How To Prove The Existence Of God

[ermitonto]

I thought this was pretty funny. It turns out the Bible contains an example of a very simple experiment any Christian could perform to prove the existence of their deity. Biblegod doesn't really hide his existence like so many of his followers claim; in his own book it shows how he sent a very clear message confirming his existence to unbelievers, in an objective experiment whose results could easily be reproduced if indeed there is such a being. Any Christians willing to try it out for me?

http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/evidence/How%20To%20Prove%20The%20Existence%20of%20God.htm

[ermitonto]

...

[STDzRus]

Tonight, I'm going to smoke some sage and see if I can't wander in the heavens with the Gods.

[acidtrip]

Hey man, I am currently doin' philosophy and religion in college and we've been doing arguments to prove the existance of God. I'll give you some brief explanations simply to give myself some revision..

Actually - its 4 AM here. I'm fucked and need some sleep. If anyone is interested I'll post some shit tomorrow.

[slipknotpsycho]

THEN all the Atheists, per pre-signed agreements, will convert on the spot to Christians and burn their Atheistic books.

i'd ask him why he's speaking for me (on the slight chance it did happen) but yea...you me and everyone else know that it woudln't happen so we'd be safe...i really doubt the christians would hold up to their end tho...they'd have some excuse ready to fire (no pun intended) back at you....

[acidtrip]

Motion
In the universe, there are objects in motion, each object in motion must have been caused to move by something else. Because nothing is infinite, there must have been a first motion or "prime mover" which was unmoved, this prime mover began all movement without bieng moved, Aquinas stated that the "prime mover" must have been God.

Causes
Nothing can be the cause of it's self, as it would have to 'exist' before bieng caused. This of course is impossible, so like with motion there must have been a first "un caused" cause, that started a chain of causes. This is God.

Contingency
There must have been a time when nothing existed, the cause of the universe would have to be outside of the universe and must have always existed. There muse have been something to cause the universe to exist, this is God.

Of course, this can also be applied to the big bang. So you could say

God = the Big Bang.

[ermitonto]

Motion
In the universe, there are objects in motion, each object in motion must have been caused to move by something else. Because nothing is infinite, there must have been a first motion or "prime mover" which was unmoved, this prime mover began all movement without bieng moved, Aquinas stated that the "prime mover" must have been God.

Causes
Nothing can be the cause of it's self, as it would have to 'exist' before bieng caused. This of course is impossible, so like with motion there must have been a first "un caused" cause, that started a chain of causes. This is God.
These are really two different forms of the same argument. And they're easily refuted, since, as you said yourself, everything requires a cause and nothing can be the cause of itself. Therefore, if there is a God, what caused God if God cannot possibly be the cause of himself? And if we're willing to allow a single exception to such a rule, why postulate the existence of a God? Why not simplify things and just say that the universe was the cause of itself, rather than saying some big invisible undetectable creature was the cause of itself, which then started the whole universe thing?

And why could the chain of causation not extend back forever? I know it's hard for us humans to imagine, since we only ever experience finite amounts of time, but there's no scientific reason it couldn't be the case.


Contingency
There must have been a time when nothing existed,
Says who?

the cause of the universe would have to be outside of the universe and must have always existed. There muse have been something to cause the universe to exist, this is God.

Of course, this can also be applied to the big bang. So you could say

God = the Big Bang.

But that's misleading. Nobody prays to the Big Bang, nobody worships the Big Bang, and there is objective data to support the idea that there was a Big Bang. Plus, the Big Bang is no longer around. So why call it God?

[slipknotpsycho]

....if nothing ever existed, nothing could form and exist.....i can't think of a way to explain it better in my head..but i know what i'm trying to say....there must have always been something....how could a planet have ever formed if there wasn't space for it to form and dust to produce the material needed to form a planet. how could the dust have formed if there wasn't a planet to explode, or a meteorite/astroid to hit a planet and well we all know what happens when they're big enough....

[beachguy in thongs]

Gases in space mixed together when there was nothing, but there was air/space/nothing. They somehow created a super novae, and that somehow created stars, I don't know.

[mrdevious]

....if nothing ever existed, nothing could form and exist.....i can't think of a way to explain it better in my head..but i know what i'm trying to say....there must have always been something....how could a planet have ever formed if there wasn't space for it to form and dust to produce the material needed to form a planet. how could the dust have formed if there wasn't a planet to explode, or a meteorite/astroid to hit a planet and well we all know what happens when they're big enough....


actually, something can theoretically come out of nothing. Stephen Hawking explained something about space-time fluxuations (or something with space-time) caused the 1/1000th of a second simultaneous occurance of matter and anti-matter particles which destroy each other as quickly as they appear. however, some factor caused them not to wipe each other out again, causing the first matter. but, I havne't read it in years so you'd have to read his works your self unfortunately.

[acidtrip]

Plus, the Big Bang is no longer around. So why call it God?

Yea, thats true, after all God is omnipresent (I think thats the correct term)

[ermitonto]

Yeah, the only conception of God that has ever made any sense to me is to define "God" as the totality of the universe itself, that is, the sum of all the matter and energy that exists. I don't object to that definition of God at all. I see no problem with having reverence for all of existence. After all it is a grandiose and beautiful thing. And it's even been proven to exist to boot. But I choose not to call it God because it's nothing like the non-physical spirit thing most people take that word to mean.

[Polymirize]

have your courses covered Hume at all?

The entire notion of Causation hasn't been completely resolved with modern philosophy.

Having said that, to take a more modern approach, if one considers the big bang to be the expansion of everything that exists, and existence is still occuring (right?) then of course God (=the big bang) is omnipresent...

or something?

[WalkaWalka]

you guys are just babbling now it dosen't realy matter to me I'll live my life how see fit and i don't need God for that

[slipknotpsycho]

the saddest thing to me at all of most christians...is that they spend their whole life telling people blah god blah, and then when they actually do die...they more than likely will never know that they were wrong....not in a rub your face in it type of way...but i wish that they would know that they were wrong...

[Joel]

Motion
In the universe, there are objects in motion, each object in motion must have been caused to move by something else. Because nothing is infinite, there must have been a first motion or "prime mover" which was unmoved, this prime mover began all movement without bieng moved, Aquinas stated that the "prime mover" must have been God.

Causes
Nothing can be the cause of it's self, as it would have to 'exist' before bieng caused. This of course is impossible, so like with motion there must have been a first "un caused" cause, that started a chain of causes. This is God.

Contingency
There must have been a time when nothing existed, the cause of the universe would have to be outside of the universe and must have always existed. There muse have been something to cause the universe to exist, this is God.

Of course, this can also be applied to the big bang. So you could say

God = the Big Bang.


Acid , I am one firm believer in the sciences of space.

Have you not herd of the bigbang theory?

[CocaCola]

Something about Gravity and Electro-weak, strong and magnetic forces, forming a singularity and caused the big bang reverse blackhole thing.

[acidtrip]

have your courses covered Hume at all?

The entire notion of Causation hasn't been completely resolved with modern philosophy.

Having said that, to take a more modern approach, if one considers the big bang to be the expansion of everything that exists, and existence is still occuring (right?) then of course God (=the big bang) is omnipresent...

or something?


Yea we've also been covering Hume, along with Kant,etc.

For the most part I agree with Kant, he said that the beginning of the universe is probably something too complex for us humans to comprehend. Kant also stated that for God to have created the universe, he would need to be external to space and time, so how would we have knoledge of him (or something along those lines)

I really love doing philosophy and religion at college, lol I can remember a few years ago before I was doing drugs, I didn't believe in any kind of religion or spirituality at all, I thought it was all a load of bullshit. But drugs have showed me the way :)

Getting stoned before RE lessons has it's advantages and disadvantages, I find I can understand alot of it much easier when I'm stoned, I just have trouble remembering it, so it's pretty cool discussing it with you guys because it lets me revise :)

[Ganj]

Motion
In the universe, there are objects in motion, each object in motion must have been caused to move by something else. Because nothing is infinite, there must have been a first motion or "prime mover" which was unmoved, this prime mover began all movement without bieng moved, Aquinas stated that the "prime mover" must have been God.

Causes
Nothing can be the cause of it's self, as it would have to 'exist' before bieng caused. This of course is impossible, so like with motion there must have been a first "un caused" cause, that started a chain of causes. This is God.

Contingency
There must have been a time when nothing existed, the cause of the universe would have to be outside of the universe and must have always existed. There muse have been something to cause the universe to exist, this is God.

Of course, this can also be applied to the big bang. So you could say

God = the Big Bang.

about halfway through reading your post, i said, "the big bang". maybe the reason for religion is to keep fear out of the hearts of men. we live all this time, work so hard for our lives, yet we can't take any of that with us when we die. it's a "promise", that when you leave this earth, you'll live a life with god, a more abundant life. life after death? sounds familiar, uh? we spend so much time wondering about the meaning of life, and no one's come up with an answer. millions and millions of years, asking this question, and no answer. when maybe the only answer is, to live. life on earth is by far the most wonderful experience a human can participate in. look at what we've accomplished on this planet. look at what we live through when we wake up each and every morning, it's amazing. to be able to live on a planet, floating in a seemingly endless environment, surrounded by other planets, by asteroids that could hit us whenever they wanted, we live. any slight explosion in space could send a global-destroyer our way, this very instant. living amongst that danger everyday, is absolutely amazing in my eyes.

[death of sXe]

There is no god. No amount of drugged up doublespeak is going to prove it!

[STDzRus]

I think that all the planets are god's testicles and we are his little sperm. Which is why we all die.

And all the people who go to "heaven" are the good sperm who actually make it.

If there really is a heaven I bet you there are less people there than thought.

Funny how when a hardcore gangbanger dies, when ANYBODY dies, they always have a priest and they say he's going to heaven.

The Church is a sellout.

God is going to hurricane their asses.

[Joel]

I think that all the planets are god's testicles and we are his little sperm. Which is why we all die.

And all the people who go to "heaven" are the good sperm who actually make it.

If there really is a heaven I bet you there are less people there than thought.

Funny how when a hardcore gangbanger dies, when ANYBODY dies, they always have a priest and they say he's going to heaven.

The Church is a sellout.

God is going to hurricane their asses.

HAHA That last part is especially great.

Anyways, I myself do not believe in god, there is no physical evidence of his existance, only mental.

Having a mental vision of god in your head can be caused by many things of hallucination.

Some religions apparently fast to have visions of there god, but when you go without food for 5-6 days, you start to hullicinate, not have a fucking vision, wake up you fucking muslims!

[slipknotpsycho]

there is no mental evidence of him either....and actually the only real mental evidence that can be is something that proves something to one's self....because until we make a machine that can display people's thoughts for everyone to see, someone can be speaking to you from their mind, and you wouldn't really know if it was evidence, or a fictional story....

[slipknotpsycho]

oh yea and muslims aren't the only one's that fast...my *psychotic* father does it very often as well, and he's christian (or so he thinks)

[beachguy in thongs]

Some Catholics fast during Lent. The only evidence I have is that God was with me when a station-wagon dented my driver's door, went through my clutch, and into my seat.

I have two more, one of chicken wings in the driver's seat, can't find those until I tear down my bookshelf.

edit: My webcam is reversed, that dent is actually on the passenger's side.

[Joel]

Im confused beachguy, you took those photos of YOUR crashed up car with your webcam??? :S.


Slipknot : That is why I do not believe in god, I only believe in what people have prooved. Christians fast because they think they have a vision of god wich they do not, the 'vision' is just a hallucination due to the lack of nutrients/foods the body requires to stay active and function correctly.

[beachguy in thongs]

Those were pictures from a digital camera, taken after the accident.

The reason why people fast is because they get drained of energy and start feeling closer to God (because they're getting light-headed).

[Joel]

Yes, they also have hallucinations, in wich they think they see god and therefore think he is real.

[beachguy in thongs]

I would fast as a way to get rid of the "evil" thing we call food. I'm against it and believe we should abandon it, altogether. Except for charred medium-rare New York strip steaks.

Not even a donut is as healthy as cannibus. Nor a turkey.

What they see is an imprint of an image left by someone else on their eyes. Kind of like a flashback. Maybe I'm wrong.

[STDzRus]

They should harvest marijuana fruits.

Marijuana Mango.

[STDzRus]

And if you look at it from another perspective.

Adam and Eve supposedly did EAT an apple. It was never said whether or not they ate before that, but maybe eating is one of the sins. Maybe when we started eating God said "your evil" and took away or everlasting. Just think...one time...we were all a nutstain in Adam's undies.

Anyways, these crazy people that fast, could be practicing something to show that they are closer to God by respecting his wishes and not eating food or "the apple".

[acidtrip]

wow STDzRus, thats a pretty good theory. I never thought of it like that before :)

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

And if you look at it from another perspective.

Adam and Eve supposedly did EAT an apple. It was never said whether or not they ate before that, but maybe eating is one of the sins. Maybe when we started eating God said "your evil" and took away or everlasting. Just think...one time...we were all a nutstain in Adam's undies.

Anyways, these crazy people that fast, could be practicing something to show that they are closer to God by respecting his wishes and not eating food or "the apple".
1. they were told they could eat from any other tree, there is a specification that eating isn't wrong although i know you're just trying to be a smartass

2. if you make a sacrifice for someone, it's making a devotion. those crazy people who fast, are fasting to show a devotion. not to other people, but to God whom they believe whole-heartedly exists. it's also a way of sort of controlling glutonny, cuz almost everyone in modern society is a gluton.

[Killa.Kali]

You could have just titled this thread 'Proving that my imaginary friends are real'

How can you prove the existance of a made up character? Your talking about someone you've never seen or encountered and yet you can supposedly verify his or her existance. Hes in your mind, just like the bugs under the skin of a crack addict - in--your--mind!

[P.E.N.G.U.I.N.]

What if you had an experience with God when you were in perfectly good health and not fasting or under the influence of any type of drug? I have a couple. One converted me back from atheism, and the other one is just a story that happened a long time ago at my parish.

I had been an atheis for about 3 months. I was just like all of you and had all the same arguments. Then, on Easter day, my parents dragged me to Mass because they thought it'd be a "Good thing" for me to go. Well, for those of you who are not familiar with the Easter Mass in a Catholic Church, we renew our baptismal vows halfway through the service. Everyone who has been baptized takes a lit candle in their hands and the Preist says our vows and we repeat them. Well, when everyone took their candles and started saying their vows, I noticed something very strange about the candles. Every one of them had a strange aura around them. It was like a red-gold aura. The flames of the candles, not the people. This became more and more noticable until we finished that part of the Mass, at which point all the auras disappeared. While I saw the auras I also felt like there was something inside my head that doesn't belong there. It wasn't unpleasant just...strange. That day I converted back to Catholocism.

A long time ago there were about 10 people having a bible study thing in the basement of the parish I go to (Saint Marguerite's). About an hour into the study, all the lights went out. This is normal, sometimes the power substation gets struck by lightning or a strong wind disconnects some wires and puts us all in the dark for awhile. Well, the only source of light they had was a lighter someone happened to have in their pocket. They went looking around the church for a candle, and the first one they came across was the Baptismal Candle. These candles are very precious and are only supposed to be lit in important ceremonies. Well, since they didn't want to go stumbling throughout the church looking for a lesser candle, they just lit the Baptismal Candle. As soon as they lit it, the entire main part of the church (where you hold Mass) Lit up from the light of that one candle. It was just as if all the lights were on, but all the light fixtures were black. Pretty strange. That light lasted until the power came back on, when it suddenly vanished. A huge space lit up by one candle...Explain that one.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

you cannot prove god.

to prove you can do something, solely for the sake of others believing, is merely showing off, and is not a true reason to perform a miricle, therefore, it will be greatly difficult to prove it.


but if there is a reason to perform a miricle, most "failsafes" the mind places on itself will be removed, except the "i know i can do this" one (unless you know you can do that lol).


so in other words, you cant perform a miricle unless you need to, or at the very least, feel a great enough need.


this is why i, as much as i know, cannot do as much as i know, for i see no reason to even know what i do! kinda sucks...


someone told me that makes me an oracle...

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

(i'd edit this into my other post, but nooooooooooo)
you cannot not have an experiance with "God" (or the great spirit, or allah, or the mind, whatever else you want to call it.) for all that is, IS god.

[P.E.N.G.U.I.N.]

So that means that God is the cumulative minds of all people forming only One Mind, and that all physical "reality" is just a creation of that mind?

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

yes.

[STDzRus]

That meeting you had with God was your subconscious voice.

[P.E.N.G.U.I.N.]

My way of thinking has been changed by The Oracle. He and I will just preach until we find our Neo because we use the Matrix as a vague parable to help see the Truth. Yeah it probably was just my subconscious looking for a reason to believe in God.

[greenfrog]

I think religion is evil and spirituality is a personal experience, nobody can prove or disprove. It is a proven scientific fact though that people that pray tend to heal faster. Maybe its that positive imaging effect.

[beachguy in thongs]

Religion isn't evil. Maybe an evil Religion is evil.

I took Religious Studies in college (The Study of Religion, not a certain one) and a lot of people believe that Religion was created the same time Language was. Calling the Sky "Sky", became personalized and soon the Sky would be mad. Sky God.

Our brains (as of when I was 14) use 6-7%, people use different parts. Maybe Faith and Hope have their own place, which we could use as a vehicle to reach other parts (like ESP). If you visualize a Free Throw (in Basketball) before you shoot it, it raises the chance that you're gonna make it. I guess it's that positive imaging thing.

[greenfrog]

more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason, thats evil.

[greenfrog]

Even today our president says god told him to fight the good fight in iraq. merci!

[F L E S H]

Religion isn't evil. Maybe an evil Religion is evil.

I took Religious Studies in college (The Study of Religion, not a certain one) and a lot of people believe that Religion was created the same time Language was. Calling the Sky "Sky", became personalized and soon the Sky would be mad. Sky God.

Our brains (as of when I was 14) use 6-7%, people use different parts. Maybe Faith and Hope have their own place, which we could use as a vehicle to reach other parts (like ESP). If you visualize a Free Throw (in Basketball) before you shoot it, it raises the chance that you're gonna make it. I guess it's that positive imaging thing.
I say religion is indeed evil. Religion has consistently thrown a stick in wheel of progress and education. Every religion at one point or another has discouraged education among its practitioners, or has been terrified of new scientific discoveries that disprove its creeds. I think that anything that puts a limit on human potential is evil.

[beachguy in thongs]

You're saying that Zao Jun is an evil God? He's worshipped in China, a poor man with bad luck in Love and died in a fire. There are lots of Religions that have no limitations. Every other Roman Catholic I know could give a shit about practicing the religion devoutly. Religion is not an important role in anyone's life that I come into contact with. I don't associate myself with anyone whose life is consumed with Religion, like "Jehovah's Witness" or "Methodists...lol" or "Bible Thumpers", I was gonna play with a Christian Band but the girl sent me to many passages from "King James'" Bible, so I started talking about my view on life, and the weed talk pissed her off.

I'm sure Physicists and Astronomers still follow Religions and not let it hold back their research.

Pray for Herb.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

i wouldnt nessacarily say that the worshiped are evil, rather the worshipers are.

[beachguy in thongs]

Even today our president says god told him to fight the good fight in iraq. merci!

I don't know who his God is...