Troops in Iraq

[Smokey McPot]

Who here thinks the US should pull the troops out of Iraq and let those crazy bastards do what ever they want to do?

[Anonymous]

pull them out they dont want us there why should we be there

[Smokey McPot]

I believe we should stay in and kill every bad guy so no more attacks occur. To many people have died to give up. Everybody should be smart enough to realize that the middle easterners will not give up. they are going to attack in the future again.

[doomfreak]

Who here thinks the US should pull the troops out of Iraq and let those crazy bastards do what ever they want to do?
i think your father should have pulled out of your mother sooner.

[Anonymous]

there will always be bad people in the world

[Smokey McPot]

there will always be bad people in the world

You obviously dont know much about their culture. They are taught to hate us. There is no way they will one day like us americans. They are going to attack us. they have kept quiet to long so i believe somthing will happen in 10 years when everyone forgets about 9/11 (most have).

[Smokey McPot]

these bad people also have alota money to do alota damage.

[Omun]

Doomfreak your a mean S.O.B :mad:

[doomfreak]

Doomfreak your a mean S.O.B :mad:
i give no quarter to bigots such as the author of this thread.

[Omun]

You should seriously consider watching the movie Bambi, because you obviously have never heard this... "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". Come on man I learned that in preschool. Oh, but my SOB comment was called for.

[ermitonto]

The Iraqis don't need our help running their country any more than we need their help running ours. Especially considering the US government's tendency to support and fund brutal dictators (http://a4a.mahost.org/cia.html), such as the following:
* Tiburcio Andino (Honduras)
* Carlos Castillo Armas (Guatemala)
* Fulgencio Batista (Cuba)
* Ngo Dinh Diem (Vietnam)
* "Papa Doc" Duvalier (Haiti)
* King Fahd (Saudi Arabia)
* King Hussein (Jordan)
* Saddam Hussein (Iraq)
* Chiang Kai-shek (China)
* Ferdinand Marcos (Phillippines)
* Joseph Désiré Mobutu (Congo/Zaire)
* Manuel Noriega (Panama)
* Mohammed Riza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran)
* The Somoza Family (Nicaragua)
* Suharto (Indonesia)
* Rafael Trujillo Molina (Dominican Republic)
* Salvador Allende (Chile)

[Psycho4Bud]

The Iraqis don't need our help running their country
WE are not running their country number one. Number two, the Iraqi government has the choice on when we depart. You would want to see this country handed over to extremists or Al-Quada?

[a. beezy]

I like Nietzsche's view that Power is Good and Weakness is Evil. If the Iraqis don't want us there, they should make us leave. Weakness is wrong, not Iraqis or Muslims or terrorists or anything else.

[ermitonto]

If the troops aren't helping them run their country then what the hell are all they doing over there? Twiddling their thumbs? It's obvious they're holding and controlling occupied territory.

We should leave Iraq to the Iraqis. There's no reason to suspect Al Qaeda could wrestle control of that country any more than they could in any other country of the region. No reason to suspect that they could take control of an Iraqi-run Iraq but not whatever American-backed dictatorship ends up ruling the country. And as far as the "extremists" go, I would like to know what you define as "extremist". Are you using it in the corporate-media buzzword (http://a4a.mahost.org/buzz.html) sense?

Extremist: This has come to mean "anyone who deviates from the edicts of Washington." Can be applied to foreign or domestic opponents. They are always "extremists." Also known as MILITANTS.
Because if that is the case, then I don't see any other option for Iraq than extremism. Extremism seems to imply anything that strays significantly from the accepted ruling ideology that supports the status quo. Since the status quo is a complete failure, then extremism is necessary to correct the situation. But I rather dislike the term, since it is an umbrella term for a whole slew of ideas which really have little to do with each other. For example, it encompasses both anarchists and Muslim religious fanatics who want nothing short of total world domination, but not the Christian religious fanatics who are already in the process of world domination.

[doomfreak]

You should seriously consider watching the movie Bambi, because you obviously have never heard this... "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". Come on man I learned that in preschool. Oh, but my SOB comment was called for.


um, you're a cornball

[Phresher than it Got]

i think your father should have pulled out of your mother sooner.


ZING!!!!!!!

seriously, all this shit about they are taught to hate us, how the fuck do you know that, these people dont give a fuck about us, they just tryin to live day by day, its the poeple high up, with tones of time on there hands, people who actually go to the middle east say radicalsim and extremeism is pretty unpopular, not the average workingman's hobby
and you think that all the middle east is made up of madmen with lots of power? is that why they beg for food and live in mud huts and the rubble we left in iraq? we all know the whole Operation Freedom shit is complete and total b.s., if you honestly believe that bush has the iraqi peoples intrests at heart need to lay off the copious amounts of meth and lsd they are doin,
you can discredit all the usuall theories about oil and what not all you want, you just cant face the fact that another conservative is fucking up, and fucking up terribly
we are oppressin these people in the worst possible ways, we need to stop wastin time shootin down poeple because they are brown and angry, and use the troops to clean up new orleans, not just shoot at looters either, we got some pretty serious shit goin on in the south, if they dont get help soon, shit is gonna go down

[daZenfmeister]

I believe we should stay in and kill every bad guy so no more attacks occur. To many people have died to give up. Everybody should be smart enough to realize that the middle easterners will not give up. they are going to attack in the future again.


Classic misinformed/underinformed american, first of all we arent over there to "kill all the bad guys". Also not every middle easterner is a terrorist, idiot.

God it pisses me off when I hear little 9 and 10 year olds talk about how there wish they could be over there killing iraqi's its just fucking sick. First of all not too many Terrorists are even iraqi alot of them come from out good (oil producing) friends, the Saudi's. This was on terror is bullshit. Why havn't we attacked all the other terror habouring nations? Because this isnt a war on terror.

[daZenfmeister]

WE are not running their country number one. Number two, the Iraqi government has the choice on when we depart. You would want to see this country handed over to extremists or Al-Quada?

WTF ARE YOU ON? Yeah okay think about it as if you were an Iraqi official, how many people want to kill me: not most average citizens, but a very large handfull of EXTREMESTS. So why the bloody hell would I want to get rid of my only good line of defense (US Military)??? You think the Iraqi police are gonna be able to fucking control all the shit that WE have started over there. Think again.

[ermitonto]

Because this isnt a war on terror.
How is a war on terror even possible? It's like declaring a war on sadness or a war on anger. You can't just wipe out an emotion!

[mike jones]

You think the Iraqi police are gonna be able to fucking control all the shit that WE have started over there. Think again.

Bingo.

[NowhereMan]

I like Nietzsche's view that Power is Good and Weakness is Evil. If the Iraqis don't want us there, they should make us leave. Weakness is wrong, not Iraqis or Muslims or terrorists or anything else.
so anyone stronger can just do what they want to the weaker

not cool

as far as im concerned we helped saddam back then
and we took him out ,
job done,bring em home
fuck thier civil disobedience problems
bring our troops home

[Az.]

so anyone stronger can just do what they want to the weaker

not cool

as far as im concerned we helped saddam back then
and we took him out ,
job done,bring em home
fuck thier civil disobedience problems
bring our troops home

I agree

[ermitonto]

I like Nietzsche's view that Power is Good and Weakness is Evil. If the Iraqis don't want us there, they should make us leave. Weakness is wrong, not Iraqis or Muslims or terrorists or anything else.
According to that logic, the Holocaust was good because the Nazis were in power at the time. And the slave trade must have been completely justified too, because, hey, those Africans weren't taking over the white men with guns when they were chained up on those boats. And I guess Mussolini must have beed perfectly right in using Ethiopians as target practice for his troops, since after all, the Italian Army had control of Ethiopia and the Ethiopians weren't kicking them out with their bows and arrows. And the Native Americans are clearly to blame for the fact that they're nearly extinct as a result of history's most successful genocide, because they weren't powerful enough to stop the diseases and bullets they were being delivered. Way to go, Machiavelli.

[Smokey McPot]

WE are not running their country number one. Number two, the Iraqi government has the choice on when we depart. You would want to see this country handed over to extremists or Al-Quada?


right on. I dont give a fuck about those people over there. all i am saying is if we dont guide them they will jut turn into some terrorist ruled country and attack the US.

I dont think Bush is an awesome president. I think he fucks up alot but we do need to make sure those crazy bastard terrorists dont attack us.

[Mojavpa]

We should leave immediately, or at least began a gradual withdrawal. People dont realize that our military presence there is giving fuel to the insurgency.

[daZenfmeister]

Wow you'd think that a website about POT would have more pacifists. Times have really changed.

[Torog]

Who here thinks the US should pull the troops out of Iraq and let those crazy bastards do what ever they want to do?
Howdy Smokey,

I voted no..I wish that we could trust that the middle-east would git more democratic on it's own..but we can't. Also,Israel is our ally,and we will not abandon them to the jihadists,who wish that Israel would be destroyed and every Jew murdered. If we abandoned Israel,then they would be forced to use every weapon in their arsenal,to survive..given that the Israeli's posses every NBC weapon that ya can think of..it could spark WW3.

You must never forget--that the arab world will always seek the complete and total destruction of Israel,as well as the murder of every Jew. It is a goal that they will never give up on,as long as Islam and the arab world, continues to demand Israel's destruction.

Have a good one ....

[BrownFloyd]

Hi,

My first time posting here.

I have been visiting this website for a couple of days now, and the forum here is not so bad. After reading serval threads on different topics including this one, I was quite surprised by many comments wich seemed a bit ignorant (no offense to anyone), but then I realized that there are probably many teens on this site, and it is normal to witness some comments from teens who are simply uninformed. Im not too old myself (21).

I don't intend to come here accusing anyone or to flame, I would just like to give an opinion from a Canadian living in Quebec, wich would give you guys an unbiased opinion on the events in the world today.

I think we are currently in World War 3. The war going on right now is affecting the entire world. This war wich is called "War on terrorism" has 3 major role players. Each of them are EVIL. None of them are good or fighting for a good cause, but rather in it's own intrest. Those 3 major role players are the USA, Israel and the Terrorist. (Now keep in mind, when I say USA, I dont mean Americans, but rather the Bush Administration. When I say Isreal, again the leaders of the country not Isrealis or Jews... And when I say Terrorists I dont mean all Arabs or Middle Easterns.)

What ever opinions you have on middle easterns or arabs, you can feel that there is alot of hate torwards the U.S.A. Isn't that why 9/11 happend, because of hate ? So why do they hate the U.S so much.

The USA are the cause for this bloody mess. The hate they get is because of theire Bullying the world speically in the arab world. Because they are hungry capitalists who exploit them for theire oil. Because of unjustified support torwards Isreal who is a threat to the middle east. Those are the exact reasons of why the USA are getting so much hate from the Arab world and also the rest of the world. Don't buy into they hate just because we are americans or because they hate the lifestyle in America.

Isreal. I don't want to get into this topic because it is quite complexe. But the whole world knows this, Isreal is occupying a territory. This is approved by the rest of the world excpet for Isrealis and some Americans.

The Terrorists. In the screwed up mind of theirs, they fail to realize that they are killing innocent civilians. They are not helping theire cause, and making things worst.

So who benefits form this war ?

The Bush administration because they are making $$$$$$$ off of this war, at the cost of innocent people, American soldiers and at the same time putting the whole country into debt.

Isreal because by having the Americans invade Iraq, they have one of theire biggest rivals being weakened. If the USA were to attack Iran, they would also be the ones who would benefit. The USA supports Isreal having nukes but not Iran, while it is clear to the rest of the world that Isreal is the biggest threat in the Middle east not Iran.

Terrorist leaders. Terrorists who attacked on 9/11 were Saoudis not Iraqis. The USA ivaded Iraq using the pretext " Saddam has WMD ". When proved wrong, the administration changed that to " Free the Iraqi people". Its all propaganda, and you are falling for it. They use these pretexts just to get more money off of oil. Now by attacking Iraq, it created Terrorists there. The Terrorists leaders benefited from alot of recruting because of the war.

There is no way out of this mess, it will get nasty and dirty. People are going to die and this will last for decades. Decades of bloodshed around the globe.

Propaganda is the most powerful tool in the world today. Alot of you are victims of it.

Future is not bright my friends, good luck !

[shiva]

jeeze,ya know as an American,and a liberal my vote has to go to aarrrrrggggg!!!!!!Decisions,decisions.Look,there were no weapons of mass destruction,(I have posted this before)There HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CAMPAIGN TO OVERTHROW SADAM HUSSAIN SINCE the first Bush has been in office.Now =, even as a liberal I have to ssay it is to late to pull out now.Now do I like that ?NO,do I like the Idea that there are kids,KIDS over there getting blown up because of weapons of mass destruction,no.But I had only one vote,it was cast,and Kerry lost,not by a landslide!Without getting too deep and wanting to tear up the computer,I will say this about any american who supports this bullshit,since it is an all volenteer army,then all those who support the war, go to iraq and take someone's place who want's to come home.All those who do not support the war,well pray for those who do.F.Y.I. anyone who can find me a politician who has a son or daughter over there i'd like to know.

[Torog]

Hi,

My first time posting here.

I have been visiting this website for a couple of days now, and the forum here is not so bad. After reading serval threads on different topics including this one, I was quite surprised by many comments wich seemed a bit ignorant (no offense to anyone), but then I realized that there are probably many teens on this site, and it is normal to witness some comments from teens who are simply uninformed. Im not too old myself (21).

I don't intend to come here accusing anyone or to flame, I would just like to give an opinion from a Canadian living in Quebec, wich would give you guys an unbiased opinion on the events in the world today.

I think we are currently in World War 3. The war going on right now is affecting the entire world. This war wich is called "War on terrorism" has 3 major role players. Each of them are EVIL. None of them are good or fighting for a good cause, but rather in it's own intrest. Those 3 major role players are the USA, Israel and the Terrorist. (Now keep in mind, when I say USA, I dont mean Americans, but rather the Bush Administration. When I say Isreal, again the leaders of the country not Isrealis or Jews... And when I say Terrorists I dont mean all Arabs or Middle Easterns.)

What ever opinions you have on middle easterns or arabs, you can feel that there is alot of hate torwards the U.S.A. Isn't that why 9/11 happend, because of hate ? So why do they hate the U.S so much.

The USA are the cause for this bloody mess. The hate they get is because of theire Bullying the world speically in the arab world. Because they are hungry capitalists who exploit them for theire oil. Because of unjustified support torwards Isreal who is a threat to the middle east. Those are the exact reasons of why the USA are getting so much hate from the Arab world and also the rest of the world. Don't buy into they hate just because we are americans or because they hate the lifestyle in America.

Isreal. I don't want to get into this topic because it is quite complexe. But the whole world knows this, Isreal is occupying a territory. This is approved by the rest of the world excpet for Isrealis and some Americans.

The Terrorists. In the screwed up mind of theirs, they fail to realize that they are killing innocent civilians. They are not helping theire cause, and making things worst.

So who benefits form this war ?

The Bush administration because they are making $$$$$$$ off of this war, at the cost of innocent people, American soldiers and at the same time putting the whole country into debt.

Isreal because by having the Americans invade Iraq, they have one of theire biggest rivals being weakened. If the USA were to attack Iran, they would also be the ones who would benefit. The USA supports Isreal having nukes but not Iran, while it is clear to the rest of the world that Isreal is the biggest threat in the Middle east not Iran.

Terrorist leaders. Terrorists who attacked on 9/11 were Saoudis not Iraqis. The USA ivaded Iraq using the pretext " Saddam has WMD ". When proved wrong, the administration changed that to " Free the Iraqi people". Its all propaganda, and you are falling for it. They use these pretexts just to get more money off of oil. Now by attacking Iraq, it created Terrorists there. The Terrorists leaders benefited from alot of recruting because of the war.

There is no way out of this mess, it will get nasty and dirty. People are going to die and this will last for decades. Decades of bloodshed around the globe.

Propaganda is the most powerful tool in the world today. Alot of you are victims of it.

Future is not bright my friends, good luck !Howdy Brown,

America didn't cause this mess..the un-provoked attack on the Twin Towers,Pentagon and the attempt against the White House,and the subsequent murder of over 3 thousand,innocent people..is what started this 'mess'.

As for Israel,we support them and are allied with them,because they were the only democracy in the region,until we helped the Iraqi's and the Afghani's,choose democracy. You act as if a brutally oppressive,fundy islamofascist goverment,that's counter to individual rights and freedoms,is a viable and acceptable alternative..it is not. Such goverments,are no longer viable and acceptable,in the Free World..and represent both a strategic and a tactical threat,to the stability of the middle-east and the Free World. Also,Israel,has both a Biblical right to it's land's and a right to those which it won,in response to the illegal attacks against Israel,by arab goverments.

If Bush and his admin,are filling their pocket's with cash..how come there's no news reports on it ?

Do you support democracy..or islamofascism ? When you side with the terrorist's,you are choosing islamofascism. When you choose to fight against them..you are choosing freedom and democracy..for all..it's really just that simple..the terrorists and jihadists,don't offer freedom,in return for your support..they offer either death or forced conversion to Islam and the assumption of dhimmini status..slavery and second-class citizenship.

You are more than welcome,to come on down to the politics forum and discuss this issue,in greater detail.:)

Have a good one ...

[GHoSToKeR]

Excellent post, BrownFloyd! And welcome to the boards!


....the un-provoked attack on the Twin Towers....

Well, there you have it Torog... If you think it was unprovoked then I doubt you'll ever see it any other way, but think about this analargy for a second...


We're in a playground at a Primary School (Elementary School). There's a boy standing alone in the corner of the playground. In the opposite corner there are a large group of boys, obviously the 'popular' kids. One of them spots the lone child at the other side of the playground, and, because he looks different, acts different, sounds different, talks different, then the popular guy automatically dislikes him. As the week progresses this guy starts to bully the other kid incessantly. He tells him what to do, where to go, how to act, and never fears that this little kid might one day retalliate.

The bullying continues without coming to a head, but one day another child sees what is happening and doesn't like it. The next time the big, popular guy goes to strike out against his victim, the other child comes along and attacks him first. He punches and kicks him as hard as he can, though he's alot smaller and weaker than his opponent, but he does his best to inflict as much damage as he can in the only way he can. Then he runs off, and the tough guy is left cut and bruised and shocked.

Obviously he tells his friends what happened, but of course in his opinion this was an unprovoked attack. As far as he's concerned, some random kid just attacked him for absolutely no reason. Of course he'll never bother to link his attackers behaviour with his own behaviour towards his victim.

I could go on but I think you get my point. Does this scenario sound familiar?

Sound familiar?

[beachguy in thongs]

Holy shit, a tough question. We don't even let other countries help us during something like Hurricane Katrina and now we have all those people in Iraq. It's gotta be one or the other.

[Torog]

Excellent post, BrownFloyd! And welcome to the boards!



Well, there you have it Torog... If you think it was unprovoked then I doubt you'll ever see it any other way, but think about this analargy for a second...


We're in a playground at a Primary School (Elementary School). There's a boy standing alone in the corner of the playground. In the opposite corner there are a large group of boys, obviously the 'popular' kids. One of them spots the lone child at the other side of the playground, and, because he looks different, acts different, sounds different, talks different, then the popular guy automatically dislikes him. As the week progresses this guy starts to bully the other kid incessantly. He tells him what to do, where to go, how to act, and never fears that this little kid might one day retalliate.

The bullying continues without coming to a head, but one day another child sees what is happening and doesn't like it. The next time the big, popular guy goes to strike out against his victim, the other child comes along and attacks him first. He punches and kicks him as hard as he can, though he's alot smaller and weaker than his opponent, but he does his best to inflict as much damage as he can in the only way he can. Then he runs off, and the tough guy is left cut and bruised and shocked.

Obviously he tells his friends what happened, but of course in his opinion this was an unprovoked attack. As far as he's concerned, some random kid just attacked him for absolutely no reason. Of course he'll never bother to link his attackers behaviour with his own behaviour towards his victim.

I could go on but I think you get my point. Does this scenario sound familiar?

Sound familiar?
Howdy GhostToker,

Yup..I see where yer coming from..however,in the case of 9/11/01,it was the 'bullies' striking out at innocent people..the terrorists,are the bullies who want total control..they accuse the US of being bullies..because we're keeping them from forming the brutal,oppressive goverment that they desire..the terrorists didn't attack America,because they wanted to give their people freedom..they did so to git America out of their faces..and put in place,a brutal,islamofascist goverment.

Let me say this again--the terrorists seek to take away freedom..not to give freedom..they ain't fighting the US for a noble cause..they are fighting for control.

When I was in Saudi,a feller that had been there in country,for over 25 years,said that the arabs were resentful of America coming into their countries and building infrastructure and raising them up from their tribal,nomadic roots..so that they could be a part of civilization and extract their oil and sell it to the world. The Saudi's became embarrassed,that a bunch of infidels did for their country,what they should have done..and they hate us for it,he said that is just one major reason why we would be treated like crap,while in country..one of the other reasons,of course,was that we were all infidels in their eyes.

I see America,as a liberator..not a bully..the kid that attacked the bully in your story,was a liberator..not a bully. In fact..I was once the 'liberator'..when I was a kid,I attacked the bully..and became life-long friends with the kid that was being bullied. America,is taking out the bullies..and giving control over to the ones that have been bullied all of their lives..that is noble..killing over 3 thousand folks..is not noble. Because of America,over 50 million folks have been freed from the brutal bullies that have controled them all of their lives..because of America,women can now vote,participate in politics and go to school..that ain't being a bully--except to those who wish to retain brutal control.

Have a good one ....

[GHoSToKeR]

Torog, hey mate! :)

I wasn't saying that America is the bully, the liberator, or the victim. I'm simply highlighting the fact that, although you may think 9/11 was unprovoked alot of people (the sick fucks who believe it was a good thing, pardon my French) believe there was a a legitimate reason for 9/11 and that it was justified. It's true that America does get involved in other nation's business, and alot of the time are either uninvited or unwanted. I'm not justifying 9/11 or any other attacks on Americans or Brits, I just think we should expect retalliation from these people if we are attacking them (not just militarily, but atacking their cultures too).

I don't necessarily support Democracy. Like i've stated before there are alot of governmental systems which would work perfectly if it wasn't for the weakness and greed of humans. Any system of control we employ becomes corrupted and exploited, and begins to adopt other elements of other systems.... So no, I don't personally support democracy, only freedom. And if democracy is the only way toward freedom then so be it.

[Torog]

Torog, hey mate! :)

I wasn't saying that America is the bully, the liberator, or the victim. I'm simply highlighting the fact that, although you may think 9/11 was unprovoked alot of people (the sick f*cks who believe it was a good thing, pardon my French) believe there was a a legitimate reason for 9/11 and that it was justified. It's true that America does get involved in other nation's business, and alot of the time are either uninvited or unwanted. I'm not justifying 9/11 or any other attacks on Americans or Brits, I just think we should expect retalliation from these people if we are attacking them (not just militarily, but atacking their cultures too).

I don't necessarily support Democracy. Like i've stated before there are alot of governmental systems which would work perfectly if it wasn't for the weakness and greed of humans. Any system of control we employ becomes corrupted and exploited, and begins to adopt other elements of other systems.... So no, I don't personally support democracy, only freedom. And if democracy is the only way toward freedom then so be it.
Howdy GhostToker,

The 'cultures' that you speak of,advocate brutal,murderous control,individual rights are banned,as well as the rights of women. Such cultures,should not be tolerated anymore.

All you've ever known,in your short life,is socialism..so it doesn't suprise me much,when you say that you don't support democracy per se,try living in a country like Saudi,and you'll realize that I'm right about democracy and freedom. If you are a man who believes that he has the right to beat and rape his wife,or kill her for looking at another man..then arab culture,of the muslim kind..is for you. Do you also believe that honor killings and cliterectomies are part of a 'good' culture ? How about slavery and forced conversion to Islam..is that a desirable or justifiable part of any culture ? Why should the Free World,tolerate that type of culture..anymore ?

Have a good one ...

[GHoSToKeR]

Howdy GhostToker,

The 'cultures' that you speak of,advocate brutal,murderous control,individual rights are banned,as well as the rights of women. Such cultures,should not be tolerated anymore.

All you've ever known,in your short life,is socialism..so it doesn't suprise me much,when you say that you don't support democracy per se,try living in a country like Saudi,and you'll realize that I'm right about democracy and freedom. If you are a man who believes that he has the right to beat and rape his wife,or kill her for looking at another man..then arab culture,of the muslim kind..is for you. Do you also believe that honor killings and cliterectomies are part of a 'good' culture ? How about slavery and forced conversion to Islam..is that a desirable or justifiable part of any culture ? Why should the Free World,tolerate that type of culture..anymore ?

Have a good one ...
Yo,

Nope, I don't agree with any of those things. You should know I don't. However, I don't agree with alot of things that regularly happen in a democracy either... things like state sanctioned executions, the dependancy on bureaucracy, governments interfering in the personal lives of it's citizens (War on Drugs, etc)... I was just saying that nothing is perfect, not even democracy.

You should know by now that I want freedom for everybody just as much as the next guy... and like I said before, if that means supporting democracy then i'll do so. But I don't and never will believe democracy to be the Holy Grail of politics.

Peace and Poltergeists!

-GHoST-

[greenguy]

How is a war on terror even possible? It's like declaring a war on sadness or a war on anger. You can't just wipe out an emotion!


Exactly .....................this is just a farce. This is a war so G.W.B can have one under his belt.

[Zero Revolt]

Why don't I just get to the bottom line. Fuck the Iraqis. We have enough problems of our own such as hurricanes and other bad shit. But we live in america where hurricane katrina victims don't get help from their own goverment until five fucking days later but OMFG we can have food and medical supplies delivered to tsunami victims the same day it happened. Face it the whole country has gone to shit and were all gonna have to take a big bite out of it. Back on the iraqis. Do you really think that they ever had "Weapons of Mass Destruction or the means to deliver those weapons to a U.S. Target??? What are they gonna do just send some fucking towelhead out into the middle of the desert and launch a nuclear warhead off a camels back??? Bring our troops home!!! Our own people need them. What is it with america? They always put us american people last.

[BrownFloyd]

Yup..I see where yer coming from..however,in the case of 9/11/01,it was the 'bullies' striking out at innocent people..the terrorists,are the bullies who want total control..they accuse the US of being bullies..because we're keeping them from forming the brutal,oppressive goverment that they desire.

The sad part in all of this, as you mentionned is the death of innocent civillians.

If you look at the facts.

- There were no Iraqis involved in 9/11
- There were no WMD in Iraq
- The USA put the Iraqi people and the country in a situation of cahos, and the life of the average Iraqi is now worst than it was before the invasion.

Now let's stop thinking about the Iraqis, and look at the Americans.
This unjustified war has directly caused more hate torwards the USA, and has directly cause many more recruits for the terrorist leaders. So tell me how does this benefit the average American ? This war has caused the death of many american soldiers. How does this benefit the average American ? This war has put the country into a big amount of debt. How does this benefit the average American ?

The answers to all of those question is that none of those facts benefit the average american. So once again, I ask this question. Who benefits from this war ?

The answers I come up with is
1- The Bush Administration
2- Israel
3- The terrorist leaders (able to do more recruiting)

[Zero Revolt]

Wanna see what our american soldiers are facing over in Iraq? Well look no further.
http://www.thenausea.com/updates.html

Watch those and tell me how you feel.

[BUZz UK]

According to that logic, the Holocaust was good because the Nazis were in power at the time. And the slave trade must have been completely justified too, because, hey, those Africans weren't taking over the white men with guns when they were chained up on those boats. And I guess Mussolini must have beed perfectly right in using Ethiopians as target practice for his troops, since after all, the Italian Army had control of Ethiopia and the Ethiopians weren't kicking them out with their bows and arrows. And the Native Americans are clearly to blame for the fact that they're nearly extinct as a result of history's most successful genocide, because they weren't powerful enough to stop the diseases and bullets they were being delivered. Way to go, Machiavelli.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[BUZz UK]

I voted no..I wish that we could trust that the middle-east would git more democratic on it's own..but we can't. Also,Israel is our ally,and we will not abandon them to the jihadists,who wish that Israel would be destroyed and every Jew murdered. If we abandoned Israel,then they would be forced to use every weapon in their arsenal,to survive..given that the Israeli's posses every NBC weapon that ya can think of..it could spark WW3.

You must never forget--that the arab world will always seek the complete and total destruction of Israel,as well as the murder of every Jew. It is a goal that they will never give up on,as long as Islam and the arab world, continues to demand Israel's destruction.
LMAO, have you been smokin crack?! seriously, where do you get this shit from? do you sit on your rocking chair on the porch and try to think up the most ridiculous shit you can?

[Torog]

LMAO, have you been smokin crack?! seriously, where do you get this shit from? do you sit on your rocking chair on the porch and try to think up the most ridiculous shit you can?
Howdy Buzz,

I hate and despise,crack. What I say,is the truth..and is backed up by my own personal experiences in Saudi..do you have such experience ? I doubt it. My girlfriend is Jewish and she can confirm that what I say..is right. Israel,could give up all of it's land's to the arabs,and they still wouldn't be satisfied,because the real intent of the arabs,is wipe Israel off the map,and slaughter all Jews,whereever they may be found. The Samson Option,is just like the MAD option,Mutually-assured-destruction,which is probably still a part of our strategic plans of last resort. Neither the Israelis or the US,wish to leave the world in the hands of muslim jihadists or communists,as doing so,would usher in a new Dark Ages,much more terrible than the last one.

Have a good one ...

[GHoSToKeR]

Wanna see what our american soldiers are facing over in Iraq? Well look no further.
http://www.thenausea.com/updates.html

Watch those and tell me how you feel. That site is really hard to stomach. I've come across it before and never gone back until now. I like the idea of it, though;

http://www.thenausea.com/think.html
"The nausea" is a non-profit project of different individuals all over the world. This is NOT a "politically correct" web.

We do not share any particular political tendency except our rejection to violence in every way.

We believe that getting close to first degree violence will avoid any patriotic or romantic fantasy about war.

Children DO NOT have any nationality. They should not suffer. Their lives, our lives can never be replaced.

We are not against any nationality but just against people that are able to handle a weapon against another human being or making economic profit out of it.

We are against the military that turned this century into a hell killing 20 civilians for each military fallen in action (it was exactly the opposite 100 years ago).

If you feel a nausea after visiting our web we have accomplished our goal. Do not put the blame on us, we have not produced all this violence. It is better that you think twice to whom you vote or wich government you support.

[amsterdam]

thats odd,the head of Iraq said yesterday that an immediate withdraw was the dumbest idea he had ever heard.he said they all planned on a slow scaled down reduction of troops over 2 years.

we arent gonna leave anytime soon,no matter who is president.regardless of what the MSM says,we are kicking ass in Iraq,Afghanistan, and the horn of africa.

we arent gonna leave no matter what the TINY anti-war crowd has to say.and they can thank sheehan for making their movement look even more idiotic and childish than it already looked.

[Zero Revolt]

The people here who think we are going to win against them are fucking nuts man. If we kill all the insurgents in iraq then more are going to pour in from all the other surrounding countries. You can't win a war againt against an enemy that has no real home to attack.

[Zero Revolt]

For every insurgent we kill there are ten more being taught in school to hate us. This war will never end. Say if we do eliminate all the insurgents and terrorists at this moment. There are thousands of children in school who in ten years will be old enough to start this shit all over again.

[Canadabis]

Look call it a crusade and force mass conversions or just get the fuck out.
Im in Canada, I dont care personally, you still buy our oil and have your cars built here so meh.

[lemonboy]

The rage against the US is growing internationally and right here at home. Look at what the stranded Katrina victims were turned into. Anarchy after only a few days of feeling alone and forgotten by their own government. This rage is no longer contained in one or two parts of the world. It is everywhere.

Violence begets more violence. They are more than willing to die for what they believe in. We're just bringing them to that end faster.

[GHoSToKeR]

Exactly. You can't defeat an enemy that has no one signle home, no one single leader, no uniform or identifying mark. Shit, these "insurgents" as you call them are all over the world (9/11, the recent London bombings, etc...). I bet nobody even suspected those people until it was too late. Even if you nuke Iraq then like Zero Revolt said, they'll come from every country surrounding Iraq. And then what? You're going to nuke the whole Middle East? I think the rest of the world would have something to say about that, my friend.

Face it, Amdam.. You're getting nowhere over there. You might have killed a few thousand "insurgents" and you might have killed a hell of alot more civilians, but your efforts are futile. All you're doing is losing troops, getting your country into more debt and pissing alot of people off. Bush has proved his point, he started a fight, but he got beat... time to be a man and walk away.

[Torog]

Exactly. You can't defeat an enemy that has no one signle home, no one single leader, no uniform or identifying mark. Shit, these "insurgents" as you call them are all over the world (9/11, the recent London bombings, etc...). I bet nobody even suspected those people until it was too late. Even if you nuke Iraq then like Zero Revolt said, they'll come from every country surrounding Iraq. And then what? You're going to nuke the whole Middle East? I think the rest of the world would have something to say about that, my friend.

Face it, Amdam.. You're getting nowhere over there. You might have killed a few thousand "insurgents" and you might have killed a hell of alot more civilians, but your efforts are futile. All you're doing is losing troops, getting your country into more debt and pissing alot of people off. Bush has proved his point, he started a fight, but he got beat... time to be a man and walk away.
Howdy GhostToker,

I disagree,we can defeat the terrorists and we are nowhere near defeat,we are closer to victory..than defeat. Besides,who cares what the rest of the world thinks,America was the one attacked, and subsequently,we will not bury our heads in the sand and hope that terrorists and the regimes that support,train and export them..will just go away..if we allow them to continue exercising their brutal control over their peoples.

You can surrender to the enemy if you want..but as for me..I have not yet begun to fight....

Have a good one ....

[lemonboy]

I think the idea of terrorism is what needs to be defeated though. Someone already said it, but another whole generation of these people are already being bred. It seems irresponsible to continue attacking with such force knowing for a FACT that we're only trimming back the growth.

[GHoSToKeR]

Exactly, lemonboy.

Torog, you're forgetting that it's not only American cities being targetted. What about Bali, London, Madrid, and what about the Egyptian holiday resort, Sharm al-Sheikh? Not to mention terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia. But of course, those countries aren't as important, are they, so obviously you just forgot about them...

What I don't understand is this. A foreign government allows these people to be trained (as terrorists), then they're sent over and they blow up a load of innocent civilians. There's an uproar over it, you all get your panties in a twist, and vow to stop these terrorists or insurgents or whatever you decided to call them that day.

But Britian, America and every other country trains people in the same way, then those people get sent over and whoops they kill a load of civilians too. But you don't get mad about that. In fact you don't seem to give a shit, you just shrug it off and say "shit happens.. it's war, deal with it."

If you can explain the difference to me in a logical way then I swear to you Torog i'll never doubt you again. But I doubt you'll be able to...

If you actually realise that there is no difference then I think you'll finally understand why this war is pointless, why every way is pointless. Killing people to stop them killing? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

[Torog]

Exactly, lemonboy.

Torog, you're forgetting that it's not only American cities being targetted. What about Bali, London, Madrid, and what about the Egyptian holiday resort, Sharm al-Sheikh? Not to mention terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia. But of course, those countries aren't as important, are they, so obviously you just forgot about them...

What I don't understand is this. A foreign government allows these people to be trained (as terrorists), then they're sent over and they blow up a load of innocent civilians. There's an uproar over it, you all get your panties in a twist, and vow to stop these terrorists or insurgents or whatever you decided to call them that day.

But Britian, America and every other country trains people in the same way, then those people get sent over and whoops they kill a load of civilians too. But you don't get mad about that. In fact you don't seem to give a shit, you just shrug it off and say "shit happens.. it's war, deal with it."

If you can explain the difference to me in a logical way then I swear to you Torog i'll never doubt you again. But I doubt you'll be able to...

If you actually realise that there is no difference then I think you'll finally understand why this war is pointless, why every way is pointless. Killing people to stop them killing? Sounds pretty stupid to me.
Howdy GhostToker,

I didn't forget about the others that have been targetted by terrorists,I was just gittin a concept across. The Free World,is being attacked..that others have been attacked,reinforces the need for the entire Free World to defeat terrorism and the regimes that support and export it. All countries in the Free World are important.

The civilians who support the terrorists and the regimes that export them,willingly..are no better than the terrorists. Unlike the terrorists,we don't intentionally target civilians,unless they are a part of the command and control centers or logistical support. The terrorists and the terrorist regimes,love to use civilians as human shields,so that we can be accused of deliberate targetting of civilians. The big difference is,is that we offer freedom...the terrorists only offer brutality and subjugation and slavery..we are the good guys and they are the bad guys..we offer the choice of democratic reform..they desire to only retain control of a brutal dictatorship...and then impose it on the Free World. Why is it,that you are blind to what it is that terrorists want ? In order to stop the killing,do you think that the Free World should just give up and surrender ? Do you think that we should all be converted to Islam,in order to stop the killing ? The muslim jihadists,desire the state of Darfur,a world-wide islamic state..should we just give into their most cherished goal ? Should we sacrifice Israel and every Jew on the face of the planet,in order to appease the muslim jihadists ? Do you really think that will appease them ? They will come after the Christians next,then every other non-islamic religion and finally,those who don't have any religion or belief in God.

I don't think that anything I say,,will change yer mind or make a difference..but I'm holding onto the hope that it will. I would rather die fighting on my feet..than become a dhimmini,a muslim slave..that might not bother you,since you are used to living under socialism and you have not experienced life in a brutal,fundy islamic country. It bothers the heck out of me..which is why I would rather go down fighting for my freedom..than to live in eternal shame and slavery..because I did not.

Have a good one ....

[GHoSToKeR]

Torog, you'll probably never change my mind, and i'll probably never change yours. But there's no harm in trying, huh? lol :D

Refusing to launch an offensive attack on another nation (which I think every decent nation should do) is not the same as surrendering. Just because I don't believe in war doesn't mean I want us all to convert to Islam either. That makes no sense. But I do believe that, if a nation truely believes it's under threat from another nation or group of people, then it should do it's best to prevent that attack. Launching a pre-emptive strike is NOT a good way to prevent yourself being attacked. In fact it's a pretty good way to ensure that you ARE going to be attacked.

If we truely are better than them, then let them cast the first stone. We could spend all our time, money and effort making sure that stone barely grazes our cheek... but instead we spend our time, effort and money on making sure our stones are bigger than theirs. All this does is guarantee that everybody gets a bloody nose. :)

[im53rebelhipy]

man has been fighting for one thing or another since the begining of time until there can be peace with out conflict there will be no peace. until man can except man as he is there will be no peace. until the tyrants of the lands stop trying own and rule every thing there will be no PEACE!