Yikes! The bottom set of leaves are folding under and twisting!

[The Grim Reefer]

I've done some research on my problem but I can't seem to find any answer. I'm sure it's probably something simple, but anyway.

-It's currently day 25.
-I JUST used a small (1/4 strength) dose of ferts on it to see if it could help out - No signs of recovery yet.
-Temp is kept at a steady 80 F.
-There is plenty of ventilation as well as some c02 flow.
-The PH is 6.4-6.8

The leaves are a dark green, the tips are now getting crispy and have been curling under slowly for over a week now. Any help would be most appreciated.

:confused:

[Jdog7000]

Sounds like overfeeding.Nuteburn

[britewire]

PH is to high... set it on 5.6-6.0 but that´s not the reason the bottom leaves are folding. Why are the plants so small in day 25, that would be mine consern...

[The Grim Reefer]

JDog - I thought the same too, but I haven't given them any nutes for at least a week since this nonsense has been going on. I foliar fed them ONCE with a quarter strength dose, but that was it.

Britewire - I know they're little ladies, they've had a tough life. Aside from me not having my lights here when I first started the grow, (I was putting them outside which was basically the same as flowering *rolls eyes*) I also had the light too close to them for a few days.

Any other ideas? The plant directly next to it seems to be thriving just fine. no curls, maybe it's just a bushy plant and the leaves are dying due to the first 2 weeks of stress in 12/12. I have no idea! Haha

[The Grim Reefer]

What are signs of under fertilizing? Could that be a plausible cause?

[karmaxul]

Never folair your plants. If its nute burn it may not be from not from the roots. Leaves are not the same as roots and why companies tell you to folair is beyond me. Nitrogen for instance has to be converted from organic form to inorganic form to be useable to the plants. This is done with microorganisms and oxygen under the soil. Leaves are not ment to take in nutrients and mostly what it does is burns them. I would spray her down with water to wash that junk off.
One love
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[karmaxul]

When your tips burn that is the first sign of over fertilizing. I use on average one tenth of the recommended doses of most products. I never get burnt tips.
Have grown thousands of ladies.
One love
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[The Grim Reefer]

awesome. thanks for the info karm.

Should I go ahead and just spray her leaves with water before she sleeps and when she wakes up, flush her and start her nute cycle at a VERY low dosage?

[karmaxul]

Exactly spray her before she goes to bed(I let my kids party all day and night) or when she is not in direct light from a HID as you can burn the leaves. I would flush and feed at a low dose. I use atmost like one fifth of the recommend dose on average. Its best to feed the same every time and as apposed to one a week or every two weeks. You got to break down the dose to one fifth say then break that down again to the amount of times you water in the week or two week period that the company recommends.
What strain is she?
c

[The Grim Reefer]

Awesome, I appreciate the info and fast relpies WAY more than you know. :D
She's bag seed, and so is her friend. Her friend is doing a little bit better though.
*gets Dutch Master Reverse on stand-by*
I already know over 5 things I'm doing different on my next grow :p

Do you grow soil or hydro? I'm going to try FoxFarm Ocean Forest next time I think as far as soil goes. Worm castings and micro nutrients, mm MM!

Also, Purple Stems = Magn Def = Epsom Salt?

[The Grim Reefer]

The friend:

[karmaxul]

Purple stem = seedling, she looks very healthy.
I prefer soil but like to experiment with organic areo. I acually make fertilizer. The first ad is coming out in High Times next issue which is going to be a organic issue. www.gorillagrow.org if you want to check it out. The micronutes I use like 4 ppm from earthjuice if any.
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[The Grim Reefer]

Wow.

That soil looks fanstastic. Are ferts needed?
Where can I get some?

Also, I'm almost ALWAYS mixing pearlite with my soils, how well does it drain?

Sorry to bombard you with questions. ;p

[karmaxul]

Perlite is chill. I dont understand the first question and I love answering questions so bombard away.
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[The Grim Reefer]

Let me rephrase that, what I really meant to say was can you go longer without adding fertilizer since the soil is so full of nutrients?

That, and where can I get my hands on some?

I've got a few yellow spots on my leaves, I'm wondering if I might have splashed some water on it and it burned the leaf but I'm usually REALLY careful when I water them.

What could be the cause?

[karmaxul]

Cool, yes if your soil is full of nuts you dont need to ad any. Some break down slower then others which may eventually give you unbalance so if you got to many you may want to flush them out and do it up right. I am guessing the spots are from folair but its tuff to say when I am not there.
I am going to be selling from my site in under a month in smaller quanity then just to distributers. Hopefully in a year you can get it in every country as High Times is international. I am working on getting places like home depot and lowes and home hard ware to carry it. Also worms way and a few others besides your local grow shops who I would be glad to supply as well.
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[The Grim Reefer]

Quick question, since the bottom leaves are pretty much folded under and crispy.. they're still green but with yellowing tips. (interesting that the tips took FOREVER to start yellowing, the poor girl just did not want to lose those leaves.) but anyway, should I go ahead and clip them off to keep them from taking energy from the rest of the plant? Or would that throw it into stress?

[karmaxul]

You can clip em. I cant see them in the picture so I figure they are not getting any light anyway. If you are talking about the ones with three points then I would leave them as they are helping make food. If the leaf gets over 50% damaged I would clip it. I dont think the stress would be that noticable but seeing as she is so young you may wish to keep her leaves to watch what the leaf continues to do. It will be a good way to monitor health and you can only gain knowledge from it so I guess I would say let her ride.
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[The Grim Reefer]

Ok, I went ahead and flushed her and gave her 4-12-4.

The recommended dosage was half a capful at 1 gallon of water. I gave them a quarter of the dosage (1/2 Tbsp) and the recommended dosage of superthrive.

The plants are perking up, but it might be because of the water and not the nutes.. The healthier plant was showing signs of yellowing on the leaves before fert.

-Could this be a heat/humidity problem as well?

Unfortunately for me, my grow room stays around 80-84 during the day but goes down to low 70s at night.

I also wanted to ask do you think they need bigger pots? I don't know the signs of being rootbound.

[The Grim Reefer]

My Setup:

[The Grim Reefer]

Here's the sickly one:

I can also see a few tips of root peering through at me from the bottom holes. Rootbound?

[The Grim Reefer]

Here's the healthier one. The bottom leaves (the first real set of leaves) have become completely yellowed and brownish.

Again, I see a few SMALL tips of root from 1 or 2 holes.

[karmaxul]

The heat should not be a problem. Think of a green house, they can get over 100 degrees, but has high humidity.

The pots are a good size and will be fine untill the plant is over a foot tall. They still look like the bottom of the soil is lacking oxygen and staying damp do to the drooping leaves. You should be able to pick those pots up with two fingers before you need to water. Do those pots have decent air holes towards the bottom?

The phosphorus is very high so just becarfull. Phosphorus can be stored by the plant better then N or K. The plant uses the most N then K then P.

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[The Grim Reefer]

Awesome!

Thanks for the info Karm.

I did actually go ahead and transplant to bigger pots, about 4 inches more across the top.

I went ahead and doubled the size of each hole on one pot.. the other one I forgot to do though. :o If I see any problems I'll definitely take an exacto knife to it.

When I pulled the plants out of the old pots, there was a mass of roots along every side as well as completely covering the bottom. I don't know if that means anything, the entire pot was basically the rootball.

Another thing to mention would be that when I first potted them, I was told to put nothing but pearlite at the bottom to allow for better drainage, but after seeing the rootball up close and personal I've decided never to do it again.

Ever. :D

How do marijuana roots grow?

Also, I got some 100% organic fish emulsion with a rating of 5-1-1 and mixed it with some superthrive (of course incredibly small dosages) and watered them in their new homes.

I'll give you some updated pics in a day or so to see the progress!

[karmaxul]

Nice they should take off in terms of growth if your roots are that developed. The only 5-1-1 I used is Alaska which is good stuff. The superthrive since it is derived from kelp it should be high in K which is good. I cant find the numbers anywhere but I am going to be putting out a simular product and it is a 1-1-21 basically. I would guess the superthrive is simular to mine which is...
Average composition:
Solubility: > 99.0%
PH 8-10
Moisture 1-5%
Crude protein 6-8%
Organic matter .>45%
Alginic acid 10-20%
Mannitol 4-7%
Nitrogen 1.0-1.5%
Phosphorus:0.5-1.5%
Potassium 16-21%
Iron 0.2-0.4%
Calcium 0.15-0.20%
Sulphur 1.0-3.0 %
Magnesium 0.2-0.9 %
Total amino acid: 1.5-3.5% Essential trace elements:
Cytokinin & gibberellin: 600ppm-800ppm
(Natural hormone)
Copper 1-6ppm
Vitamin: >600ppm
Zinc: 50-200ppm
Manganese 5-12ppm
Molybdenum 1-5ppm
Boron: 16-24ppm
Nickel: 1-3ppm
Selenium: 2-3ppm
Plumbum: <10ppm
Hg: < 5ppm
Co: < 5ppm
Cd: < 5ppm

Growth hormones do lock up so you only need a little.

One love
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[The Grim Reefer]

Nice they should take off in terms of growth if your roots are that developed. The only 5-1-1 I used is Alaska which is good stuff. The superthrive since it is derived from kelp it should be high in K which is good. I cant find the numbers anywhere but I am going to be putting out a simular product and it is a 1-1-21 basically. I would guess the superthrive is simular to mine which is...
Average composition:
Solubility: > 99.0%
PH 8-10
Moisture 1-5%
Crude protein 6-8%
Organic matter .>45%
Alginic acid 10-20%
Mannitol 4-7%
Nitrogen 1.0-1.5%
Phosphorus:0.5-1.5%
Potassium 16-21%
Iron 0.2-0.4%
Calcium 0.15-0.20%
Sulphur 1.0-3.0 %
Magnesium 0.2-0.9 %
Total amino acid: 1.5-3.5% Essential trace elements:
Cytokinin & gibberellin: 600ppm-800ppm
(Natural hormone)
Copper 1-6ppm
Vitamin: >600ppm
Zinc: 50-200ppm
Manganese 5-12ppm
Molybdenum 1-5ppm
Boron: 16-24ppm
Nickel: 1-3ppm
Selenium: 2-3ppm
Plumbum: <10ppm
Hg: < 5ppm
Co: < 5ppm
Cd: < 5ppm

Growth hormones do lock up so you only need a little.

One love
c

I'm using Alaska too!

Is there anything you used alongside it?

I must say it smells like enema remains and baby vomit.

[karmaxul]

I think maxicrop is a good buddy for Alaka with a 1-0-4 NPK. A 6-1-5 is great for veg. :D
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[Garden Knowm]

GRIM...

love

your plants are stretching cause your lights are way way to far away...
bring those lights to about 1/2 inch away...
those are fluorescent bulbs .. correct?

they should almost be touching the leaves...

love

[karmaxul]

Garden Knowm
I dont think those are flouros. See the inner igniter, flouro dont have those. They look like a MH to me although I have never seen them frosted like that so I see where you get that they look like flouros from.
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[The Grim Reefer]

Knowm - <3

Karm - <3

These are actually 2x 250 watt HPS bulbs, I set everything up differently last night since I can tell there's going to be a lot more height, haha- is there a possibility of having "too much" air blowing on my ladies?

[karmaxul]

My friend I believe those are mecury bulbs.

http://feixinlighting.en.alibaba.com/product/50083616/50385857/Mercury_lamp/Mercury_Lamp.html

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[The Grim Reefer]

Those do look a lot like my bulbs. In fact, I went ahead and turned my lights off for a quick second to go investigate..

(the reason they're emitting yellow light is because they're still in the process of warming up in the picture)

I don't know if you can make out the letters "HPS" but what it reads, is "HPS 250 Watt Made in Belgium"

[karmaxul]

Your biggest plant looks a bit droopy is she drying out every 2 to 3 days? Seeing how a flouro is filled with mercury, would a mercury vapor be a flouro only much less effecient? Humm G Nome do you know?
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Nice color your ph looks fine.

[The Grim Reefer]

Karm - <3

The night before I transferred her she was watered, but I knew she needed to be moved to her bigger pot so I did it anyway.

Of course as we all know, everytime you transplant you have to water so I poured about a gallon through her.

I'm waiting for the soil to dry out, the top is still moist so they're just adjusting to their new home/overwatering :D

I hate when problems cause you to overwater but there's not much I can do besides wait for the pots to dry out. Any suggestions?

[The Grim Reefer]

Also, the bigger one (if you're talking about the bushy one), it's always had droopy leaves with a small curl, is this something to worry about or should I chalk it up to strain?

I'm assuming strain since it doesn't even look like the leaves would straighten out if they wanted to, she's definitely not suppose to be drooping that much though. (as I said, overwatered on purpose)

[The Grim Reefer]

Hey Karm, also a question for you. On that Alaska fertilizer, they say to fertilize every 3 weeks. Since I'm using such low dosages, should I heed their instructions? How often did you use the fert?

I believe I used a quarter teaspoon last time. (per 1 gallon)

[karmaxul]

Genetics do not make plants droopy it is 99% of the time from over watering. I would take off the wet soil added with the transplant and replace it with dry soil. If the inside is wet the outter soil will absorb moisture and be great to expand the new roots as they will reach for the air if it is there.

Alaska grow...
Total Nitrogen is 5%
0.50 % Ammoniacal Nitrogen
0.75 % Water Insoluble Nitrogen
3.75 % Other Water Soluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate 1 %
Soluble Potash 1 %
Primary Nutrients Derived form Seagoing Fish.
Chlorine 4 %

Lets say the directions say 3 tablespoons of the fertilizer with a gallon of water, and used this every 10 to 14 days. I believe 1 ml of Alaska is 85 microseimens or 42 ppm with a .5 convertion in a gallon of water. I water every two days as with the garden sprayer and level of water I give them that is when they are dry. I use in terms of ppm 50ppm every two days for the life of the plant. So 14 days divided by 2 is 7. Since 5 ml is a teaspoon and they recomend 45ml I use 15% of the recommended dose. It is best to water with the same ion (salt) or tds (total disolved solids) every time to minimize stress and maximize growth and yield. So if you water every.....
Two days use 1ml per gallon
Four days use 2ml per gallon
Six days use 3ml per gallon

I use maxi crop with Alaska at the same amount 1ml to 1ml as maxicrop does not raise the tds that much.

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[karmaxul]

I have used the maxicrop alaka before with much success. very tasty nugs. I would not switch numbers in bud at all and ad one drop of thrivealive green per gallon. You will never have a burned tip or yellow leaf if you dont over water.

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[karmaxul]

Are you making them into mothers?:)
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[The Grim Reefer]

Karm - <3

You're fantastic bro.

The plants are perking up as the soil is drying out like I suspected, still not all the way there though. There's still an issue with the very tips curling under, I'm wondering if I overdid it with the serving of Alaska (even though the bottle says it doesn't burn, I don't doubt it) maybe you can give me a heads up?

The info you gave me is 100% perfect. I'll see if I can't get my hands on some maxicrop within the next few days.

As far as a mother plant, hell yes I'll be using one of them! I bet you wouldn't be able to guess that all of those plants are the same age except the two smallest ones :D (I'm going to have mini trees. long story)

What do you recommend as far as flowering? (nute wise)

I'd like to get them about 2 foot tall and healthy as hell before I even considering changing the lighting to 12/12.

Anyway, I'm mostly concerned about the tips of the new growth (and some old) curling under a bit.

Any and all info appreciated as always my ape friend. :D

[The Grim Reefer]

After re-reading your post, I realized that 1/4 teaspoon is 1.25 milliliters so it shouldn't have burned.. however in that bushy plant (I should just name the fucker droopy) I'm noticing a few yellow spots too where it looks like the chloropyll is just up and leaving. They aren't at the tips (well, some are.. right below the cola) but the foliage is feeling really heavy, it's quite dark green. It almost looks wilty. Overwatering?

The soil is still pretty wet. Waiting.

[The Grim Reefer]

Btw, I'll probably go ahead and scrape out some of the wet soil and put some dry stuff in there if overwatering is the case. (as you suggested) Just to specify, on the pic the tall one in the front's leaves are really thin at the ends and curling under with a very very small tint of yellow at the tips. Droopy has leaves the are curling under hardcore.

[karmaxul]

Leaves will burn if over fertilized not droop

Small trees, if you are thinking bonsai its not a good idea. (very long story) but basicall the leaves and plant get drained. Revivable, well sure but they are stunted for months. For the moms dont really trim them till they reach a foot. If they begin to strech you can take a top fan leaf off when it is the size of your smallest toe nail or smaller to promote closer nodes.

For flowing keep using the alaska and maxicrop they will taste greaaaat. No need to really adjust the numbers all it does is sell more fertilizer and cause stress. I would stick with the alaska maxicrop at equal amounts, and a drop of thrive alive green(all organic). You may wish to bring up the P slightly to like a 6-4-5 with some earth juice bloom.

Tips curling with what you are using for nutes would definatly be the amount of moisture in the soil. She will come back no worries

I only grow small single cola plants but i crank the numbers. The 2 foot high plants can be regenerated after flowering with some triming techniques to make the lower branches have shorter node spacing if you got the room. If you only have room for one mother thats cool, but keep this in mind. I started indoor growing with some beaster seeds about the same amount of plants as yours. I flowered two and grew a male with them. I crossed the strains (mostly sativa) together and called her ripple. I grew her about 2 feet and rented a stealth house. Within a year I was rockin. Then I got Jack Herar, NL#1,AK47 and some haze which did nothing but take up space as she took 88 days to flower. Any way I had hundreds of clones in the first 5 months. At that point I grew full time until (a even longer story (I got to large and was ran out of the state)) I met the wrong people. Stay away from them damn Catholic colleges. Rapest breeding grounds just like the pope

Over watering can cause high ph in the bottom of the pots and that is most likely what is causing the yellow spots.

I like the name "Droopy", but she is not going to be that way for long.

Yes they need to dry out to regulate the ph and get oxygen to all of the roots. The best way to water is with a garden sprayer. Or you can water a little bit to get the top wet and prevent water going down the sides then water a bit more so really only the top is damp to wet and the bottom is dry to moist at all times.

Keep me posted

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[karmaxul]

E.J. Bloom is a 0-3-1 and tastes great as well but is very concentrated so no need to get a gallon unless you can keep it in a cool place. I used to pick up 5 gallon buckets of it but I would use 50 gallons of nute mix a day with my soil. You should have seen my white walls as I grew in my bedrooms first. The white walls were purple do to the moisture. It took a couple thick coats of paint to cover up.

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[The Grim Reefer]

Hahahaha, that's awesome.

I've been reading a lot of the posts and I know about the bs you went through. Eff them. I'm glad you're moving on and you're safe. You have all of my best wishes man.

Definitely yellowing on the bushy plant, but I'm sure it'll be fine.

What kind of garden sprayer should I look for? Do you just spray the soil until it looks wet?

[karmaxul]

Man it was good times, soon enough I be back up and running

Since you only got a few something like a one gallon one should be good for now.

I found this one on ebay with a buy it now of 12 bucks plus 8 for shipping. I got a couple nice metal ones for 20 bucks at the local hard ware store, but it was a 2 gallon. This one should be able to put in the frig or would be easy to otherwise store.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHAPIN-1-GALLON-GARDEN-PUMP-SPRAYIT-SPRAY-IT-SPRAYER_W0QQitemZ7744412243QQcategoryZ75667QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

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:)

[karmaxul]

Ya it is really vital they dry out soon to get them greener and healthier.

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[karmaxul]

The only thing about that one is it doesnt curve down at the tip. You can replace the gun part though.

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