Thinking About Human Evolution

[ermitonto]

Fundamentalists, this is not the thread for you.

I've been thinking lately about human evolution. Evolution is a process that affects all species, and there is no reason to believe it has stopped working in mankind. In fact, it is well known that species which have to suddenly adapt to a new environment evolve more rapidly than others. Now, in the past 10,000 years, just 1% of the time in which modern Homo sapiens has existed, we've witnessed the creation and flourishing of civilization, by far the most dramatic change of environment our species has ever faced. Change in our environment has been accelerating at even more incredible rates since the Industrial Revolution.

It stands to reason, then, that human evolution must also be accelerating, right? No doubt that with a new environment there will be new criteria for selecting who lives to pass on their genes, and those criteria will manifest themselves in the genetic code of our descendants.

But are we overlooking a critical factor? With the rise of sanitation and modern medicine, it has been possible to save the majority of people who, in the wild, would otherwise have died from poor genes. People with debilitating disabilities and diseases of a genetic origin are often now able to stay alive and reproduce. Certain symptoms of these conditions that might otherwise repel potential mates are also minimized, and they may even appear to be perfectly normal. So, if all these people with poor genes are allowed to live in safety with the help of modern civilization, might we actually be slowing down the process of evolution?

What are your thoughts on this? Is our evolution speeding up, slowing down, or staying the same? What do you think is the next evolutionary step for our species?

P.S. Here is another thing to think about. How much is mate selection these days based on genes, and how much is it based on personality characteristics? And what effect does that have on our evolution?

[mrdevious]

you dont' exactly know what evolution is do you?

[ermitonto]

Why do you say that?

[mrdevious]

I've been thinking lately about human evolution.Evolution is a process that affects all species, and there is no reason to believe it has stopped working in mankind. In fact, it is well known that species which have to suddenly adapt to a new environment evolve more rapidly than others?

there is quite a reason to believe it stopped in mankind. evolution isn't a magical process that happens every once in a while just because, as presented in X-men. it's the result of natural selection. a member of the species that has an advantage in attracting mating partners, or asserting dominance, becomes dominant in the human gene pool. when a species adapts to their environment, the individuals do not actually change. rather, the members of the species that are most suited to surviving in the environment will become prominent in the gene pool. because we have society, government, and welfare programs (and the such), those who would naturally end up dead and out of the gene pool are artificially kept alive by government and societal assistance. for example, if we cure all the cancer patients, those more prone to getting cancer will not die and be removed from the gene pool, hence cancer will persist.

btw, I'm not saying we should let everybody die.

[mellow mood]

heres wut i think: humans reached a certain level of evolution. now, we focused so much on improving our condition by inventing new things, technology, etc etc that we forgot the pure esence of the meaning of our existence

now ppl are regressing. we became all brainwashed by today's society, all those stupid concepts, materialist etc, and we are now only wolves trying to dominate other living creatures because of our domination mecanism.

world is gettin bad, there are extremist etc etc, ppl dont know what to think, were killing ourselves each others, were exploting ppl too. so wut i say is we reached a certain level of intelligence which finally resulted in regressing our state.

we have now good living conditions, while 75% of world population is dying, and we forgot our spirituality. we are goin straight to the end of the world.

we reached a plateau. now its too late. were killing our planet. were gonna die. so i think humans evoluated during all these years in a certain way, while we completly regressed in an other. thats wut i tink. there is still a lot of good ppl on this earth, but not enough. trust me, it is hard to resist to this big machine called society and government. if your not like everyone else, your not a good cityzen. we end up with suicides, depressions, etc etc etc

well i said all what i tought :)

peace

[ermitonto]

there is quite a reason to believe it stopped in mankind. evolution isn't a magical process that happens every once in a while just because, as presented in X-men. it's the result of natural selection. a member of the species that has an advantage in attracting mating partners, or asserting dominance, becomes dominant in the human gene pool. when a species adapts to their environment, the individuals do not actually change. rather, the members of the species that are most suited to surviving in the environment will become prominent in the gene pool. because we have society, government, and welfare programs (and the such), those who would naturally end up dead and out of the gene pool are artificially kept alive by government and societal assistance. for example, if we cure all the cancer patients, those more prone to getting cancer will not die and be removed from the gene pool, hence cancer will persist.

btw, I'm not saying we should let everybody die.
Evolution is a constant and gradual process. It does not stop for any species. Why would one assume that we have reached the end of our evolutionary path, when our form has been evolving consistently for 4 billion years? Evolution is the constant change of the makeup of the genetic pool, and we can all agree that today's genetic pool is not exactly the same as the genetic pool of 10,000 years ago. As people are born and die, the genetic pool changes and the human phenotype changes as some populations persist and others die out. No amount of society and government can stop that. The question is, what kinds of changes will come about, and how beneficial or harmful will they be for humanity?

I'm not saying we should let people die either. I'm just trying to generate some discussion on what effect modern civilization is having on the inevitable process of evolution.

[beachguy in thongs]

You know that junk in the corner of your eyeball? If we were in tune with the Universe, and growing, as it is, then eventually it will contract, do we digress at that point? We used to be of a reptilian nature, at one point, I guess, because that junk in the corner of your eye used to be a second eye-lid, like Alligators have, to keep the water out.
Our web feet, why do we have them and when are they gonna go?

And when are we gonna evolve enough to use the rest of our brain and maybe meet God in the process?

Well, gotta cut this short, I have a monkey on my back.

[mrdevious]

Evolution is a constant and gradual process. It does not stop for any species. Why would one assume that we have reached the end of our evolutionary path, when our form has been evolving consistently for 4 billion years? Evolution is the constant change of the makeup of the genetic pool, and we can all agree that today's genetic pool is not exactly the same as the genetic pool of 10,000 years ago. As people are born and die, the genetic pool changes and the human phenotype changes as some populations persist and others die out. No amount of society and government can stop that. The question is, what kinds of changes will come about, and how beneficial or harmful will they be for humanity?

I'm not saying we should let people die either. I'm just trying to generate some discussion on what effect modern civilization is having on the inevitable process of evolution.

humans indeed change, but change itself is not evolution. evolution is the result of a certain area of the species having a survival advantage which makes them dominant in the gene pool. over the millions and millions of years creatures evolved because those most adept to the situation stayed alive, not because our genes recognized the need for survival. that is why we would stop after 4 billion years of evolving, because disantvantages to survival no longer mean death as they would in nature.

[Mojavpa]

I think you have to go on a case by case basis-disease wise. For example, the number of children with down syndrome might increase because more women are having kids when they're 35 or over with the help of drugs, which increases the liklihood of having a child with down syndrome.

However, many incidences of diseases that come up in close knit communities might decrease because of technology. We can choose potential mates from all corners of the earth, and more and more people are migrating from country to country. genetic variation is a good thing evolutionally speaking. It kind of "dilutes" bad genes.

[mellow mood]

our brain is still evolving, by our own will, but not our physical condition.

if u can and u want to evolve, u can reach places u would never think possible. u can seek and find new abilities of your brain. possibilities are infinite.

if u want a pretty good book that i recommend to EVERYONE in the world, its called

The Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield (not sure bout first name)

this book is about our evolution, our possibilities and sooo much more. after reading this book your are definitly a better person. its REALLY worth the 10$ u would have maybe spend in weed.

[mrdevious]

And when are we gonna evolve enough to use the rest of our brain and maybe meet God in the process?



evolution in that aspect is possible, but only if we don't allow those with inferior mental capacy to breed. until then, we'll remain slaves to televisions and spout of word-for-word phrases that our leaders use (ie. protecting your freedom).

[mrdevious]

our brain is still evolving, by our own will, but not our physical condition.

if u can and u want to evolve, u can reach places u would never think possible. u can seek and find new abilities of your brain. possibilities are infinite.

.

yep, we can personally evolve through mental developement. I really wish more of us would try to do so, rather than remain content in the same pattern of ignorance most people stay in as a security blanket.

[flamingskullballs]

i believe that we have been through this before, like, even more so in past centries...achieved technology that has now been forgotten...after society crashed we slowly went back to our most primitive instinct; the need for food...this could of happened multiple times...

too smart for our own good i believe...

we are more basic then we think...you can even see the herding instinct when driving down a highway, see no cars for miles, then see 10 at one time...

medicine goes too far sometimes...some must die for others to live, why dont people understand that???

[ADaisyChain]

I'm currently reading Food of the Gods which has to do with the evolution of conciousness through psilocybin mushrooms.

It mentions that as the population of a species increases there is less room for a mutation to be successful. That means because of how widespread we are our physical evolution is slowing down severely, possibly even coming to a halt.

Our ideas keep moving forward though, "evolving" if you could apply the word that way. And the rate at which our ideas, culture, and mind are "evolving" is increasing at a very fast rate as we become more and more dominant.

If a baby was born with two heads ((and this has happened even in humans)) and was more successful then a baby with one head, our society would still be able to halt it's continuation because we don't like two headed people.

I don't know alot about evolution as a whole, but that's what I've learned thus far from Food of the Gods. And keep in mind it's all theory. At least until I disprove the existance of god to the world in 2021.

[420ultimatesmokage]

I watched a program on the science channel a while back and it was talking about a university that did a study of mitochondrial dna which is outside of the nucleus. Mitochondrial dna is inherited from your mom and passed down threw the females. It mutates at a regular rate which you can use to calculate certain things about the population. Anyway, they found that out of everyone they studied their mitochondrial dna was suprisingly similar.

They did some calculations and concluded around 70,000 years ago, the humans were nearly killed out and left only a few thousand alive. From these few came billions of humans meaning that genetic variations are less because of near extinction. They call it a population bottle neck big to small to big again.
They also went on connecting that time period to a super volcano that happend around that time. Well, evolution takes amillions of years and I dont think that we will notice any change in the species for quite some time.

[mellow mood]

really wish more of us would try to do so, rather than remain content in the same pattern of ignorance most people stay in as a security blanket.

exactly what i think man

and exactly what makes this world so bad. as well as its what will make us all die

AAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHH

[ermitonto]

humans indeed change, but change itself is not evolution. evolution is the result of a certain area of the species having a survival advantage which makes them dominant in the gene pool. over the millions and millions of years creatures evolved because those most adept to the situation stayed alive, not because our genes recognized the need for survival. that is why we would stop after 4 billion years of evolving, because disantvantages to survival no longer mean death as they would in nature.
So you're saying genes no longer have any effect whatsoever on survival rates? There are some researchers who say that a very small portion of the population is naturally immune to AIDS because they lack a certain receptor. Would it be unreasonable to expect them to increase their standing in the gene pool if AIDS becomes a much more serious problem?

Also, how can we be sure that society and government won't ever bring about a program of eugenics?


I think you have to go on a case by case basis-disease wise. For example, the number of children with down syndrome might increase because more women are having kids when they're 35 or over with the help of drugs, which increases the liklihood of having a child with down syndrome.

However, many incidences of diseases that come up in close knit communities might decrease because of technology. We can choose potential mates from all corners of the earth, and more and more people are migrating from country to country. genetic variation is a good thing evolutionally speaking. It kind of "dilutes" bad genes.
Very good points.

[mrdevious]

So you're saying genes no longer have any effect whatsoever on survival rates? There are some researchers who say that a very small portion of the population is naturally immune to AIDS because they lack a certain receptor. Would it be unreasonable to expect them to increase their standing in the gene pool if AIDS becomes a much more serious problem?

Also, how can we be sure that society and government won't ever bring about a program of eugenics?


I wasn't saying that genes have no effect on evolution, I was saying that our current form of society uses medical technology, low-income housing, social assistance etc, which keeps the non-survivally-fit alive along with the survivally fit, making neither dominant in the gene pool. For those immune to aids, they will only become prominent if all those with aids are allowed to die naturally, or don't breed before death.

all I was saying is that because of our intelligence interferring with the natural process, evolution is not an innevitable thing without doubt.

[Mojavpa]

But are we overlooking a critical factor? With the rise of sanitation and modern medicine, it has been possible to save the majority of people who, in the wild, would otherwise have died from poor genes. People with debilitating disabilities and diseases of a genetic origin are often now able to stay alive and reproduce. Certain symptoms of these conditions that might otherwise repel potential mates are also minimized, and they may even appear to be perfectly normal. So, if all these people with poor genes are allowed to live in safety with the help of modern civilization, might we actually be slowing down the process of evolution?



No, most people in third world countries die from preventable causes, not genetic disorders. They die from famine, unclean drinking water, war, accidents, infections, etc before they have a chance to die from things like stroke, obesity, diabetes, cancer, cigarettes, etc. which we suffer from in the western world, primarily because we in the western world make poor food choices and we are incredibly sedentary. Our ancestors were incredibly active for tens of thousands of years and ate simple food, and our genes cant magically adjust to our new lifestyle.

[flamingskullballs]

i see it as more of getting worse...were not evolving, were devolving...we are killing our own species at a faster rate now than during any war, and we dont even mean to...

insanity...

[Edgar]

All speculation aside, there is something known as the the Flynn effect, which is the rise of IQ test scores each year. On average IQs are going up 3 points per decade.

[ermitonto]

That might be an environmental effect. Nature versus nurture, you know. Which one is driving the IQ points up? We don't know.

Maybe really stupid people just don't get laid. Maybe educational and parenting techniques are getting better. Maybe both.

[Edgar]

Yeah, nobody knows for sure why the scores are going up.

[Edgar]

Although 1 thing is certain, they are going up everywhere that iq tests are given.

[beachguy in thongs]

we don't allow those with inferior mental capacy to breed. until then, we'll remain slaves to televisions and spout of word-for-word phrases that our leaders use (ie. protecting your freedom).

Well, I don't really look at them as inferior unless they have tails. TV is a fad. Stupidness skips generations, Intelligence never does.

[Edgar]

Ermitonto, you might want to check this out.

http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedonist.htm

[ermitonto]

I for one am very wary about the prospects of combining machine and man. Sounds like the first step towards the replacement of the latter by the former. Maybe it's inevitable, but I hope not. I like humans.

[Edgar]

You should read it all.

It's more about improving the living conditions of all life.

[ermitonto]

I wish I could take all the time to read that, but I'm having trouble just keeping up with the necessary readings for my classes. And my recreational reading list is building up as I haven't had any time to get to that either. *sigh* So much information, and only one lifetime to absorb it.