Bubblicious Problems - Root rot?

[moreover123]

This is my 2nd grow. First grow was 1 NL x Shiva and a WW. Both came out nice but the WW was outstanding (IMO). 4oz off her. I didn't have a TDS or PH meter and rarely checked pH with dip paper.

So now I have Bubblicious. Bought the meters. When I went to 12/12 one week ago, I used the GH chart (I have GH nutes) and was at 1100-1200 ppm with ph at around 5.6 ish. 400 HPS w/430w Hortilux. I have a bubbler system.

First off, the plants are much spindlier this time. But the real problem is the roots. On one, the roots are almost shriveled looking despite getting enough moisture. On 2, many areas of the roots sticking out the basket are dark and clumpy. Today I redid my buckets and when I touched the roots - they basically disintegrated. :(

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong with these. There are no outward signs of issues except for one plant that 'burned' on the leaf tips in some sections and turned crispy.

Could anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong that is causing my roots to be unhealthy like this? I didn't think 1100-1300 ppm would cause this and I thought it was about where the plants should be. Is it nute burn? The water is not warm/hot by any means.

Also, they have very little bud sites. One plant has none all the way up the stalk except for the last node area. Also.. They are really going slow here with showing their flowers. It's just not going well?

[moreover123]

I've read up a bit. Now I'm sad. I'm thinking I should lower the water levels a bit to let the roots get dryer. I'm also seeing suggestions of adding H2O2 but I'm not finding a 'recipe'. I have 3% in the house and wondering if I should use it.

[The White Snoop]

It sounds like you have root rot, or overferted roots. Get a digi thermometer for your res and get the temp. What system are you running? If its DWC then temps are extremely important.

drop your ppm under 1000 and add h202. Keep your res temps below 70 to be safe.

BTW slime is a huge sign of pythium(root rot).

[moreover123]

Besides trying to save the roots and finding a 3% peroxide recipe per gallon... I have another query. When I refilled my bucket bubbler system today, I mixed the GH nutes directly together in a jar that I was going to pour into each bucket. As I did this, I noticed almost a silt forming. Grainy & opaqueish. Like - the Micro & Bloom reacted together oddly. Is this normal? I never noticed that before but then again, I never added nutes like this with my first grow. I would always add one nute at a time by squirting it right in the buckets.

[moreover123]

It sounds like you have root rot, or overferted roots. Get a digi thermometer for your res and get the temp. What system are you running? If its DWC then temps are extremely important.

drop your ppm under 1000 and add h202. Keep your res temps below 70 to be safe.

BTW slime is a huge sign of pythium(root rot).

They didn't feel/look very slimey. Maybe a bit though yes. The bad parts. Darn - What a shame. I'll check the temps now. I'll remove the new nute solution to take the ppm down a bit.

Snoop - I have 3% H2O2 on hand. Each bucket holds about 3 gallons. Do you have a suggestion of how much to use per gallon?

[moreover123]

I don't have a thermometer but I drained down the tanks quite a bit and added cold ph'd water. My ppm now is 800-900. I also removed as much bad roots as possible. I also lowered the water level so they can breath better. Not sure how much 3% peroxide to add though. I'm afraid of adding to much. I'll go search the archives some more.

[LOC NAR1958]

Sorry about the root rot probably temp. One thing is you don't mix the nutes by thier selves, they react and form crystals. Very,very bad. Mix micro first always to some water and stir, wait a few then add bloom. This may have been the start of the rot, nute lockout. H2O2 about a teaspoon per gallon or so, you can go a little more. Look up my thread on red hair ladies. You can cut the roots back to about 2 inches hanging in the water.

[moreover123]

:) Yes, I just searched on h2o2 and found the dose. Searching on perioxide was far less effective. I'll add the peroxide now. I'll also double check to see if I could remove anymore bad roots to ensure a good cleanup.

Loc - why is the nute crystal formation bad? Because it shows a reaction and this reaction creates a scenario where the nutes are negated? And the plants don't get fed? Is that what you mean?

Hmmm... I'm not sure what to do about that now. I removed quite a bit of solution from the tanks after I did the 'bad mixing'. PPM now around 800. Should I go to the effort to get all the solution 100% of out these tanks because I screwed up? Hate to waste the nutes but if I messed them up - then I need to?

[oldbull]

White Snoop is so right on about keeping the res temp below 70. Also added air to your res can really help. Hydroguard added regulaly can help. Also with the roots in bad shape Super Thrive and Advanced Piranah instead of nutes can help. The H2o2 kills the fungus and works like a cannazym to wash away dead roots. Then a regiment of the Super Thrive and Advanced Piranah or GH Subculture adds friendly bacteria to help rebuild a root structure.
Good Luck

[LOC NAR1958]

yea we had a talk just a week or so ago in a thread with Zandor and latewood. Always mix micro first and never any of GH 3 parts together without water. They cause a chem reaction. They might be alright but I think I would change it out. I don't think you hurt them any more than the rot. Your getting them cleaned up. Good luck.

[moreover123]

Thanks Loc. There's many things I could be doing better here. For instance, the linked bubbler system I made doesn't circulate between the buckets well. One will be at 1200 ppm, the next will be 1000. I have a small pump and will be trying to figure out how to pump water to the buckets to make things uniform.

Till then, I put the 2 affected plants in the buckets with the lowest ppm. I.e.; one is in 400-500. Sort of given them a break from nutes for a couple days. The water is also lowered to try to give the roots more air. I'm thinking of even trying to remove the net pots to dry the roots out a bit for a couple hours.

I read your thread when you went from 400 to 1000 watts. I'm 1/2 tempted for find a very cheap system. Though I'm not even sure why I'm doing all this because what I got off the one plant I grew will last the 2 of us about 10 years. :)

[willyhaze]

Just wanted 2 say I'm really impressed by your DWC bubbler was thinkin bout doin that system I've been seacrchin thread after thread site after site and found an old thread by almight great Zandor and he had a mini bubler system ..
Any info would honorably b appreciated
Thanx

[willyhaze]

I've also seen a great latewood post on mini bubblers

[moreover123]

Sorry for not putting this thread in 'problems'.

I'm not seeing any improvement yet. Not sure how long it takes. One plant seems to have no roots in the basket area and what roots there are are like dried brown hairs. Almost like the problem started in the hygroton area? IDK. Right now I have 4 plants. 2 are tall, 2 are short. The short ones have stopped growing and there's some yellowing at the bottom. Only one has a great root system which is odd to me since the buckets are all linked.

I'm going to pull the plants/baskets and scrub the buckets with bleach, add a 900-ish????? ppm of nutes and the peroxide. To add insult to injury, I found out today that my hps was on probably 24/7. I think this only occurred for a day or 2, but I'm not sure. :(

[latewood]

Besides trying to save the roots and finding a 3% peroxide recipe per gallon... I have another query. When I refilled my bucket bubbler system today, I mixed the GH nutes directly together in a jar that I was going to pour into each bucket. As I did this, I noticed almost a silt forming. Grainy & opaqueish. Like - the Micro & Bloom reacted together oddly. Is this normal? I never noticed that before but then again, I never added nutes like this with my first grow. I would always add one nute at a time by squirting it right in the buckets.
dude...read directions...You are never supposed to mix nutes together, without water...I.E. you get a bucket of water, then add micro bloom etc...never put micro bloom or any nutes by themselves in a jar (nutelock)...that might be your whole problem...

[latewood]

Thanks Loc. There's many things I could be doing better here. For instance, the linked bubbler system I made doesn't circulate between the buckets well. One will be at 1200 ppm, the next will be 1000. I have a small pump and will be trying to figure out how to pump water to the buckets to make things uniform.

Till then, I put the 2 affected plants in the buckets with the lowest ppm. I.e.; one is in 400-500. Sort of given them a break from nutes for a couple days. The water is also lowered to try to give the roots more air. I'm thinking of even trying to remove the net pots to dry the roots out a bit for a couple hours.

I read your thread when you went from 400 to 1000 watts. I'm 1/2 tempted for find a very cheap system. Though I'm not even sure why I'm doing all this because what I got off the one plant I grew will last the 2 of us about 10 years. :)the ppm being different from bucket to bucket, is common in your type of system...I would almost diconnect the feedlines and manually feed with nutes of correct ph/ppm...also...your water level shgoulod be 1/2"-1/4" below netpots. at all times if possible.

[moreover123]

Thanks! I never mixed the nutes like that before. Don't know what I was thinking but it was 'interesting' to see what happened. I'll have to go read up on Nute Lock.

[latewood]

anyway to get us some piks??? It would sure a help.

can you give us a list of your nutes...

also, I strongly recommend getting some hygrozyme...for your roots.

you may have lost this grow, it is hard to tell without seeing it...the biggest clue is...new growth, are you getting any??? New growth that is! LOL

[The White Snoop]

Nice LW....or should I say MOD!

about fuckin time if you ask me.

Congrats

[moreover123]

I have GH nutrients. The only additives I have on hand are: Nitrozyme, Floralicious Plus, SuperThrive. Will post pics in a few minutes.

I think I miscalculated and added too much Micro. I've no clue. I wish there was a way to test it because If I can't figure out what I did wrong - I'll have to drain everything yet again.

[moreover123]

First pic is the whole area. 4 Plants. The 2 in the back are doing much better. One has great roots, the other - is having a problem.

2nd & 3rd pics are the 2 in the front that are smaller that have the worst root issues.

[moreover123]

First pic - good roots of rear right plant.
The rest are looking quite bad. The last pic is what started all this. It had the rott that I tried to clean up. The others don't seem to be rotting. But IDK what you'd call it.

400 hps, gh nutes, peroxide :(

[moreover123]

There does appear to be new growth. I don't understand how it's possible.

Here's a pic of one of the affected lower leaves. Only front 2 show this.

[The White Snoop]

Are you positive your containers are light proof?

[moreover123]

Unless the containers are so thin that light's getting through. My first grow went very well so I can't imagine that's the issue? There might be an airstone hole or 2 that could be sealed better. I could put white towels over the buckets just in case. Do they look like goners?

[The White Snoop]

They can all be fixed..just keep them in veg and start a anti bacterial schedule for awhile. Flush the sysem w/ ph adjusted h20 and a strong dose of h202 for 24 hours. Put a low nutrient mix and h202 for 4 days(topping w/ a slight dose of h202. You should change your res changes to every 4-5 days. Things should start clearing up after 2 res changes. But it will take some time to recoupe.

You said they arn't slimey and dont stink so I dont think its root rot. It looks like build up. ^^^do that and you will be back on track in a couple weeks. If you feel like its coming back at any time..flush w/ h202 for 12-24 hrs.

[moreover123]

White Snoop - Do you have any suggestions as to what a 'strong dose' constitutes? I put in 10 ML (2 teaspoons) per gallon. Sounds like I should up it.

Ooo. Do you guys use Potassium Permanganate like pond people do? I bet that would nuke the bacteria.

[The White Snoop]

These are for 1 gal.

24 hour flush (high dose
3%-12 ml
17.5%-2 ml
35%-20 drops 1ml

Low dose(weekly)
3%-11ml
17.5%-2ml
35%-16 drops


Daily topping-
3%-5.5 ml
17.5%-18 drops
35%-9 drops


Never heard of Potassium Permanganate...H202 kills ALL bacteria and I have seen it take grows like yours into healthy plants by flower.

[latewood]

Nice LW....or should I say MOD!

about fuckin time if you ask me.

Congratsthanks snoop, means alot coming from you.:smokin:

[latewood]

I'm here...let me look at your piks

[latewood]

I think it is root rot...

do you have airstones in each bucket, because i think it is lack of oxygen to the root area...what i see is...light brown roots, rotted off...It the bottom of that stalk darkening?

nitrozyme is the enzyme product you have on hand...cool
so that fills in for hygrozyme...for the time being.
floralicious...is similar to what to Liquid Karma, B-52, and other catalyst vit-b products...So that's cool.

with floralicious...and I will double check to make sure I am not stearing you wrong...I ck'd...I was right

I would use this mix...
per gallon.
0 grow
5ml micro
10ml bloom
10ml floralicious
mix nitrozyme according to directions...this should be well within ppm limits for the size plants you have.

both the floralicious and nitrozyme will keep your rez healthy unless you create a atmospheric problem.

the airstones are the key.


I think the one plant is fried...I think the top will follow and the sooner you make the decision to pull the plug...the sooner you stop wasting time and space on the ol girl...pitty...

since you recirculate...this is something that can spread maybe?...there is also a brown algae, I believe...

the 2nd pick...looks OK, like the water was real low and the roots near the netpot dried up at one point.

Now you have a couple options between me and snoop...

I have a couple plans for you to consider once I get answers to q's at top

lw:smokin: gotta go and roll1

[latewood]

well, sorry snoop...I just read your last post. I just want you to know I am not trying to disagree with you.

good lesson, moreover...here are 2 decent growers telling you 2 different things. You have to just take it all in and
"be the plant" roflmao...sorry

I know this is serious...You have to make a choice...

I'm waiting for answer on airstones?

[latewood]

[QUOTE=latewood
nitrozyme is the enzyme product you have on hand...cool
so that fills in for hygrozyme...for the time being.
floralicious...is similar to what to Liquid Karma, B-52, and other catalyst vit-b products...So that's cool.

with floralicious...and I will double check to make sure I am not stearing you wrong...I ck'd...I was right

Hey sorry about misinformation above. peace

[latewood]

[QUOTE=latewood
nitrozyme is the enzyme product you have on hand...cool
so that fills in for hygrozyme...for the time being.
floralicious...is similar to what to Liquid Karma, B-52, and other catalyst vit-b products...So that's cool.

with floralicious...and I will double check to make sure I am not stearing you wrong...I ck'd...I was right

Hey sorry about misinformation above. peaceHere is right info:

I was wrong...nitrozime is not an enzyme...it is a foliar spray...sorry....so many products. most enzyme products are spelled zyme...not zime.

and something real important, that people forget about when suggesting the use of h202...It does cleanse, and you cannot use any organic products(floralicious, Liquid karma, for instance) at the same time. h202 kills all bacteria and micro-organisms good, and bad...OK. so be careful.

It is cool to use h202 with 3-part, but not pure blend pro or other organic hydro style nutrients FYI

I used h202 originally, but knew it would 'kill' organic...in your case, that could be a good thing, then come back andflush out with water for a day and replace with fresh nutes...whatever recipe or nutrient application method you choose. lw:smokin:

[latewood]

frickin' stoner...lol

[moreover123]

Latewood -

AIRSTONES: Each bucket (and rez which is the same size as buckets) has one of those 5" round weighted airstone disks. The pumps were the biggest they had at the pet shop. Each runs 2 buckets. The rez has a small cheapo pump running it. I have on hand a $300-350 airpump that I could use. It certainly would add more air! :) Probably act like a fountain in there with the pressure. I really thought I had enough air though. The disk looks a bit like this https://www.shop.trilbytropicals.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=125&categoryId=8

STALK - No, the bottoms of the stalks are nice & green.

RECIPE - Should I separate the buckets from each other? Or should I use this recipe for the whole system? Maybe I should tie them all off to preserve at least the one with good roots?

"I think the one plant is fried" - Which one would that be in the picture of the 4?

Oh - So are you now recommending not adding the additives and using the H2O2?

My gut is telling me to put something directly on the roots to oxidize the crap. I wish someone was familiar with Potassium Permanganate (PP, Green Sand). I have a fine high grade of it here. It's primarily used in water treatment but has many other uses like for ponds, treating fish ulcers, new water plants, etc. It oxidizes bad stuff and leaves the good. Much like h. peroxide. It's dosed in PPM. I'm envisioning a dip in a light solution. But these are not pond plants and I'll probably find zero information on their use with this plant.

OK Late - Are you swinging more towards fresh water & peroxide like Snoop? Or do I go back to your original thought?

Should I start some more seeds? :(

[moreover123]

Latewood - I answered your question... Now where are ya? :)

I was very busy today. No time to play with the plants. I did take a peak at the roots on the worst one (shortest roots in pic)... and I "think" I'm seeing some fresh white rootlets. I think I'll be able to confirm that in the morning. The plants themselves show more new growth.

[latewood]

sorry...working on website...

the h2o2 is a good call...I don't do it anymore...I use a fresh nute mixture with good humics and enzymes...

It is a hard call...nobody here wants to steer you wrong...
If I were you...I would NOT put anything directly on the rootball. Plants regenerate..all you can do now is stabalize the problem...If you see new white fuzzy roots poppin out.
Keep on growing..you will get something out of it.

and personally...I think you would be better off isolating each bucket and running them simple DWC with your airstones...that will give you more control over the finish of each plant, and isolate any problem that might spread.
Then I would probably Get a bigger nutrient reservoir, and start thinking about taking the cool parts I have and adapting system for bewtter efficency.

I'll be glad to try and help you out, and I'm sure there area few other folks, that would throw in ideas...

There are way to have buckets in tune beeter than what you have experienced. perhaps in helping you, I can learn more about those type system's

My recirculating DWC units all fill up at the same time and then drain once they reach a certain depth. the pump keeps running oxygenated fluid...

Perhaps your ph problems from bucket to bucket was due to this all being new to you.

later, sorry I missed you...had to spend some time at home (mentally that is)

lw

[Opie Yutts]

Don't need addatives. To avoid root rot keep your nutes circulating and ariated with a submersable pump that has a power head. You can aim it and it sucks in air and spits out bubbles. About $30 solves all your root rot problems. Really. Also Latewood is right about the airstones and individual containers with recirculating nutes. This is one of the best ways to do it. I encorporate Latewoods method with some other stuff and I've never had a root rot problem.

Good luck with that crap. I hate problems like this, but I believe you'll get it figured out.

[Opie Yutts]

Latewood: Could we have a sneek peak at your website?

[moreover123]

Update - I have new roots! I think they are coming back.
The problem is, I have 2 short plants and 2 tall. My options are to separate and raise the buckets of the short plants... or can I merely put them back under veg to do a 2nd grow phase after the talls are done?

My other issue is that after 2 weeks in flower, I'm not seeing flowers. Just female preflowers. The talls are still in stretch mode. Do the flowers not really appear till they're done with their stretch?

[latewood]

be patient...keep all4 in flower...you only drive plant insane with all that photoperiod switching...do as you said...raise the 2 or not...they will still grow into healthy buddage either way...Is it a drastic difference in height?

later lw

[moreover123]

There's 13" difference between tallest one and 2 shorties. I guess I'll raise the buckets.

And - it's too late for clones (2 weeks into flower but still in stretch mode & not flowering yet)???

[latewood]

you could take a few clones from around the bottom...the 1st time I cloned...the MUM was in week 2f...don't hack it up...just find 2-4 on each plant near the bottom that appear healthy, goodluck. lw

ps...sometimes it takes a little longer to root cuttings from flowered plants, but you can do it.:smokin:

[moreover123]

1 plant is 7 feet tall. I'm not exagerating. Possibly 7.5'. :( I tried bending down the main stalk and yep - broke it cuz it was so hard to work in there. :( Still attached though. I have to read up on splinting. 1 plant is 2.5 feet tall. The other 2 are also smaller at around 3-3.5 feet.

Tis a puzzlement as to the big boy's height. Freekish. Some roots are still darkish but they seem to not be rotting anymore. I put a 'real' air pump on them. My ppm is around 1200.

Due to the problems with the 7 footer and having all the plants turn out female - I bought a 600 hps today and moved the 7 footer to it's own room with the 400 hps so the remaining 3 shorties are on the 600. The 400 on the sequoia is a Hortilux. The 600 is not and I honestly didn't even check to see what it was. Hopefully this will speed up this most confusing, slow, and problematic grow.

[GrowerXLT]

moreover123,

What method did you use to solve your problem. I am having a similar problem and need to do something about it quick. I have been reading this thread and can't seem to figure out what method you used to solve your problem. Check out my thread to see my sad sad plants http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=70902
Page three has the pictures of my root rot.

Thanks,

GrowerXLT

[Jdzzl03]

GrowerXLT- I had the exact same problems as you and moreover on my last grow. Once I talked to snoop, i immediatly dropped my ppm and stuck to his sched for the h202. While I was scrubbing out the rez i also opted to cut off all dead growth on the roots to eliminate as much of the dead matter as I could(I used my fingers and gently pulled out the bad stuff). Within a week I had healthy new roots exploding from the hydroton. Also everytime I changed my rez(weekly) I checked on the roots. It seemed like every couple of weeks I would have to cut out a small clump of dead roots but overall I was seeing more new growth than I was dying growth. One more thing, I also lowered the gph because I think that the pump I was using was pumping so much water that the roots were literally getting saturated. Dont know if this had anything to do with it but Im just trying to help, hope everything works out for the both of you.-Diz:rasta:

[moreover123]

grower - I just followed the suggestions here (which are ditto on your thread), and crossed my fingers. The roots still don't look great to me, but I can't ignore the plants - which are doing fantastic!

Questions...
I'm at 7weeks, 2 days into flower. I lost my giant tree due to one day of the water going too low. It was instant! I have growth on the bottom and am 1/2 tempted to try to clone it? Or would that be a waste of time?

2 plants have thick colas and are doing well. The 3rd plant decided to stretch on me. The flowers are less developed and the top more so. I'm seeing these little bud things on it which initially scared me in thinking it was turning boy. I think these are calyx's?

My big question is when to flush. I've zero clue how much longer they need to flower. Only last week or 2 have I seen trichs forming on the leaves. Here and there, I see a brown hair, but most hairs are white. I've no clue if they'll need another month or 2 weeks. Certainly if 2 weeks, I need to flush now. How can I tell?

[moreover123]

Things are going swimmingly here. Almost time to harvest. I'm seeing mostly cloudy trichs with a scant few ambers here & there. This is dependent on where on the plant I check.

Anyway, I'm worried about flushing. 6 Days ago I changed the buckets to only water and Florakleen. I let that run 1.5 days. Then switched to plain water 5 days ago. I'm worried I'm running out of time as I've no clue how fast these trichs can change color. I'm very concerned I won't have enough flush time. Is 7 days of pure water enough to get the junk out? I've been changeing the buckets every other day with fresh water.

Is there any way I can create conditions to slow down maturity? Or is 7 days of flush with an additional 1.5 days of Florakleen good enough to ensure good taste? Also, the leaves are as green as can be and showing no signs of yellowing yet. Just some at the top. I'm worried about all this. Today is 9 weeks of flower.