question about christian view of homosexuality

[mrdevious]

I was just thinking, in christianity (and probably a bunch of other monotheistic religions) god is very against homosexuality and generally condemns you to hell for poking someone in the ass. might I ask why? is there some consequence, some harm done to god or society or somebody if you stick your penis in somebody's anus? what's the whole reason behind this ruling, or is it just accepted "because god said it" with no real reason given?

[psychopixi]

I think the general arguments are;

God said so.
It's dirty.
It's not natural.
Homosexuals corrupt our children!
Homosexuality means less families will be created, and less children raised.

Don't even get me started on countering those stupid arguments.

As an aside, when you consider the bible in it's original context - all those many many years ago - homosexuality would have been frowned upon slightly as no children would have resulted from the union - masturbation was discouraged for the same reason. The penis' function was to create babies.

[Oneironaut]

God, like any other totalitarian dictator, does not need to explain himself. God is perfect so there must be some reason for his actions, right? And if you use the free will God gave you to reason out some rules that are more logical than his, then you have to ignore them or burn.

[beachguy in thongs]

My God doesn't give a shit. My Lord doesn't care. The more queers, the less we have to worry about overpopulation.

edit:Dear God I Believe In You, Dear God I trust In You, Dear God I Love You. Amen.

[slipknotpsycho]

if everyman and every woman that could reproduce did (meaning all the gay people turned straight all of a sudden) this world would quickly become over populated, opposed to the rate at which it's moving now. as science grows stronger and stronger and we cure diseases that's more and more people that live when "they weren't supposed to" do n't get me wrong, i don't think anyone should have to die if they can be saved...but you have to think about it....the earths population steadily grows and grows the more and more people are saved from disease they before would have died from...if he was even real what could be his reasoning? that he wanted us to be so over populated we used every resource and we all died, or very few of us lived? i don't have the figures, but think about how many people there was back in a 1400's, then think about how how many more were in the 1800's as medicine started to grow, then look at now.....1400's North america didn't have that many humans inhabitting it, mainly just the indians, by 1800's parts of it were inhabited by new people as well as the indians, in the present time i'm going to guess atleast 1/2 of it is highly populated as well as all the other continents that had people back in the 1400's. imagine what it will be like by 2400, assuming no great disaster happens wiping out millions if not billions of people.

[beachguy in thongs]

All these diseases may be tests. We may have to purify the Earth in order for God to do what He's gonna do. Maybe the Second Coming, or Third, Fifth, whatever will be when the Earth is clean. I don't know. I was never taught the Bible, my view on it is God will someday come down "from the heavens" and grant us everlasting life.

[Oneironaut]

My God doesn't give a shit. My Lord doesn't care. The more queers, the less we have to worry about overpopulation.

edit:Dear God I Believe In You, Dear God I trust In You, Dear God I Love You. Amen.
Again, you're picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you want to believe in without any real guidelines. If you're going to use the Bible as a moral guide, you can't throw out some of the rules just because you don't like them. If you're not going to accept the Bible's wacky claims that God views homosexuality as an abomination (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm), how can you accept its equally wacky claims that Jesus is the son of God and a virgin? Where in it does God say "I was just kidding about that gay stuff, but Jesus really is divine"?

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

[Oneironaut]

All these diseases may be tests. We may have to purify the Earth in order for God to do what He's gonna do. Maybe the Second Coming, or Third, Fifth, whatever will be when the Earth is clean. I don't know. I was never taught the Bible, my view on it is God will someday come down "from the heavens" and grant us everlasting life.
So I'm punished with death just because I was born in 1985 and not 2985? What the hell did I do to deserve that? What a dick this God guy is. :mad:

[beachguy in thongs]

You're not punished, yet, calm down. We have to figure it out, together.

[beachguy in thongs]

So I'm punished with death just because I was born in 1985 and not 2985? What the hell did I do to deserve that? What a dick this God guy is. :mad:
Just forget about it.

[Oneironaut]

You're not punished, yet, calm down. We have to figure it out, together.
Yeah, let's figure it out together. Without relying on 2,000-year-old hate literature that has nothing to offer a modern society.

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

those laws are of ancient israeli culture, where obedience was the way seen to get closer to God. fundamentalist christians don't see it all that way, and do pick and choose their shit. it doesn't really matter though, because christianity teaches that love is ultimate.

Galations 5:6 "[6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
or translated to newer english
"For in Christ neither our most conscientious religion nor desregard of religion amounts to anything. What matters is something far more inerior: faith expressed in love"

so, if it doesn't matter if you're circumcized which is a law in Deuteronomy, then the same laws against homosexuality aren't detremental either.

[Monkey4Sale]

You know there are gay rams. OSU has a whole stable full of them, born that way and everything. There goes that not natural claim.

[psychopixi]

You know there are gay rams. OSU has a whole stable full of them, born that way and everything. There goes that not natural claim.
*nods* Yup, more than a few species of animals have been noted to engage in homosexual behaviour.

[slipknotpsycho]

funny you should bring that up, i used to have a cat (full grown) that would give my shih-tzu head....it would start off by licking it alot then eventually it would bring it to more intense lvls >.< not only were they both males it was intra-species!

[mrdevious]

I can't say I buy this "gay animals" stuff myself. animals just hump whatever makes them feel good while humping, "gay" and "bisexual" are just human inventions. while animals make take on mates of the same sex, that doesn't mean they'd actually reject another mate because of their sex, making them gay.

[beachguy in thongs]

In humans, I saw a study on how gay-men have more spots a their hypothalmus, or a certain part in the Medulla, I can't remember, women have more, and straight men have less. And some women have less spots on their thymus (maybe), making them manlier. But it was a study that proved that people are born to be gay... :glugglug:

So, right there, that would prove that God doesn't shun gays, if they're born that way.

[Mojavpa]

My God doesn't give a shit. My Lord doesn't care. The more queers, the less we have to worry about overpopulation.

edit:Dear God I Believe In You, Dear God I trust In You, Dear God I Love You. Amen.


Thats one theory, that gay people are here to prevent overpopulation. But I dont buy it, because you assume that gay people dont want to have biological children, which I dont think is true. The theory also assumes that all gay people are out, which is definately not true. Go to any gay chat room and you'll see that half the men are married.

Most gay men in the world eventually marry women, and most gay women in the eventually marry men. And the reason is obvious, most cultures not only look down upon gay behavior with disgust, but also frown upon the decision to not have a family. So, no, if there were no gay people in the world, the population wouldnt change drastically.

[Mojavpa]

I can't say I buy this "gay animals" stuff myself. animals just hump whatever makes them feel good while humping, "gay" and "bisexual" are just human inventions. while animals make take on mates of the same sex, that doesn't mean they'd actually reject another mate because of their sex, making them gay.

Monkeys and pigs and countless other animals do choose mates of the same sex when there are plenty of mates of the opposite sex to choose from.

http://home.insight.rr.com/snookems/queer/Arguments/gay-animals.html


I dont know why but research is exploring homosexuality in nature. Some questions to think about.

1)Are animals that are strictly homosexual conscious of the fact that they're not reproducing?

2)Are they "attracted" to members of the same sex, or do they think they're mating with a member of the opposite sex?

3)How do they choose mates of the same sex? Are there mating calls involved?

4)Why do some species of animals have a higher rate of homosexuality in their population?

Here is an interesting passage from the link:

"Life in the animal kingdom is a far more intricate and amazing ballet than most of us have ever dreamed. Take the swan lakes of Australia and New Zealand, for example. Among the elegant, red-billed black swans that nest there, the most successful parents tend to be male couples.
By combining their strength, a male black swan duo â?? mated for years or life â?? stakes out prime territory sometimes 100 times as large as properties left over for their neighbors. A male couple interested in fatherhood consorts with a female, shooing her away after she lays eggs. Or the homosexual couple forcibly adopts an egg-filled nest. Together, the male pair incubates the eggs and raises the chicks. The male couplesâ?? success rate is awesome: Though just 5 percent of black swan pairs, they parent 20 to 25 percent of surviving chicks." -Detroit news




This is a very fascinating issue, especially if you like to study animals.

[beachguy in thongs]

Thats one theory, that gay people are here to prevent overpopulation. But I dont buy it, because you assume that gay people dont want to have biological children, which I dont think is true. The theory also assumes that all gay people are out, which is definately not true. Go to any gay chat room and you'll see that half the men are married.

Most gay men in the world eventually marry women, and most gay women in the eventually marry men. And the reason is obvious, most cultures not only look down upon gay behavior with disgust, but also frown upon the decision to not have a family. So, no, if there were no gay people in the world, the population wouldnt change drastically.

I know, Moj-ster, that's just something other people have joked about. There's no possible way there will be enough gays to compensate for the useless teenagers having babies.

[psychopixi]

I can't say I buy this "gay animals" stuff myself. animals just hump whatever makes them feel good while humping, "gay" and "bisexual" are just human inventions. while animals make take on mates of the same sex, that doesn't mean they'd actually reject another mate because of their sex, making them gay.
I read a study which said that a certain percentage consistently chose a mate of the same sex, even though the opposite sex was available.

[Monkey4Sale]

I can't say I buy this "gay animals" stuff myself. animals just hump whatever makes them feel good while humping, "gay" and "bisexual" are just human inventions. while animals make take on mates of the same sex, that doesn't mean they'd actually reject another mate because of their sex, making them gay.


The gay rams have been given the option of mating with ewe's. They even have ewe's spread out amongst them. They will always mate with their male counterparts, therefore they reject the females, and are gay.

Animals also don't usually "hump" to feel good, they "hump" to procreate. Obviously two men can't make a baby. Also rams don't have the option of adoption. Very few species mate for reasons other than the continuation of their species. (In response to "hump whatever makes them feel good while humping" statement)

[Monkey4Sale]

Also, the OSU barn has over 50 rams, I'm pretty sure there are over 100 of them, but I'm not 100% positive, so I'm going with 50 for now. So, in Oregon 50+ rams are homosexual. Sure this seems like a small number, but the number of homosexuals to heterosexuals in humans(over all), is equally(or close to) as small.

[mrdevious]

The gay rams have been given the option of mating with ewe's. They even have ewe's spread out amongst them. They will always mate with their male counterparts, therefore they reject the females, and are gay.

Animals also don't usually "hump" to feel good, they "hump" to procreate. Obviously two men can't make a baby. Also rams don't have the option of adoption. Very few species mate for reasons other than the continuation of their species. (In response to "hump whatever makes them feel good while humping" statement)

alright, considering there's some objective studies I can believe there's gay animals. although, while I know it's the popular theory, I don't know for sure that they only screw to procreate and not for pleasure. I have my doubts for 2 reasons:

1. I've heard of many people in third world countries who have had tons of babies and actually dont' know why. there's actually people who don't know that sex will get you pregnant unless they are taught.

2. while some animals breed only in specific cycles, there's many who do so whenever they feel like it. I think anybody who's been around a fair amount of dogs in their lifetime has had their leg humped, and I'm pretty sure they're not trying to make babies with my leg, or the couch, or whatever else they hump when they get excited. plus, strange as this sounds, canaries are actually one of (if not THE) kinkiest animals around. they've been known to engage in same-sex intercourse, bisexual intercourse, orgies, oral sex, gang rapes, rapes, and a whatever else you can fathom. lol, I know that one surprised me too.

[WaStEdReAmS]

Im a Catholic. Have been all my life. According to our beliefs, homosexuality does not contribute to the recreation of life. If a man and a woman were to have sex, the purpose is to recreate. therefore, a man and a man engaging in sexual activities, do not create life. and as far as all this gay animal talk, i have no idea haha

[MudFu]

Wasted is right...It is told in the Bible (if you choose to beileve it) that God banished a city for its unclean acts which included homosexuality, amoung other things. Religiously speaking I do not think it is ture, if "God" created us he also created out emotions and knew this was a possiblity. Many, not all, churchs ban the acts of homosexuality. It is pretty much cuz mankind is well...full of morons...I don't care if someone is gay and why should I? If I can deal with it I think God, The all mighty and loving lord, should be able to deal.

[heavymetal101]

It's not about dealing with anything. It's purely that God is the Akmighty Creator of this world. And when he made the first humans, (along with everything else) He gave them a free will. The only rule that God gave Adam and Eve was to not eat the fruit off of one single tree. And they would have rather sinned and eaten the fruit rather than, live in forever happiness and purity.

Humans have been givin the choice to live as they want. God isnt going to interfere with what you choose to do, but once you die your going to be asked why you did what you did. And if you deliberatly disobeyd God then your going to hell.

Another thing, and which is the most important in Christianity is Faith. You have to Believe in what God has said and done. The Bible was wrote by a miracle of God, thats what how he wanted it to be done. He gives the message to a holy person and they relay it into a book. If you dont have faith in something, then your living for nothing.

[Breukelen advocaat]

All that is necessary, as it seems to me, to convince any reasonable person that the Bible is simply and purely of human invention â?? of barbarian invention â?? is to read it. Read it as you would any other book; think of it as you would of any other; get the bandage of reverence from your eyes; drive from your heart the phantom of fear; push from the throne of your brain the coiled form of superstition â?? then read the Holy Bible, and you will be amazed that you ever, for one moment, supposed a being of infinite wisdom, goodness and purity, to be the author of such ignorance and of such atrocity."
[Robert G. Ingersoll, "The Gods", 1872]

[Psycho4Bud]

Catholic girls
With a tiny little mustache
Catholic girls
Do you know how they go?
Catholic girls
In the rectory basement
Father rileyâ??s a fairy
But it donâ??t bother mary :thumbsup:

[Sinsemilla Jones]

have a stick up their ass!

:p

:stoned::rasta::pimp::smokin:

[MudFu]

Humans have been givin the choice to live as they want. God isnt going to interfere with what you choose to do, but once you die your going to be asked why you did what you did. And if you deliberatly disobeyd God then your going to hell.

You say it as if you choose to become gay/lez. Its not a choice. Either you are or you are not. If you are, you can pretend your not but thats all it is, pretend.


The Bible was wrote by a miracle of God, thats what how he wanted it to be done. He gives the message to a holy person and they relay it into a book. If you dont have faith in something, then your living for nothing.

Very nice. Yes it was a miracle. But the Bible we have is not the same Bible that was writen all those years ago. Our Bible has be altered. Sections have been cut, parts added and things never translated. Our Bible is made only of what we wanted in it.

[beachguy in thongs]

have a stick up their ass!

:p

:stoned::rasta::pimp::smokin:

Are you type that lets the mosquitos gather around your face??? The reason why they are buggers is because they're bugging you, I could see how they'd get a stick up their ass, the bugger put it there.

[Sinsemilla Jones]

Lighten up! It's a joke!
;)

If you laugh hard enough that stick might just come flying out.
:p

But if you like it, you'll love a penis!
:thumbsup:

[Pyramidsonmars]

I was just thinking, in christianity (and probably a bunch of other monotheistic religions) god is very against homosexuality and generally condemns you to hell for poking someone in the ass. might I ask why? is there some consequence, some harm done to god or society or somebody if you stick your penis in somebody's anus? what's the whole reason behind this ruling, or is it just accepted "because god said it" with no real reason given?

Homosexuality is detestable to God for the reason that it is a natural path of the human sexuality without God. God's gift of sexuality, the fact that we enjoy expressing this love to our other half ("for this reason a man shall leave his family and be united with his wife and they shall become one flesh") is because it is a gift from God. Homosexuality is the bending, breaking, and abusing of that gift to fit our natural corruption without God. The real question is why do some people naturally turn to this unnatural lifestyle? Looking at this honestly; what causes people to somehow decide that normal sexual function doesn't appeal to them?

This is the best verse I can find that explains what homosexuality is and where it came from (or at least the motives behind it)

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ??his eternal power and divine natureâ??have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ??who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

It's when man has turned away from God that we fall short of any good. Homosexuality saw a great rise in the 70's-90's, and for that reason the aids epidemic hit the gay community so hard. It's not REALLY punishment from God, but rather the natural side effects that occure when we do something we shouldn't. It logically makes sense that anal sex would have a higher risk for aids both biologically (the anus isn't supposed to be fucked, duh, and in turn gets cut and bleeds) God won't protect you unless you're turned towards him, not because he doesn't love you and care about you, but rather because you have remained in your sin and cannot be anywhere near God (not in terms of location but purity, or "holiness".

Don't get me wrong, homophobic people are in no place to judge gay people, because homosexuality goes no further than being just another sin. You may as well say all gluttons go to hell, or gossips, or whatever

[Pyramidsonmars]

You say it as if you choose to become gay/lez. Its not a choice. Either you are or you are not. If you are, you can pretend your not but thats all it is, pretend.



Very nice. Yes it was a miracle. But the Bible we have is not the same Bible that was writen all those years ago. Our Bible has be altered. Sections have been cut, parts added and things never translated. Our Bible is made only of what we wanted in it.

People who say that they didn't chose to become gay or lesbian parallel those people who say they are addicted to food. Both claim that they are not in control of this, and that the alternative isn't available to them. We as a species do not have the same craving for food as our appetite for sex, therefor when we give in to our sexual temptation, we tend to tell ourselves it's natural...those addicted to food STILL get criticized for being fat. WE NEED TO FIGHT FOR GLUTTON RIGHTS! People should be able to eat as little or as much as they feel like. Sure we'll have a nation of fat-assed lazy people, but I can garuntee that a nation that fullfills it's every sexual desire would be a LOT less healthy.

Think about it from this light: It is usually only those who are huge food addicts, or those who are starving that dream and think about food...likewise our addiction (and I do believe we're now addicted) to sex is due to our feeding the appetite. Those who are sexually deprived, or those who are sexually gluttonist (if you'll allow the word) are in the same state of sexual craving. It's because our nation glorifies sex so much that we feel we should keep pushing the envelope. The more we bend the rules, the more we wish them to be bent. Right now we bend the natural rules of procreation by allowing same sex lifestyle into our culture, but next comes animals, and then trees, and then rocks, or worse.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in being tolerant of gay people. I never pass judgement on one because they could just as easily turn around and say something about my flawed life style as well.

[F L E S H]

Sure, asshole, people just wake up one day and "i'd like to get beaten for no other reason than I like people of my own sex, I like to go through periods of painful identity crises, I choose to be gay because it spices up life!"

Christianity has demonized any sex whatsoever since the very beginning. Why? There is no point to it at all. All it leads to is nothingness. Preach on all you like, but to live a totally sin-free life one should never have any sex at all, even if it's for procreation.

Christianity preaches the end of life, it preaches nothingness, ultimate nihilism. It preaches that our life is bad, and the only good Christian is a dead one (so he can be closer to God, of course...). Fuck that. I believe in life, I believe in the here and now. There is something inherently wrong with a religion that says that death is better than life.

[StOneD.aS.FuK]

god expects EVERYONE to love him...but it says in the bible that being gay is a sin...well GOD, you CANT jus be gay any time you want, its not something you choose. gay people are BORN gay. if you discriminate your own creation. you dont deserve to be a god! u SUCK
u will never get my love. cunt

[Pyramidsonmars]

Sure, asshole, people just wake up one day and "i'd like to get beaten for no other reason than I like people of my own sex, I like to go through periods of painful identity crises, I choose to be gay because it spices up life!"

Christianity has demonized any sex whatsoever since the very beginning. Why? There is no point to it at all. All it leads to is nothingness. Preach on all you like, but to live a totally sin-free life one should never have any sex at all, even if it's for procreation.

Christianity preaches the end of life, it preaches nothingness, ultimate nihilism. It preaches that our life is bad, and the only good Christian is a dead one (so he can be closer to God, of course...). Fuck that. I believe in life, I believe in the here and now. There is something inherently wrong with a religion that says that death is better than life.

I believe you have a very mis-informed picture of what christianity actually preaches as opposed to what people say it preaches.

A gay person makes their own choices, and that's the way it is. I liken it to fat people who make the decision to eat too much of the wrong food and get made fun of for being fat, EVEN if they're born with obtuse appetites, or of fat parents...it all boils down to that choice of deciding what you want rather than giving in to whatever wants you.

Christianity clearly states that sex is a gift for two people to share who are already united (by marriage) under God, which is why marriage is a religious invention (and no other religion seems to hold it to such an importance as christianity). The REASON that all other sex is concidered "evil" (by evil I mean sinful) is because of the intention that goes behind it. Believe me, we weren't given a sex drive so that we could blow off steam every time we wanted...just like we are given a stomach, mouth, taste, and digestion, but that doesn't mean food is simply "here to be eaten"

I have to use the parallel between our appetite for food, and for sex because they are just too similar...the urge/cravings/self-esteem that are involved in both.

[Pyramidsonmars]

god expects EVERYONE to love him...but it says in the bible that being gay is a sin...well GOD, you CANT jus be gay any time you want, its not something you choose. gay people are BORN gay. if you discriminate your own creation. you dont deserve to be a god! u SUCK
u will never get my love. cunt

Firstly, people are born asexual...secondly you would have no argument that people are born gay save the testimony of a handfull of gay people ("every man's actions are innocent to him" anyway).

So, seeing as babies have NO sex drive (baby boys and girls are almost the same for the first few years) that dismissed any claim that people are BORN gay.

Secondly, we humans have no actual sense of perfection, therefor we don't see our own actions as anything so bad. I won't get too into this, but there is not ONE rule or law in the bible that wouldn't benifit humanity if it were followed...not one, and you can try me. That's not to say at first glance that some might seem odd to us, but keep in mind that absolute good would seem very strange to us

[StOneD.aS.FuK]

So, seeing as babies have NO sex drive (baby boys and girls are almost the same for the first few years) that dismissed any claim that people are BORN gay.



of coarse babies are not born sexualy active, just like no one is born able to speak. or walk. thats no excuse saying they will not be gay in the future.

[beachguy in thongs]

Who's to say that a baby can't have homosexual tendencies? Have you ever seen a queer-baby drink his bottle?

[Pyramidsonmars]

Who's to say that a baby can't have homosexual tendencies? Have you ever seen a queer-baby drink his bottle?

A baby can't be gay because a baby can't be straight...

@ Stoned as Fuck

of coarse babies are not born sexualy active, just like no one is born able to speak. or walk. thats no excuse saying they will not be gay in the future.

Ok...you're right about that. Like I said, that doesn't mean you're "born" gay.

[siSTARindigo]

my god is not hateful, and only a hateful god would have a problem with such a thing. There is a differance between lust and love. Lust is supposedly a sin for hetrosexuals as well as homosexuals. LOVE cannot be wrong, no matter who it is you love. I think God created homosexuals for the same reason he created blacks, whites, browns, yellows and reds. We are all supposed to have differences so we can learn from eachother. I personally believe we are all here to learn. That is why we are here, we can't learn while in "heaven" because it is perfect. So we come here, like school.

Think about it. It is mostly in times of hardship that we grow. Yes, we also grow in good times, but that is only because we can appreciate them in the contrast of bad times.

Just my opinion. I accept all beliefs, I try to change nobody. We are all on our own paths, doing and believing excatly what we are supposed to be doing or believing.

Eva

[beachguy in thongs]

A baby can't be gay because a baby can't be straight...

I would like something to back that up.

You are saying is that we are born with no preferences. That a baby can't tell the difference between it's Mother and Father. That we are emotionless robots when we enter existence.

I'm looking at changing the legal age to 16 months.

[beachguy in thongs]

I kind of went off on a tangent, sorry. I was amusing myself. It has been scientifically proven that homosexuals have more spots on their (either) hypothalmus or hippocampus.
Whereas, men are born with less and women are born with more. It's been proven that people with homosexual tendencies are somewhere in between. I can't remember the study because it was done in the 90's and this is old news.

[psychopixi]

It's complete bullshit that you can pick and choose what sexuality you want to be.

Could you make a conscious decision to only be attracted to men? Do you really think you could control that? How about if you make a conscious decision to only be attracted to ugly people?

Just because you've decided you -ought- to act in a certain way, doesn't mean you can force yourself to really -feel- that way.

And what's this crap about comparing homosexuality to people who're addicted to eating? If you're addicted to anything then you can curb your addiction. You can work to become not-addicted. You can't work at becoming gay or straight, it's built into you. If you want to compare sexuality to food, then compare it to a need for food. You're engineered to be attracted to one sex or the other, or both, in the same way you're engineered to need food to survive. It's coded into you, there's nothing you can do that will change it.

Sure, you can pretend, but that's all it can ever be - a pretence. You can get married, and have children, and go through the motions every night, but you'll never feel the same as a straight man would performing those actions. In the same way, you can convince yourself that you don't need to eat, but your body knows differently.

Finally, why the fuck did a baby's lack of sexuality come into conversation? Of course babies don't have a sex drive - they're -babies- for crying out loud. That doesn't mean that they won't grow up to have a sex drive, and it doesn't mean that once that sex drive develops it won't be targeted at a particular sex. So yes, you can be born gay because you're born with it hard coded into who you are. The fact that you're not attracted to men from the instant your mother gives birth to you doesn't change a damn thing.

[siSTARindigo]

It is total crap when people say that being gay is a choice. For those who believe this, I ask you a question. What if you woke up tomarrow and the "majority" of the world was gay, and you were still hetro? How would you feel if everyone was telling you to just quite trying to get attention, or whatever. And say that you played along, and acted gay just to fit in. How would you feel about that? If the thought of being with the same sex makes you sick, then a rational person would agree that this goes the same for those who are gay.

And for those talking about the bible, there are about 30 different version, all of which have been translated about by 30 different people into 30 different languages. The bible is a book, not a manual. A book that is not complete, this is proven by the ommision of the book of enoch. Who decided the book of enoch shouldn't be in the bible? The authors of the bible, who were humans, not god. Humans are flawed, period.

I am not saying the bible doesn't have some truth to it, but it should be kept in perspective. Especially when it comes to things like being gay as a sin. This thought has ruined peoples lives, caused suicides. People who are born into hugely religious communities truly believe they are the devils spawn or something, over something that they have no contol over. Very sad :(

Eva

[Musician]

I think that, just as Buddha said, even if himself says somthing your own reason does not beleive, even if the Bible says it, even if everybody says so, do not beleive what you think is nonsense. I beleive in a god, but i think if everybody would have more judgment they could beleive in something intelligent, instead beleiving all what they read or whatever.

No fuckin christians have any arguments to be against homsexual. It is just so stupid. People need to beleive in themselves, not in what they have been told to think.

[Pyramidsonmars]

I would like something to back that up.

You are saying is that we are born with no preferences. That a baby can't tell the difference between it's Mother and Father. That we are emotionless robots when we enter existence.

I'm looking at changing the legal age to 16 months.

Whoa, let's back up for one second. There's a huge difference between human sexuality, and general knowledge. Boys and girls are the same until they are about hmm...I'd say 4-6, becauase that's when they start to realise there is a difference. That DOESN'T have to mean that they would be born emotionless robots! Our human sexuality doesn't kick in as an instinct until puberty! This is common sense people.

But anyway, think about people who "claim" to fall in love with animals. Do you think they're born this way? If not, than what would convince someone they had nothing but animals to be attracted to? Those people are very real btw

[Pyramidsonmars]

It's complete bullshit that you can pick and choose what sexuality you want to be.

Could you make a conscious decision to only be attracted to men? Do you really think you could control that? How about if you make a conscious decision to only be attracted to ugly people?

Could you make the concious decision NOT to eat cake? I'll bet you could, but someone who's crumbled under the temptation time and time again might not be able to say no. THe reason sex and food are so similar in context is because both are instincts we have, involving an appetite.

[/QUOTE]
If you're addicted to anything then you can curb your addiction. You can work to become not-addicted..[/QUOTE]

right :)

.[/QUOTE]
You can't work at becoming gay or straight, it's built into you. If you want to compare sexuality to food, then compare it to a need for food. You're engineered to be attracted to one sex or the other, or both, in the same way you're engineered to need food to survive. It's coded into you, there's nothing you can do that will change it..[/QUOTE]

Ok, we're engineered to procreate with the opposite sex, if you want to talk "design". Nothing else.

Attraction is purly a spiritual/intellectual situation. There's no difference between a gay man's body and a straight man's body.

[/QUOTE]
Sure, you can pretend, but that's all it can ever be - a pretence. You can get married, and have children, and go through the motions every night, but you'll never feel the same as a straight man would performing those actions. In the same way, you can convince yourself that you don't need to eat, but your body knows differently..[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm talking about. You're body knows you need to eat as well as it knows you're built for sex. The problem lies with OUR use of eating/sex. We eat more and more until what USED to be a lot to us is now a regular meal. The same goes with sex. There is no formidible argument for homosexuality. Not one...that doesn't mean it's not widely defended by people who won't see it for what it is. That's not to say that gay people are any worse than you or I. It's important you know I mean THAT as well.

[/QUOTE]
Finally, why the fuck did a baby's lack of sexuality come into conversation? Of course babies don't have a sex drive - they're -babies- for crying out loud. That doesn't mean that they won't grow up to have a sex drive, and it doesn't mean that once that sex drive develops it won't be targeted at a particular sex. So yes, you can be born gay because you're born with it hard coded into who you are. The fact that you're not attracted to men from the instant your mother gives birth to you doesn't change a damn thing.[/QUOTE]

Babies arn't born with sex drives - dismisses that anyone's "born" gay.
Now you're arguing that it could be written in us like some fatefull coding about what we're supposed to like...but that would serve no logical explanation (nor do you have any proof) as to WHY nature would've given us this quality. It's NOT abundant in the animal world, despite over populations of animals, so it's no method of pop-controll either.

What I'm doing is asking questions as to WHAT homosexuality is. So far I've found nothing other than answers telling me it's what sex becomes when left in the hands of humanity for too long.

Think about this; if sex is a divine creation with a perfect purpose, than it will niether be exploited, nor idolized (much like it is now)...I believe humanity has yet to see it's true sexuality

[beachguy in thongs]

Whoa, let's back up for one second. There's a huge difference between human sexuality, and general knowledge. Boys and girls are the same until they are about hmm...I'd say 4-6, becauase that's when they start to realise there is a difference. That DOESN'T have to mean that they would be born emotionless robots! Our human sexuality doesn't kick in as an instinct until puberty! This is common sense people.

But anyway, think about people who "claim" to fall in love with animals. Do you think they're born this way? If not, than what would convince someone they had nothing but animals to be attracted to? Those people are very real btw
That's all bullshit, I had a girlfriend the year before I started Kindergarten. She was a schooler. Smart girl.

They're born different.

[beachguy in thongs]

I'm sorry, I was eating ice cream.

I was only kidding about gay babies drinking bottles.

[beachguy in thongs]

I understand that coming into the world is a tough thing, and sex is the last thing on our mind. No matter what, their hypothalmus has a certain number of spots on it, women have more and men have very little. Well, in the 90's, they proved that homosexuals, and even bisexuals, have more spots than straight men.

[Pyramidsonmars]

I understand that coming into the world is a tough thing, and sex is the last thing on our mind. No matter what, their hypothalmus has a certain number of spots on it, women have more and men have very little. Well, in the 90's, they proved that homosexuals, and even bisexuals, have more spots than straight men.

I did a little research on that, and I think you should provide a link to back up your claim. What I read seemed a lot different. They said that gay men and women react differently than straight men to certain smells. Unfortunatly they have to use some evolutionairy grounds for something that could be as simple as the testosterone levels in gay men, compared to straight men.

[mrdevious]

I think it's legit because I learned that in psychology, that women have a hypothalamus 2x bigger than mens, and homosexual men have one about 90% the size of a womans, sometimes equal.

[beachguy in thongs]

I did a little research on that, and I think you should provide a link to back up your claim.
"Today, due to scientific advances, we have a better understanding of homosexuality. Because of new insight into the genes that determine sexual orientation some believe that homosexuality is a genetic trait. A National Cancer Institute researcher reported that many homosexual men appear to inherit a gene from their mothers that influences their sexual orientation.

"Research also shows that the genes are present within families and that relatives of homosexuals are more likely to be homosexual. Being gay is not simply a choice or purely a decision.

"There is a part of the gay community that fears that the discovery of a gay gene will be misconstrued as something that should be cured."

http://webpages.marshall.edu/%7Ewoods18/homosexuality.htm

[beachguy in thongs]

In the search for biological correlations with homosexuality, the hypothalamus, a small lobe that hangs down at the base of the brain has been found to play a significant role. There are two different areas of the hypothalamus that have been found in rats to correspond with male typical and female typical sexual behavior. For example, the medial preoptic area (more towards the front of the hypothalamus) seems to underlie many male sexual behaviors and sexual behaviors typical to females have been linked with the ventromedial nucleus (more towards the back of the hypothalamus). (A. Soulairac and M.L. Soulairac, 1956) Critics of these studies argue that the hypothalamus plays a very insignificant role in sexuality. When the medial preoptic area is decommissioned in male rats, they are still sexual beings. The express interest in female rats, but appear to be unable to express their interest. It doesn't seem to occur to these rats to mount the female. The case is somewhat similar with primates. Male rhesus monkeys will masturbate, showing an interest in pleasurable stimulation. However, having lost the medial preoptic area, they completely lose interest in femalesâ??seemingly forgetting that females can provide a means to the same end. (Slimp, Hart and Goy, 1978)

The hypothalamuses of mammals (rats, gerbils, macaque monkeys and others) have been found to be sexually dimorphic, more specifically in the medial preoptic area. The difference in size has been directly correlated with hormone levels in utero and directly following birth. If testosterone is given to a female rat just prior to and following birth, the size of the medial preoptic area of her hypothalamus will fall within the range of that found in non-treated male rats. (R.A. Gorski, J. H. Gordon, J. E. Shryne, and A. M. Southam, 1978) When female adult rats were given testosterone, there was no change in the size of this area of their brains.

This region is also different in humans, but the research involving hormone levels has not been done on humans (for obvious reasons). However, research, upon death, has delved into the sexually dimorphic regions of the brain. In 1980, Roger Gorski found that the interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH), numbers 2 and 3 (there are four of these nuclei, were sexually dimorphic. The size differential between males and females was most apparent in INAH 3. In males, this nucleus can be from two to three times larger than it is in females. This difference spans all age groups, meaning that the differentiation must occur at some time before birth.

http://www.goshen.edu/bio/Biol410/SrSempapers01/christiana.html

[beachguy in thongs]

(1) From Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene" researcher, and himself a gay man:

"Genes are hardware...the data of life's experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of what's installed at the factory and what's added by the user."

--P. Copeland and D. Hamer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.


(2) From psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.:

"Like all complex behavioral and mental states, homosexuality is...neither exclusively biological nor exclusively psychological, but results from an as-yet-difficult-to-quantitate mixture of genetic factors, intrauterine influences...postnatal environment (such as parent, sibling and cultural behavior), and a complex series of repeatedly reinforced choices occurring at critical phases of development."

--J. Satinover, M.D., Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth (1996). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

[beachguy in thongs]

Q. When you refer to the â??gay gene theory,â?� what do you mean?

A. We refer to two ideas: one, that one gene has been found or will be found that controls the expression of homosexual (or heterosexual for that matter) attractions and two, that a gene or genes has been or will be found that directly determines the direction of oneâ??s sexual affections.

These temperamental traits will predispose children to prefer activities that are either gender conforming or gender non-conforming. Those children who prefer gender non-conforming activities develop feelings of difference from same sex peers and come to view those of the same sex as being other than them, akin to being the opposite sex.
http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=129

[beachguy in thongs]

â?¢ The researchers found 3 locations in the genome where self-identified gay and bisexual brothers share DNA sequences between 8-12.5% greater than expected by chance.
â?¢ In one location, 7q36, the gene sharing was great enough to be considered suggestive that the DNA sequence might be close to a gene that controls or influences sexual orientation.

[psychopixi]

Could you make the concious decision NOT to eat cake? I'll bet you could, but someone who's crumbled under the temptation time and time again might not be able to say no. THe reason sex and food are so similar in context is because both are instincts we have, involving an appetite.
Okay, how about this analogy:

Cake and sex are both things you can have an appetite for. But it's only an appetite for the food, or the sex. Your preference may be only for cake, or a specific gender though. Generally, you can't consciously decide to enjoy the taste of something. Your body decides that for you. Same for sexual preference.


Ok, we're engineered to procreate with the opposite sex, if you want to talk "design". Nothing else.

Attraction is purly a spiritual/intellectual situation. There's no difference between a gay man's body and a straight man's body.

We're designed that when a male and female have sex, there is a chance of creating a baby. But what about oral sex? Is oral sex between a man and woman wrong, because there is no chance of a baby being made? What about anal sex between a man and a woman?

And, yes there is a physical difference - not on the outside, but on the inside, in the genetics - beachguy in thongs has given you evidence for that.


Babies arn't born with sex drives - dismisses that anyone's "born" gay.

No, it doesn't. They are born one way or another, because it's part of their genetics. When they develop a sex drive it will be aimed at one sex or another, or both.

Think of it like height. We obviously aren't born at the height we will eventually grow to be, but we will eventually reach that height.


What I'm doing is asking questions as to WHAT homosexuality is. So far I've found nothing other than answers telling me it's what sex becomes when left in the hands of humanity for too long.

Sex left in the hands of humanity? What do you mean by that? They've recently discovered evidence of the first gay kiss - as an Egyptian wall mural. It's not something that's happened recently because we've become bored with hetero sex!


Think about this; if sex is a divine creation with a perfect purpose, than it will niether be exploited, nor idolized (much like it is now)...I believe humanity has yet to see it's true sexuality

But it isn't a divine creation. It's just a simple fact of life. It's the way we procreate. There is no perfect purpose, there is no right way to get your happies! It's an animal instinct, not something we do because God thinks we should. I'm not Christian, and I enjoy a healthy sex life, nothing to do with a higher power.

[Pyramidsonmars]

Cake and sex are both things you can have an appetite for. But it's only an appetite for the food, or the sex. Your preference may be only for cake, or a specific gender though. Generally, you can't consciously decide to enjoy the taste of something. Your body decides that for you. Same for sexual preference.

We have healthy food, and unhealthy food. In general, someone who is addicted to food is addicted to unhealthy food...I haven't heard of a case where someone was addicted to fruits and vegtables.
Sex is along the same lines. It's something that the human race needs, in order to continue, and at the same time it's pleasurable. It's only human nature to exploit it into something also unhealthy.

We're designed that when a male and female have sex, there is a chance of creating a baby. But what about oral sex? Is oral sex between a man and woman wrong, because there is no chance of a baby being made? What about anal sex between a man and a woman?

The bible talks about sex in a physical, AND spiritual way. Sex between a husband and wife is pleasurable and brings them closer together on a spiritual level. Any sexual activity, if it's between two married people is not only "allowed" (provided it's a positive use) by God, it's also "blessed". The bible clearly says that men and women were built for one another in not only physical ways, but emotional, and spiritual ones as well. Two men would never share the same "spiritual" closeness that a husband and wife could have during sex.

And, yes there is a physical difference - not on the outside, but on the inside, in the genetics - beachguy in thongs has given you evidence for that.

He has given me evidence supporting a theory. The evidence is there alright, but keep in mind we hardly know anything about the brain, let alone how the mind might manipulate it.

No, it doesn't. They are born one way or another, because it's part of their genetics. When they develop a sex drive it will be aimed at one sex or another, or both.

That's an assumption based on whether or not the above is correct. You're saying that when a baby is born, it's "programmed" to either be gay, straight, or bisexual when it hits puperty (roughly the age when girls and boys become attracted to another)...the thing is that there's an 8-12 year window of opportunity for that childs mind to develope either one way or the other, and we hardly have any idea of how experiences and psychological trauma/manipulation might affect this child...

Think of it like height. We obviously aren't born at the height we will eventually grow to be, but we will eventually reach that height.

But there's no limit to the heights we could grow (to an extent). There are so many things like nutrition, excersise, and posture that change these things. With sexual orientation, it would be like saying that we're either born to be 5ft6, 6ft5, or both ;)

Sex left in the hands of humanity? What do you mean by that? They've recently discovered evidence of the first gay kiss - as an Egyptian wall mural. It's not something that's happened recently because we've become bored with hetero sex!

The bible has a story about a place called Sodom, where the people there had become so sexually corrupted that the whole town turned to homosexuality. Homosexuality is a very old thing indeed. It's not something that's ever had to evolve, because it's always been there. It takes time to grow, but it's ever present. I'm not arguing that homosexuality is a new thing, but I AM arguing that it's only NOW started to become a globally accepted thing. It's because as humanity is starting to gather itself together (which on the outset would be a good thing) it also uses this "unity" to corrupt itself on a much larger scale. Instead of multiple divided groups making multiple small mistakes, we're starting to have one large group making one large mistake.

But it isn't a divine creation. It's just a simple fact of life. It's the way we procreate. There is no perfect purpose, there is no right way to get your happies! It's an animal instinct, not something we do because God thinks we should. I'm not Christian, and I enjoy a healthy sex life, nothing to do with a higher power.

Sex is a simple fact of life because it is a divine creation. It is something that is only pleasurable because God has given us that pleasure to share with our spouse. Unlike animals, we actually fall inlove with our mates, therefor sex could hardly be JUST a physical thing. Sex is physically pleasurable, but it's also spiritually/mentally pleasureable, and it's ONLY fullfilling its full use when it's in a married situation.

[dj defibrillator]

To throw more scientific research in: a few years ago the University of MN psychology dept. did a "twins reared-apart" study. The results? In cases where one IDENTICAL twin is gay (and, 'reared-apart, ie. never had any contact with straight identical twin, or their parents - often they were reared on opposite corners of the globe), approximately 48% of the time SO IS THE OTHER TWIN. This is from a sample of, if I remember right, roughly 50 identical twin sets in which at least one twin is gay (again, reared-apart).

Basically, this study proved that the odds are definitely in favor of there being at least SOME genetic link, if not cause for homosexuality (I am in no way trying to make homosexuality sound like a disease or something) - in much the same way that there is a genetic link for intelligence, personality, etc. (all of which were also studied and proved in the same U of MN study, by the way).

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

so who here is pro christian-anti-gay? i'd like to know if there's really a reason for this thread, and weather there's a reason for me to post.

[halo]

Maybe God never condemned homosexuality. Maybe the people who wrote the bible were anti homosexual and wrote anti gay stuff cause they knew theyre work would be highly read and respected.

I go to catholic school and my theology teacher always says that God did not write the bible. The bible was inspired by God. God did not dictate to someone and say write this down.

So its probably the authors putting their own beliefs in it and also back then there were far less people and maybe more people meant more people to work the farms and therefore more food.

No one knows the thoughts of God. The only thing God ever dictated to man was the 10 commandments

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Maybe God never condemned homosexuality. Maybe the people who wrote the bible were anti homosexual and wrote anti gay stuff cause they knew theyre work would be highly read and respected.

I go to catholic school and my theology teacher always says that God did not write the bible. The bible was inspired by God. God did not dictate to someone and say write this down.

So its probably the authors putting their own beliefs in it and also back then there were far less people and maybe more people meant more people to work the farms and therefore more food.

No one knows the thoughts of God. The only thing God ever dictated to man was the 10 commandmentsahhh but how do you KNOW the ten commandments are, in fact, god's dictations? how do you know they did not do like you said, and make that up, but SAY god said it?