Another thread about China....

[F L E S H]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c8.html

Top Chinese general warns US over attack
By Alexandra Harney in Beijing and Demetri Sevastopulo and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: July 14 2005 21:59 | Last updated: July 15 2005 00:03

China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan, a Chinese general said on Thursday.


â??If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,â?� said General Zhu Chenghu.

Gen Zhu was speaking at a function for foreign journalists organised, in part, by the Chinese government. He added that China's definition of its territory included warships and aircraft.

â??If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,â?� said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.

â??We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.â?�

Gen Zhu is a self-acknowledged â??hawkâ?� who has warned that China could strike the US with long-range missiles. But his threat to use nuclear weapons in a conflict over Taiwan is the most specific by a senior Chinese official in nearly a decade.

However, some US-based China experts cautioned that Gen Zhu probably did not represent the mainstream People's Liberation Army view.

â??He is running way beyond his brief on what China might do in relation to the US if push comes to shove,â?� said one expert with knowledge of Gen Zhu. â??Nobody who is cleared for information on Chinese war scenarios is going to talk like this,â?� he added.

Gen Zhu's comments come as the Pentagon prepares to brief Congress next Monday on its annual report on the Chinese military, which is expected to take a harder line than previous years. They are also likely to fuel the mounting anti-China sentiment on Capitol Hill.

In recent months, a string of US officials, including Donald Rumsfeld, defence secretary, have raised concerns about China's military rise. The Pentagon on Thursday declined to comment on â??hypothetical scenariosâ?�.

Rick Fisher, a former senior US congressional official and an authority on the Chinese military, said the specific nature of the threat â??is a new addition to China's public discourseâ?�. China's official doctrine has called for no first use of nuclear weapons since its first atomic test in 1964. But Gen Zhu is not the first Chinese official to refer to the possibility of using such weapons first in a conflict over Taiwan.

Chas Freeman, a former US assistant secretary of defence, said in 1996 that a PLA official had told him China could respond in kind to a nuclear strike by the US in the event of a conflict with Taiwan. The official is believed to have been Xiong Guangkai, now the PLA's deputy chief of general staff.

Gen Zhu said his views did not represent official Chinese policy and he did not anticipate war with the US.

Additional reporting by Richard McGregor in Beijing
............................

What do you think? Seriously, I think asking this guy about attacking the US is like asking Torog if he would drop nukes on Saudi Arabia... I see this as the US's next big propaganda campaign: to convince the public that China is the new evil empire that threatens freedom and democracy and seeks a worldwide communist empire. This is only the beginning of the brainwashing the media will attempt for the next few years. Pretty soon, Holywood will follow suit and make the Chinese the evil villains in all their new movies.

[nicholasstanko]

shit. yeh i see that coming from a mile away. the whole point of china taking over taiwan is to reassure its the supreme power in asia and of course that taiwan strait has many beneficial shipping options.

it always amazes me when you talk to someone and they casually say "china's gonna be the next major super power you know...". theyve been quietly building their military and economy and now they plan to jointly train with russian troops.

so now because of american complacency (well all the "good" guys i guess) we've got a huge issue to deal with. either let taiwan be taken and ignore the "freedom for all" rhetoric and let china achieve its goal of supremacy or we can take them on and start a nuclear war/world war 3. thanks bush.

oh, and if you think the japanese arent shitting their pants right now you've got to be kidding. i guess that's whats going on when i read that the taiwanese president called for the people to resist china like how china resisted the japanese...and we all know how well that worked out.

the end times are near...roll a fatty and proceed to fuck indiscriminately.



let's roll.

[amsterdam]

well if the end comes i will be sad i never got to beat a man to death while wearing a suit.

[nicholasstanko]

i'd just like to make someone piss their pants as i held a gun to their head. i'd prefer child molesters and rapists, but six-year old kids are okay too. j/k.



or am i...



let's roll.

[nicholasstanko]

j/k

[amsterdam]

do you like george carlin?

[nicholasstanko]

yeh he's really cool. i like his cynicism.

[Fengzi]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4a7-11d9-9dd1-00000e2511c8.html

............................

What do you think? Seriously, I think asking this guy about attacking the US is like asking Torog if he would drop nukes on Saudi Arabia... I see this as the US's next big propaganda campaign: to convince the public that China is the new evil empire that threatens freedom and democracy and seeks a worldwide communist empire. This is only the beginning of the brainwashing the media will attempt for the next few years. Pretty soon, Holywood will follow suit and make the Chinese the evil villains in all their new movies.

Wow FLESH, its good to see somebody who actually understands. Although I disagree with you on one point. This isn't going to happen over the next few years, its been going on for a while and most people are already convinced that China is the new evil empire.

This is so typical of the American media. They make this big story that sounds like China is going to nuke us tomorrow. Only after getting everyone worked up do they throw in one final sentence "Gen Zhu said his views did not represent official Chinese policy and he did not anticipate war with the US." In other words, everything written prior to that was irrelevant crap. Most wouldn't even pick up on that though.

I spent four years studying China's culture, language, history, and politics. I lived in China for two years. My wife is Chinese and all of my in-laws still live in China. I'm not trying to brag but I do know considerably more about China than most Americans. What I can tell you is that China is one of the most, if not THE most, misunderstood countries there is. At least misunderstood by Americans.

The American media has been brainwashing us for years and certainly not just about China. I will be the first to admit that I am not immune to their b.s. While I may have a better understanding about the true China I am frightened by what the U.S. media has done to my perceptions about the rest of the world. I congratulate you FLESH on resiting, if only more people would we'd be a lot better off.

[Psycho4Bud]

I wonder if they'll be nice enough to relieve Gen Zhu of duty the same way Truman relieved McCarther for his anti-chineese remarks? :rolleyes: NOT

[nicholasstanko]

gen. macarthur was sacked because he had better ideas about the war in vietnam. he didnt agree to bomb areas with village inhabitants.

[nicholasstanko]

you let them trick you that the best general in the u.s. since patton was ousted because he had "ideaolgical" differences.

[Fengzi]

I wonder if they'll be nice enough to relieve Gen Zhu of duty the same way Truman relieved McCarther for his anti-chineese remarks? :rolleyes: NOT

Don't kid yourself. Governments don't relieve for improper comments anymore. Not them or us. Don't agree? Well it certainly doesn't look like Karl Rove will be filing for unemployment anytime soon.

Hopefully I'm wrong though. :o

[Psycho4Bud]

gen. macarthur was sacked because he had better ideas about the war in vietnam. he didnt agree to bomb areas with village inhabitants.

Wrong war....Korea.

[nicholasstanko]

Wrong war....Korea.

FUCK! thats twice now.


okay. im going to sit and breathe for a few. then ill be back.



the idea's still the same though!



"MORAN!"


let's roll.

[Psycho4Bud]

Come on Nick...you can do it....just sit back...relax...smoke a fatty....it'll all come back to ya! :D And take a big fuckin hit for me too!!!! :D

[nicholasstanko]

Come on Nick...you can do it....just sit back...relax...smoke a fatty....it'll all come back to ya! :D And take a big fuckin hit for me too!!!! :D

with pleasure.

i love smoking weed.

let's roll

[BlueCat]

so pass it this way! Pfft

So I have a question, why is Chinese communism=good/tolerable
Cuban communism=bad/sanctions

Anyone?

[pisshead]

china's threatening to nuke us again? quick! let's invade syria!

[Fengzi]

so pass it this way! Pfft

So I have a question, why is Chinese communism=good/tolerable
Cuban communism=bad/sanctions

Anyone?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Fengzi]

^And ego. Basically the economic incentive to lifting the sanctions against Cuba doesn't outweight the blow to our ego that would result from "giving in" .

[pisshead]

i think china is good and loving and cares about freedom, that's why we support them. i think communism is just fantastic, and i hope we one day get all of china's freedoms...we're well on our way.

how dare you speak bad about china. support them, love them.

[nicholasstanko]

so pass it this way! Pfft

So I have a question, why is Chinese communism=good/tolerable
Cuban communism=bad/sanctions

Anyone?

china can actually put up a good fight.

[Fengzi]

i think china is good and loving and cares about freedom, that's why we support them. i think communism is just fantastic, and i hope we one day get all of china's freedoms...we're well on our way.

how dare you speak bad about china. support them, love them.

Come on Pisshead, I expected more from you. Now you just sound like Amsterdam.

[nicholasstanko]

Come on Pisshead, I expected more from you. Now you just sound like Amsterdam.

dont worry. he's being sarcastic.

[pisshead]

yeah, that was all sarcasm.

[pisshead]

yeah, that was all sarcasm. it's just so incredible how the fake left and fake right are exactly the same, supporting the same thing. it's so easy to see the propaganda.

[nicholasstanko]

i hear ya. did you hear alex's show today? i thought it was one of his skits but shit...it got pretty wild for a few minutes. i didnt know people got so passionate anymore.

thats so creepy...i actually forgot what a true patriot is.

[Fengzi]

dont worry. he's being sarcastic.
Trust me, I know. Pisshead and I have had a disagreement about China before. He can't find any quotes on his conspiracy theory websites to debate with me, however, so he responds this way.

[pisshead]

the country's basically being flushed down the shitter, there's so much bread and circus and decadence and evil surrounding this whole thing...the monstrosity of it all leaves me speechless...the outrights lies as a world dictatorship is being set up controlled by such few people in the world, under a pretext of lies and a made up enemy.

the medical route seems to be a good way to go to mandate dictatorship, such as outlined in the model state emergency health powers act and some recent executive orders. i think that's the way things will ultimately go.

if history repeats, then why can't we see the direction we're obviously going? it makes me a little upset too. but how dare i question things...

[pisshead]

i was referring to the absurdity of my government, when they tell us iraq was such a threat, that a giant tolerated dictatorship i guess we could call it can threaten to nuke us, but there's absolutely zero talk of liberating them, and the average person isn't even aware of how open so many countries are about saying they want to nuke us, and we never say anything bad about them.

[Fengzi]

i was referring to the absurdity of my government, when they tell us iraq was such a threat, that a giant tolerated dictatorship i guess we could call it can threaten to nuke us, but there's absolutely zero talk of liberating them, and the average person isn't even aware of how open so many countries are about saying they want to nuke us, and we never say anything bad about them.
I'll agree with you on part of this one although I don't think anyone has ever said they "want" to nuke us. Well, maybe someone in Al Quaeda or other terrorist group but that's a different thread. Anyhow, our government is like the playground bully, we only pick on those that have no chance against us. If there's any percieved chance that we could get a bloody nose we head the other way.

[Psycho4Bud]

Liberate China...can't! They are a nuclear superpower. Any country right now with nuclear capability falls under that catagory. At one time is was just the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., now there are alot more players. I found a site with some information I was looking for describing world thinking regarding nukes...or at least the U.S. and U.S.S.R's.:

The two superpowers justified this build-up of warheads by saying that the threat to the other side of massive retaliation was enough to ensure that they would never be used. This theory is known as â??deterrenceâ?? and it says that, because of the terrible consequences to both sides of a nuclear war, neither side would risk starting one. The situation became known as â??mutually assured destructionâ?? (with the rather appropriate acronym of MAD).
http://www.comeclean.org.uk/articles.php?articleID=14

Now it seems like any two bit dictator is getting his paws on this shit...which brings us into the age of high energy beams.:

In electron beam weapons a series of step up electric transformers may be used to condition the electric current produced by the alternating current electric generator to have a potential difference (voltage ), of from 100,000,000 volts to 1,000,000,000 volts .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon

What a wonderful world we live in! :D

[Euphoric]

i have no personal preference over one corrupted government or the other. *hugs canada* :)

[Euphoric]

wait canada sucks too. man, fuck earth...come on cannabis.com, lets start our own colony on the moon

[F L E S H]

Wow FLESH, its good to see somebody who actually understands. Although I disagree with you on one point. This isn't going to happen over the next few years, its been going on for a while and most people are already convinced that China is the new evil empire.

This is so typical of the American media. They make this big story that sounds like China is going to nuke us tomorrow. Only after getting everyone worked up do they throw in one final sentence "Gen Zhu said his views did not represent official Chinese policy and he did not anticipate war with the US." In other words, everything written prior to that was irrelevant crap. Most wouldn't even pick up on that though.

I spent four years studying China's culture, language, history, and politics. I lived in China for two years. My wife is Chinese and all of my in-laws still live in China. I'm not trying to brag but I do know considerably more about China than most Americans. What I can tell you is that China is one of the most, if not THE most, misunderstood countries there is. At least misunderstood by Americans.

The American media has been brainwashing us for years and certainly not just about China. I will be the first to admit that I am not immune to their b.s. While I may have a better understanding about the true China I am frightened by what the U.S. media has done to my perceptions about the rest of the world. I congratulate you FLESH on resiting, if only more people would we'd be a lot better off.
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a bit of a chinese culture nut, and my girlfriend is chinese too :D Actually, in september I'm taking an intensive mandarin class, which should be interesting....

But yeah, China is misunderstood big time. My girlfriend actually likes to point out the irony in the fact that the Chinese, as a people, are one of the most capitalist cultures in the world, and yet the government is 'communist'. I'm pretty sure also that except for the official party line, no one in China would support any sort of war against the US. I say instead of fearing them and antagonizing them, we should welcome them with open arms into the world community. The hard-line communists are on their last legs, every year their economy becomes more and more western. Why make them our enemies? It makes no sense (I know, I know, there's always the question of $$$$$$$$$$$)

[root]

With out a dought China will become the next world Superpower!
This has the U.S. goverment fearing China big time.
The U.S. goverment has no control over China what so ever!
They have no ideal how large their army really is!
They really don't no now many Chinese there really are.
1.8 billion 2 or 3 billion or more?
The Chinese have told the U.S. goverment that in 2012 they are sending a
maned space flight to the moon with intent of setting up a lunar base.
They have at least 53+ Atomic subs roaming the oceans right now
with 1 to 3 new subs being built every year.
There is no way the U.S. can keep up with china.
They have also warned Pakistan, India, and any other country that
borders China that if one shell, one bullet hits their country this will
be taken as act of war against China and that country will be invaded
by the Chinese army.
Just think of it! 500 million+ screaming chinese invading india or pakistan or the middle east.
That's the end of that country. What ever country it may be.
The old communism is dieing off in china today.
But the U.S. goverment is still screaming, watch out for the red chinese.
The evil red chinese and there evil communism will destory are way of life!
What Bullshit. It sounds like the U.S. goverment is stuck in the 1950's
with there evil communism crapp.
This is not the 1950's were living in. It's the 21's century people and if the U.S. goverment still think's china is run by hard core communism why are they letting Wall-Mart, I.B.M, MicroSoft in to china?
The only reason the U.S. goverment is spredding this type of fear and lies about China
to the people of the U.S.A is this.
The U.S. goverment has no power, no control of the chinese goverment, and they never will have any real power over China.
China will never allow this to happen to them!
This is why the U.S. goverment fear's China so much!

[Psycho4Bud]

With out a dought China will become the next world Superpower!

The only reason the U.S. goverment is spredding this type of fear and lies about China
to the people of the U.S.A is this.
The U.S. goverment has no power, no control of the chinese goverment, and they never will have any real power over China.
China will never allow this to happen to them!
This is why the U.S. goverment fear's China so much!

WILL become...their already there dude!

Yipper, thats the only reason the U.S. watches China. :eek: Keeping a currency artificially deflated so you have a superior trade advantage has NOTHING to do with it. Having a leading General state how he would nuke the States definately didn't make a rats ass difference. We're all just mad cause we can't pick on them. :rolleyes:

[pisshead]

that's not why i'm mad...i'm mad because we let our manufacturing base be shipped away to slave labor so we can buy the stuff a little cheaper, which is more important than quite a few states each losing hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs.

i'm mad because CAFTA is going to further sell out our sovereignty and create a massive lower class...slowly chipping away at the perceived middle class. i say perceived because the true upper class is worth hundreds of trillions of dollars, held by very few people.

[nicholasstanko]

that's not why i'm mad...i'm mad because we let our manufacturing base be shipped away to slave labor so we can buy the stuff a little cheaper, which is more important than quite a few states each losing hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs.

i'm mad because CAFTA is going to further sell out our sovereignty and create a massive lower class...slowly chipping away at the perceived middle class. i say perceived because the true upper class is worth hundreds of trillions of dollars, held by very few people.


i wish people could see it. they delude themselves with images of the luxurious life and they pay for it with having theirs and children's ripped away. right by right. freedom by freedom.

i just dont understand why there's this sense of "china...the good guys" being portrayed by the media. and now watch...within a matter of weeks or even months/years theres going to be a COMPLETE revolution. china...land of the evil empire. and noone'll realise that the elite are tired of selling out to china and want blood. it'll just be another propaganda scheme to make us forget about radical islamist terrorists and focus on radical chinese/north korean terrorists.

and suddenly, out of nowhere, north korean terror cells are going to pop up (even though the citizens are highly repressed) and then we're going to have another war.

looks like china's gearing up to take taiwan pretty soon. enjoy nuclear-free sunshine while it lasts and dont forget to stockpile on munitions. fuck the army, im going to join/form a militia. i dont need their stinkin purple hearts to defend my country from their manipulative bullshit.



all hail hypocrisy in the name of the almighty dollar.

[F L E S H]

WILL become...their already there dude!

Yipper, thats the only reason the U.S. watches China. :eek: Keeping a currency artificially deflated so you have a superior trade advantage has NOTHING to do with it. Having a leading General state how he would nuke the States definately didn't make a rats ass difference. We're all just mad cause we can't pick on them. :rolleyes:
Yeah, how do you think GW is fixing the US economy right now? Didn't you realize that for the past few years the value of the US dollar is steadily decreasing versus every other nation's currency? That's the fastest and easiest way to fix an economy, but it's a quick fix nonetheless and ultimately it doesn't solve the problems which contributed to economic decline. Both China and tthe US are guilty of it, only the US more subtly so.

[nicholasstanko]

yep. three years ago an american dollar would give you about $1.57 canadian. now it's about $1.23 and falling every day.

once the two dollars are on par i expect even wider opened borders.


all hail the one north america new world order

[Psycho4Bud]

yep. three years ago an american dollar would give you about $1.57 canadian. now it's about $1.23 and falling every day.

once the two dollars are on par i expect even wider opened borders.


all hail the one north america new world order

Actually, I'm glad to see the value drop a little. Why you may ask? Assholes in Europe have had the trade advantage on us the same way China does...lower value of currency equals lower cost goods. That creates a need for more exports, that equals more work in the U.S.. Look at the news...which countries bitch the heaviest about the "declining U.S. dollar"? France and Germany! The same dirty fucks that abused the Food for Oil program!

One North America for the NWO? You really don't have ANY faith in your own government I guess.

[Psycho4Bud]

Here's a nice little article on China justice...check out what they'll execute ya for!
http://www.angelfire.com/stars/dorina/dpchina.html

[F L E S H]

Here's a nice little article on China justice...check out what they'll execute ya for!
http://www.angelfire.com/stars/dorina/dpchina.html
Yeah, let's get Texas's execution record then we'll talk

[Psycho4Bud]

Yeah, let's get Texas's execution record then we'll talk

I didn't know they took so much pride in it....DAMN!! Here's a year to year composit:
http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/annual.htm

And the site that it came from:
Texas Department of Criminal Justice
Death Row Information
http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/deathrow.htm

Don't think I'll be going to Texas any time soon!

[BlueCat]

I like the Chinese culture. communism is very interesting. I just don't feel this has anything to do with the Chinese people. It has to do with their government and ours.Both the US and China, are scouring the world for oil, gas and minerals to help power their economy, There really are issues of National security too. It is like a giant game of monopoly and we are losing. The US and China have been buying up resources for some time. Our leaders are more interested in turning a profit, they are hoping the war will keep everyones eyes focus elsewhere while they sell off US companies, move them to China and pocket the profits. I wonder just how long the profits will last. It is a very bad economic move for us. It worries me that they are creating a false economy with the dollar and the human rights violations are still an issue. They have not gone away.

The yuan, is fixed to the US dollar, and is grossly undervalued, keeping China's exports artificially cheap, undermining US exports, putting many Americans out of work and threatening the closure of many industries

we have a whopping US trade deficit with China of 162 billion dollars in 2004, and Beijing used the surplus dollars to buy an array of modern weapons that threaten US security...

Less obvious: a far more insidious grab for industrial secrets. This electronic theft is taking place with the tacit okay, or at least the nonintervention, of the Beijing government.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0725/054.html

from a chinese news paper....

It is assumed by many that one day China leading East Asia will simply walk over and totally surpass the old decadent West, and ascend to global supremacy. The United States will turn inward out of fear of domination, and along with their European compatriots leave the world to the rule of Asian powers, notably China. This view is shared by many within China....

[Psycho4Bud]

Nice post!

"from a chinese news paper....

It is assumed by many that one day China leading East Asia will simply walk over and totally surpass the old decadent West, and ascend to global supremacy. The United States will turn inward out of fear of domination, and along with their European compatriots leave the world to the rule of Asian powers, notably China. This view is shared by many within China.... "

Now I'm sure that China would never ever have these sort of imperialistic feelings! :rolleyes:

[F L E S H]

from a chinese news paper....

It is assumed by many that one day China leading East Asia will simply walk over and totally surpass the old decadent West, and ascend to global supremacy. The United States will turn inward out of fear of domination, and along with their European compatriots leave the world to the rule of Asian powers, notably China. This view is shared by many within China....
That's the craziest thing I've ever read.

[BlueCat]

Not really...that is by no means the views of everyone but they are the views of many and it is the same in both US and China. I think most of it is the fear of the unknown....we need open relations with China but we also need to watch our economy and national security...I don't fear a war but I do fear an economic take over.

[F L E S H]

FEAR!!

The magic word... and the word that rules absolutely everything in the US, left, right, center, old, young, middle... Fear is the motto by which you live your lives. Don't fear, there's no point at all. I say embrace China, let's welcome them into the international community. Let's show them that we're not afraid, but instead we're happy to have such a power on our side.

I know that sounds real hippy and overly optimistic, but what if the West tried it out for once instead of automatically alienating new power players?

[BlueCat]

I don't beleive in fear mongering but I think it would be irresponsible to simply embrace them and not look at what they are doing. They are buying up all the worlds resources. The US and China are using up all the resources it would be foolish to not pay attention.
How would you handle the spying and technology theft?

What about being completely dependent on China when they own everything.
Will they be like Walmart, who sells things really cheap until they put the little man out of business then they raise the price when the competitions gone?

[Fengzi]

from a chinese news paper....

It is assumed by many that one day China leading East Asia will simply walk over and totally surpass the old decadent West, and ascend to global supremacy. The United States will turn inward out of fear of domination, and along with their European compatriots leave the world to the rule of Asian powers, notably China. This view is shared by many within China....

Do you have a link to the full text of this newspaper article? I'd like to read who is saying this and when it was written. The language used, "decadent West", sounds more like something written in the 60's, not today. In any case I would seriously like to read this.

I do agree that the rapid rise is China's economy is going to have a major effect on the other major economies of the world. This in inevitable. You can not have a population of 1/3 billion and consistant double, or nearly double, digit economic growth without having some effect, good or bad, on the rest of the world. As far as an "economic take over" is concerned, however, China is still a long way off.

A lot of people have been shaken up by the recent attempts by Chinese companies to buy Maytag and Unocal. They see this as an attempt of China to take over our economy. China's total worldwide direct investment, however, is still far behind the U.S. direct investment in China alone. Here's an interesting article from, of all places, the Christian Science Monitor,

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0630/p17s01-cogn.html

It is highly unlikely that China will ever "own everything" or even a significant percentage of "everything". Certainly not in our lifetime. Anyone who believes this might as well go hide with Pisshead in his cabin and wait for the Fed's to bust down the door.

U.S. jobs being lost to cheap Chinese labor is a more realistic concern but this too, is inevitable. It simply follows certain domestic and international economic principles that are highly unlikely to change. People like to point the finger at American corporations for raking in huge profits from this while forgetting that they too are benefitting. What would happen if all of these jobs suddenly came back to the U.S.? Skyrocketing inflation, that's what. The increased cost of having an American worker produce them would cause the prices of these goods to increase to the point that most coud no longer afford them. Second, the additional money pumped into the economy from these new jobs would cause further inflation. Workers will now demand more money to pay for the increasing cost of goods resulting in more inflation. People say its a small price to pay to have the jobs back but really, how many of us want to pay $20.00 for a fucking McDonalds happy meal?

What will most likely happen is that China will gain in certain areas that is is strong but fall behind in others. Although it may be painful at first the U.S. will adjust accordingly and will gain in areas where we are strong. This isn't a bad thing though as it pushes us to be better rather than accept complacency. This has been going on for hundreds of years folks. Different players on different teams but its been happening none the less.

And, if you're still concerned, I'll be happy to offer to teach you how to speak Chinese.....

[BlueCat]

I will have to look through my history and find where I read it.

I am trying to cook dinner and post lol

Anyone who believes this might as well go hide with Pisshead in his cabin and wait for the Fed's to bust down the door.
theres no need to be rude or defensive....I'm confused by this I thought we were talking about China and their policies...

CSM is a great read BTW. Damn I burned the potatoes, brb :)

[pisshead]

how dare anyone question the feds' authority or motives, they are all knowing and care so much about me. that would just be silly.

let's see how far that gets us!

[Fengzi]

Sorry 'bout your potatoes BlueCat and sorry if I came off as being rude. I certainly wasn't directing any intentional rudeness at you. I guess I was just trying to emphasize the unlikeliness of this happening and got carried away.

[BlueCat]

potatoes survived! Ok so I am still worried about espionage and motive. They are buying up the world but then so are we. I really want to talk more on this Fengzi
if you can calm my fears than more power to you! I even considered moving to China at one time so I am no way against China, but I worry about a communist government. Maybe when I know more China I won't be worried.
I need more answers but right now I gotta go eat dinner.....I'll ttyl.

How much do you know about Communism?

[nicholasstanko]

Actually, I'm glad to see the value drop a little. Why you may ask? Assholes in Europe have had the trade advantage on us the same way China does...lower value of currency equals lower cost goods. That creates a need for more exports, that equals more work in the U.S.. Look at the news...which countries bitch the heaviest about the "declining U.S. dollar"? France and Germany! The same dirty fucks that abused the Food for Oil program!

One North America for the NWO? You really don't have ANY faith in your own government I guess.


i dont have faith in my government. i never had faith in my government.


i have faith in the canadian people to do the right thing and not let our way of life be changed drastically unless we say so.

paul martin is a schmuck. the whole fucking parliament is turning into a bunch of fucks. i dont care and never did care about them.

and the american dollar dropping in value isnt going to help when the bill collectors come for their money. how much was that defecit again?


all hail poverty in first world countries

[BlueCat]

i dont have faith in my government. i never had faith in my government.


i have faith in the canadian people to do the right thing and not let our way of life be changed drastically unless we say so.

paul martin is a schmuck. the whole fucking parliament is turning into a bunch of fucks. i dont care and never did care about them.

and the american dollar dropping in value isnt going to help when the bill collectors come for their money. how much was that defecit again?


all hail poverty in first world countries


What did you think of Chretien?

[nicholasstanko]

What did you think of Chretien?


i didnt mind him all that much. but he seemed like a pretty cool guy and actually during his time in office canada was a whole lot different.

it actually seemed more peaceful and it felt really safe. now, a few years later we have dodgier areas and people are getting shot a whole lot more.
i blame that on immigration though...at least immigration with limited restrictions.


but back to chretien...i was only a punk teenager just a couple of years ago and so i wasnt really into politics. so he may or may not have sent canada down the path to armageddon. i've been busy with american current events which is pretty bad.


man, im an asshole


all hail perspective.

[BlueCat]

Well I thought Chretien was pretty cool.

I liked it when he told the Bush people he wasn't kisses anyones arse. lol :D

[Fengzi]

potatoes survived! Ok so I am still worried about espionage and motive. They are buying up the world but then so are we. I really want to talk more on this Fengzi
if you can calm my fears than more power to you! I even considered moving to China at one time so I am no way against China, but I worry about a communist government. Maybe when I know more China I won't be worried.
I need more answers but right now I gotta go eat dinner.....I'll ttyl.

How much do you know about Communism?

Communism as a theory or communism as it exists in China? Communism, as in Karl Marx's version where property is divided up equally, work is shared, and each gets according to his needs and does according to his abilities, does not exist in China. I don't know if it really truly existed anywhere. China certainly tried to make a go of it back in the 50's, 60's and early 70's, however. In fact my mother in law, the daughter of a Bourgeoisie landlord, was sent to a commune shortly after my wife was born so she could be re-educated among the laboring masses.

A lot has changed since then, however, and nothing resembling true communism exists in China today. Take a walk down Shanghai's Huai Hai Street with it's boutiques, cafes, and even Starbucks and you'd have no idea that you were in a "communist" country . Privately owned businesses are as common as State run businesses and some State run ones have even been sold off to private investors. Stores are filled with pricey Western goods and there seems to be no shortage of people buying them. People buy and sell stocks and, just like here, everyone's goal is to get rich.

China today is communist only in that it is run by the communist party. And that, is only a name, like Republican, Democrat, etc, nothing more. The government is not run by strange little men in Mao suits anymore. It is run by intelligent, generally respected, professional politicians. At least the high level, central, government is. It is not a dictatorship as that would imply it is run by one person when, in fact, decisions are made by many. There are both conservative and liberal factions within the government and control tends to go back and forth between the two groups.

Of course the people can not vote so there is no danger to the communist party of it ever losing power. Most people here in the U.S., however, would be surprised to see how much the general population actually influences the government. The government does not want to see unrest and protests like the incident in Tiananmen back in â??89. They understand that the best way to prevent this is to keep the people as happy as can be within the confines of the system. So, they pay close attention to public opinion and play a game where they let the leash out just enough to make people happy and then slowly bring it back in if needed. For the most part it works.

The biggest problem with the government is that it is filled with cronyism and corruption, especially at the lower levels. To make matters worse, China is a huge country with a poor infrastructure outside of the more modern cities on the eastern coast. Many, many cities in Chinaâ??s interior are quite remote, taking a day or more by bus to get to, and the central government in Beijing has little direct control in those areas. It is in these cities where the corruption is the worst . Many of the horror stories we hear about the Chinese government are actually from these areas, not the central government in Beijing itself. Kind of like if they had a story in one of their newspapers stating that American government supported marijuana use and gay marriages. While this may be true here in San Francisco that view isnâ??t held in Washington.

Hopefully this will have answered some of your questions. If you have any specific ones feel free to ask and Iâ??ll answer as best I can. And please donâ??t get me wrong, I have no illusions about China having a perfect government. There is a lot there that is seriously fucked up. Itâ??s just that I have just seen how the American media puts itâ??s spin on any story about China so that most Americanâ??s see China as an evil regime intent on turning the world commie. There are so many misconceptions about China and as we have recently seen certain misconceptions, such as about wmd, can have serious consequences.

[nicholasstanko]

Well I thought Chretien was pretty cool.

I liked it when he told the Bush people he wasn't kisses anyones arse. lol :D

for real!? he did that!?


aw man that is so cool. i thought only north korea had the balls to tell bush to fuck off.

[F L E S H]

What did you think of Chretien?
Chretien is pretty misunderstood, and under-rated. I think this is mainly because of his appearance and manner of speach: he speaks like an old french-canadian farmer, believe me, I've met a few :) However, the man is one of the cleverest politicians, at least in Canadian history.

And Paul Martin is indeed a big schmuck. I think the Liberals will probably lose the next election, which is a good thing even if the Conservatives win. Because no matter who it is, a party cannot be in power for almost 15 years and NOT have some form of corruption. The proof is that advertising scandal that's still not fully rsolved yet.

There's no doubt Chretien was in on the scam, but even deep down, on some level, it was a sort of noble cause, to help prevent Quebec separation.

[BlueCat]

Chretien is pretty misunderstood, and under-rated. I think this is mainly because of his appearance and manner of speach: he speaks like an old french-canadian farmer, believe me, I've met a few :) However, the man is one of the cleverest politicians, at least in Canadian history.

And Paul Martin is indeed a big schmuck. I think the Liberals will probably lose the next election, which is a good thing even if the Conservatives win. Because no matter who it is, a party cannot be in power for almost 15 years and NOT have some form of corruption. The proof is that advertising scandal that's still not fully rsolved yet.

There's no doubt Chretien was in on the scam, but even deep down, on some level, it was a sort of noble cause, to help prevent Quebec separation.

Chretien seems to be a good person from what I have read. I was living in Canada when he stepped down, I found it sad as Canada needed someone to stand up to US conservative pressures. I think Martin has sold out but then that feeling comes from watching CNBC.
I don't live in Canada now so I am out of touch.
What problems do you have with Martin?

[nicholasstanko]

Chretien seems to be a good person from what I have read. I was living in Canada when he stepped down, I found it sad as Canada needed someone to stand up to US conservative pressures. I think Martin has sold out but then that feeling comes from watching CNBC.
I don't live in Canada now so I am out of touch.
What problems do you have with Martin?

he bows way to easily to american pressure. i dont think it's due to being weak-kneed i think it's that corruption flesh was talking about.

the pharm. drugs issue for example. he did nothing major to stop it, even though alot of people said he should retaliate by cutting the u.s. natural oil exports. he didnt.


he's just a big "liberal" pussy.


all hail bad canadian politicians

[BlueCat]

All hail bad politics EVERYWHERE....did you ever read that BCCI affair paper? There are so many crooks out there it is hard to know who to beleive....

BCCI's criminality included fraud by BCCI and BCCI customers involving billions of dollars; money laundering in Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Americas; BCCI's bribery of officials in most of those locations; support of terrorism, arms trafficking, and the sale of nuclear technologies; management of prostitution; the commission and facilitation of income tax evasion, smuggling, and illegal immigration; illicit purchases of banks and real estate; and a panoply of financial crimes....

BCCI's systematically relied on relationships with, and as necessary, payments to, prominent political figures in most of the 73 countries in which BCCI operated. BCCI records and testimony from former BCCI officials together document BCCI's systematic securing of Central Bank deposits of Third World countries...

BCCI developed a plan to infiltrate the U.S. market through secretly purchasing U.S. banks while opening branch offices of BCCI throughout the U.S

It just gets deeper and deeper it is really an eye opening read and it is No Conspiracy theory it is a congressional investigation that has been proven to be true. The oil companies are invovled in this too. Surprise surprise

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/01exec.htm

[BlueCat]

Thanks for the informative post Fengzi. it is appreciated. :)

Some questions...."China today is communist only in that it is run by the communist party. And that, is only a name, like Republican, Democrat,"

Ok but Democrats and Republicans have an a set idealogy, the Chinese government still supposts the communist Idealogy doesn't it?
How has this changed?


Of course the people can not vote so there is no danger to the communist party of it ever losing power

This concerns me. ^

I really don't trust either government. I know that economic growth will help us to communicate better and in turn may help humanitarian issues but I don't think that will happen with our present day leaders because they won't even admit there is a problem....

[Fengzi]

Ok but Democrats and Republicans have an a set idealogy, the Chinese government still supposts the communist Idealogy doesn't it?
How has this changed?

Actually the current government does not support a communist ideology. I'm not sure how to describe their ideology but it isn't communist. Maybe nationalist but not really. The problem is that people here want to see Chinese communisn fall like it did in The Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. They want drama, to see walls being torn down, to see borders changed, etc. That's just not going to happen. What has happened is that Chinese communism has already fallen but rather than having an abrupt change it has happened gradually. Starting pretty much in 1978 when Deng Xiaoping came to power the government has gradually been reforming itself. It is now so differnet that the government, and its ideology, bears very little resemblance to that of Mao's day. This is why, although most people here see Deng Xiaoping as the evil villian behind the Tiananmen Square crackdown, most Chinese actually revere him as the father of "modern China".

I really don't trust either government. I know that economic growth will help us to communicate better and in turn may help humanitarian issues but I don't think that will happen with our present day leaders because they won't even admit there is a problem....

I agree that it would be better if the Chinese people had some direct say in how the government is run. From what I have seen, however, most Chinese have little interest in participating in the government at all. I think that a lot of this is due to the fact that they simply don't know any other way. It's hard to miss what you've never experienced. Of course I'm basing this on people who I know personally, most of which are well educated, successful, and reasonably wealthy for Chinese standards. For these people life is good so why rock the boat?

On the humanitarian issues there is a lot that does bother me. We have to realize, however, that our opinions about what are basic human rights are based on our value system and beliefs. We are a terribly ethnocentric society and would like to think that all Chinese would love to have the rights that we do but this isn't neccessarily true. In fact, many are quite insulted by our criticism of their lack of rights. They feel we have far too many rights which has resulted in high crime and a lack of moral character. This is similar to an article I was reading a while back on Singapore, also pretty low on the rights ladder, where they did a survey asking if the people there would like more rights. While nearly all said yes, when given a choice of no change or change to every right given to Americans nearly all said no change. There's an interesting book called Human Rights and Chinese Values that you might want to read sometime that discusses this issue.

If you get the chance to teach in China again I'd highly recommend it. I actually taught for a while when I was there and its a great opportunity to talk with people from many different walks of life. Most people are pretty open and don't hold anything back. If nothing else its a great chance to see how another culture lives.

[nicholasstanko]

Ok but Democrats and Republicans have an a set idealogy, the Chinese government still supposts the communist Idealogy doesn't it?
How has this changed?

Actually the current government does not support a communist ideology. I'm not sure how to describe their ideology but it isn't communist. Maybe nationalist but not really. The problem is that people here want to see Chinese communisn fall like it did in The Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. They want drama, to see walls being torn down, to see borders changed, etc. That's just not going to happen. What has happened is that Chinese communism has already fallen but rather than having an abrupt change it has happened gradually. Starting pretty much in 1978 when Deng Xiaoping came to power the government has gradually been reforming itself. It is now so differnet that the government, and its ideology, bears very little resemblance to that of Mao's day. This is why, although most people here see Deng Xiaoping as the evil villian behind the Tiananmen Square crackdown, most Chinese actually revere him as the father of "modern China".

I really don't trust either government. I know that economic growth will help us to communicate better and in turn may help humanitarian issues but I don't think that will happen with our present day leaders because they won't even admit there is a problem....

I agree that it would be better if the Chinese people had some direct say in how the government is run. From what I have seen, however, most Chinese have little interest in participating in the government at all. I think that a lot of this is due to the fact that they simply don't know any other way. It's hard to miss what you've never experienced. Of course I'm basing this on people who I know personally, most of which are well educated, successful, and reasonably wealthy for Chinese standards. For these people life is good so why rock the boat?

On the humanitarian issues there is a lot that does bother me. We have to realize, however, that our opinions about what are basic human rights are based on our value system and beliefs. We are a terribly ethnocentric society and would like to think that all Chinese would love to have the rights that we do but this isn't neccessarily true. In fact, many are quite insulted by our criticism of their lack of rights. They feel we have far too many rights which has resulted in high crime and a lack of moral character. This is similar to an article I was reading a while back on Singapore, also pretty low on the rights ladder, where they did a survey asking if the people there would like more rights. While nearly all said yes, when given a choice of no change or change to every right given to Americans nearly all said no change. There's an interesting book called Human Rights and Chinese Values that you might want to read sometime that discusses this issue.

If you get the chance to teach in China again I'd highly recommend it. I actually taught for a while when I was there and its a great opportunity to talk with people from many different walks of life. Most people are pretty open and don't hold anything back. If nothing else its a great chance to see how another culture lives.


im dreaming...two people actually went into the politics forum and managed to have respectful courteous debate :eek:

it's been a while.... :(




all hail respect

[BlueCat]

Thank you so much Fengzi... I would like to hear more about your teaching job.

I will look for "Human Rights and Chinese Values".....

You have calmed a few fears...thanks :)

[nicholasstanko]

Thank you so much Fengzi... I would like to hear more about your teaching job.

I will look for "Human Rights and Chinese Values".....

You have calmed a few fears...thanks :)

and so the story ends...what lies in store for our valiant heroes next?
catch us for the next episode of dragon ball z...i mean political events.


keep up the great posts you two. it was a good read.


all hail mutual education.