A DIFFERENT CHRISTMAS POEM

[Torog]

A DIFFERENT CHRISTMAS POEM

The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light, I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight. My wife was asleep, her head on my chest, My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.

Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white, transforming the yard to a winter delight. The sparkling lights in the tree I believe, completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.

My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep, Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep. In perfect contentment, or so it would seem, So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.

The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near, But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear. Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow.

My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear, And I crept to the door just to see who was near. Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night, a lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.

A Marine, I puzzled, some twenty years old, All dressed in cammies, huddled here in the cold. Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled, standing watch over me, and my wife and my child.

"What are you doing?" I asked without fear, "Come in this moment, it's freezing out here! Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve, You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!"

For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift, Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts.. To the window that danced with a warm fire's light. Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right, I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night."

"It's my duty to stand at the front of the line, That separates you from the darkest of times. No one had to ask or beg or implore me, I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me.

My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December," Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers." My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam', And now it is my turn and so, here I am. I've not seen my own son in more than a while, But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile.

Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag, The red, white, and blue... an American flag.

"I can live through the cold and the being alone, Away from my family, my house and my home. I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet,I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat. I can carry the weight of killing another, Or lay down my life with my sister and brother... Who stand at the front against any and all, To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."

"So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright, Your family is waiting and I'll be all right." "But isn't there something I can do, at the least, "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast?" It seems all too little for all that you've done, For being away from your wife and your son."

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret, "Just tell us you love us, and never forget. To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone, To stand your own watch, no matter how long.

For when we come home, either standing or dead, To know you remember we fought and we bled.

Is payment enough, and with that we will trust, That we mattered to you as you mattered to us.

[Psycho4Bud]

Howdy Torog....
You got a good heart dude...don't ever loose it!!

VERY COOL!!! :thumbsup:

[Fengzi]

Great poem Torog. No matter what we might think of George Bush or the war in Iraq we all need to remember to support our troops 100%. There just doing their job and their the best at what they do

[bonton]

'Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war'

Steve Earle

[Torog]

Howdy Torog....
You got a good heart dude...don't ever loose it!!

VERY COOL!!! :thumbsup:
Howdy Psycho4Bud,

Thanx for yer kind words sir !

Have a good one !

[Torog]

Great poem Torog. No matter what we might think of George Bush or the war in Iraq we all need to remember to support our troops 100%. There just doing their job and their the best at what they do
Howdy Fengzi,

You're right-our troops do deserve 100% of our support,many have families and simply want others to be as blessed as they..which is why many have re-upped and insisted on going back to the front-lines.

Have a good one !

[Torog]

'Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war'

Steve Earle
Howdy bonton,

Folks that think the way you do,will never understand that 'poor boy's' don't fight for rich men-they fight for themselves and their family's and their country..as well as for the freedom of others,even un-grateful folks like you.

Have a good one....

[lemonboy]

which is why many have re-upped and insisted on going back to the front-lines.Probably not the dead ones.

"Why don't Presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor?" SOAD

I guess those US Army ads I'm always seeing with black kids in the projects are just a coincidence? And the one with the Mexicans in the very slummy apartment that is all in Spanish... Yeah, that one is my favorite.

Were you ever in the armed forces Torog?

[Torog]

Probably not the dead ones.

"Why don't Presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor?" SOAD

I guess those US Army ads I'm always seeing with black kids in the projects are just a coincidence? And the one with the Mexicans in the very slummy apartment that is all in Spanish... Yeah, that one is my favorite.

Were you ever in the armed forces Torog?
Howdy lemonboy,

Yup..I was..were you ? If I could,I'd go back in again,but I'm too old and crippled now. Some presidents have fought in a war,before becoming CnC.

Alot of poor folks volunteer for the military,because it's a steady paycheck and because of the educational opportunities,rich kids don't have financial problems and have access to the best education,plus many are spoiled brats,that would never dream of doing something selfless.

I also feel that some of our best soldiers,are recent immigrants,who are actually grateful to live in America and are eager to give back to their new country,as opposed to un-grateful Americans who don't realize that America is the greatest country in the world.

You could change yer handle from "lemonboy" to "lemonman",if ya went into the military,it makes men and women,out of boys and girls,and ya git to see the world and do things you could never do as a civilian.

Have a good one ....

[lemonboy]

Where was I? It was a question, not an attack. I had never seen you talk about it and I figured that I would have by now. The military really isn't an option for me. It's out of my hands. I wouldn't fit anyway, I ask too many questions. I have no animosity towards servicemen and women. I have lived around them my entire life.

You're right... America is the greatest country in the world. I'm just not ready to beat people to death with lead piping when they don't happen to agree. If that makes me ungrateful, so be it.

[Esoteric416]

Thanks for the poem Torog, I think it will remind even the most staunch opponent to the Iraq war that, though we may not agree with the polotics, we musn't forget our brothers and sisters who stand in harm's way.
I'm going to send a copy of your poem to my brother who is right now resting so he can stand watch in the dessert night at camp Duke, just west of Najaf.
I know he'll appreciate your poem, and your support.

[Torog]

Thanks for the poem Torog, I think it will remind even the most staunch opponent to the Iraq war that, though we may not agree with the polotics, we musn't forget our brothers and sisters who stand in harm's way.
I'm going to send a copy of your poem to my brother who is right now resting so he can stand watch in the dessert night at camp Duke, just west of Najaf.
I know he'll appreciate your poem, and your support.
Howdy Esoteric,

Your welcome ! :) But I must say,that this is not my poem,it was submitted anonymously,by a retired Marine,I believe.

God bless your brother,and all of those who choose to protect our Freedom ! :thumbsup:

I wish that I could be there !

Have a good one !

[Torog]

Where was I? It was a question, not an attack. I had never seen you talk about it and I figured that I would have by now. The military really isn't an option for me. It's out of my hands. I wouldn't fit anyway, I ask too many questions. I have no animosity towards servicemen and women. I have lived around them my entire life.

You're right... America is the greatest country in the world. I'm just not ready to beat people to death with lead piping when they don't happen to agree. If that makes me ungrateful, so be it.
Howdy lemonboy,

I was never trained to beat people to death with a lead pipe,just because they disagreed,and as far as I know,no military units are issued lead pipes. However,I and my fellow soldiers,were trained to preserve,protect and defend,our Freedom..and to kill those willing to die to kill us and take that Freedom away..it's a tough job..but someone has to do it..if we intend to remain Free.

Have a good one ....

[Breukelen advocaat]

Regarding the thumbnail in the posting above showing a child dressed in black holding an American flag:

I think that the religious extremists in Iraq are even worse than Saddam Hussein and his bunch. No one can say with certainty that people will never be dragged away to be tortured, raped and killed when the religious fanatics take over, or are actively trying to do so.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and this beholder's eye does not see it in that fat-faced child, or much of the rest of the country and regions that support insane belief systems. That child is ugly, the adults are horrific, and their religion is giving us people that want to destroy everything.

I do not pretend to have the answers, but christinsanity is not the correct approach â?? it was bad the past, as it is now and will continue to be. Get with it folks â?? weâ??re killing OURSELVES by not recognizing this. Itâ??s a sadomasochistic, self-destructive philosophy that is the perfect vehicle to guarantee endless conflicts and misery in the world.

Priests, or whatever faith, are all degenerate, decadent human beings, and must be recognized as such â?? and their destructive theological belief systems must also be purged from the minds of intelligent human beings before we can deal with the rest of the scum in the world â?? religious or otherwise.

[Psycho4Bud]

"Itâ??s a sadomasochistic, self-destructive philosophy"

I'm not personally heavy into religion but after 6 years of Catholic school training this is a new one! How is it sadomasochistic?....I must have missed that day!! Just interested. :thumbsup:

[Breukelen advocaat]

"Itâ??s a sadomasochistic, self-destructive philosophy"I'm not personally heavy into religion but after 6 years of Catholic school training this is a new one! How is it sadomasochistic?....I must have missed that day!! Just interested. :thumbsup:

Sadomasochism is defined as, "the perversion of deriving pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, from simultaneous sadism and masochism."

I would say that it applies to the 4 percent of priests that are child molesters, the brothers and nuns that use paddles, rulers, and other instruments (not to mention their hands) to punish children, the psychological abuse, the hatred of human sexuality, the attempt to deny the people of the world access to birth control and condoms, and many other deviant ways of acting. The Catholic Church is not alone in this, unfortunatly it is proably just as bad or worse in other denominatins of christianity and other religions.

This is not the garden-variety, harmless "S&M" that involves "sex toys" and role-playing fantasies that has become popular thanks to TV shows like Sex in the City, movies, the internet, books, magazines, sex stores, etc. People that engage in these types of behavior are NOT doing it with unwilling partners - to do so without consent would be a crime. This is a form of sexual foreplay for adults.

Abuse of children and adults by religious (or other) degenerates is wrong â?? and you can just look at the history of the Inquisitions to see what they would do if they still had the power.
Here are some of the instruments Colonel Robert Ingersoll (â??The Great Agnosticâ?�) described, which were on display in New York City back in the 19th century:

1. The Thumbscrew. Two pieces of iron united by a screwing device at each end to mechanically bring the irons together. The inner sides of the iron were armed with small spikes and protuberances to prevent slipping. Colonel Ingersoll says "The man who would not recant was not forgiven. They screwed the thumbscrews down to the last pang, and then threw the victim into some dungeon, where, in throbbing silence and darkness, he might suffer the agonies of the fabled damned."

2. The Collar of Torture. Imagine a circle of iron on the inside surface of which were a hundred points almost as sharp as needles. This persuasive argument was then fastened loosely about the throat of the sufferer. Every time he or she moved, the throat would be punctured by these sharp points. After a while the tortured throat would swell and finally suffocation would end the agonies of the hapless victim. Their crime? Perhaps they had not confessed belief of a hell in the hereafter.

3. Scavenger's Daughter. This iron instrument was shaped like a large pair of shears, if you can imagine handles at both ends, with another circle of iron just above the pivot point. In the upper handles the hands would be placed, and the feet in the lower. Through the ring near the center the head of the victim would be forced. In this condition he would be thrown prone upon the ground. The strain upon the muscles produced such agony that insanity would usually come to the final relief of the victim.

4. The Rack. This was a box similar to the bed of a wagon, with a windlass at each end, with levers and ratchets to prevent slipping. Over each windlass went chains. One set of chains was fastened to the ankles of the sufferer, the chains from the other windlass to his wrists. As the priests, divines, clergymen and other saints began turning these windlasses and continually increasing the tension, the ankles, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, spine of the victim were all permanently dislocated as the sufferer lay there in a screaming sweat of agony. The clergy usually would have a physician standing by to feel the pulse of the sufferer. Was it to save his life? Yes. For the sake of mercy? No. It was simply so that, like the savage Indians, they could prolong the torture which might end too soon with death.

5. The Iron Crown. In this instrument again appears the deadly thumbscrew used to tighten an open iron band about the head. In the lining of the band were a series of iron knobs. As the thumbscrew was tightened, the iron band about the head would tighten, slowly forcing the knobs into the skull. The iron crown was often imposed upon Christian martyrs on their way to execution.

6. Hanging by the Thumbs. This is pretty well self explanatory. A variation of this was hanging by one thumb, tying a heavy lead weight to the victim's feet to increase the pull, and sometimes putting firewood under the victim and ending his torture by burning.

7. Fearful Eliza. This is a chair, similar to an electric chair, in which the victim was lashed down. The spikes in the seat would prevent the victim from slipping out, to say nothing of being extremely painful. Sometimes additional heavy weights were lashed to the victims feet as he sat there contemplating whether he should or should not believe the story of Jonah and the Whale, or whether Joshua really did stop the sun for a day.

8. Mouth Openers. This was usually inflicted on what the church called "blasphemers." It consisted of two small iron plates. These were inserted between the upper and lower teeth and spread apart by turning a thumbscrew. (Again those damned thumbscrews. I am beginning to realize the deadly origin of the "putting the screws" to somebody.) Once the jaws had been pried apart these loving Christians then had a variety of other goodies in store for their helpless victims. One was to pour molten hot lead down the throat of the sufferer. Another was to seize the tongue with iron pincers, and the tongue was either slitted or cut off.

9. The Trinity. This was a three part group of torture instruments of which the above mentioned pincers were a part. The other consisted of an iron mask that was put on red hot. The third was a metal chain, called a scourge, that looked like the skeleton of a snake. Sometimes a fourth instrument was used in accompaniment to these, namely a perforated iron spoon, for dropping hot lead pellets on the naked body. This combination of gentle persuaders was in its time of material service in stimulating the worship of the heavenly Trinity in whose loving name they were applied.

10. Branding Irons. A number of these were common, among which the letter "U" predominates, which in several languages stood for "unbeliever." In this museum in New York Colonel Ingersoll tells about, was also exhibited the little coal stove in which the branding irons were heated, along with the bellows.

11. Executioners Swords. These were of numerous types and sometimes highly ornamental. The blade was some two feet, nine inches in length and two and three-quarters inches in width. The handle was made to be grasped by two hands. The condemned was tied down in a chair with the head bowed. An expert with much practice could sever the neck with one blow. The swords were sometimes of Damascus steel of fine ornamental quality inscribed with pious verses such as: "When I upraise the fatal knife God give this sinner eternal life." Or "Oh God, this sinner to thy kingdom take, that he may taste of joy, for Jesus sake."

12. Large Iron Boots. These were put on red hot and then filled with molten lead.

13. Wire Mail Mittens and Hose. These were heated red hot and put on the victim to extort confessions.

14. The Spanish Gag. Used to prevent prisoners from screaming while undergoing torture. One species looked like a bell slit into sections. When thrust in the mouth a spring was released which spread the sections and distended the jaws.

15. The Iron Brank. This was a full head mask, heated before putting on the head of the victim. It had funnels at the orifices of the ears for convenient introduction of hot lead. It was highly recommended by the Holy Inquisition..



Below is a picture of the â??hereticâ??s forkâ?�. With the four sharp points rammed deep into the flesh under the chin and into the bone of the sternum, the fork prevented all movement of the head and allowed the victim only to murmur, in a barely audible voice, â??abiuroâ?� (â??I recantâ?�, engraved on one side of the fork). If instead he still refused, and if the Inquisition was the Spanish one, he was held to be an â??impenitent hereticâ?� and, dressed in the characteristic costume, was led to the stake, but with the consolation of the sacrament if extreme unction; if instead it was the Papal Inquisition, he was hanged or burnt, without the benefit of the pretty costume but still with that of proper Christian rites.
http://www.torture-museum.com/heretic-fork.htm

The Judas Cradle. This procedure has remained essentially unchanged from the Middle Ages until today. The victim is hoisted up in the manner shown in the accompanying illustration, and lowered onto the point of the pyramid in such a way that his weight rests on the point positioned in the anus, in the vagina, under the scrotum or under the coccyx (the last two or three vertebrae). The executioner, according to the pleasure of the interrogators, could vary the pressure from zero to that of total body weight. The victim can be rocked, or made to fall repeatedly onto the point. The Judas cradle was thus called also in Italian (culla di Giuda) and German (Judaswiege), but in French it was known as la veille, â??the wakeâ?� or â??nightwatchâ?�. Nowadays this method enjoys the favour of not a few governments in Latin America and elsewhere, with and without improvements like electrified waist rings and pyramid points. http://www.torture-museum.com/judas.htm

[Psycho4Bud]

Sadomasochism is defined as, "the perversion of deriving pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, from simultaneous sadism and masochism."

Sadism is the Master or Dom of the couple. This part of the equation receives pleasure from inflicting discipline or pain to the "submissive" partner.

Masochism is the sub or slave that WILLINGLY submits their minds and bodies to the Dom/Master.

I would say that it applies to the 4 percent of priests that are child molesters, the brothers and nuns that use paddles, rulers, and other instruments (not to mention their hands) to punish children, the psychological abuse, the hatred of human sexuality, the attempt to deny the people of the world access to birth control and condoms, and many other deviant ways of acting. The Catholic Church is not alone in this, unfortunatly it is proably just as bad or worse in other denominatins of christianity and other religions.

This is where I question this. In a true Sadomasochistic relationship, there MUST be mutual consent. A child that was molested gave no consent or did the students being whooped on by the nuns. These people are just perverts and authoritarians. A true Sadist would never purposely damage his sub/slave.

This is not the garden-variety, harmless "S&M" that involves "sex toys" and role-playing fantasies that has become popular thanks to TV shows like Sex in the City, movies, the internet, books, magazines, sex stores, etc. People that engage in these types of behavior are NOT doing it with unwilling partners - to do so without consent would be a crime. This is a form of sexual foreplay for adults.

And this is the true definition of Sadomasochism. Two or more consenting adults living a life style which is out of the norm.

Abuse of children and adults by religious (or other) degenerates is wrong â?? and you can just look at the history of the Inquisitions to see what they would do if they still had the power.
Here are some of the instruments Colonel Robert Ingersoll (â??The Great Agnosticâ?�) described, which were on display in New York City back in the 19th century:

These are forms of torture being put upon a NON-consenting individual. Thats my point, masochists freely give their minds and bodies to the Master or Dom knowing that they are safe. They also use safe words during scenes so that in case they feel uncomfortable the actions would stop immediately.

In general, the S&M community are the ones that are proud of their bruises, scars, etc....that they received during the scenes. There is also a milder form of this called BDSM that will use like scenes but not leave marks. The general attitude of this life style is that a person is restrained and beat, whipped, etc...violently from the start...NOT TRUE! Actually it's a gradual increase which starts very mild to the point where the Dom see's that the sub has had enough...for S&M's it could be marks while for BDSM people it's more of a fog state of mind that the Dom watches for.

Sorry, I lived the BDSM for about 10 years which is the reason I found this interesting. Fact is, the pervert priests, knuckle busting nuns, torture rooms of the crusades was not a true form of Sadomasocism. Unfortunately, there are "Self-Trained Doms" out there with this belief and when the Masocist gives her/him to this person they find a freak instead of a Dom.

This was REALLY the wrong thread for this!!! So sorry to all!! :thumbsup:

[Breukelen advocaat]

This was REALLY the wrong thread for this!!! So sorry to all!! :thumbsup:

The poem that started this thread was not written recently. It was, in fact, written several years before the Iraq invasion - and preceded 9/11, also.

â??A Soldierâ??s Christmasâ?� was written by Captain Michael Marks December 7th, 2000
A Soldier's Christmas was the first in this series of patriotic writings, drafted on Pearl Harbor Day 2000 when in the wake of the 2000 Presidential Election our nation saw the right of US Armed Forces personnel openly questioned and debated. I felt it unconscionable that at the onset of the Christmas season, those serving to defend our nation would hear anything but our love and support. It is our challenge to stand for their rights at home while they stand for our lives and safety overseas. This poem went out and quickly spread around the world in emails, letters, magazines. I received letters from Marines in Bosnia, soldiers in Okinawa, from a submariner who xeroxed a copy for everyone on his sub. Moms wrote, dads, brothers and sisters. I have saved and cherish every letter and set out to continue writing throughout the year. http://www.wusatv9.com/special/soldiergreetings.aspx

It's becoming a somewhat meaningless cliche, this habit of everyone saying,â?� I support the troops". Just for pointing that out, I feel that I must say it myself, so: I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

I'm not sure that I support the regime(s) that will result from our intervention in Iraq, though. If people do not fight for democracy themselves, do they really deserve it? I don't know, given the religious climate in the Middle East, if anything remotely resembling a democracy is even possible over there. Does that kid in the picture, or her parents, have even the slightest fucking idea of what freedom is about, and the personal responsibilities it entails? I doubt it, and don't see them becoming very "enlightened" anytime soon.

I know that this was not the intention of the original posting of the thread, but these questions bother me. The fact that our armed forces are putting their lives in harm's way in Iraq, and many are dying or becoming injured, does not sit well with me. Money makes the world go â??round, and thatâ??s what it seems to boil down to. If the Iraqis think that that they will have more money, they will tell their kids to wave the American, or any other nationsâ??, flag.

It's only my opinion.

[Psycho4Bud]

It's becoming a somewhat meaningless cliche, this habit of everyone saying,â?� I support the troops". Just for pointing that out, I feel that I must say it myself, so: I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

It might be cliche but to the troops overseas it means a lot. I would think one of their biggest fears is to come home to a public portraying them as woman and child killers. The way that the U.S. public welcomed the Vietnam War Vets home was disgraceful.

I'm not sure that I support the regime(s) that will result from our intervention in Iraq, though.

Nobody knows what may result from this but it'll be THEIR version of a democracy. Whether or not it's rapped around the teachings of the Quran will be the majorities choice but at least they have Constitutional provisions that will respect the rights of the others.

If people do not fight for democracy themselves, do they really deserve it?

They are fighting for it. The insurgents are going after young Iraqi's enlisting into armed forces and police. But the people still sign up for duty because they realize what this means to them. I'll bet that a lot more Iraqi troops/police have died for this cause than our soldiers. Thats not to mention the innocent civilians on the street that die to these car bombers. The Iraqi people feel loses every day and it seems that it is making them more determined....70% voter turnout is a good example.

I don't know, given the religious climate in the Middle East, if anything remotely resembling a democracy is even possible over there.

It won't be a western style democracy but it will reflect thier philosophy. Hopefully it won't be radical, but with the diversity of the Iraq population I really can't picture a second Iran in our future.

Does that kid in the picture, or her parents, have even the slightest fucking idea of what freedom is about, and the personal responsibilities it entails? I doubt it, and don't see them becoming very "enlightened" anytime soon.

Freedom at what level? Freedom for us means we don't have wire taps, no spot searches, speach, travel, etc...
Their idea may be as simple as being able to trade other currency's or goods without having a hand cut off, or knowing when your daughter is done with school that she isn't taken away by a bathist loyalist for a raping. The Kurds and Shi-ites will consider freedom to be not living in fear of having everything taken and their families being executed; Being able to speak their mind without ending up in a torture chamber.
We take a lot of basic freedoms for granted. Freedom is kinda like Cocaine...the more you take the more you want. What level is the addiction and how far can it progress without corruption? There's a lot of oil and a lot of money there to be had, hopefully the diversity of the countries population will keep things in check.

I know that this was not the intention of the original posting of the thread, but these questions bother me. The fact that our armed forces are putting their lives in harm's way in Iraq, and many are dying or becoming injured, does not sit well with me. Money makes the world go â??round, and thatâ??s what it seems to boil down to. If the Iraqis think that that they will have more money, they will tell their kids to wave the American, or any other nationsâ??, flag.

It's only my opinion.

Like I've said before, my kids in the service overseas right now. He's not in the sandbox...that I know...but he's still in a questionable area. If something were to happen to him I sure wouldn't be happy but I'd be very proud to know that at least he gave his life for a cause that was in the benifit of others. To me, that's a hell of a lot more honorable death than if it were to happen in a car accident or some stupid wastefull shit like that in the States. All we can do back here is SHOW OUR SUPPORT. :thumbsup:

[Breukelen advocaat]

Psycho4Bud wrote, "I would think one of their biggest fears is to come home to a public portraying them as woman and child killers. The way that the U.S. public welcomed the Vietnam War Vets home was disgraceful"

While they didn't get a ticker-tape parade down Fifth Avenue, I don't remember any incidents toward a vet that could be described as "disgraceful". About the only thing my ex-soldier friends were a little ticked-off about was the term "Crazed VietNam Veteran", which was used by the media to describe the occasional incident that happened well after the war was over. The images shown in the "Rambo" film didn't help.

The American public didn't portray them as "women and child killers". Not even the most radical anti-war organizations ever did that. The main focus of the anti-war movement was to bring the boys home, not insult or otherwise hurt them. I hope that the current anti-war movement is even more mindful of the soldiers' situations than those of the past.

[Torog]

Howdy Breukelen,

Shame on you for trying to turn this thread into a rant against Christianity..and therefore,against our troops,many of whom,are Christian. Those of you,who hate,loathe and despise,Christians,Christianity,God and Jesus Christ,all act as if every Christian Church in America,has it's own dungeon with a full complement of torture devices.

Y'all also act as if the muslims never do anything wrong,you look the other way-when they torture and behead people..you do know-that torture and beheading,is considered an honorable practice by muslims and arabs,especially currently,don't you ? Christians haven't used torture in quite some time now,and will never go back to those days again,yet you and others like you,act as if torture is still the official practice at the Vatican.

As for the baby-killer phrase that y'all like so much,I've been called a baby-killer several times recently,simply for being a veteran. I have never killed any babies or murdered them with abortion,whereas,y'all murdered over 40 million babies and counting.

Have a good one ....

[Breukelen advocaat]

Originally Posted by Torog
Howdy Breukelen,
Shame on you for trying to turn this thread into a rant against Christianity..
"Shame on" ME? I was simply pointing out the bloody record of Christianity, AND I also pointed out that they are not alone in that area. .

....and therefore,against our troops,many of whom,are Christian. Those of you,who hate,loathe and despise,Christians,Christianity,God and Jesus Christ,all act as if every Christian Church in America,has it's own dungeon with a full complement of torture devices.
To be critical of a crackpot idea like christianity is within my rights as an American- no matter WHO happens to think differently. I am not the one that is saying that people are going to burn for eternity for simply thinking a certain way. That's YOUR department.

Y'all also act as if the muslims never do anything wrong,you look the other way-when they torture and behead people..you do know-that torture and beheading,is considered an honorable practice by muslims and arabs,especially currently,don't you ?
Where have you been for all these months? I've placed enough anti-Muslim stuff on this board to last for YEARS! You have absolutely nothing to back-up this ridiculous accusation with. About the only explanation may be that your computer does not support graphics - I've had TONS of cartoons and pictures of Bin Laden, al Quada, Muslims, as well as anti-fundamentalism, images and thumnails. If they aren't being displayed on your computer, I can't help it. What the hell do you think, that I blame bush for the attacks of 9/11 - which I was an eyewitness to in Lower NYC? I posted that story about five times on threads that YOU were also writing on.

Christians haven't used torture in quite some time now,and will never go back to those days again,yet you and others like you,act as if torture is still the official practice at the Vatican.
The are waiting for the day that they can go back to the dark ages. In the meantime, they support as many bad things as possible.

As for the baby-killer phrase that y'all like so much....
What the FUCK are you talking about? I NEVER said, or insinuated that I agreed with, any such thing about the U.S. soldiers.
,
I've been called a baby-killer several times recently,simply for being a veteran. I have never killed any babies or murdered them with abortion,whereas,y'all murdered over 40 million babies and counting.
If you've been called a "baby killer", I didnâ??t 't see it on this board, or I would have slammed the person that said it. And as for your description of abortion as "baby killing", may I remind you that the crime rate has dropped DRASTICALLY since 20 or so years after Roe vs. Wade.

Have a good one ....

Thanks, but I don't think you mean it. Just because you cannot come up with appropriate responses to rational thinking, you take the easy way out by just making things up about people that you differ with. It's sad, but true.

Just for the record, although I have expressed this here before, I would like to reiterate that I am NOT opposed to using extreme methods of persuasion on terrorists to obtain information.

Whether you know it or not, there ARE conservative, patriotic people like myself, who are non-religous.

The old Pagans' Winter Solstice celebrations are 50 times older than christianity and it's ritualistic imitations of ancient holidays. Don't expect everybody to accept your religion - it's not going to happen. I was born with an extremely hard head, and if 10 years in brutal, working-class, Brooklyn Catholic Schools couldn't scare me into believing in their BULLSHIT, nothing can, or ever will.

[Psycho4Bud]

Psycho4Bud wrote, "I would think one of their biggest fears is to come home to a public portraying them as woman and child killers. The way that the U.S. public welcomed the Vietnam War Vets home was disgraceful"

While they didn't get a ticker-tape parade down Fifth Avenue, I don't remember any incidents toward a vet that could be described as "disgraceful". About the only thing my ex-soldier friends were a little ticked-off about was the term "Crazed VietNam Veteran", which was used by the media to describe the occasional incident that happened well after the war was over. The images shown in the "Rambo" film didn't help.

The American public didn't portray them as "women and child killers". Not even the most radical anti-war organizations ever did that. The main focus of the anti-war movement was to bring the boys home, not insult or otherwise hurt them. I hope that the current anti-war movement is even more mindful of the soldiers' situations than those of the past.

In Febrary 1971 when I returned home, besides the lame questions of how many babies did I have to kill and how many villages did I help burn down, I had a little incident on a NYC bus. Wearing my Marine uniform with my ribbons from Vietnam (including my Purple Heart), the bus driver said that I could get on the bus for free, but I had to sit in the back of the bus. He didn't want me to cause any trouble.
http://www.capveterans.com/

And this never happened???

[eg420ne]

LOL this thread funny

[Breukelen advocaat]

[QUOTE=Psycho4Bud]In Febrary 1971 when I returned home, besides the lame questions of how many babies did I have to kill and how many villages did I help burn down, I had a little incident on a NYC bus. Wearing my Marine uniform with my ribbons from Vietnam (including my Purple Heart), the bus driver said that I could get on the bus for free, but I had to sit in the back of the bus. He didn't want me to cause any trouble.
http://www.capveterans.com/

Out of respect for the majority of military people that do not engage in that behavior, I didnâ??t bring up the fact that some American soldiers in Vietnam DID commit atrocities and war crimes

An "underground" comic, DEVIANT SLICE FUNNIES (The Print Mint, 1972), had a Time Magazine parody (below) on the back cover, drawn by cartoonist Greg Irons, which I still have. War is ANYTHING but â??funnyâ?�, as this drawing shows. Itâ??s very graphic, but is more in keeping with the anti-war movement's goal of "bring the boys home" of the time, and more important, than an unfortunate random incident of monument destruction that is mentioned by the vet in your reference.

If we hadn't demanded an end to it, Nixon would probably have continued it until many more were killed or wounded.

There were 10 million Americans under arms during the [Vietnam] war. Of the 2.7 million Americans served in the Vietnam war, 300,000 were wounded in action, and 75,000 were disabled. Of the casualties listed on The Wall, approximately 1,300 remain missing in action. "The average age was 19, America's youngest combatants." Note: http://www.war-stories.com/dab-poss-body-count-1965.htm

Over 58,000 Americans were killed, and we still do not know why.

[Psycho4Bud]

[QUOTE=Psycho4Bud]In Febrary 1971 when I returned home, besides the lame questions of how many babies did I have to kill and how many villages did I help burn down, I had a little incident on a NYC bus. Wearing my Marine uniform with my ribbons from Vietnam (including my Purple Heart), the bus driver said that I could get on the bus for free, but I had to sit in the back of the bus. He didn't want me to cause any trouble.
http://www.capveterans.com/

Out of respect for the majority of military people that do not engage in that behavior, I didnâ??t bring up the fact that some American soldiers in Vietnam DID commit atrocities and war crimes

This is really getting off topic but I don't understand what your trying to get at here. Was it right for some disrespectful assholes to put down these soldiers when they returned home? This is the type of crap that our people overseas DON'T need when they return.

[Breukelen advocaat]

This is really getting off topic but I don't understand what your trying to get at here. Was it right for some disrespectful assholes to put down these soldiers when they returned home? This is the type of crap that our people overseas DON'T need when they return.
Discussing a war like the one in Vietnam is not â??off-topicâ?� on this thread.

Those were crazy times, and the misguided enthusiasm of a few young miscreants was occasionally channeled into bombing ROTC centers, banks, and other misdeeds like the one you mentioned. I could also have mentioned the killing of four college students, by the National Guard, who were protesting the war at Kent State, Ohio. Or, the Chicago police riots at the Democratic National Convention protests of 1968, where it was a miracle that nobody was killed.

How about Nixon's "enemies lists", or the companies that were profiteering from the Vietnam War?

That war was a disgrace, even though it did not start out that way. After years of needless deaths and injuries, all we wanted was for the troops to be sent home alive â?? not in a body bag, stretcher or wheelchair. If anybody STILL thinks that we shouldnâ??t have withdrawn the troops, they are entitled to that opinion.

[Psycho4Bud]

Discussing a war like the one in Vietnam is not â??off-topicâ?� on this thread.

Those were crazy times, and the misguided enthusiasm of a few young miscreants was occasionally channeled into bombing ROTC centers, banks, and other misdeeds like the one you mentioned. I could also have mentioned the killing of four college students, by the National Guard, who were protesting the war at Kent State, Ohio. Or, the Chicago police riots at the Democratic National Convention protests of 1968, where it was a miracle that nobody was killed.

How about Nixon's "enemies lists", or the companies that were profiteering from the Vietnam War?

That war was a disgrace, even though it did not start out that way. After years of needless deaths and injuries, all we wanted was for the troops to be sent home alive â?? not in a body bag, stretcher or wheelchair. If anybody STILL thinks that we shouldnâ??t have withdrawn the troops, they are entitled to that opinion.

I didn't agree with the Vietnam war either. All we were doing was picking up the pieces that the French left. But I still say, when those troops came home they deserved respect for doing what they had to do. :thumbsup:

[Torog]

Howdy Breukelen,

Well apparently,an apology is in order,I apologize for mis-stating yer position..I also reacted in a knee-jerk fashion and that was wrong too. Thanx for clarifying where ya stand..I'll try to remember better,next time.

I would like to clarify a couple things too..I don't go around telling folks that they are going to Hell,if they don't change their ways or believe as I do..I just don't think it's right to actually tell folks that..because it presumes that one knows how God will judge any given person..maybe saying,"you may go to Hell if.." is a better response.

As for Christianity supporting all things bad,yer talkin like me..when I say "liberals,atheists,muslims and secularists,are responsible for everything bad and the support thereof"..and that ain't right either..I just say that mostly out of frustration..even though I know that I'm wrong to characterize everyone as being the same..my bad.

I really do wish that you "Have a good one..", I want you to have a good day and hopefully,a good toke too:thumbsup: I wish also,that everyone can be as least as blessed as I and my gal..we have a roof over our heads,food in the fridge and we share unconditional love..and if we're really lucky,we have something good to toke.

So..Have a good one !

[Breukelen advocaat]

Howdy Breukelen,
Well apparently,an apology is in order,I apologize for mis-stating yer position..I also reacted in a knee-jerk fashion and that was wrong too. Thanx for clarifying where ya stand..I'll try to remember better,next time.
I would like to clarify a couple things too..I don't go around telling folks that they are going to Hell,if they don't change their ways or believe as I do..I just don't think it's right to actually tell folks that..because it presumes that one knows how God will judge any given person..maybe saying,"you may go to Hell if.." is a better response.
As for Christianity supporting all things bad,yer talkin like me..when I say "liberals,atheists,muslims and secularists,are responsible for everything bad and the support thereof"..and that ain't right either..I just say that mostly out of frustration..even though I know that I'm wrong to characterize everyone as being the same..my bad
I really do wish that you "Have a good one..", I want you to have a good day and hopefully,a good toke too:thumbsup: I wish also,that everyone can be as least as blessed as I and my gal..we have a roof over our heads,food in the fridge and we share unconditional love..and if we're really lucky,we have something good to toke.
So..Have a good one !


No problem, and I'm glad to hear that! :thumbsup:

You bet I'm going to have a good one. The NYC Transit strike is on, I'm unable to commute to work, and I'll have to find a way to pass the time today and it might, just maybe, involve using a lighter. :rasta:

Have a good one!

[Torog]

No problem, and I'm glad to hear that! :thumbsup:

You bet I'm going to have a good one. The NYC Transit strike is on, I'm unable to commute to work, and I'll have to find a way to pass the time today and it might, just maybe, involve using a lighter. :rasta:

Have a good one!
Howdy Breukelen,

YaY ! :rasta: :thumbsup: :D

Have a great one !