9/11 TRUTH

[Perilus Jinx]

Planes did not bring down the towers!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1519312457137943386

rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap072906_theories.rm?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4258946892514662399&sourceid=zeitgeist

Get the word out...

[Breukelen advocaat]

It will be five years in Sept. 2006 since the towers were attacked by terrorists. There will be all kinds of memorial services and tributes. Why don't you just come to New York City and ask the people that were there that day what happened? You can easily find people that were in the Towers on 9/11 that still work in lower Manhattan. If you can't, or won't, do this, then you should not make statements about it because you don't know what you are talking about.

Nobody in NYC, at least nobody I've ever met, believes that anything other than terrorists in planes were responsible for the destruction of WTC One and Two. If you've never even come here, you won't know jack.

P.S. Please stop wasting valuable space on this board with the same old videos. They are not going to change anybody's mind.

9/11 conspiracy debunking site:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

[slowthestone]

I'm saying I believe it.

I'm saying it is overwhelmingly apparent through means of making things as cloudy as possible...of doing and saying things dramatically different than government agencies otherwise would...theres more than enough evidence of cover-up at hand to make the possibilty of domestic terrorists having a hand in Sept. 11th an entirely probable occurence.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Here is an interview, on Al Jazeera, with Dr. Wafa Sultan, a 47 year old woman from Syria, now living in Los Angeles, that speaks out against the Muslim violence and traditions. She was not well-prepared for the interview, but did a good job nonetheless. Of course, her life has been threatened continuously since this was aired earlier this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&search=wafa%20sultan


http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.a...050wmv&ak=null


There was a story in the NY Times, as well. They refer to here in the title of the story as a â??Muslimâ?�. Although she was raised this way, she gave it up after witnessing a murder.
NYTimesArticle (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1299733200&en=d13886daba5e586f&ei=5090&partner=rssushttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1299733200&en=d13886daba5e586f&ei=5090&partner=rssus)

March 11, 2006
The Saturday Profile
For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
By JOHN M. BRODER

LOS ANGELES, March 10 â?? Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.

In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.

"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.

Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.

She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.

DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that â?? if it is published â?? it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."

"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."

Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."

She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County.

After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.

BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.

An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.

In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."

Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.

Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.
"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."

She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.

The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.

Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.

One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."

Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.
"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."

[Bong30]

Planes did not bring down the towers!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1519312457137943386

rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap072906_theories.rm?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4258946892514662399&sourceid=zeitgeist

Get the word out...

STFU....

[Perilus Jinx]

watch the videos before you pass judgement...

[Bong30]

watch the videos before you pass judgement...
who do you think you are talking too?

we have had those videos pushed on us for ever............i have seen them

People have them in there sigs........... where ya been kid? summer school?



Perlis........ what you need to ask is......... Do the people making that video have an agenda?


Yes......

What could it be?

[Breukelen advocaat]

watch the videos before you pass judgement...


Fuck the videos. I've seen that shit hundreds of times already and I refuse to watch any more of it. I was about a half-mile away from Ground Zero, on Broadway and Rector Streets, as it was happening, watching it unfold. An architect that I met on the way home, on Sept. 11, before the towers fell, told me exactly how they would collapse, and he was right. Nobody from New York City believes the shit that people from this site are pasting here. Come to NYC and find out for yourself.

9/11 conspiracy debunking site:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

[graymatter]

Hey, BA and Bong, hats off to you two... must get tiring dealing with the same old idiot logic. Critical thinking is one thing, but paranoid reasoning is another.

Again, I suggest that Conspiracy Threads be moved to Spirituality!!!!

[graymatter]

I'm saying I believe it.

I'm saying it is overwhelmingly apparent through means of making things as cloudy as possible...of doing and saying things dramatically different than government agencies otherwise would...theres more than enough evidence of cover-up at hand to make the possibilty of domestic terrorists having a hand in Sept. 11th an entirely probable occurence.


OK, I'm going to indulge the conspiracy scenario for a moment. 9/11 was a government conspiracy (actually, executive conspiracy, because the U.S. Congress couldn't find its ass with both hands).

To what ends?

Was it to invade Iraq and be mired in the shit we're in right now? Or was it to let Israel take it on the chin and say, "enough! We're Israel and we're allowed to exist and we're going to go and kick some ass now."

Or, is it to let Israel set the stage for a larger war with Iran? You can draw all sorts of grand conclusions about 9/11 and they all can fit nicely with sinister intentions...

So, here's my question: If I'm a terrorist and I really want to fuck up the psyche and emotions of the west, what do I do?

I walk into a MacDonalds in Akron, Ohio and I blow myself up. But I do this in coordinated fashion with my Jihad folk that walked into a movie theatre in Fargo, North Dakota along with the people that hit a strip mall in Greenville, South Carolina, and the Friday night football game in Bute, Montana... and on and on until you have simultaneous, low level attacks in every one of the United States.

If you want to paralyze the United States with fear and panic, do it on a smaller scale but more widespread. To me this is the only valid point of the conspiracists. Why the fuck would Al-Quada wait for "high profile" targets when they could cripple us with multiple, low level targets... over and over.

[Breukelen advocaat]

OK, I'm going to indulge the conspiracy scenario for a moment. 9/11 was a government conspiracy (actually, executive conspiracy, because the U.S. Congress couldn't find its ass with both hands).

To what ends?

Was it to invade Iraq and be mired in the shit we're in right now? Or was it to let Israel take it on the chin and say, "enough! We're Israel and we're allowed to exist and we're going to go and kick some ass now."

Or, is it to let Israel set the stage for a larger war with Iran? You can draw all sorts of grand conclusions about 9/11 and they all can fit nicely with sinister intentions...

So, here's my question: If I'm a terrorist and I really want to fuck up the psyche and emotions of the west, what do I do?

I walk into a MacDonalds in Akron, Ohio and I blow myself up. But I do this in coordinated fashion with my Jihad folk that walked into a movie theatre in Fargo, North Dakota along with the people that hit a strip mall in Greenville, South Carolina, and the Friday night football game in Bute, Montana... and on and on until you have simultaneous, low level attacks in every one of the United States.

If you want to paralyze the United States with fear and panic, do it on a smaller scale but more widespread. To me this is the only valid point of the conspiracists. Why the fuck would Al-Quada wait for "high profile" targets when they could cripple us with multiple, low level targets... over and over.

For one thing, their communities in the U.S. would be burned down, and the Muslim residents persecuted. They would be running to the FBI and CIA with information just to get the vigilantes off their backs. If there are any attacks such as the ones you descibe, or worse, in New York City, I guarantee that the streets will run red with blood - mostly theirs.

I don't think that they could pull it off. Whoever it is in the Middle East that hides Bin Laden and people of his ilk would be exposed. Plus, not all of these guerrilla jihad attacks would be successful, and those that were caught would be compelled to talk.

It may happen in the future, though, if we don't nip it in the bud and stop them from coming here.

[birdgirl73]

As ever, Gray, I like the way your mind works. Your questions are valid ones. And that scenario makes chills run up my spine.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I experienced the "fear and panic" myself after 9/11, because I was close to it.

Believe me, after it wears off, you're ready for anything. Except for those that lost their jobs due to building destruction, or were severly injured or killed, people went right back to work and the financial district of New York was back in business within a week after 9/11. The bastards didn't expect that. :dance:

[birdgirl73]

Even those of us who weren't close to it physically experienced fear and panic. I did two thousand miles away in Texas.

Two of my bosses and two colleagues were up there that morning after having spent the night at the WTC Marriott. They were leaving the hotel for their event up a little further north of the WTC complex just about the time the first plane hit. They dodged falling debris and moved quickly out of the area, but one of those guys was traumatized enough that he has truly never been the same. They didn't get home for six days, and of course all their stuff in the hotel was lost. Our company had two people wounded at the Pentagon. It touched folks down here far differently from the way it did New Yorkers, but it was panic-inducing even remotely. At least for me it was.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Even those of us who weren't close to it physically experienced fear and panic. I did two thousand miles away in Texas.

Two of my bosses and two colleagues were up there that morning after having spent the night at the WTC Marriott. They were leaving the hotel for their event up a little further north of the WTC complex just about the time the first plane hit. They dodged falling debris and moved quickly out of the area, but one of those guys was traumatized enough that he has truly never been the same. They didn't get home for six days, and of course all their stuff in the hotel was lost. Our company had two people wounded at the Pentagon. It touched folks down here far differently from the way it did New Yorkers, but it was panic-inducing even remotely. At least for me it was.

We still have to fight just to get federal money in NYC to prevent terrorism. It's a disgrace. If we have to do it ourselves, we will, but the ragheads better be ready to meet Allah, or whoever they expect in the next life, because fear turns into anger - and that's something that a few have already experienced from us, which should serve as a warning of worse things to come.

The fire next time will not be small.

G'night!

[Oneironaut]

I think the funniest thing about this whole 9/11 conspiracy theory thing is that the conspiracy theorists don't even agree with each other. You'd think, if this was a serious investigation that was uncovering a real government conspiracy, that the same evidence would be discovered and re-discovered by multiple independent lines of inquiry, which would all lead to more or less the same conclusion about "what really happened". Did bombs bring down the towers, or was it really just the remote control planes? Did a missile hit the Pentagon, or a small military jet, or a remote control airliner, or was it the real airliners flown by people who were in cahoots with the government? Did the government support the Muslim terrorists and help them carry out the act, or did the government do it on its own then frame them?

All the conspiracy theorists are doing is anomaly hunting. They take a major event, pick a group they don't like to blame it on, then sift through massive quantities of data pertaining to the event in order to find anything remotely anomalous. Then they trot out the anomalies which "prove" that the common-sense explanation isn't right, and shove their alternative theory down your throat with no supporting evidence. All they think they need to do is disprove the "official explanation", and then they're right by default. And sadly, many people take the bait. When faced with all these supposed anomalies (and probably some pre-existing mistrust of the government), they will take the conspiracy theorist at his word just because nobody has taken the time to make a flashy video about why he is incorrect.

Their failure to provide positive evidence confirming the conspiracy claims instead of just negative evidence against the commonly held explanation is why they have such disparate theories. They don't actually find evidence that the conspiracy happened; they just find evidence that the event didn't happen the way we think it did. It's just like the thousands of Roswell and JFK conspiracy theories.

[halo]

I dunno. I mean there is a lot of compellin evidence. Im not entirely 100% sure that the govt was involved in the attacks but i do believe they had advanced knowledge. I mean they had to have had advanced knowledge to warn the politicians not to fly that day. (Sorry i forgot the names). Although i do think it is entirely possible that our government could do something like that.

[birdgirl73]

Oneironaut, you da man. What intelligent points you made up there.

[pisshead]

watch the videos before you pass judgement...

you've done what you can...some people are going to believe the 19 freedom hating muslim conspiracy theory no matter how little it explains of the whole spectrum of 9/11 issues...

[slowthestone]

I think the funniest thing about this whole 9/11 conspiracy theory thing is that the conspiracy theorists don't even agree with each other.

As evidence mounts, the consensus grows.

You'd think, if this was a serious investigation that was uncovering a real government conspiracy, that the same evidence would be discovered and re-discovered by multiple independent lines of inquiry, which would all lead to more or less the same conclusion about "what really happened".

No...what I think is that its awfully inconsistent with the investigation policies and practices of the principal agencies involved would allow evidence be destroyed. As in...sent to the scrap yard asap.

Did bombs bring down the towers, or was it really just the remote control planes? Did a missile hit the Pentagon, or a small military jet, or a remote control airliner, or was it the real airliners flown by people who were in cahoots with the government? Did the government support the Muslim terrorists and help them carry out the act, or did the government do it on its own then frame them?

Write your congressional representitive. Ask those same exact questions.

All the conspiracy theorists are doing is anomaly hunting. They take a major event, pick a group they don't like to blame it on, then sift through massive quantities of data pertaining to the event in order to find anything remotely anomalous. Then they trot out the anomalies which "prove" that the common-sense explanation isn't right, and shove their alternative theory down your throat with no supporting evidence.

The greatest lump of evidence to this patriot is the overwhelming LACK of physical evidence. As well as, things that have been covered-up, lied about (helps to have a bullshit detector). ie...Bush has a pattern of defending his actions with his idealogic rhetoric. To the point of several times him losing his controlled demeanor for all to see. The man never defends anything he did that day. More to the point...he doesn't go anywhere near the topic.

All they think they need to do is disprove the "official explanation", and then they're right by default.

Not me. I've no interest in debunking the official anything. I just can't help but notice the glaring inconsistencies and the ensuing acute sense of 'official explanations' having been manipulated.

And sadly, many people take the bait. When faced with all these supposed anomalies (and probably some pre-existing mistrust of the government), they will take the conspiracy theorist at his word just because nobody has taken the time to make a flashy video about why he is incorrect.

There are videos and publications that counter those that believe otherwise. They however, are flimsy explanations at best.

Their failure to provide positive evidence confirming the conspiracy claims instead of just negative evidence against the commonly held explanation is why they have such disparate theories. They don't actually find evidence that the conspiracy happened; they just find evidence that the event didn't happen the way we think it did. It's just like the thousands of Roswell and JFK conspiracy theories.

Again, this is where I point out the massive lack of physical evidence. The NTSB for example...every major aviation accident they investigate...the collect physical evidence, piece the plane back as best as can be done..and then house the evidence for future reference.

Flight 93 is nowhere to be found. And that is flat out...odd. They'll fish wreackage of the bottom of a body of water, keep it all in storage...inquiring about flight 93 though leads to dead ends.

[slowthestone]

I'm finding it disheartening that so called theorists are getting the same sort of treatment as an atheist would deliver to a Jehovah witness.

If you can't fathom the scope of what could have occurred that day, why attack those that can?

If you do not believe other people's interpretations of the evidence, and lack of evidence at hand...say you don't believe and leave it at that.

Breukelen...his testimony is based on...what an anonymous architect said that day. Had the person said 'No way a fire could do that'...what then would be his position?

Theres bound to be a joke that occurs to me later this day....'How many architects does it take to change Breukelen's mind?' sort of haha.

Another bit thats worthy of noting...'theorists' seem to have to defend their take on the matter...and are asked things like...'Where's your evidence?'

Thats a fair question...so I'd ask anyone not able and or wanting to not believe the likeliness of government involvement in distorting and manipulating physical evidence...where's your proof that someone hasn't perpetrated a cover-up?

[jamstigator]

You can't prove a negative. That's why there are still religions in the world: no one can disprove what the religions are based on, and those who are members don't care to prove the positive, or (most likely) can't.

So, no one can prove there *wasn't* a coverup. If there was, and someone wants us to believe that, then it's up to them to prove the positive, that there was a coverup, and provide credible evidence of such. I haven't seen any credible evidence of a coverup, personally. Sure, there's a bunch of whackos saying stuff, but that's pretty much always true.

And if there was a coverup, think how huge a conspiracy it would have to be. Conspiracies, even small ones, have problems staying secret. A conspiracy on the scale it would have to be for these theories to be true -- it's just not conceivable that it could remain secret. I mean, you'd have to have had thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, involved in it, and have none of them willing to talk, even with huge financial incentive to do so (book deals, movie rights, etc). Not plausible.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I'm finding it disheartening that so called theorists are getting the same sort of treatment as an atheist would deliver to a Jehovah witness.
Why limit to the Witnesses? All Religion is bunk.
If you can't fathom the scope of what could have occurred that day, why attack those that can?
The "conspiracy" is not impossible to fathom as existing, but in this case it was terrorists.
If you do not believe other people's interpretations of the evidence, and lack of evidence at hand...say you don't believe and leave it at that.
You could do the same thing, for that matter.
Breukelen...his testimony is based on...what an anonymous architect said that day. Had the person said 'No way a fire could do that'...what then would be his position?
I just found the man's prediction to be amazingly accurate, and it was before the fact. If he had said "If the Towers fall, it wasn't from the planes, it was bombs!", I can honestly say that I would say so. Whether I would have believed it is impossible to say. I've mentioned before that I worked in the Trade Centers, long before 9/11, and felt them sway, while riding the elevators past the halfway point, from wind alone. It didn't create much confidence in the stability had such an attack occurred, but we knew it wouldn't fall from winds alone.

Theres bound to be a joke that occurs to me later this day....'How many architects does it take to change Breukelen's mind?' sort of haha.
I believe that the terrorists did it. I've known that the Muslims are against freedom and democracy for decades, and their fanatical lunatic fringe is committed to destroying all remnants of these privledges and rights.

Another bit thats worthy of noting...'theorists' seem to have to defend their take on the matter...and are asked things like...'Where's your evidence?'
Thats a fair question...so I'd ask anyone not able and or wanting to not believe the likeliness of government involvement in distorting and manipulating physical evidence...where's your proof that someone hasn't perpetrated a cover-up?

Again, the burden of proof in on the believer. Of the many people that I know and talk to every day that live and work in lower Manhattan, nobody has ever expressed anything even close to the theories that are coming from areas like Utah, Texas, California, and other places far removed from the scene of the attack.
There are people, though, that have addressed these issues:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

[Breukelen advocaat]

This is the debunking link - apparently it was changed.
Debunking 9/11, Exploding the myths:
http://www.debunking911.com/

The facts will always defeat fiction, but some people will always believe the fairy tales.:thumbsup:

[Oneironaut]

As evidence mounts, the consensus grows.
So...what's the consensus?



No...what I think is that its awfully inconsistent with the investigation policies and practices of the principal agencies involved would allow evidence be destroyed. As in...sent to the scrap yard asap.
So, the reason there's no good evidence is that they destroyed the evidence. Ah yes, the perfect government conspiracy never fails to cover all its tracks because they are so perfectly competent at everything...:rolleyes:


Write your congressional representitive. Ask those same exact questions.
I don't really care much for congressional representatives, and their opinions aren't really the authority to go to when investigating this kind of crime. Go ask some firemen or architectural engineers what happened to those buildings.


The greatest lump of evidence to this patriot is the overwhelming LACK of physical evidence.
Patriot? Who's a patriot? Me? I'm a vehement anti-nationalist...

As well as, things that have been covered-up, lied about (helps to have a bullshit detector).
Sure, a healthy attitude of skepticism is a good thing. But you have to be careful to apply it equally to both sides.

ie...Bush has a pattern of defending his actions with his idealogic rhetoric. To the point of several times him losing his controlled demeanor for all to see. The man never defends anything he did that day. More to the point...he doesn't go anywhere near the topic.
Yeah, Bush is a moron with a crazy ideology. That doesn't mean he orchestrated 9/11. And if he started debating all kinds of stupid details about what he did that day, it wouldn't convince the conspiracy theorists. It would only give them more data to find anomalies in, and more importantly, would give them more credibility than they deserve. Continuing to debate with the conspiracy theorists only fosters the idea that there's something to the conspiracy claims. It would be like Bush providing evidence that he isn't a reptilian alien in order to disprove the nutcase (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) who claims he is.

Not me. I've no interest in debunking the official anything. I just can't help but notice the glaring inconsistencies and the ensuing acute sense of 'official explanations' having been manipulated.
Glaring inconsistencies? I take it you've been reading the anomaly hunters. What are these inconsistencies?


There are videos and publications that counter those that believe otherwise. They however, are flimsy explanations at best.
Yeah, there are some people out there trying to debunk this stuff. But the conspiracy theorists have been churning it out by the assload. And what exactly is it that makes their explanations "flimsy"?

Again, this is where I point out the massive lack of physical evidence.
You've just proven my point. All the conspiracy theorists offer is negative evidence, or a lack of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy. There is a massive lack of physical evidence that the government was in on this.

The NTSB for example...every major aviation accident they investigate...the collect physical evidence, piece the plane back as best as can be done..and then house the evidence for future reference.

Flight 93 is nowhere to be found. And that is flat out...odd. They'll fish wreackage of the bottom of a body of water, keep it all in storage...inquiring about flight 93 though leads to dead ends.
I think we can both agree that Flight 93 was no normal plane crash. This was a major act of international terrorism, where issues of national security are the government's top priority. You don't seriously expect them to make all the evidence public, do you? Nevertheless, you still haven't proven anything, or shown me any of these "glaring inconsistencies" you speak of. All you're basically saying is "their behavior looks a bit fishy, and there are some anomalies I can't readily explain, therefore they probably did it".

[Krogith]

#1 of course the towers swayed in the wind there made that way. There are Huge STEEL core collems and a fish net type network of cross beams of steel. It's made to flex like a tree.

#2 Take that same STEEL cross beam net-work and light a fire under it for 2 hours a bunch of jet fule ( wich was burned up with in 10 min's tops) and a bunch of office stuff. See if your stuiped little fire ( wich was obesiously Cooled off because there are video's and photos of people standing in the plane holes Waveing) Burns that STEEL net-work down. LOOK AT THE FACTS

#3 How come the goverment can;t even get a model nor a computer model to fall the same way the WTC towers fell? Because they even fell in a unsciencetific way, wich would only occure due to inploshion. The models didn't even collapse.

[Aaron385]

Wow krogith.. are you an engineer? Because I am.. and Ive blown up my fare share of buildings too (Iraq/afganistan).. and I have been to ground zero and I was in NY when the planes hit the towers...

Its not a conspiracy people.. there really are terrorists and people that hate americans just because. GO THERE... to the big whole in the ground.. and if you still dont believe it just tell the guy next to you looking down into ground zero and he will gladdly give you a push. :)

[BizzyStick]

#2 Take that same STEEL cross beam net-work and light a fire under it for 2 hours a bunch of jet fule ( wich was burned up with in 10 min's tops) and a bunch of office stuff. See if your stuiped little fire ( wich was obesiously Cooled off because there are video's and photos of people standing in the plane holes Waveing) Burns that STEEL net-work down. LOOK AT THE FACTS


Yeah your probably right but the towers fell down in less than 1 hour.

[slowthestone]

So...what's the consensus?
A covering and manipulation of available personal accounts, hard evidence, as well as not all that could be made available to the public has been made available.


So, the reason there's no good evidence is that they destroyed the evidence. Ah yes, the perfect government conspiracy never fails to cover all its tracks because they are so perfectly competent at everything...:rolleyes:
har :p


I don't really care much for congressional representatives, and their opinions aren't really the authority to go to when investigating this kind of crime. Go ask some firemen or architectural engineers what happened to those buildings.
I don't blame you there. However, it is just one of the many examples of a place where one could turn, that is as best as doing their own investigation as they can muster. Call the Airlines involved that day. Call any of the major cell network carriers in that region, ask them about that day. While you're at it, call smaller local airports that had people behind the wheel monitoring their own traffic what it is they recall about that day. Call the fire houses that responded that day. Maybe even find out for yourself standardized industry practices, such as...what sort of flight data recording device would be present on a United Airlines Boieng 757-222.


Patriot? Who's a patriot? Me? I'm a vehement anti-nationalist..
What sort of antinationalist are you? Moderate? Vehomently opposed to everything federalized?


Sure, a healthy attitude of skepticism is a good thing. But you have to be careful to apply it equally to both sides.
Indeedlydoo. There are, on both sides of this discussion, those that are easily swayed to agreeing with what others have determined...and merely echo the arguments of those that establish them. This is why I encourage people to mount there own fact finding investigation.

Don't just agree with others for sake of 'oh yeah! that does make it all clear!' type moments that people have. Get better learned on the things that went outside the norm by better learning the norm.


Yeah, Bush is a moron with a crazy ideology. That doesn't mean he orchestrated 9/11.Okay...I could LMAO at the notion of GW orchestrating anything other than the time he spends believing himself a tool of the almighty. I do though believe he may have...agreed with how to achieve a particular terror driven adgenda.


And if he started debating all kinds of stupid details about what he did that day, it wouldn't convince the conspiracy theorists. It would only give them more data to find anomalies in, and more importantly, would give them more credibility than they deserve. Continuing to debate with the conspiracy theorists only fosters the idea that there's something to the conspiracy claims. It would be like Bush providing evidence that he isn't a reptilian alien in order to disprove the nutcase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) who claims he is.
If one were to nevermind his office, and read him the way you would any other person...the man is never consistent along a story-line. He stutters and trips...can not keep the lie consistent...then practices avoidance with empty rhetoric, addressing nothing at all. The man's inability to deal with apprehension is writen all over his face, posture, body language. Watch his eyes if you're the sort that watches eyes for subtle indicators.


Glaring inconsistencies? I take it you've been reading the anomaly hunters. What are these inconsistencies?
I have watched various docustyle movies that are available to download. With arguments from either side of the 'what really happened that day?' debate. I have done the 'Hunt the Boeing' site. The sinking point for me though are my own recollections of what was going on with me that day that conflicts with those official releases weighed further with things I'm skilled with trade-wise regarding material specifications.

[attachment=o79144]

There is something entirely wrong with that picture.

I can go on and on about one inconsistency or another with you 1Iron, I won't though...you seem to me well rounded about having been in the discussion and reading of published materials from either side. So, you've either seen or read, and drew what you drew. Possibly missed something, and or just are ignorant or lacking exposure to some particular bit of info that would compell you to personally pursue it to its origins.


Yeah, there are some people out there trying to debunk this stuff. But the conspiracy theorists have been churning it out by the assload. And what exactly is it that makes their explanations "flimsy"?
The debunkers have debunkers ffs in this matter eh. It's worked its way into a veritable 'This is why we are right and they are wrong.' styled back and forth between the degreed professionals, industry professionals, accredited, qualified analysts and wagon jumpers in and around the debate of what occured that day that is known by an individual...vs what they don't know about what occured that day and what they should be concluding through other's interpretations.


You've just proven my point. All the conspiracy theorists offer is negative evidence, or a lack of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy. There is a massive lack of physical evidence that the government was in on this.
meh...I proved nada...this is the place where I encourage others to conduct their own digging for information, facts, truthes and things they otherwise were not aware of. I myself am abundantly open to evidence that would settle the matter and show me conclusively that a unspecified domestic group of individuals did not tamper with the things after the fact.


I think we can both agree that Flight 93 was no normal plane crash. This was a major act of international terrorism, where issues of national security are the government's top priority. You don't seriously expect them to make all the evidence public, do you?
I do expect it. Especially if it is a crucial or insightful thing.



Nevertheless, you still haven't proven anything, or shown me any of these "glaring inconsistencies" you speak of. All you're basically saying is "their behavior looks a bit fishy, and there are some anomalies I can't readily explain, therefore they probably did it".
Yep...but then...I've no want to prove anything. All I do is state my case here and there and encourage people to keep looking. I'm not much for thinking for others...just me ownself.

[Marlboroman]

Wow krogith.. are you an engineer? Because I am.. and Ive blown up my fare share of buildings too (Iraq/afganistan).. and I have been to ground zero and I was in NY when the planes hit the towers...

Its not a conspiracy people.. there really are terrorists and people that hate americans just because. GO THERE... to the big whole in the ground.. and if you still dont believe it just tell the guy next to you looking down into ground zero and he will gladdly give you a push. :)

WOW for an engineer thats been to atleast 2 different countries, and being at ground zero, you certainly speak elequently, and thoughtfull. Share some of your experiences with us about blowing up buildings in Iraq and Afganistan,Whats it look like when you blow up a building? I bet its pretty surreal. tell us what you did when the planes hit. How did you get out of the city?

As an engineer you would know that going to Ground Zero and looking into the hole does no more to prove either story than rideing the subway.

There isnt enough evidence to either prove false or negative either story about 9/11, thats just the reality of the situation. The majority of the steel was loaded up and sent away along with any evidence. I do remember tho that DNA testing went on for years looking for victims, so I'm guessing that the smaller debrie was sifted thru, but thats only a guess.

Any real evidence that would prove any conspiracy theory is long gone, such as, the molten steel at the bottom of the complex that burned for weeks.

That leaves an official story that has inconsistancies, no matter who looks at it, we may not want to admit it to yourself, but I think deep down, we all have a lingering question about something.

I think it boils down to faith. Which is to believe in something that you cannot logically prove, altho logically it makes sense to me that there is something more to the WTC than meets the eye, I dont have faith in it, it cannot be proven.

At the same time, I dont have faith that the planes where knocked down by fire, this leaves me with the unsettling feeling of not knowing. Ya, its not that good of a feeling, but it is what it is.

I was in times square when the WTC got hit, from there I walked across the 59th St bridge into Queens. Walked down Northern Blvd down past Corona till I came across an Open Taxi and got a lift further out onto LI.

That night I went back into the city to help look for survivors, rode into the site on a Police Paddy wagon, me and a good friend of mine, dug for close to 30 hours.

I carried many half filled body bags, found personal articals of victims, the one that struck me the most was a brief case with a PBJ sandwihich and some LIPA bills, that thought still fucks with my head.

I was there, I dug in it, I smelt it, I came home with it in my clothes on my body and in my head, I live in NY, and I am not sure what happened that day.

Could it have been the gold at the bottom? sure it could have, people have been killed for less.

Could it have been a reason to start global tyrrany? Sure it could have, tyrrany has to start somewhere.

Could it have been Terrorists? Sure it could have, they do seem to hate us.

Could it have been fires that took the building down? sure, after all, fire is an element.

This topic has been hashed out time and time again, by me, by you, and you and you. Im pretty sure we will never know what happened that day, unless of course, it is a plan for global tyrrany and someone defeats it, the victor gets to write the history.

Peace.

[birdgirl73]

(An off-subject insertion.) Hope things are going well for you today, Marlboroman. I've been working hard at sending positive mind-vibes in your direction and thinking about you and your kids a lot.

[Marlboroman]

(An off-subject insertion.) Hope things are going well for you today, Marlboroman. I've been working hard at sending positive mind-vibes in your direction and thinking about you and your kids a lot.

Thank you very much Birdgirl, you have a kind heart, quite kind indeed.
Those in your life, are very lucky, to have you in theirs.

[birdgirl73]

Well, that was just plain evidence that you have a far kinder heart yourself. No doubt about that. Thanks, hon!

[Aaron385]

WOW for an engineer thats been to atleast 2 different countries, and being at ground zero, you certainly speak elequently, and thoughtfull. Share some of your experiences with us about blowing up buildings in Iraq and Afganistan,Whats it look like when you blow up a building? As an engineer you would know that going to Ground Zero and looking into the hole does no more to prove either story than rideing the subway.

If you can go there and look at what happened without shedding a tear or at least having some emotion about the events that took place... thats what I mean.. its not about how it happened.. its about what happened.. Im sure we are only a few years away from some yahoo showing up on these boards saying there were never any world trade centers and they were just computer generated into old pics of new york.

Oh and last I checked I dont really give a fuck about formality here.. I speak, act, and write things differently when I am not at work because I believe the engineers who take their smug overcompensating vocabularies and formality home with them are.. simply overcompensating. I am good at what I do and I dont need to talk above or act above everyone else just to prove some kind of point. I get to worry about that shit when I am working.. here I relax. If you want to compair SAT/ACT scores, GPAs or.. salaries :D

Look.. Im not about to get in a pissing contest online about what I know.. I have had people tell me so many things that I have personally proven wrong about this stuff that its useless to continue.. you wont believe what I say anyways because Im a republican.. or maybe because I am a jew.. either way.. its futile. I will take an American diplomatic stance on this and say as long as your not planning on doing anything to harm my country I could care less what you think.

If you have a more respectful request that you would honestly like me to look into or explain.. please be more respectful and I will help you understand anything that may seem inconsistent.

[birdgirl73]

Hey, Aaron, I've always wondered what age range you're in. Just my curiosity. You're very passionate, which leads me to believe under 30, but I might be wrong. It's not related to anything specifically here but just to having read your threads since you came online.

[Perilus Jinx]

the first portion of this clip shows red hot metal being removed from WTC 6 weeks after the fact.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586&q=molten+steel+9%2F11


BYU Physics professor and founder of SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH Steven E Jones presents his presentation on the collapse of WTC Buildings 1,2, ... all » and 7 on 9/11. A very informative and scientific presentation that raises serious questions about the official account of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.

[Breukelen advocaat]

the first portion of this clip shows red hot metal being removed from WTC 6 weeks after the fact.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586&q=molten+steel+9%2F11
BYU Physics professor and founder of SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH Steven E Jones presents his presentation on the collapse of WTC Buildings 1,2, ... all » and 7 on 9/11. A very informative and scientific presentation that raises serious questions about the official account of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.

Steven E. Jones is a complete CRACKPOT! Even his fellow Morman professors at BYU have distanced themselves from him with regards to his 9/11 theories. Would you really trust the man that wrote the things below to give a scientific opinion on anything, especially something that he has a "special interist in"?

http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm

Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America
By Steven E. Jones

The Book of Mormon makes the bold statement that Jesus Christ, shortly following His resurrection, visited people in the New World and invited them to "feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am...the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. ... Ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..." (3 Nephi 11:14, 15:21). The Bible states that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" and that this witness of Christ would be "unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:3-8) and that Jesus would indeed visit "other sheep" (John 10:16).
Several years ago, an idea popped into my head: Would people in the New World who also saw Jesus Christ leave memorials of this supernal experience by showing marked hands of Deity in their artwork? So I began a search with the following hypothesis-to be tested: Ancient artwork portraying a deity with deliberate markings on his hands will be found somewhere in the Americas. A crazy idea, maybe - but wait till you see the artwork of the ancient Maya!
For more of this junk science, see the link.

[Bong30]

the first portion of this clip shows red hot metal being removed from WTC 6 weeks after the fact.

P4B, please post him your information on thermite..............


BYU Physics professor and founder of SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH Steven E Jones.

Lets see..........


Since Jones' paper has not been published in a scientific journal, there are some academicians, including some from Jones' own university, who question whether the article has been properly vetted by other experts in the field.[5] Some of Jones' colleagues disagree with his theory regarding the collapse of the towers. The BYU physics department has issued a statement: "The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones's hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty. Professor Jones' department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review." The Fulton College of Engineering and Technology department has also added, "The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones.".[6] <<<<<<<<<<<<<His own department is calling him a NUTJOB
D. Allan Firmage, Professor Emeritus, Civil Engineering, Brigham Young University[7], responded to an article from the Provo Daily Herald which detailed a presentation that Steven Jones had recently given, and remarked that after reading reports from FEMA, the American Society of Civil Engineers and from several other professional engineering organizations, as well as the Steven Jones report, that, "I find Professor Jones' thesis that planted explosives (rather than fire from the planes) caused the collapse of the Towers, very unreliable." Dr. Firmage also stated that, "Before one (especially students) supports such a conspiracy theory, they should investigate all details of the theory. To me a practicing structural engineer of 57 continuous years (1941-1998), Professor Jones' presentations are very disturbing.".[

Seams that Jones is nut job................ He is brainwashing you.......

shake it off....

[Aaron385]

bird girl - you are correct :)

But I still feel like I could have done more. I went to a conference last weekend where the new senior fellow to Condalissa Rices' (spelling whatever) advising staff was giving a speech.. talking about sucess and all this stuff he had done.. which included getting a phD from Oxford, leading a whole division in Iraq.. publishing a book on foriegn policy.. and being accepted as a senior advisor to Condis staff.. he then took questions and answered them better than I have ever in my life seen real questions answered.. as calm and cool as possible and they were definatly not staged questions.. but he answered them as perfect as if he was on tape being played back.. He gave up a basketball scholarship to join ROTC.. I mean this guy really had an impact on me.. like where I want to go with my life kind of impact..

At the end of the whole thing the guy that introduced him came out and told him to tell everyone how old he was... he said.. twenty seven.. and a STANDING OVATION ensued.

So I guess I have some catching up to do.. hehe.. Im not the best but seeing him and his achievements motivates me to strive for more.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Heres's a MUCH more reliable source for WTC studies, by a team of world renowned experts assembled by the National Institute of Standards and Technology: http://wtc.nist.gov/

NIST and the World Trade Center

The collapse of New York Cityâ??s World Trade Center structures following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was the worst building disaster in recorded history, killing some 2,800 people. More than 350 fire and emergency responders were among those killed, the largest loss of life for this group in a single incident.

In response to the WTC tragedy, the National Institute of Standards and Technology conducted a 3-year building and fire safety investigation to study the factors contributing to the probable cause (or causes) of post-impact collapse of the WTC Towers (WTC 1 and 2) and WTC 7; expanded its research in areas of high-priority need such as prevention of progressive collapse, fire resistance design and retrofit of structures, and fire resistive coatings for structural steel; and is reaching out to the building and fire safety communities to pave the way for timely, expedited considerations of recommendations stemmng from the investigation.

National Construction Safety Team for WTC Investigation

Shyam Sunder - Lead Technical Investigator

William Grosshandler - Associate Technical Investigator
Project Leader, Project 4:Investigation of Active Fire Protection Systems

H.S. Lew - Co-Project Leader, Project 1: Analysis of Building and Fire Codes and Practices

Richard Bukowski - Co-Project Leader, Project 1: Analysis of Building and Fire Codes and Practices

Fahim Sadek - Project Leader, Project 2: Baseline Structural Performance and Aircraft Impact Damage Prediction

Frank Gayle (MSEL) - Project Leader, Project 3: Mechanical and Metallurgical Analysis of Structural Steel

Richard Gann - Project Leader, Project 5: Reconstruction of Thermal and Tenability Environment

John Gross - Co-Project Leader, Project 6: Structural Fire Response and Collapse

Therese McAllister - Co-Project Leader, Project 6: Structural Fire Response and Collapse

Jason Averill - Project Leader, Project 7: Occupant Behavior, Egress, and Emergency Communications

Randy Lawson - Project Leader, Project 8: Fire Service Technologies and Guidelines

Harold E. Nelson - Fire Protection Engineering Expert

Stephen Cauffman - Program Manager


NIST Expert Consultants
Project 5, Reconstruction of Thermal and Tenability Environment

Valentine Junker - Project 8, Fire Service Technologies and Guidelines

Vincent Dunn
John Hodgens
Kevin Malley

[jamstigator]

Oh, Jones. Yeah, well, many of his own colleagues disagree with his assessments. In fact, most qualified engineers who have seen his 'evidence' disagree with his conclusions. That's probably why he hasn't submitted his theory and evidence to any normal peer-reviewed channel. Very odd. It's almost like he doesn't *want* his peers to review it. (Hah! A conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theorist!)

The fact that he believes that Jesus was resurrected and then came to Latin America for a visit, well, I'm not so sure his elevator goes all the way to the top. Sounds like a decent 'B' horror movie though: 'Zombie Jesus Goes To...Cancun!' I'd put that in my NetFlix queue immediately. Really! Even if it would make Mel Gibson mad.

(No offense meant to anyone who really believes that. I feel like a subtitle in a South Park episode.)

[Breukelen advocaat]

Well, there's a lot more to the Steven E. Jones story. His main "influence" for his 9/11 theories was Sarah Mene, who claims to have had "visions" of the events of 9/11 beforehand. She's the author of a book called There is No Death. Her website is suspended, but you can still get a cache of it on:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:LWGtq4xPjYEJ:www.thereisnodeath.com/+Sarah+Menet+There+is+no+Death&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

Jones' connection to Sarah Mene:
http://911truthseekers.gnn.tv/blogs/13331/Professor_Steven_E_Jones_9_11_influenced_by_Sarah_ Menet_MP3_Download

From the (suspended) website, There Is No Death:
Sarah Menet was pronounced dead but she did not die. Her near death experience (NDE) is one of the most extensive ever recorded. Sarah not only visited the beautiful spirit world, describing the people, their dress, activities, and buildings; but she also visited what could be called "hell" and describes the torment of those committed to that terrible place. She also received answers to many questions such as:
*Why are terrible things allowed to happen to good people?
*Is there a purpose to life here on earth?
*Why is it important to treat others with respect?
*Is it important to be good?
*Is there such a thing as deja vu?
*Is there such a thing as reincarnation?
*What are some of the difficulties that may lie ahead for us on earth?

Sarah was also shown several future events. She saw tall buildings in New York collapsing amidst smoke and debris and people running years before 9/11. (Bold Mine). This was the beginning of other calamities which were to include a great plague suddenly striking several cities in the United States, a nuclear war, and other devastating events.

This happened to her because Sarah, after a lifetime of abuse, difficulty and disappointment, had sought oblivion and death by attempting suicide. She found that it is always wrong to take one's own life, as it frustrates the purposes of life and brings on difficulty and penalty in the world beyond. However, she learned that there are different degrees of seriousness of such actions. She emerged from her experiences with a changed heart, released from the pain and bitterness of abuse and failure and willing to forgive herself and others, something that had completely escaped her before her experience.

[graymatter]

The fact that he believes that Jesus was resurrected and then came to Latin America for a visit, well, I'm not so sure his elevator goes all the way to the top. Sounds like a decent 'B' horror movie though: 'Zombie Jesus Goes To...Cancun!' I'd put that in my NetFlix queue immediately. Really! Even if it would make Mel Gibson mad.


That's too fuckin' funny! :thumbsup:

[birdgirl73]

bird girl - you are correct :)

But I still feel like I could have done more. I went to a conference last weekend where the new senior fellow to Condalissa Rices' (spelling whatever) advising staff was giving a speech.. talking about sucess and all this stuff he had done.. which included getting a phD from Oxford, leading a whole division in Iraq.. publishing a book on foriegn policy.. and being accepted as a senior advisor to Condis staff.. he then took questions and answered them better than I have ever in my life seen real questions answered.. as calm and cool as possible and they were definatly not staged questions.. but he answered them as perfect as if he was on tape being played back.. He gave up a basketball scholarship to join ROTC.. I mean this guy really had an impact on me.. like where I want to go with my life kind of impact..

At the end of the whole thing the guy that introduced him came out and told him to tell everyone how old he was... he said.. twenty seven.. and a STANDING OVATION ensued.

So I guess I have some catching up to do.. hehe.. Im not the best but seeing him and his achievements motivates me to strive for more.
That must have been neat to see! What was the guy's name? I'll bet we'll all see more of him. It's always nifty to see intelligent, articulate people speak extemporaneously and without stumbling, completely off the cuff, esepcially when they're so young. Brain power shows through!

While my political leanings are in the other direction, I have a lot of respect for Condoleeza Rice, as I do for lots of folks in the Bush administration. Condi is bright as can be, but I've noticed she's not always an at-ease speaker herself. Probably it's simply having to measure her words so carefully, which never fails to set speakers up for self-consciousness. Her coaches and writers haven't gotten her to the point where she's dropped the "ahs" and "uhs" when she's speaking. She'll get there, though, and I would love to see her teach sometime and watch what happens when the careful scripting is gone.

I'm going to look out for this senior fellow once I know his name. Sounds like a good professional model to aspire to!

[intangible child]

It will be five years in Sept. 2006 since the towers were attacked by terrorists. There will be all kinds of memorial services and tributes. Why don't you just come to New York City and ask the people that were there that day what happened? You can easily find people that were in the Towers on 9/11 that still work in lower Manhattan. If you can't, or won't, do this, then you should not make statements about it because you don't know what you are talking about.

Nobody in NYC, at least nobody I've ever met, believes that anything other than terrorists in planes were responsible for the destruction of WTC One and Two. If you've never even come here, you won't know jack.

P.S. Please stop wasting valuable space on this board with the same old videos. They are not going to change anybody's mind.

9/11 conspiracy debunking site:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

I see your looking for bin laden...........

Where's bin Laden........
For your future reference, here's what Bush has said about bin Laden at various points in time, depending on how he was trying to spin things:
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI
"...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...."
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availability with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
â??"Because he's hidingâ?¦" Bush, explaining why Osama bin Laden has yet to be captured. (Washington Post interview, Jan. 16, 2005)

[jamstigator]

Those 6'6" Muslims with attached dialysis machines and armies of AK-47-wielding bodyguards are hard to spot in a crowd!

[paparose]

9/11 was planned ten years ago by both Mossad and CIA. No true white americans and jewish were present in towers at 9/11.
It was a scenario which served both sides USA and Israel, with the rising patriotism after 9/11 Bush attacked on Iraq and created a kaos as we see now. Israel is also using that muslim terrrorist crap and killing innocent every day.

IT IS A DOUBLE STANDART WORLD, JUSTICE IS ONLY FOR STRONGS!!!!!
GOD DAMN JEWS AND THEIR DOGS

[jamstigator]

What's a 'true white American'? That's a phrase the neonazis and fascists tend to use. Looked like lotsa white folks were in the towers, at least to me. You saying they were black people wearing makeup? Aliens? What's your conspiracy theory? Hope it's something other than the same ol' boring and totally repudiated ones we've all seen.

BTW, an estimated 400-500 Jews died on 9/11 in the WTC buildings. The number would have been higher except many Orthodox Jews went to work an hour later because of the Selichot prayers recited in the days before the Jewish New Year.

Here's some of the last names of victims: Adler, Aron, Berger, Bernstein,
Cohen, Eichler, Eisenberg, Feinberg, Friedlander, Goldstein,
Greenstein, Horwitz, Jablonski, Kestenbaum, Kirchbaum, Kleinberg,
Levi, Levine, Mayer, Rosenberg, Rosenblum, Rosenthal, Sachs,
Safronoff, Schwartz, Shulman, Shwartzstein, Silverstein, Solomon,
Steinman, Temple, Weil, Weinberg, Weingard, Weinstein, Weiss, Zukelman.

You think none of those names refer to Jews?

paparose, your prejudice is clear. It's sad, really. When you're gone, will your kids tell others, "My dad was okay, except that he was a racist and a bigot"? Nice legacy you're working on there.

[paparose]

keep living in denial. I am a person that knows what is right and whats wrong. Could you tell me that what Jews are doing in Labanon and Palestin are right?
keep belive in what CNN tells you....
your children would say our dad only knew one side of the story he never cared the other part because he was prejudice....

[jamstigator]

Well, my children can say what they want (seeing as I have chosen not to have any). But if I had any, at least they wouldn't think that I was blind enough to think that the World Trade Centers were devoid of Jews and blacks and Spanish people and anyone not a 'true white American', whatever that is.

BTW, you didn't define what a 'true white American' is, and I'm sure many of us are interested in your definition, and why you chose to include the word 'white' at all.

As for whether what the Israelis are doing is right or wrong, well, that kinda depends on your perspective. If you're an Israeli who just lost his family because of Hezbullah rockets, I'm sure what they're doing seems very right. If you're a Lebanese civilian who lost his family in an Israeli airstrike, then I'm sure what the Israelis are doing seems quite wrong. Me, seeing as I don't like when terrorist organizations like Hezbullah kill Americans, which they have -- I'm okay with bombing them back to the Stone Age. Less people will die at their hands if all they have access to are sticks and rocks, and if they decide to attack Americans again, it'll be easier to defend against them.

I have to assume you're either not an American yourself, or you're anti-American, or something, seeing as you're basically defending a militant organization that has used terrorist methods to kill Americans.

[graymatter]

A true white American hates:

Homosexuals (aka, a bad name)
The United Nations
A woman's right to choose
Anti-war protesters
Evolutionary science
Universal health care
Questions about GW's military record
Immigrants (legal or otherwise)
The Indian guy at 7-Eleven (see Immigrants above)
Opinions of college kids (and college professors)
Noam Chomsky (well... they would hate him if they could read him)
African Americans (aka, another bad name)
The first amendment
Anyone that hates the second amendment

[Bong30]

A true white American hates:

Homosexuals (aka, a bad name) = Who cares
The United Nations = sucks
A woman's right to choose= every woman should have the right to choose
Anti-war protesters= cant they find something better to do?
Evolutionary science= Darwin end of story
Universal health care= dream
Questions about GW's military record= who gives a rats ass
Immigrants (legal or otherwise)= i love legal immagrints. illegal= take your ass home
The Indian guy at 7-Eleven (see Immigrants above)=My grandpa was 100% indian
Opinions of college kids (and college professors)= most are left wing commie, see ward chuchill, steve jones, and Jay beenish
Noam Chomsky (well... they would hate him if they could read him)= is a commie bitch
African Americans (aka, another bad name)= why do they wear thier pants like that?
The first amendment= defend it to the death
Anyone that hates the second amendment=use the second to save the first

Im a white American............. Sterotype much?

[graymatter]

Sorry, Bong, this list was compiled through extensive, objective, research and I'm afraid you don't qualify for "true" white american status. Please submit your request again in a few weeks... :smokin:

[Bong30]

Sorry, Bong, this list was compiled through extensive, objective, research and I'm afraid you don't qualify for "true" white american status. Please submit your request again in a few weeks... :smokin:
OK cool...........:thumbsup:

[Aaron385]

No true white americans and jewish were present in towers at 9/11.
It was a scenario which served both sides USA and Israel
GOD DAMN JEWS AND THEIR DOGS

Somebody say cooling off period? (please)

Like I said before.. its only a matter of time berfore people say their were no towers at all in new york and thw whole thing was just computer generated.. like nasa. :thumbsup: I want to know how you crash a 747 into anything in new york without killing jews! maybe the UN building.. hahaha..

Bird girl- the speakers name was.. darn i cant find the program.. i will keep a eye out for it.. so do I get to ask which part of the over/under 30 croud you belong too?? haha..

[birdgirl73]

Bird girl- the speakers name was.. darn i cant find the program.. i will keep a eye out for it.. so do I get to ask which part of the over/under 30 croud you belong too?? haha..
You bet you get to! I don't mind being asked my age and don't understand why some ladies are so gamey about that. I'm 44. Will be 45 at the end of September. Happy to be where I am on the chronology.

Well, keep an eye out for that guy's name because if you can find it, I want to keep my own eye out for him. I've just left a long-time job as a speechwriter, and I always like to see good speakers, particularly in politics/matters of state, and make guesses as to where they'll end up based on how they sound and look.

[Bong30]

You bet you get to! I don't mind being asked my age and don't understand why some ladies are so gamey about that. I'm 44. Will be 45 at the end of September. Happy to be where I am on the chronology.

Well, keep an eye out for that guy's name because if you can find it, I want to keep my own eye out for him. I've just left a long-time job as a speechwriter, and I always like to see good speakers, particularly in politics/matters of state, and make guesses as to where they'll end up based on how they sound and look.
BG.... im end of sept too...............libra?

My wife is a Libra like me, and trying to pick a place to eat is like watching paint dry....... we cant make up our minds......lol:D

[Breukelen advocaat]

When I'm asked what sign I was born under, I reply, "Room for rent".

:dance:

[Bong30]

When I'm asked what sign I was born under, I reply, "Room for rent".

:dance:

LOL the hospital i was born in is a drug rehab now........how funny.. or not

[birdgirl73]

!!LOL!! Yeah, when someone asks me "What's your sign?" I often find myself wanting to say "Yield."

Bong, I'm sorry to say I missed being a Libra like you by two days. I was born on September 21 of 1961. So I'm a Virgo. Was really supposed to be a Libra because I came four weeks early, but I was a little preemie Virgo. Not that I really believe that means much. I seem to go against all the characteristics they list for Virgos. I rather enjoy the fact that I was born in the year of the Buffalo, though, and seem to match more of those traits, at least the ones they list on the Chinese zodiac calendars at restaurants.

[LordSmaug]

Nobody in NYC, at least nobody I've ever met, believes that anything other than terrorists in planes were responsible for the destruction of WTC One and Two. If you've never even come here, you won't know jack.


9/11 conspiracy debunking site:
http://us.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

what are you talking about? in a zogby poll in 2004 48% of new yorkers believed that the government had prior knowledge of the attack and failed to act on it.

[Breukelen advocaat]

what are you talking about? in a zogby poll in 2004 48% of new yorkers believed that the government had prior knowledge of the attack and failed to act on it.
Nonsense. I know people that were actually in the towers that day and none of them believe that.

Here's some information about (among other things) the Zogby International telephone poll - which is very slanted. There is NO WAY that "Half" of New Yorkers believe that the government knew about the impending 9/11 attack. In any case, even if they did believe so, that does not mean that they think the government actually carried out the attacks and planted bombs in the buildings.

http://newsbusters.org/node/5681?from=90&comments_per_page=90
NYT Gives "Bush-Caused-9/11" Conspiracists a Respectful Hearing
Posted by Clay Waters on June 5, 2006 - 09:36.

A wacky group of conspiracy theorists who think 9/11 was an inside job on the part of the Bush administration met in Chicago over the weekend, and got a respectful hearing from Times Metro reporter Alan Feuer.

â??500 Conspiracy Buffs Meet To Seek the Truth of 9/11â?� made Page 1 of the Metro section, and that very headline gives the conspiracy-mongers the undeserved accolade of truth-seekers when theyâ??re actually just crawling for scraps of evidence â??provingâ?� that Bush, not radical Islamic terrorism, was responsible for 9/11.

Feuer explains: â??Such was the coming-out for the movement known as "9/11 Truth," a society of skeptics and scientists who believe the government was complicit in the terrorist attacks. In colleges and chat rooms on the Internet, this band of disbelievers has been trying for years to prove that 9/11 was an inside job.â?�

The text box puts this latest batch of conspiracists in the same box as other historical sceptics, to make them appear less wacky: â??Some participants see an American tradition of questioning concentrated power.â?�

Feuer writes: â??At the lectern Friday night, beside a digital projection reading â??History of Government Sponsored Terrorism,â?? Mr. Jones set forth the central tenets of 9/11 Truth: that the military command that monitors aircraft â??stood downâ?? on the day of the attacks; that President Bush addressed children in a Florida classroom instead of being whisked off to the White House; that the hijackers, despite what the authorities say, were trained at American military bases; and that the towers did not collapse because of burning fuel and weakened steel but because of a â??controlled demolitionâ?? caused by pre-set bombs.

â??According to the group's Web site, the motive for faking a terrorist attack was to allow the administration â??to instantly implement policies its members have long supported, but which were otherwise infeasible.â??

â??The controlled-demolition theory is the sine qua non of the 9/11 movement -- its basic claim and, in some sense, the one upon which all others rest. It is, of course, directly contradicted by the 10,000-page investigation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which held that jet-fuel fires distressed the towers' structure, which eventually collapsed.â?�

â??The movement's answer to that report was written by Steven E. Jones, a professor of physics at Brigham Young University and the movement's expert in the matter of collapse. Dr. Jones, unlike Alex Jones, is a soft-spoken man who lets his writing do the talking. He composed an account of the destruction of the towers that holds that â??pre-positioned cutter-chargesâ?? brought the buildings down.â?�

Feuer paints this rag-tag group in non-threatening, almost affectionate terms: â??[Group press director Michael] Berger, 40, is typical of 9/11 Truthers -- a group that, in its rank and file, includes professors, chain-saw operators, mothers, engineers, activists, used-book sellers, pizza deliverymen, college students, a former fringe candidate for United States Senate and a long-haired fellow named hummux (pronounced who-mook) who, on and off, lived in a cave for 15 years.â?�

Feuer brings up more palatable conspiracy theories, as if to shield the 9/11-mongers: â??Like a prior generation of skeptics -- those who doubted, say, the Warren Commission or the government's account of the Gulf of Tonkin attack -- the 9/11 Truthers are dogged, at home and in the office, by friends and family who suspect that they may, in fact, be completely nuts.â?�
Feuer even promotes evidence that â??Bush was responsible for 9/11â?� is a relatively mainstream view: â??It would even seem the Truthers are not alone in believing the whole truth has not come out. A poll released last month by Zogby International found that 42 percent of all Americans believe the 9/11 Commission â??concealed or refused to investigate critical evidenceâ?? in the attacks.â?�

But the pollâ??s co-author was David Kubiak itself, who spoke at the conference. And hereâ??s the question that led to that â??42%â?� answer.
â??Some people believe that the US government and its 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11th attacks, saying there has been a cover-up. Others say that the 9/11 Commission was a bi-partisan group of honest and well-respected people and that there is no reason they would want to cover-up anything. Who are you more likely to agree with?â?�
(Go here to see how slanted the poll truly is.) http://www.911truth.org/images/911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm

The 42% figure is far too high and speaks badly of the gullibility of many phone poll-takers, but the question itself is loaded to deliver the first, skeptical answer. The second choice, with the sarcastic tone about â??honest and well-respected people,â?� perks up knee-jerk U.S. cynicism of government -- the subtext is that only a chump would think the government is full of â??honest and well-respected people.â?� People donâ??t want to be seen as naïve or unsophisticated, so they feign doubt where previously none existed.

The Times has not been nearly as respectful when it comes to right-wing conspiracy theorists alleging perfidy in Democratic administrations. See Timesâ?? contributing writer (Times Select $ required) Philip Weissâ??s â??The Clinton Hatersâ?� for the February 23, 1997 edition of the Sunday magazine, on those who questioned the verdict of suicide in the Vince Foster case.
The Foster-suicide skeptics arenâ??t seen as lovable losers the way Feuer portrayed the 9/11 skeptics. Weissâ??s 9,000-word article refers to Clinton â??hatersâ?� six times, â??Clinton craziesâ?� 11 times and four â??far rightsâ?� for good measure. While Feuerâ??s tone is sometimes skeptical, he doesnâ??t see a single hater or crazy among a sea of people holding up signs declaiming the â??Bush junta,â?� or alleging that Bush instigated the destruction of the Twin Towers.

UPDATE: The folks at 911truth.org appreciated Feuer's story, linking to it yesterday and noting with approval that it was drawing attacks from the "rightist blogworld" (that would be, um, me).

"In the meantime allow us to share another bit of history, the New York Times' first recognition of our existence, which has been the most popular story on AOL News all day. Yes, there are the expected hits and snickers, but Feuer had to get it through his editors and to his credit he inserts enough meat and salient points to make our case quite clear, clear enough in fact to already draw attacks from the rightist blogworld. - Ed."

[graymatter]

Isn't there a big difference between having prior knowledge of a specific horrific event and prior knowledge that a horrific event will happen? Sorry, I'm just a little suspicious of Zogby's methodology....

[birdgirl73]

A polling question the way that one was worded completely provides the answer the poll wants before the respondent even responds.

That would never be allowed in legitimate sampling. Or even in focus testing. Heck, it wouldn't pass muster on a high-school sociology test (unless you had a really dumb class that had to be provided the correct answer ahead of time.) It's that much of a lead-on question.

[slowthestone]

Polling NY'ers about any Sept. 11th happenings is a convoluted thing.

1. They have the air of...'I was there! I know exactly what happened!'

2. Ny'ers are NEVER wrong.

3. Theres only two kinds of NY'ers...Mets or Yankees. No matter the topic, the two will most likely never agree.

4. They take the whole matter closer to heart. Instead of an attack on America, they confine to an attack on NY city.

5. Anyone insane enough to live in that stwey mess of people, steel, and concrete isn't qualified to answer any polls!

:rolleyes: + :p = :D

[Breukelen advocaat]

Polling NY'ers about any Sept. 11th happenings is a convoluted thing.
1. They have the air of...'I was there! I know exactly what happened!'
2. Ny'ers are NEVER wrong.
3. Theres only two kinds of NY'ers...Mets or Yankees. No matter the topic, the two will most likely never agree.
4. They take the whole matter closer to heart. Instead of an attack on America, they confine to an attack on NY city.
5. Anyone insane enough to live in that stwey mess of people, steel, and concrete isn't qualified to answer any polls!
:rolleyes: + :p = :D


â??Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius.â?�
Fulton J. Sheen, American cleric (1895-1979)

:thumbsup:

[LordSmaug]

I keep reading peoples comments on here who claim to be engineers. That's all you guys say "uh, yeah, i'm an engineer, and fire definitly took out the towers"

I'm not calling you liars i'm just saying that you're not answering any questions. I want someone to tell me exactly how the a hell fire brought down steel reinforced with concrete buildings.

I'm a real skeptic demanding to be convinced and so far the Conspiracy side is winning because no one else is showing me why the conspirators are wrong, they're just repeating that "they're wrong and stupid".

so go ahead and convince me.

[jamstigator]

Read the NIST report, it has more engineering info than your brain or mine can handle. Don't have the link handy, personally, but I read some of it a few days ago, and it was pretty convincing. I'm sure you can find it with google.

[thcbongman]

I keep reading peoples comments on here who claim to be engineers. That's all you guys say "uh, yeah, i'm an engineer, and fire definitly took out the towers"

I'm not calling you liars i'm just saying that you're not answering any questions. I want someone to tell me exactly how the a hell fire brought down steel reinforced with concrete buildings.

I'm a real skeptic demanding to be convinced and so far the Conspiracy side is winning because no one else is showing me why the conspirators are wrong, they're just repeating that "they're wrong and stupid".

so go ahead and convince me.

First you assume the fire was the main cause that brought it down. It was a structural collapse. Since the majority of the support beams were in the center, which is designed this way to sustain the high winds above. All it takes is a few floors to buckle down, and the supports in the center collapses like dominos. It it seemed like a controlled-demolition, it wasn't. The support beams were in the middle and the direction would be going straight down, which would seem like an implosion.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/metal.html#

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-2ExecutiveSummary.pdf

[Bong30]

First you assume the fire was the main cause that brought it down. It was a structural collapse. Since the majority of the support beams were in the center, which is designed this way to sustain the high winds above. All it takes is a few floors to buckle down, and the supports in the center collapses like dominos. It it seemed like a controlled-demolition, it wasn't. The support beams were in the middle and the direction would be going straight down, which would seem like an implosion.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/metal.html#

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-2ExecutiveSummary.pdf
Thank you for using your head...... using logic is good.:thumbsup:

[jamstigator]

There's also video of the outer walls buckling inward as the support beams give way and the entire structure begins to collapse downward from the middle, beginning the 'pancaking' process.

I would still say that fire brought it down though, by burning away walls and other supporting structures, putting too much pressure on the primary supports. The heat also weakened the supports (heated metal isn't as structurally sound as unheated metal, whether it melts or not). Or to rephrase: without the fire, I don't think the collapse would have occurred.

[LordSmaug]

I don't think that the collapse could have been caused by the fire. That leaves the only other two possibilities being that it collapsed because of a few floors "buckeling down" like bongman said or that it was caused by thermite or some other shit.

I did some research and basically I found out that there's absolutely no way that the center columbs where melted by jet-fuel. Steel melts at 2500 degrees F. The Jet fuel burns at around 425 degrees F and it would have all burned up within a minute or two leaving shit around the office to burn until the buildings actually collapsed. And you have to take into account the fact that these planes couldn't have been fully fueled. And steels critical tempurature is at 1,100 degrees F, where it loses about half of it's stability.

Remember that the North tower had an intense fire in 1975 and suffered no structural damage.

In any case, a fire couldn't possibly have brought down those buildings. It's scientifically impossible. I'm sure there's a logical explanation that the official report fucked up on. -the official report says that they collapsed solely because of a fire-

[birdgirl73]

I want someone to tell me exactly how the a hell fire brought down steel reinforced with concrete buildings.

I'm a real skeptic demanding to be convinced and so far the Conspiracy side is winning because no one else is showing me why the conspirators are wrong, they're just repeating that "they're wrong and stupid".
.
In addition to the NIST report, you can look up and watch the two very thorough documentaries that were done about a year after 9/11 in which they talk to the architects and engineers who built the towers as well as a wide variety of architects and engineers who did forensic investigations after the collapses. These aired on PBS and still run periodically on Discovery or the History Channel. They're called "Why the Towers Fell" and were done by "Frontline," which features the most well-researched documentary and in-depth news work available on TV today. There were two more excellent documentaries about the structural collapse and the events of that day that air periodically on Discovery and the History Channel. I will try to find their names as well. These documentaries go into impressive, scientifically backed detail about how the intense heat up in the area where the planes hit melted the structural supports in that section, causing them to bulge out and weaken, allowing the process of collapse to begin. I think you'd enjoy watching them, and I suspect documentaries in general and PBS in particular are probably not part of your regular TV repertoire.

[jamstigator]

They don't have to melt for them to be significantly weakened by heat, and the NIST report showed that the temperature reached more than 1800 degrees in pockets, plenty enough to substantially weaken them. I really think that, without the fire and its effects, the structures would have withstood the actual kinetic energy of the planes themselves, although the WTC buildings were designed to withstand impacts from somewhat smaller jets.

[Oneironaut]

I don't think that the collapse could have been caused by the fire.
Oh, well I guess that settles it.

I did some research
You mean you read a whole bunch of conspiracy theorist websites?

and basically I found out that there's absolutely no way that the center columbs where melted by jet-fuel.
Yup.

Steel melts at 2500 degrees F. The Jet fuel burns at around 425 degrees F and it would have all burned up within a minute or two leaving shit around the office to burn until the buildings actually collapsed.
First of all, jet fuel burns at 800°F to 1500°F, not 425°. And it wasn't the only thing burning...airplane seats, luggage, computers, office desks, and things like that continued to burn too. A lot of it was made out of wood and hydrocarbon-based plastics which can sustain very high temperatures for a long time.

And you have to take into account the fact that these planes couldn't have been fully fueled.
Not fully, but they had taken off from Boston and were headed for the west coast, so they were mostly full.

And steels critical tempurature is at 1,100 degrees F, where it loses about half of it's stability.
Right. The intense heat of the burning jet fuel, airplane parts and office materials was able to get the steel up to about that temperature, and the structure was unable to sustain the loss of stability.

Remember that the North tower had an intense fire in 1975 and suffered no structural damage.
But did it have a giant gaping hole in it caused by an aircraft smashing into the side of the building at full speed? Believe it or not, that kind of thing can cause some structural problems.

In any case, a fire couldn't possibly have brought down those buildings. It's scientifically impossible.
How so? You haven't shown me that it is.

I'm sure there's a logical explanation that the official report fucked up on. -the official report says that they collapsed solely because of a fire-
Well, if it was caused by the building being filled with tons and tons of explosives, that would have been easily detectable by the firemen. Were they all in on the conspiracy too?

[Bong30]

OK ok the fire............

what about the structural damage? watch the video again..... how they didnt fall on impact is beyond me.............like BA says it was just a matter of time.

[Aaron385]

I keep reading peoples comments on here who claim to be engineers. That's all you guys say "uh, yeah, i'm an engineer, and fire definitly took out the towers"

I'm not calling you liars i'm just saying that you're not answering any questions. I want someone to tell me exactly how the a hell fire brought down steel reinforced with concrete buildings.

I'm a real skeptic demanding to be convinced and so far the Conspiracy side is winning because no one else is showing me why the conspirators are wrong, they're just repeating that "they're wrong and stupid".

.."Jet fuel burns at around 425 degrees F"



So if Jet fuel burns at 425F how do planes get off the ground? They wouldnâ??t.. but if jet fuel IGNITES at 425F and then proceeds to burn MUCH hotter... then the plane would take off. Look into combustion turbine dynamics since I know you donâ??t believe me because I voted for Bush.

In all fairness.. I will say there are a lot of things in this world I have to take someone elseâ??s word for because I have no idea and not enough desire to find out the truth for myself.. like say Art.. I couldnâ??t tell you if one painting looks better than another.. but if your an Art person and you tell me.. I will take your word for it because its probably true. I donâ??t know the first thing about art appreciation and I donâ??t think I really ever will.

The moral of this story is.. pretty please.. with sugar on top.. if you continue to refuse to develop the background required to accurately interpret the very limited sources of information that somehow find their way to you.. let it go.

[Bong30]

Aaron....... they just hate Bush, and America so bad they just twist the truth to fit the hate....

[Oneironaut]

I hate Bush too, and the American government (not America...it's kind of hard to hate 300 million people I don't know, or the expanse of land between Canada and Mexico), but I'm not going to just parrot anything that portrays them in a negative light. I find it better to use logic and evidence to make my points. There are enough real reasons to hate Bush that we don't need to make shit up.

[Myth1184]

Morons all of you, Nowhere i the 9-11 Documents does it ever say that the Steel Melted! It got so hot that the steel buckled, which started a chain effect, But it did not melt. God you Tin Foil hat guys are gullable...

[eg420ne]

Bush & his Neo-Cons are the real enemy of the American people-- NORAD stand down orders were from Cheney, i guess them cavemen knew about the WarGames huh... The Official Story is but a Lie for the willing sheople to accept as fact..They say in their mind our government wouldnt do that, they love us to death......."GOVERNMENT IS NOT REASON; IT IS NOT ELOQUENCE; IT IS FORCE! LIKE FIRE, IT IS A DANGEROUS SERVANT AND A FEARFUL MASTER." - GEORGE WASHINGTON

NORAD Tapes Only Intensify Implausibility Of 9/11 Official Story
"These guys are smart," statement completely inconsistent with flight instructors description of hijacker's skills

It is clear that the exercises revolving around hijacked airliners scheduled for that morning created so much noise in the system that controllers could not pinpoint the positions of any of the real airliners to orchestrate any kind of intercept.

Errant 'ghost' aircraft such as 'Delta 89' and American Airlines 11 which controllers weren't aware had already crashed into the World Trade Center north tower continually confuse NORAD officials and at one point after Flight 77 has hit the Pentagon, they even intercept their own aircraft.

Several exchanges between NORAD personnel outline the confusion that the drills caused and delayed the response of air defense procedures.

08:37:52
BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise?
BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

8:37:56
WATSON: What?
DOOLEY: Whoa!
WATSON: What was that?
ROUNTREE: Is that real-world?
DOOLEY: Real-world hijack.
WATSON: Cool!

"When they told me there was a hijack, my first reaction was 'Somebody started the exercise early,'" said mission-crew commander Major Kevin Nasypany.


The exercise of running numerous war games where planes would be mock-hijacked and crashed into high-profile targets is dismissed as a coincidence by the writer Michael Bronner, with no discussion of the astronomical improbability of the two scenarios colliding, in alliance with similar same target, same time drills which took place during the London bombings.

The tapes betray the fact that NORAD's attention to the fact that Flight 77 was heading towards Washington are virtually non-existent as they struggle to gain authorization to shoot down stray aircraft.

Despite the lies of Cheney in his subsequent TV interviews and statements given under oath to the 9/11 Commission, those shoot down orders never arrived, even after United 93 had crashed in Pennsylvania.

While NORAD struggled to comprehend what exactly was heading towards Washington, in Dick Cheney's PEOC bunker things were apparently a lot clearer. The testimony of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta is brought under more scrutiny by the NORAD tapes.

How could Cheney know exactly what was heading for Washington and give clear orders for its path to remain clear, while the very people mandated to defend the skies of America scrambled desperately to make sense of the chaos and get fighters in the positions they needed to be?



"During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out."

And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?"

"And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony to the 9/11 Commission, May 23, 2003.


The impotence of NORAD in only having access to four fighters to cover the entire eastern seaboard of the US contradicts the fact that 35 USAF bases alone were within range of the hijacked flights but were never called upon or given as an option.

The quick response by NORAD to the golfer Payne Stewart's off-course aircraft in 1999 is often cited as contradicting with procedure on 9/11. In addition, there were 67 occasions where fighters were scrambled to intercept errant aircraft in the 9 month period before 9/11.

Other segments of the tapes only raise more questions and do not provide any answers to long-standing mysteries.

- How did the admittedly incompetent pilot hijackers turn off the transponders of all the aircraft? A procedure, according to professionals that we have talked to, is often beyond the capability of even the most experienced commercial pilots?

- In one portion of the tapes, NORAD personnel are heard to marvel at the excellence of the hijacker's strategy.

9:23:15
ANDERSON: They're probably not squawking anything [broadcasting a beacon code] anyway. I mean, obviously these guys are in the cockpit.
NASYPANY: These guys are smart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, they knew exactly what they wanted to do.

These guys are smart? Contrast this statement with those of the flight instructors when describing the skills of the alleged hijackers.

Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."

Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."

Marwan Al-Shehhi: â??He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.â?�

Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.â?�



Do the descriptions afforded to these men square with the chaos that their skills in evading detection brought to the NORAD control room? Or were the planes being controlled by some other means than morons who could barely get single engine Cessna's off the ground - but who apparently ran the world's most sophisticated air defense ragged for hours?

Does the panic that envelops the NORAD control room and the fear that new reports of hijacked planes will never end, coupled with speculation that anything (the White House and the Statue of Liberty are mentioned) could be a target, corroborate with the actions of President Bush's security detail?

Reports of numerous stray aircraft, bombs on planes, and truck bombs at the Pentagon fly and yet President Bush sits calmly in a Florida classroom apparently safe in the knowledge that he is not a target. Why wasn't the President hurried into the nearest underground bunker as soon as Card told him "America is under attack," unless Bush's people were confident of the exact targets beforehand, and that Bush himself wasn't one of them?

The writer of the Vanity Fair piece has taken the NORAD tapes on their own and attempted to forward them as proof that the official version of events is largely accurate, minus the proven lies about the non-authorization of shoot downs.

The problem is that the behavior of the errant planes, when overlaid with the activities of Cheney and Bush, standard intercept operating procedure (minus the intentional confusion of an untold number of blips from the NORAD drills) and the incompetent hijackers, simply does not corroborate.

Furthermore, the tape portions amount to a total of no more than 20 minutes of hand-picked cmmunications and it is admitted that the discussions of the higher brass are not recorded due to secrecy. Nothing is mentioned of the six tapes of air traffic control communications with the hijacked airliners that were deliberately destroyed by FAA managers.

The purpose of the Vanity Fair and a similar Washington Post article is to whitewash the entire affair and blame 9/11 on the incompetence of NORAD.

The NORAD tapes, far from dissolving so-called "conspiracy theories," only serve to support the weight of evidence that points directly towards a deliberate plan on September 11, 2001 to make the air defenses of the United States impotent and to enable the planes to find their targets.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/020806tapesintensify.htm

[Psycho4Bud]

Prison Planet eg??? I told ya, when ya walk on that thin line you could slip!

I love how A.J. bitches about groups like Freemasons but then quotes our founding fathers:

America's first President, George Washington, had been a Mason. So were many other Founding Fathers, including Ethan Allen, John Paul Jones, Paul Revere, John Hancock, and Benjamin Franklin. Eight of the 56 signatures on the Declaration of Independence belonged to avowed Masons, as well as nine on the Constitution.
http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/freemasonry/

Watched a show on History channel the other night about this ........very interesting!

Have a good one Mr. Cheney...LOL!:thumbsup:

[birdgirl73]

Morons all of you, Nowhere i the 9-11 Documents does it ever say that the Steel Melted! It got so hot that the steel buckled, which started a chain effect, But it did not melt. God you Tin Foil hat guys are gullable...
Actually, I was the one who used the word "melted," and indeed, I should have said it heated them to the point of weakness. Good catch. That doesn't mean I'm a moron or that any of these others are, either. We're only morons in your eyes because you can't--and never will be able to--persuade us with your intelligence or faulty logic or news sources.

Speaking of intelligence, I'll go head to head with you on that anyday. Bring me as many IQ tests, debates, tests of logic, mensa puzzles, brain-twisters, conundrums, intelligence tests, word analogies, or any other non-prison-planet-created testing materials or tests as you want. You'll, of course, need to promise to take them alongside me.

We'll separate the moron out right away.

[Fengzi]

Aaron....... they just hate Bush, and America so bad they just twist the truth to fit the hate....
Hey now, I'm a Bush hater but still think the twin towers were brought down by the fact that large pieces of flying metal, moving at a high rate of speed, and containing large amounts of a volitile flamable liquid, slammed into them.
I just guess that my hatered of Bush hasn't blinded me the way some people's hatred of Al Qaeda has blinded them to the fact that Bush is an idiot. :D

[Fengzi]

BG.... im end of sept too...............libra?

My wife is a Libra like me,

I knew there was something about that know-it-all, can do no wrong, attitude of yours that reminded me of my wife. ;)

[Bong30]

I knew there was something about that know-it-all, can do no wrong, attitude of yours that reminded me of my wife. ;)
Fengzi....is that what Libra are known for? i ment my wife and i cant make up our minds.

know it all? uuhhh no

Can do no wrong? Uhh, i fuck up every day. I am human.

is you wife a Libra?

[Oneironaut]

Are you actually suggesting that one's personality is determined by what constellation our local star appears to be in from our perspective when one happens to exit one's mother's vagina? That, had I exited my mother's vagina five days before I actually did, I would have a completely different set of personality traits, because the Sun would have been on the other side of an imaginary line we've drawn in the sky? This astrology stuff is even weirder and harder to believe than the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

[jamstigator]

I think birdgirl just pwned Myth1184. ;)

Hah, can't believe I'm over 40 and used the word 'pwned'. I guess I'm still a kid at heart!

[Fengzi]

Are you actually suggesting that one's personality is determined by what constellation our local star appears to be in from our perspective when one happens to exit one's mother's vagina? That, had I exited my mother's vagina five days before I actually did, I would have a completely different set of personality traits, because the Sun would have been on the other side of an imaginary line we've drawn in the sky? This astrology stuff is even weirder and harder to believe than the 9/11 conspiracy theories.
True, True, True. Still.....makes more sense than anarchy ;)

[graymatter]

Speaking of intelligence, I'll go head to head with you on that anyday. Bring me as many IQ tests, debates, tests of logic, mensa puzzles, brain-twisters, conundrums, intelligence tests, word analogies, or any other non-prison-planet-created testing materials or tests as you want. You'll, of course, need to promise to take them alongside me.

We'll separate the moron out right away.

SMOKIN' .... SMO - KIN'

But he doesn't ever take a counter-punch and stay in the ring, birdgirl... which may actually show signs of intelligence, seeings who he's up against... Peace, baby!

[Aaron385]

Bird Girl- I was doing laundry and I found the program... the guys name is-

Captain Wes Moore

The title of his speech was "Using Your Internal Power to Change Your External World"

In the whole weekend with about a dozen different speakers there were only three standing ovations.. Wes got all three of them. He deserved it too.. truely an amazing human being.. and let me say that I am not easily impressed.

[CanGro]

Im not gonna bother reading through half the stuff on this topic nor am i gonna reply to a lot of it. This i am going to put accross though.

Q1:Has anyone acctually ever seen steel buckle under xtreme heat

A1:Yes i have, when steel is heated up to an xtreme where it is so hot that it buckles, it buckles to the left or the right. It doesnt compact into its self, in other words goes straight down.

Now how many of you did the copper and steel buckle test in science, cause i know for 1 i did and i remeber the effects of the way it bends. For steel to colapse in on its self it has to be heated to a point that its glowing so hot that it becomes a liquid. Now im affraid to say the way those buildings collapsed is not a direct link to fuel or any other substance burning. For a building of such magnitude to acctually colapse on itself the steel structurs have to have some sort of chemical reaction for the steel to split and collapse.

Now my heart goes out to all those that lost family and friends in the 9/11 incedent.

There will always be conspiracy theroys in everything and the truth will never come out american history has proven that time and time again.

[Oneironaut]

Sometimes, believe it or not, conspiracy theories do go away. Hardly anybody believes the conspiracy theories about Abraham Lincoln's assassination anymore.

[Krogith]

Im not gonna bother reading through half the stuff on this topic nor am i gonna reply to a lot of it. This i am going to put accross though.

Q1:Has anyone acctually ever seen steel buckle under xtreme heat

A1:Yes i have, when steel is heated up to an xtreme where it is so hot that it buckles, it buckles to the left or the right. It doesnt compact into its self, in other words goes straight down.

Now how many of you did the copper and steel buckle test in science, cause i know for 1 i did and i remeber the effects of the way it bends. For steel to colapse in on its self it has to be heated to a point that its glowing so hot that it becomes a liquid. Now im affraid to say the way those buildings collapsed is not a direct link to fuel or any other substance burning. For a building of such magnitude to acctually colapse on itself the steel structurs have to have some sort of chemical reaction for the steel to split and collapse.

Now my heart goes out to all those that lost family and friends in the 9/11 incedent.

There will always be conspiracy theroys in everything and the truth will never come out american history has proven that time and time again.

another good point

[Oneironaut]

Q1:Has anyone acctually ever seen steel buckle under xtreme heat

A1:Yes i have, when steel is heated up to an xtreme where it is so hot that it buckles, it buckles to the left or the right. It doesnt compact into its self, in other words goes straight down.

Now how many of you did the copper and steel buckle test in science, cause i know for 1 i did and i remeber the effects of the way it bends. For steel to colapse in on its self it has to be heated to a point that its glowing so hot that it becomes a liquid. Now im affraid to say the way those buildings collapsed is not a direct link to fuel or any other substance burning. For a building of such magnitude to acctually colapse on itself the steel structurs have to have some sort of chemical reaction for the steel to split and collapse.
First of all, I think I'm going to trust the engineers and firemen over someone who writes the word "extreme" as "xtreme". You can't just equate some high school experiment with heated steel trusses inside a damaged structure that has thousands of tons of material on top of it, and claim to know definitively that all the engineers' explanations have been disproven. If you actually understood the basic architecture of the towers, you would readily be able to see why they could not have fallen any way but straight down.

http://www.debunking911.com/towers.htm
(Thanks to Breukelen advocaat for the link)

[paparose]

Well, my children can say what they want (seeing as I have chosen not to have any). But if I had any, at least they wouldn't think that I was blind enough to think that the World Trade Centers were devoid of Jews and blacks and Spanish people and anyone not a 'true white American', whatever that is.

BTW, you didn't define what a 'true white American' is, and I'm sure many of us are interested in your definition, and why you chose to include the word 'white' at all.

As for whether what the Israelis are doing is right or wrong, well, that kinda depends on your perspective. If you're an Israeli who just lost his family because of Hezbullah rockets, I'm sure what they're doing seems very right. If you're a Lebanese civilian who lost his family in an Israeli airstrike, then I'm sure what the Israelis are doing seems quite wrong. Me, seeing as I don't like when terrorist organizations like Hezbullah kill Americans, which they have -- I'm okay with bombing them back to the Stone Age. Less people will die at their hands if all they have access to are sticks and rocks, and if they decide to attack Americans again, it'll be easier to defend against them.

I have to assume you're either not an American yourself, or you're anti-American, or something, seeing as you're basically defending a militant organization that has used terrorist methods to kill Americans.

as for the trade center u can believe whatever u want to believe in...
my info comes from inside....
"sending back to the stone age" pretty word from someone that comes from a "civilized" country.....Dont worry pal I know there are millions of healthy minded Americans think otherwise, your statement only shows your class.

haha ha thats what u come up with? I am an anti-american? U wanna build up hate against me at this board, childish...Well my relatives are but I am not. I have nothing against americans but if I see something wrong wherever it takes places I criticize, after all I have freedom of speech right? in short I am against of every false movement on earth wherever it comes from.

look pal it is obvious you dont know whats going around the middle east. I am not american nor middle eastern but I studied a lot and spent more time with both americans ( 6 years would be enough? ) and people from that geography. I know my shit.
People dont hate american citizens, they hate politicians and their sick plans . They hate that UN only serves strongs, UN could not say a word against the massacree in Lebanon because UN was formed by USA and sponsored by USA. Do you think USA would let UN to make a move against Israel, hahaha only in dreams. UN, IMF they all serve the stronger....IMF lands money with greater interest rate at the end you cant even pay your annual interest, thats how IMF operates, land money to destroy. another pretty invention of jews, as credit cards. People hate emperialism and capitalism that suck their blood out, hate the system not the people.
Lets see where USA has been so far?
Afganisthan. Kabil used to be a pretty developped city now just ruins and kaos. ( usa gave them freedom ;-) )
Iraq. same story, no more beautiful bagdat. kaos, almost civil war. (again US was there for so called freedom)
same story goes for Lebanon, Beirut used to be the Paris of middle east now people are barely living there. Thanx to israelis you make the world a better place to live in. Not only the bombs they were suffering from but also the shortage of food, gas, power, medical help and so on. Dont worry about jews in israel my friend they are all hiding in their comfy bunkers since day 1.

Accepting your own fault is a virtue which u will never have my friend. USA made a mistake in Iraq, your president lied to you. wake up, it is all about scenarios of big brothers. THE GREATER ISRAEL DREAM is being played and USA supports their dream in any means. I dont understand how a 7 million country can manipulate a 300 million country and use its soldiers to open up spaces for them. your man is dieing for jews my friend, wake up.

Israel needs water and that water is located in SE Turkey. They are so deperatley in need of water. In order to get that water first you need to clear up iraq, then syria and finally turkey. Iraq is checked, syria and turkey next...thanx to american soldiers that give up their lives....
To provoke kurdish (a tribe that lives in NW Iran, N iraq, N Syria and SE turkey) Jews created a story....I am not sure about the numbers but jews say there are 14 jewish tribes, 13 tribes are present but 14th is missing. Now they say 14th tribe is the kurds!!! wow what an outstanding discovery...all of the sudden they found them!!! congratulations...
Water is located where kurds and turks live together in SE. past 15 years a terrorist organization called PKK has been active in Turkey and responsible of killing 50.000 people, including woman, elderly and babies. Armed by Israelis, coached by mossad. As the English did in 1920s (arabs stabbed ottoman turks from behind and allied with English as a result the map of middle east was changed and a new country was born.... Israel.....) jews are provoking kurdish terrorists for separation of land so that a route to water could be open for them.
In 1994 I saw a map in a University in USA that gives SE of turkey to kurds and a non recognized country name was there " kurdistan" When I informed the geograpghy professor about it he made a research and told me that the map was wrong there was no such country called kurdistan. That "kurdistan" added map was distrubuted every school in entire USA, just to start up the plan .Now we see that map everywhere!!! suprise suprise USA had given a land to kurds before even turks knew, a part of iran is gone, a part of iraq is gone wow, what a reshaping.....
See my friend plans are made 10- 20 years in advance and year by year you get closer....and the next big war is gonna be over water not oil. Global warming is not a lie my friend it is happening. Guess what? jews emptied their wells, they are filtering sea water, they are occupying goran hills to dig more wells. water is important in that geography my friend.
let me tell you how the rest of the game is gonna be played.
Turks will look like the invador of kurdish land and to free those poor kurds israel will use American military power ( hey their soldiers are too valuable, even a reason to open a war, well americans and arabs can die as long as jews are alive and healthy)
Thats the plan, I doubt it will work but it is gonna be played anyway.

Who would benefit a war between Christians and Muslims? Think about it.

[CanGro]

First of all, I think I'm going to trust the engineers and firemen over someone who writes the word "extreme" as "xtreme". You can't just equate some high school experiment with heated steel trusses inside a damaged structure that has thousands of tons of material on top of it, and claim to know definitively that all the engineers' explanations have been disproven. If you actually understood the basic architecture of the towers, you would readily be able to see why they could not have fallen any way but straight down.

http://www.debunking911.com/towers.htm
(Thanks to Breukelen advocaat for the link)
First i have poor grammer skils so i shorten down words, secondly i know esactly how the twin towers where built as i was doing an archietecture degree at uni but got bored of it.

under xtreme heat steel buckles to the left or the right, it doesnt colapse under its own weight.......

Have you never seen how buildings collapse under exsplosion and the time it takes for them to colapse????????

[Breukelen advocaat]

First i have poor grammer skils so i shorten down words, secondly i know esactly how the twin towers where built as i was doing an archietecture degree at uni but got bored of it.

under xtreme heat steel buckles to the left or the right, it doesnt colapse under its own weight.......

Have you never seen how buildings collapse under exsplosion and the time it takes for them to colapse????????

Well, I met a professional architect on 9/11, on the NYC subway, that told me how the towers were built and that that they would collapse straight down. He was absolutely correct.

http://wtc.nist.gov/

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

[jamstigator]

I don't really understand how anyone believes any of these conspiracy theories. Gravity pulls stuff downward, toward the center of the Earth. Fire and gargantuan amounts of kinetic energy damage structural integrity. The WTC towers fell down. They didn't explode. They didn't really implode all that much either, and there are lots of rational non-conspiratorial hypotheses about why the bit of implosion that did happen occurred (fire eats oxygen, causing a vacuum, the main central supports collapsing downward and pulling the outer walls inward, and so on).

I mean, don't take my word for it. I'm just a dude. But I found that those guys with doctorates in engineering and metallurgy that were consulted for the NIST study were pretty credible. If they were just some dudes, well, I wouldn't be as apt to believe them, but a doctorate in their field and 30 or 40 years of experience, okay, I have to take them seriously. Especially when almost all of them agree.

[Oneironaut]

So what, the tower was supposed to have snapped and fallen over to the side? That doesn't really seem very likely, given the way the building was constructed. You're ignoring the important role of the central core column, which bore most of the weight of the building.

http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm

[smitty420]

anyone that believes in a 911 conspiracy please go here http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[eg420ne]

Bush & his Neo-Cons are the real enemy of the American people-- NORAD stand down orders were from Cheney, i guess them cavemen knew about the WarGames huh... The Official Story is but a Lie for the willing sheople to accept as fact..They say in their mind our government wouldnt do that, they love us to death......."GOVERNMENT IS NOT REASON; IT IS NOT ELOQUENCE; IT IS FORCE! LIKE FIRE, IT IS A DANGEROUS SERVANT AND A FEARFUL MASTER." - GEORGE WASHINGTON

NORAD Tapes Only Intensify Implausibility Of 9/11 Official Story
"These guys are smart," statement completely inconsistent with flight instructors description of hijacker's skills

It is clear that the exercises revolving around hijacked airliners scheduled for that morning created so much noise in the system that controllers could not pinpoint the positions of any of the real airliners to orchestrate any kind of intercept.

Errant 'ghost' aircraft such as 'Delta 89' and American Airlines 11 which controllers weren't aware had already crashed into the World Trade Center north tower continually confuse NORAD officials and at one point after Flight 77 has hit the Pentagon, they even intercept their own aircraft.

Several exchanges between NORAD personnel outline the confusion that the drills caused and delayed the response of air defense procedures.

08:37:52
BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise?
BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

8:37:56
WATSON: What?
DOOLEY: Whoa!
WATSON: What was that?
ROUNTREE: Is that real-world?
DOOLEY: Real-world hijack.
WATSON: Cool!

"When they told me there was a hijack, my first reaction was 'Somebody started the exercise early,'" said mission-crew commander Major Kevin Nasypany.


The exercise of running numerous war games where planes would be mock-hijacked and crashed into high-profile targets is dismissed as a coincidence by the writer Michael Bronner, with no discussion of the astronomical improbability of the two scenarios colliding, in alliance with similar same target, same time drills which took place during the London bombings.

The tapes betray the fact that NORAD's attention to the fact that Flight 77 was heading towards Washington are virtually non-existent as they struggle to gain authorization to shoot down stray aircraft.

Despite the lies of Cheney in his subsequent TV interviews and statements given under oath to the 9/11 Commission, those shoot down orders never arrived, even after United 93 had crashed in Pennsylvania.

While NORAD struggled to comprehend what exactly was heading towards Washington, in Dick Cheney's PEOC bunker things were apparently a lot clearer. The testimony of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta is brought under more scrutiny by the NORAD tapes.

How could Cheney know exactly what was heading for Washington and give clear orders for its path to remain clear, while the very people mandated to defend the skies of America scrambled desperately to make sense of the chaos and get fighters in the positions they needed to be?



"During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out."

And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?"

"And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony to the 9/11 Commission, May 23, 2003.

[jamstigator]

Hah, that link (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons) was really pretty funny! Thanks for posting that, Oneironaut!

[eg420ne]

Who made NORAD stand down, USAma? ...Who Warned Top Pentagon Officials not to fly out on 911, USAma?

"During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out."

And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?"

"And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony to the 9/11 Commission, May 23, 2003

How could Cheney know exactly what was heading for Washington and give clear orders for its path to remain clear, while the very people mandated to defend the skies of America scrambled desperately to make sense of the chaos and get fighters in the positions they needed to be?

[birdgirl73]

Bird Girl- I was doing laundry and I found the program... the guys name is Captain Wes Moore... truely an amazing human being.. and let me say that I am not easily impressed.
Thanks, Aaron, for letting me know his name. I'll keep an eye out for Captain Wes Moore.

I think I'm growing more easy to impress as I get older. At least I hope I am. The neat thing about growing older is the increase in humility that comes with the territory. I find the more I learn, the more I realize just how much more there IS to learn. And so I'm increasingly more impressed with the way even perfect strangers and unlikely characters can teach me something new and help me grow, even in small ways.

I find it impressive that you told me about Captain Moore. And it's impressive to me that you possess both a Y chromosome and the ability to do your laundry. That capability is a lesson I hope to impart to the two seemingly laundry-impaired men in my household!

[Aaron385]

Hey I even use fabric softener! Haha

Yes it is true that you can learn something from everyone and I also think that everyone is better at something than I am.. which I like to use to keep my ego from getting the better of me.. Instead of looking for ways that I am better than the people I meet (human nature) I try to look for the ways they are better than me.. and then personally improve in those areas.

I can cook too but without a girl friend to cook for currently I am lazy and just make easy stuff. I only cook when there is someone who will apreciate it more than me. After military food for 6 years a TV dinner is a top notch meal. I guess I am hard to impress but easy to satisfy. I like the way that sounds.

I always apreciate radical views too.. more or less.. as long as they are founded by real evidence and have a legitimate basis. I use to call myself an anarchist just because I thought less government was better government. I had to stray from that terminology due to my other responsibilities and the fact I know any of my better paying employers do internet searches and I dont make myself very hard to identify. I also am not too concerned about people finding out the way I think or feel. Id rather people dislike me for what I am than like me for something Im not.. unless they are paying me a ton of money.