Evolution or Creation

[BlazeAfat1]

The quesition is simple, but id like to here what you gusy have to think?:thumbsup:

[3rdEyeVision]

evulution.....there is no way some big dude up in the sky would make someone like me lol

[AmericanTerrorist]

I believe in both in a way. I believe that we did evolve but I think that the consumption of psychedelics kickstarted any real significant evolution that lead us to what we are today.

[sanguinekane]

Evolution, though I do have religious beliefs.

[birdgirl73]

Evolution. You could make a poll, you know, and get an actual tally of how the beliefs measure up.

[Gothen]

Both. I think that God put the first cell here, which started evolution.

That's why I tell people I'm not Christian, because none of them think I am because of that. lol

[cannabis campbell]

Definately evolution

[3rdEyeVision]

alright if god but the first cell here, where is he??? like if you go far enough in space your actually gonna see him???I dont believe in god at all....its kinda just a fairytale to make people feel better

[Faultydesign]

Evolution eh?

So you believe you came from a rock?

[da haze meister]

dont know
either
god dont exist
soooooo

[da haze meister]

Evolution eh?

So you believe you came from a rock?
you have to know evolutoin before you start bitching about it
i know about it
and it is faulted

[Faultydesign]

Evolution teaches that all people came from rocks.

[SmokinRandy420]

Gods just a fairytale for adults....:thumbsup:

[da haze meister]

Evolution teaches that all people came from rocks.
no, it doesnt. it teaches that people started when the conditions in the hot thin soup were right to form amino acids and proteins and shit which are the building blocks of life i think. then shit went from there

[3rdEyeVision]

hahaha ya what Haze said lol, what if there was already life on other planets and when a asteroid or whatever hit the ground it had certain cells on it that evolved into whatever.......theres probably more proof that we "came from rocks" than a big guy magically created us then just ditched us on some random planet

[Faultydesign]

so, how did the water get there?

[3rdEyeVision]

I dunno how did God get there?

[da haze meister]

so, how did the water get there?
chemical reactions, my friend.

[Faultydesign]

It rained on the rocks, how ever there is no natural way to make something living out of something that is not living.

[Faultydesign]

I am not standing on the scientific proof of a creator God.

However, trying to agrue macro-evolution as science is an incredibly flawed principle.

[3rdEyeVision]

thats the only "logical" reason, what do you thing happened faulty design

[Faultydesign]

There is no evidence for either side of the argument.

If evolution were true Charles Darwin stated that there would be numerous records of transitional fossils in the earth. There are no such fossils.

[Faultydesign]

Personally, I believe that the world was created in 6 24 hour days.

But there is no need to attack me. If you can bring forward unquestionable proof I will be glad to believe that the world evolved.

[Faultydesign]

Personally, I find it much easier to believe that somone made our world than it just kind of randomly happened.

I also question the big bang, when was the last time you had an explosion and something positive came out of it. Order out of chaos is just over my head.

[3rdEyeVision]

ya but I mean come one "someone made our world" like its just so obviously fake, where could that guy possibly have come from,evolution??

[Faultydesign]

It's just how I believe things to be.

I just know evolution is not how the world happened.

[Faultydesign]

And if you look at how the world is put together it's pretty obvious that an intelligent designer was behind it.
....at least to me.

[da haze meister]

ok im gonna go with evolution... more logical
more logical than a magical power creating something from nothing in a mere week
and they DO have fossil evidence
wtf about dinosaurs
so you choose creation because you dont have the mental capacity of a five year old to understand evolution? wtf?
i have had quite a few drinks tonight... and im comprehending shit better than you man
this is it im leaving the thread before i get banned

[Oneironaut]

The Bible says you come from rocks too. Lots of small rocks. It says God formed man out of dirt, and then formed woman from man's rib. If you don't believe mankind came from rocks, you can't believe the Genesis story.

The idea that some molecule, through some chemical process, began making crude copies of itself, and the most successful copies survived, over billions of years evolving more and more complex forms, seems way more plausible than "There was this really complex guy already existing (we don't know where he came from), who came in and started another complex thing called life, then put millions of corroborating pieces of evidence for evolution around, and then went into hiding so that it is now impossible to detect him."

[Faultydesign]

Da haze...what do dinosaurs have to do with proving evolution?

[Faultydesign]

and oneriaunt I respect your intelligence more than anything about you.

However, both evolution and creation are logically impossible.

You choose to believe one thing, I choose to believe another.

[Faultydesign]

Da_haze, the fact that you attack my intelligence is just showing the fact that you have no basis for your argument.

I had the decency not to attack you please refrain from attacking me.

[Oneironaut]

It's just how I believe things to be.

I just know evolution is not how the world happened.
Do you even know what evolution is? You seem to be equating it to the way life first came about, and now you say it is "not how the world happened". Of course it's not how the world happened. Evolution is nothing more than the idea that over time, organisms will tend to change according to which variations within the gene pool are most successful at surviving and reproducing. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life (that's called abiogenesis); it is only about how life evolves (hence the term evolution).

[Oneironaut]

and oneriaunt I respect your intelligence more than anything about you.

However, both evolution and creation are logically impossible.
How is evolution "logically impossible"?

You choose to believe one thing, I choose to believe another.
And I just happened to be the one who chose observation, evidence and logic over tradition, superstition, authority and wishful thinking.

[Faultydesign]

I believe in micro-evolution. It's just that I don't see any of the organisms that don't have the sucessful traits in the fossil record.

[Faultydesign]

You are correct I am doubting random abiogenesis in the matter that just randomly all of these systems came to be.

[Oneironaut]

That's because the ones with the really noticeably bad problems typically don't have their genes survive more than a generation or two. And keep in mind that the fossil record contains only a very very very tiny percentage of all dead creatures; most creatures, like the creatures today, would have been well-adapted to their environment. Evolution happens very slowly, in very small incremental changes. By the way, how much time have you really spent studying the fossil record?

[Faultydesign]

Actually, I am very much involved in a research study conducted at my former highschool. I was going to make a trip to the grand canyon this summer but a disk in my back bulged so that I couldn't not handle all of the hiking. This is something that I am very interested in. If you don't mind me asking how old are you and what if any are your credentials? You are a very smart man and it's a pleasure debating with you.

[Oneironaut]

You are correct I am doubting random abiogenesis in the matter that just randomly all of these systems came to be.
It's not random. The organisms which were most successful at propagating forms like themselves survived. Small random mutations create variation, and over billions of years (a time frame the human mind is utterly incapable of comprehending, which I think is part of the problem people have trying to understand evolution) and uncountable different mutations, complex systems will develop, since a slightly more complex system that has been tweaked the right way can do things better than a simpler one. Is it really inconceivable that over enormous timescales this process could create stunningly complex things?

[Oneironaut]

Actually, I am very much involved in a research study conducted at my former highschool. I was going to make a trip to the grand canyon this summer but a disk in my back bulged so that I couldn't not handle all of the hiking. This is something that I am very interested in. If you don't mind me asking how old are you and what if any are your credentials? You are a very smart man and it's a pleasure debating with you.
I am 21, and my credentials are that I have read a whole lot of books. I have not studied evolutionary biology formally, but it is a subject of great interest to me and a good chunk of my recreational reading is done in that area.

[Faultydesign]

Then I question the desire to evolve. Where does that come from? I big hang up that I have is that gender evolved and the the entire reproductive process. Why would something evolve the means to reproduce? That just means more competition for the food source.

[Oneironaut]

What? If something didn't evolve a means to reproduce, then it would die. All organisms have means of reproducing, or they wouldn't have had a way to get here.

But if you're asking about sexual reproduction, there is a clear advantage to sex: it mixes up the genes. Bacteria and other asexual organisms can only produce copies of themselves. Genetic change can only occur when the DNA is exposed to radiation or the makes a copying error. However, among sexually reproducing organisms like humans, half your DNA comes from your mother and half from your father. This makes it so that each individual has unique DNA, and the process by which better genes propagate themselves is made much quicker.

[Faultydesign]

First, are you familiar with the "Bombadeer Beatle"?

[tyrantowns]

I think that our mind is incapable of even coming close to finding out our beginning.
I guess we have to evolve some more :thumbsup: .

We've only begun to understand cells, wait a century and we may have it.

[Oneironaut]

First, are you familiar with the "Bombadeer Beatle"?
Yes, I am. The reason the beetle was able to evolve that way is because there is a catalyst necessary for the explosion to happen. In small doses this catalyst can provide a stinging heat, in sufficient amounts it actually causes ignition, and there are many working theories for how a steadily increasing amount of the catalyst could have created such a system gradually, if you actually bother to read what evolutionary biologists have to say about it. This particular beetle is a favorite for the old argument from personal incredulity. "I personally can't think of a way such a complex system could have evolved, therefore there is no way it could have evolved."

[da haze meister]

ok dude evolution is currently pwning creation 1 to 0
sorry to insult you faulty

[Oneironaut]

Kent Hovind says that they are dragons who used to live alongside humanity, and that's why we have all these legends of dragons.

Some other creationists think dinosaur fossils were put here by Satan to trick us into disbelieving the Bible.

http://www.truechristian.com/dinosaurs.html

[mojoke]

no, it doesnt. it teaches that people started when the conditions in the hot thin soup were right to form amino acids and proteins and shit which are the building blocks of life i think. then shit went from there

i bet you got a C in biology.

[forwonderbear]

I am not standing on the scientific proof of a creator God.

However, trying to agrue macro-evolution as science is an incredibly flawed principle.



yes, biogenesis is the problem: biogenesis means life only comes from life. but all "laws" aside, the hard part of macro-evo is the "amino acid soup" idea. once evolutionists take their theories back to the part of "genesis" you still have tremendous problems with a living organism arriving out of innanimate parts.

but forget about that: what about where even that innanimate MATTER came from? scientists talk about the big bang. but the problem there is that there had to be SOMETHING there to "bang" in the first place. scientists call this moment the singularity. but no one will talk about what happened before the singularity. where did that tiny piece of matter come from?

now, you of course would have the same problem with god. where did god come from? my point is in the end either you have eternal god (living being) or eternal matter (eternal matter). my point is in the end it's not more "scientific" to believe there is "no god". in the end you have to take on faith where EXISTANCE came from in the first place.

there are many parts of evolutionary science that i find very valid: survival of the fitest/genetic change through selective breading etc.

i am a christian, and i will also not say i have scientific proof of god. i admit readily that i believe in god on faith, not because it has been proven to me. i do however feel god's influence everywhere, but once again this is subjective of course

btw: i love science. i'm a biology/neurobiology student and i find scientific learning fascinating, of course especially living things (bios=life; ology=study)

blah blah good luck to y'all and peace!

[forwonderbear]

Da haze...what do dinosaurs have to do with proving evolution?

well, other than leviathin i don't think they're mentioned in the bible. there is the "gap" theory that there is an amount of time between genesis 1:1 and 1:2. the hebrew has some interesting clues here. i'm not sure if i believe it or not. there is also the theory that the "days" of creation are not literal 24hour days. i used to believe strongly that they were 24hour days, but now i'm not so sure. god created the sun and moon on the 4th so it seems a bit strange to me if the previous three days were 24hours. not sure where i stand on that

btw: i spent a couple years studying biblical languages (greek/hebrew)/biblical theology at a christian university. doesn't make me an expert by any means, but if you have any questions on actualy bible verses, i'd be glad to lend a hand with the literal hebrew translations (greek new testament too, but my greek sucks pretty bad :) )

pps: i hope this thread keeps going. i'm very interested to here in what YOU all think!

[Binzhoubum]

Evolution teaches that all people came from rocks.

How do you know we didn't?

:smokin:

I guess the only person who really knows is God...LOL :stoned:

[forwonderbear]

btw: the hebrew would strongly indicate actualy 24hour days. it's rather blatant in that regard. would be very uncharacteristic of ancient hebrew writing if the author meant something other than earth-days.

[Binzhoubum]

yes, biogenesis is the problem: biogenesis means life only comes from life. but all "laws" aside, the hard part of macro-evo is the "amino acid soup" idea. once evolutionists take their theories back to the part of "genesis" you still have tremendous problems with a living organism arriving out of innanimate parts.

What are the tremendous problems you are speaking of? So, you are actually saying that the conditions for the beginning of life as posited by proponents of evolution have tremendous problems in regards to their explanation of genesis?

I would say that creationists AND evolutionists both have a problem when it comes to this issue. Whatever you say at this point will inevitably beg the question.

If I say the universe was created by God and God is the alpha and omega, I am begging the question, "Who created God?"

If I say that the universe began in virtue of a tremendous explosion about 15 billion years ago and that at this point all energy and matter was contained within one point in space, I am begging the question, "Where was the cause of this explosion? And where did it come from?"

What exisisted prior to the creation of the universe is completely unknown and is simply a matter of pure speculation. Anyway you look at it. :smokin:



but forget about that: what about where even that innanimate MATTER came from? scientists talk about the big bang. but the problem there is that there had to be SOMETHING there to "bang" in the first place. scientists call this moment the singularity. but no one will talk about what happened before the singularity. where did that tiny piece of matter come from?

now, you of course would have the same problem with god. where did god come from? my point is in the end either you have eternal god (living being) or eternal matter (eternal matter). my point is in the end it's not more "scientific" to believe there is "no god". in the end you have to take on faith where EXISTANCE came from in the first place.

I find it ironic that you basically contradicted yourself by admitting that one will invariably encounter this problem of begging the question whichever way one choose's to swing on this issue, yet bring up the issue of faith. :D

What is faith? Faith, by definition, relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence. Faith depends on irrational, illogical thought and is often regulated by human emotion.

Why would God make faith seem so illogical if it were in fact something we should all have and believe in?

I don't see a strong case for faith in my everyday life. It seems to me that if I don't go to work but have faith my boss will pay me, I never get paid. Conversely, it seems to be the case that if I actively pursue a salary I always get paid.

It also seems to be the case that people who choose faith to cure their cancer die at higher rates than those who choose contemporary, Western medicinal treatments developed through a system of logic, trial and error, and formulation of hypotheses known as Science.

Science always seems to give me results. In fact, if it weren't for science I wouldn't be able to use this computer and post this reply to this thread. :thumbsup:



there are many parts of evolutionary science that i find very valid: survival of the fitest/genetic change through selective breading etc.

As you should because such theories are logical and there is evidence to support this.



i am a christian, and i will also not say i have scientific proof of god. i admit readily that i believe in god on faith, not because it has been proven to me. i do however feel god's influence everywhere, but once again this is subjective of course

How do you feel God's influence? If you don't mind me asking... :smokin:



btw: i love science. i'm a biology/neurobiology student and i find scientific learning fascinating, of course especially living things (bios=life; ology=study)

I find botany interesting. :stoned: HEHEHE....:smokin:



blah blah good luck to y'all and peace!

Peace to you too! :smokin:

[Binzhoubum]

btw: the hebrew would strongly indicate actualy 24hour days. it's rather blatant in that regard. would be very uncharacteristic of ancient hebrew writing if the author meant something other than earth-days.

What is an "earth-day"? Not every culture, country, society, etc. measures time in the same way. I am not an expert on Ancient Hebrew methods of time-telling, but are you sure they were using the same calendar and the same method of telling time as we use today?

[monki]

Evolution teaches that all people came from rocks.

ok big guy how does evolution teach that all people comes from rocks?

please justify so i can blow your obvious total lack of understanding of the process of evolution clean out the water.

[Oneironaut]

yes, biogenesis is the problem: biogenesis means life only comes from life. but all "laws" aside, the hard part of macro-evo is the "amino acid soup" idea. once evolutionists take their theories back to the part of "genesis" you still have tremendous problems with a living organism arriving out of innanimate parts.
Well, what do you expect? No matter how you look at it, deliberate creation or not, it must have been an extremely complex chemical process that happened about 3.5 billion years ago. We have no traces of exactly how the first cell came about; all the evidence has been destroyed by billions of years of decay and erosion. I have a hard time believing that just because it must have been really complex and because we have hardly any evidence of what exactly went on, that it had to have been purposefully created by a cosmic supergenius. Intelligence is the most complex thing we know of, the result of the tremendous complexity of the human brain, which has been shaped by millions of years of Darwinian natural selection. This complexity is the very thing we are seeking to explain. I can't see the explanatory power of the idea that something as complex and intricate as intelligence (and not just any intelligence, an infinite intelligence!) just popped out of nowhere for no reason. It just makes the problem of where complexity came from that much more baffling.

but forget about that: what about where even that innanimate MATTER came from? scientists talk about the big bang. but the problem there is that there had to be SOMETHING there to "bang" in the first place. scientists call this moment the singularity. but no one will talk about what happened before the singularity. where did that tiny piece of matter come from?
Well, there's always going to be the problem of "why is there something instead of nothing?" Nobody's been able to find a satisfactory answer to that question, and I doubt anybody ever will. We just have to accept that the universe exists, and we don't know why since there's no surviving evidence of what (if anything) happened "before" the Big Bang. Some have even argued that such a question can't even meaningfully be asked, likening it to asking what is beyond the edge of the universe.

now, you of course would have the same problem with god. where did god come from? my point is in the end either you have eternal god (living being) or eternal matter (eternal matter). my point is in the end it's not more "scientific" to believe there is "no god". in the end you have to take on faith where EXISTANCE came from in the first place.
Take on faith? The scientific answer would be "we don't know what, if anything, caused the universe to exist, because there's no conclusive evidence". Saying "although there's no evidence, I know for a fact that it was Jehovah/Allah/Vishnu/whatever that created the universe" is fundamentally anti-scientific. The scientific method rests on accepting only what the evidence points to, and taking that only as provisional truth, a working theory that is always open to change or even complete rejection in the light of new evidence. There is nothing scientific about having faith in that for which there is no evidence. There is something scientific about asking for evidence that a proposition is true, however, and ignoring hypotheses that are non-falsifiable.

there are many parts of evolutionary science that i find very valid: survival of the fitest/genetic change through selective breading etc.

i am a christian, and i will also not say i have scientific proof of god. i admit readily that i believe in god on faith, not because it has been proven to me.
Good. I hate when people try to "prove" that God exists with material evidence. It just doesn't work, and you can hardly ever get them to see the flaws in their logic.

i do however feel god's influence everywhere, but once again this is subjective of course
Yeah, I remember when I used to feel "God" too, until I realized I could create the same tingly sensation by listening to Pink Floyd alone in a dark room. It's all in how you interpret the feeling.

btw: i love science. i'm a biology/neurobiology student and i find scientific learning fascinating, of course especially living things (bios=life; ology=study)

blah blah good luck to y'all and peace!
Have a good one.

[baisez le monde.]

spontaneous combustion












sorry i was watching soujttht park

[bhouncy]

evolution or creationism?.... whatever happened it's totally crazy. The past doesn't mean much to me. I like to be in the here and now and then zooooom forward into the future in my mind. Buzzzzzzziiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnn.

[Oneironaut]

well, other than leviathin i don't think they're mentioned in the bible. there is the "gap" theory that there is an amount of time between genesis 1:1 and 1:2. the hebrew has some interesting clues here. i'm not sure if i believe it or not. there is also the theory that the "days" of creation are not literal 24hour days. i used to believe strongly that they were 24hour days, but now i'm not so sure. god created the sun and moon on the 4th so it seems a bit strange to me if the previous three days were 24hours. not sure where i stand on that
I think that Genesis is just a creation myth of an ancient agricultural people who had no idea why the world was the way it was, and invented a story in order to have some kind of explanation. I think the funniest part about the whole myth is that God spends all this time carefully designing the earth and the things on the earth and the inhabitants of the earth, and then the sun and moon so the earthlings can have night and day, and then, as an afterthought, finishes by spontaneously constructing the trillions and trillions of galaxies, gas clouds, black holes, supernovas, quasars, dark matter, etc. that make up 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of the matter and energy in the universe...just so the earthlings could tell the time and season.

Who can blame them for thinking the universe was created for them? It certainly looked that way, from a pre-scientific mindset.

[Hamlet]

I'm a little confused....is it whichever opinion wins the pole gets to be true? I didn't know we could vote things into reality but I like the possibilities :)

[braddog10]

I'm a little confused....is it whichever opinion wins the pole gets to be true? I didn't know we could vote things into reality but I like the possibilities :)



aaaaahhh, Hamlet ~ Your zingers..

Had to stop by and say Hello, I see oneironaut is still embarassing himself.

Dude, you are actually a satanist, if you are interested. Picking up on various things you say mirror their doctrine to a T.

Just a thought,.....juuuuust a thought....

[Ganjasaurusrex]

Evolution.

[braddog10]

thats the only "logical" reason, what do you thing happened faulty design




evolution has already been given a failing grade by logic and research. the bizarre thing?...... teachers keep passing it in their class because of some hard heads in the admin of the NEA, things have been getting a bit heated up by professors who have integrity issues promoting this , and still maintain a good conscience.

It's incredible that the need of a few people in positional authority to deny god, would cause them to go to such extremes to fight with there own researchers.

When an individual does this in the processes of his own mind (fight against what he already knows), The individual can deteriorate to the point of suicide or be locked up. crazy ain't it.....we all do this to a degree, but it is still mentally ill.

I love people I hate the lies that deceive them. I despise this one. It is unsubstantiated. Substantiated research says it is false. Deal with it.

[SpiritLevel]

what we evolving into? what we evolved from?
psychological evolution; evolving between deep-asleep and wide-awake

I ent evolving. Not a Raaas!
http://www.harunyahya.com/

[braddog10]

what we evolving into? what we evolved from?
psychological evolution; evolving between deep-asleep and wide-awake

I ent evolving. Not a Raaas!
http://www.harunyahya.com/


Now this is incredible, truly incredible. i also clicked on the link refuting Darwinism and saw the "The religion of Darwinism" ......aaaahh, this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

thanks Spirit level

[SpiritLevel]

welcome :)

[nikweiser]

evolution makes more sense..
we have seen things evolve, there is proof of things evolving...

there is no proof that god really is there... people say the bible.. what is the bible? a big book.. i could make my own big book and say that one day a big bud plant burnt from spontanious (sp) combustion (sp) and that then it rained thc and people grew from the earth.. and i could hide the book and 3000 years later someone could find it and be like OMG the bible, this is what we live by, just some tail from a stoner that can convince people he is the son of god..

i bet none of that made sense. so simple words i dont think there is a god.

I would LOVE for there to really be a god, to go to a place that is so good when you die..
but i think when we die, we are just in a dream... like when we sleep

[Hamlet]

Okay, okay, Faldwellian politics aside. Let's work this one out.

You have a house cat and you have a lion....They are very similar because they are in the same 'family'. They are in the same 'family' because________.(fill in the blank)

You have a chimpanzee and you have a man. Their chromosomal compatibility is similar enough to actually cross-breed. (at least to the point of fertilizing the egg-more than likely all the way, but I'm not will to go all the way with a chimp just yet).
This is true because_______________.

[SpiritLevel]

if the missin word is evolved/evolution i gunna laff...

[SpiritLevel]

if microscopically there are supposedly atoms consisting of nucleus, electons and protons; and macroscopically there are planets orbiting a nucleus (sun) with moons etc, who is to say we (people) are not elecrons and protons constently changing the earths proptery in our state of being? that is just to thro a rusty spanner in the works

[braddog10]

Okay, okay, Faldwellian politics aside. Let's work this one out.

You have a house cat and you have a lion....They are very similar because they are in the same 'family'. They are in the same 'family' because________.(fill in the blank)

You have a chimpanzee and you have a man. Their chromosomAal compatibility is similar enough to actually cross-breed. (at least to the point of fertilizing the egg-more than likely all the way, but I'm not will to go all the way with a chimp just yet).
This is true because_______________.

you are ignorant of both. Anyway replacement hormone therapy is done with pigs, not primates. Armour thyroid for one of them. Hormones happen to be some of the most critical physiological chemicals that our bodies discriminate. Wheres your documentation? just more WILD claims no substance. By the way, what is represented in the bottom fossil record? Do you even know this one?

[Ganjasaurusrex]

evolution has already been given a failing grade by logic and research. the bizarre thing?...... teachers keep passing it in their class because of some hard heads in the admin of the NEA, things have been getting a bit heated up by professors who have integrity issues promoting this , and still maintain a good conscience.

It's incredible that the need of a few people in positional authority to deny god, would cause them to go to such extremes to fight with there own researchers.

When an individual does this in the processes of his own mind (fight against what he already knows), The individual can deteriorate to the point of suicide or be locked up. crazy ain't it.....we all do this to a degree, but it is still mentally ill.

I love people I hate the lies that deceive them. I despise this one. It is unsubstantiated. Substantiated research says it is false. Deal with it.


"Evolution has been given a failing grade by logic and research"

If this is true then why do bacteria rapidly mutate against our modern antibiotics?

Its called adaptation and evolution in real time and you dont need a 1000 years to see the results of change in single cell organisms. Cells comprise every living thing on the planet and will change when confronted with adversity to survival, faster in single cell organsims, slower in evolved beings.

I dont deny evolution nor do I deny God or an ultimate creator.

[Hamlet]

Sorry about the 'wild claims'. I don't know what got into me. It's those heretics at National Geographic. They're trying to brainwash me.

[zero2104]

evolution, for how ppl got here

but god could have created first cells and space and stuff

[braddog10]

Hamlet, The "Geo Society" is a part of the same holdouts as are their few associates at the NEA. They are also not at the level of the top researchers, they are simply parroting the trash they have been taught. They frame everything in the paradigm shaped by their ed..... by guess who??? The NEA. I know I have been coming on a bit strong, and rudeness is not cool, regardless if we disagree. but this lie has been shoved down our throats Christians) until our stomachs are sick.

Thanks,
Brad

[braddog10]

Ganjasaurusrex, Of coarse, adjustments are made. minor, very very minor. How about the moth issues. It is very simple that the processes that shape bacteria, are the same processes that breeders use to shape herds. Check the very 1st fossil records.... Horses were horses, in fact there were more species then than there are now, Come on.... this is simple truth. There are no transitional forms of life. Museums designed elaborate, models of civilizations of supposed transitional man.......over a single tooth that turned out to be some kind of PIG. It's WILDLY speculative. Argue with the researchers. Don't waste your claims here.

[braddog10]

Sorry guys,

It's also the fact that the two of you have also been spoon Fed this BS.... that adds to my exasperation.

I care for ya,
Don't doubt that.

[mrdevious]

Actually Stephen Hawking had an excellent theory on how the original matter came into existence. I don't feel like going into detail right now, but you have to first bring in to question the nature of reality, space-time, and actaully not-so-clear distinction between "Something" and "nothing". which are not as separate as one might think.

[ChronicMike]

Creation.

[Ganjasaurusrex]

Everything in the universe evolves.

Galaxies evolve.
Planets evolve.
Trees evovle.
Plants evovle.
fish evovle.
micro and macro eco systems evovle.

The micro bacteria flora in the human gut has evolved to produce enzymes, vitamins, and immune cells to combat ever changing pathogenic threats that evolve right along with it. It has to change or the being is overcome with pathogens. Your immune system evovles lock step and memorizes viral codes to past flues. This is why younger people are more suseptable to newer flues as opposed to older adults that have experienced that strain.

Bacteria and virus evolve.
Insects evolve.
Reptiles evolve.
Birds evolve.
Animals and mammals evovle.

Some forms nature perfected to withstand very little change like crocodiles and sharks. The fossil records show this.

Human beings evolve.

The soul evolves.

There is not one thing in this entire universe that is static.

As environments are not static such as pangea (continental drift) or ice ages neither are the beings that occupy those enviornments. The ones that cant adapt fast enough when met with environmental adversity.......parish. Then new forms take their place. Modern man does have advantages obviously not held by early man.

Dinosaurs could not adapt fast enough, yet small fur covered mammals could.

Why did humans, primates, guinea pigs and fruit bats all suffer the loss on one enzyme out of three in the liver in order to self produce ascorbate, neccessary to sustain life of healthy skin, arteries, white blood cells etc.?

All reptiles produce this in the kidneys. All other mammals on this planet can self manufacture it in the liver.

The four listed above had migrated due to early environmental changes and due to environmental change have not adapted fast enough to enviornments void of ascorbate sources, thus the loss of one of three critical enzymes to produce ascorbate synthetisis.

A genetic mutation to environmental change.

You will die in less than 200 days without ascorbic acid. The early British and Antarctic explorerers were the first to discover this when facing scurvy. A death sentence without an ascorbic source such as citrus.

So were we created whole and perfect from creation.....no. Our bodies mutate along the way due to environmental adversity.

This is why these are the only four beings on this planet that must derive this essential chemical from external sources of certain vegatables or citrus or face death. That is a fact.

Bacteria mutate when challenged with mans modern antibiotics. This is life that adapts, evolves and mutates in real time in order to survive.

Virus is no different as we see each year at flu season variation in the flu virus, hence new drugs must continually be developed. The bird flu virus vaccine will need to be continually remanufactured as the virus mutates. We may not be able to do it one day.

Small changes in the cell equate no different than cells of the human body or any other living organism when under environmental adversity.

Single cells of bacteria and virus can adapt faster than any higher evolved being.

Bones in all mammals change with time. The average human will completly shed his entire skeletal system 10 times in his life.

It is no secrete that skeletal mutations and tissue mutations occur. Genetic deformaties are common in many creatures long before environmental toxins occurred to create those mutations.

To say we are created from a body that does not change or is perfect from an image is not true.

I believe in God, I believe in evolution. The two are inseparable in my belief.

[Binzhoubum]

I think you are all wrong...

If you take a long look at why people form any beliefs in the first place you will see that it is done out of a certain fear. It's of no consequence whether or not you believe in God or evolution or that aliens created us because they are all wrong.

The only truth can come from the absence of beliefs. It is only in such a moment that truth can be found. :smokin:

[Binzhoubum]

either way...

its still fun to argue about. :smokin:

[OnionsOfLove]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun :)
cheers

[Ganjasaurusrex]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun :)
cheers


Onions,

Good read.

In fact I read it twice.

Have a good one.

[Hamlet]

"Actually Stephen Hawking had an excellent theory on how the original matter came into existence. I don't feel like going into detail right now, but you have to first bring in to question the nature of reality, space-time, and actaully not-so-clear distinction between "Something" and "nothing". which are not as separate as one might think."

I haven't read Hawkings take on it but this is where reality gets to be a real mind-bender, isn't it? --that our Universe is a bubble of existence in 'non-existence''; and outside of that is absolutely nothing, not even empty space.

Anyway, as far as Creationism vs. Evolution there really doesn't need to be a battle of the concepts here. Anyone who's read the Old Testament knows the Bible doesn't say the world is only ten thousand years old. The churches came up with that on their own by counting back on the 'begats'. A quick cruise through Genesis and you realize there are a lot of unanswered questions. -like who were the people outside of the garden whom Cain was afraid would kill him? (wait a minute! there were only three people on earth at the time!) Any answers to these questions came from some preacher/theologian and not the Bible. (so all you Baptists out there can assume it came from a Catholic and can disregard it...lol)
So evolution could easily be incorporated into theology just like the fact that the world is round and not being the unmoving center of the Universe was. That was a hard one to swallow at one time. Remember Galelio almost getting burned at the stake for saying so? There he was with his telescope in front of a bunch of preachers saying 'look! I can prove it. Just look through the telescope." The answer was 'we will not look through the telescope and you WILL retract your statements or you WILL be burnt alive for your heresy." (<the churches would still be doing this if they could get away with it)
And since there's no proof an 'intelligent design' didn't start it all in motion anyway, someone dedicated to science shouldn't have any problems believing in a Creator/Designer if they want to. (well, there would be dogmatic abuse from his 'colleagues'-but most of them are too chickenshit to think outside the box anyway)

What the issue really boils down to is the separation of Church and State. The Church (churches) absolutely cannot stand it that they don't hold the reins on government and education. (I won't get into Bush)
This was the greatest thing Jefferson and our founding fathers did for this country, and no matter what religion you're affliated with, you should be thanking the deity of your choice they did it. How would all you Baptists out there like it if the Catholics/Mormons were calling the shots? (or vica versa)?

Really, Jerry Faldwell and the boys are picking a fight that they don't want to win. And anyone fighting their cause is playing the pawn of these sleezeball powerbrokers when they think they're just defending their faith. Wouldn't things be great if people chose to think for themselves instead of letting Rush Limbaugh, or some other toad looking for power/prestige do it for them?

[LordSmaug]

Creation. Evolution doesn't stand up to much scientific scrutiny. Especially when you dismantle evolutioary icons. And the Cambrian Explosion just skull fucks the entire idea of evolution. -if you don't know what the cambrian explosion is, it's a whole shit load of animals popping into existence at around the same time fully developed with absolutely nothing leading up to their current form.-

[braddog10]

.
.
.
You guys........sweet onion, Shelbay....... are all awesome. I so enjoy each and every one of you. Interesting, point you raised, Ham. I was just thinking the other day about cain. In fact the Lord set up communities of refuge, for people whom society wanted to kill, though their deeds would be considered evil even by Him. He still loved Cain...nevertheless.

Ham....the population as the 2nd generation? yeah, interesting too, some of it I guess, is need to know.. Maybe the technical editors missed that one.

Well my season has begun, I'll be in a 4 to 5 month work marithon. I'll miss all of you.

I'll be back occasionally.

It was foolish for me to put the brakes on, mareejr's thread. Keep an eye on it. feedback is needed. Don't forget the poll in the sexual forum.

email me [email protected]

[graymatter]

Evolution created, art, god, warfare, and the tiny hairs that grow in weird places as we age...

[Binzhoubum]

I have a lot of fun coming in here and discussing things like this, so i apologize for a possible long post.

Ganjasaurusrex: interesting concepts. its funny how everything "evolves" as you put it, especially considering evolution can be described (as you have) as collected changes over time. In my belief, God and evolution are inseperable only because fate is an inarguable part of our existance. For example: the fact that you (reader) are reading this post right now is fate. Fate to what ends? No one knows, but it is fate nonetheless. You chose in the past to do something, and once you did it, it happened. There is no way to change what happened, only what will happen. And if evolution is to be considered in this way, then humans have indeed evolved almost to the point that we as a species are able to control our surroundings, to choose to make our fate a good one. Humans have the ability to see to it that the human race (and lifeforms as we know it) are perpetuated. Many people like to believe there is a god on earth that they can follow and trust in, but in my opinion the god of holy books (and his opposite: satan, etc) only serve to explain the concept of good and evil in a more metaphorical way (and thus slightly more understandable, as it is a rather abstract concept). The collective belief of all religions is that man must do good unto man. For what purpose? In an evolutionary sense, the only purpose doing good unto fellow man serves is to prolong the existance of life, which is arguably what allah and the christian god both want to do. (Funny that i use those two dieties as an example, kind of puts the "holy war for oil" into perspective.) Now, imagine that god and satan, as it has been said that they do, are battling for souls. Where would they be battling? In your head. Every time you do something "good" or "bad" you are swaying toward one side or the other. Thus we have the concept of dieties. They have always desired for humans to believe in them, and they choose, supposedly at random, not to let themselves be physically known to us. In short, the concept of a diety (in the current written religious sense) was, and is, just a device, crafted by man, to get human beings to get along together. But as can be learned from the game "telephone," knowledge that is passed down (and around) is tainted by biased people, lack of good memory, bad hearing, people who distort the truth, etc, etc. So it could indeed be possible that religious prophets actually had something to say, and that at one time it was a very easy thing to understand. But through translations and languages and fires and smudges and people who dont know what a certain word means, we arrive upon incredibly long pointless metaphorical books that are all trying to say the exact same thing: be nice to your fellow man. The ten commandments (i apologize for using mostly judo-christian references, im sure there are other such examples in other religions) are rules that everyone understands and knows, but they break them sometimes. Breaking these rules causes unrest among societies of man, and over a long enough time period, "evil" can become commonplace because of the amount of people in the world who can teach evil to other people. Evilness, in the sense im talking, applies almost specifically to selfishness. Anything that anyone does that causes discomfort in someone else should not happen. Everyone should always attempt to help everyone else out, always. If we were to live in such a society, one might call it paradise. No stealing, worrying, dirty politicians, etc, etc, etc... nothing except good times.

Has anyone ever noticed that societies and cultures around the world seem to be constantly liberalizing? Moving to a point at which everyone within the government (whom is serves) is happy because they have what they want? In terms of the black rights movement in the united states: at the beginning, the first jump was to become free as a people. Then to become free within society and culture. Now the american culture is questioning racial differences as a whole. Racist people are constantly made fun of on chapelle's show, and its funny because its true. Its funny because some people in the world actually believe that a retarded white person is different than a retarded mexican. But in reality, everyone in the world is a person who has their own memories, abilities, and aspirations. In a society where everyone's potential is realized because it is never held back by "evil", what isnt possible?

Just to clarify "evil":
a brother and sister are fighting because they got in an argument. in order to teach them "wrong" from "right" a parent chooses to threaten to hit them with a rolled up newspaper, or threaten them with time out, or yell at them as loud as possible. the brother and sister eventually stop fighting, but the behavior never goes away because the parents dont know how to possibly address it because no one has addressed it in their lives either! Its a never ending cycle of shit, breeding ignorance and inability throughout the human race.

in short, i believe in everything, because its all the exact same thing and no one chooses to realize that... man created beliefs and languages and etc etc and has been evolving to the point that we are at today, even right now. the other funny concept is time: time with respect to a human being is based on point of observation. i.e., a man who travels to each time zone each new hour does not experience 365 days a year nor 60 seconds a minute. He experiences right now, which is the only time there is in his world. Time for this man, in fact, is based on one thing: how long he has to do something. And that is then broken down into two categories: how long he has until he finishes whatever project, and how long he has before he dies. But there is also another concept of time to that man, and that is the concept of infinity. He knows that there was a time before him because his parents gave birth to him and they were alive longer than he has been. He also knows that there is a time after him because he fathers a child who will live on past him. And all of these people will die in their own times as well, but time will still go on. So this man must ask himself what it is that he wants to do with the time that he has on earth? this is the dilemma of man. many people choose to squabble over tones of bullshit until they die. some people choose to join peta and fight for less hormones in chickens who are being bred to die while they themselves are working in a coffee shop selling coffee made from beans in a foreign country that uses extremely cheap manual labor to harvest a crop. And you can ask those people: what is your real aim in life? To save already dead chickens that can be fed to hungry people, or to sell your coffee in your starbucks outfit that was picked by the hand of a hungry child? Though this example I cite might not happen all the time, it probably happened once. And the same concepts are applicable all across society, to everyone.

its been fun :)
cheers

What is fate more than simple coincidence? :smokin:

[Lethal G]

My belief is that we could not just have been some "accident" of science, as some believe. I think there is a higher power who created this world that we all live in, as well as the rest of the universe. I'm just kind of in doubt of what religion really holds the truth to creation, which is why I keep an open mind. We may all be right, then again none of us may. This is why I've developed my own beliefs of who God really is.

On the issue of evolutuion, I do believe in it to an extent. My beliefs here reside more in terms of changes over time. We have definitely evolved over the billions of years humans have lived here on earth (as well as many other animals).

[iwantFUEGO]

why is it so wrong to believe that God created evolution.

God is all knowing so why wouldn't He create organisms that will adapt and survive? The earth isn't perfect... Genesis tells us that the earth isn't perfect because of what adam an eve did in the garden.

The bible shouldnt be read literally... it was written by MAN who was influenced by God.

You need faith in something... otherwise what do you have to live for?

[Hamlet]

Today I was listening to the radio--the local right-wing zealot who's always screaming creationism and defending Bush. He had Dr. Francis Collins as a guest (the prof. in charge of mapping the human genome, and also a religious man). The host thought he had a shoe-in for the defense of Creationism. I thought it was pretty funny how he had to eat crow from a superior intellect that was to some extent, on his side.

Collins said 'Creationism' as it's proposed, hasn't been around very long and is absurd as it's presented compared to the body of evidence for evolution and the natural sciences--and taking Genesis literally is impossible unless you want to cast out reason completely. He felt (as IwantFUEGO mentioned above) that the only rational way to approach the dilemma, if one chooses to believe in a Supreme Being, is to accept that God uses Evolution to get the job done.

Anyway, I have to listen to this ultra-right lunatic every day and it was fun listening as he got his ass handed to him by someone who was actually educated enough and rational enough to understand the issues.

[ThatTokenWhiteGuy]

Creation. Evolution doesn't stand up to much scientific scrutiny. Especially when you dismantle evolutioary icons. And the Cambrian Explosion just skull fucks the entire idea of evolution. -if you don't know what the cambrian explosion is, it's a whole shit load of animals popping into existence at around the same time fully developed with absolutely nothing leading up to their current form.-

HA! And creation does?! Give me a break.

Ah the Cambrian Explosion. Anything that can happen will happen under the right circumstances. Seems to me that at that period in time, things in the enviroment (or just the life forms, arguebly) changed rapidly. Causing rapid change in the life forms that had to adapt or die. Thus, a whole bunch of "rapidly evolved" animals in a relatively short period of time (12 million years) came into existance. There's no accepted theory but there some attempts to explain it with ideas other than "faith". Scientists look at very quick climate changes, atmosphere changes and unique physical changes that may be "revolutionary" to life forms. I find it funny how those of you that choose creation as your explaination are so quick to disgard scientific theories and facts but blindly accept God as the creator through "faith". Apparently faith, based on hopes and dreams holds more weight with you than theories based on evidence, probability and information. You can almost smell the ignorance.

That's my :twocents:

[braddog10]

I think you are all wrong...

If you take a long look at why people form any beliefs in the first place you will see that it is done out of a certain fear. It's of no consequence whether or not you believe in God or evolution or that aliens created us because they are all wrong.

The only truth can come from the absence of beliefs. It is only in such a moment that truth can be found. :smokin:

Hey Binz, I find the latter part of your statement facinating. I have pondered this for years. Our latest posts have brought this back to mind. I think you will find this interesting. It is right along these...or this line.

Quick brief, God was upset with the Jews .........Who would so continually lose track of things relationaly with him. check this out....His own word going out thru his prophets, though his prophets never reached them physically. God uses man to speak thru (dominion mandate). and sends it out to the four corners. ........This relates ...Large ....to what we have been talking about concerning those ~ not having heard.

My point is that it is still Him...........hey, very good to see you.
Think about this for a bit

Roman 10
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
"I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."

20And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
.
.

[braddog10]

Evolution created, art, god, warfare, and the tiny hairs that grow in weird places as we age...

aaaaahhh, you make me laugh. I like you Gray.

Art? Your crazy....alright ..hairs
Man's stupidity starts wars.
knucklehead
.
.

[dopesmoker]

definetly evolution. As much as i respect the beliefs of anyone who believes creation, there is no doubt that it is evolution

[braddog10]

definetly evolution. As much as i respect the beliefs of anyone who believes creation, there is no doubt that it is evolution

I am wondering why you believe this, when It requires more faith than creation??
Just wondering?...especially in the light that we are all ~ here ~ to discuss it. Help me out here. What evidence do you really have other than micro babble. Where are the major transitional forms?

Why is this also the only thing in science that denies the laws of thermal dynamics, and is acepted? crazy!!

[Binzhoubum]

I am wondering why you believe this, when It requires more faith than creation??
Just wondering?...especially in the light that we are all ~ here ~ to discuss it. Help me out here. What evidence do you really have other than micro babble. Where are the major transitional forms?

Why is this also the only thing in science that denies the laws of thermal dynamics, and is acepted? crazy!!

How does evolution violate the laws of thermal dynamics? :smokin:

I think that creation requires much more faith to believe in than evolution.

[beachguy in thongs]

But, then again, what's at the beginning of evolution? The Creator.

[Faultydesign]

A non diest view of evolution involves matter just spontaneously evolving for no real reason....

It's kinda like your car driving itself to the store while you sit at home and hit the bong.

[Binzhoubum]

A non diest view of evolution involves matter just spontaneously evolving for no real reason....

It's kinda like your car driving itself to the store while you sit at home and hit the bong.

Actually, it's not like that at all... :smokin:

[braddog10]

why is it so wrong to believe that God created evolution.

God is all knowing so why wouldn't He create organisms that will adapt and survive? The earth isn't perfect... Genesis tells us that the earth isn't perfect because of what adam an eve did in the garden.

The bible shouldnt be read literally... it was written by MAN who was influenced by God.

You need faith in something... otherwise what do you have to live for?

You've got a great attitude. and that is a very good question. You are absolutely right.Adaptation is all around us. Our need to make adjustments and adaptations is part of the wisdom of creation.

[Binzhoubum]

You need faith in something... otherwise what do you have to live for?

I think there are many things to live for besides faith in religion. :smokin:
You could live for being a good person.
You could live just for the sake of living.
You could live to eat hot dogs with spicy mustard.
You could live to study philosophy and try and figure out what you are living for.

I think it's alot like John Lennon said, "Life is what happens while you are making other plans."

So, just live your life and be friendly, generous, fair, etc...and everything will turn out ok. :stoned:

[braddog10]

Today I was listening to the radio--the local right-wing zealot who's always screaming creationism and defending Bush. He had Dr. Francis Collins as a guest (the prof. in charge of mapping the human genome, and also a religious man). The host thought he had a shoe-in for the defense of Creationism. I thought it was pretty funny how he had to eat crow from a superior intellect that was to some extent, on his side.

Collins said 'Creationism' as it's proposed, hasn't been around very long and is absurd as it's presented compared to the body of evidence for evolution and the natural sciences--and taking Genesis literally is impossible unless you want to cast out reason completely. He felt (as IwantFUEGO mentioned above) that the only rational way to approach the dilemma, if one chooses to believe in a Supreme Being, is to accept that God uses Evolution to get the job done.

Anyway, I have to listen to this ultra-right lunatic every day and it was fun listening as he got his ass handed to him by someone who was actually educated enough and rational enough to understand the issues.

Hamlet, God aged the earth perfectly in the figurative six listed. There is alot of numberology that I question if most not familiar would obviously be aware of........... in a Kind of a round about......... in a round about way.

[Hamlet]

http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/04/bullshit-creationism.html

[weirdo79]

http://www.talkorigins.org/

[afghooey]

http://www.talkorigins.org/

Seriously, everyone arguing in this thread should take a thorough look at that site. Some good stuff there.

[weirdo79]

Too be honest most will "poo poo" it claiming its a "website" and not a good cite then go on to point to a creationist website...Bah I dont know why we bother , people who shout "creation!" 9/10 havent even taken grade 11 biology let alone university level. They think because THEY dont get it or understand it then it simply cant be true....Appeal to ignorance fallacy....Wish they'de just take a course or two or even just Email any science wing in a non religious university. Especially ones like Waterloo or Berkeley. Of course scientists just buried those fossils and transitory species so they could get grant money ;).

[bhouncy]

It's kinda like your car driving itself to the store while you sit at home and hit the bong.

Please put me down for one of these vehicles.. are they hybrids?:rasta:

[Dais]

There is both evolution and creation because if some thing were never created there would of never of been anything to evovle or adapt to anything. Come now people isnt it obvious that both such forces exsist.