Why religion doesn't exist

[activedenial]

Recently I toked up a bowl and I thought wait a minute, religion can't exist and had to of been made up by man. Let's say there was a nuclear war and the entire human race was wiped out including all structures that humans made, and all the history as well. If there were two survivors who lost all memory, they would have no religion. If they had kids they would have to tell them that they don't know what happens when they die so you are going to have to wait and find out. I think religion is the root of evil in the world. Fuck the stereotype of the agnostic and atheists whom get criticized over not believing or not knowing whether or not there is a god. I think the world would be better off without religion. Look at the crazy muslims, and the christians.:D except I do like christmas.

[187]

there is a spiritual bored

[RastaKaze]

I remember I thought the same thing at one time

but there is always one question that goes unanswered:

where the fuck did it all come from

and until you can answer that, you can't really say theres no god

[lemonboy]

and until you can answer that, you can't really say theres no godSounds like an Intelligent Design supporter to me :) Hehe.

[BobBong]

Recently I toked up a bowl and I thought wait a minute, religion can't exist and had to of been made up by man. Let's say there was a nuclear war and the entire human race was wiped out including all structures that humans made, and all the history as well. If there were two survivors who lost all memory, they would have no religion. If they had kids they would have to tell them that they don't know what happens when they die so you are going to have to wait and find out. I think religion is the root of evil in the world. Fuck the stereotype of the agnostic and atheists whom get criticized over not believing or not knowing whether or not there is a god. I think the world would be better off without religion. Look at the crazy muslims, and the christians.:D except I do like christmas.


Religion is a part of human nature. maybe not everyone's human nature.. but just human nature in general. That's why it was "invented", that's why wars are fought over it and it's also why it'll always exsist.
As long our Human nature stays the same.. there will always be religion.

Just like there's always be stereotypes.

Look at your own post even.. You think religion is the root of all evil.. and yet you probably whole heartedly enjoy at least 2 religious holidays a year.

I'm not even going to touch the "crazy muslim" comment........


So really.. it looks like you don't know what the hell you're actually talking about. you contradict yourself so many times in your post.. it hurts my brain.

You need to think this out some more, me thinks.

Or actually experience something before you can give your NON stereotypical opinion about it.

[Reefer Rogue]

Athiem's main arguement is that there isn't a god because such an omnipitent being would never allow such evils we have in this world to exist.

[RastaKaze]

Sounds like an Intelligent Design supporter to me :) Hehe.
I hear that "Intelligent Design" thing everywhere

what exactly is it

[bedake]

Religion is pointless, its a simple as that, there is no way to know what is going on. I for one do not believe in a higher being, and really dont care if there is one or not, anyone who makes a claim that they met god is a lunatic, any person that says he knows for sure there is one is a brainwashed fool or a liar.

[bedake]

I hear that "Intelligent Design" thing everywhere

what exactly is it


It's religious peoples way of defending their beliefs once they got pwned by the fact that evolution existed.

[RastaKaze]

It's religious peoples way of defending their beliefs once they got pwned by the fact that evolution existed.
Oh hahaha that's priceless

But I was just thinking logically

I mean, we just don't know anything when it comes to this matter, REALLY

you can explain what is on the earth

but that doesn't explain how it was birthed

[RastaKaze]

anyone who makes a claim that they met god is a lunatic, any person that says he knows for sure there is one is a brainwashed fool or a liar.

I havn't met god. But I know for sure there is one, and im not a brainwashed fool or liar. Just think. There had some be SOME significant being/and or events that lead to our creation

[activedenial]

I remember I thought the same thing at one time

but there is always one question that goes unanswered:

where the fuck did it all come from

and until you can answer that, you can't really say theres no god


I think there are a couple possibilities for that. Either we were placed here by advanced species or humans from another planet, or we also could have evolved from simple organisms.

[activedenial]

there is a spiritual bored


You think I look fucking spiritual. :rolleyes:

[bedake]

we also could have evolved from simple organisms.


we did evolve from simple organisms, the big bang theory kinda explains how we got here

[RastaKaze]

we did evolve from simple organisms, the big bang theory kinda explains how we got here

Just making a certain word bold :D

Is religion, if anything, not just a buncha theory's?

so What makes the scientists ones more credible?

because it is the MOST widely excepted religion

science

[beachguy in thongs]

Think of those two people, living alone on Earth, and their questions about why the sky cries or growls. The sky gets mad and becomes a force that they try to appease.

[bedake]

exactly, i believe in evolution cause we there is scientific proof we evolved, on the other hand there is no proof any religion is real. I know you can just say well god just made that, because a 'god' can do anything its like taking the easy way out. you can say god invented the internet, god created evolution, god created himself. there is no way to tell, i believe in evolution, thats all i know, i dont believe in a god, do i think we will ever know how we got here? no

[RastaKaze]

exactly, i believe in evolution cause we there is scientific proof we evolved, on the other hand there is no proof any religion is real. I know you can just say well god just made that, because a 'god' can do anything its like taking the easy way out. you can say god invented the internet, god created evolution, god created himself. there is no way to tell, i believe in evolution, thats all i know, i dont believe in a god, do i think we will ever know how we got here? no

something still had to put "evolution" in motion

where did the first phsyical lifeform come from?

that's what i thought :)

[bedake]

Know what religion i find kinda amusing, Scientology, the fact that it was made based around L Ron hubbard is funny, I love him as an author, but haha he has a religion..

Some good links if you are questioning your beliefs
positiveatheism.com
atheistempire.com
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_commandments.html
http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.religionisbullshit.org/

[Az.]

I mean, we just don't know anything when it comes to this matter, REALLY

Thats kinda like some Socrates quote.....i think it was him anyway...im going to check it out.

yea it was

â??The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.â?�

just thought it kinda linked in with the subject....lol

He was quite a cool guy....had some good quotes....

he also said "Death may be the greatest of all human blessings." which could also be true....

[bedake]

Epicurus once said,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I like that quote

[fractur]

I hear that "Intelligent Design" thing everywhere

what exactly is it

As far as I can tell, ID is an alternative to evolution that proposes that changes occur due to an intelligent designer rather than natural selection. They seem to have chosen a somewhat silly and overcomplex explanation to fit whatever views. Pope Pius XII stated years ago that evolution, while not necessarily correct, was outside of the church's theological jurisdiction. Evolution does not endanger or contradict religion, but it contradicts assumptions that many people have made about their religion.


Epicurus once said,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I like that quote

He assumes that his reasoning and knowledge are as great or greater than that of God. He also assumes that his understanding of the nature of God is correct. His reasoning is solid only to those that do not question it sufficiently.

[Great Spirit]

God is within you.....God isn't an old white bearded man on a throne. God is the life process itself, a manifestation. Religion could never contain God, only explain a little bit!! God is sexless and I think shouldnt be referred to as He or even She, as God is both male/female, and thats just for this Game, as their are unlimited universes and Games. I believe to put it simply, if you can think of it, you can experience it in the physical. The only way to experience God is to love others unconditionally, as God does for you.

[mrdevious]

I remember I thought the same thing at one time

but there is always one question that goes unanswered:

where the fuck did it all come from

and until you can answer that, you can't really say theres no god

untill you can answer that, you can't really say there is a god either.

Just because we don't have all the answers yet doesn't give god the credit by default.

[RastaKaze]

untill you can answer that, you can't really say there is a god either.

Just because we don't have all the answers yet doesn't give god the credit by default.

Yes I can

but you see, I don't mean god in the normal sense of the word

infact, let's call it the birth of the phsyical realm

WHAT caused it?

the being/event that set time into motion is God

[Tmar.aLL.DaYmar]

i wish i had caught this thread earlier, so i could have actually kept track of it.

but as for "birth of the physical realm" or the big bang, or any of that. that can basically just be explained that it is beyond or realm of comprehension.

what im saying is, there is an answer, but it isnt something that we can understand. get what im saying?

i mean its like trying to explain colors to someone who has only seen in black and white their entire lives.

[siSTARindigo]

A finite mind trying to understand an infinite place and creator ;)

[Tmar.aLL.DaYmar]

A finite mind trying to understand an infinite place and creator ;)

thankyou. except not necessarily the creator part.

[mont974x4]

I'll go along with Star on that. lol

As to the original post...if we started over with two people? I think it's a natural thing for people to look beyond ourselves for explanations. I think they would just start over with the same questions. ..how did we get here? How did this place come into being? etc. The natural progression of the search would lead to a religion of some sort. Religion in this case being defined as any belief system, whether or not involves God or not.

[siSTARindigo]

How's this.....

The finite trying to understand the infinite :)

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Religion is a part of human nature. maybe not everyone's human nature.. but just human nature in general. That's why it was "invented", that's why wars are fought over it and it's also why it'll always exsist.
As long our Human nature stays the same.. there will always be religion.

Just like there's always be stereotypes.

Look at your own post even.. You think religion is the root of all evil.. and yet you probably whole heartedly enjoy at least 2 religious holidays a year.

I'm not even going to touch the "crazy muslim" comment........


So really.. it looks like you don't know what the hell you're actually talking about. you contradict yourself so many times in your post.. it hurts my brain.

You need to think this out some more, me thinks.

Or actually experience something before you can give your NON stereotypical opinion about it.


saying religion is part of human nature is ignorant, bob.
people who resisted the religious changes back when it first appeared were most certianly murdered. in fact, i would bet that most people resisted it as well, and those who feared for their lives just gave in.

[mrpink019]

Life is a coincidence. All life truly is is a lot of matter in the right place at the right time.


I am a Darwinisit, and a large one at that. I for one don't understand why religion even exists anymore. To me religion was originally created by emotion in one of its simpilest forms: fear. People are afraid of what they don't understand, so they create false ideals to explain what they don't understand. I mean, we have come to understand that this is why the ancient Greek Gods were created( People didn't know why it rained, so they created a God that made it rain), but when we apply this to religions of the current day for some reason we say that it is untrue. Because we as a human race have evolved to the point that we now know why most things on Earth happen, we no longer believe in the God's such as Ra, the sun God. But we still don't know exactly how we were created, so we still believe in Gods. Or I should say a God, because how we were created is the only large unknown still remaining.

The human race as a whole really thinks too much of itself. I mean, we weren't even the first organism on the planet, and for some reason we think that a "God" favors us over everyone else.


Also, RastaKaze, your right, the theory of evolution is only a theory. So what? Every single form of science is a theory, believe it or not. The theory of Quantum mechanics says that atoms exist. However, it is only a theory. That doesn't matter, though, you will still say that atoms exist. We don't know for sure that they exist(Well, now we have actually seen them, but pretend this is three years ago), but we are still 99.9% sure that they exist. That is the way that science works.


Again RastaKaze, why does the universe have to be created? Why can't it just be there, and that is the way it is. I understand that that is going against some new theories on String Theory and parralel universe ssmashing against each other and the force created is the big bang, but still. I understand that the human mind can only stretch so far, and that this thought is stretching it to its current limit(You know, how you can't actually realize how big the universe is because you can't truly understand something that massive because you have never come in contact with it), but try to use your mind and think about it instead of using the mind that was given to you because of past beliefs.



Yes I can

but you see, I don't mean god in the normal sense of the word

infact, let's call it the birth of the phsyical realm

WHAT caused it?

the being/event that set time into motion is God

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

you seem to contradict yourself...


fear. People are afraid of what they don't understand, so they create false ideals to explain what they don't understand.

such as the concept of evolution... darwinism is fear of religion from where im sitting.

and religious nuts fear darwinism and reinforce their religious beliefs with mockery and such.



all in all, stop trying to explain it to others, and just philosophise and decide what YOU want to think for YOURSELF.



IMHO you're all just as bad as the people you fight. all i see is contradiction and hyppocrisy.


yes, even in myself by pointing this out, but im rather tired of it, and hope maybe y'all will stop and look at what you're doing BEFORE you do it...

[mrpink019]

you seem to contradict yourself...


fear. People are afraid of what they don't understand, so they create false ideals to explain what they don't understand.

such as the concept of evolution... darwinism is fear of religion from where im sitting.

and religious nuts fear darwinism and reinforce their religious beliefs with mockery and such.



all in all, stop trying to explain it to others, and just philosophise and decide what YOU want to think for YOURSELF.



IMHO you're all just as bad as the people you fight. all i see is contradiction and hyppocrisy.


yes, even in myself by pointing this out, but im rather tired of it, and hope maybe y'all will stop and look at what you're doing BEFORE you do it...



I understand exactly what your saying when you talk about me contradicting myself. The only difference between the two fear-based philosophies on life is that one(Religion) is based on what other people say, and on evidence from the past that is no longer credible. The other(Darwinism) is based on evidence that you can actually see in front of you, with no room for tampering by humans, unlike religions.

I usually don't like to voice my opinion because I usually don't care enough to, and I usually hate it when people actually care about something enough to have a lot of emotion about it. But I have been thinking about this topic as of late and decided to post my thoughts.

Am I a hypocrite? Yes. Should I be ashamed of this? No.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

lol yeah that's how i feel, that at the end.

no shame man :D


it's the hyppocrites who smoke tobacco and say pot is dangerous :man: they should be shot.

[F L E S H]

Fact is, we're beyond religion. It's simply not needed anymore, and clinging to it will be our doom.

Yeah, most wars and fighting have a religious component, and often also a deeper, geo-political component too, but it's too easy to stir up some fury using religion as an excuse. Look at those damned cartoons, now every muslim country is using them as an excuse to kill people. That's what it is, an excuse to do whatever the fuck you want.

Religion has been nothing more than an excuse and a tool for manipulation for centuries, used by people with power to get the masses to do their dirty work. There is absolutely no value in organized religion, it's all a sham. However, that doesn't mean we should throw spirituality out the window.

Everything about our civilization and society has evolved, from politics, to technology, to science, to philosophy and everything else. Why can't religion or spirituality evolve? Because we're "not allowed" to question it, it's politically incorrect... Don't you find it strange that if we were to talk with someone who lived 1,000 years ago, the only thing we could talk about is religion, since it's the only thing that hasn't changed in the past millenium?

Most organized religions are repositories for outdated, even barbarous, ideals and values, and that's what we have to overcome.


mrpink, you're right when you say fear is at the root of this, fear of the unknown... But today, there's nothing to be afraid of anymore, with the exception, I guess, of death...

[mont974x4]

Without religion of any sort on what do you base your values, morals, and ethics? Meaning, how do you justify your stance on ethical issues?

I think there are 4 general views.
1. relativism
2. emotivism
3. intuitionism

the first 3 are based more on gut feelings or instinct based and look inward

4. definism...looks outside of us, whether it's looking to the Bible or another ethical guide, for example


The problem as I see it is with the first 3 we can be more easily swayed. What may be the right choice now may not be the right choice in the same or similar situation tomorrow. There is also the danger of a society taking relativism to the extreme, and generally a sociopath does, "well it felt right at the time" or some such comment is most often heard folowing their capture.

How's that song go? You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything?

I have much more respect for someone that I disagree with if they can point to a reasonable explanation about why they think what they think than I do for someone I agree with that can't justify why they believe what they believe.

[Cygnus X1]

Organized religion and the bible make me laugh. My grandpa is a pastor and has had his own church for about 25 years [ever since he left my grandma and married a religious woman...who he cheated on my grandma with...hmmm :confused: ]

Look...all things aside...no one is right so far...so why argue about it when we can discuss it? Why does every religious conversation have to be a fight for the right to say your right? Religious people kill me though...in an aruguement their responses usuall tend to be something along "Because God made it." or "Because God said so." Athiest are also funny...If you truely believe in no God...why do you celebrate Christmas?

[mont974x4]

I am against organized religion.

Of course, those that point to past mistakes and hinge their opinions on that are as bad as the "holier than thou" christian.

Part of the problem is the intolerance of many of those preaching tolerance.
The flipside is those Christians that refuse to be real. I am a Christian and believe in the Bible. That being said I try to not come across holier than thou or hide my own struggles as I learn and grow through this life. Being a Christian does not mean life is always roses and it doesn't mean I am perfect.

[MoonStarer420]

Without religion of any sort on what do you base your values, morals, and ethics?

This is badly worded but I'm sure you'll get the idea:

Simple (at least in idea form), create laws and ideas that promote betterment for our species and our planet. If we set goals to help our fellow "man" and develop methods for the survival for our species.

These are just a few I can think of:
Donâ??t kill
Drop food and aid not bombs
Use renewable energy
Cut down on pollutants
Welfare
Free Medicare
Free school and college
Some sort of population limit control


Feel free to add to this list

[beachguy in thongs]

These are just a few I can think of:
Donâ??t kill
Drop food and aid not bombs
Use renewable energy
Cut down on pollutants
Welfare
Free Medicare
Free school and college
Some sort of population limit control
Legalizing Herb

Feel free to add to this list
How can you forget?

[mont974x4]

Moon,
you are heading down the socilaism/communism route. I do understand ideas, altho I disagree with them, but what do you base them on? You can't just say because it's what I feel is right because we all feel diferent. A lot of our goals may be the same but how we accomplish those goals will also differ.

For instance,
I am against welfare for people who just don't want to work. I do believe we should support widows and orphans. I do favor work programs as opposed to handouts.

I am against government run healthcare and schools. Free enterprise breeds competition and ultimately provides better products and better prices. (I honestly can't imagine having my health in a country with socialized medicine. It is not a matter of the quality of care but that of the beurocracy to get to the care)


I don't know what to say about population control..reminds me of China?


We agree on the MJ at least. lol

[MoonStarer420]

...what do you base them on? You can't just say because it's what I feel is right because we all feel diferent.
Common sense at the most. Its not based on what you feel is right. It's based on statistics and science. What physically betters the human race now, in the future, and to give every person a chance at life. These rules would be basically like your 10 commandments, only they will be enforced by real people.



I am against welfare for people who just don't want to work. I do favor work programs as opposed to handouts
What about those who physically can't, how got hurt and have no heath insurance? Or single parents? I think it would be better for them to stay at home and raise their child. And for when the kids get older, develop a program to find the parents jobs with hours for when there kids are at school.



I am against government run healthcare and schools. Free enterprise breeds competition
I'm not against capitalism. I just think we need a balance of both. Plus I'm not talking about the Government running them, only paying for the costs of the people. We would be able to fund much of what I'm talking about if we spent money on our own people instead of on weapons and war to kill others with no justification? WMDâ??s my ass.



I don't know what to say about population control..reminds me of China?.
I'm being realistic. The point is that Earth can only support so many people. What are we going to do when we reach it? People will starve. Why not try and prevent that from happing. I know we should be completely free to reproduce and all but what about taking some social responsibility?


We agree on the MJ at least. lol
What about Use renewable energy and cutting down on pollutants? Or do you think global warming and acid rain are myths?

[PureEvil760]

there always must be an answer to somthing, a beginning, an end, somthing anything to explain our existance hence religeon is born. is it possible to accept all knowlage you possess is false that there was no begining and will be no end?

[Polymirize]

Without religion of any sort on what do you base your values, morals, and ethics? Meaning, how do you justify your stance on ethical issues?

Simple. I start from a basic assumption that there is some quality of human existence in every person regardless of race, gender, economic status, or religious beliefs. By respecting that quality of existence (I guess you could call it the human spirit or soul if that helps you) rather than certain categories of people, I do my best to insure a balanced viewpoint. I never assume that I'm right on things in a way that makes other people wrong. Just like I wouldn't think you need to be stoned to death if you disagree with me on any of these points. Since I recognise this human existence in everyone, and in myself, I simply try to act in a way that expresses respect and compassion for all beings. I suppose it's a form of virtue ethics, because the "right thing" can be different in different circumstances, because all those categories that we tried to throw out earlier are just illusionary anyway...

[mont974x4]

Now we're having a good discussion. Thanks folks!

Welfare...those with real needs should be taken care of...in many cases that could mean retraining into a job they can do. The more people we have working the more money is being.

taxes...flat national income tax. Everyone helps foot the bill. No more IRS. A an amendment would be needed to outlaw reinstating the IRS or income tax.


Medicine...if laws would be enacted to outlaw frivolous lawsuits that would help keep costs down.

Education...schools are a mess. Get the governemnt out of them. Give us back out tax dollars. If you have no kids in school you don't pay into them. If you want your kid in school you pay for it and you take them where you want. If you are unhappy with a school, try another one. When your kid and your money walk away...the school will listen.

I do think we need to find a better way to protect the environment. Acid rain and pollutions certainly are real. I am not convinced either way on the global warming issue. The problem is we need a healthy balance between protecting the environment and the needs of society (and the means we need business). How do we get new energy? So many on the left want their cake and want to eat it. I think we need to open up our own natural gas and oil operations to create American jobs and American money while we also fund and develop alternative sources like nuclear power, ethanol, practical wind resources, etc.


Poly,
thanks for the input. I think at the basis we agree. We value all human life at the get go.

I haven't seen you do this on the boards but I see it a lot from the left....they spout off about their rights but as soon as a Christian states their opinion we are bigots etc. These are the people that preach tolerance but get extremely intolerant when someone disagrees with them. All I want is an open respectful discussion on the issues.

[Polymirize]

Education...schools are a mess. Get the governemnt out of them. Give us back out tax dollars. If you have no kids in school you don't pay into them. If you want your kid in school you pay for it and you take them where you want. If you are unhappy with a school, try another one. When your kid and your money walk away...the school will listen.

I do think we need to find a better way to protect the environment. Acid rain and pollutions certainly are real. I am not convinced either way on the global warming issue. The problem is we need a healthy balance between protecting the environment and the needs of society (and the means we need business). How do we get new energy? So many on the left want their cake and want to eat it. I think we need to open up our own natural gas and oil operations to create American jobs and American money while we also fund and develop alternative sources like nuclear power, ethanol, practical wind resources

well, I admit in advance to being so far left I stand beside myself. Democrats and republicans are too scared to venture far from the "safe" center ground. Anyway, I could concede most of those those, except for education. We should all pay for education. Speaking purely statistically, the higher the level of education, the less likely an individual will end up on welfare or turn to crime as a way of making ends meet. We all benefit from living in an educated society. And likewise, the best education shouldn't go solely to those families with the money to pay for it. So I suppose I have no trouble paying for education...
And as for resources, I'm always surprised when people point out other sources of oil as a solution, when oil is the problem in the first place. It's not going to last. Whether fuel resources are depleted in the next 100 years or the next 20, we know that they're not going to last forever. With that in mind we should be moving into different areas now. I see nothing wrong with investing more money into sustainable energy and creating new jobs and growth in that sector rather than opening up new oil fields which we can all agree are at best a postponement and denial of the problem.

Apparently religion doesn't exist, so it's all just politics then. :thumbsup:

[mont974x4]

I agree education is very important, however throwing money at it isn't an answer. I think it's down South somewhere there's a school that tests near teh top of the nation while spending the least per student annually. They have to be doing something right.

Maybe if the Fed governemnt were limited to actual Constitutional powers then they wouldn't need so much in taxes (another constitutionally debatable issue) then the state and local government would have more money to do their jobs...education as one of those.

I only look to other sources of oil as a short term solution. Creating more jobs, generating more income and ultimately developing better ideas in the future. We use hydro-power for electricity here and I am not far from a couple of windfarms. A lot of ranchers use groundwater down South to cool their homes and have converted their work trucks to propane. It's a start.

Oil is also a national security issue. While I don't believe this war is for oil (if it was we'd be keeping the money for ourselves or better yet invade Canada for thier oil). If OPEC nations wanted to they could cripple the global economy and send us all into chaos. Remember petrolium is used for far more products than just running my truck down the road.

LOL Religion does exist, it just exists in defierent ways for diferent people. I base my poltical and ethical views on my religious beliefs. Some people are religious in how they brush their teeth or play golf etc. Some are even religious about their anti-religious views. It really has very little to do with God.

[altagid]

I remember I thought the same thing at one time
but there is always one question that goes unanswered:
where the fuck did it all come from
and until you can answer that, you can't really say theres no god

"God" doesnt answer the question of where it all came from - it just moves it back one step - Where did God come from? And if he always existed then why cant the universe always have existed. Just because you cant explain something doesnt mean you pick the first flimsy explanation at hand. Sometimes its best to accept that you dont know and might never know.

And as to the first post. IMO human beings are born believers. (I am an atheist) In every culture, every part of the world, in every period of history nearly all men believe in a supernatural world. If there were a nuclear holocaust and the survivors grew up knowing nothing of our cultures, they too would likely end up believing in some sort of god. The human brain has a terrible weakness for a good story.

[mrpink019]

Without religion of any sort on what do you base your values, morals, and ethics? Meaning, how do you justify your stance on ethical issues?



Morals and ethics technically don't exist. In true human nature these things(as well as feelings, but that is a totally different discussion) don't exist(would you say that a dog or monkey has ethics?). The only reason they are thought to exist today is because things like religion try to explain the reasons for human behaivor through itself. For instance, if a starving man was given the chance to either shoot a man or eat a pizza and he ate the pizza, a lot of people would say he ate it not only because he was starving, but also because he had good ethics. Ethics actually had nothing to do with it. He gained nothing from shooting the man, but by eating a sandwich he prolonged his death. Therefore he acted according to what seemed to be good for him.

Humans and the rest of the animal kingdom act according to instinct, and according to their needs. Not because of ethics. Even if some one kills an innocent person, it always boils down to the fact that they are doing what they think is best for them, even if their thinking is severely flawed.


I would add my two cents to this nice discussion that you have going on about government, but as of late I have been feeling apathy towards the government and have no stance on it.

[mont974x4]

I guess it would depend on how you define ethics. If thinking in basic terms with ethics being that we decide what is good and what is bad we all have some form of ethic. We just look at diferent places to help us decide.

[Polymirize]

Morals and ethics technically don't exist. In true human nature these things(as well as feelings, but that is a totally different discussion) don't exist(would you say that a dog or monkey has ethics?). The only reason they are thought to exist today is because things like religion try to explain the reasons for human behaivor through itself. For instance, if a starving man was given the chance to either shoot a man or eat a pizza and he ate the pizza, a lot of people would say he ate it not only because he was starving, but also because he had good ethics. Ethics actually had nothing to do with it. He gained nothing from shooting the man, but by eating a sandwich he prolonged his death. Therefore he acted according to what seemed to be good for him.

Humans and the rest of the animal kingdom act according to instinct, and according to their needs. Not because of ethics. Even if some one kills an innocent person, it always boils down to the fact that they are doing what they think is best for them, even if their thinking is severely flawed.


I would add my two cents to this nice discussion that you have going on about government, but as of late I have been feeling apathy towards the government and have no stance on it.

Dude... there's all sorts of systems for ethics without appeal to divinity. A whole bunch of reasons to be a good person whether or not you think god is waiting to spank you in the afterlife for all the bad things you did.
Is piety that which is loved by the gods or do the gods love it because it is piety, my friend euthyphro? that kinda stuff. Your example with pizza that turned into a sandwich is equally baffling. Are you speaking specifically of egoism? Either your understanding of ethics is not very lucid, or you're incredibly baked (I suspect the later, pizza usually stays pizza when I'm sober).

[siSTARindigo]

The pizza turned into a sandwich! LOL!!:thumbsup:

[mrpink019]

Oh, the pizza turning into a sandwich was my fault. I thought the pizza and the starving man over for twenty minutes or so before I typed it. I suppose some of the differen't versions of it got jumbled into one post.


Oops...

[420purplehaze420]

when i was a little boy...i use to talk to god.....and i said you mother fucker!....he said YOU mother fucker!.....you gotta grow up.....and kill rock and roll, yeah he said kill rock N roll and FUCK...all the sexy people....so i did.

system of a down anybody?

yeah religion is a load of baloney

[PeopleCallMeJesus]

to argue about this subject you really have to know what exactly religion is. religion is just how somebody practices what they believe in. it doesnt have to have anything to do with christianity or other organized religions. for me, i dont know what god is and i really dont need to know. all i'm trying to do in this life is to achieve true happiness and peace of mind while gathering as much knowledge and experience as possible. so pretty much with this definition of religion, it does exist. for all of the people trapped by organized religion, you need to stop believing what people tell you to believe and start believing only what your heart tells you to believe.

[TakeFlight]

Im suprised nobody has mention that the key foundation of any religion which is faith. IF it were all explainable then there would be no reason for having faith in whatever it is you believe.

I for one do not belive in evolution, our bodies(especially our brains) are way too complex for it to all have happen by an evolutional/natural selection process. Our brain is the most complex piece of material that we know of in exsistence and we still really dont know much about it or what makes it tick. The truth is we really dont know anything about where we came from. I see evolution as a way of writing off the unexplainable which we do too much nowdays.For most people not knowing where we came from, who we came from is a scary/intimidating thought so we try and come up with ideas of how/when it all happened even though they might not make sense. Everyone needs to go through there own experiences and come up with their OWN ideas/thoughts to this subject and not base it on what other people say.

Either we arent supposed to know who/what created us or we cannot handle/understand it

[MoonStarer420]

... our bodies(especially our brains) are way too complex for it to all have happen by an evolutional/natural selection process....I see evolution as a way of writing off the unexplainable which we do too much nowdays
Youâ??re being extremely hypocritical here.


The truth is we really dont know anything about where we came from.
We know exactly where we came from and mostly how it happened. We are the product of fusion, time and force (as in gravitational, nuclear, and electromagnetic). This is all based on quantitative and observable evidence. The CMB, Doppler shifts, and globular clusters tell us "time" started about 13-14 billion years ago; simulations and elemental abundances tell us that all the heavier elements above He were produced by fusion in the insides of stars; the production of these heavier elements allowed later stars (that were created out of the stellar ash of the exploded old ones) to make planets; the origin of life is the only real fuzzy part, but experiments that simulated the early conditions on Earth shows that it doesnâ??t take much to create the basic organic compounds for life, (which I might add are fairly common in the Universe).

Where do you see a flaw? Where do you see an assumption? I think you are confusing two different questions here, how? and why? As a scientist I only care about how, and evolution is the only theory that fits and is supported by evidence for what has happened in these last 4 billion years. I donâ??t care about why, thatâ??s where your faith and un-provable arguments try to pass off as how.


Everyone needs to go through there own experiences and come up with their OWN ideas/thoughts to this subject and not base it on what other people say.
All of our technology and all of our knowledge about the world is based upon past ideas and methods. We must learn form others (mistakes and advances) to truly understand our Universe. All the while we should be skeptical of what others are trying to tell us. Donâ??t believe me in any of what I have said above? Prove me wrong and provide evidence, thatâ??s what science is all about.

[TakeFlight]

We know exactly where we came from and mostly how it happened. We are the product of fusion, time and force (as in gravitational, nuclear, and electromagnetic). This is all based on quantitative and observable evidence. The CMB, Doppler shifts, and globular clusters tell us "time" started about 13-14 billion years ago; simulations and elemental abundances tell us that all the heavier elements above He were produced by fusion in the insides of stars; the production of these heavier elements allowed later stars (that were created out of the stellar ash of the exploded old ones) to make planets; the origin of life is the only real fuzzy part, but experiments that simulated the early conditions on Earth shows that it doesn?t take much to create the basic organic compounds for life, (which I might add are fairly common in the Universe).

You are being hypocritical here, you say we know exactly where we came from and MOSTLY how it happened??? and then you spew out some scientific mumbo jumbo like you were programmed to do it and then you go on to say the origin of life is the only real fuzzy part. You contradict yourself multiple times or you just dont understand it yourself



Where do you see a flaw? Where do you see an assumption? I think you are confusing two different questions here, how? and why? As a scientist I only care about how, and evolution is the only theory that fits and is supported by evidence for what has happened in these last 4 billion years. I don?t care about why, that?s where your faith and un-provable arguments try to pass off as how.

Well the one flaw that really stands out is why this "evolutional" process has stopped or peaked, by all means please answer this for me because nobody has ever made that one clear. If we are still evolving then what are we evolving to?



All of our technology and all of our knowledge about the world is based upon past ideas and methods. We must learn form others (mistakes and advances) to truly understand our Universe. All the while we should be skeptical of what others are trying to tell us. Don?t believe me in any of what I have said above? Prove me wrong and provide evidence, that?s what science is all about.


I totally agree with you on what you just said, i should have said that differently. What i meant is that people will read or learn something and just instantly believe it without researching it and coming to a conclusion themselves.

I dont agree with science always, if somethingt is unexplainable by science then wouldnt that mean that science isnt neccesarily accurate or all true?

You should read the cosmic serpent, i dont remember whos its by but its a great read for someone like yourself

[MoonStarer420]

You are being hypocritical here, you say we know exactly where we came from and MOSTLY how it happened???

When I said I know exactly where we have come from, I mean where the atoms (heavier then He) in our bodies have come from. When I said how it happen I mean the steps from the Big Bang to where we are today, in other words the models and ideas that go along with the theory. We have proof of the big Bang, what could have been produced and from there we develop ideas of what could have happened and what we observe. Our theories are very closely related to observations, and that is how we know what has happened.


...and then you spew out some scientific mumbo jumbo like you were programmed to do it and then you go on to say the origin of life is the only real fuzzy part.

Itâ??s not â??mumbo jumboâ?� just because you canâ??t understand it. My hope was to expose you to certain ideas for you to look into. These are ones Iâ??ve been exposed to and have had to deal with in theory and practice. It was mainly a quick history of the Universe (at least what I could remember off the top of my head.)

The origin of life is fuzzy (and yes so are a lot of other things but not as major as this one.) because we donâ??t know how organic molecules could turn into RNA and DNA. Itâ??s not that it will always be unknown, just unknown for now. Science takes time and patience.


You contradict yourself multiple times â?¦

Point it out then, because I fail to see where I have.


Well the one flaw that really stands out is why this "evolutional" process has stopped or peakedâ?¦ If we are still evolving then what are we evolving to?

It hasnâ??t stopped or peaked (unless life ceases to exist somehow) evolution is continuous, but slow (in our time). It deals with the changes in genetics from many, many generations of species. The idea that is has direction is also a common misconception. It simply doesnâ??t. The environment influences the characteristics that species have. The better the trait, the better the species has at chance for survival.


if somethingt is unexplainable by science then wouldnt that mean that science isnt neccesarily accurate or all true?
I donâ??t think you can say anything is unexplainable by science. By current methods it may be currently impossible. There are many tricks and other devices to find ways around obstacles that prevent us from knowing information. I forgot who it was, but an astronomer once said it would be impossible for us to ever know what stars were made out of, then a few years later absorption lines of elements were found in the Sun and it completely revolutionized the field.

[MoonStarer420]

... I should have said that differently. What i meant is that people will read or learn something and just instantly believe it without researching it and coming to a conclusion themselves.

And I should have aknolaged you said that before but I forgot about it. It is a Major problem that a lot of people have. It's how a lot of bull shit gets started; religion/cults, conspiracies, Aliens, astrology, magic and other bullshit. Ignorance and speculation starts and fuels it all.

[TakeFlight]

alright well thanks for clearing that up

Ok so youve explained to me how we started now explain to me how other life like plants for example came to be and how they could be so diverse, are you saying it all started from one thing or what or am i not picking up on something

Last could you tell me how science explains hallucinogens specifically mushrooms? i find it curiously bizzare that psilocybin found its way into such a durable rugged species of fungus

[TakeFlight]

Also if your able to understand everything you just said you have to be able to understand how someone could be so skeptical about the subject especially something like the origin of life and how science is so certain about it.

[MoonStarer420]

Ok so youve explained to me how we started now explain to me how other life like plants for example came to be and how they could be so diverse, are you saying it all started from one thing or what or am i not picking up on something

I haven't explained to you how we've started; I said we don't currently know how life went from organic compounds to DNA. The only reason I'm certain that this did happen is that we are here today. We don't even know how common life is in the Universe. We could be the only planet with life or there could be an infinite number of planets. But the answers to that question are very far off, after all we have only looked at our own solar system so far and there are trillions upon trillions of stars in trillions upon trillions of galaxies.

The first form of life could have been one "life form" or a whole vastly different variety of them. We don't know now, but we may in the future. The origin of life is not the same as evolution. Evolution is how life diversifies after it got started. Letâ??s say you have 1 species. If you separate them (genetically) into 2 groups and allow each group to breed within itself then over enough time (though mutations and variations) they will differ so much genetically they will be unable to breed. Keep in mind this process takes millions of years and itâ??s the changes in the environmental conditions and influences by other organisms that drive the selection for these new changes. This is about as much as I know about evolution, but even without this idea I havenâ??t heard another way the fossil record and vestigial organs (like a pelvic bone in a whale) could be explained so nicely.


Last could you tell me how science explains hallucinogens specifically mushrooms? i find it curiously bizzare that psilocybin found its way into such a durable rugged species of fungus

How they influence your brain? Or itâ??s existence as a whole? Either way I have no idea, never studied them, never read anything about them. Could be human influence, could be a coincidence, or maybe itâ??s some sort of self defense system. Not sure too many animals would eat them if they made them hallucinate. I guess this last one would make the most sense, but it certainly isnâ??t the only poisonous mushroom. Plenty of mushrooms, plants, and animals would fuck you up if you ate them.


Also if your able to understand everything you just said you have to be able to understand how someone could be so skeptical about the subject especially something like the origin of life and how science is so certain about it.
Well it's taken me 3 and a half years to understand most of what I "know" now. Yea there is still some doupt in some of the theories, maybe I shouldn't have used certain so loosely, but nothing else makes sense with the observations.

[MoonStarer420]

I guess I should mention that skepticism is a huge part of science. For any hypothesis to become theory it has to be backed by strong evidence from multiple sources and by different scientists. All of the â??mumbo jumboâ?� I stated before has been past this and beat out competing theories. I donâ??t know if youâ??ve heard of the steady state theory, but that was the main competitor for the Big Bang theory. Its idea was that the Universe was infinitely old and material kept getting cycled back in to create stars. But it failed to correlate with what we see today. It was disproved by the three things I stated before. The idea is that there are always competing theories and the best one is always selected until its proven wrong or a better one comes along. In the case of evolution itâ??s the only theory, no other theory can explain what it can. I mean you COULD have a god that drives it, but it doesnâ??t change how it works nor does it give any meaningful insights into other parts of the theory.

[Polymirize]

I guess I should mention that skepticism is a huge part of science.

Except of course, when it comes to the rather painful task of self-evalutation.

As a scientist, have you ever read any of the works of Kuhn?

[MoonStarer420]

Kuhn?
nope, Kuhn who?

[Oneironaut]

Except of course, when it comes to the rather painful task of self-evalutation.

As a scientist, have you ever read any of the works of Kuhn?
"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion." —Carl Sagan

To say that science is worse than religion at self-evaluation is just flat out wrong. Do you know the difference between faith and evidence? Good scientists look at the evidence and draw conclusions from that. Faith means you just believe because you believe because you believe.

[MoonStarer420]

I just read a little about him, defenetly will check him out. When i have time.

[MoonStarer420]

... then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again.... change is sometimes painful...â??Carl Sagan

Yea I defenatly know how that is. Painful and sometimes unwilling, takes a lot of effort to ditch old ideas sometimes, even when i know their bad or weak.

[Oneironaut]

Me too. I have gone through lots of personal paradigm shifts as new facts about the world turn around my ways of thinking, but I look at it as a learning experience. To quote the Irish author Jonathan Swift, "A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying... that he is wiser today than yesterday."

[TakeFlight]

How they influence your brain? Or it?s existence as a whole? Either way I have no idea, never studied them, never read anything about them. Could be human influence, could be a coincidence, or maybe it?s some sort of self defense system. Not sure too many animals would eat them if they made them hallucinate. I guess this last one would make the most sense, but it certainly isn?t the only poisonous mushroom. Plenty of mushrooms, plants, and animals would fuck you up if you ate them.

I dont eat mushrooms to get "fucked up" in any way at all. I view them as more of a tool/learning device. I think if you take them to get "fucked up" that the little buggers will toss you around and you will get fucked up but not in a good way . It seems to me(and ive read it from multiple people) that the hallucinogenic properties in mushrooms, being psliocybin and psilocin(sp?), are in a way a key to an archive of information. Ive read from multiple sources that the indeginous people of several countries use hallucinogens for shamanic purposes like healing. Ive also read that these hallucinogens like DMT bring them down to the molecular level in their hallucinations and the most frequent sight during these trips are double helix's and chromosones and other building blocks of life. I for one cant say that this is true but while tripping i have always thought of mushrooms as something greater than people make them out to be and have always felt them trying to tell me things but most the time i dont want to listen at the moment or wasnt ready to listen. I really suggest you read up on it and even better experience it for yourself, i think anyone who can theorize about science and evolution and life should take a heavy dose of mushrooms and explore your thoughts about it.

Isnt our DNA basically a bio-organic information storage device? like a floppy disk or hard drive.....how the FUCK does science explain that

Its things like this that really make me doubt what you say and how science explains things, not that im rebuking all science, im saying that well basically science thinks it has all the balls in the world and can take on any subject and break it down, which i think is ludacris but then again i am somewhat religous so i am that way naturally, but to each his own

[Polymirize]

To say that science is worse than religion at self-evaluation is just flat out wrong. Do you know the difference between faith and evidence? Good scientists look at the evidence and draw conclusions from that. Faith means you just believe because you believe because you believe.

When did I say anything about religion?

And yeah, you're absolutely right about good scientists.

maybe you should read my posts and work with what they actually say rather than jump into your little tangents about what you want me to say.

You wouldn't want to be accused of religious zeal or anything.

Honestly, what's with you and religion? You're like rabid dog if you even suspect a person. It's like the red scare around you if some one drops the G word.

[xblackdogx]

I havn't met god. But I know for sure there is one, and im not a brainwashed fool or liar. Just think. There had some be SOME significant being/and or events that lead to our creation
The significant thing that lead to our creation was time.

[Oneironaut]

When did I say anything about religion?

And yeah, you're absolutely right about good scientists.

maybe you should read my posts and work with what they actually say rather than jump into your little tangents about what you want me to say.

You wouldn't want to be accused of religious zeal or anything.
"I guess I should mention that skepticism is a huge part of science."
"Except of course, when it comes to the rather painful task of self-evalutation."

You said that skepticism is not a big part of science when it comes to the task of self-evaluation. Well then, compared to what? Science means looking at the evidence and using logic to build suitable theories to explain them, and always leaving the theories open to rejection or modification when new evidence comes to light. If you're not doing that, you're not doing science. So what other ways of knowing about the world are there besides one based on evidence and logic, and how is possible that such an approach could ever be more self-evaluating than science?

A way of trying to understand the world that is not based on evidence and logic must therefore be based on something else. The only things I can think of are just believing what you're told and believing in something because it's comfortable to believe in it. And as far as I'm concerned, any system of beliefs like that is indistinguishable from religion.

Honestly, what's with you and religion? You're like rabid dog if you even suspect a person. It's like the red scare around you if some one drops the G word.
People are free to believe whatever they want, of course. But I think religion is a horrible idea and the world would be much better without it. When we teach our children that faith is good, that it is not only acceptable but praiseworthy to just accept things for which there is no evidence, we are damaging their abilities for critical thought.

God is a dangerous idea. To teach that there is a divine being that will enact justice is to teach that we don't have to do it here on earth. To teach that there is an eternal afterlife is to teach that earthly life is worthless. To teach that there is an absolute morality superior to humans that's woven into the universe is to teach that ethical behavior cannot be arrived at through reason and a respect for other people's happiness. It also teaches that once you know this absolute morality (all religions claim to know at least some of it), it's okay to impose those morals on others since they supposedly apply to everybody.

God is also a potentially lethal idea. What major theistic religion has not had its share of terrorists ready to spread the faith by any means necessary? There are thousands of different gods that humans have invented and believe in with absolute certainty, but there isn't a shred of evidence for any of them. Disputes between people as to the nature of God/the gods (and the nature of the absolute morality that applies to everybody) cannot be argued with logic or reason, so vehemently religious people often try out violence to resolve the confluct. As long as society thinks it's okay to teach children about the gods and their absolute moralities, there will always be people who take these ideas really really seriously and there will always be religious war and religious terrorism. That is why I am against God belief.

As Mikhail Bakunin so beautifully stated in God and the State (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bakunin/godandstate/godandstate_ch1.html):

God being everything, the real world and man are nothing. God being truth, justice, goodness, beauty, power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence, and death. God being master, man is the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his own effort, he can attain them only through a divine revelation. But whoever says revelation says revealers, messiahs, prophets, priests, and legislators inspired by God himself; and these, once recognized as the representatives of divinity on earth, as the holy instructors of humanity, chosen by God himself to direct it in the path of salvation, necessarily exercise absolute power.
...
A jealous lover of human liberty, and deeming it the absolute condition of all that we admire and respect in humanity, I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.

[Polymirize]

Compared to itself of course. Just because science self-evaluates better than religion I need to accept it as the pinnacle? not at all. I think science is begging for a new paradigm shift myself.

"God is a dangerous idea"... sure. So is freedom. So is love. So is everything that makes the human experience worthwhile.
I'm sure all religious people are just as bad as you say. Afterall, you have empirical data I presume. I'm sure that all the problems are really religious, as opposed to being cultural, or economic.

[Oneironaut]

Compared to itself of course. Just because science self-evaluates better than religion I need to accept it as the pinnacle? not at all. I think science is begging for a new paradigm shift myself.
Of course science is the pinnacle of critical self-evaluation. How could it not be? The definition of science is critical evaluation of evidence using logic to arrive at theories to explain the universe. If you're not self-evaluating, you're not doing science properly. Science doesn't need to change; only the scientists themselves.

"God is a dangerous idea"... sure. So is freedom. So is love. So is everything that makes the human experience worthwhile.
How are freedom and love dangerous? If everybody were really free and loving, what would be so dangerous about that? I think that would be a pretty non-dangerous, worthwile human experience myself.

I'm sure all religious people are just as bad as you say. Afterall, you have empirical data I presume. I'm sure that all the problems are really religious, as opposed to being cultural, or economic.
I didn't say all religious people are bad. I said religion is bad, the God myth is bad. Just the same way that racism and alcoholism are bad for society but not all racists and alcoholics are necessarily bad people (and of course, anyone is free to be a racist or an alcoholic if they so choose). Granted, there are many problems that are just cultural or economic in origin, and I would like to see sweeping changes in those areas of human affairs as well (read my signature). But religious faith is no doubt a big part of the problem, and it's wholly unnecessary.

[Polymirize]

I didn't say all religious people are bad. I said religion is bad, the God myth is bad.

How is freedom dangerous? Why do you think our country simply locks up or censors anyone who might pose a threat to them (not total, but close)? Are all possibilities safe? Of course not, some of them could be disasterous, but we have the freedom to choose. Have you ever been free? Have you ever been in love?

As for religion, I guess here's the sticky point. While you can abstract, and talk about religion, or politics, or society as it's own entity, they're always about people. These are not abstractions, they are human beings relating to larger systems outside of themselves. How far can you seperate the religious person from religion? Or the racist from racisim? Can you just pull apart the people and inter them into camps?

You're always so systematic about diagnosing the problem with society. I just worry about the day you try to eliminate it.

[OldPotSmoker]

I put this post in another forum, but after reading this most excellent debate amongst 2 powerful adversaries, I thought I would cheat and copy and paste, because I have not found a way to quote a post in one forum, and insert in another one.
So much has been said in this forum to date that ranges around a lot of 'technical' stuff, but is really a debate as to whether Religion or Science is better. The information has been out-standing, as has been the debate!:rasta: Religion is a 'state of mind', as is Science. It ALL depends on the 'Interpretation'! Without further 'adoo', I present the post and welcome your comments! --
__________________________________________________ ______________

I believe in God. In this I believe in a 'higher power' or force in the Universe. An energy channel if you will, that 'feeds on' positives from within, as opposed to negatives, which in it's very nature syphons the negativity from this 'cosmic energy'!
I also beleive that Jesus Christ walked the Earth, and don't see Dan Browns revelations in his Novel on this matter of any threat to that belief. I would have loved to talk to him!! Jesus, that is. He would have cleared up a lot of questions from me.
I believe that God is about goodness and positivity!
I believe the Bible, and the 'actual reading' of that Bible, no matter the Religion, is my 'guide book' to life!!! If you buy a fridge/car/microwave/tv etc, you get a 'Users Manual'.
I believe that the devil is about badness and negativity!
I believe that if you find an opportunity to be in a good christian church, you can 'feel' the positive energy there!
I beleive that there are opposites to everything! Up-Down. Here-There. Black-White, Good-Bad, Light-Dark, God-devil etc etc..

I do not believe in Religion! Religion is 'mans' interpretation of Gods' word. That is usually why there are so many 'different sects' or religious branches of the clergy! History has shown that it is the Churches and their Clergy, who 'interpret' the written word in almost every Religion on Earth. Eastern, Western, Middle and sides..
We then are 'told' these versions, (In the beginning.... ONLY CHURCHES were allowed to read and 'interpret' the Bible) and if you were Strong in that Church, (Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, Moslem, Jewish, Buddist, etc...) then you were taught to believe their 'dogma', or 'interpretation'. If you were not Strong or did not believe then you could seek answers elsewhere! (That was only after the Bible was printed. Thanks to the Guttenburg Press)
Catholics, Church of England, Presbyterian, Methodist, Fundementalist etc.. They ALL 'interpret' what they read and interpret and use it to their benefit or purpose. If the Church does not allow it, then they formed a breakaway group, and started again.
This has created a lot of confusion for people nowadays. Once upon a long time ago when I was a boy, it was 'normal' to go to church on Sunday morning. I loved the singing and meeting up with my friends and listening to the stories. I also loved the warmth of the people you met there.
After my sister died, my Dad seemed to take it personally, and we did not go anymore. As the years passed and I had more 'freedom of choice', I never went back to church. It was always in my mind, but never seemed to convert to actually going! (Except for the odd wedding, funeral etc)
That was until I was about 30. (20 odd years ago) I found myself in a Motel room away from home, and having nothing to read, I started reading the "Gideon" Bible. That was the start of a journey that I am still on. An amazing journey!!!
I decided to 'look' for God. My journey showed to me a heap of good things, and the bad things, manipulations of/by 'Religion'! The Church needed money so the sermons and the 'bible study' classes, all dealt with 'tithing'!!

"Which one do I choose?", "How do I go about it?", "What about Evolution and Darwin?" "Do we believe 'Science' or the slected texts spewed up by the Clergy to combat science?", "Is there Re-incarnation?", "Is there really a Heaven and Hell?" etc etc..
Questions are still there and more of them as I progress through, and are still largely unanswered!
I like to think that if following a path 'feels right', then it usually is. If you acheive benefits for yourself by becoming a better person and helping others and being mindful of others, and you grow within yourself and help others grow as well for the better, then it is a 'feel right' situation and I do it! And by "FEEL right" about something, I mean that when I have done something nice for someone, I get this warm fuzzy feeling inside afterwards. Not unknown oblivion!
That IMHO is the basis of what Religion should be.

Unfortunately in todays world, there is no longer, 'stability'. People/families, are being torn apart by the 'greed' of their fellow mankind.
We took to heart the saying: "Go forth and multiply". This Planet Earth is a sentient being. Fighting for it's survival! We take absolutely EVERYTHING from it and put absolutely nothing back. The Bible teaches to leave the fields farrow every 7 years, but do we? No we pour chemicals in to maintain the balance, but do not allow Nature to heal herself, her way!!
We suck the coal and the oil and gas out, leaving huge holes, and pollute the air using these products, then chop down the trees that filtered it all out!! (No wonder we have storms)
We quarry rock from inland, crush it up, turn it into concrete, and ALL over the world, build Mega Cities holding billions of tons of this concrete in buildings, all around the coastlines. (No wonder we have earthquakes there), (Is the Planet just trying to maintain her ballance?)
We discover from nature, new drugs, and synthesize them, and sell them for $'s. So many variants, that the bugs become immune! (No wonder we have the strain resistant Super-bugs)
Read the Bible, of whatever Religion you are looking at, and 'See' what the message means to you!! Only YOU. How you feel about it, what you think about it. Then ask others their opinions. This is informed learning and discussion. Then go out and seek a church. I found mine 3 years after I first saw it. I was just not ready then. It was no more than a mile from my home in Papatoetoe, and it had a sign out front that had this message on it: "What is missing from CH__CH? -- UR!" After months of 'seeking' the 'right' one, I yet again passed this sign, and knew I was ready. I did a U-turn, and went back to it. I walked in, sat down, asked my questions and KNEW I had come home when Pastor Rex walked out and spoke to me!!! At last.
Terrible things are being done in the name of Religion and with todays technology, questions such as yours have and will be asked.

Long though it has been, I hope I have shed a little light in your world. I wish you an interesting journey. You are asking questions, so you are already on it's path.
Get a nice cold bottle of wine, with cheese and crackers and while away a few hours by visiting this excellent site. a few cones are good too.
__________________________________________________ ___________
There are many interesting paths that we tread through life! On those paths there are pebbles, sand, stones and other interesting obstacles. It's how we handle those obstacles, that show us the 'true' path that we have trodden! They represent the past in our present, and shape the ways of our futures.

In one degree or another, you are ALL right! Just in different and with varying 'perception' of your own environments. There is no right or wrong answer, there are just answers. Right or Wrong. Does it matter? Answers are just opinions, as is mine. Opinion is a celebration of our right to 'free choice'. Freedom however, has a price. And yes, in one form or another, we ALL PAY IT!!

[Hollandica]

I wonder if there was a god, what determined what god looks like? Is his body deformed by long-term residence in zero-gravity conditions. Is his skin tanned, is it a he or a she to start with, white, black, yellow, purple. Is God human, all that kind of things.

[meesha]

Ask yourself why you are asking yourself. Therein lies your answer to everything.

Nothing is a mystery. (just needs time to unravel)

Nothing is unexplainable. (just needs time to answer)

Live your life, not your afterlife.

'Now' is precious. 'Then' can wait.

Everything else is moot. Dead is Dead.
:twocents:

[meesha]

yeah, i know a wee bit simplistic but I ran outta time.....and philosophy takes time. I'll give my 'fifty cents' when the time is better.

[F L E S H]

Ask yourself why you are asking yourself. Therein lies your answer to everything.

Nothing is a mystery. (just needs time to unravel)

Nothing is unexplainable. (just needs time to answer)

Live your life, not your afterlife.

'Now' is precious. 'Then' can wait.

Everything else is moot. Dead is Dead.
:twocents:
Don't worry, that's a great sentiment, succinct and to the point. And in essence, this is truth.

[UnViaje]

^yup, what meesha said

Foremost, I'm for plain ol spirituality. Its sad people actually believe that without religion, the world would be some '"hell" on earh' or simply a planet 'down in spirit', pretty neat paradigm to propagate in an already messed up world huh? I usually hear [from religous standing], "imagine what the world would be like w/out religion", its like, "thats what I was going to ask you." Religion is just a spiritual government. Put on an image that is desired by the majority [mostly its 1 of good cause], display and spread word of the positive effects [charity], ignore and hide all the negatives [psychosis, religous wars] which lie in a bigger picture, broader scale, right under your fukn nose.

Lastly, one [sick religous fukk] might say, its toleration of eachother's religious beliefs that will lead us to unification. Yeah right, this coming from someone who believes I will eternally suffer in an inferno for not accepting their "god", please.

like they say, it divides

[F L E S H]

^yup, what meesha said

Foremost, I'm for plain ol spirituality. Its sad people actually believe that without religion, the world would be some '"hell" on earh' or simply a planet 'down in spirit', pretty neat paradigm to propagate in an already messed up world huh? I usually hear [from religous standing], "imagine what the world would be like w/out religion", its like, "thats what I was going to ask you." Religion is just a spiritual government. Put on an image that is desired by the majority [mostly its 1 of good cause], display and spread word of the positive effects [charity], ignore and hide all the negatives [psychosis, religous wars] which lie in a bigger picture, broader scale, right under your fukn nose.

Lastly, one [sick religous fukk] might say, its toleration of eachother's religious beliefs that will lead us to unification. Yeah right, this coming from someone who believes I will eternally suffer in an inferno for not accepting their "god", please.

like they say, it divides
The fact remains that a plurality of religions will always cause strife and division. If a person believes to his core that only HE will be saved along with the people who share his exact beliefs, while everyone else on Earth is damned to eternal damnation, people of different creeds can never peacefully co-exist for any length of time, sharing equal rights and liberties.

[Dopa]

Recently I toked up a bowl and I thought wait a minute, religion can't exist and had to of been made up by man. Let's say there was a nuclear war and the entire human race was wiped out including all structures that humans made, and all the history as well. If there were two survivors who lost all memory, they would have no religion. If they had kids they would have to tell them that they don't know what happens when they die so you are going to have to wait and find out. I think religion is the root of evil in the world. Fuck the stereotype of the agnostic and atheists whom get criticized over not believing or not knowing whether or not there is a god. I think the world would be better off without religion. Look at the crazy muslims, and the christians.:D except I do like christmas.

Just because there may not be just one religon that's right doesn't mean there isn't a God. Maybe all religons were started by god. Think of it as one of them spider web diagrams that you used in school. With the main circle in the middle and sub circles leading from that. God is in the main circle in the middle that created the entire universe. Then the sub circles leading from it are the religons that lead to God who could be real. So instead of one religon being right all religons are a path to God.

[PureEvil760]

this is wierd..seeing through interdimesionality makes everything everyone says pretty much meaningless