GOD

[siSTARindigo]

Below is an article that I found that fit very well with a discussion I have been in for some time now. It is about God, labels, science. Enjoy!
Eva
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The first thing we need to do is get political correctness out of the way. There is a separation between church and state and therefore, for the purpose of this article, we may refer to God as He. Let's make it clear God, does not have a gender. Let the usage of this word not deter you from understanding the content herein.

As Dr. Phil says, there is no reality, only perception - I say, we don't know any reality, we only have our perception. ( Many people substitute one of these words, opinion, idea, thought or point of view. They all represent the same thing, perception.) The older you become the wiser you get. I found within myself, the older I became the more I was aware that there was only one thing I knew, and that was that I know nothing. All I or anyone has is a point of view. Often when we're young and immature we tend to believe that what we have as an opinion or thought of, we tend to believe it to be a fact just because we think it's so. As we mature we begin to realize that is not the case. So let me make this disclaimer right here, this article is my perception of the truth after the result of over 40 years of searching for the truth in various ways. It is the very best that I have to offer you at this time. I have just begun my 71st year on this planet. Simply listen to what I have to say and take it within and see if it makes sense to you. If it doesn't, it is simply not your perception at this point in time and mine may change. It has been said, "still your mind and come to your senses", and there is a lot of truth in that. Hence the reason why the object of meditation is to still one's mind.


It is very important to understand that mankind communicated originally with hand gestures, grunts, groans as inflections. Hence the reason for hieroglyphics and the Kabbalah. We do know that the word God is not God's name. For the word God did not appear until approximately the eighth to ninth century A.D. It is an English word and according to the Oxford Dictionary, it notes, ruler over good and evil. We also know that God's name would probably be a sound more so than a word since original Hebrew was all consonants and no vowels. And in Scripture when Moses asked God at the burning bush who shall I say sent me his answer was in Hebrew and to the best of our knowledge was JHVH. Hebrew history points out that when Moses came down with the 10 Commandments and the second suggested not to use the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for generations the Hebrews did not utter that sound, what ever it may be and to this day will tell you in honesty they are not sure how you would pronounce it - the pronunciation was lost in time. Somewhere along the line the Hebrews added the vows to the language. When they added that vowels "a" and "e" they came up with Yahweh and as a pronunciation but since they are not sure, when they speak to one another they used the word Adonai. This word of Adonai means "the Lord", as does Allah, or Kona in Hawaii or Don in English. Someone somewhere around the 16th century used the JHVH and sounded out; ja ho va , hence the word Jehovah came into the language. Not to long ago, someone interpreted the word Jehovah to mean, I AM that I AM in English.

( This paragraph in parentheses is for those who want more information regarding the origination of the word God. The word GOD is shared by most of the Teutonic languages (Old English, Old Saxon, Old Norse, etc.); Old High German uses the spelling GOT (modern German Gott). The scholars do not agree on the ultimate root, which is probably a Sanskrit word. The word appears in some of the oldest Old English manuscripts that have come down to us, but was evidently in use in the spoken languages of our Teutonic forefathers before it was written down. Old English only exists in written form from the 9th century. The earliest known written use of the word God dates from about 825, in a translation of the Psalter from Latin into Old English.
Catholic Web Site WORD - God - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608x.htm )

So you can easily tell from the above that to asked the question "is God energy?" really is not the right question to ask. (Any of you who have any guilt that you may have broken the second commandment by saying God damn, rest easy, that is not His name.) The question would be better asked is the original prime source energy, or is energy the primal source. You can now see why we have taken the time to explain that interpretation is constantly happening and it would be wise for us to define the words herein. Now that we understand that the word God is used only to define something, it is not the name of something. We can continue on now and try to define what is meant by energy.

Physicist claim that all things come from what they call the unified field, that which we call God. From this unified field come waves, like a radio or TV wave. From these waves come energy, and from this energy comes matter. Now to change this definition into something more spiritual let us consider the unified field as the primal source, which we call God. From God comes what is called the only begotten son of God, the waves. These waves, the Christ or Spirit, in which we are connected. (The Spiritualist call this the OD, which is in everyrhing.) Then comes energy our mind (soul/emotions) and then our bodies, matter. Energy is in all matter. Look at a, crystal, dowsing rod, Taro card or any object under a microscope and you will see the molicules moving around holding that object together. ( This shows they are simply a different form of intelligent life.) So when we join our OD with that of the object, both the OD and the energy are more powerful and can be used for "good" or "evil" purposes however, we are the superior of the two. It is our energy which directs the OD of the two by means of intent!

Let's go back for a moment to the Spirit and where we are connected, bringing about individuality, and try to understand that this connection is where the duality began and that duality is what we refer to now as right or wrong, good or bad and individuality. It is the duality which creates this world. Then it is easier to understand what I was taught over 30 years ago in deep meditation, everything comes from Spirit, to the mind, to the emotions, to the body. And all healing must follow this line. ( Now you can better understand why Doctors, today, are treating symptoms and not the cause.) So the question, "is God energy"? The answer would be no. Considering God is energy would limit Him and we understand God to be limitless. If we ask, is energy God? We could answer, probably so. But then remember, we don't know anything for sure. So at this point in time we can certainly go along with the thought that energy is a part of God.

It appears at this point in time, where the waves change to energy, duality was formed, hence we have the Christ Spirit and the ego mind. And to this date there is a battle within us between the two. We need to learn to choose the Christ's way over the ego away. It was brought to our attention that the ego is simply another word to define that word appearing in the New Testament as Satan. And if you take a look at that the egoist certainly is self-centered and selfish. But the Spirit within us is also saying on the other side I AM peace, harmony, balance, love and joy. Where the ego wants for itself, the I AM wants for the good of all. And may be better understood with this little poem, author unknown.

"When you live in the past,
(with it's mistakes and regrets)
It is hard, for I AM not there.
My name is not, I WAS!

When you live in the future,
(with it's problems, worries and fears)
It is hard, for I AM not there.
My name is not I WILL BE!

When you live in this moment,
(the Present, now nothing is NEEDED)
It is not hard, for I AM HERE.
My Name Is, ( was and always will be)
I AM!

Summation - You can search, and many do, the rest of your life trying to understand God. The truth is, you are wasting your time, for a finite mind cannot possibly understand the infinite, while the infinite does understand the finite mind, (energy). Concentrate on our relationship with the Christ Spirit! The only thing that really seems to make a difference and have value is not refraining from doing or saying things because you are afraid of being wrong or punished but because you truly understand that if someone did it to you - you would not like it, so you are not going to cause that to happen to another . Worry not about words but about their meaning.



Remember - You are never to old to begin to enjoy a wonderful childhood
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http://holistichealersacademy.com/sharing.htm

*link to original

[sophiastarchild]

Thank you for this. I love it.

[mont974x4]

Pretty interesting read. Thanks for sharing it.

I'm not real into the whole energy/wave thing tho. lol

I like the poem too. God is not bound by our definition of time. If we look at that the grammar of the original text we see that He was and is and will be I AM. The author of the article obviously did a good bit of research and I appreciate that.

[F L E S H]

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/

An Atheist Manifesto


Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.


It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: Most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this. If we live rightlyâ??not necessarily ethically, but within the framework of certain ancient beliefs and stereotyped behaviorsâ??we will get everything we want after we die. When our bodies finally fail us, we just shed our corporeal ballast and travel to a land where we are reunited with everyone we loved while alive. Of course, overly rational people and other rabble will be kept out of this happy place, and those who suspended their disbelief while alive will be free to enjoy themselves for all eternity.

We live in a world of unimaginable surprises--from the fusion energy that lights the sun to the genetic and evolutionary consequences of this lights dancing for eons upon the Earth--and yet Paradise conforms to our most superficial concerns with all the fidelity of a Caribbean cruise. This is wondrously strange. If one didnâ??t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image.

Consider the destruction that Hurricane Katrina leveled on New Orleans. More than a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and nearly a million were displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm of biblical proportions would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrinaâ??s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldnâ??t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. Nevertheless, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that 80% of Katrinaâ??s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As Hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran: Their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence; their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through Godâ??s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the worldâ??s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is--and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

One wonders just how vast and gratuitous a catastrophe would have to be to shake the worldâ??s faith. The Holocaust did not do it. Neither did the genocide in Rwanda, even with machete-wielding priests among the perpetrators. Five hundred million people died of smallpox in the 20th Century, many of them infants. Godâ??s ways are, indeed, inscrutable. It seems that any fact, no matter how infelicitous, can be rendered compatible with religious faith. In matters of faith, we have kicked ourselves loose of the Earth.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish Godâ??s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: The biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the worldâ??s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion--to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions and religious diversions of scarce resources--is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

The Nature of Belief
According to several recent polls, 22% of Americans are certain that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% believe that he will probably do so. This is likely the same 44% who go to church once a week or more, who believe that God literally promised the land of Israel to the Jews and who want to stop teaching our children about the biological fact of evolution. As President Bush is well aware, believers of this sort constitute the most cohesive and motivated segment of the American electorate. Consequently, their views and prejudices now influence almost every decision of national importance. Political liberals seem to have drawn the wrong lesson from these developments and are now thumbing Scripture, wondering how best to ingratiate themselves to the legions of men and women in our country who vote largely on the basis of religious dogma. More than 50% of Americans have a â??negativeâ?� or â??highly negativeâ?� view of people who do not believe in God; 70% think it important for presidential candidates to be â??strongly religious.â?� Unreason is now ascendant in the United States--in our schools, in our courts and in each branch of the federal government. Only 28% of Americans believe in evolution; 68% believe in Satan. Ignorance in this degree, concentrated in both the head and belly of a lumbering superpower, is now a problem for the entire world.

Although it is easy enough for smart people to criticize religious fundamentalism, something called â??religious moderationâ?� still enjoys immense prestige in our society, even in the ivory tower. This is ironic, as fundamentalists tend to make a more principled use of their brains than â??moderatesâ?� do. While fundamentalists justify their religious beliefs with extraordinarily poor evidence and arguments, at least they make an attempt at rational justification. Moderates, on the other hand, generally do nothing more than cite the good consequences of religious belief. Rather than say that they believe in God because certain biblical prophecies have come true, moderates will say that they believe in God because this belief â??gives their lives meaning.â?� When a tsunami killed a few hundred thousand people on the day after Christmas, fundamentalists readily interpreted this cataclysm as evidence of Godâ??s wrath. As it turns out, God was sending humanity another oblique message about the evils of abortion, idolatry and homosexuality. While morally obscene, this interpretation of events is actually reasonable, given certain (ludicrous) assumptions. Moderates, on the other hand, refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever about God from his works. God remains a perfect mystery, a mere source of consolation that is compatible with the most desolating evil. In the face of disasters like the Asian tsunami, liberal piety is apt to produce the most unctuous and stupefying nonsense imaginable. And yet, men and women of goodwill naturally prefer such vacuities to the odious moralizing and prophesizing of true believers. Between catastrophes, it is surely a virtue of liberal theology that it emphasizes mercy over wrath. It is worth noting, however, that it is human mercy on display--not Godâ??s--when the bloated bodies of the dead are pulled from the sea. On days when thousands of children are simultaneously torn from their mothersâ?? arms and casually drowned, liberal theology must stand revealed for what it is--the sheerest of mortal pretenses. Even the theology of wrath has more intellectual merit. If God exists, his will is not inscrutable. The only thing inscrutable in these terrible events is that so many neurologically healthy men and women can believe the unbelievable and think this the height of moral wisdom.

It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God simply because this belief makes him happy, relieves his fear of death or gives his life meaning. The absurdity becomes obvious the moment we swap the notion of God for some other consoling proposition: Imagine, for instance, that a man wants to believe that there is a diamond buried somewhere in his yard that is the size of a refrigerator. No doubt it would feel uncommonly good to believe this. Just imagine what would happen if he then followed the example of religious moderates and maintained this belief along pragmatic lines: When asked why he thinks that there is a diamond in his yard that is thousands of times larger than any yet discovered, he says things like, â??This belief gives my life meaning,â?� or â??My family and I enjoy digging for it on Sundays,â?� or â??I wouldnâ??t want to live in a universe where there wasnâ??t a diamond buried in my backyard that is the size of a refrigerator.â?� Clearly these responses are inadequate. But they are worse than that. They are the responses of a madman or an idiot.

Here we can see why Pascalâ??s wager, Kierkegaardâ??s leap of faith and other epistemological Ponzi schemes wonâ??t do. To believe that God exists is to believe that one stands in some relation to his existence such that his existence is itself the reason for oneâ??s belief. There must be some causal connection, or an appearance thereof, between the fact in question and a personâ??s acceptance of it. In this way, we can see that religious beliefs, to be beliefs about the way the world is, must be as evidentiary in spirit as any other. For all their sins against reason, religious fundamentalists understand this; moderates--almost by definition--do not.

The incompatibility of reason and faith has been a self-evident feature of human cognition and public discourse for centuries. Either a person has good reasons for what he strongly believes or he does not. People of all creeds naturally recognize the primacy of reasons and resort to reasoning and evidence wherever they possibly can. When rational inquiry supports the creed it is always championed; when it poses a threat, it is derided; sometimes in the same sentence. Only when the evidence for a religious doctrine is thin or nonexistent, or there is compelling evidence against it, do its adherents invoke â??faith.â?� Otherwise, they simply cite the reasons for their beliefs (e.g. â??the New Testament confirms Old Testament prophecy,â?� â??I saw the face of Jesus in a window,â?� â??We prayed, and our daughterâ??s cancer went into remission"). Such reasons are generally inadequate, but they are better than no reasons at all. Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail. In a world that has been shattered by mutually incompatible religious beliefs, in a nation that is growing increasingly beholden to Iron Age conceptions of God, the end of history and the immortality of the soul, this lazy partitioning of our discourse into matters of reason and matters of faith is now unconscionable.

Faith and the Good Society
People of faith regularly claim that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the 20th century. Although it is true that the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were irreligious to varying degrees, they were not especially rational. In fact, their public pronouncements were little more than litanies of delusion--delusions about race, economics, national identity, the march of history or the moral dangers of intellectualism. In many respects, religion was directly culpable even here. Consider the Holocaust: The anti-Semitism that built the Nazi crematoria brick by brick was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity. For centuries, religious Germans had viewed the Jews as the worst species of heretics and attributed every societal ill to their continued presence among the faithful. While the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominately secular way, the religious demonization of the Jews of Europe continued. (The Vatican itself perpetuated the blood libel in its newspapers as late as 1914.)

Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields are not examples of what happens when people become too critical of unjustified beliefs; to the contrary, these horrors testify to the dangers of not thinking critically enough about specific secular ideologies. Needless to say, a rational argument against religious faith is not an argument for the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma. The problem that the atheist exposes is none other than the problem of dogma itself--of which every religion has more than its fair share. There is no society in recorded history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

While most Americans believe that getting rid of religion is an impossible goal, much of the developed world has already accomplished it. Any account of a â??god geneâ?� that causes the majority of Americans to helplessly organize their lives around ancient works of religious fiction must explain why so many inhabitants of other First World societies apparently lack such a gene. The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nationsâ?? Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality--belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction; societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God; each factor may enable the other; or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a societyâ??s health.

Countries with high levels of atheism also are the most charitable in terms of giving foreign aid to the developing world. The dubious link between Christian literalism and Christian values is also belied by other indices of charity. Consider the ratio in salaries between top-tier CEOs and their average employee: in Britain it is 24 to 1; France 15 to 1; Sweden 13 to 1; in the United States, where 83% of the population believes that Jesus literally rose from the dead, it is 475 to 1. Many a camel, it would seem, expects to squeeze easily through the eye of a needle.

Religion as a Source of Violence
One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the 21st century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns--about ethics, spiritual experience and the inevitability of human suffering--in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities--Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.--and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews versus Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians versus Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians versus Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants versus Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims versus Hindus), Sudan (Muslims versus Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims versus Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims versus Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists versus Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims versus Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite versus Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians versus Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis versus Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. In these places religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in the last 10 years.

In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

These facts notwithstanding, religious moderates tend to imagine that human conflict is always reducible to a lack of education, to poverty or to political grievances. This is one of the many delusions of liberal piety. To dispel it, we need only reflect on the fact that the Sept. 11 hijackers were college educated and middle class and had no discernable history of political oppression. They did, however, spend an inordinate amount of time at their local mosque talking about the depravity of infidels and about the pleasures that await martyrs in Paradise. How many more architects and mechanical engineers must hit the wall at 400 miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not a matter of education, poverty or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: A person can be so well educated that he can build a nuclear bomb while still believing that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise. Such is the ease with which the human mind can be partitioned by faith, and such is the degree to which our intellectual discourse still patiently accommodates religious delusion. Only the atheist has observed what should now be obvious to every thinking human being: If we want to uproot the causes of religious violence we must uproot the false certainties of religion.

Why is religion such a potent source of human violence?

Our religions are intrinsically incompatible with one another. Either Jesus rose from the dead and will be returning to Earth like a superhero or not; either the Koran is the infallible word of God or it isnâ??t. Every religion makes explicit claims about the way the world is, and the sheer profusion of these incompatible claims creates an enduring basis for conflict.
There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us-them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If a person really believes that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. It may even be reasonable to kill them. If a person thinks there is something that another person can say to his children that could put their souls in jeopardy for all eternity, then the heretic next door is actually far more dangerous than the child molester. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism or politics.
Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas.

It seems profoundly unlikely that we will heal the divisions in our world simply by multiplying the opportunities for interfaith dialogue. The endgame for civilization cannot be mutual tolerance of patent irrationality. While all parties to liberal religious discourse have agreed to tread lightly over those points where their worldviews would otherwise collide, these very points remain perpetual sources of conflict for their coreligionists. Political correctness, therefore, does not offer an enduring basis for human cooperation. If religious war is ever to become unthinkable for us, in the way that slavery and cannibalism seem poised to, it will be a matter of our having dispensed with the dogma of faith.

When we have reasons for what we believe, we have no need of faith; when we have no reasons, or bad ones, we have lost our connection to the world and to one another. Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: Oneâ??s convictions should be proportional to oneâ??s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isnâ??t--indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable--is both an intellectual and a moral failing. Only the atheist has realized this. The atheist is simply a person who has perceived the lies of religion and refused to make them his own.

[siSTARindigo]

UH, so anyways, glad every BUT flesh like it :) I thought it was quite thought provoking, no matter what your beliefs, that is why I posted it.

I am done banging my head against your beliefs, Flesh. As long as knowing there isn't an after life for you makes you less responsible for things you may have done.

Eva

[mont974x4]

At least that essay Flesh posted wasn't blatantly offensive and insulting as a lot of anti-God stuff I've seen.


I do find it interesting that he chose the name "flesh" lol maybe a subconcious decision based on the ongoing battle between the spiritual man and the flesh?

We all are born with an idea of something bigger than us. Almost an inutitive knowldege that there is a God. As we grow up we either choose to deny it, ignore it, or embrace it. I find it interesting that so much effort is expended to fight the existence of God.

[F L E S H]

UH, so anyways, glad every BUT flesh like it :) I thought it was quite thought provoking, no matter what your beliefs, that is why I posted it.

I am done banging my head against your beliefs, Flesh. As long as knowing there isn't an after life for you makes you less responsible for things you may have done.

Eva
ON the contrary. You don't understand atheism because you haven't put much thought into it. I don't care what hapens after I die because, um, I'm dead. I take responsibility for what I do here and now. I suffer the consequences in the present. I live my life in the present. I don't lok to get brownie points with a man upstairs so that I could have an eternal life after I die.

It seems you hinting at ethics and morality, and in that discussion let me point out that to you that religion is not the only way to ethics and morality. If we were to live according to the rules in the Bible, for example, we would stoning adulteresses, heretics and people who work on the Sabbath, not to mention homosexuals.... But we read that today and know that that is not the correct way to morality and ethics. How do we know that? Because we have another, deeper set of ethics and morality above and beyond the Bible or the Qur'an. Just another hint that Bible and its ilk are completely obsolete.

[mont974x4]

If you want to quote and discuss the Bible it is best if you actually understand it first.

First, the stoning for some sins was under the Law..Old Testament.
Second, Jesus fullfilled the Law with his death and resurection.
Third, Jesus also showed us that there is time for repentence and reconciliation because of Gods grace and mercy.

[F L E S H]

At least that essay Flesh posted wasn't blatantly offensive and insulting as a lot of anti-God stuff I've seen.


I do find it interesting that he chose the name "flesh" lol maybe a subconcious decision based on the ongoing battle between the spiritual man and the flesh?

We all are born with an idea of something bigger than us. Almost an inutitive knowldege that there is a God. As we grow up we either choose to deny it, ignore it, or embrace it. I find it interesting that so much effort is expended to fight the existence of God.
We are all born with an idea of something bigger??? First of all, that is so not true it's not even funny, second how can you prove a crazy statement like that? When we are born, we are an empty slate. That idea that there's something bigger is intilled by religious parents, by religious teachers. Let me tell you, when I was a kid, the question of God was very far from my mind, unitl my Catholic parents told that I was baptized, that would have a First Communion and a Confirmation.

My intuitive knowledge tells me there is no god whatsoever, so I'm not denying anything. If anything, atheism is extremely positive in its outlook, its just that were constantly on the defensive.

Don't go around assuming you know what other people instinctively feel or think, you will be sorely disappointed.

[F L E S H]

If you want to quote and discuss the Bible it is best if you actually understand it first.

First, the stoning for some sins was under the Law..Old Testament.
Second, Jesus fullfilled the Law with his death and resurection.
Third, Jesus also showed us that there is time for repentence and reconciliation because of Gods grace and mercy.
Ehhh... listen buddy, there are a lot of verses in the New Testament where Jesus explicitly states that we're still supposed to follow the old law of the Old Testament. If you want to look for the specific references, let me know.

[siSTARindigo]

At least that essay Flesh posted wasn't blatantly offensive and insulting as a lot of anti-God stuff I've seen.


I do find it interesting that he chose the name "flesh" lol maybe a subconcious decision based on the ongoing battle between the spiritual man and the flesh?

We all are born with an idea of something bigger than us. Almost an inutitive knowldege that there is a God. As we grow up we either choose to deny it, ignore it, or embrace it. I find it interesting that so much effort is expended to fight the existence of God.

Ditto, on all of it :) I was actually just thinking that. At least there were references.

The "theory" of GOD has been around by far the longest. I am about to start a thread on the "intuition" thing too ;)

And his efforts are quite interesting. I did some reading up, and both of his parents are hard core "religous" people. Kids who aren't allowed to find themselves, for themselves either totally rebel like flesh, sucumb to it and put their kids through the same shit, or else they break free and are able to see past the pettyness of "religion" and some of their "rules", and find themselves. That is what I find disappointing in the "church" systems.

Eva

[mont974x4]

lol The evidence comes from society. Every society looks for something outside themselves for explanations and reasons for things they experience.

[F L E S H]

Here's another exerpt from our friend Sam Harris....

"The notion that the bible is a perfect guide to morality is really quite amazing, given the contents of the book. Human sacrifice, genocide, slaveholding, and misogyny are consistently celebrated. Of course, Godâ??s counsel to parents is refreshingly straightforward: whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13: 24, 20:30, and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark.7:9-13 and Matthew 15:4-7). We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, worshipping graven images, practicing sorcery, and for a wide variety of other imaginary crimes. Most Christians imagine that Jesus did away with all this barbarism and delivered a doctrine of pure love and toleration. He didnâ??t (Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20-21, John 7:19). Anyone who believes that Jesus only taught the Golden Rule and love of oneâ??s neighbor should go back and read the New Testament. And pay particular attention to the morality that will be on display if he ever returns to Earth trailing clouds of glory (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2:8; Hebrews 10:28-29; 2 Peter 3:7; and all of Revelation). It is not an accident that St. Thomas Aquinas thought heretics should be killed and that St. Augustine thought they should be tortured. (Ask yourself, what are the chances that these good doctors of the Church hadnâ??t read the New Testament closely enough to discover the error of their ways?) As a source of objective morality, the bible is one of the worst books we have. It might have been the very worst, in fact, if we didnâ??t also happen to have the Koran."

I think you'll find references to both the Old and New Testament... Well, so much for Jesus making things right!

[siSTARindigo]

ON the contrary. You don't understand atheism because you haven't put much thought into it. I don't care what hapens after I die because, um, I'm dead. I take responsibility for what I do here and now. I suffer the consequences in the present. I live my life in the present. I don't lok to get brownie points with a man upstairs so that I could have an eternal life after I die.

Actually I believe in reincarnation, so GOD doesn't dole out my brownie points, or take them away. I DO!!!! You so don't understand me, and I SO don't understand you. I don't know how that became and argument.....



It seems you hinting at ethics and morality, and in that discussion let me point out that to you that religion is not the only way to ethics and morality. If we were to live according to the rules in the Bible, for example, we would stoning adulteresses, heretics and people who work on the Sabbath, not to mention homosexuals.... But we read that today and know that that is not the correct way to morality and ethics. How do we know that? Because we have another, deeper set of ethics and morality above and beyond the Bible or the Qur'an. Just another hint that Bible and its ilk are completely obsolete.

So sick of repeating myself....to you!! I have already told you, I don't believe every single word in the bible, any of them!! Mont does, so what! You aren't such a youngin' quit acting like It.

Eva

[mont974x4]

True, Eva. That is why I am anti-religion and for the relationship with God. It is a deeply personal relationship.

It also seems to me that most anti-religion and anti-God people usually grew up in Catholic homes. I think this may be because they experience more religion and tradition than the relationship side? Or perhaps they are taught God is out to punish them at every turn?

I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH, this started out a nice conversation. This is not the place for your athiest documents. This thread I mean, start another thread in the spirituality board if you like. But I know I am not even reading the shit, so It is just taking up a bunch of space, and making you look desperate. Now your the virtual athiest knocking of our virtual doors saying, "SEE, SEE, LOOKY HERE!"

[F L E S H]

I don't know, and I honestly don't care what you believe in. You launch some statements at me, and I reply, that's all. I've been repeating the same shtick to new members for about 1 and a half years on this board, I've been doing much more repeating that you anyway...

[Sir Les]

Doesn't The Christ call God the father, when asked how to pray?
Father being male ...thus needing a female to have a son to begin with!...virgin Mary

So the virgin birth might be possible, as being a purely Holy event...and giving God a sex of being Male...Christ the son of Jwhw, born into human form...sent into death, by God to teach us how to follow the pathway back to paradise = life eternal with Jwhw....Eden!
If we study the Genesis, we find human kind was sent out of Eden onto death/Earth...a alternate or opposite reality...what was tame in 'Eden, is now wild on Earth...and in death they had children...but did not do as God said!
What was at peace is now made violent!
And God's words when sent out of Eden, for their disobedience, were scribed out for us to follow!=Genesis
Genesis 3:17 in this reality, we are to eat of it (tree of knowedge) all the days of our lives.
Thus God gave "instruction" about that which caused us to be expelled from paradise!
This tree or plant, that God put at the center of the garden of Eden, held a prominate place, for good reason!
And we are now in a reality where there are opposites to God's instructions and will!...that we are responsible for making!
If we behold the Genesis, and think on it long enough, we can see what we are suppose to do for God is replace what was taken sinlessly from the center of his garden, repent,Correct the error of our ways, and become clean and pure of heart , mind, and spirit..respecting all God Made, on both sides of this reflection or alternate universe!

Thus violence is not in our true nature, if we follow Christ and his word is peace, harmony, and righteousness!
He points out that the commandments are not enough to gain exceptance and passage to paradise by God, but they are a stepping stone towards the truth and the doorway....so the commandments alone do not gain God's favor...Nor does planting (restoring) the tree of knowledge on it's own, gain forgiveness!
But together they complete the word of God...and thus the ones who do Gods word and fulfill it, are welcome to enter Eden/paradise/heaven...or will stand up at the end, and they will be brought before God...they will enter heaven...or new heaven and new Earth, for death will be no more!
Because they will understand God Loves all life!...Death has no value, other than what is in death God loves, and wants us to come out of death!
Some forms of life have a placement that gives them reign or function above others...that is why a tree of knowledge was at the center of Eden to begin with...Putting this back sinlessly and with a pure heart, mind, and spirit is "The Way"..And we are tested in this reality, to see if we pass the test!
God doesn't want any sin to enter his reality, because it is a fragile reality!
One has to be trustworthy enough, not to alter the construct, or foundation of its principles, and rules it functions under!

Remember Moses walked on Holy Ground, that surounded the burning Bush!
(Take thy shoes from off thy feet, for this is holy ground)... To connect to God completely, his feet needed to be bare, so the electrical vibration of the plant life he stud on, could connect through his feet to his mind!
Thus the plants were used as a transit or medium, to tranfer information from one source, to another!

Plants are intelligent life forms!

I like to believe that Marijuana is this tree of knowledge!
And that we have been given this plant to make a symatry or likeness of Eden on Earth, so that God (Jwhw) can come through into this reality, and take those who have passed on...that have done his will,are doing his will, and helping those lost on the pathway, trying to complete his word and will with Christ....Nothing more!

It all started with the garden and a tree of knowledge..it will all end with the garden restored by human hand in some form!
Acts 3:21 the universal restoration!...meaning a complete likeness of the garden, including Marijuana, and other plants humans seem to frown upon!

Now take a look at what humans are doing to this planet...do you honestly think God would let any humans into his garden that disobey his word and will?
Be honest...are we the caretakers God intended us to be?
Genesis 2:15...
And why do we judge other life, and make them outlawed, when God already judged them as being Good, or clean?
Acts 10:15



Let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no!=Logics
So read the Bible using Logics!

And I say: a healthy garden begets healthy people!

Qoutes taken from the new revised edition of the Holy Bible!

[F L E S H]

FLESH, this started out a nice conversation. This is not the place for your athiest documents. This thread I mean, start another thread in the spirituality board if you like. But I know I am not even reading the shit, so It is just taking up a bunch of space, and making you look desperate. Now your the virtual athiest knocking of our virtual doors saying, "SEE, SEE, LOOKY HERE!"
LOL!

then you tell me to act my age... I post here because at least you have a CHANCE to read them... you'd never read a text like this if a I made another topic about it anyway. Why don't you read it? are you afraid? Are you worried about some cosmic retribution if you even consider what's writen in there?

You made a tpoic, posted some stuff about God, so post about the alternative. Why don't you read and give your thoughts? It's not boring, it's well written, and it's entertaining (well, the same way a car crash is entertaining to look at...)

[siSTARindigo]

True, Eva. That is why I am anti-religion and for the relationship with God. It is a deeply personal relationship.

It also seems to me that most anti-religion and anti-God people usually grew up in Catholic homes. I think this may be because they experience more religion and tradition than the relationship side? Or perhaps they are taught God is out to punish them at every turn?

I don't know, just something I was thinking about.

That is exactly what I think. My hubby is catholic (and I am pretty sure fleshes parents were too. Dad goes to church every sunday, yadda, yadda). I got married in that church, and had to go through a lot to do so. I am not a catholic, I was LUCKY to have the privlege of using their church, since the family had such close ties. Please. And my mother in law, woman is always sending us stuff cause our son hasn't been baptized yet. OH dear god, my child who was born in sin will go to hell if I don't have him baptized before he dies. I doubt it. I prefer to let my son make his own decisions when he is old enough to understand what he is doing.

Eva

[F L E S H]

That is exactly what I think. My hubby is catholic (and I am pretty sure fleshes parents were too. Dad goes to church every sunday, yadda, yadda). I got married in that church, and had to go through a lot to do so. I am not a catholic, I was LUCKY to have the privlege of using their church, since the family had such close ties. Please. And my mother in law, woman is always sending us stuff cause our son hasn't been baptized yet. OH dear god, my child who was born in sin will go to hell if I don't have him baptized before he dies. I doubt it. I prefer to let my son make his own decisions when he is old enough to understand what he is doing.

Eva
Well, I guess there's hope for you yet... That's the most sensible post you've written.... And to shed some light, yeah, my parents were Catholic, just anybnody from Italy is Catholic. But I was never forced to go to Church, my parents aren't even very religious themselves. Let's just say that religion was definitely not an important part in our lives. Yet, as I grew older, I realized that religion is important, and it's affecting everyone, whether they believe or not, and usually in a very negative way. That line of questionning led me to what I am today.

[siSTARindigo]

You made a tpoic, posted some stuff about God, so post about the alternative. Why don't you read and give your thoughts? It's not boring, it's well written, and it's entertaining (well, the same way a car crash is entertaining to look at...)

Actually, without trying to be rude, I do find it boring. It looks like blah, blahblah, blah blah blah blahblah to me.

[F L E S H]

Actually, without trying to be rude, I do find it boring. It looks like blah, blahblah, blah blah blah blahblah to me.
How does it "look" any different from you first post? It's a wall of text, that's all.

[siSTARindigo]

Well, I guess there's hope for you yet... That's the most sensible post you've written....

If you had looked outside the box you have given religion due to your parents "abuse" for a lack of a better term, you would have seen spirituality. Religion is about all the rules, and getting as many people, and making money. Spirituality is about your own special relationship with GOD that doesn't have to take place at a church, spirit is everywhere ;)

[F L E S H]

If you had looked outside the box you have given religion due to your parents "abuse" for a lack of a better term, you would have seen spirituality. Religion is about all the rules, and getting as many people, and making money. Spirituality is about your own special relationship with GOD that doesn't have to take place at a church, spirit is everywhere ;)
Here you go on about not reading posts, and you don't even read my posts... How can we talk this way?

[siSTARindigo]

How does it "look" any different from you first post? It's a wall of text, that's all.

Well, it's very long, the material is bland, and I am SO not interested in the topic, the author, or the poster. That is how, honey ;)

[mont974x4]

As it should be Eva. Teach our kids to make informed decisions on their own...critical thinking etc. and be lifelong learners.


Les,
thanks for the post it was an interesting idea.


Flesh,
it is apparent that Sam, and you, have no idea what the Bible actually says. The danger for all of us is twisting the Word to make it fit our agenda. I don't expect you to understand. Actually, the Bible tells me that you won't. lol

[siSTARindigo]

Here you go on about not reading posts, and you don't even read my posts... How can we talk this way?

The reason I went on about not reading posts is because I was having to repeat things I have already said, over, and over, and over.

And I don't know why you want to talk to me so bad? You aren't going to change me, and I don't care if I change you.

[siSTARindigo]

Flesh,
it is apparent that Sam, and you, have no idea what the Bible actually says. The danger for all of us is twisting the Word to make it fit our agenda. I don't expect you to understand. Actually, the Bible tells me that you won't. lol

No shit, Flesh, have you read the whole bible? every single version? Do that, then bitch about me not reading your stuff, K?

Eva

[mont974x4]

LOL I don't know about every single version. Start with one and use a word study dictionary or other tool to ensure you get to the original text and meaning.

[F L E S H]

No shit, Flesh, have you read the whole bible? every single version? Do that, then bitch about me not reading your stuff, K?

Eva
Why don't you look at the quotes and discuss them? I'm pointing out to you and your buddy mont concrete passages that prove what I'm saying, but you close your eyes and you ears. Look at the fucking quotes then discuss them!

Actually, I did read the a lot of the New Testament in Ancient Greek, the first language it was ever published in. But that doesn't count, I'm just an atheist who knows nothing.

Meh, whatever, I gotta go, but I'll be back...

[F L E S H]

Just go back in the thread and read the whole conversation, it's almost funny how you people don't want to post proof, or don't want to deal with it when it is presented to you. Then you just resort to condescending attitudes that proves absolutely nothing. I'm not trying to convert anyone, all I want is for you to look at waht I'm saying, and tell me your interpretations, but you don't seem to want to do it, you just want to talk to people who agree with you.

[siSTARindigo]

Why don't you look at the quotes and discuss them? I'm pointing out to you and your buddy mont concrete passages that prove what I'm saying, but you close your eyes and you ears. Look at the fucking quotes then discuss them!

Actually, I did read the a lot of the New Testament in Ancient Greek, the first language it was ever published in. But that doesn't count, I'm just an atheist who knows nothing.

Meh, whatever, I gotta go, but I'll be back...

Meh, go on wit yor bad self......(pay backs for incling:stoned: )

I am not discussing any quotes, other that something you've said :o

Talk about closed eyes and ears! Maybe if you'd behaved like a gentleman, like mont did when we had a "misunderstanding" I wouldn't have such a bad taste in my mouth for you. You wouldn't listen to anything from us in the beginning, now you want us to read your shit.

wah, wah, wah

And I didn't say you don't know anything. I just said you don't know anything about GOD. I think that is a fair statement, being your an athiest. I am sure you know plenty :)

Eva

[F L E S H]

Meh, go on wit yor bad self......(pay backs for incling:stoned: )

I am not discussing any quotes, other that something you've said :o

Talk about closed eyes and ears! Maybe if you'd behaved like a gentleman, like mont did when we had a "misunderstanding" I wouldn't have such a bad taste in my mouth for you. You wouldn't listen to anything from us in the beginning, now you want us to read your shit.

wah, wah, wah

And I didn't say you don't know anything. I just said you don't know anything about GOD. I think that is a fair statement, being your an athiest. I am sure you know plenty :)

Eva
What do YOU know about god?

[siSTARindigo]

Just go back in the thread and read the whole conversation, it's almost funny how you people don't want to post proof, or don't want to deal with it when it is presented to you. Then you just resort to condescending attitudes that proves absolutely nothing. I'm not trying to convert anyone, all I want is for you to look at waht I'm saying, and tell me your interpretations, but you don't seem to want to do it, you just want to talk to people who agree with you.

OK, fair enough. I will read it. But this is going to take me some time. I have a 3 year old, I am getting my home ready to sell, I am buying a home in a different state, I am trying to get my taxes done, I don't have a lot of time to sit here . But I will do it just for you flesh.

The reason I don't want to debate about athiesm IS because I don't know about it. I don't know about cults either, because it goes against every grain of me, intuitively. I listen to myself, and nobody else.

[siSTARindigo]

What do YOU know about god?

Damit son, repetition is getting old. If you want to know what I know about god, look up all my posts and read them. I am sick of coddling you. Look for yourself!

[F L E S H]

Woah... I'm definitely not your son. But ok, I'll look at your posts while you look at mine :D You know, if we didn't start talking on the spirituality forum, we'd probably be great friends... :stoned:

[siSTARindigo]

I am very easy to get along with, I am also very sarcastic.

I hear what your saying, and I ask you this. Isn't it sad that we may have been friends had we met in another board? That is why I prefer to agree to disagree. But you didn't like that, remember?

But really, I am the most forgiving person in the world. Not that you need "forgiven" for anything, I am just saying that I don't hold grudges. I try to not engage in any negativity. I TRY :)

But seriously, did you read the article I posted? Does it not seem at all possible? And if not the whole part, did some of it seem possible? If no, then what, and why. If we are going to do this, we will do it right, agreed?

Eva

[mont974x4]

OK Flesh, for the sake of the discussion I will look at one of the New Testament references you posted in your quote by Sam.

When discussing punsihment by death he referenced Mark 7:9-13. While verse 10 does take us back to the Law that was given to Moses the reference is out of context. Going back to the beginning of the chapter we see the pharisees arrive. These were very religious and legalistic men. They honored tradition more than than the commandments of God. They added to the Law and treated these additions as binding as the Law. The issue they had was that the disciples had not washed their hands thoroughly as traditions dictated before they ate. Jesus corrected them. The passage that Sam used as "proof" had nothing to do with the actual subject.


I once heard someone say to read the Word with 20/20 vison. That is to help keep things in context, read 20 verses before and 20 verse after the verse you are studying.

[siSTARindigo]

If you want to know what I know about god, look up all my posts and read them. I am sick of coddling you. Look for yourself!

Actually, this article summed it up for me pretty good. I do think that I cannot comprehend god as a human though. Just like the article said, a finite mind can not understand an infinite god.

[siSTARindigo]

OK Flesh, for the sake of the discussion I will look at one of the New Testament references you posted in your quote by Sam.

When discussing punsihment by death he referenced Mark 7:9-13. While verse 10 does take us back to the Law that was given to Moses the reference is out of context. Going back to the beginning of the chapter we see the pharisees arrive. These were very religious and legalistic men. They honored tradition more than than the commandments of God. They added to the Law and treated these additions as binding as the Law. The issue they had was that the disciples had not washed their hands thoroughly as traditions dictated before they ate. Jesus corrected them. The passage that Sam used as "proof" had nothing to do with the actual subject.


I once heard someone say to read the Word with 20/20 vison. That is to help keep things in context, read 20 verses before and 20 verse after the verse you are studying.

Nice :thumbsup: I like the 20/20 thing. That makes so much sense. The bible is like a bunch of riddles to me. I guess I just don't have a lot of patience for reading long text book style material. I need action! :pimp:

Eva

[mont974x4]

I looked up the Matt 5:18, 15:4-7, Luke 16:17, and 2 Tim 3:16 references he used. So out of context I don't even know where to start. LOL OK, I'll just point out the 2 Tim 3:16 ref...It speaks to the validity of the Bible.



Eva, plenty of action in the Bible. lol It can be hard to get into sometimes. Studying the geneolgy makes my eyes cross. lol but I know its important.

[siSTARindigo]

FLEASH:
Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

SISTAR: See this is where my beliefs get tricky for someone such as you. I beieve that we chart out our lives, and bad things either happen because they were supposed to, or because someone nasty just did it, because we still have free will. Our charts, I believe, also have alternatives. It has to, because of free will. The future is not written in stone.

Hard times are when we dig deep, and really grow. It sucks, but that is why I believe we are even here. We can't "learn" anything in a perfect enviroment such as gods. So we come here, like school. Go home, "grade" ourselves, and come back again to learn something else.

Again, these are my beliefs, I don't expect anyone here to agree with me. But please just don't tear them apart, or I will exit the conversation :)

I'll be back with more....

[mont974x4]

According the Bible trials happen for a reason. Sometimes its for us to grow. For me its usually to teach me to lean on Him. Sometimes its for someone else. I may endure a trial simply so I can help someone else later with compassion and understanding.
No where in the Bible does it tell us life will be all peachy just because we are saved. In fact, it tells us the opposite. We will have trials, as I just mentioned. We will also be attacked for what we believe. (Do you think the Muslim world hates us because we are a rich capitalist society or because they view us as Christian society?)

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

SISTAR:I took the below from this link: http://www.carm.org/atheism/atheism.htm

The word â??atheismâ?? comes from the negative â??aâ?? which means â??noâ?? and â??theosâ?? which means â??god.â?? Hence, atheism in the most base terms means â??no god.â?? Basically, atheism is the lack of belief in a god and/or the belief that there is no god. By contrast, theism is the belief that there is a God and that He is knowable. I need to mention that most atheists do not consider themselves anti-theists. Most consider themselves as non-theists.
I've encountered many atheists who claim that atheism is not a belief system while others say it is. Since there is no official atheist organization, nailing down which definition of atheism to use can be difficult. Following are some definitions offered by atheists.

Finally, there is a group of atheists that I call militant atheists. They are, fortunately, few in number. They are usually highly insulting and profoundly terse in their comments to theists, particularly Christians. Iâ??ve encountered a few of them and they are vile, rude, and highly condescending. Their language is full of insults, profanity, and blasphemies. Basically, no meaningful conversation can be had with them at all.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH: It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.

SISTAR:Then your not a militant athiest? By this description, and the one I found. Just askind, correct me if I am wrong.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this. If we live rightlyâ??not necessarily ethically, but within the framework of certain ancient beliefs and stereotyped behaviorsâ??we will get everything we want after we die. When our bodies finally fail us, we just shed our corporeal ballast and travel to a land where we are reunited with everyone we loved while alive. Of course, overly rational people and other rabble will be kept out of this happy place, and those who suspended their disbelief while alive will be free to enjoy themselves for all eternity.

SISTAR:This a very narrow-minded view of people who believe in GOD. To me death is just a transition. Death is advancment of ones soul. Funerals are for the living, and when your dead, you don't care how much money you made, or who you were mad at. And I don't believe anyone will keep you out of "heaven" but yourself, by not going. For whatever reason, being ashamed, Some people have horrible deaths, and don't know they are dead. Maybe a husband caught his wife cheating, killed her and the guy, then himself, and won't go to the white light because he is still stuck in this, I will go to hell now mind set. These earth bound spirits are called ghosts. I have seen them. Again, my beliefs, maybe controversial, but FLESH wanted them, so here they are......

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:We live in a world of unimaginable surprises--from the fusion energy that lights the sun to the genetic and evolutionary consequences of this lights dancing for eons upon the Earth--and yet Paradise conforms to our most superficial concerns with all the fidelity of a Caribbean cruise. This is wondrously strange. If one didnâ??t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image.

SISTAR:See, this is what happens when and finite mind starts a story explaining an infinite place. I don't call this place heaven, I call it the otherside (of the veil). And an infintite place can not be limited in any way shape or form. And giving it a landscape does just that.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:Consider the destruction that Hurricane Katrina leveled on New Orleans. More than a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and nearly a million were displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.

SISTAR:Katrina set a stage, it opened peoples eyes to "our government". It was a huge wake up call, not onnly to how weak our government is, but how FUCKED up they are. Those people died for a reason. Also, New Orleans was like a bowl. They built damns to push the ocean back, to build! Mother nature, Father God (so to speak). This whole essay is based on the very "religion" I do not agree with. So we both agree that "religion" is screwed up. That isn't proof there is no god. It is just MORE proof that people are fucked up.

This is going to take forever......

[mont974x4]

From a biblical standpoint this life is temporary. The spiritual life is eternal. The horrible existence that it is was born of our own free will. When Adam and Eve disobeyed it brought sin into the world. All that is necessary to live in heaven forever is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. This salvation is something we receive not something we acheive. That being said, when entered into this relationship and we grow to be Christian (defined as Christ-like) we become less selfish and greedy and more loving, gracious, and merciful. This process is often refered to as sanctification. We don't do good to get to heaven we do good because we want to. When we talk about works it's a matter of the heart and your motivation.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish Godâ??s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

SISTAR:Absolutely god could stop calamities. But they happen for a reason, and death isn't as big of a deal as this article makes it out to be. Yeah, I miss people that die, but I will see them again, and I am happy for them to have moved on from this earth. And god does care, he hated to see jesus suffer. But again, it was all for a greater purpose, down the road.

As far as gods name, there article I posted spelt my belief out nicely.

And gay marriage? All god wants people to do is love eachother, respect eachother, and learn from one another. He doesn't care what you do to get off, because we all get off. So how does the way it is achieved matter?

[mont974x4]

LOL I'll leave the gay thing alone for now. One controversy at a time.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved

SISTAR: by your definition, an athiest is not the only one who recognizes this. The "saved" priest who decides who is saved, and molests little choir boys because he wants to get off, but won't marry because THAT would be a sin. And appearently this same priest's ALL KNOWING, COMMANDING GOD can't see through closed doors. So as long as you don't tell, he won't know ;)

I Think you pick the thing's I believe that seem "new agish" and totally look away from my message. We really do believe a lot the same.....

[mont974x4]

who? me? lol


I think the catholic church has done us all a great disservice. They should have hammered those priests. Of course, I don't agree with the need for a priest on earth as Jesus fills that role. I don't think its biblical to demand spiritual leaders to be single. It certainly isn't biblical to pray to Mary. I think we covered the tradition issue already.

sorry I got ona rant. ;-)

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:According to several recent polls, 22% of Americans are certain that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% believe that he will probably do so. This is likely the same 44% who go to church once a week or more, who believe that God literally promised the land of Israel to the Jews and who want to stop teaching our children about the biological fact of evolution.

SISTAR:This is sort of a contradiction. Because I know hard core catholics do not believe in reincarnation. Yes, I know jesus is special though. But who is to say that the whole 44% is this type of religious fanatic? I believe Jesus could come back, I believe I have many times over. But I don't believe god promised anybody land. And I think evolution/adaption are science and should be taught in schools. Just not as a theory involving GOD, unless you are going to teach all of them. GOD should not be something that is taught to you. It is something you come to, when/if your ready.

[siSTARindigo]

who? me? lol


No, sorry. I haven't addressed anything you said. I think I understand your belief system. And I am sure I know what your view on homosexuality is. I think our only real difference is that you look to the bible as a manual, and I don't. And that is fine :)

[siSTARindigo]

It is nice to have someone follow up with bible info though, seriously :)Specially since this essay is based on the strict interpretation of it.

[mont974x4]

Actually, the Bible says Isreal was promised land. When they came out of Egypt. Sources outside the Bible (historical texts) and even archeology is proving the Bible to be very accurate in historical matters. No other group of people have been subject to attempted annihalation (sp?) more often than the Jewish people.


I don't belive in evolution. lol no big surprise there, but I do believe in adaptation. There is a diferece...but that's in another thread.

[mont974x4]

LOL I get annoyed when people quote the Bible as evidence against itself. Makes no sense to me anyways. It's worse when they don't know what they're talking about.

Of course, part of that problem is biblical illiteracy in the chucrh itself. People just here a reference and take it at face value without checking it themselves. It makes them easily swayed.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:People of faith regularly claim that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the 20th century.

SISTAR:I don't blame athiesm, I blame people. I won't even blame all religion, or any one religion. There are good muslims, and there are suicidal muslims. It is all about people.

[siSTARindigo]

FLESH:In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

SISTAR:My belief on killing.....I do not believe in capitol punishment ONLY because I don't feel like humans get to make the decision when another dies. People die when they are suppose to. No matter what age.

This whole article is not what I believe, so I am going to stop here. I think I have proven my point. If you'd like me to continue FLESH, just ask :)

[mont974x4]

lol at least there's plenty for him to read and respond too. That should help carry the discussion further.

[MoonStarer420]

(Do you think the Muslim world hates us because we are a rich capitalist society or because they view us as Christian society?)

Neither, they hate us because were an imperialistic nation who they think (I think we are) are trying to take them over. Not directly, but by destroying their governments and installing ours. Just like we did in South and Central America.

[mont974x4]

Interesting theory. I never thought of giving people the freedom to vote and choose its leaders as imperialistic.

[MoonStarer420]

Interesting theory. I never thought of giving people the freedom to vote and choose its leaders as imperialistic.

Tell that to the South American countries where we helped to assassinate democratically elected leaders. Then we replaced them with puppet dictators that we controlled. Plus we did invade Iraq over WMD's (the original reason, not that we wanted to give them peace) because they were a "threat" to our country.

DO you think we were right to try and invade Cuba? (Well not directly) That was a movement supported by the majority of their people to oust one of our puppets. They're doing a lot better now. They may not have money, but they certainly provide for their people. Unlike our ungrateful basterds in power who will spend a shit load of money on weapons to kill people in other countries instead fixing our failing education system, welfare, social security, and health care.

We need to let countries sort it out for themselves, that way if things go wrong they can only blame themselves and not us. It just perpetuates the chaos. Look at it now! Fucking insane

If we spend money on aid instead of bombs our popularity in the Middle East would sky rocket. Before the huge, recent tsunami, Ben laden had way more support then the U.S. in the Philippians. After the wave and we gave them aid we gained like 30% while he lost it. I canâ??t find a source but I heard it from Bill Clinton when he gave a speech at my school.

It so strange to find people on here who are so different (and ignorant, no offence but its what our country has done, is doing. Besides slavery, imperialism its one of the reasons why we're so powerful.) I have to keep reminding myself that we all have one thing in common: stoned:

[MoonStarer420]

No, I'm ignorant too. Always will be, can't help it, nothing more then a good looking ape with superb verbal skills

[mont974x4]

LMAO Moon, thanks.

[MoonStarer420]

"DO you think we were right to try and invade Cuba? (Well not directly) That was a movement supported by the majority of their people to oust one of our puppets. "

Oops I ment Communist revolution by Castro instead of That.

[mont974x4]

I know that we helped install leaders we thought would be sympathetic to the US. How involved we were I'm not sure. When they turned out to be horrible people wouldn't we have a responsibility to fix it?

We know Saddam had WMD, he even used it on his own people. Where it went? My guess is Syria, but that's only a possibility. Since Saddam was a terrorist and supported terror I view the war in Iraq as part of the war on terror.

I think if we look at how we handle the after war issues throughout our history, I don't think imperialism...in its basic definition...doesn't fit. We haven't just gobbled up land in a to the victor goes the spoils mentality. We've helped the people of those nations rebuild. When they could handle things on their own we've slowly withdrawn our troops. Unless they became allies and allowed us to stage troops there to help defend them from other threats.


I do believe that since we are a strong nation, if we see something wrong and we have the ability to take a stand then we also have a responsibility to take that stand. I think its part of living in a community. If I know me neighbor is abusing his kids and I can help those kids I have a responsibility to do what I can....even if it brings risks to myself.



LOL wow we really got off topic. Sorry.

[Shelbay]

Even more off topic..Thanks for being the kind of person that DOES get involved when kids are being abused!! Most people turn their heads...so thank you for caring enough if it did happen YOU would get involved.:thumbsup:

[mont974x4]

aww shucks. ain't nothin.

[siSTARindigo]

why is there a political conversation here now? I could be wrong, since I stay away from those things, but I think there is a board for that too.....anyway.....

[mont974x4]

Sorry Eva...probably all my fault ;-P

Of course, many times religion and politics are entwined.

I do apologize for the thread hijacking.

[siSTARindigo]

I didn't even think you started it....:-P

I guess you did, dammit mont! joking :)

(I hope you don't mind me calling you that, it is easier than remembering those numbers you have)

[mont974x4]

call me whatever ya want. lol

[siSTARindigo]

Of course, many times religion and politics are entwined.



Your right, the religion described in FLESH's essay is just that. Politics, Business, Control. The article is also propaganda, because it is placing people in an 3 catagories basically. Fundamentalist, Moderate, and Athiest. That is a huge hype up. I am none of them. I am not a moderate either FLESH, so don't even think it. I read about the Mayans, the Inca, The Hopi, the Agnostics, the Christian Agnostics, Astrology, numerology, I believe in Chakras, and Reincarnation. I read about lost civilizations, who were run off or killed by these hard core assholes. Jesus was killed just like all the "witches" in Salem. Of course it was wrong!

The author of this essay was probably beaten with a bible by the priest who molested him for 10 years. :(

Hopefully this converstaion has at least shown you that there is more out there than what you believe religion to be, and your belief system (athiesm). Even people who do believe wholly in the bible like Mont can be VERY peaceful, loving individuals.

Mont knows god knows all. The people you describe disgrace god daily, even more by using his name as a reason for atrocities. Or even back to the priests, did they or did they not believe in an all knowing god. Did they think that because the door was shut, GOD didn't know what they were doing?

You see, we are on the same side. The only difference is that you say there is no god, and I say there is. :)

Eva

[siSTARindigo]

By the end of the conversation I was talking to FLESH, not Mont :) Sorry...

[mont974x4]

LOL I am may be an old Army guy but I'm at least smart enough to realize where the post was aimed. ;-P but thanks. And thanks for the compliments.

[Sir Les]

As it should be Eva. Teach our kids to make informed decisions on their own...critical thinking etc. and be lifelong learners.


Les,
thanks for the post it was an interesting idea.


Flesh,
it is apparent that Sam, and you, have no idea what the Bible actually says. The danger for all of us is twisting the Word to make it fit our agenda. I don't expect you to understand. Actually, the Bible tells me that you won't. lol


Your welcome...The Idea is a good moral to follow through on!

[mont974x4]

Always good to have diferent insites during a good discussions

[Sir Les]

Your welcome...The Idea is a good moral to follow through on!

I would also like to add that Israel the jews out of Eygpt, were promised a land flowing with milk and honey...the wilderness!
And God was with them, and told them to spy out Canaan, and take the seeds, and bring them back to the wilderness...God provided the water Already made ready out of the stone Moses struck with his staff...
So they had "free land" (Wilderness) (Water) (God)(people)..everything they needed to make their promised land out of the wilderness in peace, with out breaking any of the commandments they were already given, and told to hold dear in their hearts and minds!

The Jew chose to Go to war, and take land already made tame by other people...thus they coveted others belongings...and they murdered them to gain control of their land...This went against God's will!...Moses didn't enter this land they stole!
If you apply the commandments, and the will of God..who was with them...until the wars started...they never questioned the reason for their hardships, nor the bloodshed!
And they never tried to figure out why God has abandoned them ...Thus they now need nuclear weapons to keep what they stole!
Who wrote the Bible, come into Question, and I can see things have been added in, that are not trustworthy and true to the construct or foundation!
Nor do they agree with the commandments!..and terms of Idolatry.
So something is a muck with some parts of the Bible.
But Not with God!...he is the same, and holds up his will as being peaceful, loving all life, and being a helper in the garden himself...a Shaman...So we should also be like him...and share with every living thing.
I believe the Kingdom Of God includes many life forms.
We are just a small part of the whole, working in union...it is important to rise above the scribes and pharasies, so we learn the truth about this creator/heavenly Father, and His Son who conquered Death, and was taken up.

We can read into the Bible...If God was with them, then there was no need to go to war, to gain this land of milk and honey....breaking a commandment God established already...is in error.
And in being God, with them Jews, he could of made his paradise in a few minutes...if he could create the hole universe in six days, imagine what he could do in a few minutes with so many people working for the same goal...

[mont974x4]

Interesting idea. Where do you find any of that in scripture? You can pick which topic to start with and we can go from there. That should prove to be a nice discussion and not to much of a hijack. lol

[siSTARindigo]

Actually, I found Sir's post very interesting. I think this is all going where it is ment to. We should go with it.....

I agree with you Sir,that is why I mentioned the fact that the bible started out original books. Was then condensed into 1 book, and edited for sure by the Roman Catholic church, who WAS the grand daddy of "religion". Then interpretted, and so on.

This was also written so long ago that translation plays a HUGE role.

Look how many uses there are for the word up. On the surface you think of up as a direction, and it is. But you look things up, start up your truck, you stink up a place, you burn up a place.....

The way language was then, and the way it is now, it is really a whole new language, only worse, it sounds the same, yet means a BUNCH of things.....

I am so stoned, and I have a flu so I took a bunch of nyquil. I am going to go take a nap ;)

Eva

[mont974x4]

uh oh I think I killed the thread

[siSTARindigo]

Where are you FLESH?

[mont974x4]

I was hoping for more input from Les. I think he has some interesting views that would be fun to discuss.

[siSTARindigo]

I agree...

[dopesmoker]

i think FLESH left the thread forever.

[siSTARindigo]

I went through all that crap for no reason.....I thought we had an agreement FLESH.

[mont974x4]

well dang it. Now we gotta start another topic lol

[F L E S H]

Hey siSTAR, sorry for the absence, I was away for a little while... But I'm back now. I've read your stuff, and now I see more clearly where you stand. Thanks for that.


....However (you must have known it was coming) it is all entirely subjective. You say God can stop natural disasters, but there even more people who say God can't, or he won't, or he doesn't feel like it... Everyone has made up their own reasons why God does and doesn't do whatever. But in the end, that line of reasoning just doesn't make sense, because everyone can believe whatever they like abut God and go around saying they're right. Now, if everyone thinks they're right and everybody else is wrong, doesn't it stand to reason that everyone's wrong and makes up whatever they like to feel better about themselves, their lives?

[beachguy in thongs]

i think FLESH left the thread forever.
LMAO, it's sunday, and this is the fourth post I've read in this thread, the first one being Flesh's. :smokin:

[beachguy in thongs]

LMAO, it's sunday, and this is the fourth post I've read in this thread, the first one being Flesh's. :smokin:
Holy Shit, God must've wrote that Himself.

[Sir Les]

Numbers 13:17-21 is where I read into the message..."Behold and bring some of the fruit from the land"
and to spie out Canaan.....

Now if I were there, and God gave me commandments to hold dear in my heart, and mind...when God says to go to war over land, I would stand up and say...it is against the commandments to murder our neighbors for gain...
Thus we should not go to war!
God is testing the people!...and they failed the test..Moses doesn't enter the land they stole!..Because he knew it was wrong!
The Jew then used the cloud of God, as a weapon of fear...and that went onto new wars, and conflicts with their neighbors...to this day they are a sore spot in the land they claim God gave them...when it was taken in murder and bloodshed, breaking the commandments they say they so dearly abide by.

[siSTARindigo]

Hey siSTAR, sorry for the absence, I was away for a little while... But I'm back now. I've read your stuff, and now I see more clearly where you stand. Thanks for that.


....However (you must have known it was coming) it is all entirely subjective. You say God can stop natural disasters, but there even more people who say God can't, or he won't, or he doesn't feel like it... Everyone has made up their own reasons why God does and doesn't do whatever. But in the end, that line of reasoning just doesn't make sense, because everyone can believe whatever they like abut God and go around saying they're right. Now, if everyone thinks they're right and everybody else is wrong, doesn't it stand to reason that everyone's wrong and makes up whatever they like to feel better about themselves, their lives?

Hey, Glad your back, your welcome, and I did :)

I say god CAN stop natural disasters, but doesn't. Because it is all in divine order. The good, and the bad.

About everyone right, and everyone being wrong.....I think you were the one telling me that I can't just agree to disagree. I don't tell people they are wrong, unless they ask for it like you did. And I didn't "make this stuff up" like you would like to believe. There are way to many of UUUUSSSSS........BOO!

You have yet to explain anything on your end. Just disagree with me....hhmmmmm no wonder it took you so long to come back.

Take you time on this one, it's a toughy, I know :)

Eva

[siSTARindigo]

....However (you must have known it was coming) it is all entirely subjective. You say God can stop natural disasters, but there even more people who say God can't, or he won't, or he doesn't feel like it...

I forgot, I was going to ask you. Since you and your friend who wrote the article seem to know some secrets, what exactly are the percentages? Because your friend put us ALL in one group, and you have broken it out. I say god can stop natural disasters, yes. But you say there are even more people who say god can't, or won't, or doesn't feel like it. How many more? :confused:

Eva

[PureEvil760]

god is just pure love of which we are all a piece of, nobody can tell you truely what god is not even jesus himself..although he would be the closest. As for natural disasters and other bad uncontrollable things, you knew it was going to happen before you came here it was all a plan you have only yourself to blame. Its incredibly ignorant to believe that god looks down on us and says oh here comes a natural dissaster better stop it..acctually nah fuck it im goin back to sleep. We are in a giant class room right now..actors on a stage that dont even know who we are when we stop acting. All negativity is an illusion the only true feelings are love and humor if you start crying about somthing realize its just your perception.

[siSTARindigo]

Thank you!

Amen Pure!

Eva

[F L E S H]

I forgot, I was going to ask you. Since you and your friend who wrote the article seem to know some secrets, what exactly are the percentages? Because your friend put us ALL in one group, and you have broken it out. I say god can stop natural disasters, yes. But you say there are even more people who say god can't, or won't, or doesn't feel like it. How many more? :confused:

Eva
Uhh, I don't actually know the guy who wrote that, he's just some writer I agree with sometimes. But what I meant with that God thing is that there are some people like you who say God could control things but doesn't, there are those who say God can't control things, etc. etc. It's just an empirical observation, nothing more.

But what is it exactly you would like to know from me? I'd be happy to share. :D

[F L E S H]

Its incredibly ignorant to believe that god looks down on us and says oh here comes a natural dissaster better stop it..acctually nah fuck it im goin back to sleep.
That's exactly my point! That, and when people who've survived some accident or natural disaster say "God was with me, I'm alive because He saved me (yadda yadda yadda)". Sure, you're happy that God saved YOU, but what about the other 30,000 that die in that same natural disaster? What about the dead, dying or orphaned children? God didn't love them enough?

The worse though is award acceptance speeches... God has nothing to do with people's success, especially when it's rappers singing about killing women and having sex with their best friend... I know, I know, this has nothing to do with anything, I just had to get it off my chest.

Belief in God can lead to extreme selfishness, and causes a lot of people to miss the bigger picture.

[mont974x4]

Les,
that decision would have been rebellion. Read Numbers 14 and see how God handled the rebellious people. The Isrealites were told to go in and possess the land. God promised to drive their enemies from before them. This includes wars that it took to clear the land. God's concern was that His people would play the harlot to the gods of the people in the land. Those who chose the appeasement routte did eventually fall into worshipping false gods and they were punsihed for it.

[siSTARindigo]

Uhh, I don't actually know the guy who wrote that, he's just some writer I agree with sometimes. But what I meant with that God thing is that there are some people like you who say God could control things but doesn't, there are those who say God can't control things, etc. etc. It's just an empirical observation, nothing more.

But what is it exactly you would like to know from me? I'd be happy to share. :D

Well you called him OUR friend a while back, so I was just returning the favor :)

I would just like for you to explain how all the things that people who do believe in an afterlife can exist, if there isn't one. And Give me something from YOU, not someone else on exactly why you believe there is not a god. Evidence of this.

All I have heard from you is how wrong everyone else is. Nothing about YOU and FACTS. That is all the writer of that article did.

YOU have been the one dragging me into this converstaion, now you just want to pussy out? Come on now......

Eva

[Sir Les]

Les,
that decision would have been rebellion. Read Numbers 14 and see how God handled the rebellious people. The Isrealites were told to go in and possess the land. God promised to drive their enemies from before them. This includes wars that it took to clear the land. God's concern was that His people would play the harlot to the gods of the people in the land. Those who chose the appeasement routte did eventually fall into worshipping false gods and they were punsihed for it.


Again assumtion of making war to achieve a goal is wrong!
They were not told by God to go to war!

Yes the people rased up and questioned Mose and Aron..
They wanted to take the land by forceful measures...They saw that it was good land!...and assumed God was going to give them this land, they made plans for it...and questioned and rased up the people before Aron and Moses...rebellion?
numbers 14:10 then the glory of the lord appeared at the tent of meeting to all the Israelites, 14:11 and the lord said to Mose "How long will this people despise me?
and how long will they refuse to believe in me, inspite of all the signs that I have done among them? 14:12 I will strike them with pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.

For Moses knew the heart of God was a peaceful one!

From my understanding God was against this war they had planned out!

God doesn't need people to fight for him!
He wants obedience from the people!..he wants helpers in the garden!

I just find it odd that they would include this part in the bible, if it didn't mean something to someone then, then It does now.
Spy out Canaan and take some fruit/seed....
Now why would they do that?...God wanted to restore Eden with them perhaps?
And God mentions all the signs of glory he had performed, so we could see that anything is possible with God.

If God was going to move those people off the land slowly (as it says), then the Jews should have waited for God to do just that...In the mean time, they should have sowed some seeds, and waited out the Master builder.
Thus they don't break any commandments, and they help restore Eden at the same time with God!
I don't think that God would give them laws/commandments to uphold, and then go off and break those very laws, over land issues, when they already had land and water in the wilderness.
They could of set up shop in the wilderness, and made friends with their new neighbors!
"Love they neighbor as they self"

God says he would remove any enemy that came forth, and scatter them.
Thus he would protect the new nation with his own glory and righteousness!
And making friends in the area, would help trade routes...more nations would join them in friendship, and the world would eventually be one big garden!

Here is another odd part of the bible: Mathew 24 you cannot serve God and wealth...This leads to Idolatry, and a false Demi god...
Seems the hole world is using Money today...and then God turns his back.
Christ said Satan is already in the world...and he was right!
The complete opposite to God's will and word is showing as a face on the western industrialized world!
Saying they are free...free from what?...and making wars built up on lies, and underhanded deals gone astray..asking for human sacrifice...We can see clearly now it is for control of Oil wealth....and why these odd things are taking place with the weather, and the fire seasons have started, and the threat of plagues is ringing in my ear, while they dash blood on the taxed hand.

Are we helping in the garden if we have Ozone decay,tainted fish, sick chickens,Madcows...poisoned produce,Pollution of the elements, genetically modified foods=selfishness.
If this pathway continues, it speaks a visual language for Humankind, to all life on this planet!

Now I also Know God made covenants with them as well.

[F L E S H]

Well you called him OUR friend a while back, so I was just returning the favor :)

I would just like for you to explain how all the things that people who do believe in an afterlife can exist, if there isn't one. And Give me something from YOU, not someone else on exactly why you believe there is not a god. Evidence of this.

All I have heard from you is how wrong everyone else is. Nothing about YOU and FACTS. That is all the writer of that article did.

YOU have been the one dragging me into this converstaion, now you just want to pussy out? Come on now......

Eva
You can't say I pussied out, I just asked you to ask me your question again... I just don't understand what ME and FACTS have to do with each other, the other guy has the facts, I have my opinion.

But whatever. So, the afterlife. For as long as people have been aware of life and death, we've been trying to extend our lives, and even trying to cheat death. But the point is we can't, we eventually die, and then nothing. I think it's that nothing that people are afraid of, they're afraid of non-existence. And quite frankly who isn't? There's how belief in some sort of after-life began. Our memories of the dearly departed are what people have called "soul", or whatever other word. But they're just that, memories.

As for God, there's nothing I can say about the origin of the notion of "god" that you haven't already heard. It's not a question of evidence for and against, that's ultimately pointless, as is any search for the "true" Jesus. A simple reflection on the history of humanity, of language, of philosophy along with the 21st century knowledge we have come to acquire can shred any argument in favor of any deity. Period. The problem of taking such logic to it's conclusion is all the political, economic, sociological factors. That is, I realize you can't just yank out religion on any given morning and expect the world to be a better place. But I guess I'm a little utopian in believing that it could happen, and the world would be better off for it.

[mont974x4]

Every reference to the word "possess" from Genesis until Job is the Hebrew word...yarash meanming to occupy by driving out, to seize. Beginning in Job there are a few instances where the original word is alah...meaning curse. The other word is nachal...talks more about an inheritance.

This has nothing to do with a new Eden.

No where are we told to be friends with the world. In fact, we supposed to be in the world...not of it. Otherwise, we are no diferent and nothing matters.

The people were punished for not trusting God and for not being obedient.


There is nothing worng with money, it's how we use it. When we make money, jobs, possessions, etc more imprtant than God then it is idolotry.

[siSTARindigo]

You can't say I pussied out, I just asked you to ask me your question again... I just don't understand what ME and FACTS have to do with each other, the other guy has the facts, I have my opinion.



I am so messing with you :D I really don't care, I am not one of those "god-believers" who thinks I have to save everyone. The only reason I picked on you is because you couldn't agree to disagree :)

I think I have proven my point. You said we may have been friends had we met on another board. I say we are friends.

I'm cool with your belief, seriouosly. I hope one day you can be cool with mine :)

[Sir Les]

Every reference to the word "possess" from Genesis until Job is the Hebrew word...yarash meanming to occupy by driving out, to seize. Beginning in Job there are a few instances where the original word is alah...meaning curse. The other word is nachal...talks more about an inheritance.

This has nothing to do with a new Eden.

No where are we told to be friends with the world. In fact, we supposed to be in the world...not of it. Otherwise, we are no diferent and nothing matters.

The people were punished for not trusting God and for not being obedient.


There is nothing worng with money, it's how we use it. When we make money, jobs, possessions, etc more imprtant than God then it is idolotry.

Well according to what I'm reading (New revised edition) God says he made Humankind (Adam and Eve) To be caretakers of the garden of Eden, Genesis 2:15.
Before Eve was made, Adam named all the creatures with God.
So Adam knew them, In Eden.
After being kicked out of Eden...Adam and Eve found the creatures different, wild, and God said Genesis 3:19 by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken.
Thus we are now part of the ground...
To dust...what grows on the dust...plants.
So now we have a symbiotic relationships with plants!
We live off them, they live off Us.

Genesis 8:20-22, 9:8-11 god makes covenannts with every thing out of the ark.

Money starts out as a ingraven image, and then it is stamped onto paper, and coins...
It says not to have these things for they are Idols!
You CANNOT SERVE TWO MASTERS..."cannot" means what it says!
My Mother says the same thing, it's how you use it that matters...
I say if you hold this, and use it, you then believe in it...and give it power over you.
Now it is being placed over everything,,,everything is being reduced to it!
And this is where we are going too far with giving it power!
And subjecting our wills over the other life living here as our neighbors!
reducing them to a profit margin...

"Love thy neighbor as thy self." that would include them other life forms!

Christ says look at the birds of the air, they toil not, and herd no animals, and flock no sheep, but God loves them, and feeds them.
So I Believe we are to respect them other life forms, and honor God by keeping them with us in good order, healthy, and well fed.:rasta:
Now that Marijuana plant comes into play, with healthy seeds, to feed the birds, and the cattle, insects with...and some for us...

[F L E S H]

I am so messing with you :D I really don't care, I am not one of those "god-believers" who thinks I have to save everyone. The only reason I picked on you is because you couldn't agree to disagree :)

I think I have proven my point. You said we may have been friends had we met on another board. I say we are friends.

I'm cool with your belief, seriouosly. I hope one day you can be cool with mine :)
We cool honey :)

I always lose my mind everytime I realize not EVERYBODY on this planet thinks the same way I do :dance: :dance: :dance:

[F L E S H]

Christ says look at the birds of the air, they toil not, and herd no animals, and flock no sheep, but God loves them, and feeds them.
So I Believe we are to respect them other life forms, and honor God by keeping them with us in good order, healthy, and well fed.
Now that Marijuana plant comes into play, with healthy seeds, to feed the birds, and the cattle, insects with...and some for us...

Yet more bible wierdness... Birds toil not? Birds are some of the hardest workers in the animal kingdom. They don't just look pretty flying and playing in the air. They have to build nests, find a mate, find food, both for themselves and their offspring, and this is to be repeated every year. God doesn't do anything for the poor little birdies, they have to do it all themselves! That's why birds are atheist.

[mont974x4]

Les,
those references have nothing to do with establishing a new Eden. I would caution you to be wary of what version of the Bible you use. Some are farther away from the original text than others. I think Youngs Literal Translation is the most accurate one available now. I also use Strong's concordance in order to see what the original text was and what it meant.

I agree, the animals and plants were put here for us....food, clothes, medicine, etc.


Whether money etc. controls you us up to you. It's part of our personal relationship with Him. If something is an issue for you then by all means take extra precaution, however, don't push those same precautions on others. Alcohol is a good example. The Bible says to not be drunk, never are we told to completely abstain. However, if we know it's an issue for us then we are wise to abstain so we aren't tempted. The flipside is that even tho I may be able to a drink with supper, if I know someone will be eating with me that does have an issue with alcohol I must be sensitive to that and not create a stumbling block.

Flesh,
Birds do not toil as earthbound creatures do, but I don't know what reference he is using. God certainly does a lot for birds. He gave them the survival instincts to fly South, hunt for food, etc. Have you ever sat and watched a flock of geese fly South? It's amazing to watch their formation transition as birds get tired etc.

[siSTARindigo]

An iteresting fact about birds......from the movie the march of penguins:)

Penguins ARE birds, yet they don't fly, and they are amazing swimmers. They also travel miles every year to their mating ground which is the thickest part of the ice. Every year, after they have gone to the mating grounds, and are headed back to water to eat (they go for months without food) their path is disrupted. The ice moves, so every year there is a new ice mountain, or whatever in their way. But on camera the men who made this film watched as they stood there for a minute or so, befor ituitively taking a sharp turn, and continue on their way. Always making it there and back intuitively, as the landscape changes constantly up there.

You think a birds life is hard, watch this movie (there are 2 versions, the informative one is WAY better than the "movie" one). I really felt bad for the males :(

Anyway, Sorry to inturupt ;)

[mont974x4]

I helped my son study penguins for school project last year. Did you know South America has a large penguin population? I think it was the rock penguin? I can't remember, there are a few types.

[siSTARindigo]

I didn't know there were different types. That movie was really good.

[mont974x4]

There's a handful of diferent types. I apologize I can't remember them all. lol

[Sir Les]

Les,
those references have nothing to do with establishing a new Eden. I would caution you to be wary of what version of the Bible you use. Some are farther away from the original text than others. I think Youngs Literal Translation is the most accurate one available now. I also use Strong's concordance in order to see what the original text was and what it meant.

I agree, the animals and plants were put here for us....food, clothes, medicine, etc.


Whether money etc. controls you us up to you. It's part of our personal relationship with Him. If something is an issue for you then by all means take extra precaution, however, don't push those same precautions on others. Alcohol is a good example. The Bible says to not be drunk, never are we told to completely abstain. However, if we know it's an issue for us then we are wise to abstain so we aren't tempted. The flipside is that even tho I may be able to a drink with supper, if I know someone will be eating with me that does have an issue with alcohol I must be sensitive to that and not create a stumbling block.

.

Yes I know the Bible has been doctored up in some places, and parts are missing in other places, which brings about confusion, and contradiction...
But the animals, Plants, and Insects, are going to have a say in our judgment...a reconning will come from them.
I believe these creatures are all intelligent, and understand the holy spirit!
"most of them out of the Ark" that is.
If God is a God Of Love, and he makes life, then I'm sure he loves Life that he made...and made a place for them where they can be safe from us!
Yes the Birds make their homes,and hunt for food, and water..but that is all they do...they don't build monuments...nor flock their favorite food into barns.
They haven't canned up there food, and made stores to sell it in...and they haven't taken away anything god made from the creation, because of control issues, and oppression of others....we are given dominion over them, that means to care for, and respect them...taken in thanksgiving..
Birds, All they do is make nests, multiply, and eat what God has made for them.
Hemp is part of that feed!
So we are given the responcibilty to make sure hemp marijuana is sowed on the corners of the feilds...so they can have healthy immune systems.
If the Bird is healthy, then the shit that come out of them will be healthy...and remember they shit on everything...so it reduces sickeness!
Now if we feed this seed to cows, does it help their immune systems?
I believe it would!...Mice too?,,,most probably!
Thus no need for expensive anti biotics, and growth hormones...feed them pellets containing hemp and the seed...

Once we learn how to take care of everything, we become helpers of them.
And then we will be ready for Eden...cause we would have made Eden for our selves on Earth somewhere as a symbolic jesture or trial...hopefully sinlessly Like Christ said ...then that doorway can be opened to the new heaven and new Earth...because we can be trusted with it, Not to spoil the working members that have made a promise with God to unite in a symbiotic relationship to keep us, and make us kind...non violent.

The universal restoration is going to be completed By a sinless Human form!
Acts:3:21
Acts 10:15
We are not to judge what God has made clean (or called Good) Do not second judge God...unless it contradicts with the commandments, and covenants.

My new revised edition is sufficant enough to put me on the pathway to Christ and the holy spirit!
My reality is also part of my learning experience, and I have seen odd things that mean something to me, that only God could make happen.
One of a kind things.
And somethings are smarter than they let on to be!
So I could be onto something...I will continue to sow my seed in secret, and hold up a candle for Christs return.
For I know God can do anything, if he made all this in six days..

It is not what I'm pushing onto others, but rather what is being pushed onto me!..or that which I have been born into...
And I cannot except it, because it is now tied to bloodshed of brothers and sisters round the world for generations.
It hasn't cured the poor and suffering...
And we are now under Atomic Bombs for protection?
All while polluting and defiling the Eco systems elements......Eden is fading away from my vision.
We aren't gona make it , if we don't try now!

The Bibles that I do have are enough, and sufficent to bring me into a mindset on God's will, and word.....that doesn't change!.
Once you find the Holy Spirit, You can put the bible book down!
God judges the living and the dead...so I know either way, If I do the right thing, I will have done God's will, in some way shape or form, by putting hemp marijuana back to soil under the sun where it belongs!
And the Human law set against it and me, are in error!...and needs to change!

Because humans cannot put God into prison for MAKING and Growing Marijuana.:rasta: :thumbsup:

This is what happens when we second judge what God called Good!
Genesis 1:12

[mont974x4]

That's an interesting theory.

[siSTARindigo]

Mont, I have a question. You believe animals to have intuition, yet no soul. How can this be possible?

Eva

[mont974x4]

That's a fair question. I view the mind and the soul/spirit as two seperate things. I lump instinct and intuition together. For one example, any newborn that feeds from the mother has an instinctive or intuitive reaction that makes it search for food from the mother. This is possible with or without a soul.

[siSTARindigo]

That's a fair question. I view the mind and the soul/spirit as two seperate things. I lump instinct and intuition together. For one example, any newborn that feeds from the mother has an instinctive or intuitive reaction that makes it search for food from the mother. This is possible with or without a soul.

Yes, but instinct and intuition are different, just like evolution and adaption are different. I believe we agreed on that....correct me if I am wrong.

Instinct is like a mother's instinct, which not ALL mothers have. The thing about an instinctive reaction, is not all who are supposed to have it do.

Intuition is a gut feeling. It is knowing right and wrong, wether it is a direction, or an act of doing. We all have it, we just don't usually listen to it.

Eva

[mont974x4]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. lol but that's ok

[siSTARindigo]

done ;)

[MoonStarer420]

... just like evolution and adaption are different. I believe we agreed on that....correct me if I am wrong.

Nope, Adaption is just evolution on a small scale. Or were you just talking to 974x4?

[mont974x4]

Moon,
In a sense I think you're right

I think evolution, in the classical or macro sense, would be cross species changes and I don't see enough evidence to support that. Adaptation are smaller evolutionary changes within a species. For example, the single breed of dog that left Noah's Ark then adapted in mutiple breeds.

[siSTARindigo]

Nope, Adaption is just evolution on a small scale. Or were you just talking to 974x4?

I was talking to mont about agreeing. But that's cool. Whoever can jump in whenever :D

And I agree with you too. But evolution isn't adaption, right? And you can't say "yes, on a large scale" because there IS adaption without evolution. So it isn't inerchangable. Although very close, I see them as different.

Eva

[siSTARindigo]

Adaptation versus Evolution.

Schwartz J.H.
Departments of Anthropology and History and Philosophy of Science, 3H01 WWPH, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA 15260 USA

Thursday 26/08/04

Time: 08:30

Sala: 500

More than a century ago, De Vries and Bateson pointed out that, despite the title of Darwin's most famous opus, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, this treatise dealt not with the evolution of organisms, but with their survival. A more appropriate title would be: On the Origin of Adaptation by Means of Natural Selection. Through neo-Darwinism, however, "adaptation" and "evolution" became so intertwined that alternative theories which sought to distinguish between the two concepts were summarily dismissed. The situation was complicated further by Mayr's biological species concept, which applied Morganâ??s and then Fisher's particular melding of Mendelism and Darwinism to a model of evolution and speciation that relied on notions of isolating mechanisms and the availability of "unoccupied" "econiches.â?� While this speculation may seem to make some intuitive sense, it is not necessarily biologically or genetically correct. From the perspective of developmental regulation and cell biology, isolation is not a requisite for the origin of genetic and potential morphological novelty. Environment does play a role, but not as traditionally conceived. In the end, it is important to distinguish not only between adaptation and evolution, but also between different â??kindsâ?� of adaptation. Various primates, especially lemurs, provide excellent examples of how rethinking "adaptation" versus "evolution" might fruitfully be approached.


**Link to original:http://www.ips2004.unito.it/Main_Schwartz.html

[Shelbay]

FLESH:In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)

SISTAR:My belief on killing.....I do not believe in capitol punishment ONLY because I don't feel like humans get to make the decision when another dies. People die when they are suppose to. No matter what age.

This whole article is not what I believe, so I am going to stop here. I think I have proven my point. If you'd like me to continue FLESH, just ask :)
You always think you prove a point...and never prove anything but that you have a filthy mouth and your just stupid...anyone can fill a page with words..but your just dumb! Really.

[mont974x4]

Shel do you just like to pick fights for the sake of having an argument? What's wrong with having a real discussion?

[Shelbay]

Shel do you just like to pick fights for the sake of having an argument? What's wrong with having a real discussion?
Mont...do you actually know what started on last nights thread or are you just assuming as the other 2 do? Treat me with respect and you get it back...talk trash like those 2 for my opinions and thats what you get back. Do you actually think your two buddies have a halo on their head...or that it is actually a funny thing for multipal posts to be made of my incarceration? Now if YOU want to have a real discussion then ask your buddies to shut up every time I make a post and maybe then we could have one. Anyone with a real brain can read the thread and see where it started so....do that and get back to me. They act like spoiled fat brats and I don't give a darn if it is the internet...start threatening my family and they got what they had coming...how about all their posts?? Have you questioned your buddies or just me? Apparently not or your question would have been phrased different. They did nothing but talk about my prison time..my family....my looks...my intelligence etc...all because I posted I didn't condone homos (man love)...so now stop being a hypocrite and get your facts straight next time you want to ask me a question. Oh and one more thing....all of you need to pray you NEVER go where I was and to make light of it...very bad Karma...maybe not you..but could be a loved one any day...so keep laughing.

[siSTARindigo]

Shel do you just like to pick fights for the sake of having an argument? What's wrong with having a real discussion?

She isn't capable of having one, that is the problem. Just ignore her, hopefully she will get bored, and go beg for attention somewhere else :thumbsup:

[siSTARindigo]

Mont...do you actually know what started on last nights thread or are you just assuming as the other 2 do? Treat me with respect and you get it back...talk trash like those 2 for my opinions and thats what you get back. Do you actually think your two buddies have a halo on their head...or that it is actually a funny thing for multipal posts to be made of my incarceration? Now if YOU want to have a real discussion then ask your buddies to shut up every time I make a post and maybe then we could have one. Anyone with a real brain can read the thread and see where it started so....do that and get back to me. They act like spoiled fat brats and I don't give a darn if it is the internet...start threatening my family and they got what they had coming...how about all their posts?? Have you questioned your buddies or just me? Apparently not or your question would have been phrased different. They did nothing but talk about my prison time..my family....my looks...my intelligence etc...all because I posted I didn't condone homos (man love)...so now stop being a hypocrite and get your facts straight next time you want to ask me a question. Oh and one more thing....all of you need to pray you NEVER go where I was and to make light of it...very bad Karma...maybe not you..but could be a loved one any day...so keep laughing.

Look in the mirror sweet cheeks, you dish it but can't take it. You have done nothing but trash talk.....NOTHING! No intelectual ANYTHING came out of you. You started the name calling, and trash talking......or have you forgotten in your little pitty party?

[bedake]

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[Shelbay]

Look in the mirror sweet cheeks, you dish it but can't take it. You have done nothing but trash talk.....NOTHING! No intelectual ANYTHING came out of you. You started the name calling, and trash talking......or have you forgotten in your little pitty party?
Well if I want intelligent conversation guess I will talk to myself because you and your good buddy are just dumb. You know nothing but how to talk and insult like the crack ho you are..and I do know who you are.:thumbsup: People like you that talk alot are just that...talkers..nothing else. Now get busy and do something...clean your house or at least try doing something constructive since you are under the impression that you show signs of intelligence. Stop World Hunger...do something!:dance:

[Shelbay]

She isn't capable of having one, that is the problem. Just ignore her, hopefully she will get bored, and go beg for attention somewhere else :thumbsup:
OH....you have to come to the internet to get your self worth going? I can go as long as you can babydoll...:thumbsup: Who are you?? Maybe Miss Cleo?? You know nothing lol.:p Jealous dog in heat!...or did that go over your head 2?

[mrdevious]

Looks like the children are bickering again, I'm telling god.

[Shelbay]

Looks like the children are bickering again, I'm telling god.
He knows already.:)

[siSTARindigo]

Look Shelbay, I know you were in prison for a long time, but your out now! Don't waste precious time stalking people all over every single post they have ever made.

Get a fucking life, with other "real" people in it ;)

[Euphoric]

Some disturbing passages from the christian bible: Incest, Watersports, Necrophilia, Child Abuse, Murder and many more sick christian philosophies

http://www.vexen.co.uk/holyshit/index.html

I think I would of been a much nicer god, but hey that is just me.
It seems like if god was all knowing then he would totally understand pain and suffering, since he did create it and all. So either he doesnt care about pain and suffering or doesnt understand it. WHat if god enjoys it?

[mont974x4]

Suffering serves a purpose. Sometimes its for our own growth and sometimes its so we can help and encourage other people.