pH problems - What to avoid?

[elcheapo]

What products/components commonly used in a hydro system cause the pH to spike?
What are your experiences?
What should you avoid or not do?

My understanding is that food grade plastics are better. And I've noticed a lot of people use Rubbermaid tubs. Unfortunately, where I live that brand is not available.

There are currently no plants in my new setup, but after adding tap water at around 5.5 (yellow) to the system and running it for a few days it has a ph of at least 8 (blue). My first thoughts are that the fly screen is to blame. I washed it in a weak bleach solution then rinsed very well prior to use. And yes, I am aware that bleach is very alkaline.

I'm currently running a test to see if the problem lies with the tubs, or the fly screen I acquired to prevent medium loss. The medium is perlite.
Itâ??s no big deal if I have to change it, as none of the materials in question have cost me anything so far. And obviously I'd rather get a stable pH prior to use. Is there something else that could be causing this problem? Any ideas on preventing medium leakage from pots using something pH stable? I will probably get new pots and drill my own drainage holes if the fly screen turns out to be the problem.

Gen, did you have any problems using those stockings to hold the root ball? Please advise as it seemed like a great idea.

Thanks to all.

[sandman1982]

My friend is currently having a similar problem. He is using a drip system with grodan stonewool grow cubes. He will have the pH just right and not 4-5 hours later its back up to over 7.5-8.5. He is getting irritated because he knows this is stunting his plants growth.

[Gen]

The nylon stockings knee highs don't change the ph. The roots grew out of them. They would work to contain the medium. Why would the screen material change the ph? Are you using lucas formula? I ph down with seltzer water once a day till it reads below 6. My ph does not spike anymore since I only use seltzer. The ph will read 6.6 typically after a day. Once I put a pinch of baking soda to ph up, but don't do that anymore. Not necessary. If the ph falls below 5.0 in a few hours it goes up pretty quickly.

I had alot of ph problems when I first started. I used urine for ferts since I read of someone on overgrow doing a drip system with rockwool cubes. My ph would spike up to 8 frequently and I put a ton of vinegar to bring it down. I now only use CO2 to adjust ph and have had no problems since. When my ph was spiking I had slimy roots 3 times. Slimy roots means lack of oxygen.
Try the CO2 it works. Read my post on co2 and ph.

[Zandor]

Hydroponic nutrients have a buffer built in to them that helps stabilize the Ph. You need a minimum of 10 gallons of proper mixed nutrients with the proper water and you still will adjust your Ph twice a day minimum.

If you are using tap water do you let it sit out for 24 hours so the chorine evaporates? Is your water hard? If your water is hard are you using micro for hard water? Or are you using hard water nutrients? The buffers are different with hard water VS. RO water.

How are you using the fly screen again?

The tubs are not the problem; as long as you washed them out. A 5% bleach solution is fine and safe to use to disinfect the inside of the tub and all your equipment.

The Ph will change all the time as will the TDS from what the plant uses up and discards back into the res.

The swing your friend is having is something else. He may have a problem with a plant or too. Smell the roots and see if you have problems with them. If there is an odor then you have a problem with that plant.

[Jdzzl03]

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=56903

I had the same problems awhile back. This should help

[elcheapo]

Thanks for the replies lads.

Gen, I don't know if I just dreamt it or read somewhere about the fly screen being unstable. But for some reason the idea just stuck with me. I could be confused with them mentioning to be careful with what sort of glue to fix it in with. Also, no I'm not using the Lucas formula. This was going to be an attempt to go from seed in perlite all while in their final home. Therefore no nutes are being added yet. Thanks for the reference to your co2 and pH thread. Was a good read and has given me some more ideas.

Zandor, during my first hydro grow/experiment, sometimes I let the tap water sit out other times it was flushed straight from the tap and filled back up with cold fresh tap water and nutrient mix. I know that is bad, but never noticed any ill effects. The plant actually seemed to grow well over the next couple of days. I'm starting to think that it grew well because it was getting a fresh mix with a better pH level. The setup also may have been more pH stable as I used an already rooted clone which allowed me to pounce on it with nutrients quite quickly. Thanks for that tip too. Your posts are very informative. I would have treated it like a seedling otherwise.
Not sure how hard the water is. I think its actually fairly good water. From what I read on their website anyway. I currently don't have any methods/equipment to test this. My nutrients are garbage too. But maybe they could have contributed to a more balanced pH? I never actually tested the pH of the water in the small reservoir of the little setup. I only tested what I was adding. Nutrient and water mix was changed every week. But as it was quite small, the plant drunk it very fast. I then went by eye for the rest of the week in regards to topping up with a more diluted mix. I could get away with leaving it for a week in the early stages of growth. During flowering it outgrew its pot and was drinking the entire mix within 2-3 12hr light cycles, depending how warm the environment was. To give you an idea it was pretty much like an auto pot type setup with a hint of DWC.
In the new setup, I'm using the fly screen as the holes in my pots were too large and it was an attempt to prevent perlite from spilling out. I would have gotten better pots but these fit the new setup perfectly. eg. to within 5ml. Thanks for the bleach idea btw, I got that one from you too. Made me feel a lot better about the overall cleanliness of equipment.
What I'm starting to gather is that I fluked my first attempt. And that the pH somehow didn't vary to the point that caused the plant to suffer badly.
In that trial/experimental grow, I vegâ??d and begun flowering with a 23watt 6500K CFL. Changed it out for a 48watt 5000K CFL, then added a 48watt 3000K CFL in the last couple of weeks. Therefore most of the flowering was done with only a 48watt 5000K CFL and the last few weeks a total of 96Watts with the mixed spectrums. I did a lot of things wrong but managed to harvest much more than I expected. Far better quality and quantity than the previous soil grow. Approximately 1.8oz of well flushed bone dry buds, plus the customary few grams that disappear before weighing. :) Fair enough they aren't the tightest nuggets I've seen, but they have been dried without any compressing/handling. Even taking into account the full 96Watts of CFL, that's still 0.55grams per watt!
I have taken pictures of the entire grow and will post a start to finish thread soon with all the details and images. I would've started the log during the experiment but had no idea it would work out in the end.

Please don't laugh too hard at me because I'm still quite a newbie. I also did this experiment with the possibility of replicating and improving the procedures while under 288Watts of CFLs. The 96Watt setup is probably all I need, but I can get away with 300Watts in the spare room without suspicion or modifications. I understand if I get a cold shoulder with advice because I am sort of going against the grain. But I was hoping to dial in a fairly simple setup that could help introduce more soil growers to the beauty of hydroponics. Itâ??s much more fun thatâ??s for sure.

Any further questions or advice are welcomed.

[latewood]

My friend is currently having a similar problem. He is using a drip system with grodan stonewool grow cubes. He will have the pH just right and not 4-5 hours later its back up to over 7.5-8.5. He is getting irritated because he knows this is stunting his plants growth.Most likely, your friend did not ph his rockwool before using it. that is a common mistake using rockwool...If he did... Then: Does he use tap water?
distilled/ROwater?...Is he using a professional PH up/down product, or home kitchen PH remedy's...i.e. vinegar, lemon juice, pickle juice?

this info is essential to get an informed opinion. lw

[latewood]

something I learned from another member here a while back (britewire, I think)...florakleen is an excellent cleaner.

I now soak (24 hrs.) my hydroton in Florakleen...It removes/neutralizes all salts in your medium.
It also works great to clean everything...a quick spritz down and wipe, you are ready to go...add a squeeze of lemon..."pledge for plants". Just kidding, lol No lemon.

Really though, I have had a healthier grow without a doubt, since using Florakleen to; Clean

When I clean up tubs, implements or tools:
I rinse thoroughly with hot sprayed water...
wash out with Clear Dawn w/bleach...
Then I spray thoroughly, again...
I dilute florakleen as per manufacturer's intruction's, and soak for 24 hours.

I do this for my hydroton and I am experimenting with cleaning my large trays of perlite. I use the large Foxfarm perlite, it is about 4x the size of SchultZ(walmart) perlite.
so, I though, what the hell...wash it rinse it clean it, place clones in it! I'll post results in Sneakpeek thread at later date. Hope this helps. lw

[elcheapo]

I've run the tests to determine if the fly screen or tubs were causing the problem. I added a few litres of pH 7 water to an empty tub and left to sit out. Checked it a few days later. pH looks the same. So I added the fly screen to the tub. Left it for another few days. pH still looks the same.
Conclusion - I was tripping.

Could light exposure or aeration have caused the pH to go up?

I'm currently abandoning any attempts to grow from seed in this setup. I plan to germinate and grow the seedling stage in styro cups with a 50/50 soil/perlite mix. I will then either transplant or take cuttings for the hydro system.

Also thinking of changing to a small DWC setup using 1.3 Gal buckets. Bit risky considering this would be an untested system. I either do this or attempt to lightproof the existing setup. Going with DWC sounds like more fun and will probably be easier to maintain than the current system once light proofing is added.
Questions - Would I need to wash/flush the DWC buckets very often or at all? Sounds like a lot of work lifting all the roots out once a week. I also plan to incorporate a siphoning tube. (BTW this would be a non recirculating system).
Also, any downsides to using a bubbling bucket type system? Is the bubbling loud? Would a standard twin outlet air pump sufficiently aerate 2 x 1.3 Gal buckets? Can the bubbles damage the roots? (I'm planning on using bendable/flexible bubble tubes rather than air stones.)

L-dubbya, Gen, Z - any input would be greatly appreciated.

[elcheapo]

Anyone?

[Gen]

I use hydrogen peroxide to clean my used containers. It's cheap. Pour a small amount in and swish around. No odor. You can also use it straight to rinse algea off roots. Won't hurt the plant. I suspect florakleen has H202 as the main ingredient.

I use the flexible air bubblers from walmart and the dual outlet air pump. So far no blockage. What's nice about the air pump is one side will still work even if the other side doesn't have anything hooked to it. No, the bubbler will not hurt roots. I tried using a pond pump and ended up destroying roots, that's why I had to go to the nylon stockings for protection.

So by having alot of failures, you will become a better grower. Yes, you can use smaller containers. I have clones floating in a kitty litter pan. Hydro is fun, but I still grow in soil until I can get all the bugs out of hydro.

Too bad overgrow is gone. Alot of pictures doing just what you described.

[mountainman]

something I learned from another member here a while back (britewire, I think)...florakleen is an excellent cleaner.

I now soak (24 hrs.) my hydroton in Florakleen...It removes/neutralizes all salts in your medium.
It also works great to clean everything...a quick spritz down and wipe, you are ready to go...add a squeeze of lemon..."pledge for plants". Just kidding, lol No lemon.

Really though, I have had a healthier grow without a doubt, since using Florakleen to; Clean

When I clean up tubs, implements or tools:
I rinse thoroughly with hot sprayed water...
wash out with Clear Dawn w/bleach...
Then I spray thoroughly, again...
I dilute florakleen as per manufacturer's intruction's, and soak for 24 hours.

I do this for my hydroton and I am experimenting with cleaning my large trays of perlite. I use the large Foxfarm perlite, it is about 4x the size of SchultZ(walmart) perlite.
so, I though, what the hell...wash it rinse it clean it, place clones in it! I'll post results in Sneakpeek thread at later date. Hope this helps. lw


Oh yeah, wasn't his post about "No longer be embarassed by dirty balls!" ?

[elcheapo]

Thanks Gen.
H202 is great stuff but care should be taken as it's a very powerful oxidising agent, even in low percentage solutions.

[Gen]

the h2o2 at the drugstore is 3%. there is a whole philosophy of medicine where people are drinking 35% h202. Chlorine gas is very toxic.

[elcheapo]

Definitely don't drink a 35% solution of H202. It will most likely kill you. I am fairly well researched on Hydrogen peroxide. I have also used it in other non growing related experiments.
Some say it's a miracle cure, others say it's a snake oil. I have read about people using diluted solutions through an inhaler to help clean and oxygenate the lungs. Also others that involve oral consumption, direct injection and topical therapy. The only known deaths have occurred from people inadvertently drinking a 30%+ solution thinking it was water.
There aren't a lot of studies in regards to its benefits and side effects as no drug companies can profit from it.
Hydrogen peroxide is man made but it is also formed in the environment and is present in rain water.
It has been said that oral consumption breaks down the H202 in the stomach causing problems rather than benefits.
I recommended that you only use an extremely diluted solution of food grade H202. The 3% Drugstore type solutions contain undesirable stabilizers.
Here is a link with more detail :- http://educate-yourself.org/cancer/benefitsofhydrogenperozide17jul03.shtml
This website seems to be pro H202. There are many that aren't.

[latewood]

h2o2 does not remove/flush the mineral salts...h2o2 destroys all organic bacteria good/bad though.

Gen, I love ya darlin', but If florakleen was h2o2, I would only spend the 3 dollars, also!

and yes, bleach is chlorine which is a salt, also...

so like I said above...I clean with the detergent bleach, just to get rid of all the nasty stuff...then I florakleen* it and it is fresh. no salts...no micro-organisms!

* you can substitute any pro flushing agent on the market.
Let's face it...All flushings agents do what? lw

[Gen]

late, love you too. But plain ole water flushes salts/minerals too.

As far as taking h202 these people are already sick.

[latewood]

got a couple emails today...looks like I will be coughing up strawberry's with the widow soon.

yeah i know you can flush with water, but this stuff really works. (It actually flushes plants, very well in 2-3 days)

I always ended up with salt build-up after a couple of grows...you could see it.
Since using the florakleen, I have noticed no residual salt build-up, and My ph levels have been so consistent...That, at times, I have questioned whether or not my milwaukee (ole faithful) ph meter had taken a dump on me stuck at 5.8.

Your turn! LOL