My qualms with atheism.

[ADaisyChain]

Here is what I've been thinking:

We only know what we have observed. For example, we wouldn't know 2+2=4 unless at one point someone took two seperate piles of apples, 2 in each pile, and shoved them together to see there was now a pile of 4 apples.

This is what originally turned me off to religion. It is unobserved and can easily be created by a good mind. Also, the fact that religion comforts so many people made it feel somewhat empty to me. Most people will believe anything that comforts them. And since the creation of the ego (the individual) we have thought ourselves seperate from the whole, and with that thought we created the soul, as becoming one with the whole (as observed in death, aka the end of our individuality outside the minds of others) makes us very uncomfortable as self proclaimed 'individuals'.

Here's my problem though. Everything I've observed also shows me that in order for something to exist, energy must be spent in its creation. Be it a house, or a novel. Thought, and physical energy are always used. This applies to everything I have ever seen.

But, in order for there to have been a beginning (as everything I've seen has had) energy must have been used for it's creation. But, if nothing was before it, what cerated the initial energy? And if its "god", then what initial energy created god?

It seems to me that either the universe is infinite and has always been (which in itself is very god like, to have no beginning or end) or something that has always been has created it. I think the second is less likely, but that could be because I have not observed something outside of the universe. I also have never observed something with no beginning or end. One or the other exists though, whether I have observed it or not. And I think it just as likely that the universe was the initial infinity (does this make the universe god, having no beginning or end?) rather than god, because I have seen the universe, and I have not seen god.

To be an atheist is to claim to know the unobserved just as much as believing in a being outside of the laws of the universe. The atheist is just a touch more logical, but barely. They both put an answer on the unanswerable. So I'm trying to figure out why I keep bothering giving myself titles like 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or 'christian' and don't just call myself 'existant and accept it'.

Even if something did not make us, we exist. We know this because we can observe our own existance, just as we can observe yeast rising. Something existing without creation in itself is miraculous and defies all the observations we can make here. That means (to me) that there is just as likely to be an entity outside of this universe, and an entity outside of the entity outside of this universe. If infinity is the one truth (numbers can go infinitely lower or higher.) that seems like the higher power microscope we use the more new things we will see for infinity, and if we could look outside (we can't anymore then a person in a room can see the whole house) it too would continue for infinity.

I see the benefits of atheism as this: they accept only the now and what they see. This is in my opinion the wisest thing we can do since we may never know what is beyond this, but atheists seem to think they know what is beyond this and I'm beginning to fail to see how thats any different then a religious person thinking they know whats going on.

I accept death for what it is, the destruction of my conciousness, but even in death, our atoms stay alive and may serve new purposes. This is not immortality of the self, since the self will die, but the parts that made up the self will not, which points to a circular existance.

If there's no beginning there can never be an end. ((thanks alice in wonderland)) So if there's no end, there's no end to the possibilities.

Someone show me how my thought pattern is unsound, I'm making myself uncomfortable.

"You, are becoming Gods. There's a new master of creation, and it's you! You've unravelled DNA and at the same time you're cultivating bacteria strong enough to kill every living thing. D'you think you are ready for that much power? You lot? Cheeky bastards. You're running around science like kids with guns, creating a new world, while the one you've got is stinking. Go on, hands up, hands up anyone who thinks you've got it right. Yeah, there's always one. I can see you. If you want the position of god then take the responsibility."

[RastaKaze]

i dont know man.. you can drive youself insane pondering on all those factors... but as humans, most of us do anyway. perhaps its the feeling of mystisicm and uncertainty that drives us to want to know things. all i know is that im here, right now, and that's all im worrying about. live life the fullest while you can cause it does end.. well mabye not I heard something in 1998 about scientists succesfully engineering 'immortal' human cells. so yeah one day we will definitely be able to live forever, perhaps even uncover the mystery of our world..

[Breukelen advocaat]

You (ADAISYCHAIN) are making a statement that is very biased. Please tell us where we can find evidence that of a known atheist who makes the claim of being able to "know the unobserved". I may be wrong, but I don't think that any Atheists have said anything remotely like that.

Atheism takes years to fully grasp. I would suggest reading books and articles by the following masters of Atheism; by familiarizing yourself with their works you can better understand what it is all about:

Robert Ingersoll (an agnostic) http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

Madalyn Murray O'Hair http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/OHairFamily/

the American Atheist website http://www.atheists.org/,

Chapman Cohen, http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/chapman_cohen/index.shtml

Bertrand Russell (mathematician) http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

Frederich Nietzche http://www.primitivism.com/antichrist.htm

Joseph McCabe (GREAT stuff by an ex-Jesuit priest that formerly worked in the Vatican Library and had access to â??forbiddenâ?� Catholic documents. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/big_blue_books/
I have an original copy, printed in the 1930's or 40's, of this book: The Holy Faith Of Romanists, How Catholics Are Hypnotized About Their Weird Creed by Joseph McCabe (1867 - 1955).
McCabe was WAY ahead of his time - as were many others listed here.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/big_blue_books/book_16.html

We used to have to BUY all of the above â?? now much of it is totally free. I wish that I had been able to get these titles years ago without having to send money through the mail and wait for the mailman. It's nice to have a "hard copy", but many of these works are either out-of-print, or very hard to find.

Happy reading.

[CocaCola]

Hahaha... Quit your crying Jesus!

[Harvesthetic]

thx so much for the interesting read, guys.

sheep follow, skeptics question!
Breukelen advocaat, what is the origin of you nickname? Do you speak dutch?

[Breukelen advocaat]

thx so much for the interesting read, guys.sheep follow, skeptics question!
Breukelen advocaat, what is the origin of you nickname? Do you speak dutch?

No, only words in English that are derived (stoop, etc.) from them, and an occasional slip into Brooklynese - which is a combination of old English, German, and Dutch accents.

I have some Dutch ancestry (from centuries ago), and I was born and raised in Brooklyn - formerly known as the "City of Churches", when Brooklyn was not considered part of New York City. Needless to say, other that listening to an occasional presentation of music in them, I do not visit churches.

Many of Brooklyn's streets still have Dutch names, and there are even a number of Dutch-built churches and buildings there.

I still live in da boro of Brooklyn. Anybody got a problem wit dat?

[Stedric]

We know that something can't come from nothing, but in order for the universe to exist something had to come from nothing at some point. Chicken and egg, as I've said, you'll never be able to fully wrap your heads around it.

Probably why I'm an Agnostic.

[ADaisyChain]

Please tell us where we can find evidence that of a known atheist who makes the claim of being able to "know the unobserved". I may be wrong, but I don't think that any Atheists have said anything remotely like that.

Atheism:
# the doctrine or belief that there is no God
# a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

We have observed that in order for something to exist, it must be created.

Claiming otherwise goes against all of our observations.

[ADaisyChain]

Yeah, stedric just said it.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Atheism:
# the doctrine or belief that there is no God
# a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
We have observed that in order for something to exist, it must be created.
Claiming otherwise goes against all of our observations.

WHO said that? I'd like to know if an Atheist said it. I do not accept definitions of Atheism from theists (such as Webster). You cannot cram centuries of Atheism into a couple of sentences - it's stupid to even try to.

[ADaisyChain]

WHO said that? I'd like to know if an Atheist said it. I do not accept definitions of Atheism from theists (such as Webster)

I do not accept definitions from people who make up their own definitions.

Coming into a thread on atheism with your own made up definition is like a christian going into a christian thread, arguing how it's right, and then two posts later saying
"No ya see, I'm a christian but I think Jesus was a false prophet. Ya see, to ME to be a christian just means that I think Jesus was a real cool guy."

lol. Cmmooonnn.

But go ahead and give me your definition, I'm a couple'a ears.

[ADaisyChain]

You cannot cram centuries of Atheism into a couple of sentences - it's stupid to even try to.

You added this edit after I posted.

Run run as fast as you can.
I won't catch you, you're an atheist, man.
Stuck in your ways
You'll discuss them for days
Until asked just to shorten them up.

What do you think of my poem?

[Breukelen advocaat]

I do not accept definitions from people who make up their own definitions.
Coming into a thread on atheism with your own made up definition is like a christian going into a christian thread, arguing how it's right, and then two posts later saying
"No ya see, I'm a christian but I think Jesus was a false prophet. Ya see, to ME to be a christian just means that I think Jesus was a real cool guy."lol. Cmmooonnn.
But go ahead and give me your definition, I'm a couple'a ears.

YOU are the one with the "made-up" definition, and you still have not told us who uttered the aforementioned quote. I spent about 30 minutes compiling a list of Atheist works, spanning hundreds of years, that are online. There are many good explanations in those books.

You cannot accept, or deny, an idea like Atheism (and it IS an "idea") with a just few lines. Reigion is also an "idea" - and probably the WORST one ever imagined by the human race.

It's late, and I could do better, but MY "one-line definition" of Atheism right now is:
Without theism.

That's it. Anything that is written by men claiming to have "special" knowledge of the "supernatural" is BULLSHIT! This includes the bible, koran, and all docrines of theology-based movements. It's all a gigantic fraud.

If this is not enough, and you are perfectly right to say that it isn't, then read some of the experts' opinions and observations that I have listed.

P.S. there are no gods, prophets, "holy" men, angels, devils, saviors, or ghosts. Anybody that claims that these entities exist is either stupid, insane, a liar, or all three.

[ADaisyChain]

* the doctrine or belief that there is no God
* a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities. In antiquity, Epicureanism incorporated aspects of atheism, but it disappeared from the philosophy of the Greek and Roman traditions as Christianity gained influence. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

* The belief that God does not exist.
library.thinkquest.org/25416/gloss.htm

* One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.#
www.stsams.org/dictionary.html

* A belief that there are no gods. Greek "a-theos": without-god.
www.reasoned.org/glossary.htm

* belief that there is no god and that religion should be suppressed.
www.naiadonline.ca/book/01Glossary.htm

* n a) a disbelief [or unbelief] in the existence of deity b) the doctrine that there is no deity
tangents.home.att.net/data/rlgdef.htm

* Atheists In modern times, those who do not accept the monotheistic Christian God or any god. It formerly signified those who did not believe in the accepted divinity or divinities of the State or populace.
www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/ass-atm.htm

* An atheist is one who does not believe in the existence of God or gods. Pretty simple, right?
studentorgs.georgetown.edu/guskeptics/definitions.htm

* a (â??withoutâ?�) the (â??deityâ?�, or â??godâ?�). Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods.
www.strongatheism.net/intro/lexicon/




# the doctrine or belief in the existence of a God or gods
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses. More specifically, it may also mean the belief in God, a god, or gods, who is/are actively involved in maintaining the Universe. This secondary meaning is shown in context to other beliefs concerning the divine below.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism

# The teaching that there is a God and that He is actively involved in the affairs of the world. This does not necessitate the Christian concept of God, but includes it. (Compare to Deism)
www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_t.htm

# The belief that there is a God or gods.
www.fitzwimarc.org.uk/glossary/t.htm

# In the eighteenth century sense, Theism meant a belief in one God as the Creator and as the Almighty ever present power on earth and in man. Theists in general accepted the teachings of revelation and grace and differed from Deists (see "Deism") in this respect.
www.mises.org/easier/T.asp

# A philosophical system which accepts a transcendent and personal God who not only created but also preserves and governs the world, the contingency of which does not exclude miracles and the exercise of human freedom.*
www.stsams.org/dictionary.html

# Deity created the universe and continues to actively participate in the world's activities and in human history.
www.religioustolerance.org/tran_imm.htm

# Believing in a deity or deities (god/gods). A belief in religion. (Greek theos: god).
www.reasoned.org/glossary.htm

# Theism is the belief in one god, derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition. In a broad sense, it is generally associated with Chrstianity ( Christian theism ); in a particular sense, both Judaism and Islam are forms of theism as well. The term, however, is mostly used in a philosophic or apologetic context to indicate Christian monotheism. Sometimes, though, the term is used to distinguish monotheism from atheism, pantheism, polytheism, panentheism, etc.
www.apologetics.org/glossary.html

# the belief in a god or gods; Christian theism refers to the belief in one God who is creator and ruler of the universe, and who made Himself knowable through general and special revelation.
www.summit.org/resource/dictionary/

# Accepts the existence of God and the evidence of revelation. [PRS]
www.embassy.org.nz/encycl/t3encyc.htm

# is derived from the Greek (Theos) meaning "God" plus -ism. Theism for our intents and purposes is the belief in the true and living God who is Creator and sovereign Ruler of the universe and known by voluntary revelation.
www.theapologiaproject.org/glossary.htm

# Belief in [or belief in the probability of] the existence of God(s). A broad category encompassing a wide variety of beliefs, Theism does not specify the particular kind of God(s) believed in. There are several types of Theism including deism and monotheism, the belief in one God, pantheism, the belief that everything is God, and polytheism, the belief in many gods. ...
members.aol.com/porchnus/dict04.htm

# the belief that a god or gods exist. (See monotheism and polytheism.)
www.strongatheism.net/intro/lexicon/

# The belief in the existence of God, partially based on divine revelation.
homepage.tinet.ie/~peterc/a/a5.html

# the belief in a god or gods; a theist is one who believes in god.
www.d.umn.edu/~revans/Handouts/rel_terms.htm


Here's the thing. Theism is the belief in a god or gods. So without theism, means without belief in god or gods. Which equates to the exact definition I gave. Sillypie.

[ADaisyChain]

ps - i win.

lawl, kidding. :cool:

[CocaCola]

Hey God created everything but who created God? I'll stick with this argument. There is nothing that could have created God and nothing can exist without meaning, and God being the original omnipotent omnipresent master of the universe doesn't have any reason to exist... why would he... he is the all and the everything, right? He didn't need to create shit... that is how he can't exist. We just made up this God theory because how we got here couldn't be explained. It's a fairy tale, guys... A guy up in the sky.. oh wait, no... BEYOND the reaches of outer space and time? I bet he's jsut up there playing pin-ball with his ass crack sticking out.

[420kidder]

ADaisyChain
You're beginning to make even less sense in your own thread. Some things that you said make sense, while others don't, but I guess that happens every day in god's world. Just because the world has existed for some time now, doesn't mean that someone created it. Yes it exists so it was created, no shit. It's called physics. Many other planets are born all the time, those aren't unanswered questions, they're facts that scientists witness on occasion.

Based on your rants, IMO you should not be concluding that the universe is infinite. Just because you feel something doesn't mean you're right. I'm sure it's big, but I doubt it's infinite.

How did the earth get here? It was created, not by man. I don't think superman had anything to do with it either. I guess you're probably thinking it was god. Did his friends help him build the earth or did he do it solo, cuz I gotta say, that must've been some hard fucking work if I may say so.

Now if you were to say that Aliens are possible, I would gladly say you're right, in fact we've found life sustaining substances outside of our planet. But we haven't found god's huge hammer to build the mountains.

I bet the millions of species of plants, animals, etc. were on the ark too?

I guess I just don't understand how people can believe in this shit because they were told to at one point, but for so many it's out of the question that there isn't and hasn't been any god. You call it faith, I call it stupidity.

You can say whatever you'd like, and I'll respond accordingly, but if I was to go around saying that my dead father will rise again and my dead father created everything that you see and is responsible for everything that happens, I'd be in need of a psychiatric ward.

[CocaCola]

We're all energy, maaan.

[ADaisyChain]

Listen, please read before posting here 420KIDder

I don't believe in a god, as I stated several times throughout my post. What created physics?

I believe the bible was manmade, I believe the ark was an item out of someone very creative's imagination. So please do not speak on behalf of my beliefs.

Please read my whole post before replying in my threads... I know its long, but if its too long for you, do not follow it up.

And theism doesn't apply only to christianity anymore then atheism is merely the denial of christianity. Update your brain.

Edit: You think the universe is finite? lol. If thats the case, what contains it?

Thank you.

[ADaisyChain]

Hey God created everything but who created God?

I agree. I think it's more likely that the universe is the original infinite then god being the original and then creating us.

[Breukelen advocaat]

The god-believers, including the publishers of dictionaries and books, use semantics to cover-up the ludicrous nature of the agenda that they are pushing (religion).

It's no wonder that most people have never even heard of, much less read, a book by an Atheist.

Joseph McCabe, an ex-Jesuit who became an Atheist, wrote some very good books about the influence of religion on factual history and other matters, one of which is called History's Greatest Liars - which was an expose of the Catholic Church's meddling with various books published in the United States and elsewhere. They effectively silenced the opposition in print, and squashed the information about big anti-religion movements in Europe during the 19th century. Itâ??s very interesting, and I will search to see if the book has been reproduced online. I have the original â?? from the 1930â??s.
Here's a reprint for sale:
http://www.atheists.org/catalogue/shop/prod5524.php

[Breukelen advocaat]

If you guys know more about physics than Einstein, I'm impressed!

[ADaisyChain]

The god-believers, including the publishers of dictionaries and books, use semantics to cover-up the ludicrous nature of the agenda that they are pushing (religion).

I repeat: Your definition is the EXACT same as the definition in all the sources I listed. And not every source I listed is from theists, several of the definitions came from atheist sources if you'll note.

EXACT same.

[ADaisyChain]

If you guys know more about physics than Einstein, I'm impressed!

Someone said this? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[CocaCola]

No one is claiming that... all conversation here is based purely on what we KNOW ALREADY. I thought that would be pretty evident as we aren't, ya know, scientists and preists.

[CocaCola]

God was born out of us... Simple as that. If God was around before the universe... and he is the all knowing all seeing all being lord... then he wouldn't have created anything. It would be safer to assume that God was just a guy who learned what had to be done to create everything and devise his master plan.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I repeat: Your definition is the EXACT same as the definition in all the sources I listed. And not every source I listed is from theists, several of the definitions came from atheist sources if you'll note.EXACT same.

Look, either you believe in bullshit, or you don't.

No two Atheists think exactly the same about everything, but most religions mandate that everybody must (think alike). The religions have fought science and reason since the beginning - and have caused more human misery than any other single idea. If you want to defend these atrocious institutions, fine. Just don't try to project their rotten values on Freethinkers, Atheists, and other who have not let their brains be opiated by it. It a CRUTCH, and the emotional cost alone is costing the human race more than it can afford. In other words, the fanatics of the big monotheistic faiths DO NOT CARE about the continuation of life on this planet as much as the "afterlife", and they are willing to kill everyone and everything to prove it.

It's insane, and I don't know how to put it in any simpler terms.

I've got work in a few hours, and I'm outta here!

[CocaCola]

I forgot if we were talking about what created everything or how religion is such a ludicrous concept in the first place and that all it cause is trouble.

[Harvesthetic]

We're all energy, maaan.
Spot on.

I myself am Astonished by all that surrounds us. I wouldn't dare believing nor disbelieving.

[420kidder]

Listen, please read before posting here 420KIDder

I don't believe in a god, as I stated several times throughout my post. What created physics?

I believe the bible was manmade, I believe the ark was an item out of someone very creative's imagination. So please do not speak on behalf of my beliefs.

Please read my whole post before replying in my threads... I know its long, but if its too long for you, do not follow it up.

And theism doesn't apply only to christianity anymore then atheism is merely the denial of christianity. Update your brain.

Edit: You think the universe is finite? lol. If thats the case, what contains it?

Thank you.

You seem to keep calling me a kid, but yet I'm not. You haven't given reason why I'm a kid, but I don't care what you think because you're worthless. I wasn't necessarily saying anything negative about you directly, but since you continue to do so in your posts I'll tell it like it is. You make no fucking sense with your posts.

You know your post is long, but if is too long for me do not follow it up? What the hell are you trying to say here? You make no sense really. Are you trying to tell me to not bother reading it if it's too long? Hmmmm

You're asking me what contains the universe? Maybe you should re-read what I said because I didn't say it wasn't infinite, I said I doubt that it is. An educated person would realize that if i'm not positive I probably don't have the answer.

I'm not talking specifically about Christianity, so once again you're assuming, and you know what you get when you assume don't you?

You're asking me what created physics? What kind of question is that? Your post is pointless, except for making it known that you're a moron.

Hmmm, what makes you the expert on this subject? When I search for posts started by you, I come up with a poll asking people what they do with their pubes (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=30300), another stating you only last 5 minutes sexually speaking (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=43180) and another talking about how it burns when you pee (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=29078).

I guess I'm just pissed about how people like you can breed.

[ADaisyChain]

I am not defending religion. I think organized religion is a big crockpot of goofiness. I'm not protecting rotten values, I'm protecting the possibility that you could be as wrong as we both know they are.

They are a crutch, they are put here to comfort our sense of individuality with the belief in the afterlife.

Religion and theism are different on many levels, you as an informed atheist should know this.

While not allowing your brain to be opiated by the comfort of theism, you are allowing your brain to be opiated by the feeling of knowing, which also causes comfort.

The problem with athism is they can't accept the unknown anymore then christians can, and thus they claim knowledge that is unobtainable by any means from here.

Do you believe in infinity? If so, as a freethinker, try pondering the limitless possibilities it entails. If not, well, don't. But with mathematics we can see that infinity does indeed exist, whether it applies to our universe or not, we may never know.

[ADaisyChain]

You seem to keep calling me a kid, but yet I'm not. You haven't given reason why I'm a kid, but I don't care what you think because you're worthless. I wasn't necessarily saying anything negative about you directly, but since you continue to do so in your posts I'll tell it like it is. You make no fucking sense with your posts.

You know your post is long, but if is too long for me do not follow it up? What the hell are you trying to say here? You make no sense really. Are you trying to tell me to not bother reading it if it's too long? Hmmmm

You're asking me what contains the universe? Maybe you should re-read what I said because I didn't say it wasn't infinite, I said I doubt that it is. An educated person would realize that if i'm not positive I probably don't have the answer.

I'm not talking specifically about Chrstianity, so once again you're assuming, and you know what you get when you assume don't you?

You're asking me what created physics? What kind of question is that? Your post is pointless, except for making it known that you're a moron.

Hmmm, what makes you the expert on this subject? When I search for posts started by you, I come up with a poll asking people what they do with their pubes (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=30300), another stating you only last 5 minutes sexually speaking (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=43180) and another talking about how it burns when you pee (http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=29078).

I guess I'm just pissed about how people like you can breed.

... Your reading comprehension score is a 63%. That's a D. And I'm sorry that you had to bring in my sexuality threads to help create your nonexistant argument.

[CocaCola]

We're all meaningless conscious energy figments existing all at once for no real reason other then to live our lifes and ponder the universe.

[ADaisyChain]

Here's the reason I call you a kid. You bring sexuality posts into a discussion on atheism. You refer to the ark and then say you weren't talking about christianity. You called a woman stupid for having a non-working parachute. I said you said the universe was FINITE ((aka, with an end, not INFINITE)) which you did say, and then you answered me as if I said you said the exact opposite. You make false claims, I am not an expert on this subject, that is why I am asking all these questions. Your temper flares at internet people to the point that you bring in their threads that have NOTHING to do with their current one. And lastly, you get pissed that I am capable of breeding.

It doesn't matter if you're 50, you're acting like a child. I hope you see this as I'm sure others than myself. do.

[ADaisyChain]

We're all meaningless conscious energy figments existing all at once for no real reason other then to live our lifes and ponder the universe.

So you think the answer to the meaning of the universe is the question itself?

No reason not to think about it if that really is our purpose. Even if theirs not an answer, it makes my brain feel good to think about it. Coincidence?

[CocaCola]

Age is not a factor here. Nor is it ever... So many dumb adults... and they think they are smarter because they have "more experience" because they're older. Those ones are still young, in my opinion.

[420kidder]

I guess that's your opinion. In my eyes you're more of a child but big deal. I did call the woman who crashed into the ground stupid. She's stupid because she thinks god saved her and her unborn baby. how about the fucking parachute that slowed her ass down, or the fucking medical team that saved her ass, or the ongoing treatments?

My tempers don't flare at internet people, I understand not everyone believes what I believe in. But you and I are corresponding and you're making me upset with the way you communicate your thoughts here. You quickly jump to a conclusion and assume that i'm saying something that I'm not.

The previous posts of yours (sexuality posts) are relevant here because they show that you're not just a weirdo in this forum, but in the others as well.

[CocaCola]

So you think the answer to the meaning of the universe is the question itself?

No reason not to think about it if that really is our purpose. Even if theirs not an answer, it makes my brain feel good to think about it. Coincidence?

Holy fuck... well, ther ya go.

[CocaCola]

There is no meaning... it's just infinite. One conscious' "life" rippling through the "universe" and effecting others... and the cycle goes on. Vibrations... the meaning of life is to continue life.

[ADaisyChain]

I guess that's your opinion. In my eyes you're more of a child but big deal. I did call the woman who crashed into the ground stupid. She's stupid because she thinks god saved her and her unborn baby. how about the fucking parachute that slowed her ass down, or the fucking medical team that saved her ass, or the ongoing treatments?

My tempers don't flare at internet people, I understand not everyone believes what I believe in. But you and I are corresponding and you're making me upset with the way you communicate your thoughts here. You quickly jump to a conclusion and assume that i'm saying something that I'm not.

The previous posts of yours (sexuality posts) are relevant here because they show that you're not just a weirdo in this forum, but in the others as well.

I'm a weirdo in general. I'm not big on pride or conformity, and if abunch of internet people I'll never meet know I only last 5 minutes in bed.. I frankly don't give too many damns. lol. Catch my drift?

And if you'll read your exact words on the parachute thing, you didn't call her stupid for that at all, you called her stupid before that part. I agree that it is stupid to think god saved her, unless her idea of god is 'the universe as a whole' in which case pieces of god did conspire to save her.

And don't say things you aren't saying and I won't think you're saying them. Communication is only somewhat necessary I know, but if you're using it you have to follow the rules so that everyone gets what your saying.

This post of yours was much more mature then your others. If you continue to post like this I'll stop thinking of you as a kid.

[ADaisyChain]

There is no meaning... it's just infinite. One conscious' "life" rippling through the "universe" and effecting others... and the cycle goes on. Vibrations... the meaning of life is to continue life.

Looking for that meaning ((the one that probably doesn't exist)) is what keeps alot of people going, and if the meaning is to keep going, then looking for a different meaning is a really good idea. lol. Physicists seem to think the meaning is to become god, to control the universe. To wiggle the vibratory strings that compose us all in such a way that they can control whats happens in this particular illusion. -laughs- I hope we get there.

[420kidder]

I appologize If I offended you or anyone, that wasn't actually my intention believe it or not. I think we've covered the fact that there will always be people believing and not believing in religion. I'm done with this thread though. :)

[CocaCola]

It's all so simple really... and there is no improbability of a "Guy" who "Lives" some place in the "Sky". (I really don't know why people decided he would be in the sky and not below ground... more bullshit, ya know? Oh wait, but GOD TODL IT SO... but how? OMG FUCK IT, it's too complicated :P)

[ADaisyChain]

I bet there are (or are least were.. maybe) religions that think god is underground.

We bury our dead. I wonder what started that trend.

[ADaisyChain]

I appologize If I offended you or anyone, that wasn't actually my intention believe it or not. I think we've covered the fact that there will always be people believing and not believing in religion. I'm done with this thread though. :)

Its cool. Hopefully one day we won't be able to say there are people believing in religion. It could happen. The day all people think for themselves and create their own realities. Play god all by themselves, with no need to admire an external one. Who knows. Thanks for the apology, as you did offend me, lol. And I apologize too for calling you a kid, I think we both weren't being accepting enough and just fed off eachother or something. peas.

[CocaCola]

The concept of God is just to hard to fathom, like love... maybe that is why we are always in pursuit of it. but I'm done... that is it. It's the only reasonable explaination, to me.

I was thinking the same thing... we are what we make of ourselfs sub-concsiously. How do you know what you see as red, I see as Orange... or just something radically different. This can account for dreams... seeing into another reality? Seeing yourself as someone else perceives you? I don't know...

[ADaisyChain]

Love, love, love.
Love, love, love.
Love, love, love.

There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game.
It's easy.

Nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time.
It's easy.

All you need is love.
All you need is love.
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.

All you need is love.
All you need is love.
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.

Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.

All you need is love.
All you need is love.
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need.

All you need is love (all together, now!)
All you need is love. (everybody!)
All you need is love, love.
Love is all you need (love is all you need).

Yee-hai!
Oh yeah!
She loves you, yeah yeah yeah.
She loves you, yeah yeah yeah.

[CocaCola]

The thing is... maybe certain religions are on to something... I see religious people as being unreasonable because God defies reason. But there is no reason for existing... we just do... I mean, unless that reason is to become God. Goddamn!1

[ADaisyChain]

people choose their own meaning, there probably isn't even a universal meaning beyond progress, and each person has their own definition of progress. Timothy Leary tried to hook his brain up to a computer to keep it alive after death, phayld though. I think we'll succeed eventually though, if some clumsy scientist doesn't accidently drop one of the many superviruses we create first.

Two things would make us our definition of god, having an eternal conciousness, and being able to create conciousness at will. We're working on both. Because if 'artificial' conciousness made with a computer imitates 'real' conciousness in every way.. how is it artificial?

Lets play the game matrix style baby.

[CocaCola]

You and me, man... lol I know exactly what you're saying... that is what I believe adn what I ahve believed for some time now. I was even discussing with a friend (Who talks with me about this shit alot) and said that what if we're in the matrix? lol, I mean, who is to say? :D

[ADaisyChain]

lol, people on the same wavelength are always cool. Sorry though, I don't think we can rule the matrix together. I think if there are gonna be two people ruling it, it's gotta be a guy conciousness and a girl conciousness. For traditions sake or something.

And we are in the matrix, the creators of the matrix made the movie and made it somewhat cheesy so they could get a real big kick out of all the people saying "interesting but unrealistic..."

okay maybe not.. it was an interesting thought, but unrealistic.

[CocaCola]

lol, ignorance is bliss

[Professor Dan K.]

Wow.... reading that was amazing. This is one deep conversation, but as someone said earlier, you can go insane pondering these factors. I agree with everything you said daisy. Just think if you thought about this on shrooms lol!

[CocaCola]

I'm pretty sure it all stemmed from shrooms... this is some pretty beshroomed banter in this thread.

[ADaisyChain]

Psychadellics caused all my original well thought out religious questioning. Before I liked the drugs, my questioning was just rebellion, but before I tried the good stuff ((pot, salvia, shrooms, hb woodrose)) my brain never really went too deep into why I didn't believe in god. It was more of "Well... i dont c him. So hes fake." But then one day I was smoking pot and thinking about it and I was like "Wow, that's a really infant like way of thinking of things.. mommy walked behind a wall! she's gone forever!" kinda thing.

beshroomed banters where it's at.

[Oneironaut]

Sure, if Mommy walked behind a wall, you had actually seen her. You had real evidence that she exists. But if you don't have the slightest shred of evidence that fastastical beings like Santa Claus, leprechauns, unicords or gods exist, then it's only logical to assume that they don't.

What's really infantile, if you ask me, is leaning on an invisible friend/father figure during times of trouble rather than taking responsibility for your own life and your own problems.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

BAM! IT IS ILLOGICAL TO EVER ASSUME!


ok that's my digs.



logic is illogical if it is based on ASSUMING something doesnt exist because you dont have proof.

logic is illogical by being based on assumptions and perceptions.

maybe emotional logic is even more redundant, but at least im going with my gut. it just seems more logical to go with instinct over "logic".

[mrdevious]

logic is illogical if it is based on ASSUMING something doesnt exist because you dont have proof.




what? no it's not. it only becomes logical to believe something exists when there's pertinent evidence pointing to it's existence. If that logic were true, then it's illogical to assume there's no such thing as leprechaun's, fairies, klingons, mole people, and giant space jelly fish that roam the galaxy feasting on stars. anything my imagination can possibly conjure up can't be discounted by such logic. and until there's a logical reason, with real evidence towards god's existence, there's absolutely no basis for believing in his existence.

[Oneironaut]

BAM! IT IS ILLOGICAL TO EVER ASSUME!
Quite the contrary. We make thousands and thousands of assumptions during our day, and most of them are founded on logic. For example, when I bite into a banana, I assume that it's not going to be crunchy. This is an assumption; I have no way of disproving the idea that someone has secretly created a crunchy species of banana and slipped me one. But based on my past experiences and the extreme unlikelihood of the alternatives, I'm going to assume that any banana I bite into is going to be soft.

When I talk to my mother, I assume it's really my mother. I have no way of disproving the idea that she was abducted by aliens and replaced with a robot that looks and acts exactly like her, while in reality she is being held in Area 51 for experimentation. But I assume it's really her, and it's a logical assumption, since any alternative explanation of why there is a being that looks and acts like my mother is so unlikely that it would need substantial evidence to back it up if anybody is going to take it seriously.

logic is illogical if it is based on ASSUMING something doesnt exist because you dont have proof.
So it's completely illogical to assume that there is no colony of turtles living at the center of the earth? I bet you assume that there is no such colony of turtles, but I bet you don't have any proof that the colony of turtles is not there.

logic is illogical by being based on assumptions and perceptions.
Logic is illogical? That's like saying red is green, or up is down. It doesn't make any sense to say logic is illogical. Assumptions and perceptions are all we have to go on in this world. We are given sensory input, and we have to figure out how the world works to the best of our knowledge. This is done by observing the given evidence and coming up with theories (models of how the world works) that explain the evidence in the most plausible way. Inventing beings and saying they have to exist just because nobody has proven that they don't exist doesn't get us anywhere.

maybe emotional logic is even more redundant, but at least im going with my gut. it just seems more logical to go with instinct over "logic".
Huh? How is it "more logical" to choose intuition over logic? That's less logical and more intuitional. Less logic = less logical. More logic = more logical. Please try to pay attention to the language we've all agreed upon.

[ADaisyChain]

Sure, if Mommy walked behind a wall, you had actually seen her. You had real evidence that she exists. But if you don't have the slightest shred of evidence that fastastical beings like Santa Claus, leprechauns, unicords or gods exist, then it's only logical to assume that they don't.

Let me put it another way. "Only mom ever comes around. I must not have a dad!" But logic tells us, in order for us to exist we must have been created (by mommy AND daddy, so even if we can't see dad, he's around, we know he's around and it would be dumb to assume he's not)


What's really infantile, if you ask me, is leaning on an invisible friend/father figure during times of trouble rather than taking responsibility for your own life and your own problems.

Well, first of all, no one did ask you. ((lawl.)) And second, Yeah, you're right big time about it being immature to not take responsibility for you own actions, good or bad. No one here is saying its not. You aren't replying to the real argument that's been made though.

I don't believe in a god (besides that the universe may be god seeing as its probably infinite and can clearly create conciousness, whether by chance or not, it's done it, and those are my only pre-requisites for god) but don't you think its rather godly in the first place for something to exist without creation? Which the orinal existant thing has done.

Did coincidence create the existence of existence? What created physics, the universe, the orignial energy? We'll never know, I doubt it was some guy outside space and time making it all like a painter makes a painting, but it is really fucking weird, no? If we're going to use observational logic, we know that things don't just pop up outta nowhere.

I'm not making the argument that theres some invisible guy with an iron mallet carving all the mountains, everyone seems to forget that. I'm just saying, things don't just appear in our experience, so for the orinal physical thing that the universe as a whole spawns from to have just appeared, thats pretty miraculous in itself. The universe is more likely to be a godlike figure then something outside of it directing it all.

[ADaisyChain]

what? no it's not. it only becomes logical to believe something exists when there's pertinent evidence pointing to it's existence.

Would it also no be only logical to assume that something exists when there's evidence pointing to its creation. Something was the original uncreated. Though I doubt its some god who knows when we're naughty or nice.

If you think back far enough, the VERY first 'thing' to exist, could not have been created, but simply existed. Godlike, though not the omnipotent knows when your naughty and nice god religions speak of, but still something that can defy all possible observations.

[Oneironaut]

Let me put it another way. "Only mom ever comes around. I must not have a dad!" But logic tells us, in order for us to exist we must have been created (by mommy AND daddy, so even if we can't see dad, he's around, we know he's around and it would be dumb to assume he's not)
No, not quite. It seems that way based on our limited experience, but if you go back you're eventually going to hit a dead end in the chain of creators. To put it another way, if by logic everybody that exists must have been "created" somehow, then something must have also created the creator. And something must have created that creator. And so forth. At some point the chain has to be broken, and the theory of evolution provides an elegant and scientific solution to that problem, at least as far as life is concerned.

Well, first of all, no one did ask you. ((lawl.)) And second, Yeah, you're right big time about it being immature to not take responsibility for you own actions, good or bad. No one here is saying its not. You aren't replying to the real argument that's been made though.
I wasn't replying to anything with that statement. I was just stating an opinion of mine.

I don't believe in a god (besides that the universe may be god seeing as its probably infinite and can clearly create conciousness, whether by chance or not, it's done it, and those are my only pre-requisites for god) but don't you think its rather godly in the first place for something to exist without creation? Which the orinal existant thing has done.
Yeah, I've often been perplexed by the question of why there is something instead of nothing. But proposing a "creation" by a pre-existing God doesn't really solve that problem. I have a couple hypotheses on why this might be. Granted, they're just wild guesses, but at least I admit it when I'm just guessing about the origin of the universe. It goes something like this:

At the quantum level of our universe, everything is composed not of real entities but of probabilities. When we really try to examine the nature of a subatomic particle, what we find is not a concrete item but merely the probability that there is a particle at a particular location with a particular motion. The averages of all these probabilities, when viewed by creatures as large as ourselves, results in what we know as Newtonian physics. One interpretation of quantum mechanics, known as the "many worlds" interpretation, hypothesizes that a new universe is created for every possible outcome of every probability. There are a huge, maybe infinite, number of other worlds out there besides our own, with their own outcomes of every probability in all of history. So maybe originally there was an equal probability of there being nothing as there being something, and we happen to live in a world in which the latter probability was selected.

Or perhaps we are experiencing nothingness. Maybe, if you add up all the mathematical equations in the universe, when you add up all the matter and anti-matter, everything reduces to zero. To put it in other words: one plus negative one equals nothing, and we're living in the "one" part of the universe.

I can't prove any of this, and I'm not going to pretend any of it is true when I honestly don't know, but it's something to think about.

Did coincidence create the existence of existence? What created physics, the universe, the orignial energy? We'll never know, I doubt it was some guy outside space and time making it all like a painter makes a painting, but it is really fucking weird, no? If we're going to use observational logic, we know that things don't just pop up outta nowhere.
Actually, we do see things popping up out of nowhere. In a vacuum, there are pairs of particles and antiparticles popping out of existence all the time, and then quickly annihilating each other. Sometimes, like near the edge of a black hole, the particles will be separated, with one particle being sucked into the black hole and the other particle being ejected away from it. That might help explain where our universe came from, but then we have to ask why these pairs of particles keep showing up. I honestly don't know, and I'm okay with that. We may never know. But the "God" idea has not answered any of these questions. In fact, it just brings up a whole plethora of new questions, even when people manage to come up with a somewhat coherent definition of the term.

I'm not making the argument that theres some invisible guy with an iron mallet carving all the mountains, everyone seems to forget that. I'm just saying, things don't just appear in our experience, so for the orinal physical thing that the universe as a whole spawns from to have just appeared, thats pretty miraculous in itself. The universe is more likely to be a godlike figure then something outside of it directing it all.
What do you mean by "godlike figure"? If you just mean something really amazing, I would agree with you. The universe is an incredible thing. Just the sheer size of it is mind-boggling, not to mention its infinite beauty.

I like to call it the "universe" or the "cosmos", because those words are less confusing than something like "God" which has thousands of different definitions for different people (plus lots of people say it can't be defined at all). But if you want to call it "God" and show reverence for all of existence, I have no problem with that worldview. Just as long as you're not claiming it has powers we don't observe in it.

[mrdevious]

Would it also not be only logical to assume that something exists when there's evidence pointing to its creation. Something was the original uncreated. Though I doubt its some god who knows when we're naughty or nice.

If you think back far enough, the VERY first 'thing' to exist, could not have been created, but simply existed. Godlike, though not the omnipotent knows when your naughty and nice god religions speak of, but still something that can defy all possible observations.


this phrase seems to be one I hear constantly in god debates: "everybody knows something can't come out of nothing". but in fact, most people think something can't come out of nothing, when in fact recent breakthrough's in quantum physics have shown that atoms, which are comprised of subatomic particles, are comprised of their own condensed energy. that energy in itself is shown to have consequencial influence on physical mass, but posesses no real substance in itself. hence, the line between that which exists and does not exist is actually a very fine one when you really begin to understand the nature of existence. or more precisely, that which "is" and "isn't" isn't necessarily such a distinctively separate entity. the very nature of space itself, the core of existence, what we fooled ourselves into believing is "nothing" as opposed to our "something", is the true nature of existence.

[ADaisyChain]

-laughs- You guys are great. My brain is working at a thousand miles per hour right now. I'll respond after I've thought more, but I'm really impressed. And yeah, by godlike figure I just mean something that is truly amazing and defies all current explanation.

[mrdevious]

And yeah, by godlike figure I just mean something that is truly amazing and defies all current explanation.



so you mean like..... jessica alba naked?