scrog info

[postmandave]

As peepo know ive been doing my first scrog so i have been reading up a bit more the last few days so i thought i would post some stuff i found incase its any use to any of you out there.the postman.

What is scrog?

scrog stands for Screen of Green and describes the practice of growing plants indoors on a horizontal, vertical or otherwise shaped screen.

Why scrog?

The use of screens to control the shape of the plant allows the lamp to be placed closer to a greater number of bud sites-and thus increases yield.

How?

For a basic flat scrog, fix a screen, or mesh, between 8"and 12"inches above your plants. Grow them up to it then bend the stems so that the shoots are growing horizontally along your screen.
You can allow the shoots to grow through the screen, then weave them back through; or bend the horizontally under the screen and tie them in position.
When the buds begin to form you can then position them above the screen to form a canopy of the desired profile.

Various sizes and materials are used for the screen, most going for a mesh size of around 2" square. Garden centres/DIY outlets usually sell rolls of plastic fence/mesh. Chicken wire is sometimes used but the thin bare wire can cut into the plant stem.

Who?

scrog
growing is usually done by smaller growers using one or two lamps, as access to plants and comparitively high levels of maintenance will be impractical for the larger or commercial grower.

How Big?

The same light to area ratio that applies to normal growing also applies to a scrog: thats is slightly less than 1msquare for a 400w, slightly over 1m square for a 600w.

Method?

The aim of a basic flat is to get the buds, during the final ripening stage of flower, in a flat, level canopy. To achieve this you will need to put the plants into flower at the right time-so they eventually stretch to fill, but not overfill, the screen. Getting this right involves a degree of guesswork and experience-and will depend on the particular growth patterns of the strain that you are growing. It is often stated that to fill the screen with a Sativa 50% of the screen should be filled before switching to 12/12; and 75% for an Indica-although from personal experience i've found that using these guidelines has resulted in plants that were too big.

here's a bit more

continued

There are a few other areas where scrog growing differs from conventional cultivation-one contentious issue is removing leaves and shoots. Many scroggers remove most, or all, of the growth below the canopy; this is to allow increased air circulation below the screen.

The canopy, when filled out, can act as a horizontal barrier across the growroom preventing adequate air movement and trapping stale, humid air below. Also, scrogging involves
growing the buds closer together than would normally be the case-both of these factors can increase the chance of mould, so along with removing leaves and shoots, a fan is often placed below the screen to move the air around.

It is also claimed that removing the lower shoots/buds concentrates growth in the upper part of the plant.

Variations

The screen can either be attached to the pots/hydro, to the walls, or be supported on a stand.
If they are attached to the pots, or small hydros, it may be possible to fit several smaller screens together whilst still remaining movable, or detachable. This is termed a 'modular scrog', the main advantage of this method being the ability to move the unit during the grow; a consideration for those who have both veg and flower rooms.

If the screen is fixed to the walls, or other immovable objects, then it will be necessary to arrange the pots/hydros in their final position at the beginning of the grow.

The grower also needs to be aware of the need for access to the plants during the grow and a fixed screen can make this difficult. Again, this is something to take into account at the beginning of the grow otherwise you may find that when the plants get big-you cannot reach them and things can get out of hand.

This may sound like waffle, or obvious, but access can be difficult even in small GRooms-eg if you have a room say 1m square with two or three fixed sides-its going to be difficult to get to the back once things have got going.
(on a personal note-when on crutches i got stuck on my back under a scrogfor a couple of hours until someone came along and pulled me out).

Canopy profile

The profile of the screen does not have to be flat. Some growers use a screen with a V shaped profile (V scrog), some with a curved profile while others continue the horizontal screen up their GRoom walls (vertical scrog).

[postmandave]

some more


Right then.

Soon scrogwill take over the world. If you're not doing it, you should be!

OK, so it doesn't apply to every situation but for the small grower, it takes some beating.

The topic of scrog is one that comes up time after time, yet still people are often confused and worried about getting the technique right. It's a shame because it isn't difficult, providing you know what you're doing

So, that's the point. We could do with a 'sticky' thread in which we can all share the knowledge.
Athread where people can ask questions related to scrog and find the answers.
A threadwhere people can divulge they're scrogging tips and tricks they have learnt over the years.
A thread that covers anything you can think of that involves a screen of green.
Basically THE lowdown onscrog.

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Fresh Air Inspector..

A strong statemment to kick-start proceedings, but I do agree with it heartily.

Small scalescrog growing is advantageous for a number of resons, IMO these primarily are.
Increase of yeild for the given flowering area.
Allows growers to reduce plant numbers somewhat.
Allows growers to control height of plants very strictly, useful in limited height situations.

Increase of yeild is the obvious and most rewarding benefit, and through using this technique every small scale grower can make significant weight gains IMO.
I have seen this technique make the cultivation of MJ plants possible in the impossible space.

Very basically, a scrog technique is used to train the branches of the plants to grow horizontally across a fixed grid which is placed about a foot from the growing medium or containers. Plant stems can be tied using twistie ties, soft plant rings etc etc
Vegetative growth fills the screen then the plants are flowered.
Because the branches are all aligned horizontally with mini colas protruding upward, the bud sites are exposed to a much greater proportion of the lamps light signature and bud formation is enhanced.
The amount of vegetative growth and thus the amount off 'fill' given to the screen before going 12/12 has been somewhat strain dependant IME - probably best discussed later????

Once a plant is in 12/12 I continue to tie the plants to the screen for 7-10 days until most of the stretch is over, I then like to let them stretch out finally just a touch so they are creating nice mini-colas.
Once the stretch is done, you no longer need to adjust the height of your lamp, this is great for lazy gardeners and also for peeps with as little as 3 1/2 to 4 ft of headroom.
It also means your plants wont burn if they have growth spurts when you are not there to move the lamp.

Good extraction and air movement over and under the canopy is a necessity.

This is only a simple outline, and I am sure this thread will generate many questions and lots of very useful information.
It is all about confidence (most growing is), I too was worried about trying this technique - but, boy am I glad I did.

Bumper yeilds and easy canopy control, I'm on the scrog bus.........


Some Q's and A's��.

Qâ?¦.i was wondering could the plants just b tied 2 each other using rings/ties instead of being threaded through a fixed grid
that way if 4 any reason u had 2 move the plant(eg sick plant /mites), u could easily do so without disturbing much else
Aâ?¦.you could always use a modularscrog.you get the advantage to move them round for whatever reason (watering/inspection etc) and making the most of the light.

Qâ?¦do you guys and girls top the plants before letting them hit the screen what are the pros and cons?
Aâ?¦..I think it's a bit "6 of one and a half dozen of the other". FAI prefers not topping but others (I think KS) top theirs.


Qâ?¦..In my cabinet (4x2x2) what sort of air moving capability will be necessary. I've got something for the top side of affairs - mainly to blow across the tops of the buds. But nothing below. Absolutely necessary or not?
Aâ?¦.Absolutely necessary.


A tip from Phat Farmer...

i put my screen on wheels so i can pull it out for ease of access when training and pruning etc......the pots sit on the bottom of the cart, and the whole thing moves like a trolley.



Some more Q's and As

Qâ?¦How big a factor is screen height?
Whats the maximum size for the screen per plant?
Aâ?¦As long as I can get my hand under to adjust the ties/position the buds,that's good enough for me.
Maximum size of the screen per plant?Let's look at it another way.
How many plants per square foot(30cm2)?
In general I go for one plant a ft.However,if the strain is a short stocky variety I will increase the numbers of plants upto as many as 4 per ft.
( more on this later in the discussion)


Qâ?¦.i have got th bubblegum clones and i was wondering would this strain be any good for a scrog ?
Aâ?¦ You can scrogpretty much anything, the BG will do well.

[postmandave]

Iâ??m a scrogger with questions-

what about removing leaves? To me it seems utterly crucial to chop aload off as the grow progresses, particularly to allow air circulation under the screen-but i have heard that all of the growth below the screen should be removed before putting the plants into flower-then pruning should be avoided during the stretch. Is this right?

I also trim leaves from the top of the canopy to allow air and light to penetrate better and carry on doing this throughout flower-and have met non-scroggers who say this is very bad.
Whatâ??s your policy?

How about trimming out some of the smaller bud sites to allow the plant to concentrate on the larger buds? My scrogs always seem a bit overcrowded-should i be meticulously trimming off buds following the â??one bud per screen squareâ?? rule-

So these Qâ??s are all about cutting-How much, when, where and why

Another question-with me it often seems to just happen that the largest buds, on the main stems, end up at the edge of the screen-and then i let them grow up a bit. Iâ??m not sure if this is right-i wonder, for example, if the largest buds should be positioned nearest the light (ie toward the centre of the screen)- how do you place the buds?

The art of scrog appears to getting the plants to just the right size before switching to 12/12 then positioning the buds in a regular even pattern-quite a hard thing to do. I am working on 1 plant / m² of screen and canâ??t imagine Miguel Vâ??s 10, 20, or 30 plants /m² -must be a short veg on those



fresh air inspector

Strain dependant imo, this was raised in another thread and the consensus seemed to be that it depended on how the strain reacts when leaves are removed. Does she slow or plough on??
Personally I like to remove lower branches that dont make it to the screen - they receive so little light and the plant is better concentrating its energy onto buds that are.
This also aids crucial air flow under the canopy.
Once in 12/12 I avoid any pruning - Less stress is best imo.
I do not remove leaves from top of canopy unless they are dying - i would rather reposition them


Biggles

I usually do 1 plant per sqft and veg for around 3-4 weeks with a screen height of between 8"-12", I dont usually use ties I just push them down and move them to the next hole, if it aint big enough to do this wait until it is, only use ties if you have to.

I dont usually have problems with leaves blocking bud sites as I dont let anything come up above the screen until the stretch is done with, The stretch with the strain Im using atm is always 23 days so I can plan where Im going to train them to the day

Dont make your screen any deeper than 30" unless u have access all round it, serious back problems will soon be yours if u do.

Scroggins a magic way of growing, all bud sites at the same level and it lets you use nice small lamps as well as you dont have to get deep down.

Just a few things that popped into my head, hope they help


BuildnBob

def scrog is the answer for increasing our yeild for our efforts & expense. Its easy to achieve, & ok, its a bit of effort but well worth the results. Here`s some pics from my first grow done with scrog in a cabinet. Also, a wooden board underneath the plants, with say cuphooks around the edges would also work in allowing fixings for the branches. As for overcrowding I simply harvested the top, & left the undeveloped buds in for another couple of weeks on ph5.5 only. Keep a check on the underneath for any dead leaves or buds & remove them that won`t make it. With my screen I tied it down in the middle with two fixings, & then put four slip knot fixings on each corner. This allows for tensioning (not too much though), & adjust it slightly each time over the growth stage, so the screen curves up allowing for max light to the buds



Fresh air inspector

What is the screen area, what lamp and what type of yeilds are you gettting with what plants??

My screen area is just a tad under 0.5 sq meters, 400w HPS and I have been dragging around 300g from this with a local clone (white witch??)


Good point made by biggles - I'd forgotten the merits of this, but he rightly points out that you can drop wattage (temps??) as you do not have to penetrate the canopy.

BuildnBob

the screens 700 x 400, just right for the tank & cabinet. As I`m using the cabinet for drying, Iv`e used the screen to hang the smaller buds from. As for yeild I haven`t a clue mate, theres more than enough though to keep me up in the clouds for a while

Jah bergerac

Bob's idea of harvesting the top buds then allowing the lower buds to ripen for two weeks sounds good. I tried this in a half arsed way on my last grow but only left the lower buds exposed for a few days which didn't seem to make much difference. This time i will leave them for longer to see if they fatten up much. If they do this will increase the yield by a significant amount.

How about the question of yields. What should those of us that are quite new to scrog be aiming at? FAI's 300g/0.5m, if my maths are correct, is similar to what i've got so far-that is 16oz/0.75m and 23oz/1m on the last grow. The 16oz was with a 400hps whereas the 23oz was grown with 400+600hps -so more than doubling the light did not double the yield.

If there are still any who still doubt the power of scrog-three friends who are 'experienced' growers have come over to give me some tips on my new hobby since i started. Each one has got excited on seeing a scrog for the first time and its ended up in a sort of scrog workshop. I'm surprised that more small scale growers don't use it.

Miguel Velcro

I like to hack off most of the fan leaves.I'll tuck the lower leaves but most of the upper ones get cut.
I try to cut the leaves off when they are young and small,before they cause shading issues.Doing it this way,to my mind at least,stresses the plant less and allows it to re-divert it's energies towards shoots/leaves I want to keep.
Is stress really a bad thing though?
Most of us seem to be cutting out the weak shoots,here's an interesting point:
For many years rose gardeners have thinned their plants to strong shoots,removing all the weaker lower growth just as we do.However,recent experiments have concluded that by leaving all the weaker growth intact,a greater quantity and size of blooms is acheived.It seems the plants use this inner canopy as an energy resource rather than it being a drain on their reserves. Food for thought.

Yields. I reckon the target for the acolytes of scrog should be around 2 oz per ft2 of screen.
__________________

[postmandave]

â?¦.Im always unsure in which direction to train the growing shoots and always end up with the main one near the edge which can cause some problems
Aâ?¦.. This is why I top my plants (alternative views on this later). I try to encourage several co-dominant shoots.
I top the clones,taking as small a part of the tip as is possible,when they are early in veg.I will also bend them if necessary to get the lateral shoots growing evenly.
Once they're into the screen I just spread the branches out across the screen.
Ok,so one shoot may be slightly dominant but the problem can be more acute with untopped plants.
To my mind,most problems are caused by too long a veg time.
Too short a veg time and your screen will not be entirely full but you'll get some nice fat nugs anyway.
Get it right and you'll have more nugs than you know what to do with and the prospect of the trim from hell���..ho-hum!
Veg too long and you are in danger of growing mainly stems.The canopy will be overcrowded and the buds will be too skinny.If you have vegged too long and you spot it early enough a good hack with the pruning scissors can sort it out.The only thing to do is get in and cut out some of the weaker growth.

Qâ?¦ are there any down sides to scrog?
Aâ?¦.You may have so much bud that you are overcome with DANKness !

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Unreal

i'm going upwards too in 2005 ! 3x the area of a standard flat incorperating a rail & a reflectless bulb(s)

i normally train the plants over & dont top unless i have to keep plants under 3feet off the net....reason being that plants with large predominant main colas will throw an abudance of prime scrog shoots when laid horizontal on the screen...and if plants are vegged large enough most mid plant branches will give a simular effect........

certain allowances can be made for overuns by adding vetical supports (box scrog) ........pullin the screen down central to form a dish which suits the bulb radiation pattern adds more screen area = more yeild......but if you dont hold it tight to the screen these can become to large & need further support .....IMO your aiming for budz between the 7-10 g mark.....& 15/20 budz per plant is about average

fan leave removal well! if it means loseing a leaf OR A PART OF ONE to achieve better bud site exposure I participate (just squint your eyes when u do it .....I find by clipping shoots to the top side of the screen only allows for easy reposition at later stages which aids less prunning & if you dont cross banches of one plant over another a more equal pattern will develope (1 to 2 leaves a branch over a total grow period can be classed as LST)

very strain related.......but like fai says 'not rocket science' 10 times better then tape string & canes..

disadvantage.....health of every plant as regards to pests is paramount..leave room to get under screen & check the well vented area regular, mites can become well established out of genral view, precaution's to prevent are advised


Q...do you weave the branches through the mesh or train them under the screen?
A...I train them under the screen, but do what you feel comfortable with, just dont grow from seed.

Q...when you say, " just don't grow from seed," is that because of not knowing a plant's sex?
A...Yes, its going to be at least 4 weeks veg to get your screen filled and then upto 2 weeks to see the sex, thats one hell of a big plant to unravel especially if you crossed over any of the other plants on the screen

Q...do you think it would be a bad idea to scrog say 10 plants all from femmed seeds
A...You've better odds than with non-femmed seeds obviously but there's still the possibility of getting a male or a bad hermie you need to get rid of.
You can chance it by all means, especially if you're willing to put in the effort to unravel the plants from the screen if necessary - however always the best bet is to grow from clones.

Q....are there any tips regarding harvesting and drying?on my last grow which wasnt scrog it was a simple cut and hang.i suppose my grow being modular i could hang the screen also but thought id ask what other scroggers do
A...I just clip off the nice regular colas, clip off any larger fan leaves, wrap in newspaper and place in a suitable cardboard box to dry - place in gr for good venting and odour control. 'Turn' newspapers daily.
When dry, remove and clip away 'sugar leaves', clip off individual buds, dry/cure further.

Q...i have quiet a large growroom and can grow my plants up to 5'6" so would it be any advantage to scrogg instead as you all seem to have height issues and thus being the main reason for your scroggs
A...yes sir........the tecnique is good for ppl with height problems but its about pushin the limits

Q...f you clone a branch that has begun flowering successfully,isnt it true that usually from the flower an unusual amount of branches grow?therefore wouldnt this be ideal for scroggers?has anybody tried it?
A's...yes it does work and does produce very branchy plants suited to scrog. One thing to mention is that the cuttings initially take longer to start growing so it is necessary to take that into account........
...I agree, although you get an extremely bushy plant, it takes a good few weeks to turn back to vegging and you get retarded growth for a while, and theres also the fact that you have to root a flowering plant which isnt too easy. It can also be very difficult to work to any kind of schedule doing this as you cant estimate accurately the time it will take a flowering branch to root and revert to veg, whereas you can allow a week for a normal clone and know it should happen on time. If you can work around these issues though it'd be a great idea. The other thing they're good for of course is mother plants

.................................................. .................................................. ....


Miguel Velcro

On another site,I recently saw a 1000w HPS in a fridge.The bloke got the worst yield I have ever seen from a 1k lamp but his space was packed.
A case of more watts not equalling more bud.
Is 65w per sqft really the upper limit with scrog though?Is it too high?
Anyone using upwards of 65w per sqft?
Do you feel you're getting more bud because of it?

jah bergerac

I'm sure 65w/ft is not the upper limit for scrogs-my last grow had a 600 +400hps over 1m screen-if my maths are right that equals around 10square ft -so 100w/ft. The buds beneath the 600 were much bigger-it was very noticeble-so if i had used two 600s (ie 120w/ft) it would have been much better. Air or water cooled lamps would, i think, be necessary to really push a scrog.

The distance of the lamps from the canopy has also got to be quite critical hasn't it?
I find it good to use a plastic disposable screen-so at harvest it is possible to cut the screen, rather than the buds, to bits.
-on a personal note-
i've been scrogging 4 stretching plants in a 2m screen tonight-its a fucking nightmare. Everytime i do it i vow to chop loads out so i don't have an overgrown mess-this time over 150 growing shoots (clones) have been removed-and still i can't keep the buggers down-there is nowwhere for them to go-all over again. Fuck it. There has got to be a lesson there somewhere.

Unreal

good points about the illumination........i've had up to 120 psf, but feel my results are much improved useing a 600 + rail & spreader which allows 3 in between cannopy & bulb covering the area I previously ran 1400 watts over
(does anyone have a formula for a movin light? power+ area + speed maybe!! )
if you've overpacked the screen look to run up the sides with some add on net (box scrog)
__________________

FIGHT THE POWER

[bob bobbinson]

Oh man... Such a Great post. :thumbsup:

Very clear, concise, informative, no nonsense.

Respect :rasta:

[job1.5]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: .

[John Doe]

AWESOME thread dave.. My next grow is going to be a cabinet scrog hopefully and all this was a tremendous help
Thanks
DOE

[The Grim Reefer]

Beautiful.

[cmorbud]

ttalked me into it,as soon as the clones are ready,even thou the pics are great,dos anybody have more pics of this set up?i would like to see more set ups.
thanks.
exclent post.

[postmandave]

heres more pics courtesy of our resident scrog master justaseed.the last pic is minethe postman.

[postmandave]

and more and a link to justaseed scrog thread later the postman.
http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=52326&highlight=scrog

[cmorbud]

thanks dave, i like the one you have under the tv. gives me a good prospective.i like to see what its supposed to look like . i started clones from a flowering mom.another week or so i should be ready. one thing not real clear on thou,i am assuming this strech period you talk about is the time 12-12 starts till bud production stats in ernest.should i start training at beging of 12-12 or shortly before.
ounc again thanks for the pics and any more info greatly apreciated.

cmorbud