2 room flipflop relay

[kushman45]

Hello all, new to this site it is full of great peeps and knowledge. I am a hardcore Do It Yourselfer. I am asking this community for some help. I am interested in building a 2 room 4 ballast 8 lamp flipflop relay system. These are super expensive from hydro shops like $400 just for the one I would like to build. I know it works with relays But they need to be strong enough to flip 1000 watt HPS systems. someone must have one and could possibly post pics then we could do a how to on building one. Please help it would be greatly appreciated..........I am posting a Picture of one but it does not show what is inside................:D

[Psycho4Bud]

You should be able to get all the supplies at an electrical shop like Radio Shack for the electronics....you may have to build the box yourself though. Most relays are rated in Amps so use the formula watts=volts x amps. They should be able to show you how to wire also...just tell them it's a flip flop circuit with a good story.

Good luck and have a good one!:thumbsup:

[kushman45]

Thanks for your help, yes I am researching this. I dont think to many people are using flipflop systems.......The more I find out I will post more info in the meantime if anyone has info to offer please do so..............:stoned:

[turtle420]

Never heard of it.

Any and all info on "flip-flops" would be greatly appreciated. :)

[Psycho4Bud]

A flip-flop basically transfers the signal in another direction after a certain amount of time....or by choice. Let's say you have two separate rooms, both at 12/12. From midnight to noon one room would recieve an electrical signal and from noon to midnight the other would recieve it. Hope this helps!


Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[kushman45]

Exactly what psycho described it saves on equipment you can have 2 flower rooms running with 1 ballast the flipflop flips the HPS Bulbs over using relay or contactors with a timer. You need a special type relay that can handle at least the inrush or inductive load at startup for 1000 watt HPS lamps. I know I could build this but i dont know what type of relay the retailers use. And I dont want to spend 400 dollars when this could be built for 150 to 200.................:D

[Zandor]

Exactly what psycho described it saves on equipment you can have 2 flower rooms running with 1 ballast the flipflop flips the HPS Bulbs over using relay or contactors with a timer. You need a special type relay that can handle at least the inrush or inductive load at startup for 1000 watt HPS lamps. I know I could build this but i dont know what type of relay the retailers use. And I dont want to spend 400 dollars when this could be built for 150 to 200.................:D

What do you do about the igniters and capacitors? They discharged to light the first bulb so how are you going to recharge them to light the second bulb? That is what the 5 min between lighting is for to cycle the charge to ignite the bulb.

[kushman45]

Hello Zandor, From what I know so far is the ignitor and cap are not affected in any way power is continuous. And when it flips you are fliping to a cold bulb again this is why it would be nice to see one of these or get some info from someone who knows more.................:)

[Pothed]

so, is that a John Kerry Relay? lmfao!!

[louisville97]

Greetings Kushman,

I'm not educated very much on hydro systems, but I would like to add my two cents worth. What would be wrong with setting each system up on a large capacity timer, each set for the opposite time period? One set for 9am to 9pm and the other starts at 9pm to 9am. Maybe even leave an extra 15 minute buffer zone with the veg timer so it doesnt kick in both at the same time and blow a breaker. Each light cycle would be maintained and I can't see it costing more than $50. Like I said, I am not "up" on hydro systems, but if I was trying to save a buck or two, and my Canadian Government ensures that I do, this would be worth a try for me at least.

[Zandor]

Hello Zandor, From what I know so far is the ignitor and cap are not affected in any way power is continuous. And when it flips you are fliping to a cold bulb again this is why it would be nice to see one of these or get some info from someone who knows more.................:)

But to ignite the bulbs you need a cap and igniter for each circuit. Thatâ??s why when the power fails you need to give them the 5 min cooling off period. It's more for the cap and igniter to discharge and then you can recharge them again to ignite the bulb.

That's how they work anyway.

[kushman45]

Hello Zandor I am not sure what you mean. with these flips you are changing over to a cold bulb so no need for a cool down period. These units are sold at hydro retailers 1 ballast can run 2 rooms all they do is switch the hot side of the circuit between the bulbs. Again I was hopeing someone might have one and be able to share pictures or maybe someone has built there own. From what I know there is no time delay between the switching but I dont really know I have heard these unit use DPDT Relay's I just dont know what kind. Anyways thanks for all that are interested and your replys I have searched and searched and cant find a how to on these things. I asked someone on another site who was selling them if they would share what type of relay and the person got all pissed and said he could not share that info because it hurts retailers. Well I know these relays cant be that expensive and I told the person that they are way over priced just as many grow supplies are. Oh well guess we will never know I would love to buy one open it up find out what makes it tick and return it.........:)

[fredfarts]

I just bought a DPDT relay off ebay for 2.50! I hooked it up and it works! Very simple actually. The Wire from the ballast goes to the relay then there are 2 more wires going to each bulb the I hooked up a timer and when it trips the relay flips one light goes off the other starts up. No problems! :thumbsup: :dance: :dance:

[kushman45]

cool man glad it is working for you I have not tried this yet. What size light are you flipping 1000, 600, or 400. and do you know the specs on the Relay Like how many amps 20, 30, 40, 50 etc......Be careful some cheap relays might not withstand the inductive load and weld contacts..........:D

[h3o]

Hello Zandor I am not sure what you mean. with these flips you are changing over to a cold bulb so no need for a cool down period. These units are sold at hydro retailers 1 ballast can run 2 rooms all they do is switch the hot side of the circuit between the bulbs. Again I was hopeing someone might have one and be able to share pictures or maybe someone has built there own. From what I know there is no time delay between the switching but I dont really know I have heard these unit use DPDT Relay's I just dont know what kind. Anyways thanks for all that are interested and your replys I have searched and searched and cant find a how to on these things. I asked someone on another site who was selling them if they would share what type of relay and the person got all pissed and said he could not share that info because it hurts retailers. Well I know these relays cant be that expensive and I told the person that they are way over priced just as many grow supplies are. Oh well guess we will never know I would love to buy one open it up find out what makes it tick and return it.........:)


What Zandor was trying to say is that, the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb. But about a flipflop relay all it is is a couple of relays DPDT relays hooked together so that you can have one in and two outs with the same voltage and almost same amperage. Most electricians could build this in no time, I can write you up a schematic if you tell me what exactly you want.

[fredfarts]

I am flipping 1000 watters. The relay is rated for 20 amps and 277 volts. I checked the starting amps and they were around 6 the drifted back to 5. The voltage starts low and climbs to 260 then hangs there I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I? In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?

[kushman45]

What Zandor was trying to say is that, the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb. But about a flipflop relay all it is is a couple of relays DPDT relays hooked together so that you can have one in and two outs with the same voltage and almost same amperage. Most electricians could build this in no time, I can write you up a schematic if you tell me what exactly you want.
Schematic would be cool if you are in the know how of this I would like to be able to flip at least 2 1000 watt lamps..............:D

[h3o]

I am flipping 1000 watters. The relay is rated for 20 amps and 277 volts. I checked the starting amps and they were around 6 the drifted back to 5. The voltage starts low and climbs to 260 then hangs there I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I? In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?


well 277 @ 20 amps would be ample for a 5540watt light, But also how is your relay setup? where is your line coming in from? also 18/2 is very small for a something that could run 20 amps. Id at least go with a 14/2 but better yet a 12/2 or if you can run a independent ground 12/3. since you only have a 18/2 im assuming you are only running a 110/120vac line, depending on how the relay is it might not be enough to have the coils strong enough to get the contacts to close.

[h3o]

Schematic would be cool if you are in the know how of this I would like to be able to flip at least 2 1000 watt lamps..............:D

by flip do you mean, both on at the same time, or when one goes off the other goes on?

[kushman45]

when one goes off the other goes on?

Exactly flipflop using only one ballast..............:)

[kushman45]

Check this picture out..............

[kushman45]

Another Picture..............

[h3o]

when one goes off the other goes on?

Exactly flipflop using only one ballast..............:)

okay, but you do understand that you will need a seperate igniter and capacitor for each bulb right? Well i would just use a 2 DPDT relay, hook up a single switch or timer on the coils, then hook the ballast the 120v of the ballast to one relay pole and the negative on the other relay, then run your lines out the relays like you'd normally do from the ballast to cap to igniter to bulb, then when the timer is on it will make the coils contact having voltage sent to one bulb and when it goes off it will open the coils sending the voltage to the other bulb. I hope you understand cause right now my MSvisio isnt working so i cant draw up a schematic

[u.g.u]

here is a 4 light flip that uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m I had this diagram made up for someone else a while back hope it helps. I had to down size it alot if anyone wants a better copy pm me and I will get it to you in a bigger size

[kushman45]

okay, but you do understand that you will need a seperate igniter and capacitor for each bulb right? Well i would just use a 2 DPDT relay, hook up a single switch or timer on the coils, then hook the ballast the 120v of the ballast to one relay pole and the negative on the other relay, then run your lines out the relays like you'd normally do from the ballast to cap to igniter to bulb, then when the timer is on it will make the coils contact having voltage sent to one bulb and when it goes off it will open the coils sending the voltage to the other bulb. I hope you understand cause right now my MSvisio isnt working so i cant draw up a schematic
Dude I dont think you understand people are using these without the extra igniter or capacitor. when the ballast gets flipped the capacitor is already charged and no bulb gets blown or burnt. From what I have found they just use a DPDT relay to switch the hot side of the circuit. Hey I am no expert on this subject but you are making it more complicated then it is. Unless you are an electrician it is not rocket science. Please post your schematic if you have one. I understand what you are thinking but it is not as you think. Again you do not need an extra ignitor or cap.................goodluck.........:smokin:

[kushman45]

here is a 4 light flip that uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m I had this diagram made up for someone else a while back hope it helps. I had to down size it alot if anyone wants a better copy pm me and I will get it to you in a bigger size
UGU wow thanks for your input but man that schematic looks like a bunch of squiggly lines do you have a more clear picture. also how long have you been using yours have you had any issues with the relay welding or locking up........

[kushman45]

OK read this thread good info hope the link is ok to post for learning purpose........http://www.gardenscure.com/420/showthread.php?t=76436 ......

[surreyB.C.]

hey man i have a flip flop box it for 7 x 1000w lights times 2 so it will run 14 lights altogether get back to me and i will try to help you the best i can. its a relatively simple concept but yes they do cost an arm and a leg i think i payed 550 for mine just for the flip flop board then add 7 ballasts and 14 bulbs and shields and your starting to really get up there in price i am a hardcore do it yourselfer as well and i would be more than happy to help you out with any info i can provide.dont listen to ppl who have never had or used one the only thing they are gonna help is burning your house down faster lol . if you need to get a hold of me you can email me at [email protected]

[h3o]

Dude I dont think you understand people are using these without the extra igniter or capacitor. when the ballast gets flipped the capacitor is already charged and no bulb gets blown or burnt. From what I have found they just use a DPDT relay to switch the hot side of the circuit. Hey I am no expert on this subject but you are making it more complicated then it is. Unless you are an electrician it is not rocket science. Please post your schematic if you have one. I understand what you are thinking but it is not as you think. Again you do not need an extra ignitor or cap.................goodluck.........:smokin:


okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly. But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck. And yes I am a Journeyman housing electrician and also a electronic technician, so I do have both aspects on my side.

[kushman45]

okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly. But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck. And yes I am a Journeyman housing electrician and also a electronic technician, so I do have both aspects on my side.
h3o hey I appreciate you are trying to help but Im tellin ya, you are not "Hot Starting" because you are switching to a cold bulb I hope you understand. The ones made by retailers do not have extra ballast caps or ignitors it works with just relays that switch the hot side between bulbs. The ballast stays warm and charged and just fires the cold bulb when it flips................................Thanks to everyone who is interested if you are afraid of electricity this is not for you.............goodluck........

[kushman45]

hey man i have a flip flop box it for 7 x 1000w lights times 2 so it will run 14 lights altogether get back to me and i will try to help you the best i can. its a relatively simple concept but yes they do cost an arm and a leg i think i payed 550 for mine just for the flip flop board then add 7 ballasts and 14 bulbs and shields and your starting to really get up there in price i am a hardcore do it yourselfer as well and i would be more than happy to help you out with any info i can provide.dont listen to ppl who have never had or used one the only thing they are gonna help is burning your house down faster lol . if you need to get a hold of me you can email me at [email protected]
Hey if there is any way you can open it up and either take pictures of the system and post them here that would be a big help. Or if you could read the relays for a name Like Omron or Square D. Also how long have you been using yours..........

[kushman45]

h3o also I dont think hydro retailers would sell a product that is going to shorten bulb life and cause lumen loss. I was an electrical apprentice for a few years myself. I dont have a very much experience with the way HID's work. I have Hung high bay and low bay Hids in warehouse's before. And they were tirggered by lighting contactors. I always thought to shorten a bulbs life it would have to have the incorrect voltage wired to it. Any way I understand what you are saying about, by the cap charging up to help ignite the HID bulb............Well hopefully we can work together to find out the correct way to build these. I know a lot of canadians use these............

[h3o]

Hey like I said go ahead but i got my electronic technician certificate from the military and hid bulbs is what we used for perimeter security so i did deal with both HPS and MV system everytime we had to setup a new perimeter for the systems i dealt with. But goodluck too you.

[kushman45]

Hey like I said go ahead but i got my electronic technician certificate from the military and hid bulbs is what we used for perimeter security so i did deal with both HPS and MV system everytime we had to setup a new perimeter for the systems i dealt with. But goodluck too you.
well you are correct checked with some one and you could possibly harm your bulbs and ballast if you dont let the ballast cool down so you would need 2 timers and have the ballast shut off first say at 12:00 then at 12:05 have your second timer flip the relay to the other bulb/room. then at 12:10 have your ballast kick back on and would work good.........

[u.g.u]

It loooks wierd but the only place were the wires connect is in the yellow squares indicating a wire nut and the 8 wires to the relay if the wires look like the cross any were else is due to limited space in the drawing also the blown up pic I have has all the directions on it.

[stonewall jackson]

I feel like the freaking flip flop police, traveling from board to board to correct peoples misinformation regarding the workings and standards for such a simple device.




I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I?

Considering the open circuit voltage for all 1000 watt HID lamps is in the 400-500 Volts RMS yes, you do need a heavier relay.


In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?

If you will look closely at your lamps cord, it should say somewhere on it what type of cord it is. The industry standard is either SO or STO cord. This is a reference to the cord insulation standards. SO and STO cords are rated for 600 volts and 18 gauge has a max ampacity of 10 amps. The NEC code standard most everyone uses as a universal ampacity reference for wiring is specific to THHN and should not be used as a one size fits all standard.

So you should not continue using the relay you have!!It does not meet the requirements for a flip flop relay for any 1000 watt HID lamp.



the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb.

You don't seem to have much of an understanding of the operation of an HID lamp. Here (http://www.ec-central.org/magazine/PDF/art_6_sept_oct_99.pdf) is a good link to an article detailing the use of capacitors in HID circuits.
The ignitor is a capacitor that supplies a high voltage pulse for a very short duration(one microsecond), it will pulse continuously until the arc is established, then because electricity follows the path of least resistance the current will no loger be traveling through the ignitor (high resistance) but rather through the arc tube(negative resistance charachteristic). It has to discharge in order to light the arc initially, so your statment about it needing to be discharged or else possibly "pop" a bulb is nonesense.
The other capactior in an HID lamp circuit, other than the ignitor, is in the circuit for power factor correction and in certain ballast circuits to help limit the current to the lamp. It is chargeing and dischargeing 60 times a second each in 60 herts alternating current. It does not need time to cool off or discharge its stored voltage (not current, you can't store current!)


okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly.

Your understanding and use of the term "hot start" is completley wrong. As kushman tried to explain. the proper term is "Hot Restrike" and refers to trying to relight the arc in a HOT hid lamp. When ever the lamp is hot, more precisely when ever the arc tube is hot, the gas pressures inside it are higher. Because of the higher pressure, the voltage needed to get the arc to jump the gap between the electrodes is higher. Ballasts are only capable of supplying a very narrow range of voltage to the lamp, therefore you have to let the lamp cool enough to get the pressure down enough so the voltage needed is within the range supplied by the ballast. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with capacitor charge time.

Yes Hot Restrikes are detrimental to the bulb, but flip flops do not produce a hot restrike scenerio. So your completley off target with your statments.



uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m

Your relay is not rated for the voltage neccesary for 1000 watt HID flip flops. yours is rated for 300 volts and 15 amps resistive, the 1000 watt will have 400-500 volts rms open circuit voltage and the load is induvtive not resistive. i highly recomend discontinueing its use and acquireing a properly sized relay.





Ballasts (transformer, capacitor and when needed ignitor) do not need a cool down time before being switched on. Bulbs do need a cool down time before being switched on.


toke it easy :smokin:

[kushman45]

Thanks Stonewall for showing up over here and layin down the law on this flipflop system.................:thumbsup:

[kushman45]

Hey Stonewall ya got any pictures of one you have built would be awsome to see............

[u.g.u]

stonewall jackson
I have never had a problem with it mine is a store bought unit I opened it after purchase to see how it worked incase I needed to build another. I used it on 4 1000 watts 2 on 2 off for nearly 2 years. when I saw that it was for only 10 amps I kinda wondered I am sure for a few more $ you could get I higher amperage

[stonewall jackson]

I don't have a camera right now, but mine looks just like the one in the gardenscure thread. I switch both leads to the bulb, so there is no current present in the bulb that is not lit. So one relay per ballast.

toke it easy. :smokin:

[stonewall jackson]

Keep your eye on those contacts man, that relay is way under built for 1000 watt HID lamp circuits.

Does your store bought unit have any UL or CSA approval stickers on it? A make and model? is it the hydroyeild one? Can I see a picture of it?

thanks man. :smokin:

[h3o]

Hey stonewall like i said ive been dealing with hids for well over 10 years now, and most of the information youve given these people are false you do not base relays on voltage you base it on amperage, the voltage is a given when buying the relays.

and about the hot start this is standard military term, look at a hid bulb when it starts up does it just "turn on" it charges up doesnt it? because the gases in there need time to build pressure if not it has a "hot start" the capacitor has a rise and fall time which acts like a warm up for the bulb, but hey like i said i am not familiar with these flipflop relays that are built for hid lighting maybe they do have a timed relay in there for all i know. But also good luck if you wanna keep giving these people that kind of information, i will not be held responsible for someone coming on the board saying they have to change bulbs every month.

[stonewall jackson]

, and most of the information youve given these people are false

Prove it! I challenge you.


you do not base relays on voltage you base it on amperage, the voltage is a given when buying the relays.

Voltage is just as important as amperage when chooseing a relay for any circuit. Not only coil voltage but also as I keep trying to point out max contact or switching voltage. you Don't seem to understand that the flip flop relay contacts will be on the secondary side of the transformer in the ballast circuit. This voltage is in the range of 400-500 volts RMS for all 1000 watt HIDs (MV, MH, HPS). Please do consider this when making a relay purchase!


and about the hot start this is standard military term, look at a hid bulb when it starts up does it just "turn on" it charges up doesnt it?

NO, it does not charge up. You show how much you know by the words you use. The warm up time is the time it takes the arc to reach full power, it takes time for the reaction to take place that produces the plasma that provides the light. It has nothing to do with a cappacitor chargeing.


because the gases in there need time to build pressure
No the gases don't need time to build pressure, they do have higher press. at higher temps, but it doesn't need time to do this, if the temp rises gradually or suddenly, the pressure will still be in direct relation to the temp. there is no lag time between temperature changes and pressure changes. the warm up time is just that time for the arc to reach full temperature and power(current).


if not it has a "hot start" the capacitor has a rise and fall time which acts like a warm up for the bulb,

Rise and fall time is not relative to our discussion, so I won't go into it. But suffice it to say that it is typically measured in nanoseconds so your use of it is laughable.



but hey like i said i am not familiar with these flipflop relays that are built for hid lighting This I would agree with you on.


i will not be held responsible for someone coming on the board saying they have to change bulbs every month.

However I will do my best to hold you responsible for the advice you do give.

toke it easy. :smokin:


The open circuit output voltage of the ballast, not including any starting pulses, needs to be well above the normal voltage across a warmed-up lamp for stable operation - at least 1.4 times as high for even somewhat reliable operation and preferably at least 1.6 times the normal arc voltage. (http://members.misty.com/don/hidexp.html)

[kushman45]

Stonewall thanks again for all your help I truly appreciate it. h3o please if you do not want to help in building this please do not reply any more. Many people use these and I dont here of any reports of having to replace bulbs every month if this was the case people would have claimed this long ago and flipflops would not be used. But many people use these and no reports of bulb failures. And they would not sell them. Now U.G.U's statement scares me, I have heard that retailers sell cheap made flipflops with cheap relay's. I will not buy one from a retailer just because of that fact......Anyway no sense arguing over this either you want to build your own or you dont if not go buy one with cheap relays for 500 bucks...............good luck to all I have learned a great deal and I think I am set on what to do.................

[h3o]

Prove it! I challenge you.



Voltage is just as important as amperage when chooseing a relay for any circuit. Not only coil voltage but also as I keep trying to point out max contact or switching voltage. you Don't seem to understand that the flip flop relay contacts will be on the secondary side of the transformer in the ballast circuit. This voltage is in the range of 400-500 volts RMS for all 1000 watt HIDs (MV, MH, HPS). Please do consider this when making a relay purchase!



NO, it does not charge up. You show how much you know by the words you use. The warm up time is the time it takes the arc to reach full power, it takes time for the reaction to take place that produces the plasma that provides the light. It has nothing to do with a cappacitor chargeing.


No the gases don't need time to build pressure, they do have higher press. at higher temps, but it doesn't need time to do this, if the temp rises gradually or suddenly, the pressure will still be in direct relation to the temp. there is no lag time between temperature changes and pressure changes. the warm up time is just that time for the arc to reach full temperature and power(current).



Rise and fall time is not relative to our discussion, so I won't go into it. But suffice it to say that it is typically measured in nanoseconds so your use of it is laughable.


This I would agree with you on.



However I will do my best to hold you responsible for the advice you do give.

toke it easy. :smokin:


The open circuit output voltage of the ballast, not including any starting pulses, needs to be well above the normal voltage across a warmed-up lamp for stable operation - at least 1.4 times as high for even somewhat reliable operation and preferably at least 1.6 times the normal arc voltage. (http://members.misty.com/don/hidexp.html)


just for shits and giggles i went and tried to find some research on the internet to help prove my facts, go to www.howstuffworks.com (how redundant huh) and kushman you asked for someone to help you build one of your own right? I tried to help you, you even asked someone else and found that the information i gave you was true.
But hey im outta this one already good luck too all of you.

[kushman45]

dude I appreciate your general interest h3o but you have basically told me not to build one that I would burn bulbs or lose lumens. I am done with this I just like to try and save money on things by doing it on my own if I can. All I know is from my research flipflop system exist that work well. Whether they are built to electrical safety code I have no idea. I like the idea of saving money on extra ballast to run 2 flower rooms. And yes I did state that I some what backed your statements but I was mislead also from someone else and stonewall validated correct info............Hey man I am a peacful person I dont want to fight with nobody over this just want to build my own because they are to expensive from the hydro stores.............:stoned:

[Zandor]

There is a simple test you can play with.

You use one of the transformers that have plug in cords. Now you have 2 cords and 2 bulbs. Plug in one set (plug & bulb) let it get hot about 10 min should do. Now with the transformer still on you unplug the cord and quickly plug in the second set of plug & bulb. Now you have just done a manual flip switch watch the second bulb and see what happens.

That will settle the debate of if it will work or not.


I'm not going to say.

[latewood]

If I may, I have a book. 5 easy gardens by Jorge C.
I will get the book out find this how-to...at least I am pretty sure, they included a tutorial...
Anyway; All you do place a timer relay inline between the 2 HID lamps and the ballast.

After 12 hours, the timer relay switches the power from the ballast to the lamp in the other room. The ballast never shuts off...All you have to do is match the timer relay to the ballast output to the lamp.

so when the realy timer switches to the cold lamp...It is as if the system just came on.

I will look for the info...lw

[h3o]

dude I appreciate your general interest h3o but you have basically told me not to build one that I would burn bulbs or lose lumens. I am done with this I just like to try and save money on things by doing it on my own if I can. All I know is from my research flipflop system exist that work well. Whether they are built to electrical safety code I have no idea. I like the idea of saving money on extra ballast to run 2 flower rooms. And yes I did state that I some what backed your statements but I was mislead also from someone else and stonewall validated correct info............Hey man I am a peacful person I dont want to fight with nobody over this just want to build my own because they are to expensive from the hydro stores.............:stoned:

im sorry but where in this whole thing did i tell you "not" to build one i was going to even draw you up a schematic for it using one ballast with 2 caps and 2 ignitors. but o well this thread pretty much seems like it ended so aloha

[latewood]

Sorry, all they showed was a schematic showing what I describe above. I have wanted to build one of these aver since the 1st of the year. I'll check around for relays.

they showed a cost of 200 bucks for 1 relay to turn on/off 2 1000w MH and a timer to switch the relay for 30 bucks...

So it sounds like the prices you guys researched or spent already is right on track...Now let me see if I can find the component from a less expensive source.

lw

[latewood]

Sorry, all they showed was a schematic showing what I describe above. I have wanted to build one of these ever since the 1st of the year. I'll check around for relays.

they showed a cost of 200 bucks for 1 relay to turn on/off 2 1000w MH and a timer to switch the relay for 30 bucks...

So it sounds like the prices you guys researched or spent already is right on track...Now let me see if I can find the components from a less expensive source.

lw

[kushman45]

Latewood and Zandor thanks for your interest and positive thoughts. h3o here are your own words........."But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck".

[latewood]

OK, let's stop the negativity right here, please. This appears to be a commonly done application, and for a very long time. It is nothing new.

[h3o]

Latewood and Zandor thanks for your interest and positive thoughts. h3o here are your own words........."But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck".

uh huh you quoted that when i said i wouldnt do it if you were going to use one ignitor and one cap, but whatever cause im being so "negative" :rolleyes:

[latewood]

actually I was referring to kushman, but h3o Now you are being negative and I don't appreciate it..Why can't you children quit sniping at each other long enough to see the big picture, and that is you are lucky to have such a great place to come and learn. h3o...basically 1/2 you stated was dead wrong..there I said it. I read it and let it go, but now...whatever woody,

p.s. let it go. I'm tired of wasting time that could be put to better use helping someone who appreciates the help. This is the growing forums...If you insist on feeding into a fight, do it in the lounge, they will love you there. pissed off lw

I am serious.

[stonewall jackson]

i know I have been hard on h3o, but I think it would be great if he could draw up a schematic for a flip flop using seperate capacitor and ignitor for each bulb. Especially helpful if he could do it for the 1000 watt HPS lamp with a Constant Wattage Autotransformer.:thumbsup:


Heck if you want, consider it a challenge.:stoned:

[kushman45]

Sorry Latewood.........No more arguing from me............ I think I am going to try the omron DPDT heavy duty relay. Also potter and brumfield make some pretty heavy duty one's also.............

[latewood]

i know I have been hard on h3o, but I think it would be great if he could draw up a schematic for a flip flop using seperate capacitor and ignitor for each bulb. Especially helpful if he could do it for the 1000 watt HPS lamp with a Constant Wattage Autotransformer.:thumbsup:

Heck if you want, consider it a challenge.:stoned:



I would love to see it too!:D Then we could all learn something, peace. :thumbsup: :dance: It is better to prove one's self than to debate about who is right and wrong. lw

[stonewall jackson]

Here is the schematic for a CWA HPS ballast, all you have to do is show me where the relay contacts will be in this circuit :confused:

[latewood]

just don't call me Toyota...



It's a bit messy, i didn't want to get sued over copyright infringement; Otherwise I would've just scanned the book

Now of course I don't condone commercial sales...The guys that used this system made $300,000 a year, and quit their day jobs....pity. lol:smokin:

[h3o]

Hey latewood you got an email? ill send you over the schematic.

[stonewall jackson]

Latewood, that is the general idea of a flip flop relay, but unfortunatley your diagram doesn't show where the relay contacts are in relation to the bulb, capacitor, ignitor and transformer.

h30, why not post it right here? You seem pretty confident.:smokin:

[latewood]

Latewood, that is the general idea of a flip flop relay, but unfortunatley your diagram doesn't show where the relay contacts are in relation to the bulb, capacitor, ignitor and transformer.

h30, why not post it right here? You seem pretty confident.:smokin:OK, sorry...common sense dictates that to leave the ballast on at all times, you would have to put the relay inline between the capacitor and the mogul base...i.e. take your light chord and cut it in two, leaving a pigtail off/at the capacitor that can be spliced with the relay that will allow current up the chord to the lamp.

[latewood]

Hey latewood you got an email? ill send you over the [email protected]

[Zandor]

CC me on that schematic too please I would like to review it as well. Thanks

[kushman45]

Top Secret Schematic, Man you guys are making this more complicated then it has to be. You do not need an extra ignitor and capacitor for this to work. If you are going to go through all that trouble then you might as well just buy the extra ballast the transformer cannot be that much more. I know for fact the ones that retailers sell do not have extra ignitors and capacitors but if you guys want to experiment with it more pwer to ya good luck............:confused:

[latewood]

I already said that

[latewood]

Top Secret Schematic, Man you guys are making this more complicated then it has to be. You do not need an extra ignitor and capacitor for this to work. If you are going to go through all that trouble then you might as well just buy the extra ballast the transformer cannot be that much more. I know for fact the ones that retailers sell do not have extra ignitors and capacitors but if you guys want to experiment with it more pwer to ya good luck............:confused:what posts are you reading? I have stated over and over...electrical supply>input/chord>ballast/ignitor/capacitor>output/chord>timer that switches relay>(1) input line to relay (2) output lines>(2) lamp chords>(2) seperate mogul bases>(2)lamps. I cannot make it any simpler than that.

[kushman45]

OK sorry man I thought you guys were wanting to add more stuff to the circuit. I already have a schematic showing that cool well I will try and post pics of mine when I get it built. I will be ordering some OMRON relays for mine.........:stoned:

[stonewall jackson]

LW, i too thought you were offering that schematic as the one with seperate ignitor and capacitor. I thought you aere offering it up as a response to my challenge.

I hope h3o gets his schematic to you guys so you can review it and then I do wish that you would share it with the rest of us. I am sure it is a rather complicated circuit, useing multiple relays all timed and tuned in unison.

I won't hold my breath though.:stoned:

[latewood]

he already sent , but I couldnt' get it off the email

[stonewall jackson]

bummer:smokin:

[DB2004]

I have a degree in electrical engineering and also work as a commerical electrician. I've built dozens of flip-flops and never had a problem. The most important component is the DPDT relay. If you want to know which relay to use, send me an email to [email protected] and I'll send you a pic. One thing not to do is show off by flipping back and forth between the two lights. I've seen people do this and it's dangerous......

Best Regards

DB2004

[kushman45]

DB2004 hey you got mail. I would like to please see a picture I know you know your stuff have seen your work on other sites...............:D

[stonewall jackson]

Why not just post it here? Be much more beneficial, if you would just post the pic and the relay make and model, and your specifications right here.:smokin:

[kushman45]

Why not just post it here? Be much more beneficial, if you would just post the pic and the relay make and model, and your specifications right here.:smokin:
I agree please post the pic here.............

[latewood]

I have a degree in electrical engineering and also work as a commerical electrician. I've built dozens of flip-flops and never had a problem. The most important component is the DPDT relay. If you want to know which relay to use, send me an email to [email protected] and I'll send you a pic. One thing not to do is show off by flipping back and forth between the two lights. I've seen people do this and it's dangerous......

Best Regards

DB2004this would be nice, but why can't you just show it here? I would love to see it. Not thrilled at exposing myself anymore by email. If you do...Make sure to size it around 2mb

Also, I mispoke myself earlier Stony...You do not need 2 caps and ignitors...relay just switches out to different lamp...nothing get's turned on/off ballast runs 24/7

[DB2004]

Here are a few pix of the higher end flips I build. I also build 4, 6, 8, and 10 ballast flips. There are several other electrical devices I build like custom timerboards and digital thermal shutdown. With my thermal shutdowns, the power does not come back on after 15 minutes like other ones. The power can only be restored with a manual reset button. I will have a website set up soon that will show all the items I build and all the options available. The relays I use are from NTE and the part # is R04-11A30-120. If you're near a Torbram store, you can pick them up for less than $40.00

Best Regards

DB2004

PS. If you want, I can be emailed at [email protected]

[stonewall jackson]

Looks very profesional DB2004, and your relays even meet my recomendations:thumbsup: .

It is good to know that there are qualified people building them for resale. I was beginning to wonder.


Much respect. :smokin:

[kushman45]

Cool very professional these even look better than the hydro retailer ones damn you know your stuff thanks for posting picks.............:D

[kushman45]

Also please keep us updated on your website what is going to be called.

[latewood]

very nice...when you get up...I want to link with you at my new self substantial site/forums; Currently under construction.I hope I can speak for everyone, saying thanks for the great piks...It looks like you just wire that relay inline and have day/night receptacles; right?...I just realized my timers are flipflop/continuous...I have day/night/continuous receptacles.

[Bachelorpads]

Sorry to just jump in here, but i am fairly certain the reason you dont need to have a 2nd cap and ignitor is because they will automatically kick in when the relay is thrown to light the next bulb. In effect, the lamp knows when they need to be used. It is the same reason that when the power drops and comes back on, the light will relight without doing anything special.

The only reason there is a cool down period is for the bulb anyway. A properly run ballast that is cooled is more then capable of running 24/7.

I know we don't like to point to other pages, but here is a pretty darn good explanation

http://www.maximumyield.com/viewart.php?article=143

[latewood]

thanks BP, but I have mentioned that probably 3 times in this thread...1ballast,1cap,1ign..2lamps.

thanks for the link

[latewood]

thanks BP, but I have mentioned that probably 3 times in this thread...1ballast,1cap,1ign..2lamps.

thanks for the link

[4leafroller]

high guys, whats the possibility of someone making an HPS sequencer? i want one ballast to flip through four bulbs twice during a 24 period. like "A" for 3, switch to B for 3, then switch to C for 3, fianally D for 3 then start over again at A. i know its possible but cant seem to figure out how i will go about it.

thanks

[stonewall jackson]

here is a quick schematic for you 4leafroller.


whoops thats a crappy copy, let me see if I can do better.

[latewood]

that's cool...

[stonewall jackson]

well, I missed the part about it repeating the sequence when it got to the end. But with some adjustment to the timers it should work.

Are you wanting it to repeat the sequence with the same four bulbs? or go to another room and 4 more bulbs?

I don't quite underestand where you are coming from, from a cultivation standpoint.

[4leafroller]

well, I missed the part about it repeating the sequence when it got to the end. But with some adjustment to the timers it should work.

Are you wanting it to repeat the sequence with the same four bulbs? or go to another room and 4 more bulbs?

I don't quite underestand where you are coming from, from a cultivation standpoint.

Stonewall let me start by thankin you for the speedy response! ok this is my plan. i would like to have a room, large enough for 4 1 ks like 10x10 and have four 1k bulbs setup like normal for optimal coverage. ok then i want to have one single ballast run each of the four lamps one at a time for 3 hrs each. during veg each lamp site will have 6hrs direct light and 6hrs indirect light. being four bulbs that would total 24hrs but in two cycles of 3hrs each. once i flip to 12/12 i want the lamps to continue to light 3hrs each but only once durin a 24hr instead of twice.


here is a diagram i drew for the concept but DO NOT know if this is anywhere near correct so DO NOT try this at home yet!

im probably making this harder by the way i explain it but basically i would like a relay/timer setup that would cycle 2-4 or more lamps. its a double flip flip or flip floppin flippity flop, for all i care but i want some wawy to sequence hps lamps

[4leafroller]

also you could do another room if you only do flower in each. i veg and flower same room so i would need a different setup or need to adjust timers differently or something. if you made it do two separate rooms then you would need a system that would sequence the ballast though four bulbs 3hrs each then it would flip to room 2 and sequence though the other four bulbs for 3hrs each before returning to room 1.


my theory is plants can only absorb light for so long out of the 12hr day so indirect is better than wasting lumens above plants that have had enough. if the bulbs light for 3hrs eace i'd say thats long enough and besides

[stonewall jackson]

Interesting idea, looks like you got it figured out. I would however urge you to use double pole double throw relays instead of single pole double throw so that you are switching both leads. That way there is no current present in the lamps that are off.

To repeat the sequence the timers just need to be programed to have two on cycles each. Timer 1 would be on for the first 6 hours, off six hours, on six hours, off six hours. For example: on from 12 am to 6 am, off 6am to 12 pm, on 12 pm to 6 pm, off 6 pm to 12 am.

Timer 2 would be on the first 3 hours, off 9 hours, on 3 hours, off 9 hours.For example: on 12 am to 3 am, off 3 am to 12 pm, on 12 pm to 3 pm , off 3 pm to 12 am.

Timer 3 would be off the first 6 hours, on 3 hours, off 9 hours, on 3 hours. off 3 hours. For example: on 6 am to 9 am, off 9 am to 6 pm, on 6 pm to 9 pm, off 9 pm to 6 am.


toke it easy :smokin:

[4leafroller]

thanks Stonewall!

[fredfarts]

Hey all! Looks like we had a super fantastic discussion on these flip flops. I learned alot. Just as a side note, My homemade flippers have been working percectly for 2 months + now, No problems at all! The contacts still look brand new so I am sure the relays are heavy enough. The bulbs are fine and as I stated earlier IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks all!
Fred

[latewood]

Hey all! Looks like we had a super fantastic discussion on these flip flops. I learned alot. Just as a side note, My homemade flippers have been working percectly for 2 months + now, No problems at all! The contacts still look brand new so I am sure the relays are heavy enough. The bulbs are fine and as I stated earlier IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks all!
Fred
How about some piks and explanation of your home meade flip flop///peace

[fredfarts]

I will post some pics soon sorry I have been away

[DB2004]

Finally got my website running. It's only an intro page now, but will be much more info and products listed soon. Check out nowirenuts.ca

Best Regards

DB