Shelbay...

[Gumby]

I do not know quite how to start this or what to say, but I do hope that it will remain civil and that our beliefs don't get in the way of trying to express them...

I guess I should tell you about my religion -

I was born from a Catholic and a Baptist (see where it all comes from :) ) but was raised Methodist... I was a leader in our church and played a huge roll in spreading the word and loving god as I knew him then... My family is very religious and I am the only one with a different idea of God than the rest of my family. My brother right now is at Moody's Bible Institute in Chi-town... So to say the least my family is and has been very Christian.

The Bible and church were around me a lot so I figured I'd read it a bit and try to learn about what I believed.. that's where Christianity and the Church as I knew it started to fall apart... the Bible itself is my biggest problem with the Church... so I guess we can start there??

The Bible... what do you think of it?? Fact/ Fiction or combo of both... what do you think about the other Gospels? and what about the fundemental beliefs in it?? do you think that is a good place to start this discussion??

Before we get into part and books of the bible, just in gereral, what are your feelings of it?

to me it is much like Mother Goose and a History book merged together... A bunch of moral fabels to help teach the world how to behave and love one another and a great history (mostly factual) of the middle east... But to me should not be taken as the Word of god, or as the 'rule book' for christianity... I think that is my biggest beef with the religion and the one thing that started a spark which lead me to believe what I do today...


hope things go better in here than in politics.. please don't take anything personal, and I hope you and I can turn this into a really good educated converstaion... thanks, and sorry if I have offended you before...

[Breukelen advocaat]

What Would Jesus Do?


Advocate child abuse and murder amongst many other cruelties.

Christians are always claiming, â??heâ??s the lambâ?�, â??our saviorâ?�, â??the king of peaceâ?�, â??the embodiment of loveâ?�, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other personâ??s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Letâ??s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesusâ?? â??lovingâ?� nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesusâ?? real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has â??come not to send peace, but a sword.â?� Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, â??Donâ??t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. â??The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. â??Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasnâ??t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17



Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didnâ??t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. â??An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.â?� Revelations 19:20-21



Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, â??lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.â?� Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12



Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: â??He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.â?� Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and heâ??ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, itâ??s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9



A few other things about Jesus:

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. Youâ??d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees donâ??t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

EvilBible (http://www.evilbible.com/what_would_jesus_do.htm)

[Shelbay]

Hey Gumby:) Catholic and Baptist huh? lol..Seems your blessed..kind of like the best of both worlds imo and explains your complexity alot..our parents do influence us for life whether people want to admit to that or not. Thanks for being earnest in wanting to keep this civil also..I enjoy debates but not disrespect so if I offend or cross a line that really bothers you please let me know okay? The Bible is a great start but not sure if we will debate it much..I agree with you on the Fact/fiction part to a degree..I believe the words have been tampered with by MAN..numerous changes have been made..such as not referring to darkness as being associated with evil,ie..being as it became pc to associate it with people of brown,black etc heritage as being evil..though I do read my Bible everyday..I prefer the Old Testament...but you have to understand that even though this is 2006 I come from the "old school" to a degree. For example..with todays youth being allowed freedom much more than my generation and I see it as leading to an immoral society..but there is hypocrisy in most churches that I also believe turn todays youth away from the truth about what Church and Bible study should really be about..in my upbringing we didn't question authority/parents..we did not question our elders..or the Bible..but I was blessed that I had parents that were total opposites and my Mother taught me about unconditional love where as my Father was a good Daddy but he was very emotionally distant and lived by the Bibles word as law..You said in one of your post that you notice Christians can't or won't defend their religion..did you ever think that maybe some of us are not accustomed to defending our religion/beliefs..key word defend..Where I come from that is one of the MAIN points of compatability for us to even date and marry..that is our "core" our beliefs and practices..so of course we are not used to that..not speaking for all just many of us here. I believe that the 10 commandments should be the "rule book' in Christianity..but I also believe in my Bible..I just learned to summarize it..as we all know it IS contradictory at times..but to me it is Gods word..if man would leave it alone..my opinion...my favorite 2 are Matthew and Revelation..how do you feel about those 2? Have to go ice my petits..could use some help:)

[Gumby]

what part of the world are you from shelbay?? I am have not been through the 'bread basket' of american and don't really know or understand how religion is taught. And I think that is where most of my ignorance comes from. I guess I'm assuming that everyone had religion around them like I did. I'm from a little town in FL and most of my home city was/is very religious. I was outcasted for being an 'atheist' but not in the terms of not having friends or excommunicated from the community... I was very popular in highschool, something I didn't really want either ;), but I did think that 'america' was like my town and that I lived the typical american lifestyle. We there was a freedom to learn what you wanted and to question what you were taught. Now I must admit is was yelled at and punished for my beliefs but I think it was mainly because of the way I expressed them. (as you can tell I can get a bit offensive at times)....

But when I was younger I realized, thanks to George Carlin and Gallagher none the less, that words are but words... they are letters put together to make sounds that convey meaning. And to use a better allusion,

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

--From Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)

for it is just the word that describes and conveys meaning... it's the predesposition of a 'rose' that allows you to understand what it means... so to me there are no 'cursed words'... I do have a loose tounge but I try to only keep it to topics that deserve it. Religion doesn't and I don't think cussing will help in the cause for expressing religion, I do think however that religion has put a sterotype on words and that it is correct to use some and incorrect to use others, which isn't correct.

by the way one thing that gets to me is that there is no Commandment saying that you shouldn't curse... the only Commandments directly related to speech is that of...

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

and

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

And what behooves me is the fact that we swear to god in our legal system, and we have a government, based on chirstianity right now, that does nothing but attack the Liberals.


As for the Bible, I don't like King James, or any modern bible now. After hearing about and reading some of the Dead Sea Scrolls it opened my mind and help me realize that the Bible isn't factual of the history in a whole and that there are other sources needed to fullfil God's message. Now that's not saying that God's message isn't in the Bible or that reading it is bad... but I do think it's jaded from a few things Jesus taught and believed that completely changed the idea of Chirstianity. The Gospel of Judas that was just discovered and restored was also amazing to me. I always had questions about the bible and how it contradicted itself, but always gave that to the fact that they are just words passed down for generations after the life and death of Jesus and the stories would be a bit different. Judas' Gospel taught me alot about the Gospel of John and about the Last Super in a whole. It put more doubt in me about how factual and unedited the first four Gospels were recorded. I must admit I have not read the bible in years and am not remembering much about the individual Gospels of the Old Testament nor the New ones for that matter, but like you I favor the latter...

But after reading more information about Jesus and God that wasn't in the Bible I made the personal decision that the Ten Commandments would be the 'word of God' that I would take as seriously as I could and try to follow as best as I can. But the rest was to me just a story and over the years the Bible has turned into that for me... So I hope my lack of knowledge of Matthew and Revelations isn't hindering the conversation, but I will say this...

There were more than 4 people around Jesus at his last supper and more than 4 people that he held close to him... I don't like that there are only four Gospels in the Bible... I believe the number of known Gospels is somewhere around 31. So, I've never been too fond of the 4 thinking they had some privy for being included... although I do think they were the oldest (not sure on that one, think John is the oldest). But like I said, I take the Gospels as just an overview of the teachings and history of the time.

Revelations scared the shit out of me. I don't remember much, just that I didn't want to know and that I didn't want it to happen. I think it, like Genesis is mainly comprised of ancient beliefs of the worlds beingings and the end of what will come. Evolution tossed Genesis out of view for me and the Rightousness of Revelations, as well as the exclusivity of it, lead me to not believe in it.

I also went to a high school where the Viking was the mascot and I learned that they had an idea of Heaven and Hell long before chirstians, however their hell was very cold and there heaven was hot... beacuse of where they lived and what they new. The Chineese and Aztecs ( I think aztecs, could be wrong on them) had a Flood story, much like the one of Noah long before his story was ever concieved. I think Revelations is just a story passed down from generation to generation about how the end of the world will come, not any historical prophecy of how the end will be. It along with Genesis are also, imo, the most used Gospels that are/were used to derive power from for the Church. The Idea that your God created everything and that he has the power the end it, and his control of everything before, during and after is the reason and tactic the Church uses to gain control and power of it's followers.

Have you seen the Dead Dea Scrolls or the Gospels of Judas?? The National Geographic channel did a great story on Judas' Gospels.

I want to also say that my youth was spent inside a church and the Ten Commandments were posted in front of me everyday, and that someone was trying to 'teach' them to me. But with only ten of them is amazed me that I had to find out one of them from a South Park episode...

I was never taught ...

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

nor understood it's meanings until only a few months ago... I didn't even know the wording of the Commandment was spose to be like that... which lead me to read them more and understand the Ten Commandments more... which also lead me to read this...

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

which has been conviently changed to 'go to church on sunday morning' ;) ... I mean to me there is a big difference between no work, and go to church and think about god... it just showed to me that religion is only what people make it and that if the world isn't the center of the universe, they don't change their belief, they change they meaning behind the belief... when the Church wanted to put Jesus and a Cross everywhere during the Crusades, they didn't change their belief in the graven image, they changed what it meant... much like the Holy Day... we don't keep a day holy anymore, we don't even come close... 90% of chirstians work on saturday and think sunday is the sabbath... I think that has a lot to do with why I don't like or agree with the beliefs that the Church keeps giving for the Word of God...

I know it's going to sound stupid and just as crazy as the Church, but I found god on mushrooms... I think I needed that complete open mind to understand and find my beliefs... and block the propaganda that the Church taught me about Jesus and God. I couldn't have come to the realization that I am at now without completly thinking of a whole different level and think that may be a hinderence in our conversation... so if something comes up that doesn't make sense or is different, please let me know and I'll try to explain a little more in depth.

Shelbay, I hope this doesn't come out wrong or is taken in the wrong way, but how do you have that much faith?? How is it that you can follow and believe in something you're not allowed to question?

[F L E S H]

We're all atheist when it comes to Zeus, Poseidon, Odin and Thor. We dismiss those stories as "myths", but then many turn around and believe with all their heart in the Bible aand in God and Jesus. But if you can so easily dismiss those more ancient claims, what difference is there that you should so ardently believe in a Christian God?

[THE MEDIC]

It's so refreshing reading a well thought out thread..Nice to hear the Nag Hammadi library beening talked about also. I missed the Discovery Channels rendition of the ''Gospel of Judus'' , does anyone know were I might download a copy ?

[beachguy in thongs]

It's so refreshing reading a well thought out thread..Nice to hear the Nag Hammadi library beening talked about also. I missed the Discovery Channels rendition of the ''Gospel of Judus'' , does anyone know were I might download a copy ?

Hey, have you read the book, "The Jesus Mysteries"?

Well, I started it and put if off, then the "Gnostic" who let me borrow it, had to move back to New Orleans because his wife left him, and he needed to be back near his home, because he has a young daughter and his wife took the truck.

[Gumby]

It's so refreshing reading a well thought out thread..Nice to hear the Nag Hammadi library beening talked about also. I missed the Discovery Channels rendition of the ''Gospel of Judus'' , does anyone know were I might download a copy ?

not the download but you can buy it...

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/783/3051/114.html

read it online...

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/?fs=www9.nationalgeographic.com

full text...

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com&fs=magma.nationalgeographic.com

I just remember it airing on tv in the middle of the night one time.... gotta love nationgeographic channel... it's what TLC and the Dicovery channel use to be before TLC went gay and Discovery went to Biker douches and crab fags.... it's a shame that that is what 'knowledge' is these days... i miss the old days when they had animals fucking all the time on there :)

[halo]

I think that all of the gods of the ancient world were extraterrestrials. To me that explains a lot of what happened back then. Especially with the ancient greeks and romans. All of their gods had complex relationships and very special characteristics. And when it comes to Jesus, i think he was sort of like the son of an extra terrestrial. I believe he was human but his spirit was much more advanced than those around him. Kind of like the Buddha. I don't really agree with all the stuff in the old testament. That god was not a loving god. He killed people on more than one occasion: Soddom and Gomorrah(sp?) The flood, etc. Anyways though, i do think our world would be better if everyone followed his or her religion how it is supposed to be. I cannot think of one religion that advocates war or killing. Most religions condemn violence. Christianity is anti-violence yet many wars were raged in its name. The same goes for Islam. I also believe in a supreme spiritual being (God i guess) but i do not necessarily believe in religion completely. It is too controlling of people. I know i sound contradictory but im kind of on a rant.

[Shelbay]

Hi Gumby..That was a good post! My little corner of the world is in Alabama..I grew up in Mobile..but please don't assume I am a hick as some make that mistake about all people from the South..I grew up around the Ocean and still visit..when there are no hurricanes that is..anyway..about my Faith..my learning part was the younger years..the basics of right and wrong..our way of life..and then life experiences kept my faith strong and made me stronger..not one experience in life have I ever doubted God..angry at him yes..but I always knew he was with me..always. With me I don't have to make it compex or use alot of useless words to just say I know he is real and I will always believe that. There have been to many times in my life that I had only him and my faith and it never let me down..it carried me through all the hard times..that led to where I am today..and saying that does not mean I am perfect okay..or that bad things will not happen in my life again..but if and when they do I have peace of mind knowing that I will live through it and that there is a reason for everything that happens in life..I don't have answers I just can say how I am and that I am at peace with my beliefs. I was sick a few years ago..had to have chemo and radiation..then I had pneumonia in my right lung..my immune system just crashed..broke down..I didn't sleep for like 2 days because I kept seeing these dark figures out of the corner of my eye and it scared me..I thought it was evil..I finally had to give in and went to sleep sitting up (only way I could breathe) but the feeling I had right before I went to sleep..it was so calm like..I wasn't scared anymore and actually felt happy that I might die lol..anyway..that was when I had my life changing experience that showed me it didn't matter if I was in Church every Sunday..or who said what..when its all said and done..its just you and him..he carried me and I KNOW he is there..there is so much more but I really need some coffee..maybe you will still be here..everyones circumstances are diiferent Gumby..and the way he works for everyone I am sure will be different from the way he works in my life..you asked where I got my faith and why I believe..Revelation 3:20 is a personal challenge imo..Here I am..I stand at the door and knock..if anyone hears my voice and opens the door,I will come in and eat with him..and he with me..coffees ready..I'll share:)

[Shelbay]

We're all atheist when it comes to Zeus, Poseidon, Odin and Thor. We dismiss those stories as "myths", but then many turn around and believe with all their heart in the Bible aand in God and Jesus. But if you can so easily dismiss those more ancient claims, what difference is there that you should so ardently believe in a Christian God?
Zeus was a myth?;)

[THE MEDIC]

Hey, have you read the book, "The Jesus Mysteries"?

Well, I started it and put if off, then the "Gnostic" who let me borrow it, had to move back to New Orleans because his wife left him, and he needed to be back near his home, because he has a young daughter and his wife took the truck.


Haven't read that one...I'm still working on TGT....probaly will for life...I hope things worked out for your "knowledge''seeking friend..bummer about the truck:(

[THE MEDIC]

Thanks Gumby

The links you posted were exactly what I was hoping for..

I agree with you on the direction those channels have taken, but......"Biker douches and crab fags"...lolll... I've been on the SpaceChannel a long time, things have changed..:D

[Gumby]

Shelbay, you're pretty much a neighbor... I live in FL and played so many soccer tounraments in AL. I have been to Mobile dozens of times and traveled to N.O. and passed through even more... The Gulf Coast has the best beaches in the world... Ever been to Grayton Beach??

I also think that you and I have much more in common with our 'religions' as well... I think my only difference is that I completly removed the human aspect of God and replaced it with the Earth... kinda like the Native Indians and Christian beliefs together... that everything has a spirit and is connected, but within that it is God... not a person who is watching and in control but an understanding of the world as a whole... it is the knowledge, understanding and peace that is gained from the Earth that is god... When I think of Jesus' last super and when he offers the bread and wine I don't believe he meant Bread and Wine... I think he meant food, grain the earth... take that ... know that is my body and remember that with relation to your body... the same with the wine... I just think Jesus also meant wine because of the way it affects the mind as well... getting high isn't a sin, it's a way to come closer to God, you just must know and understand that... But that is just my way of thinking about God and how I relate it to myself and my life...

I gave up on the Church and didn't have the faith you did... I also don't think that everyone should believe the same thing and that you having faith God is enough and all you need. I am glad to see that know the rethoric and hooplaa of the church is not the important part but it is just the relationship you have with God. I think my sterotype of christians comes because the churches from where I grew up has communities that cared more about the church than their relationship with God... it wasn't about the relationship with God it was about the relationships you could gain from by believing in God.

and when I watch the TV airings of church services I just see the same thing... people wanting to believe in something because a whole lot of other people do and it looks like they are good people that they would be good with them.... And the Popov's(sp) out there - he's the one that was caught having an ear piece getting 'words from god' and 'healing people'...

But all in all I am glad to see and understand what you believe now... I think we're very close and I just didn't think we could find the same ends from different paths... specially with you using the path that failed me... I knew we could have a good discussion and get somewhere...

Shelbay, what do you think of heaven and hell? ... I had a very weird revaltion about that last night have been thinking about it all day... too late for coffee but I'm smoking one before I hit the sack and will smoke it for you...



Medic, glad I could help... I loved what NationalGeo did with the Gospel... the sites really good as well... I had to upgrade the basic cable to get the good/real science channels, but am glad they are there... I even noticed that they are reairing 'Great Chefs of the World'... it was my favorite show on the Discovery Channel when I was young... actually taught you how to cook, instead of how to waste $40 everyday...

[THE MEDIC]

Beachguy, I'm not sure how far you got in your friends book but...I found a very interesting link that might be of interest: http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/07/26/192916.php

I'll be putting this one on my wishlist,thanks :thumbsup:


Gumby, the NationalGeo channel is in one of ExpressVu's bundles ,unfortunetly if I add one more bundle my head will explode...I know my wallet will implode!...My Mom was a devoted viewer of '' The Galloping Gourmet '' I picked up a few things..like..no matter what my eggs look like..they still taste like eggs!..:D as for the $40/Day, I've wasted more and I've wasted less... as long as at the end of the day.. I did my best...I'm happy:smokin:

[beachguy in thongs]

Beachguy, I'm not sure how far you got in your friends book but...

About, 22 pages.

[THE MEDIC]

is it worth the read?sounded interesting from that blog link..how were the pages you did read?

[beachguy in thongs]

Yeah, it was interesting. I learned what Gnostic religion really was. That guy told me that he wanted me to read that book, before he could explain it to me,
so I can be "enlightened", or whatever plain that he thought that he was on. He did say that "this area has the best bud", though. Gotta give him props on that one.

[THE MEDIC]

not looking for a new religion, just looking for some interesting articles/logos, historic and factual...I all ready have some good fiction books I can fall back on when I want to read that stuff...I've met a couple of "enlightened'' people after they'd lost their trucks...I'd have keep the truck...thanks for your heads up on the book...much appreciated ..

[beachguy in thongs]

I wasn't looking for a new religion, nor was he trying to convert me, or anything. He wanted me to learn of where he was coming from with his beliefs, so that I could understand him.

I just wanted to know his belief and when he told me that he didn't believe in Jesus, he wanted me to read that. I didn't mean that he wanted to enlighten me, but, he said, "And, before I was enlightened..."

I'm sorry, I threw myself off.

[THE MEDIC]

he didnt believe in Jesus as the savior ,the teacher or the man?

[Shelbay]

What happened to you medic? Thought you and beachguy were enjoying this thread?

[THE MEDIC]

I know I was..:D

[Shelbay]

Wow!..that was quick..you replied right after I came back online..maybe beachguy will come back now and you guys can finish my thread.;) Doesn't take much.:D You seem like a beck and call sort of guy.:D

[THE MEDIC]

sorry about the hijacking Shelbay..I have a bad habit of jumping in to a conversation and losing the "thread"....my Ex. thought the same thing about the beck and call...thats why she's my Ex..;)

[beachguy in thongs]

he didnt believe in Jesus as the savior ,the teacher or the man?

He believed that Jesus was taken from other stories, all showing what we can become as a human being. That we are all intended on becoming a Christ.

[beachguy in thongs]

Sorry, I was pretty stoned.

He didn't believe in Jesus, the savior, teacher, or man.