Bad Religion

[Bro DZ]

So fellow potheads, I wanted to pose the question of religion to everyone. I myself am an Atheist, thus my use of drugs does not interfere with any code of morales I'm supposed to adhere to. What religion do you guys follow, if any, and how do you rationalize your use of a herb, which is definetly a no-no for anyone pretending to be christian or jewish. And what do you guys think about religion? I see it as a crutch... pretty classic veiw, eh? A big ass dominatrix, raping people of individuality and freedom, making them think someone else can make it ok for them to do bad things or that there are constantly things watching them. Its all bad =oP

And what does toaism, wicca and any other religion you guys might be in veiw as wrong as far as drugs are concerned?

[Islander]

So fellow potheads, I wanted to pose the question of religion to everyone. I myself am an Atheist, thus my use of drugs does not interfere with any code of morales I'm supposed to adhere to. What religion do you guys follow, if any, and how do you rationalize your use of a herb, which is definetly a no-no for anyone pretending to be christian or jewish. And what do you guys think about religion? I see it as a crutch... pretty classic veiw, eh? A big ass dominatrix, raping people of individuality and freedom, making them think someone else can make it ok for them to do bad things or that there are constantly things watching them. Its all bad =oP

And what does toaism, wicca and any other religion you guys might be in veiw as wrong as far as drugs are concerned?
Ah shit! I thought this was going to be about the band... :(

[SomeDude]

I think the flaw of organized religion is that it takes what is supposed to be a subjective, mystical experience of god/universal conscious/nature/whatever and dogmatizes it. As soon as you start saying what is/isn't god, what god thinks, etc., and focusing on that, rather than focusing on the mystical, personal experience and personal knowledge of whatever you want to call it, your religion becomes somewhat scientific in a way, and it fails to serve it's purpose. Religious experience can't be quantified, classified, explained, or limited, that's why it is supposed to meet a psychological need that science doesn't satisfy. But this is what modern organized religions do through dogma.

Wait, was that on topic? Did it even make sense? Oh well, who cares...

[dastia]

Dude! It's not the religion that says its wrong, it's the bigots that are religious!

[Sedater18]

I thought it was going to be about the band too

[rufusthestuntbum]

What songs do you reccomend, i have never eally listened to bad religion

[ermitonto]

I am an atheist as well, and a Daoist; however, I would classify Daoism as a philosophy rather than a religion, since it does not deal with things that must be believed based on faith or cannot be observed.

To answer your question, Daoism does not hold anything as "wrong". It does not dictate what is "moral" and "immoral" like Christianity, Islam, etc. It is a philosophy about what is and the way things are, and seeks to help people live in harmony with that. For this reason it holds great reverence for nature and things natural, not excluding the many mind-altering things found in nature. I know of many Daoists who use weed recreationally.

[GHoSToKeR]

im more of an Agnostic than an atheist..


if i had to choose someothine to beluieve in, it wiould be myself.. i can only see tghe world from my point of view, so it o nly matters how I see shit, u know?

i dunno im so high and i cant see the keyboard.. anywya, as far as relgion goers, i think religion is just somethin that people use to fill and give hopoe to their avergae every day noraml liveas.. coz we were supposed to live like this noramll,y in these concrete jungles but we do, so our minds work in crazy ways to deveklp this idea of something bigger to beliebe in u know?

[KyserSozay]

I thought it was going to be about the band toothats what i was thinking too...

[Bro DZ]

right on guys. nice post Somedude.

[RESiNATE]

I've never heard of the band :(

Anyways, religion:

It's a man-made theory - go figure.

Res...

[BOgart.bitch]

right now im very confused.. so i just label myself agnostic.. i know im spiritual but i also know that i dont believe in christianity or what i have seen of it. so, for right now im out in religious limbo, which doesnt have too many rules to follow concerning weed and whether or not it is right for me to use it.

[sawleaf]

Hahha, I also thought this was about the band. Anyways, I'm not into them. If you've heard one of their songs, you've heard them all. They all sound so much alike.

[KillaBuzz]

Ermitonto, how can u be an ahtiest an beleive in sumthin, even if it iznt an actual religion, at the same time? athiestz not only dont beleive in any "real" religion, they beleive in NOTHING, no supreme being, an that the reason were here is completely scientifical. an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion. there iz a big difference. an fer those ov u who say religion iz controlling er wutever, well u must not kno anythin bout religion. ppl dunt choose a religon becuz ov the rulez that religion entailz, they join a religion bcuz they truly beleive that that iz how the earth wuz created an such. if yer in a religion an feel like it iz too controlling, maybe u shoood think bout yer beleifz on how we came to be, maybe yer current religion iz not wut u true heartedly beleive in. i juss dunt understand how anyone can go around sayin that christianity er jewish ppl beelive in sumthin that iz rapin them ov their freedom. this iz y i say u must kno nuttin bout religion, becuz religion GIVEZ u freedom, it duznt rape u ov it. an like i said b4, if u honestly feel like yer religion iz interfering in a way that makez u uncomfortable, maybe u dunt truly beleive in that religion.
PeAcE

[ermitonto]

"Ermitonto, how can u be an ahtiest an beleive in sumthin, even if it iznt an actual religion, at the same time? athiestz not only dont beleive in any "real" religion, they beleive in NOTHING, no supreme being, an that the reason were here is completely scientifical."

I would agree completely with that. I don't believe there is anything above the physical manifestation of molecules, energies and so forth, and if there was it would be completely irrelevant to us since we can't observe it. There is nothing in that statement which contradicts any aspect of Daoist philosophy. There is no supreme being in Daoism, no metaphysical souls, no concept of an afterlife...the Daoist is not required to believe in any of that. I see no evidence for a God or gods anywhere, so I don't believe in any of them; therefore I fit the dictionary definition of an atheist, albeit an atheist who incorporates Daoist thought into his life.

"an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion."

No, that is not agnostic. Agnostic means somebody is not sure whether or not there are any deities and thinks that no solution to the issue can be reached given the evidence. There certainly is a big difference. I am not agnostic. I don't see the popular Judeo-Christian "God" as a very likely being; I would go so far as to say that such a being is logically impossible: I do not see a possible way for a being to be omniscient and omnipotent and yet give humans "free will" and coexist with it, for example.

"an fer those ov u who say religion iz controlling er wutever, well u must not kno anythin bout religion."

Yes, but they didn't come to that conclusion themselves, they were obviously coaxed by someone who is already a member. People don't just stop in the street and say "Aha! I get it! There is no God but Allah! I guess I'm a Muslim, huh?"

"ppl dunt choose a religon becuz ov the rulez that religion entailz, they join a religion bcuz they truly beleive that that iz how the earth wuz created an such."

Most people don't "choose" their religion. For most people, it is as accidental as what language they happen to speak. Again, to clear up, Daoism does not claim to know how the universe was formed. As far as I'm concerned, the Big Bang Theory looks like how it really happened. Laozi and Zhuangzi and the other founders of Daoism did not claim any supernatural or divine inspiration for their writings. They wrote as mortal, fallible men and acknowledged this. They wrote about life and good ways of living based on what they experienced in their lives.

"if yer in a religion an feel like it iz too controlling, maybe u shoood think bout yer beleifz on how we came to be, maybe yer current religion iz not wut u true heartedly beleive in."

This does not apply to Daoism, which does not portray a story on how the world came to be.

"i juss dunt understand how anyone can go around sayin that christianity er jewish ppl beelive in sumthin that iz rapin them ov their freedom. this iz y i say u must kno nuttin bout religion, becuz religion GIVEZ u freedom, it duznt rape u ov it. an like i said b4, if u honestly feel like yer religion iz interfering in a way that makez u uncomfortable, maybe u dunt truly beleive in that religion."

I say to each his own. If you want to believe something and it isn't hurting me, go ahead. It's unfortunate that those people believe those religions to be true, but there's nothing I can do about it and I'm not going to make fun of someone for their religious beliefs. I am not uncomfortable with my Daoist philosophy, since it deals with lots of things that can be relevant to anyone's life, atheist or otherwise, like self-sufficiency, simplicity and the importance of the natural world.

I'm not saying people with religion are any less free (or any more free). I'm just saying that many people in Christianity, Islam etc. have worldviews in which certain things are "moral" and others are "immoral", for example giving selflessly is "moral" and killing senselessly is "immoral", whereas Daoism does not draw that (sometimes fine) distinction, focusing on the consequences of the act itself rather than trying to categorize it on a black-and-white good-versus-bad scale.

"an like i said b4, if u honestly feel like yer religion iz interfering in a way that makez u uncomfortable, maybe u dunt truly beleive in that religion."

I don't believe in a religion. I have a philosophy, a Weltanschauung, like everybody else does. I consider myself a Daoist because I agree with most of the philosophy in the Daoist texts and it has partially shaped my Weltanschauung, the same way that I have been influenced by more modern authors' philosophies. Daoism is not "interfering" with my atheism in any way that would make me uncomfortable; if it did I would not be a Daoist.

[KillaBuzz]

alrite um juss so yah kno, i wuznt talkin bout u thruout my entire post so there wuz no need fer u ta break erythin i said down an come up wit sum shit that i dunt even understand bout daoism lol. the only thing i wuz talkin 2 u bout wuz the athiest/agnostic. now tell me wut the difference between me sayin an agnostic beleivez in no set supreme being becuz therez no certainty, an u sayin "Agnostic means somebody is not sure whether or not there are any deities and thinks that no solution to the issue can be reached given the evidence" i dunt think there iz any difference an if there iz, itz so suttle that i cant figure out y u wood try an act like i wuz wrong. we said tghe exact same thing but in different wordz. how do ppl not choose their religion? maybe in certain countirez where the leader ov the country iz also the leader ov that countriez religion, leavin ppl no chioce, but otherwise, we all have a choice az to wut religion we put our faith into.

[GHoSToKeR]

KillaBuzz - just like Ermitonto said, to each his own. The way I see it, is that Christianity, Judaism, Islamasism (sp?) and most other 'religions' only take away your freedom by telling you what's right and what isn't, you don't choose for yourself.

Secondly, most religious people did not choose that religion, it was thrust upon them. These are the people that I get saddened by. People who have NEVER questioned their own beliefs, never questioned the religion they are a part of, but won't listen to anyone else's point of view. Shit, I don't believe in God, but if someone wants to sit with me and try and reason with me that there IS in fact a God, then i'll listen with an open mind.. when you can't do that is the point when you need to step back and take a look at yourself. That's why I believe that organised religion is taking away people's freedoms, simply because, in my honest opinion, it is a form of brainwashing, and people are afraid to doubt their own beliefs, which I feel is the worst "sin" of all

Seriously man, I grew up in the shittest religion to grow up in as a kid.. fuckin JW's! I hated it. As soon as I was old enough to question the JW theology, I did, and I didn't like it.. But other JW's I know don't even question it, because they're afraid to.. Just like Catholics consider it a sin if you question Gods existence etc etc..

I, like ermitonto, don't believe in any deity. Just as erimtonto said, if an omnipotent and omniscient deity did exist, then he/she/it would preclude free will..

also, ermitonto, I'd like to hear more about the Daoist philosophy you were mentioning.. I've heard it mentioned but didn't look into it.. If youve got the time, of course

peace

[GHoSToKeR]

Sorry for the double post, but I got something to add lol

Killa, an Agnostic is someone thats skeptical about the existence of God but doesnt profess true atheism because he/she believes it is impossible to know if their is a God or not..

an Atheist is someone who believes there is no God, period.

peace

[Bro DZ]

LoL
I was raised till about the age of 10 under the rule of my JW mom. Fortunately for me, the kingdom halls we went to all taught us that we werent going there just to pray to their god, we where going there to learn about the bible. And thats what I did, so after learning all I needed to know, I asked the elders questions they could not answer and religion no longer held any mysteries for me. I lucked out, unlike many poeple who are born into stricter sects and religions. Daoism sounds like an awesome philosophy though, and I'll have to read into it. So far all I know about it is whats been said here.

[GHoSToKeR]

LoL
I was raised till about the age of 10 under the rule of my JW mom. Fortunately for me, the kingdom halls we went to all taught us that we werent going there just to pray to their god, we where going there to learn about the bible.
lol the one i went to was full of bloody fascists haha

[Bro DZ]

thats the way most religious institutions are. Thus my original statement about the limitation of freedom :) Over the years I have convinced all of my friends to give up their religions, not by constantly antagonizing them or anything, but just by showing them that I live a decent life without worrying about a magnificent extra-planar being scrutinizing me... and by living up to my own personal code of ethics. I just think reason works far better than the fantastical.

[KronicKing]

no i just wont post im agnostic thats all ill say religon gets me ina bad mood as ghost knows =)

[GHoSToKeR]

not by constantly antagonizing them or anything, but just by showing them that I live a decent life without worrying about a magnificent extra-planar being scrutinizing me... and by living up to my own personal code of ethics. I just think reason works far better than the fantastical.
right on

luckily, not many of my peers are religious.. but with the ones that are, i just take the same approach as you.. i mean, if they like their religion, they truely believe it and they dont wana leave it then i dont try and change them, its their choice, but some people r a part of a religion without even thinkin about it.. they just do their thang, go to church or whatever, do as their told, and dont ask why.. theyre the people that i feel sorry for

[GHoSToKeR]

no i just wont post im agnostic thats all ill say religon gets me ina bad mood as ghost knows =)
lol :cool:

[KronicKing]

btw bro,converting is wrong leave pll to them selfs dont bother them about things like that i cant stand all the damn christians and athiest argueing when neitrher makes since(wrong form of word but ive been drinking =P) and no matter how much u argue neither party will change veiws just like poltics,witch i also hate =) but the moral of all this rambleing is to leave pll be let them do whatever they want as long as it doesnt effect u ,but when pll like christians(just the 1s i have the most trouble with because of my area) i usualy explode on them i cant stand it when pll r all upo in my biznass(=P) in the words of some old raper "dont start no shit wont be no shit"

but ill dig up some of my old stuff to give u a ideer about my views =P

i use =P alot =P

[ermitonto]

"Agnostic means somebody is not sure whether or not there are any deities and thinks that no solution to the issue can be reached given the evidence" i dunt think there iz any difference an if there iz, itz so suttle that i cant figure out y u wood try an act like i wuz wrong. we said tghe exact same thing but in different wordz.

The difference is this: you say "an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort". This is wrong because no agnostic believes there is a supreme being. If that isn't clear enough, consider this: people who don't know whether or not there are supreme beings (i.e. agnostics) CAN'T believe in supreme beings. They acknowledge the possibility of them but make no definitive statement as to their existence. The difference is not subtle; it is what sets the agnostics apart from the theists.

[ermitonto]

Also, your definition of atheists is a bit flawed. Believe it or not, not all atheists reject religion. An atheist is merely somebody who doesn't believe in any gods, so would include most Buddhists for example.

[GHoSToKeR]

Killa, an Agnostic is someone thats skeptical about the existence of God but doesnt profess true atheism because he/she believes it is impossible to know if their is a God or not..

an Atheist is someone who believes there is no God, period.

peace
exactly

[KillaBuzz]

dunt quote one part ov my post an leave the next part out ov it so that u can try an make it seem az if wut i said wuz different.

in yer last post u said that my position on wut an agnostic iz iz the following:
"an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort"
now if thatz all i had said, then yah, i wood ov been wrong. but i said "an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion"
now in case yer not pickin up on wut im sayin, the part wit the no certainty obviously meanz there there iz no certainty on whether er not there iz a supreme being an if there iz, wut exactly that supreme being iz.

so once again, plz explain the different between:

agnosticz simply r not sure ov what iz out there, an wut u said. i aint the smartest guy but buddy, im sayin the exact same thing u r an yer sayin im wrong.

now about a supreme being precludin free will, well how do u kno that if there wuz a supreme being, it wood preclude free will?

now we can bicker on whether er not my definition wuz word fer word out ov the dictionary, but i think u get wut i wuz sayin an i must say that i dun appreciate ppl who kno wut im talkin bout commin on an tryin to tell me im wrong by sayin the exact same thing i said, but usin a whole bunch ov smart wordz. im in skool, an am in a world religionz course so i do kno wut the difference iz.

[ermitonto]

in yer last post u said that my position on wut an agnostic iz iz the following:
"i said "an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion"
now in case yer not pickin up on wut im sayin, the part wit the no certainty obviously meanz there there iz no certainty on whether er not there iz a supreme being an if there iz, wut exactly that supreme being iz.

No, agnostics don't say "there's a supreme being out there, but I don't know what it is." They say "there might be a supreme being out there, or there might not be a supreme being out there." When you say "an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion", you imply that they think there is indeed some supreme being but they don't know what it is. Saying that agnostics are "not sure ov what iz out there" (which I would agree with) is not the same as that.

"now about a supreme being precludin free will, well how do u kno that if there wuz a supreme being, it wood preclude free will?"

Because this is a basic tenet of Islamo-Judeo-Christianity. We could tweak the definition of God until it is not possible to prove one way or another whether it exists, but then you have to make all sorts of decisions about what sorts of things you would call gods and what sorts of things you wouldn't. For example, some people would say that God is the same thing as Nature and use the word that way, but I'm not going to say that Nature doesn't exist. That is why I specified the Judeo-Christian God in my argument.

[JohnnyBravo]

"Ermitonto, how can u be an ahtiest an beleive in sumthin, even if it iznt an actual religion, at the same time? athiestz not only dont beleive in any "real" religion, they beleive in NOTHING, no supreme being, an that the reason were here is completely scientifical."

I would agree completely with that. I don't believe there is anything above the physical manifestation of molecules, energies and so forth, and if there was it would be completely irrelevant to us since we can't observe it. There is nothing in that statement which contradicts any aspect of Daoist philosophy. There is no supreme being in Daoism, no metaphysical souls, no concept of an afterlife...the Daoist is not required to believe in any of that. I see no evidence for a God or gods anywhere, so I don't believe in any of them; therefore I fit the dictionary definition of an atheist, albeit an atheist who incorporates Daoist thought into his life.

"an agnostic belivez that there iz a sumpreme being ov sum sort, but since there is no certainty, they choose not 2 follow a religion."

No, that is not agnostic. Agnostic means somebody is not sure whether or not there are any deities and thinks that no solution to the issue can be reached given the evidence. There certainly is a big difference. I am not agnostic. I don't see the popular Judeo-Christian "God" as a very likely being; I would go so far as to say that such a being is logically impossible: I do not see a possible way for a being to be omniscient and omnipotent and yet give humans "free will" and coexist with it, for example.

"an fer those ov u who say religion iz controlling er wutever, well u must not kno anythin bout religion."

Yes, but they didn't come to that conclusion themselves, they were obviously coaxed by someone who is already a member. People don't just stop in the street and say "Aha! I get it! There is no God but Allah! I guess I'm a Muslim, huh?"

"ppl dunt choose a religon becuz ov the rulez that religion entailz, they join a religion bcuz they truly beleive that that iz how the earth wuz created an such."

Most people don't "choose" their religion. For most people, it is as accidental as what language they happen to speak. Again, to clear up, Daoism does not claim to know how the universe was formed. As far as I'm concerned, the Big Bang Theory looks like how it really happened. Laozi and Zhuangzi and the other founders of Daoism did not claim any supernatural or divine inspiration for their writings. They wrote as mortal, fallible men and acknowledged this. They wrote about life and good ways of living based on what they experienced in their lives.

"if yer in a religion an feel like it iz too controlling, maybe u shoood think bout yer beleifz on how we came to be, maybe yer current religion iz not wut u true heartedly beleive in."

This does not apply to Daoism, which does not portray a story on how the world came to be.

"i juss dunt understand how anyone can go around sayin that christianity er jewish ppl beelive in sumthin that iz rapin them ov their freedom. this iz y i say u must kno nuttin bout religion, becuz religion GIVEZ u freedom, it duznt rape u ov it. an like i said b4, if u honestly feel like yer religion iz interfering in a way that makez u uncomfortable, maybe u dunt truly beleive in that religion."

I say to each his own. If you want to believe something and it isn't hurting me, go ahead. It's unfortunate that those people believe those religions to be true, but there's nothing I can do about it and I'm not going to make fun of someone for their religious beliefs. I am not uncomfortable with my Daoist philosophy, since it deals with lots of things that can be relevant to anyone's life, atheist or otherwise, like self-sufficiency, simplicity and the importance of the natural world.

I'm not saying people with religion are any less free (or any more free). I'm just saying that many people in Christianity, Islam etc. have worldviews in which certain things are "moral" and others are "immoral", for example giving selflessly is "moral" and killing senselessly is "immoral", whereas Daoism does not draw that (sometimes fine) distinction, focusing on the consequences of the act itself rather than trying to categorize it on a black-and-white good-versus-bad scale.

"an like i said b4, if u honestly feel like yer religion iz interfering in a way that makez u uncomfortable, maybe u dunt truly beleive in that religion."

I don't believe in a religion. I have a philosophy, a Weltanschauung, like everybody else does. I consider myself a Daoist because I agree with most of the philosophy in the Daoist texts and it has partially shaped my Weltanschauung, the same way that I have been influenced by more modern authors' philosophies. Daoism is not "interfering" with my atheism in any way that would make me uncomfortable; if it did I would not be a Daoist.

Fuck me ermitonto, its like reading a damn book. Where does all this shit come from.

[ermitonto]

A complex network of trillions of neurons constantly sending pulses around and collaborating to create the genius that is my mind.

[KillaBuzz]

ERMIT HOLY FUCK BUDDY. how many timez do i gotta say that NO MATTER WUT I SAID, i agree exactly wit wut u r sayin an agnostic iz, i choose to use different wordz. so plz stop replyin back an disagreein wit me cuz ive said it quite a few timez, my definition iz the exact fuckin same az yerz, juss different wordz. maybe u thot i meant sumthin else but im tellin u once an fer all ok?...

[ermitonto]

Okay, fine. No need to throw a temper tantrum. :confused:

[GHoSToKeR]

lol

this reminds me of me and my bro.. if we're drunk we start talking about all sorts of stuff, and sometimes get into arguements about it, then it turns out we were both tryin to make the same point in the first place lol

[KillaBuzz]

i wuznt throwin a tantrum, but srry if i sounded pissed off thatz juss my personality. no harm meant.
PeAcE

[Imotep]

A complex network of trillions of neurons constantly sending pulses around and collaborating to create the genius that is my mind.

hahaha
nice one.
Im always arguing with my missus and we're making the same point