I'm not a communist!

[GHoSToKeR]

Hey,

I'm starting to browse the politics section of this site more and more, as opposed to the Lounge, for reasons I don't think need an explanation. I love reading some of the debates you guys have, and occasionally I throw in a post or two if I have something to say. But one thing really, really bugs me.. (i'm sure this has been discussed before, but I wanna throw in my two cents!)

I have no political affiliation. I don't vote, out of choice. I don't follow or prefer any political party or organization over any other. I like certain qualities of some parties, and other qualities of others. However, when it comes down to it I would always refer to myself as 'liberal', for this reason -

liberal;


broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
having political or social views favoring reform and progress
tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
This is the only definition of a liberal that I mean. I try and be open-minded and tolerant. I'm not a big fan of 'orthidoxy' or tradition, and am a big believer of change for the good.

This is all I mean when I call myself a liberal. That's it. Nothing else. I don't know where you guys have been tought what liberal meant, but the things i've heard on this site, well, some are totally rediculous. Accusations that liberals are working with the homosexual community to undermine Christian values; that liberals want the jihadists to blow the crap out of America, etc etc... I don't believe or want any of this crap. Maybe there are some people who do, and maybe these people call themselves Liberals (with a capital L, I imagine) but when myself and others call themselves liberal they just mean that they have more tolerant, understanding opinions.

I just wanted to clear that up... oh, and I'm not a communist! :p

[Torog]

Howdy GhostToker,

You proclaim:" I just wanted to clear that up... oh, and I'm not a communist! "

I say..good for you man ! I'm also glad that you have defined who you are and what you stand for,it's a good thing to understand yerself better an that's why I like these debates..we define ourselves and our beliefs,git to know what each other is thinking and git exposed to other folk's point's of view. There'a alot of folks who believe,that if ya don't vote..you can't gripe..what say you ?

Have a good one !

[GHoSToKeR]

Hey Torog,

"There'a alot of folks who believe,that if ya don't vote..you can't gripe..what say you?"

Firstly, as you know, I live on a small island in the UK. We have our own 'government' here running this island, and people living here cannot vote in the General Elections of Britain. I would vote for the politicians here, but they are all (and i'm not exaggerating) elderly, upper class, old men with no concept of what is good or bad for this place, and are only in it for themselves. For example.... they decide how much they get paid, so of course, they all earn big salaries for doing what they do. But, these politicians obviously don't think they earn enough because they refuse to pay for parking spaces like everybody else. So do you know what they did? They commandeered a load of Disabled Parking spaces for themselves, free of charge, right in the center of town. They then moved the Disabled Parking spaces to the fifth floor of a multi-story car park. There was, understandably, a 'public outcry' (lol), and the public basically got told to shut up.

My point is, I can't vote for the next Prime Minister, I can only vote to decide who is going to run the island I live on.. and frankly, i'll vote when I see somebody worth voting for. Until then, not voting is my vote.

However, I believe I still have the right to complain if I wish to do so. I still have just as valid an opinion as anybody else. Sharing your opinions on all sorts of subjects is what helps you to learn, about the subjectsand about the people you are discussing them with. Just because one person didn't vote does it mean they are not allowed to share their opinion with everybody else? I'd like to know what you think personally, Torog. :)

[Sgt. Pepper]

I like your original post, Ghostoker. You sum up my feelings about the concept of liberalism exactly.

As a liberal, I DO NOT:

-Cheer for the terrorists and smile whenever they kill our troops.
-Support a state in which it is easier to sit back and collect welfare checks as opposed to work.
-Support affirmative action. It's the wrong solution to the right problem.
-Underestimate the importance of a stong military.
-Think child molestors deserve to ever see the light of day again.
-Support outlandish tax rates. We can still have beneficial public programs with a managable tax rate if we are smart about our money.
-Identify myself as a Christian, but I think they should have all the rights (and lack of rights) that followers of all other religions have.

See, liberals can still be sensible, right?

[Torog]

Hey Torog,

"There'a alot of folks who believe,that if ya don't vote..you can't gripe..what say you?"

Firstly, as you know, I live on a small island in the UK. We have our own 'government' here running this island, and people living here cannot vote in the General Elections of Britain. I would vote for the politicians here, but they are all (and i'm not exaggerating) elderly, upper class, old men with no concept of what is good or bad for this place, and are only in it for themselves. For example.... they decide how much they get paid, so of course, they all earn big salaries for doing what they do. But, these politicians obviously don't think they earn enough because they refuse to pay for parking spaces like everybody else. So do you know what they did? They commandeered a load of Disabled Parking spaces for themselves, free of charge, right in the center of town. They then moved the Disabled Parking spaces to the fifth floor of a multi-story car park. There was, understandably, a 'public outcry' (lol), and the public basically got told to shut up.

My point is, I can't vote for the next Prime Minister, I can only vote to decide who is going to run the island I live on.. and frankly, i'll vote when I see somebody worth voting for. Until then, not voting is my vote.

However, I believe I still have the right to complain if I wish to do so. I still have just as valid an opinion as anybody else. Sharing your opinions on all sorts of subjects is what helps you to learn, about the subjectsand about the people you are discussing them with. Just because one person didn't vote does it mean they are not allowed to share their opinion with everybody else? I'd like to know what you think personally, Torog. :)
Howdy GhostToker,

What you describe,is what we here in Texas and the South,call the 'good ol boy network',usually comprised of affluent old farts who are only looking out for their own interests. They make back-room deals to serve their own interests..the good ol boys around here,for instance,have kept the wages low and warn new business owners to not upset the apple cart by paying their employee's a decent wage.

There's another option,you could strive to make yerself electable and try to change things that way. I'm certain,that you would appeal to others in your age-group,who are sick and tired of the old farts running things without any opposition. You could form a political action committee and start addressing yer concerns to the local media,form protests and lobby for change.

Have a good one ...

PS: I believe in ya man ! I'd vote for ya ! Like NowhereMan's quote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"..or something like that..

[GHoSToKeR]

Hey Torog,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, man! But, I don't have the finances to become a politician. Plus I don't plan to live on this crappy island for much longer... lately i've been thinking more and more about going over to somewhere in America or Canada to work for a while. I'm sure there are alot of people who would dissaprove of that, right? lol.. yourself included?

[amsterdam]

Hey Torog,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, man! But, I don't have the finances to become a politician. Plus I don't plan to live on this crappy island for much longer... lately i've been thinking more and more about going over to somewhere in America or Canada to work for a while. I'm sure there are alot of people who would dissaprove of that, right? lol.. yourself included?


no way man,come on over!!i bet you wont want to leave this great country.

[GHoSToKeR]

Ya, well don't ask me why i've been thinking about the US. I don't like your government, your foriegn policy or your fries. But I love the people, the places and the lifestyle. Canada would be good too. I dunno, I don't have the money to just pack up and go yet... it would be a while (six months or so) before I saved up enough to do it. And by then I may have changed my mind. But yea, right now i'm totally serious about leaving this shit-hole of an island/country. lol :)

[amsterdam]

its because deep down everyone sees America as a beacon of light.2 billion immigrants cant be wrong and a nation as young as ours wich gained as much power and prestige so fast must be doing something right.at least you dont have to construct a home made boat and sail through shark infested waters to escape a communist regime like castros?

[GHoSToKeR]

Hmm.. well, just because America has succeeded in a system that rewards greed, nationalism and selfishness, it doesn't mean America has done well. But I digress. lol

[amsterdam]

ummmm,okay.

selfishness, right.i believe it was the United States who donated billions and billions of dollars to the tsunami victims(however not fast enough for the bitch about everything crowd).that would be more than all the other countries combined.

we havent done well either??we are the richest most powerfull nation on earth.our general quality of life here trumps our english brothers and we all get paid way better than ya'll do.what can we say?when you got it ,you got it.sorry to brag.

[GHoSToKeR]

lol, no need to apologise, it's fair enough. But what I was trying to say that if you consider wealth as a measure of greatness than yes, America is great. Personally wealth doesn't impress me. I just want enough money for the things I need, nothing more.

Anyway, back to the subject.. The UK is so fucking boring compared to the US. Every time i've been there I didn't wanna leave. I haven't been for years and the last time I went I was still young enough to have to go with my family... this time I wanna go alone (probably just for a holiday at first) and do whatever the fuck I feel like. Maybe hang out with some of you Cannabis.commers :)

[amsterdam]

well i want wealth and money and lots of it.rich people are in the best position to be the good guys,because only the rich have the resources to really help those who are need.if thats selfish than oh well.

[GHoSToKeR]

Yeah, that's true.. But more often than not rich people become rich by a complete lack of selflessness or by being selfish. Agreed?

[amsterdam]

but i would not lump all those people into a "most of" category.sure some do.thats life.no matter where you are in the world that happens.

hell,even our poor people in America are fat,that should tell you something.America is the first mass affluent class in history.

[GHoSToKeR]

even our poor people in America are fat
LOL

Okay, so not all rich people are greedy/selfish.. but then again, if they weren't selfish wouldn't they redistribute their wealth to people/places less fortunate? I can't say that I definately would, because I don't know what it's like to be in a position to do so, but I would like to think that even if I became a multi-millionaire I would still share out all my money (charities, funds, etc) until I just had enough to keep myself content and alive. But I suppose everyone has a different definition of 'content'. To some being content is having a £3million mansion and 15 cars.. lol

[amsterdam]

i strongly disagree with the idea that it is the govts. job to redistribute resources from rich to poor.that is unecessary altogether.whenever we have a tax cut here people always say it for the rich.OF COURSE ITS FOR THE RICH,THE RICH PAY MOST OF THE TAXES HERE.i wonder how many americans know that the top 10% of all income earners in this country pay two thirds of ALL income taxes?meanwhile the bottom 50% pay less than 5% of the income taxes.

Thus,if a rich guy makes 250,000$$ and pays 100,000$$ in taxes,and the(relatively) poor guy makes 40,000 and pays 5000$$ in taxes,a ten percent across the board tax cut will cut the rich guys taxes by 10,000$$ and the poor guys taxes by 500$$.This is where the liberals wail,"But the rich guy is getting twenty times more than the poor guy."One does not have to be a math major to figure out that it is not even possible to cut the poor guys taxes by 10,000$$ because he pays only 5000$$$ in the first place,contrary to liberal demagoguery,proportional tax cuts are just because they benefit citizens in proportion to what they have been paying in taxes.

Liberals usually oppose tax cuts and advocate higher taxes for the rich because they are convinced,as the old liberal mantra has it,that "the rich get richer while the poor get poorer."But is that really true?For the past half century,and especially for the past two decades,it has not been true in America.In reality,the rich have grown richer,and the poor have also grown richer,but not at the same pace.

What this means is that lots of people who used to be middle class,or the lower middle class have moved up.In moving up,they have increased the economic distance between themselves and the rest of the population.So,inequality is greater.But the exclusive liberal focus on inequality misses the larger picture,wich shows that more and more people are moving into the ranks of the affluent class.

i had to type this fast but my conclusion is that Capitalism has done more to raise the general standard of living,and to equalize the circumstances of rich and poor,than all the govt. and philanthropic programs put together.this fact undermines the liberal view that aggressive govt. redistribution is needed to preventing inequality.

[weirdo79]

Ironically I'm liberal but if they would actually raise min wage to match cost of living increases across the board , the "poor" might actually stand a chance. Capitalism does work like ANY other system of government well, without corruption. Unfortunately by the very fact of what I stated at the beginning of this , it obviously is very corrupted or else it(the wages) would have matched standard of living, thats how capitalism is SUPPOSED to work.

[GHoSToKeR]

What this means is that lots of people who used to be middle class,or the lower middle class have moved up.In moving up,they have increased the economic distance between themselves and the rest of the population.So,inequality is greater.But the exclusive liberal focus on inequality misses the larger picture,wich shows that more and more people are moving into the ranks of the affluent class.

Surprisingly I completely agree. Economical politics have never interested me, to be honest, so alas I don't know enough about thje subject. However, I completely agree with you on that. What we define as 'poor' in the west is not entirely poor, just relatively poor. Whenever I talk about "poor" people I am referring to homeless people and the like.. people who are truely poor, not people who are just not rich.

Weirdo.. you're right. Most governmental systems are a great idea, but sadly most of the fail or become corrupt because of mans greed. That is why communism will never succeed, though it seems, on the surface, to be the best idea.

[weirdo79]

I'm a commie too ;), Just in the most basic way. The layers that many "leaders" of certain countries added to it just don't fly with me though (much like republics are gold to me unfortunately they always degenerate, nature of power I guess....)

[Sinsemilla Jones]

:rolleyes:

Wonder what old Karl was smoking when he thought THAT was gonna happen?
:p

[budright03]

Ya, well don't ask me why i've been thinking about the US. I don't like your government, your foriegn policy or your fries. But I love the people, the places and the lifestyle. Canada would be good too. I dunno, I don't have the money to just pack up and go yet... it would be a while (six months or so) before I saved up enough to do it. And by then I may have changed my mind. But yea, right now i'm totally serious about leaving this shit-hole of an island/country. lol :)


Just check out some of the voices of the american people. Find another country.

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=555043&func=3&channel=News+AOL+Managed&refresh=true

[amsterdam]

Just check out some of the voices of the american people. Find another country.

http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=555043&func=3&channel=News+AOL+Managed&refresh=true


a mix bag of everything,i love this country. :D

[Torog]

Hey Torog,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, man! But, I don't have the finances to become a politician. Plus I don't plan to live on this crappy island for much longer... lately i've been thinking more and more about going over to somewhere in America or Canada to work for a while. I'm sure there are alot of people who would dissaprove of that, right? lol.. yourself included?
Howdy GhostToker,

Heck yeah ! Come on over ! Yer welcome here in Texas ! The oil patch is paying 19$ an hour for entry level roughnecks and 20-30$ a day per diem..you could make 3-4k$ a month ! The cost of living is probably much less than what you are used to,as well. Of course,there are many other jobs here too,I ain't saying that there's only oil-field jobs,but it would git you on yer feet fast,making that kind of cash.

Have a good one !

[amsterdam]

come on over.