Why are they drooping?

[sandman1982]

My foaf was wondering what is causing his plants to droop. He was thinking maybe over watering so he cut the water schedule to 15 min every 1.5 hours or so and they are still drooping...

Any ideas?

[Jdzzl03]

Any specifics like setup, lights, nutes, temps, ph ect...?

It could be a number of things. You might have to wait for one of the more experienced growers to see if they can tell by just looking but the more detailed the easier it is to solve the prob.

[Garden Knowm]

yes overwatering anbd underwatering are usually the main reasons a plant droops.. also SHOCK will cause droopinig...

PIck the basket up... is it heavy as shit and saturated with water?
If so, you know it is over watering
Rockwool cubes dont need to be watered more than once a day in 78 farenheit..
You should consider mixing hydroton clay pellets in the baskets...


SOme plantrs will not recover from over watering for more than a month..
Usually this is in the mediium of soil... just lay off the water for 2 days.. those cubes will hold a lot of moisture.

STILLNESS and breathing... the miracle is right THERE!!
LOVE

[sandman1982]

GH 3 part nutes, 400 watt hps, grodan growcubes, 5.7 ph drip system.

One time a day will do it garden? 15 minutes per 24 hours?

The basket does drip when picked up a little bit (mainly when shaken) but its not REALY heavy...

[FOXBIRD]

might be a N deficiency or overage

[Zandor]

GH 3 part nutes, 400 watt hps, grodan growcubes, 5.7 ph drip system.

One time a day will do it garden? 15 minutes per 24 hours?

The basket does drip when picked up a little bit (mainly when shaken) but its not REALY heavy...

NOPE that is not enough water for them at all. Start with 15 on every 1:45 min so you have a 2 hour cycle. Work from there as your starting point. If your were using dirt then sure that water cycle is fine but in a soiless mix it dry's out to much and the plant is stressing to find water and nutrients.

[Garden Knowm]

Sandman... there may be a problem on the horizon for you..
I don't see eye to eye with Zandor on this one... LOL

Your plants actually need water about once every day or 2 days or 3 days... ,maybe even every 4 days if they are sitting in wet rockwool cubes... it all depends on how fast the rockwool cubes dry... I can not imagine rockwool ever needing watering every 15 minutes...

Now.. you are waterinjg your rockwool from the top... some people who water the cubes from the bottom can water more often..

the roots must have o2... and as great as rockwool is, if it is saturated it will smother your roots..


The basket should not be heavy and dripping all the time... please keep us posted...

: )

[Zandor]

no problem GK you can disagree with me with me all you like.....you're wong but that's ok....you still love me:D


15 min every 2 hours is not much for a starting point. Yes it will change; your plants will tell you what they can deal with. Starting to low is just as bad as starting with out enough.

[Krogith]

My foaf was wondering what is causing his plants to droop. He was thinking maybe over watering so he cut the water schedule to 15 min every 1.5 hours or so and they are still drooping...

Any ideas? I'd say that you need to watch em your secudle and the way it set up seems possble over watering Zandor's right try 15 min on 1:45 min off and when next water cycle comes on see if the rockwood is wet still if so wait more time. Your roots absorb water and grow and when the water dryes up your roots grow to reach for water ( vital for Big buds your plant will only grow roots during groth stage in bud stage grow of roots is stoped) so you need it to dry out for a little bit befor water comes on again they need oxygen.

[Garden Knowm]

LOL

[Zandor]

LOL

Told you so; you still love me:D

[latewood]

Feel The LOVE!!! Everybody is right; In their own world!!!
I like what krogith said, kinda...pay attention...check your rockwool to find out when it is drying up, then start with that cycle...Add/Decrease off times as you dial it in...

I think If you can afford a digital timer and decrease watering times, as opposed to increasing Off times...
You might solve your problem, because It is most likely that your are watering TOO long, not the fact that you don't have
long enough Off times. Did that make sense?

commercial drip farmers, growing tomato's,peppers, cucumber's...water in cycles of 45 seconds on every 5 minutes...this is using perlite as a medium in beto/hydro buckets

So it goes to say that since We know that r'wool holds moisture longer than perlite; It does not need to be watered as often as perlite...so conceivably, you could water for 45 seconds every 10 minutes, or every One hour...or 6 hrs. etc. Get my point? Goodluck, this was a fun thread to comment on. I gotta go tend to my garden.


I also agree with Knowmy:p and usually recommend adding hydroton to your r'wool cubes, to increase grower friendliness.

You heard of User friendly...Hydroton is Grower friendly...LOL.

[latewood]

I thought of another thing...

What is temp in your res...It look likes you have netpots in a tub...If this is right, then I would check that tub's temps...bet it is hot as hell. I ran into this problem in my aero tub build...Had to open a hole to release Hot air in the tubs...

Just a thought...lw

[Krogith]

I thought of another thing...

What is temp in your res...It look likes you have netpots in a tub...If this is right, then I would check that tub's temps...bet it is hot as hell. I ran into this problem in my aero tub build...Had to open a hole to release Hot air in the tubs...

Just a thought...lw from pic looks over watered but yeah your water could be to hot to nice brain storming man:smokin:

[Garden Knowm]

the freaking plant has been over watered... and it needs to dry out for at LEAST 24 hours..

and now you love me

[sandman1982]

Ok well I have been in lala land and didnt know there was still conversation going on here, but I am glad.

My foaf put the timer on for one 15 minute period per 24 hours. The plants arent looking any better however...The cubes arent soaked, no water drips from them now when I lift them out.

The leaves are rather "rough" and are getting twisted me thinks from awkward laying whilst drooping.

In my FOAF's infinite wisdom he desided to top them in there period of turmoil. (last night)

Temp inside the container is actually a little bit less than the surface. About 77-78. The holes for air hoses and what not let air circulate well Im guessing.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Krogith]

well man i hate topping shit i only tryed it for 2 years keeps your shit to low and i think it lowers yeald thats off topic tho they still drooping? last pic looks little better but you shure you letting em dry out befor re water? You relize that where you top em is like deciding about where top of plant is =/ what grow light scedule you useing btw?

[Garden Knowm]

try watering for 15 minutes every 12 hours.... you are on the right trackl.. just increase the watering by one watering a day...

where are the roots going? are they just hanging in the air? or are they in the water reservoir?

Can you show me the roots?

What is the temperature of the water in the reservoir?

You should consider using a fish tank aqaurium pump and air stone to airate the water... especially if the roots are danglinig in the reservoir..

Because you are watering so infreqyuently the water in the reservoir is not getting aggitated.. this means lower oxygen content.. this is bad...

iloveyou

you are doing a good JOB... picture one looks like it needs some water...
Yeah I said it... LOL

i need to see the roots and I need a picture 25 minutes after you water that plant in picture 1... a before and after picture.. please..

thanks

love is YOU

[sandman1982]

Ok, here we are. The plants are not looking any better for the most part. They were watered for about 2 or 3 minutes for the before after pics (last two) but there wasnt any noticable difference after 25 minutes.

There are root pics of 2 of the plants, they are all about the same for the most part.

They are looking more and more knarled and twisted....Im scared....Also Im not too sure but I think the smell is weakening in the room. The big plant looks pretty good I think, but the rest of em are just looking wacky.

[sandman1982]

heres the rest of the crew this morning (previous pics are last nightish)

[Krogith]

only thing i can see might be wrong is to much water, you letting em dry out and letting the roots reach for water befor you re water? whats temp in room and water temp?

[sandman1982]

well, the ph was checked and found to be at about 5.1-5.2 so some hydrated lime was added to get it at about 5.8-6.

Could this have been a cause?

The reason this wasnt noticed is because generally the ph was too high and would only go up. This is the first time it has been too low or gone down. Must get back on the ol ph checking tradition.

They were pretty darn dry after not watering for a full 24 hours, but the condition didnt get any better.

[latewood]

I didn't/can't believe you topped them/shocked the shit out of them...you might've signed their "Death Warrant" doing that...Oh well...NEXT!

[sandman1982]

yea my foaf is a total moron :P

[Garden Knowm]

when you need to raise the PH.. just add more water if you can... try not to put anything unnecessarily into your water

Have you checked your tap water...

when your water comes straight from the tap what is the PPM...?

something is fishy here

Your roots are a healthy WHITE.. correct?

this case will be solved..

thanks for al the picks sandman...

: )

[sandman1982]

unfortunately my foaf has no ppm meter. The roots are pretty healthy white looking. All I know is the tap water has a ph of about 8.

There was about 1 gallon of fresh water added through the pots earlier to try something different. The plants still look the same though.

There is some wierd tapering of the stem at the base of most plants though that is kinda freaky, along with some discoloring of the leaves and stems....

I wish my foaf had more experience. Also I wish that they wouldnt die and would all be perfect in the morning....Im so sad.

[sandman1982]

anyone?

[sandman1982]

the nute rezevoir was changed out, and it was noticed that there was a bunch of what looked like salt stuff all over the bottom, and the nute solution was very red. So that was replaced with fresh water, and this time we went with natural spring water in 1 gallon jugs from the sto. The nutes used were GH 3 part and we went with the mild 1 tspn per gallon of each micro, bloom and grow. Hope to god that these monkeys will pull it out of there ass and come back!

Is it recomended to try some super thrive?

[Garden Knowm]

something is seriously wrong... I would stick with very very little nutrients and make sure your ph is 6.8...

sorry I don't have the answer
: (

[sandman1982]

6.8? I dont know why but I could swear that a PH of about 5.5 was recomended to my foaf by someone somewhere...

I love you too!

[Garden Knowm]

NO.. get the PH up... distilled water from the market should have a PH of 7.0...

between 6.0 and 7.0 is a good target...

5.5 is to low..


I wish I could just come over and touch those pots...Now that the roots are dangling from the bottom.. it should alomost be mpossible to over water..

can you show me the roots NOW..?

thanks

: )

[Garden Knowm]

Those watering tubes...

keep them as far away form the stalks of your plants as possible...

: )

[latewood]

Sorry, GK, why do you think that the ph is too low?...Usually it is suggested to run a lower ph with rockwool.

I have to share something I just reread and it pertains, precisely to this query

I am starting a bunch of cuttings in 1x1r'wool so I have been refreshing my memory about the do's and don't's...If I may.

Iwas reading this, just before I came back online.
From Marijuana hydroponics...by Daniel Storm.
In the back, 1st and only appendice entitled:
Rockwool Growing Medium-by George Cervantes...
It goes on to give a history about Rockwool and how it is made, and why they started to use it...Plus the fact that it is sterile...
Then George goes on to explain that rwool can be used in recirculating and non-recirculating systems...Here is when I got surprised...In recirculating systems: Toxic build-up of salts happen because you have certain nutrients being used up and others not, as the nutrient solution recirculates...salts that the plant doesn't use builds to toxic levels.
In effect...I think this is the problem here!
(I knew about the different levels of nutrients being used, but not the fact that toxic levels would be trapped in the rockwool)

It then goes on to explain why the open ended drip does work!!! It is because 2-3 times a day you drip/drain off to waste; 10-25% extra fresh/new solution/leaching a bit, basically...enough excess fresh solution is applied to obtain a 10-25% leaching effect each day

If I were you...I would get rid of that medium, before it is too late. Get some hydroton. I am not trying to be an ASS, but I think your plants are showing signs of toxic salt build-up...The burnt patches around the leaves are a dead give away...and this means...your basically dead my friend.

On the PH query? The article then addresses the ph necessary to be successful using this product...
Don't shoot the messenger...pppplleeeaase
Rockwool does not have the buffering effect of soil...We all now that right?

The ph of rockwool is 7.8

An acidic fertilizer of about 5.5 is required (personally, I start with around 5.0 ph'd solution), to pre-soak rockwool, in order to maintain an actual ph of 6.5 or lower...Errors in ph will be magnified due to this characteristic of rockwool.

I agree totally with this assessment by George Cervantes through my own personal experience with rockwool...
I also, strongly recommend that you buy a pro ph up/down...although you very seldom need UP^...you will always use down as GK noted above.

I know we have been all over this problem, but after rereading this info tonight...I feel pretty strongly about the fact that what you have there sandman'...Is overwatered, overnuted, toxic build-up in the medium, too wet now to do much but pray...

you could perhaps carefully repot them all in a nice clean and dry soil...One without any ferts...water them with plain water lightly for a few days...

Hope I am wrong. We will see what GK thinks about my findings...lw

[Zandor]

5.2 to 6.0 is a safe Ph range for soil less grow mix. Yes there are strains that prefer a higher Ph then the normal range of Hydro Ph but not many of them.

5.5 to 5.8 is the target number you are looking for in Ph.

Did you do a proper Ph balance with your grow cubes before you started?
(Soak them in Ph adjusted water of 5.2 for 24 hours before you used them)

[sandman1982]

Negative on the pre-soaking. That info was found shortly after starting. There was a contemplation of soaking the whole pot with plant and all in some low ph solution but for some reason was decided against.

At first there was a huge problem with ph fluctuation. It would go up to 8 or higher in a matter of hours. At first the problem was combated with some lemon juice. Then after getting tired of all that some GH ph Down was bought and used with extreme joy. Now the ph doesnt fluctuate very much at all, so I am lead to believe that the rockwool has balanced out.

After changing out the resevoir of death, which was really red and salty looking, the plants are looking better already after about 20 hours or so. The ph is currently about 6.5-6.8 steadily. For the last week leading up to and during this nightmare, the ph was at about 5.0-5.5.

I do believe the actual cause of this is that my foaf put WAY to much nutes into the resevoir. He was basicaly measuring his tspn by pouring the nutes into the cap of the bottle to the brim. After finding out that a tspn is 5ml, he measured out 5ml in a syringe and squirted into said cap to find that it is actually about 60% of a cap. Sooooo long story short he was adding approx 40% extra nutes. Live and learn, get loves.

Thanks for everyones replies and what not, you guys are the bestes. i will keep this thread updated with progress on the babies. They are looking better, but still have a ways to go. The big ass plant never even skipped a beat, and is swallowing his neighbor up, also notice how fat the big ones stem is! The two real saggy lanky plants on the end arent doing as much better as the rest, but they are gonna make it I can feel it in my loins. Wish my friend luck!

Peace and love.

[sandman1982]

Now i understand your post a little better latewood. You are saying that the toxic salt will stick into the rockwool and even though he changed the solution it will still be bad in the rockwool right?

How would he be able to remove the plants from the current cubes? It seems to me that the roots are all intertwined into the cubes? Any help there would be great! My friend is poor and still has a big ass bag of the grow cubes that ran him 39 bones and would prefer to use them. His mom taught him not to waste ;) So if they could somehow be transplanted into fresh cubes that would be awesome but I dont see how it would work...

Now we have some differing ph opinions...one says 6.8 and 2 say 5.5-5.8....Will 6.8 cause harm? Cause all this basically stated when he was lowering the ph to 5.5...Also all he has is the drop style ph checker and sometimes it can be hard to guess the color accurately. He needs one of those crazy gadgets for sure. Christmas is just around the corner! Oh wait no its not.

[latewood]

Well, one thing about your friend...he was using lemon juice or vinegar or something...right? Well after you keep adding and adding vinegar to fight an ever changing ph...
that is not good That could have been part of it.

On toxic salt build-up. Yes you got it, now. Now if you remove salts from solution and wash with ph'd water and superthrive. you will wash away the toxidity. The Bvitamins and Hormone will help your plant out with the stress...Maybe?

Can any of the old cubes be removed ??? Pre-soak rwool at low 5's ph (you may have to adjust this at least once after a few hours)
Leave the intertwined cubes, but gently, very gently try and remove all the other cubes...take you pre-soaked in ph'd water and superthrive only,

fill up a spare netpot with the cubes...and shake it real hard like you would to dry out a paintbrush...alot of water should shake out...now they are ready...damp not wet...

Now, backfill your original netpots with these clean ph'd ones.

If you can't remove enough of the cubes...let me know.
As I said earlier; your only recourse might be to replant them in a soilless medium and baby them or lose them and start over.

anybody else?

One more thing...Now that you are aware you need to flush toxic salts...you must watch and try to do nothing for a couple days. When you start applying treatment
after treatment...everything gets confused...
One thing for sure...
You have found a problem and cut back on your watering...Now, there is nothing better you can do than to keep washing them with ph'd water and superthrive (for the stress), or no superthrive. (If you can't afford it.) If/when they start to yellow then you apply 1/4-1/3 nute mix and build up to full nutes again, a week later.

[Garden Knowm]

WOW.. nice books!!!!!!

Ideally you should soak your rockwool for 24 hours in PH balanced water of 5.0.. i agree wth you lakewood

I did this in the early years...

But...... Now if I soak it for even 5 minutes I am proud of myself and my results have not changed.. regardless if I presoak rockwool or not..


as for the reservoir being 5.2...

If I had to choose a PH level to stay at all the time.. it would not be 5.2.. Now if I adjusted my ph level in my reservpoir and it was 5.2 I would not trip.. cause I know within a few days it would raise to 5.6-6.0....

If I found out that my reservoir had just been sitting around at 5.2 for weeks, and my plants were hurting I would raise it to 5.8-6.2

YOU HAVE DONE THE SMARTEST THING BY CHANGING YOUR WATER IN YOUR RESERVOIR!!!

: )

[Garden Knowm]

Latewood.. I agree with your findings.. rockwool can definitley have build up... and I would never have grown using a basket full of tiny rockwool cubes.. it would be great if somehow, sand man you cold incorporate hydroton clay rocks into your grow

[latewood]

Cool GK...I didn't mean to leave them at 5.2...I meant use a 5.2 solution and that will balance the ph of the rockwoll aroung 6.0...thanks for the reply...

So GK, You really just soak in proper ph for a little while, then you are OK?

[Garden Knowm]

I rarely even soak nowadays.. 90% of the time I just put the cutting into rockwool cubes that have 8.0 tap water running on them.. really hard tap water too.. 240ppm staright from the tap.. NOT even usable for aeroponics!

one year I tried to grow the worlds largest water mellon.. snappple was having a contest.. my water melon only weighed 3 lbs... LOL
cause I was growing it aeroponicaly and it took me a little while to figure out that my water was HARD!!!!!! LOL

I only use rockwool for cloning.. and seedlings

If I am taking 10 or less clones.. I don't soak.. when i am on a mission and taking 300 to 3000 clones.. I soak....

oh yeah... sometimes when I am not ready to use clones I will purchase larger rockwool cubes.. this way the clones can continue to grow very very WELL... (4x4x2's and 4x4x4's cube)... I will soak these cubes.. because the plant I am puttng in them already has a developed root system!

[latewood]

thanks for the info...I cloned a few NL2 in rockwool just before I got on...1st time for me. I always used the rockwool for seedlings, in the old days.
Now I germ in rapid rooters...For another MUM, I started 3 C99xNL5 3 days ago...they popped in less than 36 hours!!!
I really don't klnow exactly, but it was 36 hrs. when I noticed...I never expected it, so it blew my mind...I mean it was somewhere just over 24 hours and BAM...sprout!

you know I usually clone aero or bubbler, but i had this slab of 1x1's and thought what the Hell. I think I am going to take the summer off from Hydro; for fun I am going to do a organic soil grow w/30 a month

later

[FOXBIRD]

does the temp being at 105 make any difference.
Whats the humidity in there.
Do you have any fans circulating air in there?
Im gunna go out on a limb and say its wicked hot and humid in there and I would feel the same way if i lived in that heat.
I like the water for 45 seconds every 4-6 hours bit too from late wood.
and you definately gotta airate that water
I bet they feel like there sitting in an outhouse, on a hot summer day in the bayou..

[Garden Knowm]

36 hours! WOW wood thats amazing..

sometimes the clones in rockwool can take 21 days to root.. LOL.. it is kinda silly.. but... 95% of the time they eventually root and grow into monsters...

iloveyou

[sandman1982]

The temperature is about 78-80 in the daytime and about 70 at night.

I wonder what the heck this crazy tapering of the main stem is at the bottom? The one plant that still looks like crap is mad tapered...

I have a big 9' air stone in there and another one is on the way.

These seeds sprouted in paper towels in the cupboard in about 26 hours. Just some good ol schwag bag seed. They are so small and compact. Probably just retarded.

[FOXBIRD]

You got a beaver problem,
Dude your thermometer says 110 degrees.

[sandman1982]

it just looks like it is 110, its some kind of illusion in the pics. Its really 78-80f.

[latewood]

36 hours! WOW wood thats amazing..

sometimes the clones in rockwool can take 21 days to root.. LOL.. it is kinda silly.. but... 95% of the time they eventually root and grow into monsters...

iloveyouyeah, the 1st sprout, climbed right out of the rockwool...So I ripped cube apart and gently placed that booger inside...
thanks for the 21 day heads-up...Yeah they grow into Monsters, because they are fighting to get to the outside of the rockwool...I feel.

funny...I have seen people claim they had germination over night and everybody, jumped their shit, calling them a liar...WEll, It can happen...later

[latewood]

it just looks like it is 110, its some kind of illusion in the pics. Its really 78-80f.I was gonna say???105degrees...

Just take care of them...the damage that is done is done.

all you can do now is grow them...next time, you will be straight from the start/ lw

[Garden Knowm]

I have seen over night germination also... I think I have seen everything from less than 24 hours to 15-16 days for seed germination..

I thought you were saying that you had a clone root in 36 hours...?

I cant remember seeing a clone root in 3 days... I think I have see a whole tray of 50 clones sprout roots in 5-7 days...

7-14 seems to be the norm...

: )

[CinderellaII]

Could rotting roots from overwatering be causing the PH imbalance??