Religion vs. Spirituality READ FIRST

[STDzRus]

No matter what you believe in, Atheism, Altruism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Sun Tzu, Taoism, Xaoism, or personal spirituality.

Religion is man made. It requires you to follow set rules and specifications to fall into that class of religion. If one does not follow these rules than one is deemed unfit for spirituality by that religion.

Whereas Spirituality is man made, in his own perspective and not by the whole of a people or group. So one man can find God, Higher Power, divinity, understanding or truth in his own terms without the "Book of God" (written by man) or any other book or church or set rules.

If anybody can word this better please do.

[beachguy in thongs]

I'd say Religion was created when we developed language (learned that at The College of St. Rose) and Spirituality was never developed, it's a way to understand Our conscience.

I'd rather go to Spiritual Class than Religion Class.

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

religion was created with the intention of helping spirituality. that was one attempt of getting people aware of spirituality, but man fucks shit up and obviously religion has temporarily failed us.

[daves19]

religion was created with the intention of helping spirituality. that was one attempt of getting people aware of spirituality, but man fucks shit up and obviously religion has temporarily failed us.

hits the target..religion no matter what it is, is about spirituality, but in religion there is a leader and than you are not the true master of your own destiny...

[Oneironaut]

Religions are tools of control. Especially the monotheistic ones, which say that you must bow down to the rules of some supreme totalitarian dictator of the universe. Religions must always be learned from other people. For example, if you were raised in isolation from the rest of society and had no way of learning about Christianity or Islam, you would not arrive at these religions by yourself. The rules don't come from some booming voice in the sky, but rather from the priests. In olden times they had much more power to control society, because there were a lot more things which could not be explained through science. People thought that the weather, diseases, earthquakes and the like were created by invisible spirits that rule over us, and the priests were able to exploit the resulting fears by telling everybody that the "spirits" gave them certain rules, and if everybody followed the rules the "spirits" would be appeased. Go to church every Sunday and you won't suffer diseases, give money to the priests and there won't be any earthquakes, kill the infidels or there will be more storms, that kind of thing. But fortunately, as science advances religions are losing their grip on society, and people are starting to see things for how they really are. As we learn more about how the universe works, religion has been retreating into those extremely complex areas that today's science doesn't yet completely understand, like consciousness, sociology, the origin of life and so forth. Now the priests can only instill fear with vague statements which are less effective than those of yesteryear. Send money to the televangelists and your "soul" will be "saved", suppress your sexuality and there won't be any rips in the "moral fabric of society", vote for members of our religion and you won't burn forever in the "underworld", etc.

But spirituality, as you attempt to define it, is how the individual understands the workings of the universe by himself, without the need of any intermediaries trying to control society's thought patterns or ancient books written by such intermediaries. It is how one comes to terms with what they've experienced, what I like to call one's "worldview" or "weltanschauung". Unfortunately this is still often tainted by religious tenets, but less so than in the past. For example, it used to be that all Christians had to believe in Hell, had to believe the Bible to be the literal word of God, had to believe that homosexuals are all wicked sinners, and so forth, or else they weren't considered Christians at all. Now a lot of Christians are questioning those beliefs. Christianity itself is no longer this strict set of thousands of dogmatic rules, but at the very least a vague set of ideas about Jesus and God and immortality. You see the same thing happening with the other major religions. In the future I predict this trend will continue so that almost everybody forms their own worldviews based on their own experiences, without the need for dogmas, priests or ancient texts.

[UnViaje]

obviously
fukk religion

[mrdevious]

oh man, last week I got a good laugh. I was at the gas station and this family in a minivan is in front of us (every member of the family grossly obese too), and it was covered in some pretty extreme relgious bumber stickers. the first one I saw was a simple "jesus saves" which automatically made me think of the Slayer song by the same name lol. then I was kind of disgusted at the biggest bumber sticker that said "why worry? god is in control!". I mean damn, if you want god in your life then go for it, but we're not abdicating all responsibility to him. I can't believe how people can't see that religion was innitially developed to give us spiritual insight and what they percieved as a clear path to attaining it, but was soon and innevitably enough used as a means of control. it's perfect, you have a supreme dictator, his knowledge is perfect and unquestionable, you'll suffer in eternal agony if you do question, and whatever the leaders say is the word of god, so not only do you have a dictatorship, you have one that everybody actually believes in!

[beachguy in thongs]

That's not my view of God, Mr. D.

I believe God allows us to make mistakes and have questions.

No Hell or Eternal Agony. If God is really there then he'd understand our questions.

[Oneironaut]

Obviously that's not what Christianity is about, if the Bible is anything to go by. It is very clear about this: anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to be subject to the wrath of an angry God. This is not a creature of love. It is one that demands eternal fear for its subjects. Jesus and his followers most certainly believed in Hell and eternal punishment, or else they would not have gone on about it so much. If you don't believe the Bible's claims of a Hell, how can you believe its equally ridiculous claim that Jesus is the son of the big invisible totalitarian dictator of the universe?

And these [unbelievers] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Gandhi Ganjamaster]

religion was created when a group of people shared a common spiritual belief

[Oneironaut]

I just realized how similar the Christian God is to Hitler. Not only is he a brutal totalitarian dictator, but he's going to burn all the Jews just for not believing what they are commanded to believe. It's no wonder Hitler was such a fan of him.

I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.

[beachguy in thongs]

Hey, Ermontito, I'm Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact, and my God isn't going to burn any jews, in fact, he allowed one to live in a house with six others, including me, when I was up at college in the North Country of New York.

[mrdevious]

oh man, last week I got a good laugh. I was at the gas station and this family in a minivan is in front of us (every member of the family grossly obese too), and it was covered in some pretty extreme relgious bumber stickers. the first one I saw was a simple "jesus saves" which automatically made me think of the Slayer song by the same name lol. then I was kind of disgusted at the biggest bumber sticker that said "why worry? god is in control!". I mean damn, if you want god in your life then go for it, but we're not abdicating all responsibility to him. I can't believe how people can't see that religion was innitially developed to give us spiritual insight and what they percieved as a clear path to attaining it, but was soon and innevitably enough used as a means of control. it's perfect, you have a supreme dictator, his knowledge is perfect and unquestionable, you'll suffer in eternal agony if you do question, and whatever the leaders say is the word of god, so not only do you have a dictatorship, you have one that everybody actually believes in!


Just to be clear to everybody (as it seems I wasn't), the above post wasn't a description of the general populace who believe in god, I was referring to the more fanatical branch, and more particularily, the church officials throughout history (not just in christianity) who controlled the masses through such means. I know there's a lot of christians who don't think like that, i used to be one of them.

[Oneironaut]

Hey, Ermontito, I'm Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact, and my God isn't going to burn any jews, in fact, he allowed one to live in a house with six others, including me, when I was up at college in the North Country of New York.
I was referring to the God as represented in the Bible. You know, the one that 2 Thessalonians 18 refers to when it says "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". If you don't want to believe in the Bible, that's great. But I still don't understand how you can reject all the various parts of the Bible that say all non-Christians are going to suffer eternal punishment, yet accept the equally ridiculous claims in it that say Jesus is the son of God. Which parts do you think are fiction, and which parts are so undeniably true that to reject them would be unthinkable? Would you care to enlighten me?

[Oneironaut]

Oops, that should read "2 Thessalonians 1:8", not "2 Thessalonians 18".

[beachguy in thongs]

I was referring to the God as represented in the Bible. You know, the one that 2 Thessalonians 18 refers to when it says "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". If you don't want to believe in the Bible, that's great. But I still don't understand how you can reject all the various parts of the Bible that say all non-Christians are going to suffer eternal punishment, yet accept the equally ridiculous claims in it that say Jesus is the son of God. Which parts do you think are fiction, and which parts are so undeniably true that to reject them would be unthinkable? Would you care to enlighten me?

Well, this Bible I have doesn't even have a 2 Thessalonians 18. It ends with 2 Thessalonians 2:17 (...comfort your hearts and give up strength in every good thing you do and say.)
2 Thessalonians 1:18 and 3:18, don't exist.


1 Thessalonian 2:18 is "We wanted very much to come, and I, Paul, tried again and again, but Satan prevented us."

Again, I'm not sure what types of Bibles everyone's reading with all these extra words, The King James Bible, or something?

edit: OH, OKAY

[beachguy in thongs]

Well, the letter, reportedly from Paul, speaks to the people who are being persecuted and those that God will punish are the ones doing the persecuting.

That is a rather strong passage.

[Oneironaut]

I still can't see an interpretation of this passage which allows for a universe without everlasting punishment. Especially when the very next verse says "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". In any case, there's no reason to take any of this stuff any more seriously than we take Greek mythology.

[beachguy in thongs]

I still can't see an interpretation of this passage which allows for a universe without everlasting punishment.

I got one, I got one, let me try...

Umm, okay.


What's the passage, again?

Well, Paul wrote that story after he'd ran away from Thessolonica, when he went to visit, because of intense persecution and he was kind of pissed, that's what I think. But he still had to convince the others that those who had died, before Christ's return, wouldn't miss out on the resurrection and that believers would be the first to rise from the dead.

Eh, that's my bible study session for today, has the sun came up, yet?

[opiuser]

there is no such thing as a collective spirituality. nobody beleives the exact same thing.

even in a christian church, a buddhist monestary, an Islamic temple, etc... everybody may describe their god the same way and refer to the same scriptures, but in their head, they all see a different face when they think of God. They all take the meaning of a certain passage a different way.

and since they dont all think of it the exact same way, that would mean that only one man knows the true god.

FUCK THAT. i beleive god is the combined gods, philosophies, and beleifs of every person, living or dead. God could possibly be a concious being with a "soul", "entity", or whatever you want to call it... but higher than all, god is everything combined into one, all the "good" and the "bad", yin and yan... The devil and jesus... If god created this, we are part of her and he is part of us.

[beachguy in thongs]

I was referring to the God as represented in the Bible. You know, the one that 2 Thessalonians 18 refers to when it says "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". If you don't want to believe in the Bible, that's great. But I still don't understand how you can reject all the various parts of the Bible that say all non-Christians are going to suffer eternal punishment, yet accept the equally ridiculous claims in it that say Jesus is the son of God. Which parts do you think are fiction, and which parts are so undeniably true that to reject them would be unthinkable? Would you care to enlighten me?

I'm sorry, the Thessolonians must've threw me off.

Many religious scholars believe that a lot of the stories in the Bible are parables. That's what I learned in Religious Studies at College.

Adam and Eve, I believe is a parable. The parts that are quoted are truly words spoken by men 2,000 years ago. Some people may have twisted their words, I don't know the differences between Bibles (King Frank's, Church of Holy Jeheezascrew, Mostle at the Tossle of the Apostle, etc...). I don't know, are the quotes the same in all the Bibles? I couldn't tell you, but if I look up something in the Bible, it looks true. Or at least possible.

Okay...I'll look at 12:9 Ecclesiastes - Because the Teacher was wise, he taught the people everything he knew. He collected proverbs and classified them.

That statement is brilliant. If everybody taught in that manner, this world would be full of geniuses.

As for as false...

I can't say that I don't believe the Lord never said, "Let there not be light."
Or, to take out the double negatives...

Bam, the Universe was created. As for the false?

Ruth 2:8 - Boaz went over and said to Ruth, "Listen, my daughter. Stay right here with us when you gather grain; don't go to any other fields. Stay right behind the women working in my field."

Wait a minute. Ruth's old enough to work, she should be able to go to any field she wishes.

Numbers 33 - tells about the people that marched ouit of Egypt and their intinerary and stuff.

Isaiah 44:14 - The LORD your Redeemer, the HOly One of Israel, says: "For your sakes I will send an invading army against Babylon. And the Babylonians will be forced to flee in those ships they are so proud of.

The next sentence says The Lord is Israel's King.

[beachguy in thongs]

In the beginning there was nothing. God said, 'Let there be light!' And there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it a whole lot better.
- Ellen DeGeneres

[beachguy in thongs]

I'm sorry, that was Isaiah 43:14 ^^^

He also said, The Lord, your Holy One, Israels Creator AND King. I am The Lord.

In a part called The Saviour of Israel