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xblackdogx

04-20-2006, 07:18 PM

"Gov't Concedes No Moussaoui-Reid Evidence

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By MATTHEW BARAKAT Associated Press Writer

April 20,2006 | ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- The government conceded Thursday it had no evidence that would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid was to have conducted a terrorist hijacking with Zacarias Moussaoui, as Moussaoui has claimed.

The defense introduced a statement, agreed to by the government, that was presented to the jury considering whether Moussaoui should be executed or imprisoned for life.

Moussaoui had stunned his trial on March 27 by claiming for the first time that he had intended to participate in the Sept. 11 attacks before his arrest a month earlier.

Earlier, defense lawyers tried to bring Reid to court from a federal prison in Colorado, where he is serving a life sentence for attempting to detonate a shoe bomb on a trans-Atlantic flight in late 2001.

That bid was thwarted. But defense attorneys were able to obtain from the government its agreement on the statement about Reid instead.

"No information is available to indicate that Richard Reid had pre-knowledge of the Sept. 11 operation or was instructed by al-Qaida leaders to conduct an operation in coordination with Moussaoui," the statement said.

It also said Reid had named Moussaoui as the beneficiary in his will and two FBI analysts concluded that was an unlikely decision for him to make if they were going to be on a joint suicide mission.

The statement also said that the FBI has learned from al-Qaida sources that Reid had been ordered to undertake shoe-bombing attacks in late 2001 with another operative, Saajid Badat, who pulled out of the operation and has never been heard from again.

The two FBI analysts also said that it was unlikely Reid was part of a Sept. 11 plot with Moussaoui because he spent the period from May to September 2001 traveling abroad, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Turkey and Amsterdam and The Hague in the Netherlands.

By contrast, the statement said, all members of the Sept. 11 operation were in the United States by July 2001.

Defense lawyers hoped the statement would undercut the surprising witness-stand claim by Moussaoui that he and Reid were to have been part of the attacks. The lawyers have been suggesting in their questions that their client lied either to achieve martyrdom through execution or to enhance his role in history."

[Salon provides breaking news articles from the Associated Press as a service to its readers, but does not edit the AP articles it publishes."

Â© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.]

xblackdogx

04-20-2006, 07:21 PM

if Reid didn't know of the 9/11 attacks and he was going to to shoe bombings in late 2001, that proves alot if indeed true: moussaoui is not guilty of these charges, al queda isnt involved in 9/11: they were planning other attacks though, but nothing that catastrophic

Psycho4Bud

04-20-2006, 08:48 PM

And how does this prove that Al-Quada wasn't involved?:confused:

pisshead

04-20-2006, 09:39 PM

there's no way some tinpot muslim terrorists could have pulled off 9/11...it would be funny if the consequences of that lie weren't so grave.

Bong30

04-20-2006, 11:53 PM

there's no way some tinpot muslim terrorists could have pulled off 9/11...it would be funny if the consequences of that lie weren't so grave.

There is no way this happened either.....ohhh yea im sure you think it diidnt.

quit drinking the koolaid (info wars)

http://www.sptimes.com/News/122999/Sports/Terrorists_turn__72_M.shtml

Terrorists turn '72 Munich Olympics into bloodbath

Eleven Israeli athletes are killed during daylong siege. Airport shootout also leaves 5 captors, 1 policeman dead.
By BRUCE LOWITT

Â© St. Petersburg Times, published December 29, 1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time was, wars were suspended during the Olympics and armies prohibited from attacking the ancient Games. Truces permitted worshippers and athletes to travel safely.

Times change.

Modern Olympics have been suspended for two world wars.

At 4:30 a.m. Sept. 5, 1972, war, politics and religion invaded the Munich Olympics.

Terrorists claiming to be from Black September, a Palestinian guerrilla group, stole into the Olympic Village dressed as athletes and carrying their weapons in gym bags. They killed two Israelis and took nine hostage.

The terrorists demanded the release of 200 Arab guerrillas jailed in Israel and safe passage for themselves and the hostages. By 11 p.m. the hostages, five of their captors and one West German police officer were dead, the outcome of a failed rescue attempt. Three Arabs were captured.

During the siege, with two Israelis already dead, Avery Brundage, president of the International Olympic Committee, ordered that the Games continue.

"Walled off in their dream world," New York Times columnist Red Smith wrote, "appallingly unaware of the realities of life and death, the aging playground directors who conduct this quadrennial muscle dance ruled that a little blood must not be permitted to interrupt play."

The following day, competition was suspended. The 11 surviving Israeli Olympians, wearing white yarmulkes and maroon blazers, sat among 3,000 athletes, surrounded by 80,000 spectators, honoring and mourning their murdered teammates in a memorial service at the enormous Olympic Stadium.

Five hours later, Brundage decreed that the Games resume, another controversial decision criticized by Israel and other nations, though some Israelis said canceling the Games would have been giving in to blackmail. Also controversial: a pre-Olympic decision by Israel to deal with its security concerns without special treatment from West Germany.

From various accounts, this is what took place that Tuesday in September:

The assault on 31 Connolly St., one of the buildings at the Olympic Village, began at about 5 a.m. with a knock on the door of 33-year-old wrestling coach Moshe Weinberg. He opened it a crack, saw the attackers, put his shoulder to the door and shouted, "Boys, get out!" Weightlifting coach Tuvia Sokolsky said that as he fled, he saw Weinberg hit by a hail of bullets through the door.

Weinberg was ordered to lead the terrorists to other Israeli rooms. He pointed to one with wrestlers and weightlifters, hoping they could overpower the attackers. Then he collapsed and died.

Joseph Romano, 32, a weightlifter, was next to die, also by automatic rifle fire. By now, other Israelis were being warned of the attack. Six escaped through a rear door. Three hundred armed police officers sealed off the area. Brundage and other Olympic officials convened. The siege began.

At 9:35 a.m. the terrorists issued their demands. Negotiations with Munich police chief Manfred Schreiber, in charge of Olympic security, commenced. The Arabs set a noon deadline. They said two Israelis would be shot if the demands were not met.

The deadline was set back to 1 p.m., then 3, then 5, then the Arabs canceled it. Negotiations dragged on. The terrorists rejected an offer of unlimited ransom. They rejected an offer by Schreiber that he and two high-ranking officials take the hostages' place. In Israel, Premier Golda Meir said her government stood by its policy of not dealing with terrorists.

Schreiber said he believed the building could not be successfully stormed, that the terrorists were desperate and would not relent no matter how many lives were lost. He and his colleagues spent the afternoon devising plans to get the Arabs and Israelis out. At dusk, the terrorists said they would consider leaving with the hostages.

Negotiators began trying to persuade the terrorists they could leave West Germany safely. But they were working under Brundage's instructions not to let the Arabs leave with the hostages.

A helicopter pad was hastily built nearby. The Tunisian ambassador obtained permission from his government to let a plane carrying the hostages and terrorists land at a Tunisian airfield.

At 8 p.m. a bus pulled up to 31 Connolly St. The Arab leader demanded a different green army bus "so there was no chance to do anything," Schreiber said later. "They were too clever."

At 8:50 p.m. the first of three helicopters landed at the Olympic Village. Meanwhile, a Lufthansa 737 was flown to the military air base at Furstenfeldbruck, 15 miles west of the village.

At 9 p.m. West German Chancellor Willy Brandt phoned President Anwar el-Sadat of Egypt. Premier Aziz Sidky reportedly took the call and, when asked for help, told Brandt, "We do not want to get involved in this" and hung up.

A minute or two after 10 p.m., the terrorists and hostages emerged from the building, the Israelis bound, blindfolded and tied close together. "This made it impossible to try anything with sharpshooters inside the village," Schreiber recalled. Weightlifters David Berger, 26, and Zeev Friedman, 28; weightlifting instructor Yacob Springer, 51; wrestlers Eliezer Halfin, 28, and Mark Slavin, 18; wrestling referee Yosef Gutfreund, 41; fencing coach Andre Spitzer, 45; athletics coach Amitzur Shapira, 32, and marksmanship coach Kehat Schorr, 53, were herded into the bus. Schreiber and two officials rode with them to the helicopters. The West Germans boarded one, the terrorists and hostages the others. They landed at Furstenfeldbruck at 10:30 p.m.

The pilots had been told the West Germans would try to rescue the Israelis because allowing the Arabs to leave with them "would have been a certain death sentence for the hostages," Bruno Merk, interior minister of Bavaria, said. What happened was not what the pilots expected. The Arabs told them to stand in front of their aircraft, breaking a promise that West Germans would not be involved as hostages. Two Arabs and one or more Israelis walked the 170 yards to the plane for an inspection. They were walking back when one or more sharpshooters hidden in the darkness fired. In the ensuing firefight, the Arabs on the ground killed the Israelis with them. Other terrorists leaped from the helicopters. Several unleashed automatic fire into one, killing the Israelis inside. One of the terrorists tossed a hand grenade into the other helicopter, killing its occupants.

Five days later, in the rain, a subdued closing ceremony was held that included a silent meditation and fewer athletes than usual. The flags of the competing nations were paraded around the stadium. Israel's was not among them.

-- Information from the New York Times was used in this report

Gumby

04-21-2006, 02:02 AM

What do the '72 hostages have to do with the world trade center??

Bong people aren't saying terrorist don't exsist... they are saying they didn't blow up the WTC, our government were the nice people who did that...

This shit is 35 years old... please tell me why it's relevent now? Once again your contribution to this argument is pointless and ignorant... Please stop finding usless newpaper stories about terrorist and try to read what we keep explaining over and over again...

Your arguments are become more and more irrelevent though... does this mean you're giving in? Finially seeing the light huh?? Well, if you do welcome to the real world... if not I do believe that there was a terrorist attack in the 30's that's pretty important... you should google it and make sure you have it for the next time you wanna throw shit around...

Breukelen advocaat

04-21-2006, 04:29 AM

there's no way some tinpot muslim terrorists could have pulled off 9/11...it would be funny if the consequences of that lie weren't so grave.

I fail to see why the planes' hijackers could not be muslims. Are you saying that they are not capable of putting box cutters up to people's throats and demanding control of the planes? How hard is it, after flying lessons, to steer them the direction of the WTC, or other large targets?

If it was not jihadists, what other kind of crazy lunatics would kill themselves in an unprecedented attack like this? I just can't picture any government agents killing themselves in a suicide mission like this - not to mention that they would be murdering thousands of innocent people in the process.

Bong30

04-21-2006, 02:21 PM

He said there is no way it could have been pulled off........seams to me they have been trying for a long time

its called case` history..... showing that they have done it in the past, and they will do it again.

At 4:30 a.m. Sept. 5, 1972, war, politics and religion invaded the Munich Olympics.

Terrorists claiming to be from Black September, a Palestinian guerrilla group, stole into the Olympic Village dressed as athletes and carrying their weapons in gym bags. They killed two Israelis and took nine hostage.

sound way diff..... uh hh no sounds like same shit, diff time
http://factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000660.html

this is new could have been 35 years old too....learn before you post gumby

So far the Palestinian Islamic Jiihad, Hamas and Arafat's thugs from the Al-Aksa brigades have rejected the "Roadmap to peace" and have continued murdering Israeli women and children. They also call for the destruction of Israel and for the genocide of her Jewish citizens.

Some have said that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is like a "20,000 lb gorilla" in the room. Yes, there is a gorilla, but it's not the in the room. This gorilla is called the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and it's sitting on the roadmap, blocking any progress to peace. That's what no one mentions.

Gumby

04-21-2006, 03:32 PM

It's still 3 years old... quite finding random shit and thinking it impressed anyone... you're just proving your lack of education... they didn't blow up buildings either they held hostages... you can turn on the fucking tv and find one of those... you can watch the news and see murder... you can see rapes, beatings theft, whatever the fuck you want to watch and they won't be jihadist... so drop that shit like they are they only one's who've ever caused harm...

NO ONE HAS EVER FLOWN A PLANE INTO THE WTC BEFORE... no jihad, no terrorist... no one... it was the first time ever... the last terrorist attack on US soil was caused by US citizens... when was the last bombing you was over here?? TURN ON THE FUCKING TV... THE HAD ANOHTER ONE TODAY OVER THERE... why the fuck do you tihnk they are bombing over there everyday but not here?? could it be caues they aren't as crazy are Bush said they were.. could it be cause he lied about something else... They don't hate us... They hate that you hate them... they hate that you think you can tell them how to live... they hate the fact that you're a fucking moron... wake the fuck up, and if you're going to pull a reference find one where a terrorist blew up something in america ok... Not some bullshit 35 year old crap or some third rate 3 years old article...

Gumby

04-21-2006, 03:36 PM

Bong30

04-21-2006, 04:23 PM

Bong30

04-21-2006, 04:38 PM

here is some more for you

read this timeline gumby...might be to much for you

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=400

2000: Attempted Flight Simulator Purchase Hints at Pilot Training At some point during this year, an FBI internal memo states that a Middle Eastern nation has been trying to purchase a flight simulator in violation of US restrictions. The FBI refuses to disclose the date or details of this memo. [Los Angeles

Gumby

04-21-2006, 05:42 PM

no what you don't understand is you are doing nothing but loading this forum with shit and it's pissing me off... some of us are trying to talk and debate, but you don't understand the fundementals of that... I'm not yelling at anyone else or calling them stupid, it's just you... because you never seem to stop proving it to me.

The stuff you post is worthless... my dog could pull better sources... what don't you understand about why I get upset when you take 2 miinutes to google some bullshit and post it after one of us would like to just have a discussion... I mean honestly do you even read the shit you post?? It's horrible... I want to argue against myself just cause it's pointless to keep doing it with you. I can pull better facts to disprove myself more than you are doing and that's sad... I want you to educate yourself and then come back and post something relevent. Next time you don't agree with something someone says don't further show off your stupidity by posting crap, that's why I keep saying FUCK, cause you get annoying...

and why would the government have all that information and know about the 9/11 attacks yet do nothing to stop it? you have a time line from 1999 showing everything they knew, over 2000+ days worth of knowledge, yet they did nothing, and even said afterwards they had no knowledge of it... You're not helping your cause any... if you weren't aware Moussoui is being tried for life because he had previous knowledge of the event and did nothing, .... so since you're proving our government knew about it we should kill all of them too?? They had previous knowledge and did nothing about it... afterwards claimed they had no idea it would happen... they lied to us and cheated us... defend them for that then...

I mean honestly either way if they knew about it they should have done something... anything... they did nothing...

But they did know... they knew there were threats, and did it themselves cause they could lie about it... I mean you keep saying they were Jihad and that's why the terrorist did it, but they won't take claim for it?? Bin Laden denies being involved?? If you could get credit for causing the worst attack on US soil why wouldn't you?? Why would you deny it??

Bong30

04-21-2006, 05:57 PM

you have come from.....the USA did it!!!!!!!!!!!

to

they knew(it was muslim extremist), and should have done something...

Come to the dark side........luke (star wars)

you will be chapter pres. of the young republicans.....of Fla.....lol

Bong30

04-21-2006, 06:01 PM

... my dog could pull better sources...

well then put your dog on the PC, and tell him too.

Gumby

04-21-2006, 06:25 PM

perhaps you should have finished reading what I wrote, because I explained what they did with the knowledge that terrorist hated us... they used it to lie to people like you. They didn't have evidence of the attack and still don't know who caused it.

I think it was them because the people they do claim did it are alive because the government was involved. That is the only reason I can think of that when they found 9 of the 22 people who were on the planes alive they should have reopened the investigation and done it again. But since they haven't and won't and still say it's Bin Laden, although he is still at large but Sadam isn't (odd), I have a feeling they did it. Why is it that we can go to war for years to fight 'terror' yet it doesn't matter that we find the people who originated it all?? Explain to me that... why do they not alteast try to figure out which terrorist it was that caused it?? That's all we want.. I mean they lied about wanting to go to war with Iraq, why not lie about wanting to go to war with terror??

How can you not atleast want to find the men who were involved, even if they are muslim jihads... why not atleast find the right ones??

Gumby

04-21-2006, 06:29 PM

my dog would atleast know who'd hit him if they did... he doesn't take someone elses word for it and goes out to attack them... Before he'd fight you he'd make sure you wanted to fight him... that's what make a dog a dog and not a pussy... something you should take a lesson from....

Breukelen advocaat

04-21-2006, 10:39 PM

"I fail to see why the planes' hijackers could not be muslims. Are you saying that they are not capable of putting box cutters up to people's throats and demanding control of the planes? How hard is it, after flying lessons, to steer them the direction of the WTC, or other large targets?"when did muslims become the only ones who could fly airplanes... I was unaware that they were the only ones allowed... and I'm sure you're well aware of how easy it is to fly a plane that size... why don't you listen to his flight instructor talk about how he couldn't fly the plane... I bet that won't matter though.. Bush can give you 22 name, 9 of which are still alive, and show that days before the pilots didn't even know how to fly a smaller planes... yet still believe him... IGNORANT

If it was not jihad terrorists, then who else would sacrifice their lives and the lives of thousands of people in the U.S.? All I know is that whoever did this had to HATE their victims, and be certifiably insane.

Again, in my opinion, we should buy no oil from the middle east, and cut off all business relations with them until they eliminate the threats. If there is STILL terrorism, then we must promise to kill the entire family of anybody that commits jihad - and do it if they don't listen. Thanks to the "terroristsâ? video from www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com, 5/28/04 for the last suggestion. "Bat Day" is another good one, on the same Website: www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com

Gumby

04-22-2006, 01:14 AM

Breukelen advocaat

04-22-2006, 02:34 AM

did you ever think that we haven't stopped using thier oil and buying thier drugs, ( the us government is the largest drug buyer in the world by the way) because they make the people in charge money?? Did you ever think that the people in charge may not care about you?? I'm sure you don't think about me when your out daily much less everyone else... I'm sure is someone offered you 7 billion dollars you'd kill someone too... when it's coming from the people in charge of everything...
What makes it different than our troops torturing them? People are people, they are not different than you or I... they believe in what they believe just as strong as you do... why can't you understand that and realize that it's the people like you on thier side who fight with people like you on our side??
they hate you cause you hate them... that's all... try not hating them and i'm sure they wouldn't hate us...

Yes. There is corruption, on both sides. But NOBODY is that that exploited or desperate enough, especially the typical middle class jihad practitioner, to join a movement like the ones we are talking about. If someone offered me 700 billion dollars, I still wouldn't kill anybody - unless they deserved to die. The people killed on 9/11 were innocent. Period. Besides, what good will the money do you if you have to kill yourself in the process? Of course, the families of the jihadists are often rewarded for the terrorist attacks. Their â??rewardâ? should be a surgically- executed massacre of the families - by us.

You are living in a fool's paradise. If you think that everybody that "hates" me is that way because I hate them, well, you haven't been around very much. Anybody that has spent as much time as I have in an urban environment, among 125+ ethnic groups, knows that there are some people that hate you for no damn good reason. And Islam fosters such hate in susceptible people - not in all of them, but enough in their culture to allow these events to happen. And it is considered to be treason and heresy to oppose it, even if you are not one of the people chosen to be a martyr through jihad.

The Muslim extremists want to run the entire world, with a theocracy that they are in charge of as itâ??s head. They make no bones about it. This goes against everything that the West stands for, at this point. Al quada's ultimate goal, if their wishes are not met, is to have the world destroy itself so that Allah can start over - with "His" people in charge.

Let them take care of their own problems. I am not in favor of any kind of â??first strikeâ? war at this point - just a major boycott, like the one that they are trying to foist upon Denmark, or any other people that they so choose.

We shouldnâ??t be using oil, regardless of the threat of terrorism. Itâ??s bad for the environment, and we could live just as well, or better, with much less of it. But if you think that we should welcome Islam with open arms, and allow them to destroy our country from within, even â??peacefullyâ?, you are just a masochist.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html

Shelbay

04-22-2006, 02:41 AM

uh-oh I think I have a fever..I agree totally with your post Breukelen:thumbsup:

Breukelen advocaat

04-22-2006, 04:07 AM

uh-oh I think I have a fever..I agree totally with your post Breukelen:thumbsup:

Sorry to hear that you're not feeling well. I know that it's a custom here to advise somthing else - but some peppermint or chamomile tea, and rest, would probably be more helpful. :thumbsup:

Geez, after reading that stuff about the diseases that illegal aliens bring here, I'm starting to feel funny myself. I think I've probably been exposed to so much where I live, that we've probably developed immunities to things that we don't even know about. I think I'll juice an orange and add some Absolut.:dance:

Gumby

04-22-2006, 03:02 PM

Bong30

04-22-2006, 04:09 PM

I may be sick as well... thats a "NO BRAINER"

some of our troops have died fighting for what they believe is right as well... you bet they have...... for Hippies like you

I don't see how that is different from you thinking about them. I mean I understand Jihad,(might be the most ignorant statement made on CCPF) and thier religion.... I know they hate us... but did you ever try to think of why they hated us rathed than wanting to hate them back??

Listen gumby....I am not MUSLIM. That is why they hate us. I wont conform I dont think that Mohammad was a profet. What will they do with me? Just like a commie left wing pussie like you would. KILL ME.:what:

you dont know shit..........

Gumby

04-22-2006, 05:08 PM

profet.... what the hell is a profet?? do your kids know thier dad is a dumbass??
Muslims don't hate you... if they did you'd be dead... the Muslims who are just like you hate you... so do the Jews that are just like you and the Hindu just like... What I'm trying to say, and what is not making it's way into your think skull, is that it isn't thier religion... Muslims are some of the most peaceful loving people there are - It's just that we only see people like you from their side because it's all the dumbasses who don't know shit that have to keep flabbing their mouths wishing death on everyone that are heard...

Muslims aren't like christians and believe that they must push thier religion on other people... that's why we are in Iraq and Iraq is not inside the US...

And it's people you who give Christians a bad name, just like the extreme Muslims give them a bad name... christian would not wish death upon anyone... they would love their neighbor... they would have forgiveness... and show respect... I may lack the latter sometimes, but I atleast don't wish death upon anyone nor hate anyone... I don't care if they hate me either...

and they only hate you because you've taken christianity and wiped your ass with it... they don't want to kill you because you're not muslim they want to kill you because you practice part of what they practice but do it in the most ignorant way.

and next time learn how to spell before you tell me I don't know shit... and don't try the I don't care about grammer cause profet is just fucking retarded... maybe you should pick up a fone, take a fotograph, listen to a fonograph, take a fyics class something so you don't sound like a phucking retard next time you post something ok :) :)

by the way please tell me you atleast don't homeschool your kids...

Breukelen advocaat

04-22-2006, 06:22 PM

I may be sick as well... mostly I agree with you... but the only part I don't agree with is that people and hatered... I know people hate me, I know them personally... I don't like some people sometimes... But I'm more of a hippie than an idiot... I mean if we all just loved everyone there would be no hate. That's how I feel... and it only starts with youself... The Golden Rule 200,000 Iraq civilans have died since we've been there... you support that war with your money... some of our troops have died fighting for what they believe is right as well... I don't see how that is different from you thinking about them. I mean I understand Jihad, and thier religion.... I know they hate us... but did you ever try to think of why they hated us rathed than wanting to hate them back?? Cause I'm sure they are just like any of us, if we just sat down and smoked a bowl we could talk and not have any ill feelings for each other. But we don't - americans are too brianwashed to believe that Muslims hate us and we have to kill them before they kill us...
what makes you think Bush and Dick can't sit in a room and decide to kill 3,000 americans to gain unlimted power and wealth?? You really think they care about you?? I know they have no idea who I am and could give two shits how I died. Hitmen kill people for $10,000.... just cause you couldn't kill people for money doesn't mean they couldn't... I mean hell look what they've done to the planet. They've killed all of our grandchilderen. They've caused more debt than all the other presidents COMBINED... they lied about going to war with Iraq... they spied on Americans... Lied to congress... Leaked classified information... have built concentration camps around the world...I just don't see how you don't think the worst office in our history could do something a little worse...

The point of this discussion was 9/11. That happened well BEFORE the Iraq War. I do not believe the Iraq War was perfect, but I have not been there, and people have different opinions - including Iraq people themselves. Again, 9/11, the U.S. Cole, and the 1993 WTC bombings were earlier.

"Hitmen" get paid to kill, but not just random people. Most of them, I'd say, would not do something like 9/11 - and NONE of them would kill themselves in a jihad or kamikaze attack - unless they had a rational reason. I don't know any "hitmen" personally, but growing up where I did I've seen and heard things that bear out my theory.

OK, it's a lousy presidential crew - I'll give you that. Just for the sake of argument, I'll concede that they could have known about, or had a hand in, the events of 9/11. The fact is that MUSLEM extremist terrorists did it - NOT trained American agents. That's all that I'm 99.9% sure of. Many Americans will give their lives to save other people, NOT to go to Allah, or other rewards that they believe they will be entitled to for suicide attacks

There is no exploitation or abuse of the Muslims great enough to warrant the daily suicide jihads. Most of the attackers are twisted,, â??lostâ? boys that have always been with us, but did not have the organization or tools to accomplish these horrific acts. Maybe itâ??s the religion, diet, custom, or other factors that cause them to behave this way, but itâ??s got to stop. The best way to do this is, whenever we have had enough of it, and as non-violently as possible, pull out of the Middle East and cut off all business with them until those that are inclined to hate and kill are either eliminated by their own kind, or otherwise persuaded that itâ??s not in their best interest.

P.S. The Golden Rule (Do UNTO others as you would have them DO UNTO you) is no good. The earlier one, the so-called "Silver" Rule, from ancient Asia, is far better: DON'T do anything to others that you would NOT want done to you.

Psycho4Bud

04-22-2006, 06:50 PM

...I just don't see how you don't think the worst office in our history could do something a little worse...

Kind of like I stated before.....how could they get away with something of this magnitude when Clinton couldn't even get away with an Oval Office hummer? If it don't fit, you must acquit!:D

Gumby

04-23-2006, 05:31 PM

The fact is that MUSLEM extremist terrorists did it - NOT trained American agents. That's all that I'm 99.9% sure of. Many Americans will give their lives to save other people, NOT to go to Allah, or other rewards that they believe they will be entitled to for suicide attacks

how are you 99.9% sure when 40% of the people they said caused it are alive?? and I still don't see how you can think people can't or won't kill themselves and others... how many people do you think get killed everyday over stupid crap like drugs, women and money? people kill other people...

I mean it not the Muslims that are running around killing everyone... people kill. If you are brainwashed enough to think that what you are doing is correct and for the better good I can understand people doing a lot of things...
Much like torturing people, holding them in camps for years without a trail, not allowing people to speak freely, not taking blame for anything wrong, not telling the truth for the cause of war, not caring about the soliders that are over there (Bush has killed almost 3000 soliders, how is that different??), Spying on american citizens, I mean I still don't see how you can say it's ok for them to do all that, but to kill people... never...

I mean when was the last terrorist attack here?? when his approval rating was the highest ever in the history of the US, and now he has the worst ever?? RING RING... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!! he had just stolen an election and knew that he was facing a shit storm, the one is in right now, so he blew up the WTC to gain unlimted power and support.

don't you think our borders would have been secure 3 years ago if our government was really afraid of an attack?? 11 million people have come in since then? YA they are afraid...

The government controls the television and the news that is aired on it... it's only because of the internet that people have been able to talk about things freely and is why this government wants to pass laws restricting what we can and cannot have and write online... that's why they are affraid of digital television... I mean honeslty just take a step back and look at things from the outside - do you think the people that turned the ovens on and let the gas loose couldn't kill people?? They were just like you and sttod aside while they trusted Hitler and did as he said cause they bleieved thier leader blindly... that's all I'm asking.... don't follow Bush with your blinders on, look at the big picture... look at the past presidents and look at this one, if you cannot tell he is one of the worst if not the worst then why still support him?/ Our contry was founded on the idea that it shoulld be ran by the people... if we don't think he's the best for the job he shouldn't be there... he really shouldn't be there this long either... the people in power have been in power for 25-30 years and it's unpresidented... washington stepped doewn because he didn't want this to happen... he wanted new governmnet contraolled by the people not the people controlled by a government....

andyandy

04-23-2006, 05:42 PM

well said gumby - a very eloquently expressed put down. My sentiments exactly.....

lets all love thy neighbours.....

:)

Psycho4Bud

04-23-2006, 05:46 PM

[QUOTE=Gumby]

don't you think our borders would have been secure 3 years ago if our government was really afraid of an attack?? 11 million people have come in since then? YA they are afraid...

The border has been a problem since way before G.W.s day.

The government controls the television and the news that is aired on it...
[QUOTE]

Once again, how is it that if the government has such control ol' Bill couldn't get a hummer while Bush can plot something of this magnitude?:confused:

Breukelen advocaat

04-23-2006, 06:14 PM

well said gumby - a very eloquently expressed put down. My sentiments exactly.....
lets all love thy neighbours.....
:)

Hey Dandyandy,

Thanks for your words of wisdom. Next time I'm an eyewitness to the mass murder of 2500+ people by religious psychopaths I'll be sure to remember to apply the advice "love thy neighbours" toward the perps.

Great Spirit

04-23-2006, 07:21 PM

This is what the Neo-cons..or shall I say Neo-Nazis in Amerika did. They simply EXPLOITED THE JIHADISTS!!! They figure that they could blame it all on Muslims. Just like Hitler exploited the communists back in 1933 when the the Nazis set the Reichstag on fire and blamed it on a communist. Bush and his administration made everyone believe that it was Muslim terrorists with boxcutters that hijacked 4 airplanes...which is ridiculous. I have doubts to the official story. Lol you ask a politician about 9/11 and they say "read the official 9/11 report!" Fucken dooschbags.

I mean, surely the US being the sole super power that it is would have scrambled its fighter jets to intercept the "hijacked" planes, yet there weren't. Right there that makes me suspicious. The planes that hit the WTC were remote controlled. No one was on them. They created fake phone calls to pass it off as the real deal. As for the people...they probably pulled names out of their asses. Afterall, it is the US government!! They can make you believe whatever you want to hear.

Yes Al-Qaeda is a real terrorist organization, but there goals are to kick out foreign domination which includes the US and keep Islam the dominate religion. They have no interest in conquering us or the world. Thats the Illuminati's doing!!

Al Qaeda is like a bee....you fuck with them then they'll fuck with you. Yes they're stupid and they take their religion to a dangerous level, but so does Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism, God supposedly orders the death of women and children in the conquest for Cannan and order the deaths of homosexuals, and fundemental Christians praise the deaths of homosexuals and believe that billions of people will spend eternity in a literal physical hell simply for not believing in Jesus. The KKK is a Amerikan Christian terrorist group. Perhaps Amerikans should be targeting their own terrorist organizations instead of ones thousands of miles away! So there is no big difference between fundementalists of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

I really don't know how humans became so dumb but its really pissing me off. I just want to chill man!

Muslim: Kill the infidel in the name of Allah! Our Quran says so!
Jew: Kill the adulterer in the name of Yaweh! Our Torah says so!
Christian: Kill the homosexual in the name of Christ! Jews who don't believe in Jesus go to hell! Islam is Satan's religion! Israel has come back together and this is the sign for Christ's second coming! Our Bible says so!

Gumby

04-24-2006, 05:41 PM

[QUOTE=Gumby]

don't you think our borders would have been secure 3 years ago if our government was really afraid of an attack?? 11 million people have come in since then? YA they are afraid...

The border has been a problem since way before G.W.s day.

yes but it was in his 'reign' that 9/11 happened... over 3 years ago. If they were really afraid of another attack wouldn't they have made a better deal to guard our borders? There is still only a 5% search rate of incoming cargo... I know our borders were weak before, I am mearly saying if someone brakes into your house and you are afraid they are going to do it again, you don't use the same system you had before... you buy an alarm system, get new locks... get a dog... buy a gun... I mean it's ignorant to think otherwise.

The government controls the television and the news that is aired on it...
[QUOTE]

Once again, how is it that if the government has such control ol' Bill couldn't get a hummer while Bush can plot something of this magnitude?:confused:

They kept the pressure of Clinton because he was dumb enough to get caught in a lie - "I did not have sexual relations with that woman' I think we all remember that saying... that's why they faught for the better time of the case. It was the lying under oath, not getting a Hummer.... and if you notice the same thing is going on right now.... they are just starting with Scooter Libby, then going to Rove and so on... the legal process is long and drawn out, it's just the way it's set up and when people like Tom Delay use their 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS that he got for not rerunning for lawyers it takes a bit longer. We don't have Bush because he controls what comes out of the whitehouse and he has gained more power than any other president before him because of his 'war on terror'. When the public ask him, why did you lie about the WMDs - we're fighting a global war on terror... when the public ask him abuot spying on americans... - we're fighting a global war on terror... when they ask him about a leak - we cannot go into ongoing legal matters.... when they ask him about the avg american being in debt - we created 200,000 new jobs... when they ask him about Bin Laden - oh wait they don't anymore... when they talk about the people that die in Iraq everyday because of a war that should have never started.... I AM THE DECIDER AND I CHOOSE WHAT WE DO...

Clinton tried to talk to the people, that's why he got in trouble... bush hides everything from most people, which is why he's gotten away with it. But since the internet has become popular and information can travel without government control his ratings have dropped from 90% to 33% (the worst drop and rating EVER)... and now they are trying to regulate the internet to hide the information out there...

http://www.savetheinternet.com/

"Congress is pushing a law that would abandon Network Neutrality, the Internet's First Amendment. Network neutrality prevents companies like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast from deciding which Web sites work best for you -- based on what site pays them the most. Your local library shouldnâ??t have to outbid Barnes & Noble for the right to have its Web site open quickly on your computer."

I mean watch the news... do you think Natalee Holloway has been on tv for a year because we all give a shit? People get raped everyday, yet the Duke case has been on tv nonstop and they still don't know shit... our tv is controlled by about 5 people... that's scary and truly unamerican. They don't tell us why Bin Laden hates us, we have to wait till he puts out a tape... I had no idea that you couldn't use a picture of Mohammad until I watched South Park... I mean jesus fucking christ I get more news from South Park and the Daily Show than the real news... Ironic or controlled you tell me.

Shelbay

04-29-2006, 03:16 AM

Many people believe special attention has been given to Natalee Hollaway..maybe so..because her MOTHER keeps the information flowing..she is the one that has pushed this entire time for her daughter..she does not give up..she is from Mt. Brook,AL and the people in that community have all come together on this and keep the focus..called dedication and hard work on that one okay. I agree about South Park..haha..that was a good example:thumbsup: I had not watched South Park until a few months ago and now I watch it when I can..it is a good show imo..well the ones I have seen.

Dr. VanNostrin

04-30-2006, 04:51 PM

Keep in mind that whatever video or documentay you see that says the proper steps weren't taken to insure safety, doesn't mean that Bush planned the damn thing. Because when you go down that road you are basically saying that Bush came to a decision to fake a terrorist attack and kill thousands of people. That means he went over in his head "I'm going to kill thousands of people with radio-controlled planes, blame it on terrorists, and sit back and absorb the hatred that Americans are about to have for me." You mean to tell me that's what happened? That's fucking proposterous. I agree the guy is not suitable or smart enough for the position of President of the United States, but to say he murdered thousands so that he can get a hold of the oil (keep in mind most of us probably wont even be using the shit before long because of the prices) and risk being caught and tried for terrorism himself? You think his ENTIRE administration would go along with it? Even if they say he is guilty of neglect that doesn't mean he helped. Sure, he knew something might go down from what his advisors were telling him, but he never opened the damn envelope in the first place. It's not like he read the report and then did nothing, he never read the shit in the first place that is neglect, not a plot. Most people who think the Bush administration is responsible for this did it so that they could blame it on Iraq so they could go to war and get the oil. But they had to know the prices would rise and they had to know we would eventually be using hybrids and shit anyway. I keep saying it doesn't seem worth it and it doesn't. I could see a massive cover-up on a scale this big if there was something to gain, but what the hell has Bush gained? His people hate him, he'll probably secure a very unrespected place in our future history books, and he'll be out of the office in 2 years, and will have no more "evil powers". You think he did this shit so he could have the world hate him for the rest of his term and probably disrespect him for the rest of his life? Come on, the guy is an idiot and no idiot is gonna pull of some shit like you are saying he pulled off. It was terrorists who killed people, not your president

Gumby

04-30-2006, 06:01 PM

i wanna know why everyone thinks it's so easy for a terrorist, much less 22 of them, to all get on planes with box cutters and take them over... fly them into buildings and then show up alive. To me that's more of a conspiricy than our president knowing he was about to blow them up.

Dont' forget it was right after a rigged election and he didn't want people looking into that... he needed to keep attention away from how shitty a job as president he had done....

http://filmstripinternational.com/filmstrips.php?filmstrip=election

Don't forget his aproval rating shot to a historic 90+% approval rating... never has that happened before... and with that he was able to pass a ton of bills that gave him power no president has ever had... mainly including the Patriot Act. Don't forget he was aslo able to win the House and Senate and have full power to make more money for his and his partners companies.

http://filmstripinternational.com/index.php

Don't forget he has only been 'checked' 3 times by congress in the past term... where as Clinton was 'checked' over 1,000 times... it's the better half of the 'checks and balances'. When you have full control over governmnet... you can be a dictator... something he wanted.

Don't forget he has ordered more deaths in Iraq for a war inwhich we should have never been in. He lied about that, why could he not lie about 9/11?? What's different between that? I see nothing more than another dictator who was put into power...

don't forget you get a million dollars if you can prove it wasn't blown up...

http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm

don't forget we have video of it being blown up...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=9%2F11

Don't forget that the 9/11 commision report was wrong and incomplete...

http://filmstripinternational.com/filmstrips.php?filmstrip=griffin

don't forget that Bush has a worse past filled with corruption and disgrace than any of the terrorist you can find... why again is it so hard for Bush to kill people but not some random guy?? A person is a person and a death is a death, no matter who caused it... Is Jihad the only reason you can find to explian why terrorist flew planes into buildings in america?? Who and why would anyone do something like that??

Muslims just got bombed the shit out of... their countries are in turmoil, they gained nothing from the attacks... what reason would they have to cause them? They have not attacked again yet (altough silverstein just re-uped his insurance on the Sears Tower so watch out)... isn't that a little odd?? I mean we are in their country killing thier wives and kids yet not another attack in 5 years on america soil?? Oh but it was easy for them to hijack 4 planes and hit buildings here... we know it's not cause our borders are secure, Canadians want to fly to mexico and walk across because it's easier than flying in... But we're under a 'elevated terror alert"... BULLSHIT...

just take 5 hours and read something... how much have you read about what Bush said happened?? Or his story of the events?? I can't findit anywhere... I cannot find nor have found anyone that believes terrorist have done it to show me ANY evidence that it was terrorist...

I'm open minded and would love for someone to tell me I am crazy and that it was terrorists, but I am also a person who needs facts to believe in something not a story from a leader... so please, no ideas.... not thoughts... no Bush is God he couldn't hurt anyone... does anyone have anything I can read or watch that shows a different story??

I post hours of movies and pages upon pages of facts that support what I think... can just one person come on here and do the same form the toehr point of view... Please.... someone... something explaining how 22 people could hijack four planes and fly them into 3 buildings and crash one...

show me anything you wish I want to read it...

Dr. VanNostrin

04-30-2006, 06:30 PM

Why is it so hard for you to believe the planes were hijacked? A boxcutter could very easily get past security no problem, especially prior to 9/11, and four people per plane who suddenly jump up weilding the things could make their way to the cockpit. I know a guy pulls one on me, especially four of them, I'm gonna get out of his way, I don't know about you. Once inside the cockpit it would not be very difficult to crash the planes I mean shit they didn't even have to actually fly all they had to do was stear. And what hijackers were found alive? Aside from that you are still saying that Bush came to the conscious decision to kill thousands of people and thus create a vast hatred for himself and pretty much screw us for the future cause no countries are going to want to help us next time we need it. If he thought through how to do it and get away with it he had to be thinking about what would come from it and nothing has come from it to work in his favor to make me say, "thats why he did it!". Seriously though ask yourself what the hell would he get out of doing this? The guy is too fucking stupid pull this off and if it's such a conspiracy how come you conspiracy theorists haven't been silenced? Surely they wouldn't allow a common person like yourself to know "the truth". And if all this eveidence is so absolute you don't think at least one person with political power would be able to prove it and have his ass hanged for treason? Come on, whatever subject it is there will always be people to fabricate their own conclusion and say it was some conspiracy because, I don't know, I guess you just trust nobody and nothing that's why every event in history if a fucking conspiracy to you people. Moon landing - faked; 9/11 - plotted by bush; Kenedy - killed by someone other than obvious as fucking hell Lee Harvey Oswald. Whatever it is there will always always always be people who are absolutely sure that what they think is right cause they are so fucking paranoid

Bong30

04-30-2006, 06:42 PM

ok gumby try this....sounds about right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_Terrorist_Attack

The attacks started with the hijacking of four commercial airliners. With jet fuel capacities of nearly 24,000 U.S. gallons (91,000 liters),[3] each aircraft became a flying incendiary bomb. American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the north side of the north tower of the World Trade Center (WTC) at 8:46:40 a.m. local time (12:46:40 UTC). At 9:03:11 a.m. local time (13:03:11 UTC), United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, an event covered live by television broadcasters that had their cameras trained on the North Tower. American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37:46 a.m. local time (13:37:46 UTC). The fourth hijacked plane, United Airlines Flight 93, crashed in a field in southwest Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC), with parts and debris found up to eight miles away. The crash in Pennsylvania is believed to have resulted from the hijackers either deliberately crashing the aircraft or losing control of it as they fought with the passengers. No one survived in any of the hijacked aircraft.[4]

The fatalities were in the thousands: 265 on the four planes; 2,595, including 343 New York City firefighters, 23 NYPD police officers, and 37 Port Authority police officers, in the towers and on the ground; and 125 civilians and military personnel at the Pentagon. At least 2,986 people were killed in total. In addition to the 110-floor Twin Towers of the World Trade Center itself, five other buildings at the WTC site, including WTC building 7, and four subway stations were destroyed or badly damaged. In total, on Manhattan Island, 25 buildings were damaged. Communications equipment such as broadcast radio, television and two-way radio antenna towers were damaged beyond repair. In Arlington County, a portion of the Pentagon was severely damaged by fire and one section of the building collapsed.[5]

The Pentagon was severely damaged during the attack, and 125 lives were lost.Some passengers and crew members were able to make phone calls from the doomed flights. They reported that multiple hijackers were aboard each plane. A total of 19 were later identified by the FBI, four on United 93 and five each on the other three flights.

For a short period, the precise identity of the 19 hijackers was uncertain. For example, the BBC reported 14 days after the attack that 4 of the 19 were alive based upon the initial identification supplied by the FBI.[6]

The hijackers reportedly took control of the aircraft by using box-cutter knives to kill flight attendants and at least one pilot or passenger. The 9/11 Commission could only establish that two of the hijackers had recently purchased Leatherman multi-function hand tools,[7] but some form of noxious chemical spray, such as tear gas or pepper spray, was reported to have been used on American 11 and United 175 to keep passengers out of the first-class cabin. Bomb threats were made on three of the aircraft, but not on American 77.

In the fourth airplane, black box recordings reportedly revealed that crew and passengers attempted to seize control of the plane from the hijackers, who then rocked the plane in a failed attempt to subdue the passengers. According to 9-1-1 tapes, one of the passengers, Todd Beamer, had asked for the operator to pray with him before the passengers attempted to retake the aircraft. After praying, he simply said, "Let's roll." (The 9/11 Commission stated that Beamer actually said "Roll it," most likely referring to a drinks cart being used as a battering ram.) The term "Let's roll" would later become the war cry for those fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Soon afterward, the aircraft crashed into a field near Shanksville in Stonycreek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, at 10:03:11 a.m. local time (14:03:11 UTC). There is a dispute about the exact timing of the crash, founded on the seismic evidence which indicates that the impact occurred at 10:06 a.m..[8] The 9/11 Panel reports that captured al-Qaeda mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed said that Flight 93's target was the U.S. Capitol, which was given the code name, "The Faculty of Law."

See also: Communication during the September 11, 2001 attacks
[edit]
Fatalities
Number of fatalities World Trade Center Towers 2,595
Flight 11 92
Flight 175 65
Pentagon Building 125
Flight 77 64
Shanksville Flight 93 45
Total 2,986
At the World Trade Center, faced with a desperate situation of smoke and burning heat from the jet fuel, an estimated 200 people jumped to their deaths from the burning towers (as depicted in the photograph The Falling Man), landing on the streets and rooftops of adjacent buildings hundreds of feet below (a reaction to the attacks similar to the effects of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire). In addition, some of the occupants of each tower above its point of impact made their way upward toward the roof in hope of helicopter rescue. No rescue plan existed for such an eventuality. By some accounts, fleeing occupants instead encountered locked access doors upon reaching the roof. In any case, thick smoke prevented rescue helicopters from landing.

As many as 1,366 people were trapped at and above the floors of impact in the North Tower (1 WTC). None of them survived. As many as 600 people were trapped at and above the floors of impact in the South Tower (2 WTC). Only about 18 managed to escape in time from above the impact zone and out of the South Tower before it collapsed.

As the suburbs around New York City learned of the destruction so close to home, many schools closed for the day, evacuated, or were locked down. Other school districts shielded students from watching television because many of their parents held jobs in the World Trade Center towers. In New Jersey and Connecticut, private schools were evacuated. Scarsdale, New York schools closed for the day. In Greenwich, Connecticut, about 15 miles north of the city, hundreds of students had direct ties to victims of the attacks. Greenwich, Connecticut, and New Canaan, Connecticut, two of the wealthiest towns in the world, had more residents killed than any other town in the New York metro area.

According to Associated Press, the city identified over 1,600 bodies but was unable to identify the rest of the bodies (about 1,100 people). They report that the city has "about 10,000 unidentified bone and tissue fragments that cannot be matched to the list of the dead."[9]

See also: Survivors of the September 11, 2001 attacks
[edit]
Other planned attacks
Allegedly 27 members of al-Qaeda attempted to enter the United States to take part in the September 11 attacks. In the end, only 19 allegedly participated. Other would-be hijackers are often referred to as the 20th hijacker.

Ramzi Binalshibh allegedly meant to take part in the attacks, but he was repeatedly denied a visa for entry into the U.S. Mohamed al-Kahtani, a Saudi Arabian citizen, may also have been planning to join the hijackers but U.S. Immigration authorities at Orlando International Airport refused his entry into the U.S. in August, 2001. He was later captured in Afghanistan and imprisoned at the U.S. military prison known as Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Zacarias Moussaoui was reportedly considered as a replacement for Ziad Jarrah, who at one point threatened to withdraw from the scheme because of tensions amongst the plotters. Plans to include Moussaoui were allegedly never completed because the al-Qaeda hierarchy allegedly had doubts about his reliability. In April 2005, Moussaoui pled guilty to conspiring to hijack planes, and to involvement with al-Qaeda, but he denies foreknowledge of the 9-11 attacks. His plea makes him eligible for the death penalty. At his sentencing trial, FBI agent Greg Jones testified that prior to the attacks, he urged his supervisor, Michael Maltbie, "to prevent Zacarias Moussaoui from flying a plane into the World Trade Center." Maltbie had refused to act on 70 requests from another agent, Harry Samit, to obtain a warrant to search Moussaoui's computer.[2]

Buildings surrounding the World Trade Center were heavily damaged by the debris and massive force of the falling twin towers.Other al-Qaeda members who allegedly may have attempted, but were unable, to take part in the attacks include Saeed al-Ghamdi (not to be confused with the successful hijacker of the same name), Mushabib al-Hamlan, Zakariyah Essabar, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, and Tawfiq bin Attash. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the attack's mastermind, wanted to remove at least one memberâ??Khalid al-Mihdharâ??from the operation, but he was overruled by Osama bin Laden.

According to Mohammed Afroze, a planned simultaneous attack in London on the Palace of Westminster and Tower Bridge was aborted at the last minute when the would-be hijackers, waiting to board the planes they were to hijack, saw the damage in the U.S., panicked, and fled.

Zacarias Moussaoui, at his sentencing hearing in March 2006, claimed that, upon the personal directive of Osama bin Laden, he and Richard Reid were due to hijack a fifth plane and fly it into the White House.[3] His own defence lawyers dismissed this as fantasy on the part of Moussaoui, saying that he was not an operative in Al Qaeda, but only a "hanger-on."[4] In February of 2006, President Bush revealed that an Al Qaeda plan to crash a plane into Library Tower in Los Angeles, also on the same day, had been foiled.[5] Similar attacks may also have been planned in New Delhi, Melbourne, and Montreal.

The U.S. government also initially claimed that the White House and Air Force One were also targeted, although the source and nature of these threats was not disclosed (BBC News, September 12, 2001, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537534.stm).

[edit]
Responsibility and motives
[edit]
Responsibility
Main article: Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks

The World Trade Center on fire. The plume of smoke escaping the towers would, upon the towers' ultimate collapse, go on to cover the entire lower portion of Manhattan as well as large sections of Brooklyn.The United States government determined (in part based on classified information) that al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden bear responsibility for the attacks. Bin Laden initially denied, but later admitted involvement in the incidents. He had earlier declared a holy war against the United States and this is seen as a motive for the 9/11 attacks.

On September 16, 2001, Osama bin Laden denied any involvement with the attacks by reading a statement which was broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel: "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation."[10] This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide. This was in stark contrast to an earlier Fatwa, signed by bin Laden and others, calling for the killing of American civilians in 1998.[11]

In November, 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in which a man who apparently is Osama bin Laden is talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden admits to planning the attacks.[12] The tape was broadcast on various news networks in December, 2001.

Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004 in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the U.S, and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because, "we are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation."

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States was formed by the United States government and was commonly called the 9-11 Commission. It released its report on July 22, 2004, concluding that the attacks were conceived and implemented by members of al-Qaeda.[13] The Commission stated that, "9/11 plotters eventually spent somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 to plan and conduct their attack," but that the specific origin of the funds used to execute the attacks remained unknown. To date, only peripheral figures have been tried or convicted in connection with the attacks.

[edit]
Motive
According to official U.S. government sources, the September 11th attacks were consistent with the mission statement of al-Qaeda. The group's involvement in the bombing of American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania is widely suspected, and al-Qaeda had declared responsibility for the 2000 USS Cole bombing in Yemen.

The motivation for this campaign was set out in a 1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Shaykh Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman (Amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh, Fazlur Rahman).[14] The fatwa lists three "crimes and sins committed by the Americans":

U.S. support of Israel.
U.S. occupation of the Arabian Peninsula.
U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people.
The fatwa states that the United States:

Plunders the resources of the Arabian Peninsula.
Dictates policy to the rulers of those countries.
Supports abusive regimes and monarchies in the Middle East, thereby oppressing their people.
Has military bases and installations upon the Arabian Peninsula, which violates the Muslim holy land, in order to threaten neighboring Muslim countries.
Intends thereby to create disunion between Muslim states, thus weakening them as a political force.
Supports Israel, and wishes to divert international attention from (and tacitly maintain) the occupation of Palestine.
The Gulf War and the ensuing sanctions against and bombing of Iraq by the United States, were cited, in 1998, as further proof of these allegations. To the discrete disapproval of moderate Muslims, the fatwa uses Islamic texts to exhort violent action against American military and citizenry until the alleged grievances are reversed: stating "ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries."

Aerial photo taken April 27, 2004 of the area of the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA (USGS)Statements of al-Qaeda recorded after 9/11 add weight to the U.S account of who was responsible for the attacks. In a 2004 video, apparently acknowledging responsibility for the attacks, bin Laden stated that he was motivated by the 1982 Lebanon War, which he held the U.S. partially responsible for. In the video, bin Laden also claims that he wants to, "restore freedom to our nation," to, "punish the aggressor in kind," and to inflict economic damage on America. He declared that a continuing objective of his holy war was to, "[bleed] America to the point of bankruptcy."[15] Bin Laden said, "We swore that America wouldn't live in security until we live it truly in Palestine. This showed the reality of America, which puts Israel's interest above its own people's interest. America won't get out of this crisis until it gets out of the Arabian Peninsula, and until it stops its support of Israel."

The 9/11 Commission Report determined that the animosity towards the United States felt by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the so-called, "principal architect" of the 9/11 attacks, stemmed "not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel." The same motivation has been imputed to the two pilots who flew into the WTC: Mohamed Atta was described by one Ralph Bodensteinâ??who traveled, worked and talked with himâ??as "most imbued actually about... U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region." Marwan al-Shehhi is said to have explained his humorless demeanor with the words: "How can you laugh when people are dying in Palestine?"

By contrast, the Bush administration says that Al-Qaeda was motivated by hatred of the freedom and democracy exemplified by the United States, and independent analysts say that one major Al-Qaeda motive is to encourage Islamic solidarity focused on a common enemy, and thus in the long term help pave the way for an Islamic world order

Gumby

04-30-2006, 08:21 PM

I can cut and paste too... it's not that hard bong... how many times do you have to be told that?? now find me a cut and paste of the collapse of the buildings... not some made up story about 19 poeple... who quoting what you just cut and pasted... ". ..., the BBC reported 14 days after the attack that 4 of the 19 were alive based upon the initial identification supplied by the FBI.[6] " Since which half have been found alive...

Next time don't cut and paste... actually form a thought before you type... cause you loaded anther post with crap...

But go ahead try again... find me your 'copy and paste' of how the collapses follow scientific behavor... please... or even try to find me an agrument telling the tale of the box cutters that doesn't link to a conspiracy theory that is more legit than yours...

and let's not try to use wikippedia... cause I just found your arguement... and it's not a scientific source if it claims two things is it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

Theories as to why members of the U. S. government would have allowed the attacks to occur, perpetrated the attacks, and/or obstructed the investigation generally involve one or more of the following:

* A simple move in a plan for a New World Order. This particular theory takes root in a David Rockefeller Statement to the United Nations Business Council in September 1994: We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order. [118] Another reference to a similar statement made by Zbigniew Brzezinski in his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives: As America becomes an increasingly multicultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstances of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat. See also above PNAC reference.
* To destroy embarrassing or incriminating materials located inside of World Trade Center Seven. According to an article in the December 7-13 2005 issue of The Village Voice, the CIA, the Secret Service, the New York City Office of Emergency Management, Salomon Smith Barney all had offices located in that building, and other government agencies had offices in the other 6 World Trade Center buildings (FBI, Customs, etc.)

* US Representative Cynthia McKinney led a Capitol Hill hearing on July 23, 2005 into "what warnings the Bush administration received before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001." Panelist and former CIA official Melvin Goodman was quoted as saying "Congresswoman McKinney is viewed as a contrarian and I hope someday her views will be considered conventional wisdom." Many 9/11 researchers testified at the hearing, including Michael Ruppert, Peter Dale Scott, Wayne Madsen and several others. [104]
* In a Zogby International poll commissioned by 911truth.org, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall believe the US Government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act." [105]
* The FOX TV series The Lone Gunmen aired their opening episode "Pilot" six months before 9/11 which depicted a secret U.S. government agency behind a plot to simulate a foreign terrorist airline attack (a Boeing 727 flying into 2 World Trade Center by a powerful computer via remote control) to further a larger political agenda.
* Between 1993 and 2000, Marvin Bush, President Bush's brother was a principal in a company that provided security for both The World Trade Center and United Airlines. According to its president CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down". This last statement has been used by some conspiracy theorists to say that the contract "expired" on September 11, 2001. Barbara Bush confirmed this theory in her book 'Reflections' also stating 9/11 was the day the contract expired. Mr. Bush was also a former director and now is an advisor to the board of directors to a firm HCC Insurance Holdings, Inc that had what it called a small participation in the World Trade Center property insurance coverage and some of the surrounding buildings. [106] Marvin Bush was on a subway under Wall Street when the attacks happened. [107]

President Bush was promoting the passage of his education plan at Emma E. Booker Elementary School on the morning of September 11th.

Conspiracy theorists have questioned the President's behavior after being told that the nation was under attack.[100] They think it's likely that he would have been taken to safety at once, presuming that he too would be a possible target of a terrorist attack. That he remained in the classroom for another 7-9 minutes is seen as an indication that his security staff was well aware of what was happening, and was therefore not worried.
[edit]

George Bush saw the first plane hit?

George Bush was asked a question by a child at a town hall meeting:

QUESTION: One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country, and another thing is that how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?

BUSH: Well... (APPLAUSE)

Thank you, Jordan (ph).

Well, Jordan (ph), you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my chief of staff, Andy Card -- actually I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I use to fly myself, and I said, "There's one terrible pilot." And I said, "It must have been a horrible accident."

But I was whisked off there -- I didn't have much time to think about it, and I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my chief who was sitting over here walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower. America's under attack."

Some have pointed out that George Bush could not have seen the first plane hit the tower live on television, as it was a surprise attack and no television station was covering that area when the first plane hit. The videotape of the attack was not presented to the general public until several hours after the attack. This quote has made some suggest that George Bush has access to footage the general public does not, especially about the September 11th attacks.[101], [102]. Others have suggested that the President's statement was, "a lie fabricated to justify his unwillingness to deal with the magnitude of the disaster that had stricken all Americans on September 11, 2001."[10

Gumby

04-30-2006, 08:27 PM

more from your source....

Claims cell phone calls were impossible

During the flight of United 93 passengers are said to have made a number of calls to both family and emergency personnel. It is argued by some that connecting a cell phone to a tower's signal would have been near to impossible from the air. Based on this information, some theorists suggest the calls were fabricated or never made at all.[citation needed]

* In 2003 a Canadian team conducted experiments to determine if cell phones could be used from civilian aircraft flying at cruising speeds and altitudes. [94] Their findings concluded the probability of a typical cell phone making a stable connection to a cell on the ground is roughly .006% from the altitude that Flight 93 was supposedly flying at at the time of the cell phone calls. Anecdotal evidence provided to the team by airline passengers in other parts of the US and the world corroborates their findings.

7 World Trade Center collapsed at 5:20 pm EDT in the evening of Sept 11, 2001.

Similar to the Towers One and Two theories, 9/11 researchers have proposed the idea Building Seven collapsed as the result of a controlled demolition. The basis for the demolition theory came from the visual observations of the collapse. Advocates for this theory will point to the speed and the near symmetrical fall of the structure. The building came down in just under seven seconds.

The collapse of WTC 7 was an event that baffled structural engineers. [54] Building Seven was not struck by an aircraft nor were the fires inside caused or sustained by jet fuel. [55] The common working hypothesis suggests Building 7 collapsed as the result of structural damage from the collapsing Towers in addition to prolonged fires throughout sustained by fuel stores for emergency generators. Further discussion of the intensity and severity of the fires is mentioned below. Engineers refer to this type of destruction as a "progressive collapse."

A kink or crimp near the center of the building is identical in appearance to many that have occurred when implosion professionals have made buildings collapse inwards to minimize damage of the surrounding structures.

* This observation appears to support the demolition idea which suggests that a carefully calculated fall took place. Although the collapse was not as tidy as sometimes thought; the building just to the north of WTC 7 took considerable damage during its collapse. [56]

It is alleged that the Twin Towers fell at close to free-fall speed, which is further alleged to be a characteristic of controlled demolition.[19] For example, Steven E. Jones claims the fall violates conservation of momentum[20]][21]. As evidence of controlled demolition, conspiracy theorists point to the use of words such as "bomb" or "explosion" by witnesses to describe the collapse of the towers.[22] [23] They also allege that no study has been done to ascertain the presence of explosive residues in Ground Zero or the released dust, though many environmental studies have been done on the particulate matter and dust released by the collapse (including by the DELTA group at UC Davis), and none have indicated the presence of explosive residue.[24] [25]. Furthermore, theorists allege that the collapse of WTC 1,2,and 7 are anomalies, since no steel hi-rise building has suffered a total collapse as the result of fire, before or since the 9-11 attack. The WTC towers burned for less than 102 min (WTC 1) and 56 minutes (WTC 2), during which both towers were stable after the impacts. These hi-rise fires are considered the most similar for comparative purposes: [26]

* the Caracas Tower (2004) - burned for more than 17 hours, spread to over 26 floors.
* One Meridian Plaza (1991) - burned for 18 hours, gutted 8 floors of the 38 floor building.
* First Interstate Bank (1988) - burned for 3 1/2 hours, gutted 4 floors of the 64 floor tower.
* 1 New York Plaza (1970) - burned for more than 6 hours.
* The Madrid Windsor Tower (2004) - burned for nearly 24 hours resulting in a partial collapse of the steel sections of the structure, which included concrete members. [27]

They allege that it is particularly relevant to WTC 7, which was not struck by planes and suffered only damage from falling debris from the collapse of WTC 1 and 2.

SHOULD I KEEP GOING??? or do you want to find another soucre??

Dr. VanNostrin

05-01-2006, 02:37 PM

Dr. VanNostrin

05-01-2006, 02:47 PM

By the way let me just say I am really enjoying this debate it has remained so civilized and everyone's intelligence is just making this a really interesting argument to take place in. Everyone has information that is quite concrete and since such accurate research has been done, none of the debate has been about people's sources, just opinions. All in all these debates are what I log on for I hope some of you are feeling the same way about a civilized debate...and I recall reading some shit that potheads can't participate in an intelligent conversation, that were are put in the mindstate of a 6-year old when we are high. Yeah right, fuck em if they don't chief pass it to em if they do!

Bong30

05-01-2006, 02:52 PM

Gumby

05-01-2006, 03:51 PM

But were any of those caused by a plane? What you have to understand is that jet fuel burns at a much higher temperature than the gas you put in your car. It won't even ignite at the minimal temp regular gas would, so that means you have an extra hot fire blazing. I recall hearing the temps inside were about 2,000 degrees, enough to soften the steel supports. After long enough exposure to high enough temps, the weight on top of those beams is going to overcome the strength of the softened beams and you have a collapse. When the first plane crashed, liquid, burning jet fuel fell into the elevator shaft of the building and was weakening the outer main supports with the same high temperatures. I understand how some of you think that if anything collapsed it should be the area above the plane crash, not everything below. But none of us are structural engineers and all we have is the differing statements by some who say this shouldn't have happened and some who say that when you take all these things into consideration, it's easy to see why they fell.

building 7 wasn't hit by a plane and fell... and yes those buildings were hit with planes... and the fuel would have burnt very quickly.... it's the explosion you see when the planes first hit the building... that's the fuel... metal, mainly steel needs to be exposed to heat for a prolonged amount of time. That why you can't melt it and why they need mills... that's why it is used in construciton... because it doesn't melt in fire... STEEL DOESN"T MELT IN FIRE... GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD... SCIENCE DOESN'T ALLOW IT.... YOU LEARN THAT IN HIGHSCHOOL... the wouldn't build building out of steel if it melted in fires... that's stupid... and the main reason why they invented and use steel, cause it doesn't melt in a fire...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_fire.html

In any case the fires were too far up to be accessible so at no point were the blazing fires in any amount of conrol by firefighters and for me it is perfectly understandable why the towers fell - extreme heat, time, and gravity....steel can still melt you know, how the hell do you think they make shit out of steel in the first place?

The New York Times revealed the existence of a 78-minute audiotape of radio transmissions of the New York Fire Department (FDNY), which proves that at least two firefighters reached the 78th floor sky lobby of the South Tower. 1
Chief Oreo Palmer radioed from the 78th floor of the South Tower.

For over a year the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey with the blessing of the U.S. Justice Department refused to release the contents of the tape.

Seven minutes before the collapse, battalion chief Palmer is heard to say "Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines." The widow of Chief Palmer was allowed to hear the tape before excerpts were released by the Times
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/audiotape.html

too far up?? to me it sounds like they were there and ready to work at putting them out... not the 3000 degree raging inferno it took to bring a 110 story building to the groud... I just wonder why it took them 4 yeras to release that the firefighters made it to the 78th floor and only need 'two lines' to knock it down... 7 MINUTES BEFORE THE WHOLE THING FALLS?? so seven minutes is long enough to cause a fire to spread across a building and melt the steel in the building?? think for once just think....

[/QUOTE]
Any metal is melleable, meaning it has bendable properties. The higher the temp the easier it will be to bend. You can't just say "well I took a lighter to a paper clip and it didn't melt, so how can steel melt?" I'll tell you how - because your bic lighter doesn't reach 2,000 degrees and burning jet fuel does[/QUOTE]

no fire doesn't reach 2,000 degrees.... you need optimum conditions for that... that's why they make steel mills and why they are so hot... don't just try a Bic lighter... get a steel grill... buy fucking airline fuel if you want... put in paper, pens, office crap, computers, concreate... stuff in a building... see if the steel melts... it can't not cause a Bic doesn't get to 2,000 degree but fire doesn't... the black smoke that you can see coming out of the building shows the temperatures didn't get that hot... black smoke in a fire means that it is being fueled by carbon based material and there wasn't enough pure oxygen to get the temps up that high... you learn that in high school chem... am I the only one who learned anything in science class?? 2,000 is fucking hot... really fucking hot... it's not easy to get that temp much less maintain it... and I assured you a plane flying into a building didn't do it...

http://septembereleventh.org/documents/rodgwtcpdf.pdf