ATTN: PRO HYDRO GROWERS!!! Your help is needed! (please!)

[GarlicToast]

I am looking for some help from someone here who is the PRO at growing hydroponically and who might be able to give a helping hand to a person in dire need! I am on my second grow ever, first turned out all men :mad:

Second group of 4 is now only 13 days old. I do have some problems, and growth seems slow. If a PRO reads this and is willing to help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.

Right now I have 4.

first: looks great, just growing slow as all can be. some leaves have twisted, just a little.
second: looks terrible, I think is is naturally deformed. "retarded" if you will.
third: Probably has grown the best and has the best roots, however two leaves on lower growth have some yellow spots on them that look like burns or something. New growth looks fine, but again... SLOW.
fourth: Some DARK green leaves on it, and now showing some signs of orangish spots... not good. a little twisting of the leaves here too.

My setup is as follows:
1000 Watt MH system. about 3.5 feet away from plants.
Room: is a closet about 2.5ft deep x 7ft long x 8ft Tall
I am using 5 Gallon buckets filled with RO/UV sterilized H20
Dyna Grow "GROW" formula 7-9-5 for nutes. added about 1 TSP of Fulvic Acid
My PH is 5.8 in all buckets and PPMs are all around 550-600
My temp is around 85 during the day and cools off to around 72 at night
lights on 24/24 currently.
Not sure of water temp. One day it seems warm, next day it seems cold.
4" Round air stones pump clean air into buckets and onto roots.
2 small fans for ventilation and circulation running.

I have recently pulled out about half the water in each resevoir and added fresh RO/UV sterilized water without nutes... PPMs at ~600

If you are a PRO grower, meaning, you grow time after time after time, and know what the heck you are doing.. (hydroponically ... mind you) please help me out. I would really appreciate it.

[LOC NAR1958]

Sounds like you need Zandor's 2 new books as I am waiting for them also. I hate for the man to have to spoon feed me. Are you using the UV like a pond or fish thing I've seen to kill stuff or is it just done when the water is RO'ed ? Are you using any Cal-Mag plus ? sounds kind of like the cal-mag. You have to add it back for RO water. Bubblers in buckets, are you keeping the water level just under the net pots ? I used dynagro my first time it did good but go for GH 3 parts when you can. Sounds like your doing things right. What kind of venting are you getting, outside air or what ?

[Herbus]

What type media are you using? Sometimes improperly flushed media can cause all of these problems.

Herbus

[Easy Roller]

Forgive me for intruding as I don't qualify as a "Pro"....But I noticed your Dynagrow formula had a higher P percentage than the N percentage.....

Most grow nutes ...at least for soil...require the Nitrogen compounds [N] to be in higher concentration to Phospherous[P] and Potassium[K] ...

During flowering the P ratio must be higher than all other compounds....It's to do with the plants different nute requirements ...

Perhaps you knew that already but it just seemed a little odd that your nute formula had a strange composition....Maybe the lack of Nitrogen is hindering growth.....plants do take a while to grow though lol and growth rate is genetic and strain dependant...

[latewood]

depending on their size...day 13 might be a little soon for nutes! By the way, generally when leaves twist; It is a PH problem

Buy Jorge Cervantes-The Indoor Bible...I got mine used, but looks Brand new at Amazon.com for 10 bucks...

[GarlicToast]

Sounds like you need Zandor's 2 new books as I am waiting for them also. I hate for the man to have to spoon feed me. Are you using the UV like a pond or fish thing I've seen to kill stuff or is it just done when the water is RO'ed ? Are you using any Cal-Mag plus ? sounds kind of like the cal-mag. You have to add it back for RO water. Bubblers in buckets, are you keeping the water level just under the net pots ? I used dynagro my first time it did good but go for GH 3 parts when you can. Sounds like your doing things right. What kind of venting are you getting, outside air or what ?

No, I buy the water in 5 gallon jugs, i just know that is how it is treated.
So I need Cal-Mag Plus? Water level right now is touching the net pots. I have read many things on this site that have said to get the GH 3 part nutes. I think I am just going to break down and get it this week.
Ventilation is outside air, sort of. I have a window open in the room that contains the closet. This window is only cracked as it is probably 20 degrees F outside where I am! But the room is a toasty 80 F due to the 1000Watt light.

Thanks for your help thus far, any further insight would be a great help.:)

[GarlicToast]

What type media are you using? Sometimes improperly flushed media can cause all of these problems.

Herbus

Hydroton balls and rockwool cubes in a net pot.

how often should one flush this type of setup? and how?

[GarlicToast]

Forgive me for intruding as I don't qualify as a "Pro"....But I noticed your Dynagrow formula had a higher P percentage than the N percentage.....

Most grow nutes ...at least for soil...require the Nitrogen compounds [N] to be in higher concentration to Phospherous[P] and Potassium[K] ...

During flowering the P ratio must be higher than all other compounds....It's to do with the plants different nute requirements ...

Perhaps you knew that already but it just seemed a little odd that your nute formula had a strange composition....Maybe the lack of Nitrogen is hindering growth.....plants do take a while to grow though lol and growth rate is genetic and strain dependant...

You are not intruding. Thank you for your post. I did notice that about the Dyna Grow, and I am probably just going to get the GH 3 part system this week and do a full flush of the buckets and use the new nutes.

Yes, I am not even sure what strain this is exactly. I was told "Shiva" but it smells like a skunk to me! LOL!

[GarlicToast]

depending on their size...day 13 might be a little soon for nutes! By the way, generally when leaves twist; It is a PH problem

Buy Jorge Cervantes-The Indoor Bible...I got mine used, but looks Brand new at Amazon.com for 10 bucks...

I was wondering about this... That is why I asked for the PRO grower in this post. I would LOVE to know what PPM levels and PH levels people are using when EACH WEEK when they are getting this incredible grows. I am pretty much wishing for day by day instructions or something, because no matter how hard I try, I seem to be making mistakes here and there.

I am going to try and post some pics of them later for all to see. maybe that will shine some light on what they each look like and help determine what my probs are if any.

I saw that book on Amazon... does it deal with Hydroponics though????

I know dirt is a little different to deal with (PH diff and everything), and I have spent all this time/ money in hyrdo, so I would like to stay this way.

[latewood]

It deals with everything and Jorge updates this book each edition...so make sure to get a late edition...This book is everything any of the experienced growers here can tell/teach you. After you have it, you will understand alot more than can be explained on these forums...and when you need help to understand something, we will be able to clarify info for you...

DAy by Day...this is hard...let's say I tell you everything you need and you get it, but everybody on the forums want to stick in there 2cents in...you start doing different things and the whole mess gets confused...

1. Read the 4ums and develop a plan to grow
2. after you develop a plan and equipment you want to use, post it and we will critique it, and set you straight. You make the choices. lw

I have grown hydro from the start. If you find my threads, you can see some Monster growth...all from DWC...I also grow in pots using Schultz Orchid Mix/perlite/peat moss...with the same nutes as hydro (awsome plants...Only difference is I have to change ph average 5.8 for hydro-6.5 for soil

Some threads of mine are...latewood's little room...Misty Blue/BBJack grow report...clones in 10 days/homemade bubbler...sticky: Madman goes aero
cloning directly to hydroton bubbler...or something like that...Look in hydro and indoor forums 4-5 pages deep for my threads,,,I have quit posting lots of pix, because I was getting too well known...later.lw

[Herbus]

Ok here is what sometimes happens. Water and nutes are allowed to dry on your media. Once the water has evaporated the nutes are left on your grow media each time you water there after some of these excess nutes become once again soluable and available to the plants roots. This excess causes slow growth, twisted leaves, and deformed plants. I know you said this is your 2nd grow are these the same hydroton balls you used for your first grow? If so how did you rinse them?

PH for max hydro yield is 5.8 - 6.5 or so. Dissolved solids in PPM for seedling stage is 450 - 600 PPM, for Vegg is 600 - 1000, and for flowering 900 - 1400. These figures will give you close to maximum growth with most varieties. I would also recommend the Jorge book it is excellent.

Herbus

[latewood]

Ok here is what sometimes happens. Water and nutes are allowed to dry on your media. Once the water has evaporated the nutes are left on your grow media each time you water there after some of these excess nutes become once again soluable and available to the plants roots. This excess causes slow growth, twisted leaves, and deformed plants. I know you said this is your 2nd grow are these the same hydroton balls you used for your first grow? If so how did you rinse them?

PH for max hydro yield is 5.8 - 6.5 or so. Dissolved solids in PPM for seedling stage is 450 - 600 PPM, for Vegg is 600 - 1000, and for flowering 900 - 1400. These figures will give you close to maximum growth with most varieties. I would also recommend the Jorge book it is excellent.

Herbus6.5 is way to high a ph for hydro (even though it is stated MJ will grow at 6.5ph...It is not an optimum ph for production)...5.4-6.0 max...most experienced growers start as low as 5.4-5.5 and let it rise a little during the feeding period...otherwise, this is good advice.

The question about cleaning hydroton is valid. You use a mild bleach solution, soak it for an hour or so and rinse rinse rinse rinse, to make sure the
bleach is ALL GONE before you re-use it.

[Herbus]

LW in my 6 years of experience I've noticed no difference in rate of growth or yeild between 5.5 and 6.5 PH. Nutrients remain in total solution throughout this range. I've tried both (6.5 and 5.5) from start to finish and they are the same in my experience. Bleach does nothing to release bound minerals, in fact it can increase toxicity even when well rinsed. LW I'm a chemist by trade and the advice you are giving may work for you but is in fact not correct. You seem a nice person I'm sure you mean well. Chances are this persons problems are caused from toxic salt build up in the media.

[GarlicToast]

Well, I guess to answer both of you guys, the answer is NO I did not re-use the Hydroton from the first growth. Its new, and rinsed.

However, I am sure one day I will need to wash it, so if not bleach, then what?

Also, if I have build up NOW, what should I do to get rid of it? And how often do you need to rinse the media when growing? Like I said its only been about 13 days and I saw problems at around day 9 or 10. All new growth seems fine other than the fact it is slow as can be.

The only thing I DID re-use from the first growth was the net pots.
And two of the buckets. But the two that I re-used does not seem to be a reflection of a problem at all.

I really need to get that book tomorrow or something!

[Herbus]

Well slow growth can be caused by many things but judging from the conditions you listed above the only thing i can think is toxic build up on your media. This is also unlikely as if this is new media toxic build up would not have had sufficent time to occur. The right thing to flush with is something to break the bond between the various calcerous / binder materials. I use Florakleen for just this reason. Bleach's active ingredient is chlorine. Chlorine is a disinfectant and so is useless for this application. The book is great but I think we covered the bases here. I would flush with 25% nute concentration and see if there is any improvement. Also a photo would be helpful.

Herbus

[Gen]

Disinfect with hydrogen peroxide. It's cheap and it works.

[GarlicToast]

I have the Pics attached. These four pics are just the first two babies. I took a top view so you could see new growth, and then a bottom view so you can see the problems that I was talking about.

[attachment=o51596]

[attachment=o51597]

[attachment=o51598]

[attachment=o51599]

I will post another with the other two plants pics in just a sec...

[GarlicToast]

Again, I took pics of top so you can see new growth and bottom so you can see my probs. It is baby 3 and 4 in this one...

[attachment=o51600]

[attachment=o51601]

[attachment=o51602]

[attachment=o51603]

And thats about it. I need these tomatoes to really take off. They are my medicine, and I wish I was joking.

P.S. Today is DAY 14 from the date I placed the seed in the paper towels.

[Herbus]

Are there any roots showing yet. If so what color are they? Looks like you may have fungus coated roots. (invisible to the naked eye but roots will be off white or brown because of it) How often are you watering and how?

Herbus

[GarlicToast]

Are there any roots showing yet. If so what color are they? Looks like you may have fungus coated roots. (invisible to the naked eye but roots will be off white or brown because of it) How often are you watering and how?

Herbus


Yes there are roots showing.
Its hyrdo... the bucket is filled with water to the bottom of the nets and there is a 4" round stone creating bubbles to the surface...

[attachment=o51610]

[attachment=o51611]

maybe that will help.
Looks white as can be to me. And compared to my roots on my first grow (pretty healthy...) they dont look off-white nor brownish.
At least in person they dont... picture makes them look a little off.

If that is the prob, how would the fungus start so soon in such a fresh new environment and how would I rid my system of it without hurting my friends.

[Herbus]

So are the roots dangling in the water or are they above the water level? Also have you checked these plants for spider mites?

Herbus

[GarlicToast]

Dangling in water.

And I check them everyday with a magnifying glass. Not to mention it is WINTER here, so I doubt there are any bugs ANYWHERE right now! lol

COLD!!

[Herbus]

Well I just noticed in your first post you say onto roots so it seems like everything you are doing is right. Just check for bugs and maybe move your light down a bit as soon as they get a little bigger.

Herbus

[Herbus]

Are the roots in any way submerged within the water as opposed to just being misted by bursting bubbles? If the roots are submerged then just raise them up so that they are no longer submerged and your growth rate will increase.

Herbus

[GarlicToast]

Thanks for your help Herbus. No bugs, so I am clueless.

My 1000Watt light does not seem as bright as it used to be, so I am getting them to send me a new one.

In the meantime, can I use those florescent curly bulbs to supplement?

[Herbus]

Pests occur indoors in dead of winter. Eggs hatch due to warm indoor temperatures.

H

[latewood]

LW in my 6 years of experience I've noticed no difference in rate of growth or yeild between 5.5 and 6.5 PH. Nutrients remain in total solution throughout this range. I've tried both (6.5 and 5.5) from start to finish and they are the same in my experience. Bleach does nothing to release bound minerals, in fact it can increase toxicity even when well rinsed. LW I'm a chemist by trade and the advice you are giving may work for you but is in fact not correct. You seem a nice person I'm sure you mean well. Chances are this persons problems are caused from toxic salt build up in the media.It is easy to quote from the bible, but I went and checked it...as far as ph; Jorge Cervantes, says, you can grow 5.5-6.5 but he and every other hydro grower I've ever met...says, 5.8-6.0 for optimum growth...you can grow 5.5-6.5, and I'm sorry, I simply don't believe that 5.5 as opposed to 6.5 would grow the plants exactly the same...different end of the nutrient uptake spectrum.

Consistency is the key to growing healthy, vigorous, high yielding plants, and for a newb...that doesn't have grow experience, you should tighten the parameters, not LOOSEN them...cause you teach him to grow at 6.5 and the next thing you know....BBaamM,,7.2ph and dying plants...especially if he/she is among the 80% of growers who can't afford an R-O unit.

2nd...Jorge also says that to clean used grow medium, such as Hydroton, use a 5% bleach solution...So does Zandor by the way! So I learned originally from the people at Advanced Nutrients; I'm sorry, but I will keep on advising people to grow the same way I learned by reading Jorge Cervantes Material/books, through trial and error and the Guidance of PHd's in the business.:)

Nice guy or Not...Look forward to many debates on growing with U. lw

[Herbus]

LW somethings are facts. I know there are not many. Here are the facts which are available on sceintific tables online. N-P-K are at maximum availability at PH 6.5. Iron, Manganese, boron and some other trace elements reach maximum availablity at PH 5.5. None of the major elements are more available at PH's you recommend. This is simply a fact, please look it up. In reference to not believing similar grow rates with differing PH's this shows lack of experience on your part and is well known to experienced horticilturalists. As far as allowing for people to screw up it's not possible for me to predict the thing's they might do and so I don't try.

Perhaps you can explain to me how clorine bleach lowers toxic salt build-up because this is just plain lacking in all common sense. Bleach is concetrated salt (sodium hypochlorite) and you suggest to use it to rid your system of other salts. Basically I was trying to answer this person's question and you chimed in with incorrect information. Just because people suggest things that lack common sense does not mean we need to keep spreading them. Some things have been throughly explored and are not debatable. I like to debate on other subjects but when someone suggests using a disinfectant ( sodium hypochlorite) to reduce calcium / salt build up when clorine bleach itself is a salt there really is not much to debate.

Herbus

[latewood]

Forgive me for intruding as I don't qualify as a "Pro"....But I noticed your Dynagrow formula had a higher P percentage than the N percentage.....

Most grow nutes ...at least for soil...require the Nitrogen compounds [N] to be in higher concentration to Phospherous[P] and Potassium[K] ...

During flowering the P ratio must be higher than all other compounds....It's to do with the plants different nute requirements ...

Perhaps you knew that already but it just seemed a little odd that your nute formula had a strange composition....Maybe the lack of Nitrogen is hindering growth.....plants do take a while to grow though lol and growth rate is genetic and strain dependant...You know, I agree with easy's accessment of the compounds too much -p- in the formula...

I apologize for not reading your original post better...It is possible that this nute solution you used is the only problem you have/had...as Herbus said back down to 1/4-1/3 strength. I think they are too young for full nutes.imho
I think I did mention this somewhere above...

anytime that you have a problem with your babies using Hydroponics; It is a great idea to 'FLUSH' with pure ph'd ROwater and mix a fresh batch of diluted nutes for tommorrow, and then full strength next week; After the plants are re-acclimated to the nutrients (and, hopefully alot healthier looking; In your eyes)...again, imho...later.lw

[latewood]

Well, maybe you got me there, Herbus Maximus is what i call my favorite plants!...I was suggesting how to clean the medium not remove salt...my mistake. I don't recall your "solution to the problem"?
I'll Bite; What do you think of Baking the Hydroton? Several people have spread that method around; Also.

On the topic of salt build-up...I don't think he ever had that problem to begin with...I think he had too strong a nute solution! Period.

Now, I may not be a Chemist or A highly knowledgable horticulturist, but I can grow the 'Hell' out of this plant...big yield, gooey and sticky...and I have used my Hydroton cleaned with a Bleach solution for 4 grows, so far. With no problem. That is all I am saying.:) later. I gotta go.lw

[Herbus]

Too strong a nute solution can be caused by old nutes seeping from the media. Some of the best growers I know are non-technical people.. They also can as you say grow the hell out of the plants. I've no dought you are successful. Baking hydroton does not work to remove salt buildup. Use Florakleen for buildup of calcerous materials on media it breaks the bond to some extent. "I have used my Hydroton cleaned with a Bleach solution for 4 grows, so far. With no problem." I also do things that don't make sense and lots of times they work out fine. All I am saying is maybe people here should stop contradicting others before they have done their homework, this has happened to me several times and normally I just don't bother but for some strange reason I did this time. Likely will not happen again.

Herbus

[latewood]

Herbus, 1st let me say, Welcome to the forums, and, I appreciate the chemical lesson! Feel free to jump in, anytime as this is how we all learn.

You know; I read these forums for 6-8 months before I decided to buy equipment for hydro...started with 3-part and superthrive. Never looked back.

Sometimes, We all get running through these forums, trying to help out; (quite a task, I must say...we have 3-4 mentors, so to speak on sabbatical...) So, I didn't mean to contradict you, I misread or failed to read correctly GT's post in the first place; causing me to respond out of turn.

We need more people who will help keep checks and balances around here.

so, if you read a post and think to yourself...That asshole must be high!!!
Well, you'll probably be right. Again welcome to CDot...latewood

PS. I will pick up some florakleen; Why not? I have everything else. Wait a minute...It just hit me. I have AN final phase...same as florakleen but different company...
Isn't florakleen GH's flush agent? If so, then you are basically saying, that a flushing agent would neutralize the salt-build-up?

Meanwhile, I will look up FloraKleen to refresh my memory.lw

[Herbus]

LW you are a gentleman. Yes GH makes it and it's mostly the same as final flush. Florakleen is better as an empty media cleaner while final flush is for reducing nutes before harvest.

Take care,

Herbus

[GarlicToast]

First off, I just want to say, that I think you were right... too much nutes and my solutions BLOWS for these tomatoes I am trying to grow ;)

I did a partial change and everything is looking great that is growing new.

Matter of fact, I am about to post another post. (does that makes sense)
I have a couple pics of a closup of one of my hopefully girls developing something and I really need an expert opinoin on it. Look for it...

It will be called.. "BOY OR GIRL?"