curling leaves question

[mountainman]

When leaves start to curl up, that's too much water, right? I'm in rockwool with a weak solution of nutrients and Earth Juice Catalyst with some silicates. Any ideas/help?

[Swizzy89304]

Are they curling like this?

This was caused by heat.

[mountainman]

No, yours clearly are wilting. Here's some pics. The first picture is my best soil beside my 1 hydro. The soil plant is very erect with no drooping, while the hydro plant is obviously not drooping, but the leaf edges are curling upwards, not downwards as a wilted plant would.

I also keep a thermometerr right nearby and is doesn't go over 82.

[Swizzy89304]

Lol shes not wilting, when I took Fiona out and put her on the windowsill to enjoy some natural light she cleared right up. Im thinking it was a heat problem or something, but thats sorted now.

Leaf curling up can be a sign of a Magnesium (Mg) deficiency caused by too low of a pH level. Magnesium deficiency will show as a yellowing (which may turn brown and crispy) and interveinal yellowing, beginning in the older leaves. Interveinal chlorosis - in laymans terms, yellowing - will start at the leaf tip and progressing inward between the veins. It could also be a sign of excess heat and humidity in the grow room.
You need to check and adjust the pH level (Im sure youve done this). When the pH is not at the proper level marijuana will lose its ability to absorb some of the essential elements required for healthy growth. If youâ??re growing in soil, Magnesium will begin to be locked out at a pH of around 6.5 and lower, in hydro it starts at 5.8 and below. If the pH is correct, then add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salts per each gallon to your water. Or, if you prefer to foliar feed them, add a ½ teaspoon per quart to a spray bottle.

Tell me if that worked or not! Epsom Salts ban be bought at a chemist, I bought a big 250g tub for about £2 (around $5)

[mountainman]

Well, there's no yellowing spots. If I turn off the HPS and look at the leaves under regular lighting there are no visible yellowing spots. It just seems to be the curling. The roots in the res seem healthy too.

As far as epsom salt, what is the purpose of that? I've heard that it ends up stunting plant growth. Also, I've been trying to keep the ph between 5.7 and 6.0. It's usually between 5.9 and 6.1. Right now, it's 6.15.

[Swizzy89304]

Epsom salts have a VERY high content of magnesium. Dont know about them stunting growth though :confused:

[mountainman]

I'll give it a try. Any ideas what sorta store might be open right now and carry them? Target? Walmart? Grocery stores?

[Swizzy89304]

Mate, I havent got a clue to be honest. I live in the UK, so we dont have Walmart and all that. Jus good ol Sainsburys and Tesco...
Try at a chemist, thats where I got mine from. They sell them because they can help with constipation aswell :dance:

[mountainman]

I'll try a pharmacist. If it helps constipation, I would expect them there.

[mountainman]

Found it! W00t! Bought 1 kg for $4.34 from the 24 hour CVS Pharmacy. Thanks a bunch, I'll keep you updated and post pics of the results. :-D

[mountainman]

How quickly should the plant improve? Will the leaves get better? Or will new leaves just be healthy?

[mountainman]

Thanks alot for your help, Swizzy. So here's what I've got/done:

Current nutrients list (25 gallon system):
10 mL/gallon of Fox Farm Grow Big
5 mL/gallon of Earth Juice Catalyst
25 mg/liter Sodium Meta Silicate
1 teaspoon/gallon Epsom Salt

I haven't really seen any improvement in the leaves, and there's now actually some downward curling on some lower large leaves that's visible in these pics. However, new growth seems to be coming in fine. The current ph is just above 6.05.

I measured, and at the current height there's about 6-7 inches between the plant and the HPS reflector, with 13 inches from the plant to the light bulb. I haven't changed the height of the reflector at all yet. Maybe raise it 6 inches?

[latewood]

you can buy epsom salts in any grocery store, pharmacy,wal/Kmart...anywhere...1-2 tbs in res with water change for magnesium...

Do you use ROwater/distilled or tap/well water? If Ro/dist...then you need calcium and magnesium replenished in the water, as above process removes minerals,etc.

Just buy Botanicare Calmag+ and be done with it.lw under 20 bucks! Problem solved!

[mountainman]

latewood, I use tap water. Any suggestions?

[latewood]

Lol shes not wilting, when I took Fiona out and put her on the windowsill to enjoy some natural light she cleared right up. Im thinking it was a heat problem or something, but thats sorted now.

Leaf curling up can be a sign of a Magnesium (Mg) deficiency caused by too low of a pH level. Magnesium deficiency will show as a yellowing (which may turn brown and crispy) and interveinal yellowing, beginning in the older leaves. Interveinal chlorosis - in laymans terms, yellowing - will start at the leaf tip and progressing inward between the veins. It could also be a sign of excess heat and humidity in the grow room.
You need to check and adjust the pH level (Im sure youve done this). When the pH is not at the proper level marijuana will lose its ability to absorb some of the essential elements required for healthy growth. If youâ??re growing in soil, Magnesium will begin to be locked out at a pH of around 6.5 and lower, in hydro it starts at 5.8 and below. If the pH is correct, then add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salts per each gallon to your water. Or, if you prefer to foliar feed them, add a ½ teaspoon per quart to a spray bottle.

Tell me if that worked or not! Epsom Salts ban be bought at a chemist, I bought a big 250g tub for about £2 (around $5)"rusty brown spots between dark green veins and on tips, leaf tips curl up before dying"*TIB...
these don't appear to be in that condition.:) :cool:

1st let me say, I agree PH levels can start can be part of the start of your problem...But now...

It looks like A phosphorous deficiency...Q, Are the leaf stems or under side reddish/purple? do the older leaftips darken and turn downward? You appear to be in the middle stages of a phosphorus def. and if it gets worse, leaves will develop dead blotches/bronze/purple, shrivel and...fall off.:( :(

Oh, For epsom salts value; I said 2 tbs per res change in other post. After researching your problem, I found that the recommended value is 2 tbs* per gallon...:thumbsup:

*Important note: You must dissolve dosage of epsom salts for a few hours (in a couple gallons of water) before adding to entire mix! Very important!

hope this helps.lw:smokin:

[latewood]

So. what do we do for a phoshorous/phosphate deficiency? :cool:
Oh yeah, another contributing factor is Acidic conditions...ph, again:)

Now I could be wrong about def. Awaiting other's to chime in on this one...

[latewood]

Epsom salts have a VERY high content of magnesium. Dont know about them stunting growth though :confused:most experts state that they don't really know how much is too much, within reason, but, to err on the side of less is more; Is safer. :thumbsup: Imho.lw

[latewood]

Thanks alot for your help, Swizzy. So here's what I've got/done:

Current nutrients list (25 gallon system):
10 mL/gallon of Fox Farm Grow Big
5 mL/gallon of Earth Juice Catalyst
25 mg/liter Sodium Meta Silicate
1 teaspoon/gallon Epsom Salt

I haven't really seen any improvement in the leaves, and there's now actually some downward curling on some lower large leaves that's visible in these pics. However, new growth seems to be coming in fine. The current ph is just above 6.05.

I measured, and at the current height there's about 6-7 inches between the plant and the HPS reflector, with 13 inches from the plant to the light bulb. I haven't changed the height of the reflector at all yet. Maybe raise it 6 inches?This is the symptoms of phosphorous def. I was talking about. Do you have earth bloom? I looked up your nutes you could add 1/2 value of grow and 1/2 value of bloom...this would up your -P- values with out changing you veg nutes, too much. imho.

You know? another concern that I have is, overferting...those plant are still kinda small...Are you sure that they can handle full strength...Now you need some -P-...but, you might be better flushing for a day, then starting with a 50-50 blend of grow/bloom at 50% strength...sorry, I'm just loving this thread.
Might be the Nice fatty, :smokin: burnt

[latewood]

latewood, I use tap water. Any suggestions?
yeah...I have several: I will go by best/msot expense to alternatives, by value/expense...
1st go to ebay and buy the 80 dollar ROunit...devoneb is the maker of mine...and despite nay'sayers...I will tell you, straight up. It works just as good as the 300 dollar one at sears...Same* componenets same filter...probably made by a guy like me,(fabricator) but, in the plumbing business, that grows pot...found a market and the easy availability of filter parts, opened ebay store...you see where I am going with this?

alternative 1...go buy a few 2.5 gallon distilled water...then re-cycle; you can make little bubblers out of the empties and clone away...another thread.

alternative 2...boil water or let it sit 24 hours to get rid of chlorine/and other nasties (unwanted bacteria), found in tapwater...

what are you using the silicates for? I forget.

[mountainman]

Holy crap latewood! I left for a couple hours to buy a new ipod and you post a zillion posts. Thanks! :-D I'll reply over the next hour or so, but first I gotta get my new baby syncing. lol

I have some Tiger Bloom which is higher in phoshorus, I could use that. The Foxfarm is mixed at the weakest suggested concentration.

[mountainman]

Ok Latewood, so as I go through this, I'm just going through all your posts and responding.

I looked and my stems are quite reddish purple, especially in comparison to my soil plants. There aren't any blotches like that under the leaves, though. However, I just noticed that one leaf is starting to get some blotches that appear to be dying, it looks like the clorophyl is just leaving the areas and they're drying out.

As far as the ph, I've been trying to keep it just barely above 6.0 now that you guys have been talking about magnesium defficiencies. I have a digital ph meter, so I'm measuring accurately.

As I said about the nutes, I don't think I'm over fertilizing as I'm not getting burn like I did on a soil plant that I over fertilized. My Tiger Bloom is a 2-8-4. I could mix that half and half in the res with the Grow Big as you suggested.

The silicates are to provide cell wall building blocks and assist in mold resistance. I've read that there's generally silicates in soil plants, however hydro plants generally lack it unless it's added to the mixture. However, it doesn't seem that anyone has really shown that it has a definite advantage.

As far as a flush, would I just run clean water through my res for the full day? Thanks again for your help.

[mountainman]

Oh yeah, should I move my 400 watt HPS up too?

[mountainman]

ok yeah, I've definitely got some cripsy leaves now :-(

[latewood]

Ok Latewood, so as I go through this, I'm just going through all your posts and responding.

I looked and my stems are quite reddish purple, especially in comparison to my soil plants. There aren't any blotches like that under the leaves, though. However, I just noticed that one leaf is starting to get some blotches that appear to be dying, it looks like the clorophyl is just leaving the areas and they're drying out.

As far as the ph, I've been trying to keep it just barely above 6.0 now that you guys have been talking about magnesium defficiencies. I have a digital ph meter, so I'm measuring accurately.

As I said about the nutes, I don't think I'm over fertilizing as I'm not getting burn like I did on a soil plant that I over fertilized. My Tiger Bloom is a 2-8-4. I could mix that half and half in the res with the Grow Big as you suggested.

The silicates are to provide cell wall building blocks and assist in mold resistance. I've read that there's generally silicates in soil plants, however hydro plants generally lack it unless it's added to the mixture. However, it doesn't seem that anyone has really shown that it has a definite advantage.

As far as a flush, would I just run clean water through my res for the full day? Thanks again for your help.I think that 50/50 mix will get you by...What kind of lighting are you using, and I really couldn't make out your system. What have you got rigged up? thanks for the thanks, makes it worth while. lw:smokin:

[mountainman]

Ok, so should I flush my system for a day with clean water right away? Or just add some tiger bloom? Or start a new solution with tiger bloom?

[mountainman]

Here's a picture of the lighting system. I raised the light about 4-5 inches tonight.

[latewood]

I think that 50/50 mix will get you by...What kind of lighting are you using, and I really couldn't make out your system. What have you got rigged up? thanks for the thanks, makes it worth while. lw:smokin:

PS I would strongly advise you get some Pro enzyme's...either the HYgrozyme or the Sensi-zyme...You use about a 1/3 less Hygro than sensi-, but Hygro costs 2x as much...I use Hygro after trying sensi-zyme...I get gooeybudz, so I keep using it! Liquid Karma won't hurt either...If I added just one additive...
It would be Liquid karma*...Oh yeah, you got Earth Juice catalyst. Looking forward to following your grow to see your results;)

*remember, when using organic nutes/additives you cannot use hydrogen PeroxideH2o2 to kill bacteria...it will kill 'beneficials' :p as well as 'cooties'!!!:(
so, instead, we use the above products and this allows us to use organic additives,etc...

In answer to your question about flush; Again, I hope anyone else that knows better, chime on in, anytime:) anyway, I think that you since you have a flat-out deficiency...You really need the phos', so I would get fresh water mix that 50/50 solution 1/2 strength, adjust ph to 5.8 and let 'er ride.:thumbsup:

gotta go take some pix of new ops...you all are going to love it:D :) :cool:

[mountainman]

Ok, I just added some of the Tiger Bloom last night, at half of the weak strength without refilling the res. I figure that since I'm already running the solution weak in order to be safe, it won't hurt to just add some bloom nutes. I'll keep an eye out for nutrient burn, I know what that looks like as I burned my soil plant a bit a few days ago and had to do a flush. I'll keep an eye on the new growth to see what happens and keep you posted. The roots are still doing great and growing like crazy!

[britewire]

No, yours clearly are wilting. Here's some pics. The first picture is my best soil beside my 1 hydro. The soil plant is very erect with no drooping, while the hydro plant is obviously not drooping, but the leaf edges are curling upwards, not downwards as a wilted plant would.

I also keep a thermometerr right nearby and is doesn't go over 82.


Leaves curling up is a sign of stress...

Maybe it´s the lack of nutrients.. in soil you always have more nutrients and spores than could ever get in Hydro substrates.

[latewood]

the whole point of flushing is too rid the plant of nutes and toxins, your plant omit toxins in the water as a discharge...I think that is how it goes. Just adding something might work, but in my h.o., you just wasted nutes; And you don't know what's in there. You see, only with a fresh batch of nutes, will You really know what you got.

If you think you are wasting money...Do what I do. Think of how much that 'sakoweed' is gonna cost, if you lose'em.

I think you will find that any experienced grower will tell you; In Hydro if you are having nutrient or res problems....Emergency...
Danger, Will Robinson!, FLUSHFLUSHFLUSHFLUSH...What about the Epsom salts you added? Did you really need that in your res? It's like
fixing your car's electrical system...1 part at a time. Goodluck lw

[britewire]

It´s a very drastic step to add Epsom salts for a little problem like that..

Do what latewood said... FLUSH and start over with a light EC value of 1.1-1.2 and a higher PH of 5.8. Maybe try flushing with Enzymes.. good for the damaged roots, it´s strips the roots and makes it nice and strong again. Best Enzymes IMO oppinion are the enzymes that disoves wasspaper glue best. I´ve got great results with the PLAGRON enzymes.

Oh yeah..

Buy a EC and PH meter.. it´s sure helps you adding the right amount of nutes

[mountainman]

Well Latewood, I probably did waste nutes, but everyone's gotta learn :-) So I'm doing a flush, how long should I run clean water for?

As far as the EC, my ph meter also does EC, so I'll learn to use that function too. Hopefully this clears it all up.

[mountainman]

The plant is still very much alive. Its roots are growing like crazy, so it should be no problem to bring back. I'll keep you updated.

[latewood]

You will be OK, we just wanted to stress, clean up the mess...I hope all works for you, really. There has been a couple times that I did something stupid/stoned, that caused me to waste a whole rez...And with my recipe; That 'chit aint' cheap...Look forward to updates. lw

[mountainman]

Thanks again, Latewood, for the help. You're such a huge asset to the board, I've read soooo many of your posts :-)

Anyway, two more questions. 1. I'm runnig the res with totally clean water right now, how long should I run it for before adding nutes again? I was figuring about a day. 2. Should I run the clean water at a ph of 5.8ish? Or should I just leave it neutral?

[mountainman]

Ok, so I flushed for a day. Then I replaced the flushing water with new water. I did a 50/50 mix of tiger bloom and grow big, overshot the EC slightly, to 1.26. I brought the ph to 5.8 almost precisely.

The plant has been doing just fine lately, no new curling leaves and the purple stems are turning back to green. I haven't added anything aside from the nutes, although in a couple days I'll add the earth juice catalyst again.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[latewood]

Thanks again, Latewood, for the help. You're such a huge asset to the board, I've read soooo many of your posts :-)

Anyway, two more questions. 1. I'm runnig the res with totally clean water right now, how long should I run it for before adding nutes again? I was figuring about a day. 2. Should I run the clean water at a ph of 5.8ish? Or should I just leave it neutral?sorry, computer, took a shit yesterday...picked up something...

You can flush with neutral, but I always ph my water if I have a problem, although I am sure there is debate about it...In all the books I've read they show cartoons of hippies with their plants in the shower and shit...lol, the most important thing is to flush...period....

You flush for a day or so, maybe longer...take a look at them...when they perk up, hit'em with that light nute solution.lw

[latewood]

Ok, so I flushed for a day. Then I replaced the flushing water with new water. I did a 50/50 mix of tiger bloom and grow big, overshot the EC slightly, to 1.26. I brought the ph to 5.8 almost precisely.

The plant has been doing just fine lately, no new curling leaves and the purple stems are turning back to green. I haven't added anything aside from the nutes, although in a couple days I'll add the earth juice catalyst again.

Any suggestions are welcome.Well, I don't say this often, but I am fuckin' thrilled...Hell yeah...

Now just watch them for a good week...top off with clean water and superthrive if you have it. Just watch the new growth take off as the plant relaxes from all that stress...lw:dance:

[busteruk7]

thanks swizzy ya post has just solved a prob im having with discolouration of my plants can you buy epsom salts in the UK?:thumbsup:

[mountainman]

thanks swizzy ya post has just solved a prob im having with discolouration of my plants can you buy epsom salts in the UK?:thumbsup:

Swizzy is in the UK :-) They carry them at pretty much all pharmacies. Often in the First Aid section, and it's damn cheap too.

[mountainman]

Hey Latewood. The plant was looking pretty good after flushing it for a day. Then I replaced the flush water with a light nutrient solution. I was a little worried at first, cause a few hours it started looking wilted, kinda like the heat stressed plants at the beginning of this post. But, next morning, my gf and I woke up to find a great, erect looking plant. I was pretty damn happy.

I added some Earth Juice Catalyst again, no problems at all. I'm not gonna add those silicates again, I kinda wonder if it could have been some impurities in those. I guess the lesson I learned here is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I didn't need the silicates when I added them, so it was a dumbass move on my part. But as I said, I don't know for sure if that's what cause the problems, and I'm not about to test that hypothesis either ;-)

As far as the superthrive, the local hydro store here carries it. Is it worth the expense? What are the advantages going to be? I'll drop the cash if it's worth it.

12/12 cycle was induced last night, as they need to be sexed before a trip. I'll give the boy/girl results when they're in ;-)

[busteruk7]

cheers m8 i will go and get some tomorrow when in town thanks, there is one more thing how much would i add to the litre of water thanks all :thumbsup:

[mountainman]

Make sure you read this thread and decide if you actually need it, you don't wanna overload your system with anything you don't need :-)

[busteruk7]

all i am using is bog standard potting peat and im using canna vega once every 2 weeks with a watering of just water in between feeds ill post some pics so ya can see what the problem is i really need to do something about this thanks all

[mountainman]

The burnt tips make me think nutrient burn, but the evenly yellowed leaves puzzle me. However, did you adjust the ph of your peat? Pure peat usually needs to be adjusted before use. Someone else could fill you in on that concept better than I.

[busteruk7]

i havent checked any ph balance and dident know ya had to ajust potting peat befour use i will get a ph testing kit when im in town and see, what should the recommended ph balance be for my plants and should i use epsom salts if its over or under the recommended balance cheers mountainman:)

[mountainman]

If I remember right, soil should be around 6.8. As far as the other questions, hopefully Latewood or Zandor can fill you in, as I'm not extremely experienced. I just know some basics :-)

[busteruk7]

ok cheers mountainman that has helped alot cheers again :rasta: