Women's Rights in the New Iraq

[Sgt. Pepper]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0723-06.htm

The link explains how women's rights are not guaranteed in the New Iraq, as the current draft of the constitution forbids any law contradicting Islam. That's right, we gave them a chance for democracy and they blew it. What are we shedding all this blood for just to guarantee the rights of half the country? just over a year ago, Bush said (and I'm paraphrasing) that inside every person is the yearning to be free and that is the reason that the Iraqi people will rise above the oppression they knew in the past and embrace a healthy democracy. Well, it turns out that he's dead wrong.

If Iraq does become an Islamic republic, how can anyone justify our actions there?

[ermitonto]

Bush doesn't really care about the level of "freedom" or "democracy" in Iraq. To him, those are just meaningless buzzwords (http://a4a.mahost.org/buzz.html) used to garner support for American economic interests. Of course any country which accepts shari'a (Islamic law) as the basis of its legislation is not going to have democracy: the rules are coming from official religious doctrine, not from the people. This is not only unfair for the non-Muslims in Iraq who are forced to conform to Islamic religious tenets, it undermines the ability of the Iraqi people to improve on rules established over a millennium ago, such as the aforementioned irreconciliable problems with women's rights. Shari'a and freedom obviously cannot co-exist, since shari'a draws no distinction between political and religious life. It is submission to the religious opinions of the theocrats in power, the submission of the present to the dictates of the past, and contrary to the core principle of any democratic theory of organization â?? that the people should possess the power to run and change society as they see fit. The new Iraq, if it accepts shari'a law, is bound to become just as brutal as the previous régime.

[Fengzi]

I don't neccessarily see this (women's rights are not guaranteed in the New Iraq) as a bad thing, certainly not as a failure. The lack of women's rights in Iraq was not something instituted by Saddam Hussein. A woman's position in Muslim society is deeply ingrained in their culture. This isn't going to change overnight. This is also different from what we saw in Afghanistan were the women were suddenly "liberated" when the Taliban fell. The extreme suppression of women under the rule of the Taliban was not somehting that existed for hundreds of years. The Taliban were only in power from 1996 until 2001 and when they fell womens rights simply returned to what they were in pre-Taliban days. Much like what they will probably be in Iraq as well as every other Muslim country.

I wonder what do the Iraqi women really want. I'm sure they want the right not to be picked up off the street by an evil dictator's son and raped repeatedly. But do they really want the right to wear daisy dukes and a halter top? Not likely. Americans tend to be extremely ethnocentric, thinking that everyone else in the world wants the exact thing we do. This isn't always the case. We can't think that just because Iraq doesn't turn into a carbon copy of America that their "democracy" is a failure.

[ermitonto]

Well, I for one think freedom is meaningless without equality. Freedom isn't just the right to put a check mark on a ballot every few years. Part of freedom is the freedom from other people's religious tenets being imposed on you.

[Fengzi]

Well, I for one think freedom is meaningless without equality. Freedom isn't just the right to put a check mark on a ballot every few years. Part of freedom is the freedom from other people's religious tenets being imposed on you.
Exactly erimonto! You hit the nail on the head. "Part of freedom is the freedom from other people's religious tenets being imposed on you." Part of freedom is also not having other people's values and belief systems forced on you. Iraq is 95%+ Muslim, they have their own religous tenets, values, and beleifs. I agree that freedom is meaningless without equality. But that is what we, as Americans believe. If it is not what they believe, however, and we try to impose our values on them, as logical as they may seem to us, are we not guilty of the very thing we are trying to prevent??

[ermitonto]

So what if the vast majority of Iraqis are Muslim? They can choose to live according to whatever religion they want. That does not give them the right to force the other 5% to conform to their religious beliefs, however. If they don't want women to wear halter tops, they don't need a law against it. They just need to practice their religion and not do that. Church + state = theocracy, not democracy.

[Fengzi]

"So what if the vast majority of Iraqis are Muslim?" Well, for one this is going to have an enormous impact on their culture. Like it or not much of our culture is based on Christian values. I personally wouldn't have anything against walking down the street in the nude and wouldn't care if someone else did. Yet it is illegal. Why? Cultural values of the majority of Americans, most likely based on some Christian value about modesty.

Anyhow, I'm getting away from the point I was originally trying to make. All I'm trying to say is that whatever form the new Iraq takes, it will mostly be based on their cultural values. It seems that anytime anything happens over there that goes against what we believe in everybody gets all exited. Ultimately, it is what they, the majority of Iraqi's beleive in that counts. We shouldn't consider it a failure if it is not a carbon copy of the United States.

[ermitonto]

I don't think a carbon copy of the United States would be good for any country, but freedom of religion is just as important here as anywhere else. I have no delusions of Iraq (or the US for that matter) achieving true freedom anytime soon, that is, the ability to do whatever we want so long as we don't infringe on that ability for others, even if it goes against the dominant religious beliefs. The useless laws against nudity, like the useless Iraqi laws ensuring the continuation of gender inequality, must be opposed if we are ever to achieve true freedom as I define it.

[Fengzi]

Oh, I get it now. They'd be better with no government and no laws at all. So would we for that matter. Why didn't I see the light sooner? Duh..

[ermitonto]

Well, that's how I view the situation. (By the way, anarchy doesn't necessarily imply absence of laws, just absence of centralized, hierarchical law enforcement; murderers and rapists would still have to be dealt with by the members of the community through some sort of collective organization.)

Not that it would work in a society full of shari'a-devoted Muslims, but it's a goal to be striving towards.

[Psycho4Bud]

Women in Iraq have the right to vote and played a big part of their last elections. If they don't like the "Islamic" wording, it's up to them to demonstrate this at the polls.

[Sgt. Pepper]

A good point, Psycho. But I just can't get past the fact that we're pouring valuable money and blood into this country just to give them the chance to vote for an oppressive Islamic society, even though they ARE actually getting to vote. Our resources could be better used on countries who actually want a true democracy. I don't see why our troops should die to give the Iraqi women the chance to vote for their own oppression.

Jeez, I'm too stoned for this. This whole situation is too sticky.

[Fengzi]

The fact is Sgt. Pepper, we never should have gone in the first place. Don't forget, the real reason we went was because they had lots and lots of WMD's. We didn't go to spread democracy. When we didn't find all those WMD's the focus changed from the WMD's to their terrorist connection. Now that everybody knows that's a bunch of shit too the focus has shifted to bringing them democracy, their elections, and their constitution. its all smoke and mirrors and when this goes bad GW and his boys will come up with some other reason why we should be there.

But whether or not we should have gone in the first place, thanks to the genius of our supreme leader we did go. We can't just pull out now. Think about it, we bombed the shit out of the place and threw it into total political chaos. To leave now would be like all those times you hear about the police busting into someone's home with a search warrant. They tear everything up and totally fuck up the place. Then when they don't find what never existed in the first place they say sorry and go leaving you to clean up the mess. We can't do that to Iraq. We have a responsibility to the Iraqi's . We have to face the fact that we have to finish what we started. We broke it, now we have to fix it.

[nicholasstanko]

I don't think a carbon copy of the United States would be good for any country, but freedom of religion is just as important here as anywhere else. I have no delusions of Iraq (or the US for that matter) achieving true freedom anytime soon, that is, the ability to do whatever we want so long as we don't infringe on that ability for others, even if it goes against the dominant religious beliefs. The useless laws against nudity, like the useless Iraqi laws ensuring the continuation of gender inequality, must be opposed if we are ever to achieve true freedom as I define it.

ihmmm..i have a sugestio for both you and fengzi. how about the u.s. opens its borders wide open for the iraqi citizens. The laws will be established according to muslim culture, right? so of course if that is what the iraqis truly want, they should be able to choose between the judeo-christian idealism and muslim one. If this new-found freedom is so great, then it should be no problem and iraqis will shrug off the chance to go to america, since america made their lives so perfect.


God, i wish someone would ask bush that without him seeing it coming. :cool:

[nicholasstanko]

The fact is Sgt. Pepper, we never should have gone in the first place. Don't forget, the real reason we went was because they had lots and lots of WMD's. We didn't go to spread democracy. When we didn't find all those WMD's the focus changed from the WMD's to their terrorist connection. Now that everybody knows that's a bunch of shit too the focus has shifted to bringing them democracy, their elections, and their constitution. its all smoke and mirrors and when this goes bad GW and his boys will come up with some other reason why we should be there.

But whether or not we should have gone in the first place, thanks to the genius of our supreme leader we did go. We can't just pull out now. Think about it, we bombed the shit out of the place and threw it into total political chaos. To leave now would be like all those times you hear about the police busting into someone's home with a search warrant. They tear everything up and totally fuck up the place. Then when they don't find what never existed in the first place they say sorry and go leaving you to clean up the mess. We can't do that to Iraq. We have a responsibility to the Iraqi's . We have to face the fact that we have to finish what we started. We broke it, now we have to fix it.


broke what? a dictatorship regime that was organised in favour of a disorganised puppet govment?

i say, we fucked up by supporting the war/doing nohing to oppose it. americans shouldnt be trusted to do this alone. i say go back to the u.n. make a declaration of apology and carry out cease fire treaties with the insurgent leaders.

so fucking what if we were wrng, so fucking what if it's embarrassing for the u.s.? what the hell was vietnam?


lives have been wasted and the people have been lied to. spain can rise up and do the right thing by ousting their govment but the citizens of supposedly the mightiest nation on earth are too scared or confused to do anything about it? bush is fucking superman now?

jesus christ, what kind of fucking pussy ass society do we live in? i was watching cnn the other morning and Solebad was talking about "fun and neat" surprises for back to school. and one of her tips was to send your kids to school with a picture of the parent(s) in their lunchbox to help them get through the day... WHAT THE FLYING FUCK?!!?!?!?!? so im supposed to trust the greatest force in the world to some diaper wearing skinny ass bastard who cant get over his mommy syndrome.

America needs a wake up people! and for fucks sake, it looks lik canada is getting just as bad not too far behind....

[Sgt. Pepper]

The fact is Sgt. Pepper, we never should have gone in the first place. Don't forget, the real reason we went was because they had lots and lots of WMD's. We didn't go to spread democracy. When we didn't find all those WMD's the focus changed from the WMD's to their terrorist connection. Now that everybody knows that's a bunch of shit too the focus has shifted to bringing them democracy, their elections, and their constitution. its all smoke and mirrors and when this goes bad GW and his boys will come up with some other reason why we should be there.


Fengzi, I've been saying that since late 2002 ever since the propaganda campaign began. This situation is too heavy and they have it planned so we'll never leave! Then again, where do you think we want to have a military presence when China finally begins it's process of gaining more living space? Bingo - the oil resources in the Middle East. I'm too high for this. I guarantee, before this century is over, the US and China will be at war. I don't like where this world is going...

[Psycho4Bud]

i say, we fucked up by supporting the war/doing nohing to oppose it. americans shouldnt be trusted to do this alone. i say go back to the u.n. make a declaration of apology and carry out cease fire treaties with the insurgent leaders.

Apologize to the U.N.? I suppose we can give Chirac a little peck on the ass for the hell of it too. :rolleyes:

so fucking what if we were wrng, so fucking what if it's embarrassing for the u.s.? what the hell was vietnam?

WE were wrong? Thought you were Canadian?

What the hell was Vietnam? Check your history books. It was a war started by the French and after 90,000 dead they ran up the white flag and left the U.S. holding the bag! OOPS, forgot. Thats an American war...right? :rolleyes:

[nicholasstanko]

WE were wrong? Thought you were Canadian?

What the hell was Vietnam? Check your history books. It was a war started by the French and after 90,000 dead they ran up the white flag and left the U.S. holding the bag! OOPS, forgot. Thats an American war...right? :rolleyes:


i'm eligible for american citizenship since i'm married and have a child living in the u.s. also, im fucking sick and tired of ignorant americans who accept our troops with open arms, but any criticism of the war policy fals on shocked and appalled ears. You guys even blew up our people and we STILL sent troops to help you fight. but whatever, ignorance is your selling point i guess.

Vietnam was a mistake. It was controlled so that after all the money was made, they pulled out without having any serious repercussons to the army. In fact, i'll bet that the u.s. govmnt counts on dissidents to stir up trouble so they have a nifty excuse as to why they have to pull out.

[Mojavpa]

Bush doesn't really care about the level of "freedom" or "democracy" in Iraq. To him, those are just meaningless buzzwords (http://a4a.mahost.org/buzz.html) used to garner support for American economic interests. Of course any country which accepts shari'a (Islamic law) as the basis of its legislation is not going to have democracy: the rules are coming from official religious doctrine, not from the people. This is not only unfair for the non-Muslims in Iraq who are forced to conform to Islamic religious tenets, it undermines the ability of the Iraqi people to improve on rules established over a millennium ago, such as the aforementioned irreconciliable problems with women's rights. Shari'a and freedom obviously cannot co-exist, since shari'a draws no distinction between political and religious life. It is submission to the religious opinions of the theocrats in power, the submission of the present to the dictates of the past, and contrary to the core principle of any democratic theory of organization â?? that the people should possess the power to run and change society as they see fit. The new Iraq, if it accepts shari'a law, is bound to become just as brutal as the previous régime.

Yes, but shariah law is flexible and open to interpretation. I seriously doubt it will be carbon copy of the type of law implemented in Saudi Arabia, which is probably the most extreme kind of shari'a. It depends on the country, and their own values. During Saddam's time, christians were allowed some freedoms like being able to alcohol, but the biggest problem for the Christians is not their disenfranchisement but the continued harassment they have to deal with everyday from their neighbors. Christian girls, for example, are abducted and forcibly converted. It just seems like most muslims in Iraq just dont really about Christians rights now, and who can blame them, when they have their own problems to wirry about everyday, like lack of power, bombings, etc.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator2/spec575.html

As for the rights of women, more cultural factors come into play than Islam. For example, honor killings are a huge problem in the middle east, and Islamic leaders have condemned them but they're still a big problem. I'm not too familiar with Iraqi attitudes towards women, but I'm sure its somewhat sexist, which will prevent women from getting jobs, etc.

It is very possible that regime will be ruthless regardless of how "islamic" it is. Look at Saddam's regime. Saddam wasnt exactly the most religious man, but he still knew how to quiet his opponents, with help from our funding.

[Psycho4Bud]

Part of their PREAMBLE
We the people of Iraq, newly arisen from our disasters and looking with confidence to the future through a democratic, federal, republican system, are determined -- men and women, old and young -- to respect the rule of law, reject the policy of aggression, pay attention to women and their rights, the elderly and their cares, the children and their affairs, spread the culture of diversity and defuse terrorism.


PART ONE: RIGHTS

FIRST: Civil and political rights.

Article (14): Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex, ethnicity, nationality, origin, color, religion, sect, belief, opinion or social or economic status.

Article (20): Citizens, male and female, have the right to participate in public matters and enjoy political rights, including the right to vote and run as candidates.

Article (35):3rd -- Forced labor, slavery and the commerce in slaves is forbidden, as is the trading in women or children or the sex trade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/international/middleeast/24wire-itex.html?pagewanted=1

This is information I found through page 6. It seems as if they have womens rights covered.

[amsterdam]

we grow tired and laugh at you silly socialist canucks also,if i were you i would avoid coming to america,you are going to see a huge shift to the right in the coming years my friend,in canada also.

[nicholasstanko]

we grow tired and laugh at you silly socialist canucks also,if i were you i would avoid coming to america,you are going to see a huge shift to the right in the coming years my friend,in canada also.


i dont mind a right shift in canada.


paul martins liberal agenda is laughable at best.

[amsterdam]

fair enough,lets hope your country dosent split up either.

[Fengzi]

It might surpise you Nicholas, but I agree with most of what you say.



broke what? a dictatorship regime that was organised in favour of a disorganised puppet govment? ....
Now don't get me wrong, Saddam was terrible and, hopefully some day, Iraq will be a better place without him. Certainly the world is a better place now that he is not the leader of any country. But, regardless of the fact that Saddam Hussein was a crazy ass dictator, there was some stability in Iraq. Our president chose to end that stability and since he started it he has to finish it one way or another. Simply packing up and leaving the way it is right now isn't really an option.


i say, we fucked up by supporting the war/doing nohing to oppose it. americans shouldnt be trusted to do this alone. i say go back to the u.n. make a declaration of apology and carry out cease fire treaties with the insurgent leaders.....
Absolutely right. Actually, I was against the war from the beginning. Unfortunately this country is full of sheep like Amsterdam who all jumped on the bandwagon before it was too late. I like your idea about going to the U.N. as well. If we could negotaite a cease fire with the insurgents I'd be all for it. I don't think we have to stay and fight until every last one is killed. I just think we need to stay until it is resolved. We don't want to leave it more fucked up than before we went there.


so fucking what if we were wrng, so fucking what if it's embarrassing for the u.s.? what the hell was vietnam? ..... We can do this the right way or the wrong way. The right way is for Bush to admit to the world that he was wrong and then go on to make things right in Iraq. The wrong way is just to pull out now with our tail between our legs. You know the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"



lives have been wasted and the people have been lied to. spain can rise up and do the right thing by ousting their govment but the citizens of supposedly the mightiest nation on earth are too scared or confused to do anything about it? bush is fucking superman now? ..... Sadly it does seem like Bush is superman right now. Remember John Gotti- The Teflon Don. Bush is like the Teflon Imbicile. Nothing sticks. Somehow the idiot has convinced so many people that what he is doing is good for the country. People have equated supporting Bush with Patriotism and going against Bush as supporting the terrorist. Baaaahhh. If only they could think for themselves.


jesus christ, what kind of fucking pussy ass society do we live in? i was watching cnn the other morning and Solebad was talking about "fun and neat" surprises for back to school. and one of her tips was to send your kids to school with a picture of the parent(s) in their lunchbox to help them get through the day... WHAT THE FLYING FUCK?!!?!?!?!? so im supposed to trust the greatest force in the world to some diaper wearing skinny ass bastard who cant get over his mommy syndrome. .....

Ummm....somebody needs a bong hit :p