracy in Iraq, they are standing by and supporting Israel to OBLITERATE a moderate, pro-US/pro-Western democracy. Americans should be ashamed for being led by the nose by these nutty zionists.
You're rootin' for people who want to cut your head off! How SUICIDAL is that? Yes there are lebanese christians who are pro western AND pro Judah! But the HEZBALLSWEATERS are DICKLESS NUTSQUIRTS who are usin their own people as human shields! THAT'S why innocent people are dyin'NOT Judah's military! You rouse up a lion,he's gonna RISE UP and FIGHT BACK! Let's see YOU poke a stick in a young lion and see what he does! HE'LL RIP YOU TO SHREDS AND SHIT YOU OUT YOU ANTISEMITIC GLAZED UP CINNAMON ROLL!

[Mark Bryan]

I have not read every post in this thread, but all of you bitching about Israel do you realize that Hezbollah started this war. Israel has every right to fight back I support Israel, and I support the supplying of Israel with weapons. I hope that they kill as many terrorists as they can and teach people like Hezbollah that if they fuck with us there gonna get the balls cut off and rammed up their ass so the next time they shit they'll be shitting all over their balls.

I'M WITH YOU DUDE!:thumbsup: Judah is like a LION'S WHELP! His hand shall be on the neck of his enemies! Like a lion,he crouches down (lays low) WHO shall ROUSE HIM UP? Genesis;49:9 is indeed happenin' as of late and Hezballah (canaanites?)has been scratched up bad by the great (BLUE) Lion Pharez/Judah (Israel) Zarah (his twin brother) is the RED lion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg Notice the star of David and the crown on top!

[psychocat]

Religious nuts of all persuasions are the problem, whatever thier religion may be.
IMO Bush and his obsessiom with a "Christian country" are as mad as the suicide bombers you talk of.

[Bong30]

Jake you are a Brain washed Socialist........

Iran, Is arming, Funding, recruiting, supplying, hezbullah............. you wont see the other side Cause you are Brain DEAD............Commie, that Hates Bush so Bad you hate America. KInda Pisses me off.


Just go Mod your site...........

[psychocat]

America has to realise that by taking sides they are always going to make an enemy of someone,I believe America wants to see itself as the saviour of the world but maybe we don't all want to be American.
I believe also that past interference by the US has led us to where we are today, the Taliban weren't always the enemy and at one point the US even aided Saddam Hussain. In my eyes America has shown itself to be a very fickle freind and I certainly don't trust your goverment or it's far right Christian views.
Somebody needs to save us from the pompous arrogant morons that believe diversity is a bad thing.
A man who believes force is the only option in't much of a diplomat.

I have one question , since when did might = right?
Just because America has the biggest gun doesn't give it the right to tell others how to live.

[Bong30]

PC, yes and at a 4 way stop, the one with the biggest truck goes first.

You are starting to see the light....................:)

[yabatab]

America supplying or not supplying arms to Israel is not going to make a difference.

Not only does Israel produce its own assault rifle (the Galil) and other infantry weapons such as the Uzi machine-pistol, but its own MBT, the rather characteristic Merkavah. There's also the Kfir multi-purpose jet aircraft.

Most of the US-made hardware you see is superannuated stuff like the M-109 armoured howitzer and the M-113 APC.

[graymatter]

There's three things I got out of this war.

1) Israel needs new thinking... sending overwhelming force in response to a small incursion lets its enemies know they can tap into that at any time and gain political, if not tactical, advantage.

2) Hezbollah will become less militant once it gains acceptance as a political presence in Lebanon.

3) Iran earned a draw in this war.

As for arms dealing, it's not like the U.S. government can or will count guns and bullets. Like drugs, there's a highly profitable black market in arms dealing.

[Mark Bryan]

It's not our business.
It's not our war.
It's not our place to sell weapons to either side. As far as George Washington sayin' we shouldn't be involved in foreign entanglements is concerned,you have a point,BUT,now that we ARE involved,without our help,Israel would be annihilated.

[Mark Bryan]

Religious nuts of all persuasions are the problem, whatever thier religion may be.
IMO Bush and his obsessiom with a "Christian country" are as mad as the suicide bombers you talk of. Bush you know is a member of the Skull& Bones,so on THAT note,you have a point. As far as christianity is concerned,you have to take into account the infiltration of Roman paganism of christianity by the Council of Nicea,emperor Constantine,the Inquisition and of course the Crusades! Even YOU have to admit that the Christian culture has been infiltrated by pagans over the centuries,that's why christianity is hated so much by non christian elements of society,but Christianity in its purest form (without paganism) is a true religion (or relationship with God which includes the cannabis/psychedelic culture) and so when true christian soldiers fight,they fight for freedom and justice,the rest is pure paganism and politics.

[Nylo]

Jesus was a political activist.
Not the son of God.
He preached Peace, Love, and Friendship just like John Lennon did.
They both ended up dead.
Amazing, huh?


Jesus was like John Lenon? :D c'monnn man, you can't reason everything in the world to death. Believe what you want about the facets of Christianity, but the effect of Jesus on the flow of world history in no way even comes close to John Lenon. Equal rights, abolition of slavery, red cross charity in parts of the world sane people wouldn't dare step on; I'd say that's pretty damn amazing, myself.

But on topic. Of course Israel is no angel. But neither is any one country in the rest of the world. Israel should have been given every tool neccessary to root out Hezbollah. I think the only thing we'll agree on is that the United States either fully support them, or fully push for a ceasfire; the double-talk was retarded.

[Mark Bryan]

And Mark, just because we started helping doesn't mean we should keep helping. It's time for the Jews to fight for themselves.
If they're overwhelmed,then we SHOULD help'em!

[Dizz-Oh!]

Is anyone aware that hundreds of thousands of orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel, because it is forbidden in the Torah?

Thousands of Palestinian AND Israeli mothers march through Jerusalem in protest of the ILLEGAL Occupation of Gaza and West Bank and it gets ZERO coverage in U.S. media?

Does the term Hate Week ring a bell with anyone?

Israel is a Zionist state, not a Jewish state. It's flag is the seal of solomon for christ's sake. Literally, for christ's sake.

Why do Americans think dropping bombs on women on children is noble? Not for the same reason suicide bombers feel what they do is noble. One is born out of Hate, the other out of desperation.

[psychocat]

Well said Dizz.

[Mark Bryan]

Is anyone aware that hundreds of thousands of orthodox Jews oppose the existence of Israel, because it is forbidden in the Torah? Can you quote the chapter and verse so I can see for myself?


Thousands of Palestinian AND Israeli mothers march through Jerusalem in protest of the ILLEGAL Occupation of Gaza and West Bank and it gets ZERO coverage in U.S. media? As Michael Savage would say,Liberalism is a MENTAL DISORDER!




Israel is a Zionist state, not a Jewish state. It's flag is the seal of solomon for christ's sake. Literally, for christ's sake. Actually,it's the Star of David of the Pharez branch of Judah. http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/redhand.html Here's the Zarah branch,Pharez's TWIN brother! Genesis;38:27-30


Why do Americans think dropping bombs on women on children is noble? Not for the same reason suicide bombers feel what they do is noble. One is born out of Hate, the other out of desperation.
So you say we're born out of hate? Let's see you prove that IF you're up to it!

[psychocat]

Mark I believe your own hatred taints all that you say.

[Mark Bryan]

Mark I believe your own hatred taints all that you say.
Hatred of WHAT?! LIBERALISM?! I believe you're determination to turn aroun and discredit everything you hear shows ME you're takin' the side of the ENEMY rather than takin' the side of Judah! It is written: I will BLESS those who bless you (Israel/Judah) and CURSE those who curse you! Here's PROOF of that! When Pharaoh tried to DROWN them, HE and his army drowned! When he tried to kill the FIRSTBORN of Israel,all firstborn Egyptians and livestock were SLAIN! When Hitler tried to either burn or shoot them, HE HIMSELF shot himself in the head and ordered his body BURNED to a crisp! When the Jews were surrounded by concrete walls and barb wire fences, SO WAS BERLIN! GET IT NOW?! Don't curse the Jews or Israelites! It's that simple!

[PigSnout]

The Americans joined the fight in Europe when their goverment saw lots of weapon "SALES" and profit.:mad:
Ha Ha Ha What an absurd statement. Americas was attacked by Japan. Japan and Germany were the bad guys. So that made it Japan and Germany (and depending on what day it was Italy) vs just about everyone else.
You keep making errors about history that only an uneducated, uninformed person would make. Or then again maybe it's because you are anti-American.
Go sell your rewrite of history to the fantasy channel.

[Mark Bryan]

Ha Ha Ha What an absurd statement. Americas was attacked by Japan. Japan and Germany were the bad guys. So that made it Japan and Germany (and depending on what day it was Italy) vs just about everyone else.
You keep making errors about history that only an uneducated, uninformed person would make. Or then again maybe it's because you are anti-American.
Go sell your rewrite of history to the fantasy channel.

Tell me about it! Even when America is ATTACKED,he tries to imply it's OUR fault!

[eg420ne]

You mean that Pearl Harbor event that our government knew in-advance...just like dickcheneys pearl harbor event

PEARL HARBOR
MOTHER

OF ALL

CONSPIRACIES


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
"...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." ARMY BOARD, 1944
Japanese language version of this page
President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by --

1. denying intelligence to Hawaii (HI)
2. on November 27 and later, misleading the commanders into thinking negotiations with Japan were continuing to prevent them from realizing the war was on
3. having false information sent to HI about the location of the Japanese carrier fleet.

BACKGROUND
1904 - The Japanese destroyed the Russian navy in a surprise attack in
undeclared war. 1932 - In the Grand Joint Army-Navy Exercises, 152 aircraft carrier planes caught the defenders of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. It was a Sunday.
1938 - Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born airstrike from the USS Saratoga successfully against Pearl Harbor in another exercise. 1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.
7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished. 11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.
11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424) March 1941 - FDR sold munitions and convoyed them to belligerents in Europe -- both acts of war and both violations of international law -- the Lend-Lease Act.
23 Jun 1941 - Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward. 14 August - At the Atlantic Conference, Churchill noted the "astonishing depth of Roosevelt's intense desire for war." Churchill cabled his cabinet "(FDR) obviously was very determined that they should come in."


18 October - diary entry by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes: "For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CODES
Purple Code - the top Japanese diplomatic machine cipher which used automatic telephone switches to separately and differently encipher each character sent. It was cracked by the Army Signal Intelligence Service (331 men). J-19 was the main Japanese diplomatic code book. This columnar code was cracked.
Coral Machine Cipher or JNA-20 was a simplified version of Purple used by Naval attaches. Only one message deciphered prior to Pearl Harbor has been declassified. AD or Administrative Code wrongly called Admiralty Code was an old four character transposition code used for personnel matters. No important messages were sent in this weak code. Introduced Nov 1938, it was seldom used after Dec 1940.
Magic - the security designation given to all decoded Japanese diplomatic messages. It's hard not to conclude with historians like Charles Bateson that "Magic standing alone points so irresistibly to the Pearl Harbor attack that it is inconceivable anybody could have failed to forecast the Japanese move." The NSA reached the same conclusion in 1955. Ultra - the security designation for decoded military messages.


JN-25 - The Japanese Fleet's Cryptographic System, a.k.a. 5 number code (Sample). JN stands for Japanese Navy, introduced 1 June 1939. This was a very simple old-type code book system used by the American Army and Navy in 1898 and abandoned in 1917 because it was insecure. Version A has a dictionary of 5,600 numbers, words and phrases, each given as a five figure number. These were super-enciphered by addition to random numbers contained in a second code book. The dictionary was only changed once before PH on Dec 1, 1940, to a slightly larger version B but the random book was changed every 3 to 6 months- last on Aug 1. The Japanese blundered away the code when they introduced JN25-B by continuing to use, for 2 months, random books that had been previously solved by the Allies. That was the equivalent of handing over the JN-25B dictionary. It was child's play for the Navy group OP-20-G (738 men whose primary responsibility was Japanese naval codes) to reconstruct the exposed dictionary. In 1994 the NSA published that JN-25B was completely cracked in December 1940. In January 1941 the US gave Britain two JN-25B code books with keys and techniques for deciphering. Churchill wrote "From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams."(GRAND ALLIANCE p 598) The official US Navy statement on JN-25B is the NAVAL SECURITY GROUP HISTORY TO WORLD WAR II prepared by Captain J. Holtwick in June 1971, page 398: "By 1 December 1941 we had the code solved to a readable extent." Chief of Navy codebreaking Safford reported that during 1941 "The Navy COMINT team did a thorough job on the Japanese Navy with no help from the Army."(SRH-149) The first paragraph of the Congressional Report Exhibit 151 says the US was "currently" (instantly) reading JN-25B and exchanging the "translations" with the British prior to Pearl Harbor.
The top Navy codebreaker wrote in Cryptologia, July 1982: "So far as inherent security was concerned, JN-25B was little better than the ciphers used by Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar. The vocabulary was in Japanese - supplemented by Chinese characters - and the difficulties of written Japanese afforded more security and occasioned more difficulty than the crypto-system."
The entire Pearl Harbor scheme was laid out in this code. In 1979 the NSA released 2,413 JN-25 orders of the 26,581 intercepted by US between Sept 1 and Dec 4, 1941. The NSA says "We know now that they contained important details concerning the existence, organization, objective, and even the whereabouts of the Pearl Harbor Strike Force." (Parker, PH Revisited p 21) Of the over thousand radio messages sent by Tokyo to the attack fleet, only 20 are in the National Archives. All messages to the attack fleet were sent several times, at least one message was sent every odd hour of the day and each had a special serial number. Starting in early November 1941 when the attack fleet assembled and started receiving radio messages, OP-20-G stayed open 24 hours a day and the "First Team" of codebreakers worked on JN-25. In November and early December 1941, OP-20-G spent 85 percent of its effort reading Japanese Navy traffic, 12 percent on Japanese diplomatic traffic and 3 percent on German naval codes. FDR was personally briefed twice a day on JN-25 traffic by his aide, Captain John Beardell, and demanded to see the original raw messages in English. The US Government refuses to identify or declassify any pre-Dec 7, 1941 decrypts of JN-25 on the basis of national security, a half-century after the war.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WARNINGS
Warnings do no harm and might do inexpressible good
27 January 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo told Max Bishop, third secretary of the US embassy that he had just learned from his intelligence sources that there was a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.
31 March 1941 - A Navy report by Bellinger and Martin predicted that if Japan made war on the US, they would strike Pearl Harbor without warning at dawn with aircraft from a maximum of 6 carriers. For years Navy planners had assumed that Japan, on the outbreak of war, would strike the American fleet wherever it was - it was the greatest danger from Japan. The fleet was the only threat to Japan's plans. The fleet at Pearl Harbor was the only High Value Target. Logically, Japan couldn't engage in any major operation with the American fleet on its flank. Initial seriously crippling attacks on the US fleet in Hawaii would be the only chance the Japanese military would have for eventual victory. The strategic options for the Japanese were not unlimited.
10 July - US Military Attache Smith-Hutton at Tokyo reported Japanese Navy secretly practicing aircraft torpedo attacks against capital ships in Ariake Bay. The bay closely resembles Pearl Harbor.
July - The US Military Attache in Mexico forwarded a report that the Japanese were constructing special small submarines for attacking the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, and that a training program then under way included towing them from Japan to positions off the Hawaiian Islands, where they practiced surfacing and submerging.
10 August 1941, the top British agent, code named "Tricycle", Dusko Popov, told the FBI of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and that it would be soon. The FBI told him that his information was "too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap." He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there and that it was of utmost importance to them. The info was given to Naval IQ.
Early in the Fall, Kilsoo Haan, an agent for the Sino-Korean People's League, told Eric Severeid of CBS that the Korean underground in Korea and Japan had positive proof that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before Christmas. Among other things, one Korean had actually seen the plans. In late October, Haan finally convinced US Senator Guy Gillette that the Japanese were planning to attack. Gillette alerted the State Department, Army and Navy Intelligence and FDR personally.
24 September 1941, the "bomb plot" message in J-19 code from Japan Naval Intelligence to Japan' s consul general in Honolulu requesting grid of exact locations of ships pinpointed for the benefit of bombardiers and torpedo pilots was deciphered. There was no reason to know the EXACT location of ships in harbor, unless to attack them - it was a dead giveaway. Chief of War Plans Turner and Chief of Naval Operations Stark repeatedly kept it and warnings based on it prepared by Safford and others from being passed to Hawaii. The chief of Naval Intelligence Captain Kirk was replaced because he insisted on warning HI. It was lack of information like this that lead to the exoneration of the Hawaii commanders and the blaming of Washington for unpreparedness for the attack by the Army Board and Navy Court. At no time did the Japanese ever ask for a similar bomb plot for any other American military installation. Why the Roosevelt administration allowed flagrant Japanese spying on PH has never been explained, but they blocked 2 Congressional investigations in the fall of 1941 to allow it to continue. The bomb plots were addressed to "Chief of 3rd Bureau, Naval General Staff", marked Secret Intelligence message, and given special serial numbers, so their significance couldn't be missed. There were about 95 ships in port. The text was:

"Strictly secret.

"Henceforth, we would like to have you make reports concerning vessels
along the following lines insofar as possible:

"1. The waters (of Pearl Harbor) are to be divided roughly into five
subareas (We have no objections to your abbreviating as much as you
like.)

"Area A. Waters between Ford Island and the Arsenal.
"Area B. Waters adjacent to the Island south and west of Ford Island.
(This area is on the opposite side of the Island from Area A.)
"Area C. East Loch.
"Area D. Middle Loch.
"Area E. West Loch and the communication water routes.

"2. With regard to warships and aircraft carriers, we would like to have
you report on those at anchor (these are not so important) tied up at
wharves, buoys and in docks. (Designate types and classes briefly. If
possible we would like to have you make mention of the fact when
there are two or more vessels along side the same wharf.)"

Simple traffic analysis of the accelerated frequency of messages from various Japanese consuls gave a another identification of war preparations, from Aug-Dec there were 6 messages from Seattle, 18 from Panama, 55 from Manila and 68 from Hawaii.
Oct. - Soviet top spy Richard Sorge, the greatest spy in history, informed the Kremlin that Pearl Harbor would be attacked within 60 days. Moscow informed him that this was passed to the US. Interestingly, all references to Pearl Harbor in the War Department's copy of Sorge's 32,000 word confession to the Japanese were deleted. NY Daily News, 17 May 1951.
16 Oct. - FDR grossly humiliated Japan's Ambassador and refused to meet with Premier Konoye to engineer the war party, lead by General Tojo, into power in Japan.
1 Nov. - JN-25 Order to continue drills against anchored capital ships to prepare to "ambush and completely destroy the US enemy." The message included references to armor-piercing bombs and 'near surface torpedoes.'
13 Nov. - The German Ambassador to US Dr. Thomsen told US IQ that Pearl Harbor would be attacked.
14 Nov. - Japanese Merchant Marine was alerted that wartime recognition signals would be in effect Dec 1.
22 Nov. - Tokyo said to Ambassador Nomura in Washington about extending the deadline for negotiations to November 29: "...this time we mean it, that the deadline absolutely cannot be changed. After that things are automatically going to happen."
CIA Director Allen Dulles told people after the war that US was warned in mid-November 1941 that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. CIA FOIA
23 Nov. - JN25 order - "The first air attack has been set for 0330 hours on X-day." (Tokyo time or 8 A.M. Honolulu time)
25 Nov. - British decrypted the Winds setup message sent Nov. 19. The US decoded it Nov. 28. It was a J-19 Code message that there would be an attack and that the signal would come over Radio Tokyo as a weather report - rain meaning war, east (Higashi) meaning US.
25 Nov. - Secretary of War Stimson noted in his diary "FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next Monday." FDR asked: "the question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of the risk involved, however, in letting the Japanese fire the first shot, we realized that in order to have the full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the aggressors."
25 Nov. - Navy Department ordered all US trans-Pacific shipping to take the southern route. PHH 12:317 (PHH = 1946 Congressional Report, vol. 12, page 317) ADM Turner testified "We sent the traffic down to the Torres Straight, so that the track of the Japanese task force would be clear of any traffic." PHH 4:1942
25 Nov. - Yamamoto radioed this order in JN-25: " (a) The task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters and upon the very opening of hostilities, shall attack the main force of the United States Fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow. The raid is planned for dawn on X-day -- exact date to be given by later order. (b) Should the negotiations with the US prove successful, the task force shall hold itself in readiness forthwith to return and reassemble. (c) The task force will move out of Hitokappu Wan on the morning of 26 November and advance to the standing-by position on the afternoon of 4 December and speedily complete refueling." ( Order to sail - scan from the PHA Congressional Hearings Report, vol 1 p 180, transcript p 437-8) This was decoded by the British on November 25 and the Dutch on November 27. When it was decoded by the US is a national secret, however, on November 26 Naval Intelligence reported the concentration of units of the Japanese fleet at an unknown port ready for offensive action.
26 Nov. 3 A.M. - Churchill sent an urgent secret message to FDR, probably containing above message. This message caused the greatest agitation in DC. Stark testified under oath that "On November 26 there was received specific evidence of the Japanese intention to wage offensive war against Great Britain and the United States." C.I.A. Director William Casey, who was in the OSS in 1941, in his book The Secret War Against Hitler, p 7, wrote "The British had sent word that a Japanese fleet was steaming east toward Hawaii." Washington, in an order of Nov 26 as a result of the "first shot" meeting the day before, ordered both US aircraft carriers, the Enterprise and the Lexington out of Pearl Harbor "as soon as practicable." This order included stripping Pearl of 50 planes or 40 percent of its already inadequate fighter protection. In response to Churchill's message, FDR secretly cabled him that afternoon - "Negotiations off. Services expect action within two weeks." Note that the only way FDR could have linked negotiations with service action, let alone have known the timing of the action, was if he had the message to sail. In other words, the only service action contingent on negotiations was Pearl Harbor.
26 Nov. - the "most fateful document " was Hull's ultimatum that Japan must withdraw from Indochina and all China. FDR's Ambassador to Japan called this "The document that touched the button that started the war."
27 Nov. - Secretary of War Stimson sent a confused and confusing hostile action possible or DO-DON'T warning. The Navy Court found this message directed attention away from Pearl Harbor, rather than toward it. One purpose of the message was to mislead HI into believing negotiations were continuing. The Army which could not do reconnaissance was ordered to and the Navy which could was ordered not to. The Army was ordered on sabotage alert, which specifically precluded attention to outside threat. Navy attention was misdirected 5000 miles from HI. DC repeated, no less than three times as a direct instruction of the President, "The US desires that Japan commit the first overt act Period." It was unusual that FDR directed this warning, a routine matter, to Hawaii which is proof that he knew other warnings were not sent. A simple question--what Japanese "overt act" was FDR expecting at Pearl Harbor? He ordered sabotage prevented and subs couldn't enter, that leaves air attack. The words "overt act" disclose FDR's intent - not just that Japan be allowed to attack but that they inflict damage on the fleet. This FDR order to allow a Japanese attack was aid to the enemy - explicit treason.
29 Nov.- Hull sat in Layfayette Park across from the White House with ace United Press reporter Joe Leib and showed him a message stating that Pearl Harbor would be attacked on December 7. This could well have been the Nov. 26 message from Churchill. The New York Times in its 12/8/41 PH report on page 13 under the headline "Attack Was Expected" stated the US had known a week before that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. Perhaps Leib wasn't the only reporter Hull told.
29 Nov. - The FBI embassy wiretap made an intercept of an uncoded plain-text Japanese international telephone conversation between Ambassador Kurusu in Washington and the Chief Foreign Officer in Tokyo K. Yamamoto in which

an Embassy functionary asked 'Tell me, what zero hour is. Otherwise, I won't be able to carry on diplomacy.' The voice from Tokyo said softly, 'Well then, I will tell you. Zero hour is December 8 at Pearl Harbor.' (US Navy translation 29 Nov 41 - remember Dec 8 Tokyo time is December 7 US time)
30 Nov. US Time (or 1 Dec. Tokyo time) - The Japanese fleet was radioed this Imperial Naval Order (JN-25): "JAPAN, UNDER THE NECESSITY OF HER SELF-PRESERVATION AND SELF-DEFENSE, HAS REACHED A POSITION TO DECLARE WAR ON THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA." (Congress Appendix D, p 415). US ally China also recovered it in plain text from a shot-down Japanese Army plane near Canton that evening. This caused an emergency Imperial Conference because they knew the Chinese would give the information to GB and US. In a related J-19 message the next day, the US translated elaborate instructions from Japan dealing in precise detail with the method of internment of American nationals in Asia "on the outbreak of war with England and the United States"
1 Dec. - Office of Naval Intelligence, ONI, Twelfth Naval District in San Francisco found the missing Japanese fleet by correlating reports from the four wireless news services and several shipping companies that they were getting strange signals west of Hawaii. The Soviet Union also knew the exact location of the Japanese fleet because they asked the Japanese in advance to let one of their ships pass (Layton, And I Was There p 261). This info was most likely given to them by US because Sorge's spy ring was rolled up November 14. All long-range PBY patrols from the Aleutians were ordered stopped on Dec 6 to prevent contact.
1 Dec. - Foreign Minister Togo cabled Washington Ambassador Nomura to continue negotiations "to prevent the U.S. from becoming unduly suspicious."
1 Dec. - The tanker Shiriya, which had been added to the Striking Force in an order intercepted Nov 14, radioed "proceeding to a position 30.00 N, 154.20 E. Expect to arrive at that point on 3 December." (near HI) The fact that this message is in the National Archives destroys the myth that the attack fleet maintained radio silence. "Striking Force Operations Order Number One" (SF serial # 820 dated November 19) were that all 31 ships were to use longwave radio and the Battleship Hiei was ordered to communicate with Tokyo and other fleets by shortwave. FDR apologists always lie about this order. When they have to lie to make their case, that is an admission their case is weak. Serial numbers prove that the Striking Force sent over 663 radio messages between Nov 16 and Dec 7 or about 1 per hour. The NSA has not released 25 percent of raw intercepts because the headers would prove that the Striking Force did not maintain radio silence nor have they released all Direction Finding reports for the same reason. They must be hiding this for a reason. The reason must be to deceive the public. On Nov 29 the Hiei sent one message to the Commander of the 3rd fleet; on Nov 30 the Akagi sent several messages to its tankers - see page 474 of the Hewitt Report. Stinnett in DAY OF DECEIT (p 209) found evidence of over 100 messages from the Striking Force in the National Archives. All Direction Finding reports from HI have been crudely cut out. Reports from Dec 5 show messages sent from the Striking Force picked up by Station Cast, P.I.
From traffic analysis, HI reported that the carrier force was at sea and in the North. THE MOST AMAZING FACT is that in reply to that report, MacArthur's command sent a series of three messages, Nov 26, 29, Dec 2, to HI lying about the location of the carrier fleet - saying it was in the South China Sea west of the Philippines. This false information, which the NSA calls inexplicable, was the true reason that HI was caught unawares. Duane Whitlock, who is still alive in Iowa, sent those messages.
There were a large number of other messages that gave the location of the Striking Force by alluding to the Aleutians, the North Pacific and various weather systems near HI.
1 Dec. - FDR cut short his scheduled ten day vacation after 1 day to meet with Hull and Stark. The result of this meeting was reported on 2 Dec. by the Washington Post: "President Roosevelt yesterday assumed direct command of diplomatic and military moves relating to Japan." This politically damaging move was necessary to prevent the mutiny of conspirators.
1 Dec. 3:30 P.M. FDR read Foreign Minister Togo's message to his ambassador to Germany: "Say very secretly to them that there is extreme danger between Japan & Anglo-Saxon nations through some clash of arms, add that the time of this war may come quicker than anyone dreams." This was in response to extreme German pressure on November 29 for Japan to strike the US and promises to join with Japan in war against the US. The second of its three parts has never been released. The message says the 2nd part contains the plan of campaign. This is 1 of only 3 known DIPLOMATIC intercepts that specified PH as target. It was so interesting, FDR kept a copy.
2 Dec. 2200 Tokyo time- Here is a typical JN-25 ships-in-harbor report sent to attack fleet, words in parenthesis were in the original: "Striking Force telegram No. 994. Two battleships (Oklahoma, Nevada), 1 aircraft carrier (Enterprise) 2 heavy cruisers, 12 destroyers sailed. The force that sailed on 22 November returned to port. Ships at anchor Pearl Harbor p.m. 28 November were 6 battleships (2 Maryland class, 2 California class, 2 Pennsylvania class), 1 aircraft carrier (Lexington), 9 heavy cruisers (5 San Francisco class, 3 Chicago class, 1 Salt Lake class), 5 light cruisers (4 Honolulu class, 1 Omaha class)"
2 Dec. - Commander of the Combined Imperial Fleet Yamamoto radioed the attack fleet in plain (uncoded) Japanese "Climb Niitakayama 1208" (Dec 8 Japanese time, Dec 7 our time). Thus the US knew EXACTLY when the war would start. Mount Niitaka was the highest mountain in the Japanese Empire.
2 Dec. - General Hein Ter Poorten, the commander of the Netherlands East Indies Army gave the Winds setup message to the US War Department. The Australians had a center in Melbourne and the Chinese also broke JN-25. A Dutch sub had visually tracked the attack fleet to the Kurile Islands in early November and this info was passed to DC, but DC did not give it to HI. The intercepts the Dutch gave the US are still classified.
2 Dec - Japanese order No. 902 specified that old JN-25 additive tables version 7 would continue to be used alongside version 8 when the latter was introduced on December 4. This means the US read all messages to the Striking Force through the attack.
4 Dec. - In the early hours, Ralph Briggs at the Navy's East Coast Intercept station, received the "East Winds, Rain" message, the Winds Execute, which meant war. He put it on the TWX circuit immediately and called his commander. This message, Japanese Dispatch # 7001, was deleted from the files. One of the main coverups of Pearl Harbor was to make this message disappear because why would Roosevelt not warn Hawaii when he knew war was certain? The Winds message makes treason too easily proved. In response to the Winds Execute, the Office of US Naval IQ had all Far Eastern stations (Hawaii not informed) destroy their codes and classified documents including the Tokyo Embassy.
4 Dec. - The Dutch invoked the ADB joint defense agreement when the Japanese crossed the magic line of 100 East and 10 North. The U.S. was at war with Japan 3 days before they were at war with us.
4 Dec. - General Ter Poorten sent all the details of the Winds Execute command to Colonel Weijerman, the Dutch military attache' in Washington to pass on to the highest military circles. Weijerman personally gave it to Marshall, Chief of Staff of the War Department.
4 Dec - US General Thorpe at Java sent four messages warning of the PH attack. DC ordered him to stop sending warnings.
5 Dec. - All Japanese international shipping had returned to home port.
5 Dec. - At a Cabinet meeting, Secretary of the Navy Knox said, "Well, you know Mr. President, we know where the Japanese fleet is?" "Yes, I know" said FDR. " I think we ought to tell everybody just how ticklish the situation is. We have information as Knox just mentioned...Well, you tell them what it is, Frank." Knox became very excited and said, "Well, we have very secret information that the Japanese fleet is out at sea. Our information is..." and then a scowling FDR cut him off. (Infamy, Toland, 1982, ch 14 sec 5)
5 Dec. - Washington Star reporter Constantine Brown quotes a friend in his book The Coming of the Whirlwind p 291, "This is it! The Japs are ready to attack. We've broken their code, and we've read their ORDERS."
6 December - This 18 November J19 message was translated by the Army:
"1. The warships at anchor in the Harbor on the 15th were as I told you in my No.219 on that day. Area A -- A battleship of the Oklahoma class entered and one tanker left port. Area C -- 3 warships of the heavy cruiser class were at anchor.
2. On the 17th the Saratoga was not in harbor. The carrier Enterprise, or some other vessel was in Area C. Two heavy cruisers of the Chicago class, one of the Pensacola class were tied up at docks 'KS'. 4 merchant vessels were at anchor in area D.
3. At 10:00 A.M. on the morning of the 17th, 8 destroyers were observed entering the Harbor..." Of course this information was not passed to HI.
6 Dec. - A Dec 2 request from Tokyo to HI for information about the absence of barrage balloons, anti-torpedo nets and air recon was translated by the Army.
6 Dec. - at 9:30 P.M FDR read the first 13 parts of the decoded Japanese diplomatic declaration of war and said "This means war." What kind of President would do nothing? When he returned to his 34 dinner guests he said, "The war starts tomorrow."
6 Dec. - the war cabinet: FDR, top advisor Hopkins, Stimson, Marshall, Secretary of the Navy Knox, with aides John McCrea and Frank Beatty "deliberately sat through the night of 6 December 1941 waiting for the Japs to strike." (Infamy ch 16 sec 2)
7 December - A message from the Japanese Consul in Budapest to Tokyo:
"On the 6th, the American Minister presented to the Government of this country a British Government communique to the effect that a state of war would break out on the 7th." The communique was the Dec 5th War Alert from the British Admiralty. It has disappeared. This triple priority alert was delivered to FDR personally Dec 5. The Mid-East British Air Marshall told Col. Bonner Fellers on Saturday that he had received a secret signal that America was coming into the war in 24 hours. Churchill summarized the message in GRAND ALLIANCE page 601 as listing the two fleets attacking British targets and "Other Japanese fleets...also at sea on other tasks." There only were three other fleets- for Guam, the Philippines and HI. 2 paragraphs of the alert, British targets only, are printed in At Dawn We Slept, Prange, p 464. There is no innocent purpose for our government to hide this document.
7 December 1941 very early Washington time, there were two Marines, an emergency special detail, stationed outside the Japanese Naval Attache's door. 9:30 AM Aides begged Stark to send a warning to Hawaii. He did not. 10 AM FDR read the 14th part of the Declaration of War, 11 A.M. FDR read the accompanying 15th part setting the time for the declaration of war to be delivered to the State Department at 1 PM, about dawn Pearl Harbor time, and did nothing. Navy Secretary Knox was given the 15th part at 11:15 A.M. with this note from the Office of Naval IQ: "This means a sunrise attack on Pearl Harbor today." Naval IQ also transmitted this prediction to Hull and about 8 others, including the White House (PHH 36:532). At 10:30 AM Bratton informed Marshall that he had a most important message (the 15th part) and would bring it to Marshall's quarters but Marshall said he would take it at his office. At 11:25 Marshall reached his office according to Bratton. Marshall testified that he had been riding horses that morning but he was contradicted by Harrison, McCollum, and Deane. Marshall who had read the first 13 parts by 10 PM the prior night, later perjured himself by denying that he had even received them. Marshall, in the face of his aides' urgent supplications that he warn Hawaii, made strange delays including reading and re-reading all of the 10 minute long 14 Part Message (and some parts several times) which took an hour and refused to use the scrambler phone on his desk, refused to send a warning by the fast, more secure Navy system but sent Bratton three times to inquire how long it would take to send his watered down warning - when informed it would take 30 or 40 minutes by Army radio, he was satisfied (that meant he had delayed enough so the warning wouldn't reach Pearl Harbor until after the 1 PM Washington time deadline). The warning was in fact sent commercial without priority identification and arrived 6 hours late. This message reached all other addressees, like the Philippines and Canal Zone, in a timely manner.
7 December - 7:55 A.M. Hawaii time AIR RAID PEARL HARBOR. THIS IS NOT DRILL.
7 December - 1:50 P.M. Washington time. Harry Hopkins, who was the only person with FDR when he received the news of the attack by telephone from Knox, wrote that FDR was unsurprised and expressed "great relief." Eleanor Roosevelt wrote about December 7th in This I Remember p 233, that FDR became "in a way more serene." In the NY Times Magazine of October 8, 1944 she wrote: "December 7 was...far from the shock it proved to the country in general. We had expected something of the sort for a long time."
7 December - 3:00 PM "The (war cabinet) conference met in not too tense an atmosphere because I think that all of us believed that in the last analysis the enemy was Hitler...and that Japan had given us an opportunity." Harry Hopkins (top KGB agent and FDR's alter ego), Dec. 7 Memo (Roosevelt and Hopkins R Sherwood, p. 431)
7 December - 9 hours later, MacArthur's entire air force was caught by surprise and wiped out in the Philippines. His reaction to the news of Pearl Harbor was quite unusual - he locked himself in his room all morning and refused to meet with his air commander General Brereton, and refused to attack Japanese forces on Formosa even under orders from the War Department. MacArthur gave three conflicting orders that ensured the planes were on the ground most of the morning. MacArthur used radar tracking of the Japanese planes at 140, 100, 80, 60, down to 20 miles to time his final order and ensure his planes were on the ground. Strategically, the destruction of half of all US heavy bombers in the world was more important than naval damage in Pearl Harbor. Either MacArthur had committed the greatest blunder in military history or he was under orders to allow his forces to be destroyed. If it were the greatest blunder in history, it is remarkable how he escaped any reprimand, kept his command and got his fourth star and Congressional Medal of Honor shortly later. Prange argued, "How could the President ensure a successful Japanese attack unless he confided in the commanders and persuaded them to allow the enemy to proceed unhindered?"
7 December - 8:30 PM, FDR said to his cabinet, "We have reason to believe that the Germans have told the Japanese that if Japan declares war, they will too. In other words, a declaration of war by Japan automatically brings..." at which point he was interrupted, but his expectation and focus is clear. Mrs. Frances Perkins, Secretary of Labor, observed later about FDR: "I had a deep emotional feeling that something was wrong, that this situation was not all it appeared to be." Mrs. Perkins was obsessed by Roosevelt's strange reactions that night and remarked particularly on the expression he had:" In other words, there have been times when I associated that expression with a kind of evasiveness."
FDR met with CBS newsman Edward R. Murrow at midnight. Murrow, who had seen many statesmen in crises, was surprised at FDR's calm reaction. After chatting about London, they reviewed the latest news from PH and then FDR tested Murrow's news instincts with these 2 bizarre giveaway questions: "Did this surprise you?" Murrow said yes. FDR: "Maybe you think it didn't surprise us?" FDR gave the impression that the attack itself was not unwelcome. This is the same high-strung FDR that got polio when convicted of perjury; the same FDR that was bedridden for a month when he learned Russia was to be attacked; the same FDR who couldn't eat or drink when he got the Japanese order to sail.
8 December - In a conversation with his speech writer Rosenman, FDR "emphasized that Hitler was still the first target, but he feared that a great many Americans would insist that we make the war in the Pacific at least equally important with the war against Hitler."
Later, Jonathan Daniels, administrative assistant and press secretary to FDR said, "The blow was heavier than he had hoped it would necessarily be...But the risks paid off; even the loss was worth the price..."
FDR reminisced with Stalin at Tehran on November 30, 1943, saying "if the Japanese had not attacked the US he doubted very much if it would have been possible to send any American forces to Europe." Compare this statement with what FDR said at the Atlantic Conference 4 months before Pearl: "Everything was to be done to force an 'incident' to justify hostilities." Given that a Japanese attack was the only possible incident, then FDR had promised he would do it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information Known in Washington and Hawaii
October 9-December 7, 1941
DATE ITEM DC KIMMEL SHORT
Oct 9 "Bombplot" message X
Nov 26-28 "Winds" setup message X X[1]
Nov 26 Location of carriers X
Dec 1 Japanese declaration of war X
Dec 2-6 Code destruction X X[2] X
Dec 4 "Winds execute" message X X[3]
Dec 4 US at war with Japan via ADB X
Dec 5 British Admiralty War Alert X
Dec 6-7 "14 Part" message X
Dec 7 "One o'clock" message X

NOTES

[1] Admiral Kimmel learned of the "winds" code in a Nov. 28th dispatch to him from the US Asiatic Fleet. JCC, p. 470.
[2] DC informed HI that codes were being burned world-wide so when they
learned the local consulate burned codes they would not go on alert.
[3] General Short was given the Winds Execute by British IQ.

None of the 3 diplomatic messages or the many naval messages
identifying Pearl as the target were forwarded to HI (not to mention human intelligence).
Only 5 of the 74 Navy IQ packets delivered to FDR in the 2 weeks before Dec 7 can be found.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMISSIONS AND COVERUP
Two and only two courts of law have decided the issue of whether FDR and Washington or the commanders in Hawaii were responsible for the Pearl Harbor disaster. Both the Navy Court and the Army Board found Washington guilty. It is the official position of the US Government and its courts that the conspiracy is true. Courts determine ultimate truth.

[Mark Bryan]

I heard evidence of this on www.newswatchmagazine.org however I've yet to see any CONCRETE evidence (not conspiracy theories) that connect Bush and Cheney to 9-11,since the hijackers were Arabs.

[joebhoy]

Howdy psychocat,

I voted yes,in yer poll..not only should we supply Israel munitions,but I hope that we have offered to provide something that they ain't got..a good ol' fashioned carpet-bombing with B-52's..


You supply Israel but yet you all complain when Iran arm Hezbollah.

I wonder if the way your thinking on supplying country's with arm's would you think it would be a great idea if someone gave Iran nukes :dance: sure would get ye off there back's.

[psychocat]

Ha Ha Ha What an absurd statement. Americas was attacked by Japan. Japan and Germany were the bad guys. So that made it Japan and Germany (and depending on what day it was Italy) vs just about everyone else.
You keep making errors about history that only an uneducated, uninformed person would make. Or then again maybe it's because you are anti-American.
Go sell your rewrite of history to the fantasy channel.

Better educated than you can even imagine so please forget the purile attempts to undermine what I say.

FACT WW II started in 1939 and the only ones opposing the Nazi's were Russia and Great Britain. The US forces didn't show till 1941 leaving Europe to the Italian Facists and Hitler for 2 years.

FACT The real reason the German forces lost was their inability to beat the EUROPEANS in the Battle of Britain (Americans were scarce :D ), in his frustration Hitler ordered a push into Russia during wintertime (lunacy as Napoleon learned much earlier) the Russians ran and burned .
The consequence of this was that upon arriving in a town or city the Germans found no spoils of war or shelter instead they slowly starved or froze to death in the arctic Russian winter.

I bet you believe the Americans found the ENIGMA machine too.

John Wayne did not singlehandedly win all the wars since the 30's (sic):p

[psychocat]

A few more facts.

Sept 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.

Sept 5, 1939 -United States proclaims neutrality; German troops cross the Vistula River in Poland.

Sept 10, 1939 - Canada declares war on Germany; Battle of the Atlantic begins.

Thank God for our Canadian cousins.:thumbsup:

March 11, 1941 - President Roosevelt signs the Lend-Lease Act. :mad:

What did I say about seeing dollar signs ?:D

July 26, 1941 - Roosevelt freezes Japanese assets in United States and suspends relations.

Dec 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor; Hitler issues the Night and Fog decree.

United States and Britain declare war on Japan.

Maybe we should've followed Americas example and stayed neutral.

Jan 13, 1942 - Germans begin a U-boat offensive along east coast of USA.

Jan 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.

My mistake in giving them more credit than they were due , I thought they came over in late 41 (we all make mistakes)

I still believe that the US had it not been attacked would never have gotten involved and the lend/lease was a complete betrayal since it put dollars ahead of everything.

Now please tell me again how we should all be gratefull to America ?? :mad:

[Breukelen advocaat]

John Wayne did not singlehandedly win all the wars since the 30's (sic):p

That reminds me of a funny story my father told me years ago. He served in Europe with the Airborne in WWII, and when they showed a John Wayne film on movie night, the paratroopers would cheer if Wayne got shot down or hit.

They had the officers segregated for movie nights, below the paratroopers, and they had to put nets over their section because the Airborne guys would throw food, wrappers, garbage and other stuff down on them. :D

P.S. John Wayne was never actually in the military. :thumbsup:

[Ozarks]

A few more facts.

Sept 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.

Sept 5, 1939 -United States proclaims neutrality; German troops cross the Vistula River in Poland.

Sept 10, 1939 - Canada declares war on Germany; Battle of the Atlantic begins.

Thank God for our Canadian cousins.:thumbsup:

March 11, 1941 - President Roosevelt signs the Lend-Lease Act. :mad:

What did I say about seeing dollar signs ?:D

July 26, 1941 - Roosevelt freezes Japanese assets in United States and suspends relations.

Dec 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor; Hitler issues the Night and Fog decree.

United States and Britain declare war on Japan.

Maybe we should've followed Americas example and stayed neutral.

Jan 13, 1942 - Germans begin a U-boat offensive along east coast of USA.

Jan 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.

My mistake in giving them more credit than they were due , I thought they came over in late 41 (we all make mistakes)

I still believe that the US had it not been attacked would never have gotten involved and the lend/lease was a complete betrayal since it put dollars ahead of everything.

Now please tell me again how we should all be gratefull to America ?? :mad:

Just to fair here, Britain did fight Germany to a draw in the battle of Britain, in British built "spitfires" however in 39-41 America did supply England with massive amounts of war material through the "Lend Lease" program, which was a euphemism for "giving it" to England.

Also American Merchant Marines supplied England with everything from butter to pencils to underwear. From 39-41 England was doing the fighting but they had a lot of help from their friends. There are many ways to "help" your friends during war time.;)

Many historians say England wouldn't have been able to fight Germany to a draw and there by force Hitler to postpone his invasion of England with out the materials shipped to it by America.

Should you be grateful, how about historicaly honest, giving a little credit where credit is do.

[psychocat]

Lend/lease = pay for, not give.
It didn't start the lend/lease till 41 so where do you get it starting in 39?
America remained neutral from 39 to 41.
They also got Whittles design for the jet engine as payment for their help, please don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

[Ozarks]

Lend/lease = pay for, not give.
It was "given" at the time(41-45) and yes, England did pay us back at the end of the war.




America remained neutral from 39 to 41.


Only on paper.



November 4 1939
In Washington... A modification of the neutrality legislation passes into law. Although by its terms the ban on American ships and civilians in clearly defined war zones is confirmed, it does provide for supply of arms to belligerents on a "cash and carry" basis. Such arms must be ordered from private companies, paid for up front and transported to the war zone in the in ships provided by the purchaser. British naval strength means that, as is intended, only theAllies will benefit from this. Within a few days both the British and the French establish purchasing missions in Washington


Like I said there are many ways to help your friends during war time.

[PigSnout]

FACT WW II started in 1939 and the only ones opposing the Nazi's were Russia and Great Britain. The US forces didn't show till 1941 leaving Europe to the Italian Facists and Hitler for 2 years.
And what happened in 1941 to cause them to enter the war? Prices of tanks go up so USA could make money? Noooooooooooooo
A little thing called Pearl Harbor.
America entered because of money? pure nonsense

[PigSnout]

Now please tell me again how we should all be gratefull to America ?? :mad:
Sorry about only 6 million Jews dying and not being able to goose step. heil Hitler

[Torog]

You supply Israel but yet you all complain when Iran arm Hezbollah.

I wonder if the way your thinking on supplying country's with arm's would you think it would be a great idea if someone gave Iran nukes :dance: sure would get ye off there back's.

Howdy joe,

There's a big difference between supplying a democratic country and supplying a bunch of terrorists,who want to literally kill democracy.

Do you really believe that what the terrorists offer,is better than democracy ?

The prez of Iran says that he's willing to sacrifice(martyr) up to 50% of the population of Iran,in Iran's quest to "wipe Israel off the map". Israel says that it will use the Samson Option,if need be(mutual assured destruction),rather than be overrun by muslim jihadists.

So..do ya got any solutions ? I hope that yer solution,doesn't involve surrender to islamo-fascists,cuz if ya give em an inch,they'll take a mile.

Have a good one ....

[Mark Bryan]

Howdy joe,

There's a big difference between supplying a democratic country and supplying a bunch of terrorists,who want to literally kill democracy.
Liberals could care LESS!

Do you really believe that what the terrorists offer,is better than democracy ? I DON'T


The prez of Iran says that he's willing to sacrifice(martyr) up to 50% of the population of Iran,in Iran's quest to "wipe Israel off the map". Israel says that it will use the Samson Option,if need be(mutual assured destruction),rather than be overrun by muslim jihadists.:thumbsup: GO ISRAEL!


So..do ya got any solutions ? I hope that yer solution,doesn't involve surrender to islamo-fascists,cuz if ya give em an inch,they'll take a mile.

MY solution would be to overthrow the islamofascists and have the moderates institute a Hemp For Victory program replacin' the oil cartels over there,givin' them hemp to supply their energy needs and technology to become energy and financially independent while maintainin' religious freedom without tyranny,turnin' them into a pro-western society!

[Torog]

Howdy Mark,

I like yer idea..sounds like a plan to me ! :thumbsup:

"MY solution would be to overthrow the islamofascists and have the moderates institute a Hemp For Victory program replacin' the oil cartels over there,givin' them hemp to supply their energy needs and technology to become energy and financially independent while maintainin' religious freedom without tyranny,turnin' them into a pro-western society!"

Have a good one ! :D :stoned:

[Bong30]

Lets just nuke the fuck out of them and then round up all the muslims here in the states and put them in concetration camps like the Japanesse......???

or we could do your guys Ideas.... what ever. Im sick of sitting here that is for sure.


Im just wondering when the next Jihadist is going to run my wife and kids down with a car at the mall? all for allah of course.

what are you even thinking........

[Mark Bryan]

Howdy Mark,

I like yer idea..sounds like a plan to me ! :thumbsup:

"MY solution would be to overthrow the islamofascists and have the moderates institute a Hemp For Victory program replacin' the oil cartels over there,givin' them hemp to supply their energy needs and technology to become energy and financially independent while maintainin' religious freedom without tyranny,turnin' them into a pro-western society!"

Have a good one ! :D :stoned:

HOWDY DUDE!:D :rasta: SMOKE A FAT ONE!

[psychocat]

The "wipe em out " brigade are as insane as the terrorists IMO , violence will always result in more violence and never in peace.

War for peace is an oxymoron and those who believe it will work are just morons.

[joebhoy]

There's a big difference between supplying a democratic country and supplying a bunch of terrorists,who want to literally kill democracy.

Oh yeah Israel is ranked as 38th Syria is 124th not a hell of alot of difference and Russia 115th :confused:


Do you really believe that what the terrorists offer,is better than democracy ?

Can you explain to me what you call DEMOCRACY?

Your country are terrorist's and with the help of god you will all pay the price.


The prez of Iran says that he's willing to sacrifice(martyr) up to 50% of the population of Iran,in Iran's quest to "wipe Israel off the map". Israel says that it will use the Samson Option,if need be(mutual assured destruction),rather than be overrun by muslim jihadists.

Hitler's only crime was not wiping all the Jews off the face of the map think about it if they did wouldn't the world be alot better off? How many people were killed in war's which involved Israel.

Of course he would be willing to die for his country your solider's that die are terrorist's murdering innocent people but you regard them as been heroes there would be no better way to go than die for your country in a JUST WAR.

And you all say there was 6 million's jew's killed by hitler you do know that's not true some people say only about 100,000 some say 50,000 while ye stood there and let it happen.

[Bong30]

Hitler's only crime was not wiping all the Jews off the face of the map think about it if they did wouldn't the world be alot better off? How many people were killed in war's which involved Israel.

How about Vietnam, Iran, iraq war.....

Are fucking kidding me.....you are dumb piece of shit


Only about 50,000 Jews died..... Fuck YOU.

And you all say there was 6 million's jew's killed by hitler you do know that's not true some people say only about 100,000 some say 50,000 while ye stood there and let it happen.

You are a piece of shit.:thumbsup:


The german people let it happen, little hitler.............

[joebhoy]

Did you hear about the Irish guy's George Bush is getting to rebuild the twin tower's he said he want's it done quick.

The Irish guy's go yeah dont worry once we get to the 20th floor we will fly right through it. :thumbsup:

How many people was it again ye killed in Vietnam?

In Japan?

Iraq?

The list goes on, on and on ye wont fight a country that can attack ye back.

[graymatter]

Hitler's only crime was not wiping all the Jews off the face of the map think about it if they did wouldn't the world be alot better off?

So, genocide is the answer? If you're going to use that logic, then Bush's only crime would be not wiping all arabs off the face of the earth.

[Hamlet]

"Hitler's only crime was not wiping all the Jews off the face of the map"

I'm speechless......I've never heard someone say something so profoundly evil.

[Breukelen advocaat]

The Jews were an easy scapegoat for Hitler to use. Taking their assets away was the real reason that he and his henchmen chose them - but they had to stir up enough hatred among the minions to get the job done.

This guy, Joebhoy, is a perfect example of the type of idiots that existed in Germany who facilitated the genocide.

Regardless of what morons on anonymous message boards say about America's role in WWII I am proud of what my father , and millions of others, did in the military to stop the genocide. If this punk had been there, he'd have a different take on it - but he's just another example of a contemporary, decadent youth shooting off his mouth for attention. If I had ever said anything like that as a youth, where I grew up, I would have been smacked down before finishing the sentences. :thumbsup:

[joebhoy]

This guy, Joebhoy, is a perfect example of the type of idiots that existed in Germany who facilitated the genocide.

Em I'm not from Germany if you haven't noticed.



Regardless of what morons on anonymous message boards say about America's role in WWII I am proud of what my father , and millions of others, did in the military to stop the genocide. If this punk had been there, he'd have a different take on it - but he's just another example of a contemporary, decadent youth shooting off his mouth for attention.

Oh I'm looking for attention am I, I'm pissed off because bastard's give Israel there weapon's to go bomb the shit out of other country's killing thousand's while they could have stopped it, then you want us the UN to go and risk our neck's out there.

Are you happy what your country did to Japan yeah bet you are.


If I had ever said anything like that as a youth, where I grew up, I would have been smacked down before finishing the sentences.

Yeah well here we say whatever we want were not Jew licking arse cunt's.

Em has America never committed genocide?

What did ye do to stop genocide in Africa?

Oh yeah I forgot that wasn't genocide was it, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO BE KILLED BEFORE YOU CAN CALL IT GENOCIDE remember that?

Oh I'm looking for attention am I, I'm pissed off because bastard's give Israel there weapon's to go bomb the shit out of other country's then you want us the UN to go and risk our neck's out there.

You all know what's coming up in a few day's time I hope ye are all ready for the next attack, I wonder will George Bush sit in a school again for about 15minutes before he get's off his arse.

You all must know ye are going to pay a big price for what ye are doing in this world. With the help of god. :dance:

[joebhoy]

And ye dont want Iran to have nuke's sure why not? Who is the only country in the world to use them not one but two?

Is that not genocide..

4 more days to go we will be partying like hell over here. God bless them men in heaven who died for there just cause.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Em I'm not from Germany if you haven't noticed.

The Germans don't say those things anymore - I know where you're from and your countrymen are not generally like that.


Oh I'm looking for attention am I, I'm pissed off because bastard's give Israel there weapon's to go bomb the shit out of other country's killing thousand's while they could have stopped it, then you want us the UN to go and risk our neck's out there.
Are you happy what your country did to Japan yeah bet you are.

The issue that I was addressing was your holocaust denial - not today's politics, and if you don't know that you're even more stupid than I thought

As far as the Atom bomb, yes I am glad that it was used. It saved a lot of lives. If those idiots had surrendered, it wouldn't have happened. After the first A-bomb, they still didn't get it, so we had to give them a second helping. They are now our allies.


Yeah well here we say whatever we want were not Jew licking arse cunt's.
Yeah, but I bet you've never met a survivor of the holocaust now, have you? I have.

Em has America never committed genocide?
Every war has it's criminals - but would you like all of Ireland to still be under the control of Great Britain?
What did ye do to stop genocide in Africa?

Oh yeah I forgot that wasn't genocide was it, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO BE KILLED BEFORE YOU CAN CALL IT GENOCIDE remember that?
You lost me there, laddie. The eradication of huge populations is what genocide is. The United States has not done this, no matter what you think.

Oh I'm looking for attention am I, I'm pissed off because bastard's give Israel there weapon's to go bomb the shit out of other country's then you want us the UN to go and risk our neck's out there.
My feelings about the Israeli fight with Lebanon have nothing to do with the Holocaust denial that you presented. You are going off on tangents rather than facing your prejudices and hatred.

You all know what's coming up in a few day's time I hope ye are all ready for the next attack, I wonder will George Bush sit in a school again for about 15minutes before he get's off his arse.
Ni, I don't "know what's coming up in a few day's time". Why don't you enlighten us?

You all must know ye are going to pay a big price for what ye are doing in this world. With the help of god. :dance:

Hey, the "big price" is going to be paid by those that are out to destroy us, and it will not be "with the help of god".

Ask the Japanese.

[joebhoy]

To any Jewish people that is here I'm sorry if I offended ye I shouldn't of really said that about Hitler though in my opinion Bush is worse.

But I honestly cant believe what American people say you say oh go to Iran nuke the bastard's WHY?

Has Iran ever attacked your country?

Has Iraq ever attacked your country?


Where were the September 11th suicide bomber's from? Most were Saudis so why not go attack them.

Ye really have a very bad image around the world and ya are making the situation worse than it is by what ye are doing.

Also remember Blair is gone next year and the Conservatives are thinking about going against America I don't mean against but stop supporting then what will happen and also long after Bush is gone ye will be still fighting.

And I honestly that a nuclear is inevitable on the US and to be honest would you say that would be justified after all the thing's ye have done.


Ask the Japanese. So your proud of what your country done dropping nukes you should go there see what ye done to the people wouldn't be long changing your mind? Wouldn't that mean September 11th was right didn't ye attack them?

The Japanese could have wiped yer hole Navy out.

[Breukelen advocaat]

To any Jewish people that is here I'm sorry if I offended ye I shouldn't of really said that about Hitler though in my opinion Bush is worse.
You've got to be kidding!

But I honestly cant believe what American people say you say oh go to Iran nuke the bastard's WHY?
Most people here are not into having a war with Iran, or anybody else.

Has Iran ever attacked your country?
You're too young to remember the hostage crisis, after they deposed the Shaw of Iran. That led to Reagan getting elected.

Has Iraq ever attacked your country?
No, but give 'em time and they'll attack somebody - Islam is extremely bad news.

Where were the September 11th suicide bomber's from? Most were Saudis so why not go attack them.
Because the headquarters were in Afghanistan.

Ye really have a very bad image around the world and ya are making the situation worse than it is by what ye are doing.
Yes, they screwed it up for the time being, but that's another issue and we will have other problems as well.

Also remember Blair is gone next year and the Conservatives are thinking about going against America I don't mean against but stop supporting then what will happen and also long after Bush is gone ye will be still fighting.
Yes, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. I agree.

And I honestly that a nuclear is inevitable on the US and to be honest would you say that would be justified after all the thing's ye have done.
Bullshit.

So your proud of what your country done? Wouldn't that mean September 11th was right didn't ye attack them?
Bin Laden, others like him, and Islam in general, is into forcing the whole world to be under Islamic Rule. Is that what you want?

The Japannesse could have wiped yer hole Navy out.

Tell it to the Marines. :dance:

[joebhoy]

Tell it to the Marines. :dance:

I would, oh I'm sorry how many marines died in Lebanon with that truck bomb again?

Well anyways you say it's bullshit but it is gonna happen, I hope ye wont be crying like babies like 9/11 do ye honestly think ye can go around doing what ye are and not end up paying as price, do you honestly believe the family's of the people you murder wont be out for revenge. There are thousand's with hundred's of thousands of supporter's just waiting for the call to attack.

The only country Iraq will be attacking is ye.

Oh no wait you know them guy's forget the name's something to do with Turkey they want there own state right? Bomb planted last week in Turkey by them, ye support terrorist's just like you say Iran does.

No there not ye are trying to force this fucking Democracy shit in other country's that has nothing what so ever got to do with ye.

And why hasnt the other guy answered me what is Democracy to you?

[Mark Bryan]

The "wipe em out " brigade are as insane as the terrorists IMO , violence will always result in more violence and never in peace.

War for peace is an oxymoron and those who believe it will work are just morons.
You gonna say we never shoulda nuked Japan or declared independence from Britain? I don't like violence either,but if some bully keeps pushin' me around and punchin' me in the face for no reason,I'm gonna kick him in the calf muscle and give him a big 'ol charlie horse, then bash his face up against the wall and clothesline the hell outta him and tell him if he does that AGAIN, he's gonna feel some REAL pain!

[Mark Bryan]

Oh yeah Israel is ranked as 38th Syria is 124th not a hell of alot of difference and Russia 115th :confused:



Can you explain to me what you call DEMOCRACY?

Your country are terrorist's and with the help of god you will all pay the price. You sound like an anti American to me! Where are we commitin' terrorism?




Hitler's only crime was not wiping all the Jews off the face of the map think about it if they did wouldn't the world be alot better off? How many people were killed in war's which involved Israel. You CERTAINLY are antisemitic! We're better off with Hitler DEAD!


Of course he would be willing to die for his country your solider's that die are terrorist's murdering innocent people but you regard them as been heroes there would be no better way to go than die for your country in a JUST WAR. DELUUUUUUSIONAL!


And you all say there was 6 million's jew's killed by hitler you do know that's not true some people say only about 100,000 some say 50,000 while ye stood there and let it happen. Got any data to back up this BRAINDEAD claim?!

[Mark Bryan]

Has Iran ever attacked your country? YES! They took Americans hostage in 1981 thanks to Jimmy Carter! I personally think we should hand his sorry ass over to the Iranians for doin' so!





Where were the September 11th suicide bomber's from? Most were Saudis so why not go attack them.

THIS I agree with!

[psychocat]

You gonna say we never shoulda nuked Japan or declared independence from Britain? I don't like violence either,but if some bully keeps pushin' me around and punchin' me in the face for no reason,I'm gonna kick him in the calf muscle and give him a big 'ol charlie horse, then bash his face up against the wall and clothesline the hell outta him and tell him if he does that AGAIN, he's gonna feel some REAL pain!


Yes I am saying that using nukes was wrong.
As for independance from Britain that is simply so far off topic if you want an answer then start another thread.

Bully = A person (or country) that uses force , violence ,coercion and intimidation to get their way.

Much like America waving it's dick around and trying to tell other countries what they can do.

The American way "if they disagree with you then they must be the enemy and must be indoctrinated or bombed out of existence" thank fuck for democracy LMAO !

[Abattoir Dream]

well, they have to give them the weapons, the deal is sealed knowwotimean?

[Mark Bryan]

Yes I am saying that using nukes was wrong.
O.K.,then answer this,what SHOULD we have done? You realize if we HADN'T nuked them,our casualties would've been much LARGER! The decision to nuke 'em was not an easy one,but DEFINATELY a legit one!


Bully = A person (or country) that uses force , violence ,coercion and intimidation to get their way. Since 1607? PROVE IT!


Much like America waving it's dick around and trying to tell other countries what they can do.EXAMPLES PLEASE! Not just opinions!


The American way "if they disagree with you then they must be the enemy and must be indoctrinated or bombed out of existence" thank fuck for democracy LMAO !
More communist dogma!

[psychocat]

I am wasting my time even trying to talk sense to someone who so obviously believes that Americas history is pristine and without shame.
Isreal is an agressive nation being supplied weapons by the US, whilst the US is going around saying hey guys we all want peace. ????

Surely even in your mind the only conclusion can be they are talking shit ?

[PigSnout]

To any Jewish people that is here I'm sorry if I offended ye I shouldn't of really said that about Hitler though in my opinion Bush is worse.
You said it because you are an anti-semite. You're true colors have been shown. Go crawl back into your hole, you anti-semetic piece of garbage.

[PigSnout]

I am wasting my time even trying to talk sense to someone who so obviously believes that Americas history is pristine and without shame.
He never said Americas history is pristine. Another laughable example of you twisting words to fit your lies.


Isreal is an agressive nation being supplied weapons by the US, whilst the US is going around saying hey guys we all want peace. ????

Surely even in your mind the only conclusion can be they are talking shit ?
Israel is rightfully defending itself against a demented terrorist organization that is trying to wipe out Jews. A simple point that you refuse to admit. Denile is not a river in Egypt!!!!

[Mark Bryan]

I am wasting my time even trying to talk sense to someone who so obviously believes that Americas history is pristine and without shame. I didn't say we had a pristine history! Talk about DEFLECTION! I agree there are shameful things the government has done,prohibition and slavery bein' examples,but you take it FURTHER with liberal dogma!

Isreal is an agressive nation being supplied weapons by the US, whilst the US is going around saying hey guys we all want peace. ???? If you're sayin' self defense is wrong,then you're a suicidal maniac!


Surely even in your mind the only conclusion can be they are talking shit ?
Some maybe,but not everyone!

[Mark Bryan]

He never said Americas history is pristine. Another laughable example of you twisting words to fit your lies.


Israel is rightfully defending itself against a demented terrorist organization that is trying to wipe out Jews. A simple point that you refuse to admit. Denile is not a river in Egypt!!!!
THANKS DUDE! you are right on target!:thumbsup: :D

[joebhoy]

Israel is rightfully defending itself against a demented terrorist organization that is trying to wipe out Jews. A simple point that you refuse to admit. Denile is not a river in Egypt!!!!

So if Israel has a right to defending itself wouldn't Hezbollah also have a right to defend themselves?

Can you explain how Israel were defending themselves?

The Israeli solider's that were kidnapped were in Lebanon not Israel as first stated by the news.

Did Hezbollah fire thousand's of rockets at Israel before there army started to murder innocent civilians and trying to totally destroy there country just as there starting to get back to normal?

Doesnt Israel kidnap thousands of Hezbollah fighters and member of the Palestine goverment (which the people elected)? Same day the Israel soliders were killed didnt Israel kidnap a leading member of there goverment.

So please explain how Israel is defending itself?

One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

I wonder how they will do in the next election :dance:

Ah well another countrys assets frozen because the US doesnt agree with the free elections