Identifiy the problem

[marx2k]

~800 PPM CalMag + FloraNova Grow
PH @ 5.6-5.8 at all times
-- Skunk #1
-- These are clones under @ a little over two weeks of vegging - I did find algae in the res, so I changed nute solutions last night
-- They are under 18/6 cycle
-- Plants are getting progressively worse as time goes by. This seems to mainly effect the fan leaves...

[Chris Seekins]

Damn that was a quick lock up. Good to know what to look for.

[Kush Over]

Jesus H.

Looks like a nutrient burn, or even heavy pH fluctuation but you say it's between 5.6 and 5.8.

Hm.

[Chris Seekins]

It looks to me like a calcium defecincy do to lock up.

[marx2k]

I'm actually really glad you did catch that, Kush. There has been some heavy pH fluctuation. I'm trying to keep it steady and it has been steady within the past week or so. I'm hoping the problem STOPS. I doubt it is nutrient burn as the nute levels have been at 600ppm MAX since the beginning. I dont think 600ppm is high at all for clones. Again, I could be totally off. But even as the nute levels have gone down from topping off, it still continued to effect the plant. Seems to effect mainly the older leaves. I *really* hope it's just pH fluctuation.

[Gen]

Are you spraying with anything?

[marx2k]

Not at all, Gen. It does look like that though, I must say. I wish it were the case. :)

[GluteusMaximus]

Is there any trace of this spotting on the new growth? The reason I ask is it appears that you may have had a problem when those leaves were young and it's just now showing the damage.

Because my grow room was behind schedule, I had to leave my seedlings in peat pots a little longer than I wanted to. They were slightly deprived of nutes during that time and I had sprayed the leaves with water while they were getting light (a real "no no") and some began to show those very same symptoms especially after a few days passed. The leaves began to grow bigger and the damage from the prior lack of nutes and sunburn was more evident, however, the new growth was in good shape. Fortunately I had other plants growing in the same nutrients that were showing no signs of deficiency so I knew it was not my brew causing the problem.

I noticed you have a plant to the lower left of the one displayed that looks exactly like one that I have. The totally destroyed leaf that is spotted and drying up. My plant that is exhibiting this same symptom in it's lower leaves is recovering very slowly, but the plants that grew right next to it are thriving. I discovered that the plant responded better when I treated it like it was still a seedling. Since it's sick, I figured that it was unable to uptake the nutes at the strength an otherwise healthy plant could. So I lowered the ppm to 500 and backed off the watering frequency and moved it away from the light. Two days later the new growth on the sick plant began to perk up and it's been improving ever since. Since the lower leaves were damaged severely, I knew it was just a matter of time before they dried up, so it was my intention to get it's new leaves to grow as soon as possible.

If we could only teach these plants to talk, they'd make our jobs so much easier!

GM

[GluteusMaximus]

I should also add that your leaf appears to be magnesium deficient perhaps caused by too much calcium.

GM

[GluteusMaximus]

OK, I'll quit babbling I swear...but first this.....are you using reverse osmosis filtered water? If you aren't, then you may have too much calcium using tap water with the calmag+.

That's all for now, I promise

[Gen]

good points gluteous.

[Zandor]

~800 PPM CalMag + FloraNova Grow
PH @ 5.6-5.8 at all times
-- Skunk #1
-- These are clones under @ a little over two weeks of vegging - I did find algae in the res, so I changed nute solutions last night
-- They are under 18/6 cycle
-- Plants are getting progressively worse as time goes by. This seems to mainly effect the fan leaves...

What does the underside of that leaf look like? Have you looked at it under a 10x to 30x microscope yet?

You may want to do that.

[marx2k]

Gluteus, I am using RO water and am adding CalMag - the plants looked like crap before the CalMag so Im hoping the CalMag will help it out.

Zandor, what am I looking for? Are you thinking it's some sort of pest? What should I look for?

[GluteusMaximus]

....the plants looked like crap before the CalMag so Im hoping the CalMag will help it out.

This tells me that you may be witnessing the results from earlier damage which may already be corrected. The leaf you posted may have incurred the damage back when you didn't have the calmag in your receipe and it's now more obvious since the leaf grew bigger.

What does the rest of the plant look like? Is the new growth showing any signs of spotting? What is your watering frequency? How tall are these plants?.... 800 ppm may be a bit high for a small plant that is trying to recover from an earlier deficiency.

GM

[marx2k]

It seems that as soon as the leaves get to about an inch, the spotting starts on the leaf. It's only been a few days since I changed the res/put in the calmag, so I have to see wether it's helping. This is a DWC system so it's constantly in water. The plants aren't that small anymore. At this point they're about 9-10" tall.

The water temps do get to about 77 before lights out, though. This should be fixed by the time I go to 12/12 (if I go to 12/12) due to the glass shield on the 400HPS reflector and the HPS causes less heat anyway.

As I said, I did have an algae problem. I guess light did get into the water somehow and hopefully it is fixed now. Maybe the algae wasn't letting the nutes get into the roots?

[Chris Seekins]

When the leaves get to about an inch they lose alot of growth cells or auxins. Thrive alive may help replenish and fight off the spoting.

[marx2k]

What is in thrive alive that would help this? I figured GH FloraNova and CalMag should be plenty?

[Chris Seekins]

auxins. New growths have the most growth cells called auxins. Since the leaves and growth rich with auxins do not show signs of sickness I figure it may help. What do you think.

Basically auxins are like fuel for DNA regeneration and are produced from tryptophans

[marx2k]

I think I want to stay away from anything more than what's needed by most everyone else. Usually that's GH FloraNova + CalMag in the case of mine being RO water.

I *did* look at both sides of an affected leaf with a microscope and show no signs of any pests, unless it's a fungus.

I seriously hopes it goes away. And here, I thought it was e-z to go hydro. I wonder if this first attempt is atypical? I mean, everything seems to have gotten into the right range... PPM, PH, etc - also, as I said, the temps have been getting up to 77, 78F in the res. If those temps keep up, I wonder if that will seriously affect the plants.

I have an AC unit in there but I think it needs a fron recharge or something. It's only blowing in the air from the outside without much if any temp change.

[Zandor]

Well then you can cross one problem off your list then and feel safe. What did you say your Ph was?

[marx2k]

i am keeping it steady now at 5.6 to 6-- I drop it down to 5.6 and let it climb naturally to 6, then drop it back down to 5.6.

One of the two plants climbed to 1070 ppm overnight from 800 and to 6.8 ph from 5.8 last night. Im topping up with ro water in hopes to drop the ppm and I am also correcting the pH.


Before the plants get the yellow and then the rust spots, the leaves get these shiny spots that turn into yellow that turn into rust spots. Strange.
I also think temps are becoming an issue. The temps in my part of the country are climbing. I may not be able to see this project through to the end. May have to wait for next winter to set in :(

[Chris Seekins]

How does the ppm raise up? I think it has to do with calmag. ph will cause more of a yellowing from my knowledge

[GluteusMaximus]

I think you'll find that once everything is dialed in, hydro is easy and fun. You're just in the learning curve at the moment with a couple set backs, no biggie, happens to everyone eventually.

Lets go right down the list. I'm sure you can get this corrected before you lose your crop.

Fix that temp! Don't let the reservoir get above 70F if possible. If you have no way of cooling down the res, try filling a couple gallon milk jugs with RO water spiked with 1ml of PH down in each jug then freeze them. Put those frozen jugs (with the lid off) inside the reservoir. This won't cure the res/temp issue, but it will help stabilize it during long hot periods and as the water in the jugs melt, it will help dilute your brew and it will help adjust your ph slightly.

Keep that PH stable too. I would make damn sure that your ph tester is accurate and keep it as close to 5.8 as possible. DO NOT let it hit 7 or above. Don't push it too far down allowing it to climb again either, that becomes too unstable. Keep it at 5.8 even if you have to wake up in the middle of the night to adjust it. Use only a pro PH down (like GH PH down). They're more capable of stabilizing PH than vinegar.

Make sure you have a good exhaust fan pulling air out from the top of the room. Keep your room at 80F or below if possible. Plants can tolerate temps up to 90F but prefer around 80. Add a circulating fan as well so you don't get hot spots in the room. Have the circulating fan blowing between the plants and the lights (don't put the fan right on the plants).

In my opinion, your ppm is too high. A sick and suffering plant only 10" high probably can't take advantage of that much nutrients. When my plants were exhibiting those characteristics, I put only PH adjusted water in the res and flushed the plants (3 water cycles on a flood and drain) then made a new brew. DO NOT put the full strength of nutes in the reservoir when you make a new brew. Instead, add 1/3 of your brew to the res water, next day....add 1/3 more with water...next day....add final 1/3 with water to top off. This way you introduce the nutes more gradually to the roots/plants avoiding burn and shock.

If the light is too close to the plant, back it off. The heat and light might also be more than the plant can tolerate in its current condition.

Finally, as far as the nutes go, I would abandon your current batch and start over....a quick flush with PH adjusted RO water only for about a day. Then after flush, use fresh RO water having zero ppm, add your calmag+ first and bring your ppm up to 50 taking notice of how much calmag+ it took to reach 50ppm. (Tap water is usually around 140, which will be the 3rd day target for the calmag). Then add your nutes bringing the ppm up to a total of 300 the first day. Day 2.... add as much calmag+ as you did the prior day then add more nutes on day 2 bringing it up to a total of 450ppm and on day 3 add as much calmag + as on first day and top with nutes bringing it up to 650ppm. Run that for a week and when you notice a brighter green in the new growth (not yellowing), then you know you're on your way to recovery. Next water change, use the same technique with higher values.

When you said you had shiny spots on the leaves, I assumed that these shiny spots are heavy dark, or heavy bright green in color. This is what I've witnessed in cases of over fertilizing. The shiny spots soon turn patchy and eventually turn to rust. I also found that a pale light green color usually indicates it's time to up the nitrogen.

I will finish by saying I am NOT a hydro expert by any means. I am on my first hydro grow, however, my experience in simple plant health and your description of your situation suggests that you are working your plants too hard.

In my opinion, it's better to back off and not push a sick plant. It will recover if you nurse it, then you can push it after recovery.

GM

[Zandor]

The PPM will change. The plants take nutrients and deposit others so the PPM number is only good for the time you mixed it. Once it's been through the plant cycle it will change. How often do you do a full water rez change?

[Gen]

ok, from the ic forum, what is your ph? For hydro ph should be 5-6, because this is when all the nutes are available to the plant. You probably have a phosphorus deficiency if this occurs during flowering or zinc deficiency during vegetative growth. Since this looks like veg cycle is't zinc.

[marx2k]

Gen, that was quite a lengthy and helpful post you produced there. I am very thankful of it. I think that since the only means I have of controlling indoor temps are with low outdoor temps, this batch will not make it because it will be flowering when temps are in the 90's outside. This is a closed room with the only venting out being an air conditioner in a blacked out window. The air conditioner doesn't work :/ The only thing I can think of doing is having the hydro shop make my reflector air cooled and vent that air out through the air conditioner grille?? That is an option although right now I am dirt poor so I may have to only go with the means already available to me. For my next batch, I will definately DEFINATELY use that process you mentioned above. It is one of the more descriptive processes for dialing in a hydro grow that I've seen! I like it, and thank you.

I am not overly sad as I still have enough lifesaver to last me till next winter from my LAST grow (I barely smoke and I only grow for myself. This is more of a hobby than anything else) and with the summer brings in my OTHER hobby... MYCOLOGY!!!! :)

[GluteusMaximus]

I do all the work.... Gen gets all the credit.:rolleyes:

Just a thought, some air conditioners have fans that blow both directions. If yours can be reversed, maybe you could exhaust the air to the outdoors. Or maybe you could take the air conditioner apart and simply turn the fan blade around on the motor shaft thus making it blow outside instead of inside.

Hate to see you give up.

GM

[marx2k]

Ah, it's time well spent learning, Gluteus. :) And as I am under no pressure to make some superyield at the moment, I'll continue learning from this grow.

Thanks for the help, though, Gluteus! Always appreciated.

My one other question. I purchased a Bake-A-Round cooltube for my 400W HPS bulb. I have a SunSystem 400W HPS Ballast. The ballast connects to the reflector. At the reflector end, there is a box that the black wire runs into and then theres the bulb. I took everything apart today to see how it works and the box that's attached to the ballast is just an easy circuit box. (I've included a pic of it)

With that, that will not fit into a cooltube. I'm wondering what I need from HomeDepot in order to make it work. I don't have to take this apart as I have another ballast I can use the wire assembly with. But I need a link to or a list of parts I will need from Home Depot including a socket assembly (the socket the bulb screws into) in order to make it work in cooltube fashion.

There was once a GREAT link on this on OG but... well... yeah :(

I've also seen some links on here but they haven't shown what I need to know in detail or they look somewhat flimsy.

Any help on this or a point in the right direction would be of help.

[marx2k]

Also, is this root rot? Algae? Or is it normal crap from the nutes?

The roots are neither slimy nor are they weak. The stuff comes off in amber/brown chunks and the roots seem very white underneath.

[Garden Knowm]

MARx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is very very bad...
feel the roots .. do they feel slimy and do they break easy.....?

Now you have a serious problem.. that very very few people recover from..

1. you will need to keep ALL debri out of you reservor... dead debri in the reservor will consume O2 and make the problem worse..

2. you need to gently pull away all dead roots from the plant....

3.. you need to add Hydrogen peroxide to your water..

4. THE saving grace of your grow will be adding airstones to you reservor, as many as you can...NOW......AND

5. lowering the water temperature ASAP... get the temp between 65 and 68 degrees


There are really only 2 aspects to growing.. to be a GOOD grower..
1. PH balance!!!!!
2. oxygen


because we grow indoors.. temperature, bugs, humidity, etc have become factors.. BUT if you can give your plants adequate O2 and a the proper PH.. you are one level awAy from the GREATS!!!!!! We can talk about the LEGENDS some ther time..

GOOD LUCK..

you will need IT

i send all the LOVE in the universe --- love is you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[marx2k]

See, the roots are not slimy and they do not break away dead. Which is why I'm even bothering to ask wether that IS root rot, because if they were simy and if they did die away, I wouldn't even ask :)

If it is root-rot, I know why it's there (temps). But it doesn't seem characteristic of the rot.

[marx2k]

I also desperately want to know by tomorrow what to get at home depot for the cooltube setup. I need to know the name of the ceramic socket that the bulb screws into, mainly. What would I ask the Home Depot geek for? And do they differ in size for HPS, MH and Mercury Vapor? Every time I go to this Home Depot, they're always suspicious. And it's not like I go in there blazed or wearing '420' patches or anything. i.e., I don't swerve in there lettin' my freak flag fly. So I don't want to ask anything like "How do I get a 400 watt HPS bulb into a cooltube with the stuff you have here?" - I want to ask for specific parts. Names of brackets, sizes, etc. I already have a 4" inline duct fan from there from a while back. And I know I need flexible 4" duct tubing, 4" metal sleeve for the cooltube... but what else? And do I need special drill bits to drill through the metal sleeve for the bracket placement?

And especially, what is the name of the bulb socket assembly?

[Garden Knowm]

Mark..
i really hope you are right..
I am looking closely at your pictures..

they look slimy.. LOL the rots dont look correct.


:)

[Gen]

marx2k, do a search on this website, zandor and mellowyellow both posted detailed pictures and explanations on how to make a cool tube.

[Zandor]

Ok first the roots.....Smell them if it does not stink then it's not rot. From what you are saying then you are correct about it being colored by the nutrients. You can add some H²O² (proxide) to your water 5-10 ml per gallon with each water change. That will bring back the white for you.

As for the cool tube.....You will need a MOG socket (they don't sell them at HD) but most hydro stores or electrical wholesalers do. ) They make cash sales over the counter. Good place to get bulbs too btw.
From HD you get:
2 4" vent metal collars
2 4" hose clamps
1 Roll of window foam weather seal tape (thin)
1 4â?� angle bracket
1 roll of metal silver foil tape
Either pop rivets or small nuts & bolts to assemble.
(x)ft of 12 gage 3 wire extension cord
That will make one unit.

[GluteusMaximus]

From what I see of the roots, that is discoloration caused by the calmag+. The roots themselves look healthy above and below the parts that are tinted brown, however, keep an eye on them, you've got all the right conditions for root rot so you should avoid that at all costs.

Additionally, Zandor is probably the best qualified to give advice. I would recommend you listen to him more than the rest of us :)

GM

[Zandor]

calmag has never colored my roots that I have noticed. Micro does and bloom enhancers do for sure. But then again I do use H²O² as a normal additive a few times a week and that's why maybe I don't notice calmag changes the color of the roots. But by checking for smell that's the best way to know if it's a problem or not.

[GluteusMaximus]

Yeah, I noticed after I started adding calmag that I was getting the brown tint that I didn't get before. I assumed it was the calmag, but without actually testing this theory, I can't be absolutely positive that it's not the micro. I did notice that there is some "blobs" of discoloration that I don't recognize. Mine were just tinted, didn't show any signs of "blobs"

Either case, the brown tint doesn't look quite like root rot. I've seen root rot many times and it appears to cover most of the lower portion of the root system and appears more mucky/slimey than these roots.

I'm probably doing more harm than good from this point on. I could have him chasing a wild goose with my hydro experience. I'll leave this to the pro's to chime in on.

GM

[Zandor]

Ok Marx2k I made a FAQ on a DIY Cool Tube. If you have questions please start a new thread.

[latewood]

How does the ppm raise up? I think it has to do with calmag. ph will cause more of a yellowing from my knowledgedefinitely not; I use calmag+ and I have never had a more stable rez...In fact, I believe it is the stability of the minerals replenished by calmag+ that gives me this stability. lw:cool:

[Gen]

the ph rises due to uptake of CO2. The water is the limiting factor. The plants do not discharge into the water.

[marx2k]

In the last 2 days the plants have stabilized (stopped turning crappy colors and spotting and dying) and have begun rapid growth again. On top as well as on the bottom. The PPM's have stabilized at around 800 for 1 plant and 1060 on another. So far, both are taking those nutes like little champs. The PH on both have stabilized at 5.7 on one plant and 5.8 on another. The hotter it gets, the higher the pH seems to go. Right now the rez's are at 73.4F and have been all night (It's a chilly night outside) and everything is going smooth. I now know I will NOT be able to see these flower as the heat outside is going to go nuts. I will take a clone from the better of the two plants and mother the clone through the summer and go full steam ahead once temps outside go down after the summer to at most 60. By then I will have the cooltube set up and will be ready for a full-on project.

This also gave me a chance to try these 5" round airstones. They seem to work real well but I want MORE bubbles. And right now I have 2 airpumps working together to pump one stone in each DWC, so 4 pumps altogether. What I was hoping for was a very fine mist of bubbles like you'd see when opening up a bottle of club soda. This is not exactly it. Can anyone recommend some good airstones to put in the bottom of the DWC buckets? That one pump will create a nice oxygen mist in the water? I was considering those flexible long airtubes. Anyone have any experience with these?

[Zandor]

the ph rises due to uptake of CO2. The water is the limiting factor. The plants do not discharge into the water.

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing Gen.

Plants do discharge unused nutrients and by-products back into the water. That is why the PPM is only accurate at the time it's mixed. After a few hours with the plants it will start to change. Another reason why you change your res every 5-10 day's.

[GluteusMaximus]

Marx,

I use a bubble wand in my reservoir and it works great. Lots of tiny bubbles everywhere. If you enjoy playing with the PH, add more air :) A small price to pay for more oxygen.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/airstones.html

GM

[marx2k]

Gluteus, how do you keep these submerged? Also, do they clog after some time? I can always hot-glue the little plastic sucker holders it uses to the bottom of the bucket. But would you have a better method? Maybe this belongs in a new thread?

[GluteusMaximus]

I attached my bubble wand to the side of the hose coming out of the reservoir pump using two tie straps. The reservoir pump holds down the bubbler. I thought about sticking it to the bottom with the suction cups, but I figured they'd never be able to hold it down.

Yes, they will clog after time, but they're so damn cheap it doesn't really matter.

GM

[Gen]

Thanks z my mistake.

I'm using the flexible bubble curtain from walmart. $7 and they have not clogged yet. How long does it take before your plug up?

Good air pump general dynamics. I'm not using, but other people have and there are alot of bubbles. I believe it has 4 outlets.

[GluteusMaximus]

I'm using a flood and drain so the air pump is just suplimental. My 23" bubble wand (non flexible) began to clog about half way down the length of it after about 3 years in an aquarium. I haven't had enough time in hydro to witness one clog in nutrients.

I figure they clog from dirty air being pumped into them. But again, they're so damn cheap, you could afford to warehouse them.

I'm not sure, but it appears that the smaller diameter tubes provide smaller bubbles. My wand is very thin, about the diameter of a pencil and it gives me a tank full of bubbles. I broke it while stiring the reservoir (twice). Just capped the end of the shortened piece and back in business.

[maryjannne]

my lower fan leaves are doing the exact same thing, just the leaves that have been there the longest, I thought it might be my neem oil causing shiny spots but anyone who saw the pic said it looks like bug damage, anyone ever heard of neem causing shiny spots?

[Rictor]

My guess would be over use of fert.

[Buffalo Bill]

The smaller the res the quicker and more fluctuation of PH occurs. If you can get an extra stone in each bucket, that would be great. I use 4 12" stones in my 25 gallon ebb 'n flow res as well as one more in my table that comes on when the pump comes on. Consider using Botanicare's Hydroguard in your res. I have never had any algea problems. Your PH target of 5.8 is perfect. Best of luck....