Why do you use psychedelics?

[420mory]

the first time I came across mushrooms was when some friend of mine told me, hey girl we bought some shrooms
wanna join us ??
and I was like sure, not having much of an idea what to expect
I heard some things about it but I could not imagine what I would see
I thought maybe smurfs or gnomes or fairies something like that
so the first time was pure for the fun
and also the second time was but then I started to learn things about myself and the world and that was the reason I continued doing it after those 2 times
and it really makes u appreciate life again for all the small things and the big things
and u get respect for plants , friend , stuff , envirement and so on
its beautifull

[harmonicminor]

for me it takes away my bad headaches that I get due to neck problems.
but soon I will get the Nobel Prize for finding out what the dna double helix is made up of :p

[Dextromethorphan]

"but soon I will get the Nobel Prize for finding out what the dna double helix is made up of "

hahaha nice.

Read my thread called "An In-Depth account of one night with Psilocybin" for more on my say in the matter.

[Jeff Spicoli]

for fun. like everyone else does. don't feed me any of the spiritual bullshit, haha

[Dextromethorphan]

"for fun. like everyone else does. don't feed me any of the spiritual bullshit, haha"

Whatever man

[Its a Plant]

haha to each his own.
there's no right or wrong reason for doing psychedelics.
come on dex, more open-mind less hostility.
you know the drill.

me personally, I do them for a combination of fun and enlightenment.
I almost always learn something about the world when I trip, whether it's about myself or anyone else, or even people in general. I enjoy the solitude of tripping, and value that more than any other part of a trip. If I can't even get a minute or two for my own personal discovery, then the trip isn't complete. That's just me though, and I know plenty of others who do it just for "fun", and that's fine by me, but taking some alone time while tripping is definitely recommended.

I also like how tripping removes any sort of restraints on my mind, and it goes whereever the wind takes it, which I guess sort of goes with learning things about myself and the world.

[Dextromethorphan]

What is there to be open minded about? Using chemicals just for "fun" or to get "high" is what I consider disrespectful. Misusing drugs gives conscientious users a bad name.

â??don't feed me any of the spiritual bullshitâ?�

You tell me who needs to be more open-minded.

[enthused]

I use them because I want to. I want to have fun. I want to sit in awe staring at a beautiful forest for hours. I want to write crazy guitar riffs and interesting lyrics to a song. I want to be tripped out. I want to feel like the music I hear is inside of me and part of me. I want to be one with nature. I want spiritual enlightment. There are plenty more. Simply..I do it because I want to.

[Its a Plant]

well dex, first off I am pretty sure spicoli was being somewhat sarcastic, so that was just jeff being jeff.

and really who did write the book on "misusing" drugs? When does someone consider a person to be "misusing" drugs? Where do "misusing" and "conscientious users" meet? I'm just saying that simply b/c a person doesn't do drugs for the same reason as you that it is indeed "disrespectful". Don't get me wrong, crack heads are one thing, but just b/c some people want to have a little fun doesn't mean they are bringing psychedelics a bad name.

[Dextromethorphan]

The use of anything for purely parasitic purposes is obviously gluttonous and abusive. Indulgence for puerile reasons is synonymous to misuse as far as I am concerned.

Moderation and discretion must be implemented and incorporated into every aspect of oneâ??s daily life. It is a harmonious and pure way of being, the high road if you will. Iâ??m not saying that it is easy or even achievable, but it is certainly something to strive for. These feelings flood over into my views about drug use; to take any drug for selfish reasons is disrespectful to the substance and offensive to those who value it. Mental masturbation with psychoactive chemicals in pursuit of a pointless and trivial â??highâ?� is blaspheme to any true psychonaut.

Iâ??m not trying to sound â??holier than thouâ?� about this, but I feel pretty strongly. For kids looking for cheap thrills there are lots of other superfluous drugs out there to take. Maybe I'll write the book.

[Its a Plant]

Well I would read that book.

[Jeff Spicoli]

"misusing drugs for fun is disrespectful." People use drugs for fun, don't bullshit me on that, on more than 90% of the time. 2% use them for actual spiritual reasons, and 8% who won't admit they use them for fun.
i hate sundays

[Dextromethorphan]

So 98% of the people you think do drugs do it for the wrong reason.

[Its a Plant]

I think he's trying to say that you're the one that thinks it's wrong.

Not everyone is going to think it's wrong.

You have your opinion, he has his, it's that simple.

That's what makes the world so amazing : no one has the same opinions about anyone else. Every single person is unique and their own.

[Dextromethorphan]

You're just trying to diffuse the debate. Let it go on.

[bedake]

Personally I think MOST of the people that say they use psychedellics for insight or to open their 'third eye' are just shitting themselves and others... they just want to get fucked and have a good time... the insight is just a minor bonus.

[harmonicminor]

I think for enjoyment or spiritual both are ok. It is those who condemn it who give it a bad name because they are the ones who take pharms most of the time. Or they are the ones selling it. The schools, media push thier bullshit propaganda on people while they feed our kids ritalin and give them cancer. I could go on and on.
Its like the oil and pharmacuetical companies who made cannabis illegal
just because it would make them not be able to stockpile all the peoples money. They also gave the users a bad name and created fear in people so they wouldnt do it but the fact is that it is good for you instead of bad.
while drinking kills millions and turns people into addicts, tripping for fun can be enlightening without anyone getting hurt.

[harmonicminor]

If people were to just want to get fucked up they can do it legally at a bar without people bothering them, untill they kill someone driving drunk.

but whats the harm in doing it in a way that wont harm anyone????

[Dextromethorphan]

â??I think for enjoyment or spiritual both are ok. It is those who condemn it who give it a bad name because they are the ones who take pharms most of the time. Or they are the ones selling it. The schools, media push thier bullshit propaganda on people while they feed our kids ritalin and give them cancer. I could go on and on.
Its like the oil and pharmacuetical companies who made cannabis illegal
just because it would make them not be able to stockpile all the peoples money. They also gave the users a bad name and created fear in people so they wouldnt do it but the fact is that it is good for you instead of bad.
while drinking kills millions and turns people into addicts, tripping for fun can be enlightening without anyone getting hurt.â?�


Wow, you sound like every other confused young person who knows that bad things are going on but doesnâ??t know what causes them so they blurt out a bunch of random shit that isnâ??t true but has some vague connection (or not) to the subject at hand. You changed subjects about 100 times in that little rant too.

Those who condemn recreational drug abuse give drug use a bad name? What kind of lame argument is that? Then to go on and say that the people who wish to accomplish something from their use are, in fact, the people selling drugs to kids looking to get high? I donâ??t really mean to be rude, but what the fuck? That has absolutely no relevance to the discussion whatsoever and is completely unsupported (not to mention ludicrous).

Since when did Ritalin cause cancer? Give me a break.

What the flaming fuck does the oil industry have to do with the legalization of marijuana? Your little bit about the pharmaceutical companies being in some sort of conspiracy with the federal government to prohibit marijuana use might have some truth to it, but it is not pertinent to the discussion at all and is also not supported.

Alcohol is a legal, addictive, dangerous and poisonous drug that is probably the epitome of American Governmental hypocrisy, but that isnâ??t what weâ??re talking about nor does it complement your point. I agree with you about alcohol and the unfairness of it all, but get your facts straight please. These flagrantly erroneous conspiracy theories are better left to somewhat informed and coherent people who can make stuff up better than you.

How about another go at writing a post that makes any sense at all?

[Trichocereus Panza]

Dex, I totally get where you're coming from, and I myself feel pretty intensely turned off to the way psychedelics have come to be regarded in our culture. It's becoming almost as alienating to me personally as the "let's go get drunk" mindframe. If you spend any time living on a college campus, you realize it's no wonder that psychedelics have gotten a bad name. I think the drug users' attitude towards them needs to change in order for the public attitude to change---people being reckless, over-indulgent, irresponsible, obnoxious and stupid on psychedelics merely adds fuel to the fire of anti-drug propaganda, and it simply perpetuates that attitude within our own youth culture. I hate when spiritually-minded people I know refuse to even try psychedelics because they have seen too many people abuse them. It's frustrating because I KNOW the right set and setting would help them SO much in figuring out their lives...

All that being said, I feel your argument is a bit dualistic.

There are not hard categories of 'positive use' and 'misuse'. Anyone who uses them knows that each experience is a mix of both. And one of the most important realizations on the spiritual path is that WE'RE ALL THE SAME. Every last one of us. Its_a_Plant DOES have a point when he says

That's what makes the world so amazing : no one has the same opinions about anyone else. Every single person is unique and their own.
Sure we all have different opinions, we have different styles, but we're all doing the same thing in different ways. And it's impossible to do it wrong. When you can see the world from a perspective of nonduality, arguments seem pointless. And you realize that we are all just expressing ourselves perfectly at each moment, and all of us are saying the same thing, which is.... IT.

Shunryu Suzuki talks about this pretty well with the concept of "little mind" and "big mind" in Zen. At a certain point you just realize that all of our "little mind" ego-centered thoughts are just a manifestation of big mind, which is everything. That is why in meditation you try not to judge yourself. No matter what, you are not doing anything wrong. You just let go of each thought and let it pass naturally. And then you realize that THAT HAPPENS NATURALLY whether you intend it or not. Everyone's life is a meditation, and your thoughts are the same as anyone else's: just clouds passing through the sky.

The things you say about not-wasting, and having respect for psychedelics are important. It is incredibly frustrating to me to see so many people with the "wrong attitude" towards them, mostly because I want everyone to see the joy inherent in their lives and to take advantage of the profoundly beneficial effects that are right there at their fingertips. I wish they could just TASTE it---taste *IT*---for even one second, and they would finally KNOW how beautiful life is, and how much energy they have been frittering away on ephemera.

But then the frustration subsides as I realize that we are each living out the reality of life in our own way. It is like music, it ebbs and flows, has moments of tension and frustration and wrong-headed thinking, and sometimes hopefully the tension is resolved in a clear-headed, spacious, moment of peace. But every one of those moments is a beautiful and creative manifestation of the same kind of energy. Do you know what I mean? There is nothing ULTIMATELY wrong with the way those people are living.

I think you and I know, along with many other people, what they are missing. How can they take psychedelics and just not get it? That to me is crazy. It's crazy to me how all human beings make themselves suffer. But at the same time, it's okay. The most we can hope to do is teach people what we have to offer, and hope that we can help them discover the true potential of drugs.

So to sum up this longass post:
There is no real line to draw between the laughing Buddha, what Terrence McKenna called 'the cosmic giggle,' and just plain-old being ridiculous and silly and having fun with your friends on psychedelics. Spirituality--contrary to what the Catholic church would have you believe--is not by any means something totally SERIOUS.
:D :p :D :p :D :p
love.

[harmonicminor]

I meant outlawed it you know "PROPAGANDA" or is the word too big for you
maybe you should reread then buddy and do some investigation yourself
and who you callin a kid??
why do you condemn people for taking it for the effects alone????
you sound like the people that say pots bad
they HAVE found a link between Ritalin and some cancers look it up
maybe some of it sounded wierd to you but it is hard to get my point across

[harmonicminor]

to be saying "I use it for spiritual purposes" and thinking your better than people that take it for the high is fucked up
get off your high horse

[Trichocereus Panza]

to be saying "I use it for spiritual purposes" and thinking your better than people that take it for the high is fucked up
get off your high horse
LOL.
I think harmonicminor just expressed what I was trying to say beautifully and in fewer words. Who cares if somebody's not making sense anyway? I'm not judging either of you.
Love.

[harmonicminor]

well I am sorry though for saying it
we shouldnt be arguing about this shit
we are a result of our environment I guess
who cares what they use it for because the end result for the person is the same
it is the people that down it that maybe should try it for themselves

[Its a Plant]

lol, I was kind of trying to say the same thing, but didn't come right out and say it.
Maybe I should have, but I was in a good mood, and don't think I could have created such an angry post like that dex

Like I said earlier:

you're the one that thinks it's wrong.

Not everyone is going to think it's wrong.

You have your opinion, he has his, it's that simple.

I agree with a lot of what your saying, but the way your trying to get your point across does sound like you're above doing psychedelics for the high and feeling of it all. The feeling of it all is the best part, so no one should try and honestly tell others that it's wrong. It's too powerful to be wrong.

Aight, still in a good mood, wow.

one love.

[Dextromethorphan]

Youâ??re still not getting your point across to me. Please form complete sentences so I donâ??t have to decipher what you are trying to convey â?? it leaves less room for my misinterpreting. If I was against the use of marijuana why would I even have an account here? You must not have understood what I was saying if you think I â??sound like the people that say potâ??s bad.â?�

I think that using potentially enlightening and profound substances just for a â??highâ?� is a waste. If that puts me on a high horse then so be it.

[Dextromethorphan]

Above post was intended as a response to HarmonicMinor

[Dextromethorphan]

â??you're the one that thinks it's wrong.

Not everyone is going to think it's wrong.

You have your opinion, he has his, it's that simple.â?�


This is certainly true, but if I was just to accept that and stop the thread what else would I do tonight?  Iâ??m not hold any grudges against anyone, Iâ??m just here for a good debate.

[Its a Plant]

oh yeah I get you there, just wasn't too sure if you understood what I was trying to say.
I'm also here for a flame-free discussion, so no hate here.

[yoda]

I use them because I want to. I want to have fun. I want to sit in awe staring at a beautiful forest for hours. I want to write crazy guitar riffs and interesting lyrics to a song. I want to be tripped out. I want to feel like the music I hear is inside of me and part of me. I want to be one with nature. I want spiritual enlightment. There are plenty more. Simply..I do it because I want to.

right on man, but i cant play guitar while still hallucinating, the dots on the fretboard are everywhere! but day after is incredible.

the first time i tripped, with acid, i just wanted to see shit. i didnt know much about the actual effects, my friends said they couldnt actually describe it, and i can see why. but ive done it 2 times since then, and i want the whole experience. the thoughts that go through your head, the beauty of life, and yeah, the crazy shit you see.

[harmonicminor]

ok heres how it is
most people that use it for the high dont realize its spiritual purposes because they think spiritual is to go to some church on sunday. when they do it though they will most likely have a spiritual expereince and like it. They like the extra insight it can bring and the euphoric feeling. who cares what they call it
to them it is a high because they think spiritual lies in a church

now to me getting fucked up from drinking is bad and I wish more people came to love entheogens instead. the world would be a safer place
I would much rather have my daughter when she gets old enough to "get high" from entheos than huff some gas with classmates wouldnt you with your child???

[harmonicminor]

right on man, but i cant play guitar while still hallucinating, the dots on the fretboard are everywhere! but day after is incredible.

the first time i tripped, with acid, i just wanted to see shit. i didnt know much about the actual effects, my friends said they couldnt actually describe it, and i can see why. but ive done it 2 times since then, and i want the whole experience. the thoughts that go through your head, the beauty of life, and yeah, the crazy shit you see.

I love playing guitar while tripping as I can write songs that I wouldnt normally think of while sober

[Trichocereus Panza]

I'm also here for a flame-free discussion, so no hate here.
That's the spirit!

"Flame free" is the key. Dex maybe the next time you are off having one of your supposedly "spiritual" experiences on entheogens, you should ask the plants to teach you a little patience and caring. I'm talking about COMPASSION and the equanimity not to be disturbed or frustrated when someone contradicts your views.

I'm just saying, every genuine spiritual experience I've ever had has made me want to give up arguing with people, because it doesn't get you anywhere. The very structure of argumentative discourse prevents meaningful communication: it encourages taking sides and adopting views for their own sake, rather than for the sake of discovering the truth. It becomes more about pride, and the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the people involved than having a truly good discussion, which is by nature collaborative. And once you realize that we humans are not in competition with one another (a TRUE spiritual insight), flaming becomes the last thing you want to do to somebody.

[Trichocereus Panza]

I think that using potentially enlightening and profound substances just for a â??highâ?� is a waste. If that puts me on a high horse then so be it.
I think we need to define what "just a high" means. And what do you think is so wasteful about it?

I mean if we're talking about over-harvesting peyote or something, then you start to have a really good case. But what about the easy-to-get mushrooms growing plentifully in your neighbor's bedroom (which you could grow yourself if you felt you didn't have access to enough)?

Are we talking purely supply and demand here?

[Dextromethorphan]

Panza, my spirituality does not stop me from being a realist.

[ChronicMike]

Cause i like to explore my mind mane.

[thcbongman]

I think that using potentially enlightening and profound substances just for a â??highâ?� is a waste. If that puts me on a high horse then so be it.

Should we be smoking weed for only "spiritual reasons?"

Don't give me that horse shit. I'm sure you smoke weed to get high. Weed can be used as a spiritual sacrament and you won't be hard-pressed to find individuals who argue this very fact.

A lot of people get caught up in spirituality when doing psychedelics, including myself. The concept of spirituality varies from perspective to perspective anyway. Couldn't the concept of spirituality and fun go hand-and-hand? Is that possible for the average non-psychedelic mind to comprehend? Probably not.

The reason I can't stay away from psychedelics is the perspective you acquire and see from. To me, it's childhood pre-packaged in a 6 to 12 hour substance. To see from a mind of the innocent in a grown perspective. Not to mention tripping with a few of your close friends is a lot of fun :)

[Dextromethorphan]

In my previous statement, "potentially enlightening and profound substances" referred specifically to the "harder" and more psychedelic drugs (mescaline, LSD 25, psilocybin, dextromethorphan and the like) not to marijuana even though it is technically a psychedelic. Marijuana is so commonly used it is hardly worth the argument to include though its use as a spiritual tool I believe to be superior its use a social drug.

[thcbongman]

In my previous statement, "potentially enlightening and profound substances" referred specifically to the "harder" and more psychedelic drugs (mescaline, LSD 25, psilocybin, dextromethorphan and the like) not to marijuana even though it is technically a psychedelic. Marijuana is so commonly used it is hardly worth the argument to include though its use as a spiritual tool I believe to be superior its use a social drug.

Why not? Just because something is commonly used doesn't mean you omit the spiritualistic properties. A lot of drugs can bring forth a spiritual experience, psychedelic or not. You mentioned a disassociative. PCP could be enlightening, Ecstacy.

With that being said, there should be no barriers to purpose when enjoying drugs. People have different tastes in lifestyle and that has direct correlation with the reason. It can't be the same for everyone.

[Trichocereus Panza]

Panza, my spirituality does not stop me from being a realist.
Was that an answer to my question? What kind of things does a realist think? By 'being a realist' do you just mean that, realistically speaking, the more people who use LSD for selfish reasons, the greater the problem of its scarcity becomes, and the less there is available for more legitimate purposes?

I still want to be clear on where the line is between something that is "just a high" and an experience that is purely spiritual. Is there any experience that is not spiritual? Why is there some kind of binary between the two? "Being a realist," if it means dividing things into strict categories, strikes me as a hindrance to the spiritual path. It means seeing the world through specific ideologies and agendas that are self-limiting.

What is a high? An experience of sensory enjoyment? Well then what is spirituality? What could be more spiritual than attunement to one's own bodily experience in the moment and a connection to the sensuous world around us?

The vagueness of the word "spiritual" bothers me, and there is even a certain vagueness to the word "high." It is often when we are high that we are able to gain the most perspective on life, literally like being on a mountaintop and looking out over everything, the hills and the valleys, the suffering as well as the good in the world. I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on the word "spiritual," because it is important to recognize the tensions in our own views on things. It's not a bad thing, just something worth being aware of.

[harmonicminor]

to me weed can be spiritual and heres why...
because it will allow me to see things from a different angle that I cant see when I am sober. just like tripping but less intense

now when you first did acid did you do it for spiritual reasons??? I highly doubt it. but after doing it you realized reality can be a little more than you realized if looked at in a different frame of mind.

[LegallyBlind]

Dex, you are reading poeple's statements, and you are completely warping them into what you want them to say, so that you can in turn argue with them about it. You are also doing it in a mean and disrespectful fashion.
Grow up man.

[CaptainDankNuggets]

I love to feeling the out of bodies the trippiness

[Dextromethorphan]

"Dex, you are reading poeple's statements, and you are completely warping them into what you want them to say, so that you can in turn argue with them about it. You are also doing it in a mean and disrespectful fashion.
Grow up man."

If you don't have anything nice to say...

[Dextromethorphan]

Legallyblind, I guess you're just pissed because I'm making you think?

[Dextromethorphan]

You are wasting your time if you arenâ??t learning something â?? that is my philosophy. I think that getting high entails taking psychedelics for granted which is what I am opposed to.

When I say I a realist I mean that, while I can understand your point, the â??equanimity not to be disturbed or frustrated when someone contradicts [you]â?� doesnâ??t work in the real world. Theoretically, if we all smoked a lot of dope and felt as passive as you seem to then â??weâ??d all just get along.â?� That isnâ??t the case. If I chose to exercise my Zen here and just let everyone say what they wanted without raising relevant issues and pointing out inconsistencies, I would effectively be inhibiting others learning. My intention is to force everyone to think about their preconceptions.

[harmonicminor]

well if you think you found drugs due to spiritual reason I think your full of crap. your friends prolly said "hey ya wanna trip??" and you said "whats that???" but then you saw it had spiritual value.
so tell me, what kind of spiritual value do you get from it exactly??
do you find god????

also do you think other people will say get a tab of lsd at church???
shit no
the true nature of the experience has been suppressed for the most part
they made it look like dirty hippies just doing drugs and looking at the stars and saying "wow man the sky is falling"

[Dextromethorphan]

what?

[Trichocereus Panza]

...raising relevant issues and pointing out inconsistencies,...That's exactly what I am trying to do with you, watch:

My intention is to force everyone to think about their preconceptions.What about helping, rather than forcing? That is the essential wisdom taught by the Tao teh Ching, that the problem with the mind is that we get in our own way and try to force things into accord with our preconceptions of how they should be. Rather than getting in someone's face, it's possible to compassionately guide them in the right direction. Perhaps difficult at first, but with every person there IS a way if you can gain their trust. People naturally have inclinations to be spiritual and to learn about themselves, but they inhibit themselves out of fear. They need to "get out of their own way." If you stand in their way also, it just makes it doubly hard, and confusing and difficult, for them to learn: when they feel irreconcilable tensions between different ways of thinking. You DO need to raise issues that will help them to learn, but this is a matter of helping them to get out of their own way, not trying to trip them up to show them how "wrong" they were.

Theoretically, if we all smoked a lot of dope and felt as passive as you seem to then â??weâ??d all just get along.â?� That isnâ??t the case.There is a difference between being passive and not being aggressive. That middle way is part of my spirituality. There is a REASON that Zen emphasizes compassion so much, and it needs to be practiced in every aspect of our day-to-day lives. Practically everything I post on these issues is aimed at helping people to sort things out in one way or another, and that is far from being passive. You and I just have a difference of emphasis or attitude in doing this, but it is a relevant difference. When's the last time you taught someone a meaningful lesson by arguing the hell out of them and getting them to submit, arguing them down until they gave up and said they don't want to talk about it anymore (which is more likely than admitting they were wrong)? The interpersonal tensions of arguments already provide a stubborn emotional inhibition to true learning for most people; as I said before, learning is collaborative. It really is. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, because I've seen it and experienced both ways. Take the current situation: if you see yourself as being in an argument with me, you're just not going to fully get what I'm saying. And I wouldn't blame you, because emotions are just as much a part of comprehension as logic is.

If we don't "all just get along" yet in the "real world," it is because people who are on the verge of KNOWING how to get along with everybody (like you) don't practice their beliefs fully. If spiritual insights don't apply to every aspect of life and the "real world," then how can they count for anything? Are they just for private, personal enlightenment? I hate to dissappoint you but there's no such thing: enlightenment is a state of reality, not a state of mind. It's just the way things are naturally in the universe, and not something that can be attained by an individual; individuals can attune themselves to the way of things, but only by seeing how we are the same as everyone else and acting out of compassion for that fact. This is only one way of expressing the dharma, but it means the same thing as any other expression.

I think that you have compassion, but you need to acquire skillful means. That is, looking deeply into each situation to understand what is called for in the particular instance, rather than following a formula established by ideas you've had in the past. Even on a forum, this applies. Every post should be different; your every assertion must not necessarily be consistent with the last one, but only with what the person needs to hear to help them overcome personal barriers.

â??equanimity not to be disturbed or frustrated when someone contradicts [you]â?� doesnâ??t work in the real world.Well, it works for me in MY real world, which is the same as yours. I think it would work for you too if only you'd give it a try. But most people are afraid to give it a try. The most difficult thing about spiritual wisdom is realizing that it CAN be applied to "real life," social situations, and getting over the delusion that once you enter the social realm of things, the rules are different and that you have to have a different mindset to go along with them.

As I said earlier, I don't think you and I are that different on this. It is the structure of "argument" itself that causes the appearance that we are pitted against each other on opposite "sides." In reality, there aren't any sides at all.

[Dextromethorphan]

What a great thread this is! It isnâ??t very often that we get into as big of a debate as we have on this one. I say debate because that is what we are doing â?? not arguing. Weâ??ve wandered way off topic now. Iâ??ve been trying to keep this about the different motivations for drug use and their validity, but Iâ??m happy to go down this road.

So you think that by relating my thoughts in a relatively aggressive way I am stopping people from seeing my message? I can buy that, though I didnâ??t actually think I was being aggressive. The message is the same but the method is different.

I still think I need to press the issue further though:

I believe in community. I believe that a small group of people working in harmony is a great and natural idea. In theory, if everyone did their part and didnâ??t slack off ever, if no one ever took a second serving of bread this would work. Unfortunately, man is naturally inclined to preserve himself and get ahead, and this always foils the plot and makes large-scale versions of communism fail.

I think that it would be great if everyone took time to explore themselves, come to terms with what they are, and seek spiritual illumination, but Iâ??m not going to fool myself into believe that this will happen. The same principles apply here as they do in communism. Itâ??s a damn shame, but it is what it is. What youâ??re saying, I think, is that people will figure it out by themselves when they are ready, and that pushing the point wonâ??t help. Why not push the point? Can it really hurt? Emotions aside, I think you can see what Iâ??m trying to say. If you can look at what Iâ??ve written with a level head, understand it and take something from it Iâ??ve done what I intended.

[harmonicminor]

maybe for people to use hallucinogens the way you would want is for people to not see it as just a drug. but for now thats what it is classified as and thats how people will try it. to them even after trying it they wont really see the spiritual connection because they dont know what that is in the first place because they were force fed what they learned in church and nothing else. but nonetheless they will have a spiritual experience from it whether they realize it or not.
do you see what I am trying to say??

[BestTonicIsChronic]

I like the going "crazy" for a period of time, it helps me to appriciate sobriety, but I need a refresher every once in a while.

[Dextromethorphan]

That is an interesting angle, harmonicminor.

[LegallyBlind]

Legallyblind, I guess you're just pissed because I'm making you think?

Dex there you go again taking someones statement and warping it into what you want it to say.
NOT ONCE did I ever say or imply that I was angry because you were forcing me to think. That is as far from the truth as it gets. All you are doing is causing trouble for the sake of it.

[Dextromethorphan]

I haven't warped anything.

[BestTonicIsChronic]

Its also human nature to want to expiriance alterd states of reality. Like little kids who spin around and it feels good as your doing it, then like 40secs after you stop you feel like utter-shit, but the next day their doing it again. Its just human nature. I wonder if other animals like dogs ever want to get high?

[harmonicminor]

cats do :-)

[Dextromethorphan]

catnip for all

[Nexus07083]

Why do them...hmmm

Well, cuz compared to other drugs they make you feel like you got the most bang for your buck. Why do people drink? To feel good and enjoy the carefree feelings that come with being fucked up. Same shit goes for psychs. Another reason? Unlike other types of drugs, with psychs every trip is completely different depending on a whole bunch of factors such as environment, mood, company, etc and so the shit never really gets boring. I hear lots of talk about spiritual growth, but seriously ask yourself something...what the hell can a person who can't even trust his own eyes because he's tripping possibly be learning. Are you guys sure that you don't just "think" or "feel" like your growing spiritually. What exactly does growing spiritually mean to each one in his own right anyway? I'm not saying it's not possible to grow spiritually but the whole things is spoken of in a misunderstanding way. Has anyone ever defined what it meant to grow spiritually from a drug? No. So instead of saying the most vague phrase in the drug world "I do it for spiritual growth" how about you guys describe just what the hell the spiritual growth your talking about is. I mean seriously, I hear that phrase and I wonder, "Spiritual as in what?" For some it can be in a religious sense, others for voodoo, others for whichcraft, others for life appreciation, others for realization of thy self, others for finding the answer to a problem in their life, others for confidence building, etc. So, anyone who thinks they're all high and mighty and wants to act like an ass who "seems to know what they're talking about" should just sit in a corner and repeat the words "I'm a loser" untill they can realize that they're really no fuckin genius and that if they were so smart they'd actually explain what the spiritual growth is for them instead of just using the vague words, "spiritual growth" ok.

[Dextromethorphan]

â??what the hell can a person who can't even trust his own eyes because he's tripping possibly be learningâ?�

It is thought by some that the abnormal reality one experiences on psychoactive drugs arenâ??t really hallucinations at all, but rather things that are actually there but not detectable because of dampeners on our sensors which psychedelic drugs suppress. Even if this is not true, whoâ??s to say whether this existence isnâ??t all just one big hallucination? I trust my abnormally stimulated brain when Iâ??m on drugs, just not to drive.

Iâ??ll give you an explanation of what psychoactive drugs do for me specifically in a while â?? I need time to formulate my words.

[Its a Plant]

I made the mistake of driving while tripping H A R D and I barely made it through a busy 5 o'clock traffic. Never again though.

lol say what you gotta say man no need to spell check and proof read a novel.
Type from the heart ... lol.

[harmonicminor]

some people under lab conditions have demonstrated telekinesis
I myself visit the other side and meet beings while using Salvia :-)
I also write songs while tripping because for some reason different music pops in my head that I normally wouldn't think of sober

[Trichocereus Panza]

seriously ask yourself something...what the hell can a person who can't even trust his own eyes because he's tripping possibly be learning. Are you guys sure that you don't just "think" or "feel" like your growing spiritually.C'mon man I think you know what is wrong with this logic. It's the same old "natural vs. artificial" debate again, and we all know that it becomes clear that everything in the universe is ultimately a natural thing. In the same way, there is no such thing as a "self deception" where you "just think" something is happening where in actuality you're wrong about it. What would it mean to be wrong about anything? There is just what you experience, which is a natural thing, self-sufficient for its own validity. Obviously there is no objective test to see whether someone is having a spiritual experience, but that's because there is no line to draw between spiritual and non-spiritual. It's all the same stuff.

As you point out, everyone has a different conception of what it means to grow spiritually, but that's only because everyone grows spiritually in their own unique, undpredictable, and individual way. There is probably no experience that doesn't cause us to grow in some way. We don't go backwards in life and we don't stand still either. Every moment is growth, and the reason we all have different expressions for it is simply what you said: every trip is different because of a variety of factors. So of course we are going to have different conceptions of what spiritual growth is for us individually, and some of us might not call it that at all.

As harmonicminor said, some people don't associate the word 'spiritual' with the kind of experiences we get on psychedelics. But we pretty much universally can't help but become ourselves, and feel love and sympathy for others, and feel happy and free. Those feelings take root in each of the individual situations we find ourselves in, and so there is always a different way of describing them. There is always a new way of saying it, which is how it should be. Just use what is right in front of you, because that is what exists.

I agree that the word 'spiritual' is vague. That is only because we are TRYING to define it, to pin it down, to give it an essence and talk about it in abstract terms. But it's never abstract; reality is made up of embodied experiences in the real world--it's not made up of words. There is a particular thing going on at each moment, and that's what spiritual growth is.

There is a lot of truth to the saying "whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger." Whether you realize it or not, you are learning from everything that happens to you. And that is true no matter HOW you've been taught to regard psychedelics, or how to regard life.

[harmonicminor]

and I banged a chick for 6 hours straight once :-)
now if that isnt spiritual I dont know whats is lol lmao :-)

[harmonicminor]

Panza,
you are one smart dude :-)

[Dextromethorphan]

When I said that I needed time to formulate my words I meant that I have shit to do right now and I don't want to think very hard. I'll post that bit tomorrow. :)

[harmonicminor]

lol makin ya think huh Dex???
just copy and paste the text from your other thread bro
it was an exellent report :-)

[Dextromethorphan]

haha, you got me there. Thanks about the report. I'm glad to see spirits are up and tension has cooled a bit.

[Trichocereus Panza]

where's the report, I'd like to read it :)

[Its a Plant]

it is pretty interesting.
they always are though.

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=66473

[Nexus07083]

Point blank...I just wish people would stop using the vague words "Spiritual growth" because it gives no meaning to anyone but the person who is saying it because nobody but that person can really know what spiritual growth is being talked about...it's just a waste of time to mention those words in general

Ex. Someone tripped and realized that their life was actually a good one. They then say that drug A has spiritual growth. That's all good, but nobody is going to know what the fuck your talking about. So, would it be that hard to instead just say, "Drug A makes me realize that life is good" ????? :confused:

I mean come on...I think we're all intelligent enough to explain things instead of acting like little kids and using meaningless words that are confusing...think about why your posting in the first place...to SHARE KNOWLEDGE and using vague words don't help anyone get a better understanding of anything

[Trichocereus Panza]

Okay so just becuase something is difficult to talk about in ANY words, means we shouldn't try to share it with each other?

What words are NOT vague? None. No words have static, determinate meanings. That is why creative, poetic language is better than trying to be technical and precise--because you recognize each word for what it is: provisional, having only a momentary meaning for the specific individuals at hand, that is contained as much in sound and gesture and personal history as it is in the WORDS.

I'm not disagreeing that I will have no clear idea what you're talking about if all you say to me is "LSD gives me spiritual growth." But say I know you a little bit, I have read a lot of your posts and I know what kind of person you are. Then I already have a better idea of your personal spirituality which colors the phrase for me. It won't be the same as if someone else had said the same thing, whom I know to have a very different personality. You COULD be more specific, and that would probably be better, but the phrase is not totally meaningless if I know the context in which you're saying it.

[Nexus07083]

Okay so just becuase something is difficult to talk about in ANY words, means we shouldn't try to share it with each other?

What words are NOT vague? None. No words have static, determinate meanings. That is why creative, poetic language is better than trying to be technical and precise--because you recognize each word for what it is: provisional, having only a momentary meaning for the specific individuals at hand, that is contained as much in sound and gesture and personal history as it is in the WORDS.

I'm not disagreeing that I will have no clear idea what you're talking about if all you say to me is "LSD gives me spiritual growth." But say I know you a little bit, I have read a lot of your posts and I know what kind of person you are. Then I already have a better idea of your personal spirituality which colors the phrase for me. It won't be the same as if someone else had said the same thing, whom I know to have a very different personality. You COULD be more specific, and that would probably be better, but the phrase is not totally meaningless if I know the context in which you're saying it.

True...and to all, I'm not trying to come off as an ass or anything for anyone thinking that i'm riding the high horse :thumbsup:

[harmonicminor]

hey as long as the horse is high off pot or tripping its ok :-)

[Trichocereus Panza]

lol, yeah... now THAT'S the right kind of high horse

[torbaci]

Originally, I was simply curious...:D then, when I didn't die or meet God, I figured I'd better trip some more to find out what it's all about...
now-a-days when I trip I'm looking for insights and enlightenment but I still enojoy the trails and melting objects and so on and so forth.:D