Are these signs?

[Marko123]

I can not help but wonder if all the natural diasters, the war and terrorism are God's warning of his coming wrath.

It's like he's allowing Satan some more free reign to push the issue as to what side we are going to line up on. Are we going to curse God, think this is all a fluke or bow in reverance hoping to be saved.

Look at New Orleans. The only horseman missing is war. There is famine, pestilence and death. Is it only a matter of time before it happens on a grander scale? And, even though this is all going on, we are bomarded with ads to buy this and that. I gotta think God is getting pissed off.

[Euphoric]

what god?

[ermitonto]

There has been famine, pestilence, death and war for many thousands of years. If such disasters are a sign for God's coming wrath, then he's been putting out signs for a loooong time now and we can't go ahead and assume that NOW they mean something. I mean, just counting the amount of time that humans have been around, we've been experiencing volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, epidemics, monsoons, ice ages, floods, forest fires, etc. for hundreds of thousands of years. And before we were around, natural disasters were a hell of a lot worse. There are multiple times in the fossil record where the majority of life on earth has perished in a single disaster. At one point hundreds of thousands of square miles in what is today Siberia were covered in molten lava. Earth has been battered with asteroids and meteorites, just like the cratered Moon (but weathering and erosion gets rid of most craters on Earth). Hell, the Moon itself was probably formed when something the size of MARS (!) slammed into the Earth at an angle, ejecting huge amounts of material into orbit around the Earth and sinking into the planet's core.

We've just got to face the fact that the universe is a dangerous, violent place. Your life is often put into the hands of huge impersonal forces you cannot control, and this hurricane is just another example of that. We're lucky to have a planet which is inhabitable at all, but we can't expect it to always take care of us. The universe has no underlying plan behind it, it just is. The laws of physics, and the natural disasters that arise from them, do not care about whether you are "good" or "evil" any more than they cared about whether the dinosaurs were.

I really don't understand this whole "Satan" theory. If such a creature existed, why would it punish people like me who don't believe in God? Isn't Satan supposed to encourage rebellion against God? And is this Satan creature all-powerful like God? If the worst he was able to do is whip up a measly little hurricane, that is, recreate a weather phenomenon that shows up naturally every year anyways, the evidence is that Satan is not all-powerful. So what then are the limits to his powers? Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him? Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan? Could God demolish Satan? It seems an omnipotent being devoted to universal goodness and forgiveness would pretty much have to destroy any system of eternal punishment, so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. If God has a divine plan for everything, like most Christians like to claim, and he created everything, that means Satan influencing our decisions is just part of God's plan of creation so it would be pointless and anti-God to try to stop it. Same goes for the whole Antichrist thing. If Biblical prophecy predicts that the Antichrist will bring about the end of the world, why do so many Christians go out of their way to try to find and defeat the Antichrist? To make the Bible's prophecy not come true?

There are just too many holes in the theory, and no supporting evidence whatsoever.

[mrdevious]

every bloody person in every time of hardship throughout history is convinced they're living in the most important times in history :rolleyes:

[SpiritualExcess]

i think god's more about grace than wrath

[weirdo79]

I think god's more about fantasy then reality ;) but meh each to their own (couldnt help myself my apologies).

[ermitonto]

i think god's more about grace than wrath
Have you read the Bible? There's a lot of wrath in there. Check it out: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[ermitonto]

Here is one of my favorite examples of the "graceful" God's hateful wrath, in which he sends two bears to rip apart 42 children who have taunted a man for being bald. It comes from 2 Kings 2:23-24 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/2.html#23).

And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

[naturalmystic]

Like Ermonito stated, stuff like that has been going on worldwide for thousands of years. They aren't signs, these things are just finally affecting the U.S. instead of far off 3rd world country.

[Ousted]

There has been famine, pestilence, death and war for many thousands of years. If such disasters are a sign for God's coming wrath, then he's been putting out signs for a loooong time now and we can't go ahead and assume that NOW they mean something. I mean, just counting the amount of time that humans have been around, we've been experiencing volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, epidemics, monsoons, ice ages, floods, forest fires, etc. for hundreds of thousands of years. And before we were around, natural disasters were a hell of a lot worse. There are multiple times in the fossil record where the majority of life on earth has perished in a single disaster. At one point hundreds of thousands of square miles in what is today Siberia were covered in molten lava. Earth has been battered with asteroids and meteorites, just like the cratered Moon (but weathering and erosion gets rid of most craters on Earth). Hell, the Moon itself was probably formed when something the size of MARS (!) slammed into the Earth at an angle, ejecting huge amounts of material into orbit around the Earth and sinking into the planet's core.

We've just got to face the fact that the universe is a dangerous, violent place. Your life is often put into the hands of huge impersonal forces you cannot control, and this hurricane is just another example of that. We're lucky to have a planet which is inhabitable at all, but we can't expect it to always take care of us. The universe has no underlying plan behind it, it just is. The laws of physics, and the natural disasters that arise from them, do not care about whether you are "good" or "evil" any more than they cared about whether the dinosaurs were.

I really don't understand this whole "Satan" theory. If such a creature existed, why would it punish people like me who don't believe in God? Isn't Satan supposed to encourage rebellion against God? And is this Satan creature all-powerful like God? If the worst he was able to do is whip up a measly little hurricane, that is, recreate a weather phenomenon that shows up naturally every year anyways, the evidence is that Satan is not all-powerful. So what then are the limits to his powers? Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him? Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan? Could God demolish Satan? It seems an omnipotent being devoted to universal goodness and forgiveness would pretty much have to destroy any system of eternal punishment, so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. If God has a divine plan for everything, like most Christians like to claim, and he created everything, that means Satan influencing our decisions is just part of God's plan of creation so it would be pointless and anti-God to try to stop it. Same goes for the whole Antichrist thing. If Biblical prophecy predicts that the Antichrist will bring about the end of the world, why do so many Christians go out of their way to try to find and defeat the Antichrist? To make the Bible's prophecy not come true?

There are just too many holes in the theory, and no supporting evidence whatsoever.

Have I ever told you that I LOVE reading your posts?!! Are you a cafe member? If not you should be. :)

[GHoSToKeR]

Me too, Ousted. Ermitonto is Cannabis.com's favourite little anarchist, aren't you Ermi? **pinches cheek** Awwwww :p

[Psycho4Bud]

I can not help but wonder if all the natural diasters, the war and terrorism are God's warning of his coming wrath.

It's like he's allowing Satan some more free reign to push the issue as to what side we are going to line up on. Are we going to curse God, think this is all a fluke or bow in reverance hoping to be saved.

Look at New Orleans. The only horseman missing is war. There is famine, pestilence and death. Is it only a matter of time before it happens on a grander scale? And, even though this is all going on, we are bomarded with ads to buy this and that. I gotta think God is getting pissed off.

It all comes back to one thing. Mans quest for pussy!
Don't bite the apple God said, Don't bite the apple Adam said. Some lil' bitch snake lookin' like a dildo says bite and the whole world goes to hell in a hen basket!!!

[ermitonto]

Have I ever told you that I LOVE reading your posts?!! Are you a cafe member? If not you should be. :)
Why thank you. I should be, but unfortunately right now I'm too poor to be able to afford even the $20 yearly membership. I can't even pay the $4 I owe to the library to check out books again. Ah well, such is life...

[GHoSToKeR]

I can afford to pay the library the money I owe them, but that means also returning the 5000 overdue books i've got lying around the house somewhere. Goddam fascist libraries.

[slipknotpsycho]

i do belive it is all signs of a deteriating earth that is close to wiping out most living organisms on it's surface AGAIN, but do not believe it is "signs from god" it's simple logic really, leave your god to the unexplainable .....in the last 100 years or so not only has assembly lines and chemical plants (which produce in my own estimate 1000's of times the dangerous gasses that the earth use to recieve) but automobiles have doubled over them selves (in quantity owned by family OR miles driven per day) quite a few times and just to give you an idea of how fast that can add up. in example in numbers: (all are doubled to save myself typing) 1=2, 2=4, 4=8, 8=16...and so on (lets say every year it doubles, by what i've given in the last four years it has become 16 times more congested [THESE ARE ESTIMATES AND GIVEN FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES I HAVE NOT LOOKED UP TO CONFIRM OR DENY THE ABOVE] and assuming the same goes for all other harmful vapors/chemicals, it's bound to do a number on the earth that protects us. lets just look at one thing these things effect, the ozone. as the ozone fades away, the tempature rises, as that happens we start getting a higher sea lvl (and i know this doesn't really seem possible to some people, but unless you've studdied you just really ahve no idea how much water is packed, frozen solid in the poles) thus throwing off the weight and causing a slightly new orbit/posssibly a new axis the earth spins on by like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 of a milimeter....... (and yes no matter how small it may seem to us it really does effect the earth) eventually plates start moving, that causes volcanic actvity along with earth quakes and many other, an earth quake sets a tsunami...and because everything has shifted it effects the size of the earth quake thus chaning the size/speed of the tsunami and leaving us to see something we hardly or never see. at the same time this disruption causes new weather paterns and eventually creating a record number of hurricanes. now don't let this post fool you, this isn't coincidental, it is merely a fact we must face as a species on this earth (or any planent for that matter) that shit will change, and when it does there could be a catastrophic rebound for such a thing. eventually a meteor/comet around the size of the one that whiped out the dinosaurs will hit again, and earth will be continuly slammed with them until IT is gone, even after there are only animals (we can only assume) are left here that are not capable of expressing sorrows before the lord or prayers or redemption plee's it's the way it's worked so far and it will not change because we are here..... you are onto something when you ask if they are signs, but lose it again when you try to connect it to your god,it is just matters of fact.

[GHoSToKeR]

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/MarinaStasenko.shtml

As of 1997 there were reportedly 600,000,000 cars worldwide. A reported 204,000,000 (1/3) of those cars were in the U.S. There are estimated to be 1,200,000,000 worldwide by 2030.

Wow.

[slipknotpsycho]

that's what i'm talking about, the ammount of cars on the roads (according to this) will have doubled in 33 years. by then you can bet we'll have found newer and faster technology to produce them (which has been done for hundreds of years now, example: people got tired of writing books by hand so they invited a machine, while not as effecient by today's standards still made quite many more than was previously possible and it kept going from there) which will mean that number will jump again and again. in my own thoughts, we just have to accept the fact that we won't survive forever on this world, as before every dominant animal group (dinosaurs, cavement and so on) are virtually or completely wiped out and it starts all over again. history repeats it's self, just not as fast as all those history teachers in school try to make it seem so it makes you think you need to learn history.

[GHoSToKeR]

I completely agree. One of the main reasons I can;t buy in to all this creationism is that I can't believe the Earth was created solely for us, and that it will be destroyed because God is pissed off with us. That seems completely pointless... IF God did create the Earth and is so proud of it then why would he destroy it because he's angry at us? Surely, being omniscient, he's heard the expression "cutting your nose off to spite your face".

I completely agree with what you said, somebody someone. We'll probably be wiped off the face of the Earth at some stage in the future, and millions and millions years after that there'll be another 'dominant' species. This'll probably keep happening until the universe ends, or reaches the Gnab Gib! :p

[Euphoric]

There has been famine, pestilence, death and war for many thousands of years. If such disasters are a sign for God's coming wrath, then he's been putting out signs for a loooong time now and we can't go ahead and assume that NOW they mean something. I mean, just counting the amount of time that humans have been around, we've been experiencing volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, epidemics, monsoons, ice ages, floods, forest fires, etc. for hundreds of thousands of years. And before we were around, natural disasters were a hell of a lot worse. There are multiple times in the fossil record where the majority of life on earth has perished in a single disaster. At one point hundreds of thousands of square miles in what is today Siberia were covered in molten lava. Earth has been battered with asteroids and meteorites, just like the cratered Moon (but weathering and erosion gets rid of most craters on Earth). Hell, the Moon itself was probably formed when something the size of MARS (!) slammed into the Earth at an angle, ejecting huge amounts of material into orbit around the Earth and sinking into the planet's core.

We've just got to face the fact that the universe is a dangerous, violent place. Your life is often put into the hands of huge impersonal forces you cannot control, and this hurricane is just another example of that. We're lucky to have a planet which is inhabitable at all, but we can't expect it to always take care of us. The universe has no underlying plan behind it, it just is. The laws of physics, and the natural disasters that arise from them, do not care about whether you are "good" or "evil" any more than they cared about whether the dinosaurs were.

I really don't understand this whole "Satan" theory. If such a creature existed, why would it punish people like me who don't believe in God? Isn't Satan supposed to encourage rebellion against God? And is this Satan creature all-powerful like God? If the worst he was able to do is whip up a measly little hurricane, that is, recreate a weather phenomenon that shows up naturally every year anyways, the evidence is that Satan is not all-powerful. So what then are the limits to his powers? Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him? Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan? Could God demolish Satan? It seems an omnipotent being devoted to universal goodness and forgiveness would pretty much have to destroy any system of eternal punishment, so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. If God has a divine plan for everything, like most Christians like to claim, and he created everything, that means Satan influencing our decisions is just part of God's plan of creation so it would be pointless and anti-God to try to stop it. Same goes for the whole Antichrist thing. If Biblical prophecy predicts that the Antichrist will bring about the end of the world, why do so many Christians go out of their way to try to find and defeat the Antichrist? To make the Bible's prophecy not come true?

There are just too many holes in the theory, and no supporting evidence whatsoever.

heh yea thats a good post!!!1 :D :cool:

[Mellow Man]

I can not help but wonder if all the natural diasters, the war and terrorism are God's warning of his coming wrath.

It's like he's allowing Satan some more free reign to push the issue as to what side we are going to line up on. Are we going to curse God, think this is all a fluke or bow in reverance hoping to be saved.

Look at New Orleans. The only horseman missing is war. There is famine, pestilence and death. Is it only a matter of time before it happens on a grander scale? And, even though this is all going on, we are bomarded with ads to buy this and that. I gotta think God is getting pissed off.

Dude! it's true! all these things happening in the world are leading to one big point in man kinds history!,we are truly in the days of noah!....terrorism/of course there has always been terrorism but never on this grand scale today! it's global!.look at the weather patterns!...hot is getting cold/cold area's are getting hot!..........floods world wide at record levels,melting of icecaps,war in the middle east! the american storms.........alot of people will say get your head out of your as mellow man lol,but seriously look around people!....For those of us who choose to ignore the signs or events that are happening are truly blind! and couldn't have read the scriptures!/koran/bible/all faiths pretty much lead to this great moment in mans history! personally I believe Jesus is coming! and is now sending out the 7 angel mesage!.........call me nuts but I believe infact I believed before any of these big news breaking storys have come upon us!..................

for example: here is a huge big bibical thing unfolding before our eye's! the very land that was given to the jews through abraham are now giving up that land to the palistinian people in the name of peace!..........In the last days even the jews will give up their god given land for the sake of peace!..

I truly believe these signs are legit! not a accident or nature!,I believe the world is in hell right now!,satan gets to do his last bit of damage in these last days! were he will have power over the earth for a time! that time is now!..

did you know the earth is slowly loosing it's magnetic field! and when the huge earth qauke out to sea struck asia before Christmas with the huge sunomi....it actually rocked the earth to the point it shifted a little out of it's axis and we have lost like a few mila seconds from our time!...............

Something else to check out just for your own interest do a search on google about the EU being associated with the women who rides the beast with the 12 stars around her! alot of people think it's just conspiracy theory and stuff but check a little deeper in the issue! by the way that is how the last empire of satan is descriped in both daniel and the new testement.....

check this out after you do a little research on what the bible desripes as the last evil empire that is ruled by satan come to the world scene.....then check out the EU look at their main headquater's building in brussels germany! they have 679 seats in parliment,any the only seat that has yet been taken by a political figure is the seat number 666?????? it's true....then go further and they have a huge picture in the main room where they hold meetings with a women riding a beast with 12 stars around her!.......the building also has statues that are huge outside their building with a beast with a women sitting upon it!..........the building is also build as a modern day tower of babal.....they even made the building look unfinished as if represnting the tower of babal that was once destroyed........their currency also has bibical trends to it!...........it's crazy!................o'k lets not look at this from a christian stand point? or muslim/or any faith...just as a normal guy ....what do you see?..............I have to ask why the hell would a huge christian terriotory in the world like the EU who are intune with scripture go the root of trying to atleast look like what the bible protrays as the beast it'self.....it's almost like they are rubbing it in our face! .and the world stands by and don't notice becauae that wouldn't be the educated view from their stand point.....

but the scriptures also say that it will play out this way anyhow where things will go unoticed because the world has been bought for a price by satan! who has subdued the kings(presidents) of the world....everyone is buying into the big EU thing everyone wants in!.............just remember this as well the EU constituation failed, three major players...3 countrys voted against it,so it plugged the whole thing until next time.....but here is what is interesting about that the EU was voted agaist by the 3 countrys who helped form the EU.....interesting considing the scriptures says that there will be 3 kings that give their power to ther beast only to get plugged out of the whole deal...that happened friends keep watching to see if these three countrys loose their membership over the next little while.....I bet something on that level does happen...stay tuned

[ermitonto]

personally I believe Jesus is coming! and is now sending out the 7 angel mesage!.........call me nuts but I believe infact I believed before any of these big news breaking storys have come upon us!..................
You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/16.html#28). Jesus says:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 23:36 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/23.html#36). After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 24:34 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/24.html#34). And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/9.html#27).
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Mark 9:1 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/9.html#1).
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

[Mellow Man]

You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/16.html#28). Jesus says:

Matthew 23:36 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/23.html#36). After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/24.html#34). And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/9.html#27).
Mark 9:1 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/9.html#1).


Due not getting into this huge debate and stuff but what you just listed to me from the scriptures refere to our time! it's obviouse you don't see the truth there and perhaps may even have a shallow understanding of the scriptures....the generation the Lord speaks about is the generation that see's Isreal become it's own nation! that was in 1948! that generation shall not pass away before my second coming not the generation of the Lords day???????....it's obviouse dude you havent researched things with the scriptures and to understand the lords words and context of things are easy for a man of faith!..................I read all those site you listed they are antichrist all the way! in one of those sites they said Jesus was agaist familys lol because he said clearly I come to turn mother agaist daughter/and daughter agaist mother son agaist father and father agaist son,,,,so with that said one of those site you listed think jesus was promoting hate and disfunction lol ...see what I mean! the real meaning is once you except me into your life you will see others in a different light,and you will be rejected because of my truth and for believeing me,you will even fall from your own family because you are no longer on the same page!!!!!...........see what I mean,thoses people who take a poke at the lords word have to come to the holy spirit before they can even begin to see...........no comment my friend about the EU thing I mentioned even as a skeptic doesn't that make you wonder why??????.............you never even mentioned it in your post,infact you completely jumped right over all of it!...........

[Mellow Man]

You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/16.html#28). Jesus says:

Matthew 23:36 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/23.html#36). After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/24.html#34). And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/9.html#27).
Mark 9:1 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/9.html#1).


I also noticed that you gave all those qoutes of the scripture only in partial form not in it's complete form also left out text before and after those lines of scripture......................for example:there is a part in the scriptures that says there is no god! but a line up before that says only a fool! says ther is no god!....................anyhow read a little of this,it shows that no one exspected it to be that generation of jews!...........................this all tie's into your scripture post you already mentioned..


The Early Church Knew that the Lordâ??s Return was NOT Imminent



There is significant Biblical evidence that the early church had good reasons not to expect His imminent return. Of course, they had the same words of Jesus that we have! So anything He said that we might think refer to His imminent return could not have meant His imminent return to them! Since we know that Jesus meant what He said to them as well as to us, perhaps we should come to the same conclusion that they did!

Here are some examples.



Peter Knew that He Would Die before Jesus Returned



Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. (John 21:18-19)

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1:14)

Imagine that we had the opportunity to talk with the Apostle Peter after Jesus had died, arisen from the dead, and ascended into heaven. Remember, Peter had been very close to Jesus. He was obviously very familiar with what Jesus said in chapters 24 and 25 of the Gospel of Matthew. But, in spite of those words of Jesus, if you had asked Peter, â??Peter, do you think Jesus might return today?â?� Peter would have replied, â??No. Not today. Because He showed me by what kind of death I should glorify him, when I am old. He will not return in my lifetime.â?� (Then, I suspect, Peter would have given us the explanation of the passages that may seem to teach imminency that you will read in this paper!)



Paul Knew that He Would Go to Rome before Jesus Returned



And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. (Acts 22:21)

And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. (Acts 23:11)



If we had asked Paul before he went to Rome if he thought Jesus would return today, Paul would have said, â??No. Not today. He has showed me that I must first go to Rome to bear witness of Him.â?�



The Early Church Knew that They Must Take the Gospel to the World before Jesus Returned



But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:8)



If you had asked a Christian shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven if he or she was familiar with what Jesus had said that is recorded for us in Matthew chapters 24 and 25, they would almost certainly have said, â??Of course!â?� If you had followed that up by saying, â??Then you believe that Jesus could return today, right?â?� They would have said, â??No. Not today. He told us that we must take the gospel to the uttermost part of the earth first!â?�



Jesus Taught His Disciples Not to Expect His Imminent Return



And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. (Luke 19:11-15)



While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept... After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Matthew 25:5, 19)

These disciples believed (and hoped) that Jesus was soon going to set up His kingdom on the earth. In Luke 19, Jesus corrects them. He compares Himself to a nobleman that went into a â??far countryâ?� and gave instructions to â??occupyâ?� until he returned. He proceeds to remind them that they will have responsibilities to fulfill in terms of stewardship before He returns. In fact, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luke tells us that the very reason Jesus taught this parable was because some people â??thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.â?�

And even in Matthew 25 Jesus compares His coming to that of a bridegroom who â??tarriesâ?� and who returns â??after a long time.â?� He did not intend for them (or us) to expect an imminent return, but instead to plan on an extended time of serving Him on earth before His return.



Christians in Thessalonica Erred in Assuming the Return of Christ was Imminent



Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Some of the Thessalonian Christians had evidently become focused on the possibility that they were already far into the tribulation and that Jesus could return soon. It is reasonable for a suffering church to think that perhaps they are going through the last great tribulation. And certainly the Thessalonians were a suffering church (1 Thessalonians 2:14; 3:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6). But Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, knew that they were being premature. He wanted them to learn to â??stand fastâ?� (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and to be â??established in good words and worksâ?� (2 Thessalonians 2:17). He knew that they had work to do before the Lord returned. So he reminded them that there were some things that would occur before the Lord returned (viz., the revelation of the Antichrist and the great apostasy).

If the return of Christ were considered to be imminent, Paul would surely have reminded them that they and he would be raptured before the events described in these verses occurred.



What about References to His Coming as a â??Thief in the Night?â?�



But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matthew 24:43)

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

Pretribulationalists usually assume that the idea of Jesus coming as a â??thiefâ?� necessarily means that His coming is imminent. This is not the case. Letâ??s consider these passages one at a time.

Matthew 24:43

The verse from Matthew 24 must be taken in context. In fact, in Matthew 24 Jesus is teaching against the idea of imminency. He is reminding His disciples that before He returns, there will be the time of the great tribulation. Only one return is mentioned in Matthew 24â??a posttribulational return. In verse 21, Jesus warns, â??For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.â?� Then, in verse 29 He proceeds to relate what will happen â??Immediately after the tribulation of those days.â?� And in verse 30 He says, â??And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.â?� This is obviously a posttribulational return. And there is no mention of any return or rapture before the tribulation given in Matthew 24. (Which is interesting in and of itself, since this is the longest discussion given by Jesus of the end times.)When Jesus warns that the church should watch for His coming â??as a thiefâ?� it is in the context of being aware of the fact that His coming is near, after the events of the great tribulation! (Verse 33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.)

A close reading of Matthew 24 makes it clear that we are first to watch for the signs associated with the time of great tribulation, then expect an imminent return.



Revelation 16:15

The all important Bible interpretation principle of â??contextâ?� applies to Revelation 16:15 as well. As you read the book of Revelation from beginning to end, you find a description (with powerful symbolic imagery) of the great tribulation, followed by the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, followed by the time of Godâ??s wrath. Godâ??s wrath is described in the sounding of the trumpets, followed by a description in terms of the bowls of His wrath. Near the very end of all these things, just before the last bowl of wrath is described, He warns us that He is coming as a â??thief.â?�

Clearly, the warning is parallel to the warning of Matthew 24. Christians are to watch for the signs accompanied by the great tribulation, then be on the alert for our Lordâ??s appearing.



1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

This passage contains an interesting comment in verse four. â??But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.â?� It fits perfectly with what we have seen in Matthew 24 and Revelation 16. The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. But Christians who understand the signs the Lord has given us (related to the time of the great tribulation) can be prepared, so that they are not overtaken as a thief.

It is also important to consider very carefully the meaning of the phrase, â??The Day of the Lord.â?� The Day of the Lord is a very specific Biblical prophetic phrase with a definite meaning. The â??Day of the Lordâ?� does not begin until the after great tribulation has passed. You can study the Biblical details of that issue in my general paper on posttribulationalism. The point, of course, is that Christians who take the Lordâ??s prophecies about the end times seriously will not be surprised when the Day of the Lord comes. He has left us signs so that it is not necessary â??that that day should overtake you as a thief.â?�



2 Peter 3:10

This passage also references â??The Day of the Lord.â?� See the comments above.

It should also be clear that if even one passage that refers to Jesus â??coming as a thiefâ?� does not demand an assumption of imminency, that none of the others would necessarily demand that assumption.



Does Our Lordâ??s Command to â??Watchâ?� Require that We Accept Imminency?



Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only... Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 24:34-36, 42-44)

The same comments that explain the Matthew 24:43 reference to the â??thiefâ?� (see above) relate to these comments.

Our Lord gave us many signs to indicate the general time of His return. He delineates these in Matthew 24 and other passages. However, He warns us that the specific time (â??day and hour,â?� â??watch of the night,â?�) of His coming cannot be known.

In effect, the Lord says, â??Be alert. Watch for these things to happen. When you see them happen you can know that the My return is getting close. But you will not know the exact time of My return. So when you see these things begin to happen, be ready!â?�


You see it was talked about as a further future event rather then a present day event!............................dude open the scriptures and stay out of the antisites,what you should do if interested study the scriptures for yourself and perhaps then people on the net can't lead you to follow them.......

but personally I was kinda agnostic my whole life until the last few years,less just say I had a calling for truth!..........the bible up to that point before I truly believed with my heart was just giberish!...............

[mellow mood]

everything in this world is a sign. i think that when u reached a certain level of consciousious (fuck sorry for the spelling), well u can be pretty aware about every signs, like simply meeting someone in the street, or whatever, and then u can see the meaning of it.

i think that everything has a meaning in a certain level.

[Mellow Man]

everything in this world is a sign. i think that when u reached a certain level of consciousious (fuck sorry for the spelling), well u can be pretty aware about every signs, like simply meeting someone in the street, or whatever, and then u can see the meaning of it.

i think that everything has a meaning in a certain level.

Absolutly right!,nothing happens by Chance!,All things are in motion and run into one another........people fail to see that though....

[mrdevious]

I believe that's the theory of causality. for instance, this very thread ended up with me being elected prime minister ;)

[ermitonto]

I also noticed that you gave all those qoutes of the scripture only in partial form not in it's complete form also left out text before and after those lines of scripture......................for example:there is a part in the scriptures that says there is no god! but a line up before that says only a fool! says ther is no god!....................anyhow read a little of this,it shows that no one exspected it to be that generation of jews!...........................this all tie's into your scripture post you already mentioned..

If you didn't notice, I provided links so that people could look for themselves at the points in the Bible where these things are said. I'm not going to post whole chapters of the Bible here. If you want to read the relevant chapters and get the context yourself, I've provided you with the means to do that and don't feel obliged to go any further.

If there are parts of the Bible that say that Jesus' return wasn't going to happen soon, congratulations, we've found yet another contradiction in the Bible. That does nothing to redeem the logical consistency of Biblical dogma. Jesus went out of his way in those verses I quoted to say that he was returning within the lifetimes of some of the people who stood there. I simply do not see any possible interpretation of that statement that allows for a far-off Second Coming. It's not as if I haven't looked at the context of the verse; it really is made very clear that Jesus was not speaking of a time 2000 years from then. See this essay (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%20Coming%20stuff/matthew_24_verse_by_verse.htm) for more on that topic.

If we are to watch for the signs of tribulation, it was rather foolish of God to not give us some really definite criteria for what counts as a positive sign. Every generation since the founding of Christianity has believed itself to be in the time of greatest tribulation and thus has had its thinkers which have advocated that the Second Coming is imminent. Society has always been in a state of struggle, and has always had to deal with extreme hardships, throughout all of human history. In the Christian view, God keeps sending us all these immense problems, and we're supposed to wait for immense problems to arrive as the sign of the impending End of the World. That just makes absolutely no sense to anybody with a working brain. It also sends the message that no matter what we do, our society will degenerate to a point where things are worse than they were during that time when Christian dogma ruled the world (the Dark Ages), which of course diffuses people's will to change society for the better, since Christianity teaches them that all such efforts are ultimately pointless.

[slipknotpsycho]

Every generation since the founding of Christianity has believed itself to be in the time of greatest tribulation and thus has had its thinkers which have advocated that the Second Coming is imminent.

i can't help but notice how closely this sounds to our government of today and how it uses fear to control people, but like i've said before i believe the bible was made up by man to put fear into other men, possibly for slavery, possibly for major outbreaks of crime, why exactly? i don't know. i do know this, your god is supposed to be perfect, yet there are so many flaws and contradictions throughout the bible. seems easier to believe that man made this book up (who are known for having flaws, no one human is perfect, never was never will be) than to believe your perfect god, incapable of 'screwing up' made it up

[ermitonto]

Many Christians try to rationalize their belief in the Bible by claiming that it was inspired by the word of God but written by imperfect humans. But of course, they refuse to give us Bibles where all the imperfect human material is highlighted, because they propose no way of separating the bullshit from the rest of it. I haven't seen a single Christian go through the thing and try to pick out the inconsistencies. We've had to do all of the work for them: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

[hipEstoner]

i do believe that there is something each person is meant for and once he has accomplished it he passes away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

mellow man,,,, i think ermitonto is gonna win this war of words,,,,,,,,,,

[slipknotpsycho]

then i win too cuz i'm on ermi's side, not actually hating christianity or anything...but have noticed as well the many 'flaws'.

just to further what i was saying, the bible was written by man (whether it was actually words of god or not i do not know) and the proof it was written by an imperfect creature is all thorugh it...and with that take in it's age and the times it's been revised to make it easier to understand. so, with all this...how can you use that book (that has probably been twisted and misunderstood soooooooo many times there's nothing left accurate in it) to base your belief and base your arguments? if this were in a court, your case would be thrown out loooooooong ago for your unabilty to provide evidence....cuz all you can give now is 'word of mouth'

[Kokujin X]

I really don't understand this whole "Satan" theory. If such a creature existed, why would it punish people like me who don't believe in God? Isn't Satan supposed to encourage rebellion against God? And is this Satan creature all-powerful like God? If the worst he was able to do is whip up a measly little hurricane, that is, recreate a weather phenomenon that shows up naturally every year anyways, the evidence is that Satan is not all-powerful. So what then are the limits to his powers? Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him? Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan? Could God demolish Satan? It seems an omnipotent being devoted to universal goodness and forgiveness would pretty much have to destroy any system of eternal punishment, so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. If God has a divine plan for everything, like most Christians like to claim, and he created everything, that means Satan influencing our decisions is just part of God's plan of creation so it would be pointless and anti-God to try to stop it. Same goes for the whole Antichrist thing. If Biblical prophecy predicts that the Antichrist will bring about the end of the world, why do so many Christians go out of their way to try to find and defeat the Antichrist? To make the Bible's prophecy not come true?

There are just too many holes in the theory, and no supporting evidence whatsoever. There is something you must understand about God and Satan. First off, Satan doesn't "punish" us per se. Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God. These punisments come from him because of our sinfull actions. These natural disasters are also to remind us how big the impact of sin was on mankind. The simple step of man sinning had effect on all creation. Thus, why animals have to suffer death even though they do not sin. Scientifically you must think i'm an idiot. You would say "A hurricane occures when this fount meets another and whatnot, but you must understand that God has complete control over these things. Now, as much as you probably don't want to read this, at least read it to learn something, even if you don't apply it to your life. So that you can understand these things.

As you may have learned, Satan was at once an Angle. Scripture points to there being a time before creation, in which Angles were given the choice to obey God or to disobey him. Satan and his demons were condemmened and never to enter his kingdom again, because of the fact they decided to revert. Its kind of the same for Humans. We were given an opportunity to either stick by God, or to open our eyes to sin. God forced this descision to come along, allowing Satan to tempt them in whatever way. When all was done, Adam and Eve instantly saw that they were naked and their eyes were opened to sin. But because God loved us so much, he gives us chances. An important note, Why did God even allow us to screw up so badly? Well because if he had not, and made us incapable of making descisions, then we would be drones, robots, with no free will. So giving us that free will, we were able to do what we want.

Now, answering the question about Satan wanting to "punish" an unbeliever. It is NOT in his intrest to punish us, but to guide us to temptation. Us disobeying God is what Satan wishes for. There also is no place in scripture that indicates that in Hell, they will be punished by Satan. Unlike God, Satan can only be in one place at a time so its not realistic that Satan is actually controling Hell, but part of it. He is to suffer eternal punishment as well. So, more then likely, no matter how much some people may disagree, Unbelievers in Hell will be punished by God. The lord is so righteous that he can NOT allow sin to go unexcused. Now, is one little simple lie (sin) merrit a whole eternity of spiritual death? In our day and age, its unrealistic to say it is, even I would say so. But we were created to be perfect and righteous, so in disobeying that we are cursed. Most people dont know this but to think of Heaven as a city in the clouds with spirits flying about is just unbiblical. Scripture suggests that we will be reborn much like how Jesus was. He was still able to eat and drink so realisticly, Heaven wont be much diffrent then Earth, once established. All thoes who are dead today yet saved, are "sleeping" until Heaven and Hell are actually made, with their souls in the grasp of God. Often explained as the "New earth and new heaven".

Continuing, quotes from you.

So what then are the limits to his powers?
Satans power, yes. There are limits and unlike God he can only be at one place at one time.

Could everybody in Hell gang up on him and beat the crap out of him?
hahaha, as humorous at this question is, the answer is no. Satan is not in Hell, he is working among humans to cause trouble. Besides, humans in Hell at the time of hells creation, will be in torture. How can they commune to jump Satan?

Spirits can feel pain in Hell, right? So why not Satan?
Basic misconception. "Spirits" do not go to hell. Bodies do, and yes, unbelievers will also be given a new body. Satan is to be bound in a lake of fire, and he will feel pain too. There is nothing that says Satan is exempt from this torture. In fact, Hell may be based around Satan's punishment.

Could God demolish Satan?
Yes, as he could demolish us. But he loves us, as he loves Lucifer. This may sound strange but there are a lot of things humans simply cannot comprehend.

so if Satan really does exist then God must not be able to demolish him and therefore must himself not be all-powerful. This is simply not true. God could do so but he wont. The basics of this question was answered in the last. Another thing you must realize is that its not a battle between God and Satan.

Whew, now as far as it being the end of times? I would have to say, I truly do not know. In a word, perhaps. Since the bible no where specifiys when the end of time will be there is no way of telling, other then the signs God tells us indicates rapture and tribulation. So, going by thoes I would have to say yes, most of the signs have already passed and there are few to come. Believers, you want this. It is not in our intrest to "stop the anti-christ" because he is part of the divine plan. Even so, it is impossible so any foolish believer out there attempting the impossible, I advise you quit.

Just trying to provide answers for thoes who seek them. :)

[slipknotpsycho]

Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God.
about all i can say to this is OMG. so then if god really wanted us to realize he sent us 'certain' ones wouldn't he then make it easily known which were and weren't? i can't as easily write off earthquakes as hurricanes, as they happen from deep in the center of the earth, and without very specific and high-tech equpiment are unpredictable. BUT, hurricanes are due to weather patterns. i really doubt there is much more 'sin' in one are than another...so why not just wipe out all of humankind and start over? with a whole new eve and adam and everything YOU say happened in the begining? if he is so disapointed with the 'creations' he has made that he would kill thousands, why not just start off fresh. why contine to kill hundreds, if not thousands of INNOCENT people to just to punish the 'guilty'? prime example, hundreds of god-fearing christian worshipers were killed in katrina, yet hundreds of registered sex offenders managed to escape, to come here. the natural disasters you say are due to god's wraith aren't very effective at doing what they are supposed to do. matter of fact, probably more 'repented souls' died then sinners. so which is it? is christianity not correct as we know it (meaning the bible is full of bullshit) or is your god just enjoying killing innocent people?

[slipknotpsycho]

2 notes,
1. that was a dirrect question i don't want your usualy (christains) bullshit and evasive answers, i want to know which of the TWO possible answers i gave you think is to be correct

2. "so then if god really wanted us to realize he sent us 'certain' ones wouldn't he then make it easily known which were and weren't?" really should have said: so then if god meant these as punishments wouldn't it make sense to give us sign of which ones were punishment and which weren't (by giving unexplainable circumstances or more in them)

[ermitonto]

There is something you must understand about God and Satan. First off, Satan doesn't "punish" us per se. Hurricanes and earthquakes (select ones, though I do not know which) are punishment from God. These punisments come from him because of our sinfull actions. These natural disasters are also to remind us how big the impact of sin was on mankind. The simple step of man sinning had effect on all creation. Thus, why animals have to suffer death even though they do not sin.
If only some earthquakes and hurricanes mean something, but not others, how are humans supposed to tell the difference? And why do Christians not seize upon these supposed interactions between God and the physical world to prove their faith with evidence? Couldn't they collect statistics and show us how "sin" (whatever that is, and however they measure it) was at unusually high levels before these disasters of warning? Of course, they would have to propose some way of filtering out the disasters that mean nothing. But even then, they might be able to point out some general trends that people afflicted by earthquakes and hurricanes tend to be more sinful, and that people who live in areas without many natural disasters are generally less sinful. But of course, you would have to be prepared to give up your theories once you find out the facts do not correlate with Christian dogma.


Scientifically you must think i'm an idiot.
Yep. In science, we only say something is established as a cause for something when we have a falsifiable theory with some physical evidence to back it up.

You would say "A hurricane occures when this fount meets another and whatnot, but you must understand that God has complete control over these things.
I am well aware of the supposed omnipotence of God, but I still refuse to believe that a "good" being would do evil things like kill innocent people and keep a system of eternal torture in his universe. A better defense for your point of view might be, well God can do anything, therefore he can even do evil things like these.

Global warming is the most likely culprit for the rise in hurricanes, and that's something we can actually do something about. Pointing to an imaginary God as the source is to say that we are powerless to change the cause of these hurricanes, and that is counter-productive in finding solutions to this very real problem.

This may sound strange but there are a lot of things humans simply cannot comprehend.
This is essentially what all religion boils down to. Something we can't possibly understand. When you ask too many questions, you start getting answers like "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and "we cannot possibly comprehend God". And it is true, if there were such a being as God in charge of every little action in the universe, it would have to be so immensely complex that we would have no chance with our limited brains of ever understanding what it is, how it works, why it does what it does, etc. And of course, if something is so far outside the limits of human comprehension, attempting to understand it is pointless. And pretending to know things about it that nobody could ever prove or disprove (like all religions do) is just deceptive.

[Ganj]

[font=arial]the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time. trapped in time we are until the day that we are willing to accept what god is offering, our lives into eternal happiness.
[font]

[Ganj]

the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time. trapped in time we are until the day that we are willing to accept what god is offering, our lives into eternal happiness.

[slipknotpsycho]

damn, seeing ermitonto post is like seeing my twin of the same thought capacity posting. he says the things i want to say but don't have the mind expansion to say.

[slipknotpsycho]

the devil has created a little thing we like to call, time.

in the begining of your book it says 'in the begining god created blah blah blah' begining signify's time, if satan was made later on in the book (atleast made satan) and he made time, then how was there a begining? so either this is yet another lie, or the very first sentence in the story line of your book is.

[Mellow Man]

There is no real beginning according to the scriptures! time is outside of God! for example you have both outser space and time but yet God is seprate from both! he has always been......Jesus says before the world was created we were with him! thats because we have always been also with him! there is no begining! or end! it's a paradox!.........the scriptures say in the beginning was the word! which is Christ! and in genesis is says in the beginning god made man! that would only apply to actually making humans because we were already created before the earth was in spirit!...............

The followers of Christ asked! Lord when is the end!...Jesus said" have you found the beginning? but yet you look for the end? I tell you the truth the beginning is where the end is too!...............we have always been with Christ from day #1.............

[GHoSToKeR]

I reckon when it's really the time of Armaggedon, God will send us a pamphlet or something.

[beachguy in thongs]

There is no real beginning according to the scriptures! time is outside of God! for example you have both outser space and time but yet God is seprate from both! he has always been......Jesus says before the world was created we were with him! thats because we have always been also with him! there is no begining! or end! it's a paradox!.........the scriptures say in the beginning was the word! which is Christ! and in genesis is says in the beginning god made man! that would only apply to actually making humans because we were already created before the earth was in spirit!...............

The followers of Christ asked! Lord when is the end!...Jesus said" have you found the beginning? but yet you look for the end? I tell you the truth the beginning is where the end is too!...............we have always been with Christ from day #1.............

That was a 'special' post. Thanks for making me good about myself, because when I read people talking like that, I say, "Wow, he quoted Christ!"

(That last sentence was torn between two ideas flying out of my head at the same time.)

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

what these natural disasters are a sign of, is that we are fucking up our environment with all this pollution causing sever erosion which is fucking with the earth. the erosion is probably responsible for the abnormal change in weather patterns not just the regular cyclical weather occurrences since the earth started. maybe if we stopped fucking up

also, new orleans is flooded because it was built under sea level and the drainage systems were primitive, and none of the buildings were made durable enough.

[ermitonto]

There is no real beginning according to the scriptures! time is outside of God! for example you have both outser space and time but yet God is seprate from both!
Time is outside of God? If time logically precedes God, that means there are aspects of the universe that were not created by God. If God has to follow the rules of time, he can't be all-powerful.

If God is not outer space, then where is he? He must be somewhere, and if it's not in outer space then where on our planet can we find him? The answer is, nowhere. Ever since we haven't been able to find physical evidence of "the heavens", of "spirits" and of "God", Christians have stopped believing that these things are real physical entities and have started believing they are actually in some weird transcendental parallel universe that we can't detect, which means for all practical purposes that they don't exist (since if they cannot interact with our universe in any measurable way, they must be outside the event horizon of the universe and thus we cannot possibly know anything about them).

Here you can find out all about the holes in the "parallel universe of soul stuff" theory: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/transcendental_la_la_land.htm

[Ousted]

I reckon when it's really the time of Armaggedon, God will send us a pamphlet or something.

LOL, God's thoughtful like that. "RSVP not necessary - GOD" LMAO.

[Kokujin X]

Ah, well this is more then what I expected in reply... but i'll do my best. Anyway, from what I see the question that seems to bother some of you most is the fact you say "God kills innocent people" and therefor is capable of evil things. The other thing was what... How can we tell which natural disasters are punishment and which are not? Well, let me explain it this way. (Sorry for my poor explanation before, I was trying to get all my thoughts out at once..) Anyway, Natural disasters are a combonation of 3 things.

1. Punishment
2. To show us the impact Sin had on creation
3. To get people to talk to God

First explanation
Punishment of "innocent" people does not exist. Its punishment of sinners, which we all are. We're all guilty in his eyes, because all of us have sinned. You must realize, the fact we arn't all killed this very instant is a blessing. All of us deserve to die, so whats all this mumbo jumbo I hear about God doing evil? Its that people simply look at things the wrong way.

Second explanation
Like I said before, the act of man sinning had effect on all creation (in our universe)

Third explanation
A lot of people go through their lives not thinking about God at all. You notice when something like a tornado happens, lots of people will seek God (wether it be seriously or just a passing thing) but it gets people to talk to him. He allows problems to occure in our life when we turn away from him.

Well, I'm sorry for sounding so uptight and whatnot but God isn't to be taken lightly. Please, don't be so quick to try and debunk Gods existance. Why try so passionatly to prove him wrong? I don't understand why some people don't even give it a chance... It all makes sense. The big picture that is, questions like "why doesn't God just kill us all and start over" doesn't explain why God can't exist. And yes, as I saw mentioned before, it does boil down to something we just can't understand. And think about it, if God is real then how can we expect to?

Another thing I just want to stress is that, don't just take this as another "Blind christian rant" and that I can't possibly know what i'm talking about. Please, at least treat me as a human.

[ermitonto]

Well, we humans didn't choose to all be sinners by nature, did we? No, if God created us and we are all sinners by nature, it must be God's fault for the design flaw, and thus all sinners would be really innocent.

I gave the idea of God a chance. I really did. For the first 13 or 14 years of my life I was a Christian. But I failed to find any sign of God. He failed to answer my prayers. He failed to show even the slightest sign of his existence. This, combined with the wacky tall tales and outright contradictions found in the Bible (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html) caused me to reject the Christian dogma much of my society expected me to unquestioningly accept. Believe me, this was not an easy or impulsive decision (it's hard to tell your parents you no longer believe in their deity). It involved a lot of careful thought and a long period of trying and subsequently rejecting various rationalizations for God's existence. But in the end it was apparent that Christianity had as much proof of its veracity as any other religion did, i.e. none at all.

[Mellow Man]

That was a 'special' post. Thanks for making me good about myself, because when I read people talking like that, I say, "Wow, he quoted Christ!"

(That last sentence was torn between two ideas flying out of my head at the same time.)


Well my friend I am glad it lifted your heart! .Jesus says: Do not let your heart be troubled" A day will come when I shall wipe away every tear from your eye and you shall cry nomore!..................It's true my friend before the world was created you were already born! Jesus stated clearly,I have created you before the world was! therefore you always were!..........

by the way my friend the qoute"I mentioned earlier was also followed by another statement from Jesus"Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning:that one will know the end! and will not taste death!.....what does this mean? the person looking for the end should really be looking for the beginning and the beginning is with Christ! so if you find Christ you have already found the End as well! therefore you won't taste death because you are alive in him!......................then Jesus continue's and says"Congradulations to the one who come into being before coming into being!?????..........what the Lord means here is congradulations to the one who found me in the beginning because I too will be there at the end as well! so therefore by coming into Christ is coming into spirit before actually dieing and coming into spirit...other words be in spirit even in this life!.....for your true life which we believe is the end is actually the beginning !.........from spirit to spirit with Christ!..........

[beachguy in thongs]

Thanks, MellowMan, I'll come back after and read that again and absorb more of it into my brain.

[ermitonto]

Punishment of "innocent" people does not exist. Its punishment of sinners, which we all are. We're all guilty in his eyes, because all of us have sinned. You must realize, the fact we arn't all killed this very instant is a blessing.
The insinuation that every man, woman and child has done things so horrible that they are all deserving of THE DEATH PENALTY (but God just happens to be nice enough to spare us) is so comtemptuous of humanity I don't even know how to describe it.

Perhaps my suspicions were right. Christianity, in proclaiming an imaginary being as superior to man, makes people begin to attribute all good traits of man to God's wonderful creation, and all his negative creation to his innate evilness, thus propagating a very profound hatred of humanity.

All of us deserve to die, so whats all this mumbo jumbo I hear about God doing evil? Its that people simply look at things the wrong way.
You're trying to tell me, that there's this guy in the sky, who decided one day to do a little experiment and make these little creatures with free will. But oh no, all of them are sinning! Gotta punish the sinners!

What the hell did God EXPECT?! He can't get mad at us for sinning. He should have known we would all sin. He is all-knowing, right? He created everything and has a divine plan for everything right? So he already knows everything my "free will" is going to do (what kind of free will is that anyways, if all my actions are already programmed into God's mind right now?).

Besides, it doesn't matter if I give God a chance right now. According to the Bible, I'm going to Hell anyways. Watch me guarantee myself eternal damnation:

First, I will direct you to three exerpts from the Bible. They are:
Matthew 12:31-32

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 3:29

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Luke 12:10

But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Now, all I need to do to guarantee myself eternal damnation is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Fuck the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not exist; it is a fabricated lie of the Christian dogma. There. I'm going to Hell and a million Jesuses can't save me now.

[Kokujin X]

Well, we humans didn't choose to all be sinners by nature, did we? No, if God created us and we are all sinners by nature, it must be God's fault for the design flaw, and thus all sinners would be really innocent.

I gave the idea of God a chance. I really did. For the first 13 or 14 years of my life I was a Christian. But I failed to find any sign of God. He failed to answer my prayers. He failed to show even the slightest sign of his existence. This, combined with the wacky tall tales and outright contradictions found in the Bible (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html) caused me to reject the Christian dogma much of my society expected me to unquestioningly accept. Believe me, this was not an easy or impulsive decision (it's hard to tell your parents you no longer believe in their deity). It involved a lot of careful thought and a long period of trying and subsequently rejecting various rationalizations for God's existence. But in the end it was apparent that Christianity had as much proof of its veracity as any other religion did, i.e. none at all. Once again, read what I wrote before.

"Why did God even allow us to screw up so badly? Well because if he had not, and made us incapable of making descisions, then we would be drones, robots, with no free will. So giving us that free will, we were able to do what we want."

Were we damned to fall in sin to begin with? Perhaps, surly God knew what we would choose. Its possible (which I can't with 100% surness) that God created us in this physical world so that we can by choice, overcome sin and be reborn into the perfect human later. (In the new Heaven and Earth)

It's unfortunate that this list of "contradictions" convinced you to quit. Most of them are just commonly misunderstood (ie: Why so many people find it necessary to go to Church) Either you were unlucky enough to grow up christians who cannot answer questions, or you simply did not care to try anymore. God works in diffrent ways and I know that you have been told that before. But, the bible also does explain that not everyone could be saved (which would seem like another "contradiction") because how a person can truly believe in him, the same goes for the opposite. Absolutly despise him, or rather the christians which they can see. This is our choice, it's not like its impossible for everyone to be saved but it is pretty much impossible by works of man at this point.

[Kokujin X]

The insinuation that every man, woman and child has done things so horrible that they are all deserving of THE DEATH PENALTY (but God just happens to be nice enough to spare us) is so comtemptuous of humanity I don't even know how to describe it.

Perhaps my suspicions were right. Christianity, in proclaiming an imaginary being as superior to man, makes people begin to attribute all good traits of man to God's wonderful creation, and all his negative creation to his innate evilness, thus propagating a very profound hatred of humanity.

You're trying to tell me, that there's this guy in the sky, who decided one day to do a little experiment and make these little creatures with free will. But oh no, all of them are sinning! Gotta punish the sinners!

What the hell did God EXPECT?! He can't get mad at us for sinning. He should have known we would all sin. He is all-knowing, right? He created everything and has a divine plan for everything right? So he already knows everything my "free will" is going to do (what kind of free will is that anyways, if all my actions are already programmed into God's mind right now?).

Besides, it doesn't matter if I give God a chance right now. According to the Bible, I'm going to Hell anyways. Watch me guarantee myself eternal damnation:

First, I will direct you to three exerpts from the Bible. They are:
Matthew 12:31-32

Mark 3:29

Luke 12:10

Now, all I need to do to guarantee myself eternal damnation is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Fuck the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not exist; it is a fabricated lie of the Christian dogma. There. I'm going to Hell and a million Jesuses can't save me now.

YES! We are deserving of this death penalty, but thoes who believe in him do not truly die. I don't know what you can't grasp about this but its really not that hard. We were created to be perfect, and since we are not (by our choice) we need to be saved.

What did God expect? Exactually what happend, and if you paid any attention you would have realized that our ultimate goal is to be in the perfect new Heaven and Earth. Sinless, the way we should have chose in the beginning. Your actions arn't "programmed" into God's head, but he does know what you will do and how you will live your life. Predestination is better explained by a wise man I know, but I can do my best.

And again, I cannot tell you how many time this one is misundestood. No, your not "damned to go to Hell" as of now because of your blasphemes, every sin is forgivable. This is almost comparable to the 10 commandments. Do christians have to obey the 10 commandments? Of course not. It is a good scource of guidelines but invalid at this point in time. Much like the "Unforgivable sin". He gave commands like these to a certain group of people, and even to them today this rule does not apply. Ever since Jesus died for our sins, we are only expected to follow 2 rules.

â??Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandmentsâ?� (Matt 22:37-40). â??This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensomeâ?� (1 John 5:3).

So in retrospect, all we have to do is follow these commands. I can agree aswell, they arn't burdensome.

[beachguy in thongs]

Who is to say what a 'sin' is? The man himself, of course, no one else.
I bet sin in His eyes is perpetual, and I think he's come to terms with it.

People say, "What would Jesus do?"

But, "What would God do?" If you were God, you'd smoke weed.

[ermitonto]

Once again, read what I wrote before.

"Why did God even allow us to screw up so badly? Well because if he had not, and made us incapable of making descisions, then we would be drones, robots, with no free will. So giving us that free will, we were able to do what we want."
And yet, if God knows all my actions before I ever do them, how is it that I'm not a drone or a robot? How can free will possibly exist? It's one of the endless contradictions in the Bible.


Were we damned to fall in sin to begin with? Perhaps, surly God knew what we would choose.
Perhaps? If God knew, then the answer is YES. Not perhaps. God MADE us sinners. He fucked up his model.

Its possible (which I can't with 100% surness) that God created us in this physical world so that we can by choice, overcome sin and be reborn into the perfect human later. (In the new Heaven and Earth)
Then why doesn't he clearly outline what sin is and what sin isn't? Why only provide it in an old book with wacky stories of witches, demons, ghosts, talking animals, pregnant virgins, and a God who doesn't care about all the slavery going on but hates anybody who is gay (...something they don't even have any control over, anyways. What a caring God, punishing people for the way they're born :rolleyes: ).


It's unfortunate that this list of "contradictions" convinced you to quit.
It's unfortunate you don't see the glaring errors in there, and that you must find a rationalization for each and every one because you believe so fervently that the book must be true, throwing logic out the window. The book was so haphazardly thrown together it's funny. Sorry, but the editors of the Bible weren't able to comb out all their fuck-ups. Please, do tell me how the following verses could possibly be reconciled into something that is logically consistent:

Acts 10:36: "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I [Jesus] am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Joshua 7:1: "For Achan, the son of Carmi ... took of the accursed thing."
Just 23 verses later we find...Joshua 7:24: "And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah..."

Exodus 20:13: "Thou shalt not kill."
1 Samuel 15:2-3: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
What a wonderful, caring God who ORDERS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE TO COMMIT GENOCIDE! :mad: :mad: :mad: If this creature were real, he would be deserving of the worst kind of hatred.

[ermitonto]

Oh, and don't forget the overwhelming scientific evidence that Noah's Flood never happened and that the Earth is billions of years old, both of which contradict very well-known stories of the Bible. I can drag out the evidence if you want, but I'll assume you're already familiar with it.

Now, if we already know some parts of the Bible are just bullshit, how can one rationalize believing with absolute unshakable faith in the other parts? You can't just pick and choose.

[mrdevious]

I don't particularily hold a lot of faith in a doctrine that claims to know all the answers to the most complex issues of the universe, nicely wrapped up in a simplistic explanation of "and so god said let there be..."


EDIT: also in a book (the bible) that was written approx. 600 years after jesus, translated from word of mouth.

[Kokujin X]

And yet, if God knows all my actions before I ever do them, how is it that I'm not a drone or a robot? How can free will possibly exist? It's one of the endless contradictions in the Bible.

Perhaps? If God knew, then the answer is YES. Not perhaps. God MADE us sinners. He fucked up his model.

Then why doesn't he clearly outline what sin is and what sin isn't? Why only provide it in an old book with wacky stories of witches, demons, ghosts, talking animals, pregnant virgins, and a God who doesn't care about all the slavery going on but hates anybody who is gay (...something they don't even have any control over, anyways. What a caring God, punishing people for the way they're born :rolleyes: ).

It's unfortunate you don't see the glaring errors in there, and that you must find a rationalization for each and every one because you believe so fervently that the book must be true, throwing logic out the window. The book was so haphazardly thrown together it's funny. Sorry, but the editors of the Bible weren't able to comb out all their fuck-ups. Please, do tell me how the following verses could possibly be reconciled into something that is logically consistent:

Acts 10:36: "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I [Jesus] am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Joshua 7:1: "For Achan, the son of Carmi ... took of the accursed thing."
Just 23 verses later we find...Joshua 7:24: "And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah..."

Exodus 20:13: "Thou shalt not kill."
1 Samuel 15:2-3: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
What a wonderful, caring God who ORDERS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE TO COMMIT GENOCIDE! :mad: :mad: :mad: If this creature were real, he would be deserving of the worst kind of hatred.
1. Free will is how we sinned in the first place! I feel as if i'm explaining the SAME thing over, and over and over again! Does this make sense?

2. He didn't screw up anything, with our free will we choose to sin, we screwed up. He made us excellent in every way, and we were given a chance to open our eyes to sin, because if we had not the chance we would be robots. Does this not make sense?

3. He didn't clearly outline everything we should and should not do. Your sins are between you and God, no one else can decide what you did was wrong. The view that people are born homosexual, is only an excuse for people like you. It's simply not true and the bible explains that. It may say that God despises homosexuality, but not any more now then other sins aswell. They arn't born that way and even genetics tell us so. Identical twins are exactually the same, the same way a clone would be. But, one twin is normal and is hetrosexual, the other could be homosexual.... so hmm... its all sin. Its not the way we were born. Does this not make sense?

I almost can't believe you are willing to discredit the entire bible because you can't possibly imagin why death would be a good/reasonable thing. As far as Christianity being a bloody religion, it is. But it is uniquely a bloody religion. Contrary to bloodless religions, it takes sin seriously, indicating that God takes sin seriously, and gives a death penalty for it. Sin is not a small matter. It is the simple sin of pride that turned Lucifer into a demon. It was the simple sin of jealousy that caused Cain to slay Abel, etc. And in Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, they believed the deceiver over a good and loving God, choosing to rebel against His love and denying the goodness of His character. Christianity is a bloody religion because it views sin as a holy God views it...seriously. Does this not make sense?

If none of these things make sense to you then we are going to continulessly try and prove one another wrong and most likely on the same topics, over and over. Its almost pointless, but understand. I will no longer try and convince anyone that God is real, but answer questions to thoes who want to know. Another thing is that read what I have to say in full. If you read what I had to say then there should be no need for the same questions being asked. Honestly, I don't know why this is so hard. Look at it in these terms, if i'm wrong, what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong, what happens? You missing the only opprotunity to live for eternity (which is a good thing) simply because you decided to deny God. Its an easy choice if you ask me...

[WalkaWalka]

I think the church is just another control mechanism and i don't realy care about the bible unless for some heavy reading.

[Kokujin X]

Oh, and don't forget the overwhelming scientific evidence that Noah's Flood never happened and that the Earth is billions of years old, both of which contradict very well-known stories of the Bible. I can drag out the evidence if you want, but I'll assume you're already familiar with it.

Now, if we already know some parts of the Bible are just bullshit, how can one rationalize believing with absolute unshakable faith in the other parts? You can't just pick and choose. There is no "scientific evidence" that Noah's Flood never happend. And the Earth being billions of years old? Do you think that God would overlook something like that? Let me make a small comparison. Adam was created and looked what, lets say 25. When in actuallity, he was not even a day old. The Earth is the same way. One thing you don't seem to want to give up is this "evidence" that the bible is full of bull. Its not true, either passages are misintrupritated, etc.

[ermitonto]

Okay, I see you are a Creationist too. I guess I'll end the argument here then, since I know your type never accepts logic or reason or peer-reviewed science or those other things that advance mankind's knowledge. Oh well, it was nice and surprisingly easy arguing with you while the debate lasted.

[GHoSToKeR]

"misintrupritated".

That was probably the smartest thing Kokujin X has said in this whole thread. :)

[ermitonto]

He's just imitating his Creationist brethren. Don't misunderestimate those Fundies' language skills.

[beachguy in thongs]

haha good one, ertimonto

[beachguy in thongs]

actually meant, stoker, but that's funny, ertimonto u2

[slipknotpsycho]

i'm determined to find a question you can't answer just by writing it off with some bullshit excuse. your god is all knowing, can tell the future can change the past, can create and kill. so, with that being said, how the hell does he hold a grudge against human kind becasue two of HIS creations did something he ALREADY knew was going to happen? and we're sinners by nature becasue those 10 commandments are perfectly worded so that at some point you will sin. lets take the prime example 'do not covet your neighbor's wife (or sometimes says goods). you CANNOT help what you want, it' is a want, a desire an uncontrollable emotion 'god made us' so he made us covet, he gave us that trait. also, if god gave us freewill, why does he punish us when we exercise it, freewill is the quite the biggest oxy-moron i've heard coming from your god yet, he gave us freewill, yet he DEMANDS that we worship him, and follow his other 9 bullshit rules. if someone is demanding of something, how can they give you freewill? he doesn't try to encouage, he doesn't say 'i'm the only real god out of the religions and i want you to realize this and worship me, but i will not be angry if you worship others' (which would be true freewill) he says 'worship me or suffer forever'

[slipknotpsycho]

and btw if it is due to 'misinterprutation' how is it true, truth is simply that, truth. if it is not correct then it is not truth. but since everyone seems to follow this god so blindly you refuse to ever listen to logic, i hope what i believe happens when you die (walk the earth in a spirit form for eternity) that i see you, so i can laugh at you for wasting all these years worshipping something that is not even there.

Anyway, Natural disasters are a combonation of 3 things.

1. Punishment
2. To show us the impact Sin had on creation
3. To get people to talk to God

as to this, why would a deity that is incapable of making contact to humans be throwing natural disasters around to get people to talk to him? doesn't that just seem really retarded?

i know you cannot talk to me, because i made you. but i'm going to throw death towards you so that you get the picture to try and talk to me

[GHoSToKeR]

"if god gave us freewill, why does he punish us when we exercise it"

I'd like to know the answer to that also. That seems like one of the most fundamental questions we should be asking. If God gave use free will, why does he punish us for exercising that free will? Well said, slipknot. :)

[weirdo79]

I wish and (gasp) pray that all fundies and creationists since they hate science so much would go live in caves without medicine and only clubs to hunt with (although even that could be argued scientific....). Since they reject science and demand we accept their whole book they should wholly reject science as well...

[beachguy in thongs]

"if god gave us freewill, why does he punish us when we exercise it"

If God gave use free will, why does he punish us for exercising that free will?

All I have to say is:

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill."

-N. Peart

[F L E S H]

Kokujin, you have no ability to think for yourself and look at things critically. You're a little child, afraid to look out upon the world and realize what's REALLY there. I postes this quote by Nietzsche in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here, since it's very relevant to the current debate...

"The Four Errors.
Man has been reared by his errors: first he never saw himself other than imperfectly, second he attributed to himself imaginary qualities, third he felt himself in a false order of rank with animal and nature, fourth he continually invented new tables of values and for a time took each of them to be eternal and unconditional, so that now this, now that human drive and state took first place and was, as a consequence of this evaluation, ennobled. If one deducts the effects of these four errors, one has also deducted away humanity, humaneness and 'human dignity'."

Truer words have seldom been spoken.

[slipknotpsycho]

well, obviously no one can answer my question. oh well i expected some bullshit vauge answer that completely avoided the question anyways, it's what christians are good at.

[beachguy in thongs]

Of course, they are signs. God IS what happened to us. The core of the Earth is as hot as God gets.

[slipknotpsycho]

The core of the Earth is as hot as God gets.

for some reason this just makes me picture "God" in a school girl uniform in compromising positions or something :D

[Dopenologist]

every bloody person in every time of hardship throughout history is convinced they're living in the most important times in history :rolleyes:

I very much agree with comments above.. I dont think its a sign of nothing but the human abuse of mother nature and one another.. I think a 1000 years is prolly like 1 second in god's time zone..

Wait another year to hear about death from the water that was pumped out of NewOlreans and into surrounding waterways.... Im sure someone will say this is god's way to punish those who didnt die first time around.. I think biggest victim in life is god for he is always accused of the very things he never does..

God is all powerful and all knowing; would he give you life to punish you later for the very things he knew you'd do? All these disasters are nothing but that; disaster - all disasters are man made...

[beachguy in thongs]

I took Religious Studies in college, at St. Rose, and I learned, and believe, that religion was created through language. The sky became personalized. So through this, I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve and the apple of Sin is a parable.

[F L E S H]

I took Religious Studies in college, at St. Rose, and I learned, and believe, that religion was created through language. The sky became personalized. So through this, I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve and the apple of Sin is a parable.
That's probably one of the most sensible things I've read on this thread :D

[GHoSToKeR]

Damn, man, the whole Bible is one big, long fucking parable! :D

[beachguy in thongs]

I wouldn't say that, a lot of the stuff is taken verbatim.

[beachguy in thongs]

Like, "Let there be life!"

I know a reporter who was there.

[GHoSToKeR]

haha awesome

[beachguy in thongs]

Seriously, a lot of the bible, I imagine, I've never read it, oh, well, then... I guess it's useless for me to get in this conversation. But Peter, who lived by the train tracks, said he "took a dump and it was that long!"

[Kokujin X]

Ok ok, i'm sorry I misspelled "misinterpretated" but oh well, i'm no english expert. Anyway, i'm sorry for forcing per se, my religon on you guys, I just wanted people to understand. As for science, its not like I dispise science, its just when something like "Humans evolved from monkeys" comes up, i'm just not going to accept a theory like that. You can understand that right? Its not like I don't believe in gravity or medicin. And obviously i'm not the person who should be explaining how to please God when i'm on a Cannabis forum! Please, I don't want to be looked at as a child or moron just because I want to believe in God. If no one else believes, thats ok. But I don't want to be the loser here just because I attempted to explain the bible. My advice to anyone who WANTS to know the answers to bible related questions though go to www.gotquestions.org. They have some pretty good information.

[GHoSToKeR]

You're not forcing your religion on us anymore than we're forcing our lack of religion on you. :)

[beachguy in thongs]

Kokujin X, don't be sorry for sharing your view. Don't just hate non-conformists, like...COUGH...hold on, I need a hit...(actually, the, ah, forget it long story).

But, you mentioned about speaking of pleasing God, and stuff, and how you can do that when you're at an herb-site, talking with "drug users", but we're all druggies when we sucked our mom's tit.

I'm lost as to your views of the Universe, if you've stated those, too. Try watching a Carl Sagan video to brush up. I like talking about God to whomever, wherever because it'll never end.

[Kokujin X]

Alright, well let me ask a question about the "logical" existence of Earth. Now, assuming God doesn't exist, what was it that started life? I mean, as far as we know, life in itsself is the most intricate thing to exist. From the time when no life existed, what was it that jump started life? I suppose micro organisims just appared out of no where, soley based off where Earth formed. Is that really what makes Earth diffrent from other planets? Because of the exact spot Earth so happend to form in? If the Earth were even a foot closer or further from the sun, this planet would also be uninhabitable (to all lifeforms that exist on Earth now anyways).

Even being that the Earth picked the exact right spot to form, what was it that really started it all? In the whole universe (as far as we know) there is nothing suggesting that life can even exist. All you see is rocks and gas, nothing that even seems close to life. I mean, even how life works, how everything works togather and how bacteria is even 10,000 times more intelligent then anything in space.

How am I expected to believe this? It almost seems more far-fetched then the possibility of God.

[slipknotpsycho]

well i ADMIT i cannot explain stuff, infact no one really can... all it is, is pure speculation. i do not believe howerver some magical man in the sky made the earth. either side you look on there is something unexplainable happening, it's about what side of the fence you are on. i *believe* i'm on the right side because a whole lot more about life that we know can be explained from scietific means or logical means, while as basicly everything in the book is *magical* for lack of a better word. and, well i do believe in the history of evolution, if you look at primates is it really so hard to believe we developed from them? they are one of the smartest creatures on the planet known to us, and have been around for a loooooooooooooong time (giving the time to evolve) not to mention the sheer similairities they share with us and not many other animals on this earth (if any).

[F L E S H]

Alright, well let me ask a question about the "logical" existence of Earth. Now, assuming God doesn't exist, what was it that started life? I mean, as far as we know, life in itsself is the most intricate thing to exist. From the time when no life existed, what was it that jump started life? I suppose micro organisims just appared out of no where, soley based off where Earth formed. Is that really what makes Earth diffrent from other planets? Because of the exact spot Earth so happend to form in? If the Earth were even a foot closer or further from the sun, this planet would also be uninhabitable (to all lifeforms that exist on Earth now anyways).

Even being that the Earth picked the exact right spot to form, what was it that really started it all? In the whole universe (as far as we know) there is nothing suggesting that life can even exist. All you see is rocks and gas, nothing that even seems close to life. I mean, even how life works, how everything works togather and how bacteria is even 10,000 times more intelligent then anything in space.

How am I expected to believe this? It almost seems more far-fetched then the possibility of God.
Well, except for your last sentence, you basically hit the nail on the head. Face it brother, you and me are nothing more than sentient cosmic dust.

God is a human construct which came into being because we're (humanity in general) are too scared to admit to ourselves that we are alone. But actually, there's nothing wrong with that. We don't need God anymore, we've overcome that notion, and it will catch on with the entire population of Earth sooner or later.

As for evolution, why is it such a bad thing that we evolved from apes? I don't understand that. It just proves that all living organisms share the same beginning, whether it be the worm under your shoe, the bird in the sky, or your mother. But of course, Christians would have you believe that humans are superior to all other living things, but if you take a step back and think about it, that doesn't make any sense either. We are all living, and we all share the same biological past. To me, that's beautiful, not shameful.

[Kokujin X]

I just find it strange that a group of people who are supposed to be looking for the logic in things, will just say our existance is unexplainable. If your support logic, then how do you support this? It makes no sense! I mean, look at it. The Earth is out of place in the Universe, in fact according to what we know, we shouldn't even exist! There is an infinite space where nothing even resembling life exists. I refuse to believe that life was just some extreme fluke of the universe, which shouldn't even happen (a fluke that is) if you don't have some other force in control. All signs point to a God.


God is a human construct which came into being because we're (humanity in general) are too scared to admit to ourselves that we are alone.

Man is a creation of God and theorys (such as how the Earth was formed) were made by people who simply refuse to accept a higher power. I hope you realize this statment was no more severe then yours.

[slipknotpsycho]

like i said, either way you look something that is out of the concept of explination happened, whether you believe in a being, a diety that magically created everything or whether you believe a great energy, some cosmic disruption fused millions and millions and billions of pounds of dust and water vapor into an earth. until we can travel back in the past (or find some other form of truth) neither will truley be confirmed no dis-confirmed. i'm not trying to convert any christian. i simply want every christian to actually take the time to read the bible look for the loop holes, realize how out of character god is really portrayed in the bible as to how he's talked about in everyday speech and realize there may be [less in your cases] to what you think. i do not *hate god* i just think there are much more sensible and simpler explinations then what you [christians and god believers and such] suggest.

[Kokujin X]

Yeah, I realize that God seems to do some strange things sometimes. But in my opinion, how can I really expect to understand his way? When I was little, I would wonder why my mother would do things (such as time out or whatever) but as I got older I understood (as with most kids and their parents). If God existed for all eternity, then how can I possible understand him and his ways? Its not like I overlook the inconstancies in God's behavior and whatnot and yes, I do often question it. But a lot of things that would seem vague/inconsistant or just plain out contradictions are just not being explained the right way. I have learned this after years and years of constant questioning. If theres something I don't understand right away, in most cases its because of the way i'm viewing it.

[beachguy in thongs]

Life is a by-product of the big bang. Stars formed. To me, Christians are no different than God-ians. They'll all be at the family reunion. Uh-oh, hiccups. Gotta go, I know this trick that's sure-fire, one time I had the hiccups for three days!

Sometimes I think God is playing a game with his friends.

[GHoSToKeR]

What's wrong with leaving it as "inexplicable"? Are you going to be so arrogant as to say that, in our short time of infesting this planet, we have managed to uncover all the secrets of this universe? We don't even know much about how our brain functions, about how the forces of the Earth work in harmony with eachother, why some people act how they act..... if and when we finally manage to begin exploring the outer reaches of our galaxy there are going to be even more unanswerable questions. Science is an ever-evolving entity, and every answer raises a load more questions which, in time, we discover the answers to, and so on and so forth. Modern religion sees this, and evolves with it. For every scientific discovery we find, you change your theories to suit your beliefs. You'll say "science can't prove x, therefore God exists" and when x is proven, you'll say "well science can't prove y, therefore God exists".

Don't pretend that God is the only alternative to what we don't know. The only thing God is an alternative to is logic.

[F L E S H]

What's wrong with leaving it as "inexplicable"? Are you going to be so arrogant as to say that, in our short time of infesting this planet, we have managed to uncover all the secrets of this universe? We don't even know much about how our brain functions, about how the forces of the Earth work in harmony with eachother, why some people act how they act..... if and when we finally manage to begin exploring the outer reaches of our galaxy there are going to be even more unanswerable questions. Science is an ever-evolving entity, and every answer raises a load more questions which, in time, we discover the answers to, and so on and so forth. Modern religion sees this, and evolves with it. For every scientific discovery we find, you change your theories to suit your beliefs. You'll say "science can't prove x, therefore God exists" and when x is proven, you'll say "well science can't prove y, therefore God exists".

Don't pretend that God is the only alternative to what we don't know. The only thing God is an alternative to is logic.
Excellent post, and I like that Dark Tower quote... :D

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

it takes faith to explain any origin of the earth. there are two polar extremes in faith; some people have more faith in scientific theory some people have more faith in the paranormal side of life (ie religion, spirituality). i don't think that everyone comprehends or can put faith into the same thing, otherwise we wouldn't have so many faith-based wars.

[GHoSToKeR]

Excellent post, and I like that Dark Tower quote... :D
Thanks man! I could go even further and say "thankee-sai" or whatever the fuck, but I think that would be too far.. :p

[Kokujin X]

What's wrong with leaving it as "inexplicable"? Are you going to be so arrogant as to say that, in our short time of infesting this planet, we have managed to uncover all the secrets of this universe? We don't even know much about how our brain functions, about how the forces of the Earth work in harmony with eachother, why some people act how they act..... if and when we finally manage to begin exploring the outer reaches of our galaxy there are going to be even more unanswerable questions. Science is an ever-evolving entity, and every answer raises a load more questions which, in time, we discover the answers to, and so on and so forth. Modern religion sees this, and evolves with it. For every scientific discovery we find, you change your theories to suit your beliefs. You'll say "science can't prove x, therefore God exists" and when x is proven, you'll say "well science can't prove y, therefore God exists".

Don't pretend that God is the only alternative to what we don't know. The only thing God is an alternative to is logic. Well, the same goes for Religion. There are "inexplicable" things in the bible (or just with the concept of God himself) that people constantly use to try and debunk it. I don't necessarily change my theories to suit my beliefs based on what science learns (especially when its something like the big bang theory) and I definatly don't have to. This is just a loop! You'll say "x just doesn't make sense!"(assume its a verse in the bible), therefore science must be right" and when x is explained in the proper manner, you'll say "well y doesn't make sense! therefore science is correct".

[mrdevious]

Well, the same goes for Religion. There are "inexplicable" things in the bible (or just with the concept of God himself) that people constantly use to try and debunk it. I don't necessarily change my theories to suit my beliefs based on what science learns (especially when its something like the big bang theory) and I definatly don't have to. This is just a loop! You'll say "x just doesn't make sense!"(assume its a verse in the bible), therefore science must be right" and when x is explained in the proper manner, you'll say "well y doesn't make sense! therefore science is correct".

and vice-versa for religion. I've heard countless arguments consisting of "... and that's why the scientific theory is flawed, proving that god must have done it!" a lack of explanation doesn't give god credit by default.

[Kokujin X]

Well, yes your right. But a lack of explanation (thinking logically) either means we just don't have the necessary means to learn the answer, or that something supernatural exists. Since we don't know the answer however, the supernatural possiblity is still at a 50% chance I would assume. Surly if it is not something supernatural, we'll find out some time. But you can't just rule out God because you doubt its true... i'm not so sure where i'm going with this, but I think the topic is getting too broad.

[beachguy in thongs]

I'm lost, but who was the scientist who formulated all the hurricanes and laid the groundwork for earthquakes?

[mrdevious]

Well, yes your right. But a lack of explanation (thinking logically) either means we just don't have the necessary means to learn the answer, or that something supernatural exists. Since we don't know the answer however, the supernatural possiblity is still at a 50% chance I would assume. Surly if it is not something supernatural, we'll find out some time. But you can't just rule out God because you doubt its true... i'm not so sure where i'm going with this, but I think the topic is getting too broad.

50% chance? I wouldn't say that. god it just a theory that gained popularity, but there's still no evidence of a supernatural being. There's no more chance of a god than the explanation that the universe is ruled by omnipitant gremlins, underwater sea people that are invisible, magical fairies etc. not knowing the answer opens the doors to infinite explanations without evidence, which makes the existence of god a 1 in infinity chance, the same as my omnipitant gremlin theory and all others.

[GHoSToKeR]

The fact of the matter is, just because someone cannot be explained scientifically DOES not mean there are supernatural forces at work. It's that simple. Why don't you get it?

[beachguy in thongs]

The fact of the matter is, just because someone cannot be explained scientifically DOES not mean there are supernatural forces at work. It's that simple. Why don't you get it?

Let's break it down:

Just because someone cannot be explained scientifically
(which is what physiologists are for)
DOES NOT
mean
there are supernatural forces at work.

So, if the first one is true, is the second one, then?

[mrdevious]

Let's break it down:

Just because someone cannot be explained scientifically
(which is what physiologists are for)
DOES NOT
mean
there are supernatural forces at work.

So, if the first one is true, is the second one, then?

1. "someone" was a typo

2. you have a very strange way of interpreting things. :p

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

I'm lost, but who was the scientist who formulated all the hurricanes and laid the groundwork for earthquakes?
some crazy fuck

[MyAntiDrugIsAmy]

50% chance? I wouldn't say that. god it just a theory that gained popularity, but there's still no evidence of a supernatural being. There's no more chance of a god than the explanation that the universe is ruled by omnipitant gremlins, underwater sea people that are invisible, magical fairies etc. not knowing the answer opens the doors to infinite explanations without evidence, which makes the existence of god a 1 in infinity chance, the same as my omnipitant gremlin theory and all others.
all those omnipitant gremlins and magical fairies are a part of supernatural if they aren't scientific. i think they were just saying that there could be a scientific explanation and there could be a supernatural explanation. and there are a lot of people who get supernatural feelings and intuition and the paranormal etc. and also a lot of scientists, and if each groups are exploring and learning more about what their faith is in, i think that will lead to the right discovery. this debating is actually kinda healthy if no one takes offense.

[GHoSToKeR]

yeah, beachguy, that was a typo, I was screwed. Leave me alone. lol

[beachguy in thongs]

Sorry, Stoker, but I wasn't the one screwing you!

[Mojavpa]

Let's break it down:

Just because someone cannot be explained scientifically
(which is what physiologists are for)
DOES NOT
mean
there are supernatural forces at work.

So, if the first one is true, is the second one, then?

Just because something cannot be explained scientifically does not necessarily mean there are supernatural forces at work. Maybe that is what Ghosttoker meant. If something can be be explained scientifically, it doesnt matter if there are supernatural forces at work because we already know the scientific explanation.

[beachguy in thongs]

Just because something cannot be explained scientifically does not necessarily mean there are supernatural forces at work. Maybe that is what Ghosttoker meant. If something can be be explained scientifically, it doesnt matter if there are supernatural forces at work because we already know the scientific explanation.

It didn't matter what Stoker meant, I was just messing with him.
I figure these debates are always gonna wind up as inconclusive, so I'll just watch.

[weirdo79]

Small point which seems to have alot of creationists panties in a bunch. We did NOT evolve FROM apes or monkeys....we share a common ancestor. Transitional Species people and Observed Speciation ;). Read up on em, Dinosaurs also never died out their called birds and lizards now.....and mammals in some parts......The only ones that did were the "big boys" .

Rant done....(although it seems to be a repetitive one as fundies never do the research...)

[seedbare]

life is just a giant mystery that will never be solved. all i know for certain is my physical body will die ,ill worry about the rest after that, if anything even exist's.

dust in the wind brother's dust in the wind.......

[Mojavpa]

Small point which seems to have alot of creationists panties in a bunch. We did NOT evolve FROM apes or monkeys....we share a common ancestor. Transitional Species people and Observed Speciation ;). Read up on em, Dinosaurs also never died out their called birds and lizards now.....and mammals in some parts......The only ones that did were the "big boys" .

Rant done....(although it seems to be a repetitive one as fundies never do the research...)


you're right, we do share a common ancestor with apes, but we actually did evolve from monkeys, because they were one of the first primates. And we evolved from fish, because millions of years ago fish and other sea creatures were the only animals that occupied the earth, before they eventually evolved to be able to live on land. And because the first land animals were reptiles and amphibians, one could say we evolved from them too. Think of it this way, reptiles and mammals share a common ancestor but that ancestor had to have been a sea dwelling creature.

[mrdevious]

I figure these debates are always gonna wind up as inconclusive

There's something we can all agree on! Now lets all go back to my place and pass around some joints. :)

[beachguy in thongs]

There's something we can all agree on! Now lets all go back to my place and pass around some joints. :)

Sure!!! Just give me $12 to cross the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Then tolls in New Jersey, then the N.Y. State Thruway, then I'm home free.

[beachguy in thongs]

I'll cover the toll for U.S. Toll Road 1.

[weirdo79]

Actually mojavpa the transitionals for hominids are not called monkeys so no, we are not evolved from monkeys.

And, you make a valid point for the fish except for some reason you only go one stage back and don't regress farther to point out the amoeba algae connection ;) . Also it doesnt HAVE to be a sea dwelling creature (the transitional for lizard/mammal) it just happens to be. One mutational difference and it might have been completely different. The lungfish is a classic Evolutionists arguement for that particular point.(so many different kinds of them too ;) ).

[beachguy in thongs]

you're right, we do share a common ancestor with apes, but we actually did evolve from monkeys, because they were one of the first primates. And we evolved from fish, because millions of years ago fish and other sea creatures were the only animals that occupied the earth, before they eventually evolved to be able to live on land. And because the first land animals were reptiles and amphibians, one could say we evolved from them too. Think of it this way, reptiles and mammals share a common ancestor but that ancestor had to have been a sea dwelling creature.

Basically, you're saying that we're all related because we come from the same single-celled organism that started life upon Earth.

[F L E S H]

Basically, you're saying that we're all related because we come from the same single-celled organism that started life upon Earth.
Right. But not only are humans all related... It comes down to this: every single living cell/organism is related if you go far enough back in time. Trees, bees, bacteria, bears, weed, flowers... and us. I think it's beautiful, don't you?

[slipknotpsycho]

going back to the original point: today on the news it was said that there isn't really a great spike in number of storms in the last few years, matter of fact it's gone up very little if at any in 30 or more years (according to what this was saying) but the power of the storms is growing increasingly stronger with huge spikes (think about this, before it's a huricane it's a tropical storm, so more and more of these storms are becoming hurricane strength than they used to, so it seems like there's more becasue tropical storms don't get as much attention)

[Mojavpa]

Basically, you're saying that we're all related because we come from the same single-celled organism that started life upon Earth.


Yes, and that the different kingdoms diverged early on from that single-celled organism, so we definately didnt evolve from, say, plants. Those cells that were able to photosynthesize evolved to become plants and algae, and those that had only mitochondria evolved to become animals.

[Mojavpa]

Actually mojavpa the transitionals for hominids are not called monkeys so no, we are not evolved from monkeys.

And, you make a valid point for the fish except for some reason you only go one stage back and don't regress farther to point out the amoeba algae connection ;) . Also it doesnt HAVE to be a sea dwelling creature (the transitional for lizard/mammal) it just happens to be. One mutational difference and it might have been completely different. The lungfish is a classic Evolutionists arguement for that particular point.(so many different kinds of them too ;) ).

Yeah, you're right about the monkeys. My bad. To my knowledge, the oldest anthropods were called Eosimias, and lived about 42 million years ago. Their fossils indicate they lived in trees and resembled monkeys, except they were smaller. Because the family hominids have an anthropoid ancestor, and the oldest primates like Eosimias were like monkeys, I think it is fair to say we evolved from a monkey-like ancestor that eventually diverged to monkeys and hominoids. Thats why I was under the impression we evolved from monkeys.

[beachguy in thongs]

Right. But not only are humans all related... It comes down to this: every single living cell/organism is related if you go far enough back in time. Trees, bees, bacteria, bears, weed, flowers... and us. I think it's beautiful, don't you?

And we ban our brothers and sisters, of the Cannibus family!

God gave weed life before man.

[beachguy in thongs]

going back to the original point: today on the news it was said that there isn't really a great spike in number of storms in the last few years, matter of fact it's gone up very little if at any in 30 or more years (according to what this was saying) but the power of the storms is growing increasingly stronger with huge spikes (think about this, before it's a huricane it's a tropical storm, so more and more of these storms are becoming hurricane strength than they used to, so it seems like there's more becasue tropical storms don't get as much attention)

Now, we are looking at Phillippe off the Westward Islands. Last year, we were only at Ivan. No one knows how next year will be, yet, but we haven't had a hurricane threat in a few years, in Virginia. In fact, one in five. I know Virginia, as a whole, isn't that susceptible to hurricanes, but the beach is. It does not good so far. Phillippe's probably gonna kick my ass, but now they've turned the track a little closer to the middle of the Atlanic Ocean.

[beachguy in thongs]

Yes, and that the different kingdoms diverged early on from that single-celled organism, so we definately didnt evolve from, say, plants. Those cells that were able to photosynthesize evolved to become plants and algae, and those that had only mitochondria evolved to become animals.

Thanks for the Biology lesson!

[Mojavpa]

Thanks for the Biology lesson!


Anytime! :)

[Ousted]

Forgive me ermitonto for replying to a post directed at you.



1. Free will is how we sinned in the first place! I feel as if i'm explaining the SAME thing over, and over and over again! Does this make sense?

It doesn't make much sense, frankly. Thats could be why you are frustrated when saying the same thing over and over, but your answers just aren't very satisfying to the inquisitive mind.


2. He didn't screw up anything, with our free will we choose to sin, we screwed up. He made us excellent in every way, and we were given a chance to open our eyes to sin, because if we had not the chance we would be robots. Does this not make sense?

So being robots is worse than eternal damnation? Sorry, but God screwed things up royally for us if he believes being a drone would be worse for us than eternal suffering because we exercised our free-will "gift."

Again, doesn't make sense.


3. He didn't clearly outline everything we should and should not do. Your sins are between you and God, no one else can decide what you did was wrong.

Nothing is clear in the bible. Thats why it can be interpreted so many ways, and manipulated so many ways to fit any given person's agenda. What makes me really puzzled is when self-proclaimed God-fearing people are so damn sure I or others are going to burn in Hell without salvation. How can anyone be so sure of anything that that book says? How can God expect us to follow such a book given the contradictions? If God is as prideful as people say, he wouldn't have that book be our guide. I would think God would hope his children would know better than to believe that the fallacious Bible would be his guide given that he is infallible. Does this make sense?




Look at it in these terms, if i'm wrong, what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong, what happens? You missing the only opprotunity to live for eternity (which is a good thing) simply because you decided to deny God. Its an easy choice if you ask me...

Ahh, motive for salvation rears its ugly head.

Fear-mongering is a sure-sign of desperation.

[Melton420]

you got a lot to go through man i hope you turn your life around.. and yes i think they are very much signs.... all of these NATURAL DISASTERS happend after we made isreal leave there land ... HUMMMM. no god better think twice

[F L E S H]

you got a lot to go through man i hope you turn your life around.. and yes i think they are very much signs.... all of these NATURAL DISASTERS happend after we made isreal leave there land ... HUMMMM. no god better think twice
You've got to be kidding.... There can be no real social progress as long as people like you are still around.

[andruejaysin]

It pleased God to see his own son nailed to a cross. What do you think he has planned for you?

[ermitonto]

Forgive me ermitonto for replying to a post directed at you.

Don't worry about it. I stopped replying to this wacko when I found out he (she?) is a Fundy. Fundamentalism is like the quicksand of ignorance. Once you're stuck in it, it's very very very hard to get yourself out. I've seen some exceptions but they're so few and far between that I don't even bother arguing with them anymore. It's like arguing with a brick wall (but brick walls have a better sense of logic).