Log in

View Full Version : PLEASE READ EBAY/PAYPAL USERS



mobay
02-06-2006, 02:25 PM
Subscribe to Print Edition | Mon., February 06, 2006 Shvat 8, 5766 | | Israel Time: 16:21 (EST+7)



Search site

Back to Homepage



Print Edition Diplomacy Defense Opinion National Arts & Leisure Anglo File Sports Q&A

Magazine Week's End Travel Business Underground Jewish World Real Estate







eBay claims that 150,000 Internet users earn their livelihood from the site, some having left their old jobs to become buyers or sellers on eBay.
Bloomberg



Big Brother is watching you - and documenting

By Yuval Dror

eBay, ever anxious to up profits, bends over backward to provide data to law enforcement officials

"I don't know another Web site that has a privacy policy as flexible as eBay's," says Joseph Sullivan. A little bit later, Sullivan explains what he means by the term "flexible." Sullivan is director of the "law enforcement and compliance" department at eBay.com, the largest retailer in the world.

Sullivan was speaking to senior representatives of numerous law-enforcement agencies in the United States on the occasion of "Cyber Crime 2003," a conference that was held last week in Connecticut. His lecture was closed to reporters, and for good reason. Haaretz has obtained a recording of the lecture, in which Sullivan tells the audience that eBay is willing to hand over everything it knows about visitors to its Web site that might be of interest to an investigator. All they have to do is ask. "There's no need for a court order," Sullivan said, and related how the company has half a dozen investigators under contract, who scrutinize "suspicious users" and "suspicious behavior." The spirit of cooperation is a function of the patriotism that has surged in the wake of September 11.

eBay is the world's largest auction site. Some 62 million registered users buy and sell a variety of merchandise through the site, which charges commissions for every item sold. Sullivan claims that 150,000 Internet users earn their livelihood from the site, some having left their old jobs to become buyers or sellers on eBay.

The sales method on the site is simple: An individual registers as a user, types in his particulars, and affirms that he accepts the user conditions and the site's privacy policy. Whenever an item is sold, the buyer fills out an evaluation form, telling other users about the treatment he received, whether the merchandise was sent on time, etc. Other eBay users can then avoid buying from sellers who have received poor grades.

Sullivan says eBay has recorded and documented every iota of data that has come through the Web site since it first went online in 1995. Every time someone makes a bid, sells an item, writes about someone else, even when the company cancels a sale for whatever reason - it documents all of the pertinent information.

One would think that preserving privacy of the users, whose moves are so meticulously recorded, would be keenly observed at eBay, whose good name in the Internet community is one of its prime assets. But in the U.S. of the post 9/11 and pre-Gulf War II era, helping the "security forces" is considered a supreme act of patriotism.

Who needs a subpoena?

"We don't make you show a subpoena, except in exceptional cases," Sullivan told his listeners. "When someone uses our site and clicks on the `I Agree' button, it is as if he agrees to let us submit all of his data to the legal authorities. Which means that if you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and we will provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details - all without having to produce a court order. We want law enforcement people to spend time on our site," he adds. He says he receives about 200 such requests a month, most of them unofficial requests in the form of an email or fax.

The meaning is clear. One fax to eBay from a lawman - police investigator, NSA, FBI or CIA employee, National Park ranger - and eBay sends back the user's full name, email address, home address, mailing address, home telephone number, name of company where seller is employed and user nickname. What's more, eBay will send the history of items he has browsed, feedbacks received, bids he has made, prices he has paid, and even messages sent in the site's various discussion groups.

Attorney Nimrod Kozlovski, author of "The Computer and the Legal Process" (in Hebrew), heard the lecture, and could not believe his ears. "The consent given in the user contract should be seen as `coerced consent,' in the absence of any opportunity to exercise free choice, with no real alternative but to agree. This is most certainly not conscious consent."

Kozlovski is part of the Information Society Project group at Yale Law School, in which he and his colleagues consider the effects of the new media on the structure of society. American law does not authorize searches of a person's home or body, he says, except in exceptional cases such as when the court authorizes a search, or when the individual gives his consent to a search.

"In the case before us, the Web site signs the user to a document that says it can do whatever it wants with his information. The eBay contract signed by the user concedes his or her rights to protection from the government; in essence, as soon as the contract is signed, eBay can invite the government to do whatever it wants with the information, he says.

A brief visit to the company's Web site reveals that the "user contract" that visitors are supposed to read before agreeing to the conditions is 4,023 words long. One paragraph makes reference to the site's "privacy policy." The user has to click on a link and is diverted to another document that is some 3,750 words long. It then takes another 2,390 words to reach the section about which Sullivan told the legal authorities: The user's privacy is solely up to eBay.

"The users are asked to read and agree to the site policy before they can make use of it," eBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove told Haaretz. "We provide a link to our privacy policy on every single page of our site, and provide summaries of this policy, all so that users will be familiar with our policy."

We will work for you

Nevertheless, eBay does not make do with simply sharing its data with the legal authorities. Sullivan says the company employs six investigators, all of whom have experience in police investigations. Their job is "to track down suspicious people and suspicious behavior." To that end, they scan for patterns that are atypical - different from "normal patterns." For example, if a person sold baseball tickets for two months and suddenly switches to selling a car, the eBay system will "wave a red flag" and signal the seller as someone behaving unusually. Who asks eBay to do it? No one. eBay volunteers.

eBay goes even further. In his lecture, Sullivan spoke about how he helped investigators locate a user who had been suspected of selling stolen cars through the site. "We tried to buy the car from the thief and in that way incriminate him. But the bad guy was smart. He saw there wasn't a single feedback in the history of the person who was making the purchase. He told us he didn't want to make a deal with us."

Sullivan explained that the incident taught the company a lesson, and that since then it has used pseudo buyers for which it constructs comprehensive simulated histories, including simulated feedbacks, all for the sake of incriminating those suspected of theft. "eBay is not willing to tolerate acts of fraud carried out on its site," explains Pursglove. "We believe that one of the ways to fight fraud is to cooperate with the legal authorities at the various levels.

Sullivan is even more forthcoming. Aware of how hard the police work, he decided to help as much as possible. "Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys. We'll send them a form, signed by us, and ask them your questions. We will send their answers directly to your e-mail." Essentially, by engaging in what seems like impersonation, eBay is exploiting its relationship with customers to pass on information to law enforcement authorities. Why? "We take various steps in order to fight fraud and provide a safe buying environment for our numerous users," says Pursglove.

"In order to prevent misuse of authority, the law ensures that authorized impersonation will only be used with persons suspected of carrying out illegal activity," says Pursglove. But eBay's practice is to impersonate people on a regular basis, for law-enforcement objectives. However, "there need not be a proven connection or well-founded suspicion of a crime having been performed," claims Kozlovski.

In July 2002, eBay bought PayPal, Inc. for $1.45 billion. PayPal, which offers the most popular means of payment on eBay, provides clearing services for the execution of online transactions. It enables Internet users to open accounts on the company site, transferring money from their credit card or bank account. When carrying out a transaction, the seller receives a certificate with which money can be withdrawn from the buyer's account in cash. The system obviates the need to reveal personal financial data.

When Paypal was acquired, the company reported 16 million users, as well as 3 million business accounts and 28,000 new visitors to the site each day. About 60 percent of PayPal's income derives from commissions received from users buying goods on eBay. About 70 percent of eBay buyers use PayPal.

Two years earlier, eBay bought Half.com, a site that specializes in sales of CDs and books. Sullivan explained that these acquisitions help eBay to provide lawmen with a full picture. "Every book or CD comes with a bar code. So we know who bought what. The acquisition of PayPal helps us to locate people more precisely. In the old days, we had to trace IP addresses (unique address given to computers linked to the Internet), to locate the buyer, but now Paypal supplies us with the money trail.

PayPal has about 20 million customers, which means that we have 20 millions files on its users," Sullivan proudly relates. "If you contact me, I will hook you up with the Paypal people. They will help you get the information you're looking for," he tells his listeners. "In order to give you details about credit card transactions, I have to see a court order. I suggest that you get one, if that's what you're looking for." It isn't certain that visitors to the site are aware of the thick hints eBay gives the lawmen.

"By buying PayPal, eBay is merging the information about the goods trail with the money trail," explains Kozlovski. "Thus, in spite of the protective mechanisms of the law against disclosure of details on transactions, eBay is in a position to analyze the full set of data and `advise' investigators when it might be `worthwhile' for them to ask for a subpoena to disclose the details of a financial transaction. Essentially, this bypasses the rules on non-disclosure of details of financial transactions and the confidentiality of the banker-client relationship."

Kozlovski mentions how special investigator Kenneth Starr issued a court order that ordered the bookstore where Monica Lewinsky bought her books to report to him the names of the books she bought. "Then, there was a huge fuss. Now you don't need a special order - eBay does the work for the investigators."

Kozlovski feels that eBay's practice should be seen as part of a worrisome trend in the West to curtail protection of individual rights. In communist regimes, he says, the state would assign watchers to follow every citizen, who would pass incriminating information on to the authorities. Now the state doesn't have to do a thing. People come to it of their own free will. This is also the case for eBay, which exploits its stature in the market to have users accept contracts that strip them of their privacy. Perhaps the regime is different, but the outcome is most assuredly the same.



A million new items a day

eBay has no operations in Israel. But in the U.S., Europe and even the Far East, the name eBay is uttered in the same breath with names like Yahoo, Google and Amazon. The company created an electronic business arena where sellers offer their wares and buyers purchase them. eBay's trick is that both the sellers and the buyers are ordinary citizens. On eBay, you can find people selling used chewing gum (and there are buyers), torn soccer balls, 18th century forks, sunflower seeds and luxury cars (in 2002 alone, some 3,000 cars were sold on the site, at a total of $30 million.)

eBay is one of the few Internet companies that shows huge profits quarter after quarter. The company completed the fourth quarter of 2002 with revenues of $414 million and net profits of $87 million. The company had overall income in 2002 of $1.2 billion, and net profits of $250 million. It is traded on Nasdaq at a company value of $23.4 billion - three times that of Amazon, twice that of Yahoo and eight times that of the Israeli security behemoth, Checkpoint.

At any given moment, eBay is conducting some 12 million auctions, divided into about 18,000 different categories. About two million new items are offered for sale every day, and 62 million registered users scour the site to find them. These users have given eBay the monopoly on online auctions in America. Companies such as Yahoo and Amazon tried to get into the auction market, but were forced to give up. An estimated 150,000 people earn their livelihoods solely from buying and selling items by Internet. The company maintains local sites in Britain, Germany, Italy, South Korea, Ireland, Australia, Spain, Singapore and Sweden.

eBay is a monster that churns out money 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - for itself and for its millions of users.




Well-paid workers
The monthly wages of eight senior Knesset staffers are higher than legislators' salaries.

Campaign backfires
Likud officials say the campaign lacks credibility, communicates amateurism.



Today Online


Editorial: Mohammed cartoons are display of insensitivity
Responses: 115


Yossi Sarid: Mohammed, Moses and Jesus are not sacred
Responses: 50


The New Anti-Semitism, cartoon division
Responses: 53


Abbas: I'll still handle peace talks
Responses: 43

Rosner's Domain

* An honesty test: Enjoying the Danish caricature affair?



* Poll: Iran in the Security Council



* And it's time to visit the "Iran Time-Saver" again






















More Headlines
16:19 Peace Now: No new West Bank outposts, but more settlers in 2005


16:11 Olmert: I will hold talks with Hamas-free PA government


16:03 Police arrest six Palestinians charged with deaths of 6 Israelis


15:59 Labor's Yachimovich accuses acting PM Olmert of underworld ties


12:59 Hamas officials gather in Cairo for Palestinian talks


15:07 Hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protest Danish cartoons


13:51 U.S.: Iran sanctions without UN backing would be legitimate


09:21 Sharon's condition unlikely to improve, doctors say


13:32 Olmert promises that government will maintain dialogue with settlers


13:52 Austria museum prepares to send Klimt paintings to U.S. woman




Previous Editions

Select Day 05 feb 03 feb 02 feb 01 feb 31 jan 30 jan 29 jan 27 jan 26 jan 25 jan 24 jan 23 jan





Special Offers


Advertisement

Jdate.com
Find your love online right here!

ENJOY ISRAEL
The best way to enjoy Israel - Crowne Plaza and Holiday Inn Israel

Israeli Movies ONLY $11.99
israel-catalog.com

Israel Military Products
Israel Army Surplus and Online Store














Home | Print Edition | Diplomacy | Opinion | Arts & Leisure | Sports | Jewish World | Underground | Site rules |




© Copyright 2006 Haaretz. All rights reserved

stangle12
02-06-2006, 02:36 PM
Subscribe to Print Edition | Mon., February 06, 2006 Shvat 8, 5766 | | Israel Time: 16:21 (EST+7)



Search site

Back to Homepage



Print Edition Diplomacy Defense Opinion National Arts & Leisure Anglo File Sports Q&A

Magazine Week's End Travel Business Underground Jewish World Real Estate







eBay claims that 150,000 Internet users earn their livelihood from the site, some having left their old jobs to become buyers or sellers on eBay.
Bloomberg



Big Brother is watching you - and documenting

By Yuval Dror

eBay, ever anxious to up profits, bends over backward to provide data to law enforcement officials

"I don't know another Web site that has a privacy policy as flexible as eBay's," says Joseph Sullivan. A little bit later, Sullivan explains what he means by the term "flexible." Sullivan is director of the "law enforcement and compliance" department at eBay.com, the largest retailer in the world.

Sullivan was speaking to senior representatives of numerous law-enforcement agencies in the United States on the occasion of "Cyber Crime 2003," a conference that was held last week in Connecticut. His lecture was closed to reporters, and for good reason. Haaretz has obtained a recording of the lecture, in which Sullivan tells the audience that eBay is willing to hand over everything it knows about visitors to its Web site that might be of interest to an investigator. All they have to do is ask. "There's no need for a court order," Sullivan said, and related how the company has half a dozen investigators under contract, who scrutinize "suspicious users" and "suspicious behavior." The spirit of cooperation is a function of the patriotism that has surged in the wake of September 11.

eBay is the world's largest auction site. Some 62 million registered users buy and sell a variety of merchandise through the site, which charges commissions for every item sold. Sullivan claims that 150,000 Internet users earn their livelihood from the site, some having left their old jobs to become buyers or sellers on eBay.

The sales method on the site is simple: An individual registers as a user, types in his particulars, and affirms that he accepts the user conditions and the site's privacy policy. Whenever an item is sold, the buyer fills out an evaluation form, telling other users about the treatment he received, whether the merchandise was sent on time, etc. Other eBay users can then avoid buying from sellers who have received poor grades.

Sullivan says eBay has recorded and documented every iota of data that has come through the Web site since it first went online in 1995. Every time someone makes a bid, sells an item, writes about someone else, even when the company cancels a sale for whatever reason - it documents all of the pertinent information.

One would think that preserving privacy of the users, whose moves are so meticulously recorded, would be keenly observed at eBay, whose good name in the Internet community is one of its prime assets. But in the U.S. of the post 9/11 and pre-Gulf War II era, helping the "security forces" is considered a supreme act of patriotism.

Who needs a subpoena?

"We don't make you show a subpoena, except in exceptional cases," Sullivan told his listeners. "When someone uses our site and clicks on the `I Agree' button, it is as if he agrees to let us submit all of his data to the legal authorities. Which means that if you are a law-enforcement officer, all you have to do is send us a fax with a request for information, and ask about the person behind the seller's identity number, and we will provide you with his name, address, sales history and other details - all without having to produce a court order. We want law enforcement people to spend time on our site," he adds. He says he receives about 200 such requests a month, most of them unofficial requests in the form of an email or fax.

The meaning is clear. One fax to eBay from a lawman - police investigator, NSA, FBI or CIA employee, National Park ranger - and eBay sends back the user's full name, email address, home address, mailing address, home telephone number, name of company where seller is employed and user nickname. What's more, eBay will send the history of items he has browsed, feedbacks received, bids he has made, prices he has paid, and even messages sent in the site's various discussion groups.

Attorney Nimrod Kozlovski, author of "The Computer and the Legal Process" (in Hebrew), heard the lecture, and could not believe his ears. "The consent given in the user contract should be seen as `coerced consent,' in the absence of any opportunity to exercise free choice, with no real alternative but to agree. This is most certainly not conscious consent."

Kozlovski is part of the Information Society Project group at Yale Law School, in which he and his colleagues consider the effects of the new media on the structure of society. American law does not authorize searches of a person's home or body, he says, except in exceptional cases such as when the court authorizes a search, or when the individual gives his consent to a search.

"In the case before us, the Web site signs the user to a document that says it can do whatever it wants with his information. The eBay contract signed by the user concedes his or her rights to protection from the government; in essence, as soon as the contract is signed, eBay can invite the government to do whatever it wants with the information, he says.

A brief visit to the company's Web site reveals that the "user contract" that visitors are supposed to read before agreeing to the conditions is 4,023 words long. One paragraph makes reference to the site's "privacy policy." The user has to click on a link and is diverted to another document that is some 3,750 words long. It then takes another 2,390 words to reach the section about which Sullivan told the legal authorities: The user's privacy is solely up to eBay.

"The users are asked to read and agree to the site policy before they can make use of it," eBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove told Haaretz. "We provide a link to our privacy policy on every single page of our site, and provide summaries of this policy, all so that users will be familiar with our policy."

We will work for you

Nevertheless, eBay does not make do with simply sharing its data with the legal authorities. Sullivan says the company employs six investigators, all of whom have experience in police investigations. Their job is "to track down suspicious people and suspicious behavior." To that end, they scan for patterns that are atypical - different from "normal patterns." For example, if a person sold baseball tickets for two months and suddenly switches to selling a car, the eBay system will "wave a red flag" and signal the seller as someone behaving unusually. Who asks eBay to do it? No one. eBay volunteers.

eBay goes even further. In his lecture, Sullivan spoke about how he helped investigators locate a user who had been suspected of selling stolen cars through the site. "We tried to buy the car from the thief and in that way incriminate him. But the bad guy was smart. He saw there wasn't a single feedback in the history of the person who was making the purchase. He told us he didn't want to make a deal with us."

Sullivan explained that the incident taught the company a lesson, and that since then it has used pseudo buyers for which it constructs comprehensive simulated histories, including simulated feedbacks, all for the sake of incriminating those suspected of theft. "eBay is not willing to tolerate acts of fraud carried out on its site," explains Pursglove. "We believe that one of the ways to fight fraud is to cooperate with the legal authorities at the various levels.

Sullivan is even more forthcoming. Aware of how hard the police work, he decided to help as much as possible. "Tell us what you want to ask the bad guys. We'll send them a form, signed by us, and ask them your questions. We will send their answers directly to your e-mail." Essentially, by engaging in what seems like impersonation, eBay is exploiting its relationship with customers to pass on information to law enforcement authorities. Why? "We take various steps in order to fight fraud and provide a safe buying environment for our numerous users," says Pursglove.

"In order to prevent misuse of authority, the law ensures that authorized impersonation will only be used with persons suspected of carrying out illegal activity," says Pursglove. But eBay's practice is to impersonate people on a regular basis, for law-enforcement objectives. However, "there need not be a proven connection or well-founded suspicion of a crime having been performed," claims Kozlovski.

In July 2002, eBay bought PayPal, Inc. for $1.45 billion. PayPal, which offers the most popular means of payment on eBay, provides clearing services for the execution of online transactions. It enables Internet users to open accounts on the company site, transferring money from their credit card or bank account. When carrying out a transaction, the seller receives a certificate with which money can be withdrawn from the buyer's account in cash. The system obviates the need to reveal personal financial data.

When Paypal was acquired, the company reported 16 million users, as well as 3 million business accounts and 28,000 new visitors to the site each day. About 60 percent of PayPal's income derives from commissions received from users buying goods on eBay. About 70 percent of eBay buyers use PayPal.

Two years earlier, eBay bought Half.com, a site that specializes in sales of CDs and books. Sullivan explained that these acquisitions help eBay to provide lawmen with a full picture. "Every book or CD comes with a bar code. So we know who bought what. The acquisition of PayPal helps us to locate people more precisely. In the old days, we had to trace IP addresses (unique address given to computers linked to the Internet), to locate the buyer, but now Paypal supplies us with the money trail.

PayPal has about 20 million customers, which means that we have 20 millions files on its users," Sullivan proudly relates. "If you contact me, I will hook you up with the Paypal people. They will help you get the information you're looking for," he tells his listeners. "In order to give you details about credit card transactions, I have to see a court order. I suggest that you get one, if that's what you're looking for." It isn't certain that visitors to the site are aware of the thick hints eBay gives the lawmen.

"By buying PayPal, eBay is merging the information about the goods trail with the money trail," explains Kozlovski. "Thus, in spite of the protective mechanisms of the law against disclosure of details on transactions, eBay is in a position to analyze the full set of data and `advise' investigators when it might be `worthwhile' for them to ask for a subpoena to disclose the details of a financial transaction. Essentially, this bypasses the rules on non-disclosure of details of financial transactions and the confidentiality of the banker-client relationship."

Kozlovski mentions how special investigator Kenneth Starr issued a court order that ordered the bookstore where Monica Lewinsky bought her books to report to him the names of the books she bought. "Then, there was a huge fuss. Now you don't need a special order - eBay does the work for the investigators."

Kozlovski feels that eBay's practice should be seen as part of a worrisome trend in the West to curtail protection of individual rights. In communist regimes, he says, the state would assign watchers to follow every citizen, who would pass incriminating information on to the authorities. Now the state doesn't have to do a thing. People come to it of their own free will. This is also the case for eBay, which exploits its stature in the market to have users accept contracts that strip them of their privacy. Perhaps the regime is different, but the outcome is most assuredly the same.



A million new items a day

eBay has no operations in Israel. But in the U.S., Europe and even the Far East, the name eBay is uttered in the same breath with names like Yahoo, Google and Amazon. The company created an electronic business arena where sellers offer their wares and buyers purchase them. eBay's trick is that both the sellers and the buyers are ordinary citizens. On eBay, you can find people selling used chewing gum (and there are buyers), torn soccer balls, 18th century forks, sunflower seeds and luxury cars (in 2002 alone, some 3,000 cars were sold on the site, at a total of $30 million.)

eBay is one of the few Internet companies that shows huge profits quarter after quarter. The company completed the fourth quarter of 2002 with revenues of $414 million and net profits of $87 million. The company had overall income in 2002 of $1.2 billion, and net profits of $250 million. It is traded on Nasdaq at a company value of $23.4 billion - three times that of Amazon, twice that of Yahoo and eight times that of the Israeli security behemoth, Checkpoint.

At any given moment, eBay is conducting some 12 million auctions, divided into about 18,000 different categories. About two million new items are offered for sale every day, and 62 million registered users scour the site to find them. These users have given eBay the monopoly on online auctions in America. Companies such as Yahoo and Amazon tried to get into the auction market, but were forced to give up. An estimated 150,000 people earn their livelihoods solely from buying and selling items by Internet. The company maintains local sites in Britain, Germany, Italy, South Korea, Ireland, Australia, Spain, Singapore and Sweden.

eBay is a monster that churns out money 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - for itself and for its millions of users.




Well-paid workers
The monthly wages of eight senior Knesset staffers are higher than legislators' salaries.

Campaign backfires
Likud officials say the campaign lacks credibility, communicates amateurism.



Today Online


Editorial: Mohammed cartoons are display of insensitivity
Responses: 115


Yossi Sarid: Mohammed, Moses and Jesus are not sacred
Responses: 50


The New Anti-Semitism, cartoon division
Responses: 53


Abbas: I'll still handle peace talks
Responses: 43

Rosner's Domain

* An honesty test: Enjoying the Danish caricature affair?



* Poll: Iran in the Security Council



* And it's time to visit the "Iran Time-Saver" again






















More Headlines
16:19 Peace Now: No new West Bank outposts, but more settlers in 2005


16:11 Olmert: I will hold talks with Hamas-free PA government


16:03 Police arrest six Palestinians charged with deaths of 6 Israelis


15:59 Labor's Yachimovich accuses acting PM Olmert of underworld ties


12:59 Hamas officials gather in Cairo for Palestinian talks


15:07 Hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza protest Danish cartoons


13:51 U.S.: Iran sanctions without UN backing would be legitimate


09:21 Sharon's condition unlikely to improve, doctors say


13:32 Olmert promises that government will maintain dialogue with settlers


13:52 Austria museum prepares to send Klimt paintings to U.S. woman




Previous Editions

Select Day 05 feb 03 feb 02 feb 01 feb 31 jan 30 jan 29 jan 27 jan 26 jan 25 jan 24 jan 23 jan





Special Offers


Advertisement

Jdate.com
Find your love online right here!

ENJOY ISRAEL
The best way to enjoy Israel - Crowne Plaza and Holiday Inn Israel

Israeli Movies ONLY $11.99
israel-catalog.com

Israel Military Products
Israel Army Surplus and Online Store














Home | Print Edition | Diplomacy | Opinion | Arts & Leisure | Sports | Jewish World | Underground | Site rules |




© Copyright 2006 Haaretz. All rights reserved



HOLY SHIT THAT WAS THE LONGEST POST I"VE EVER READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Smpthy4TheDevil
02-06-2006, 02:42 PM
jesus bloody christ. i'm not reading all that.

learn the magic of summarization.

mobay
02-06-2006, 02:49 PM
if you were more concerned about safety then you would read. iam giving it to you the way i read it.

STDzRus
02-06-2006, 03:08 PM
I read it.

And so what?

They are doing it to the buyer's advantage so "sellers" don't rip people off.

mobay
02-06-2006, 03:26 PM
the info that they have kept on file since 1995, any law enforcement can use this if they need to, grow lights from ebay, etc. think ahead not behind stupid

lemonboy
02-06-2006, 04:28 PM
I read it.

And so what?

They are doing it to the buyer's advantage so "sellers" don't rip people off.It is funny how people will accept the perversion of their private information as everyday life. To think these companies and their operators would never use this information maliciously is to be totally ignorant of history. Not only that but their desire to operate as a quasi-authoritative agency and willingness to provide law enforcement with information outside of established channels should send a chill up the spine of anyone who values their personal freedom.

Scenario: Granny buys a bottle of AN Carboload on eBay for use on her tomato plants. Gets her door kicked in 3 months later at 4am by the DEA because eBay/Paypal told them she was buying marijuana growing supplies on their site. Granny isn't growing so she doesn't get arrested... she just had to deal with 10 guys in ski masks and machine guns raiding her house in the dark who leave as quickly as they appeared with no paperwork. Does this sound like the America you want to live in?

When did it become so hard to get a warrant? More importantly, when did people stop demanding them?

STDzRus
02-06-2006, 06:03 PM
For all you paranoid fuck.

Two words.

Prove it.

lemonboy
02-06-2006, 06:15 PM
That entire article is full of chilling quotes from eBay's own security adviser. It's not exactly conspiracy theory spun by people in tinfoil hats, it's how the company operates.

STDzRus
02-06-2006, 06:33 PM
I'm talking about your theoretical situation lemonboy! :thumbsup:

Shelbay
02-06-2006, 06:40 PM
It is funny how people will accept the perversion of their private information as everyday life. To think these companies and their operators would never use this information maliciously is to be totally ignorant of history. Not only that but their desire to operate as a quasi-authoritative agency and willingness to provide law enforcement with information outside of established channels should send a chill up the spine of anyone who values their personal freedom.

Scenario: Granny buys a bottle of AN Carboload on eBay for use on her tomato plants. Gets her door kicked in 3 months later at 4am by the DEA because eBay/Paypal told them she was buying marijuana growing supplies on their site. Granny isn't growing so she doesn't get arrested... she just had to deal with 10 guys in ski masks and machine guns raiding her house in the dark who leave as quickly as they appeared with no paperwork. Does this sound like the America you want to live in?

When did it become so hard to get a warrant? More importantly, when did people stop demanding them?
Wow. I am glad some of you on here are actually articulate because your post is exactly how I feel after reading that! I just don't have the gift of articulation as you do. I think these things but I have to really concentrate to keypunch out a coherent post sometimes...anyway..one more thing..lets hope when these things become more apparent that some of these guys actually use the safety on their weapons and make sure they actually have the right house sometimes.

Ae...
02-06-2006, 07:31 PM
For all you paranoid fuck.

Two words.

Prove it.

They woke a lot of people up with the attempt to pass the Patriot Act, so maybe that would be a good place to start. Here's a PDF file of the actual document you can download.

http://www.infowars.com/police_state.html

A rough summary may be that the government wants to take away all of the U.S. citizens natural rights and freedoms. This in turn makes us less vulnerable to 'terrorist attacks' within the country. In the case you've shown interest, a citizen's lack of 4th Amendment rights, makes illegal searches magically legal because you could be a terrorist.

http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Police_state/Insight_Police_State.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/homeland_security_state.htm

http://www.infowars.com/martiallawphotos.html

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/martial_law_no_longer_on_the_horizon_its_here.htm

It may be a lot to read, but it should be interesting enough that you will not notice. Besides, it's happening in your country...right now.

I also wanted to add that infowars is not the only site around that contains this type of information, it's just a good site for introducing people to our government's true nature. My personal favorite alternate site is http://www.rense.com/ ...Jeff is a bit less agressive than Alex in trying to portray his message.

So anyway, I hope some of this will get you thinking and I hope that I didn't digress too much in the process.

nutranater
02-06-2006, 08:52 PM
I know of no article stating information from E-bay or PayPal was used to obtain a warrant or search warrant. If Iam wrong I hope you can show me the way to where it is. I live in the northeast and in a very remote area. If I want things I need for indoor cultivation I have to go to the net. If the prices are more than I can afford I have gone to E-bay. Most sellers of such goods keep info stealth and quiet. Have done this for a number of years. I have friends in the law enforcement field (Keep friends close,keep enemies closer) who Have said to do such information shuffling would prove to be a huge waste in time! Stop being so paranoid and from spreading it around. Chicken little was WRONG the shy is not falling! Come on use your heads!

del...
02-06-2006, 08:59 PM
paypal and ebay won't keep an account open once either one discovers there is illegal activity going on so it shouldn't affect anyone here. seedbay used paypal for a short time until they figured out what's going on...then they (paypal) kept the funds! same story for other sellers using paypal to process payments. it's been dried up as a payment transfer biz for several years now...

and ebay, well their terms of compliance says it all...

thanks for the heads up anyway. obviously there are still some falling into their traps!

STDzRus
02-06-2006, 09:14 PM
They woke a lot of people up with the attempt to pass the Patriot Act, so maybe that would be a good place to start. Here's a PDF file of the actual document you can download.

http://www.infowars.com/police_state.html

A rough summary may be that the government wants to take away all of the U.S. citizens natural rights and freedoms. This in turn makes us less vulnerable to 'terrorist attacks' within the country. In the case you've shown interest, a citizen's lack of 4th Amendment rights, makes illegal searches magically legal because you could be a terrorist.

http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Police_state/Insight_Police_State.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/homeland_security_state.htm

http://www.infowars.com/martiallawphotos.html

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/martial_law_no_longer_on_the_horizon_its_here.htm

It may be a lot to read, but it should be interesting enough that you will not notice. Besides, it's happening in your country...right now.

I also wanted to add that infowars is not the only site around that contains this type of information, it's just a good site for introducing people to our government's true nature. My personal favorite alternate site is http://www.rense.com/ ...Jeff is a bit less agressive than Alex in trying to portray his message.

So anyway, I hope some of this will get you thinking and I hope that I didn't digress too much in the process.


Thanks for the interesting reading material!

2toker
02-07-2006, 12:45 AM
back in the early 80's the feds got the names of all people that had bought hydroponic sytems thru high-times magazine. they then raided the locations on the assumption they were using them to grow herb. busted quite a few people in the midwest. so yes, it can and does happen.