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pisshead
07-06-2005, 12:52 AM
i saw video of Ridge on c-span a few years ago saying that all americans will have national id cards with 4 different ratings...you will need them to have jobs and there will be different security clearances for everyone based on credit ratings and other stuff...

this is the ultimate in freedom. i'm surprised this wasn't in the constitution. homeland security loves you.

No ID Card, No Job
UK Government To Fund Scheme By Forcing Employers To Pay For Background Check

UK Register | July 5 2005 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/05/id_laundry_analysis/)

Growing public concern over the cost of ID cards forced price concessions of sorts from Home Secretary Charles Clarke last week, but these leave the Home Office facing the prospect of an ever-widening money hole as the total cost of the scheme climbs. On the basis of the current cost estimates of £93 for passport and card, and £20-30 for a standalone card a hole probably exists already, and we're beginning to see clues as to how the Home Office proposes to plug it - it will do so via a cost laundering system we'll be seeing a lot more of as the scheme progresses.

On the morning of last week's Commons debate on ID cards, which the Government won with a reduced majority, Clarke indicated to BBC's Today programme that the Government would be developing sources for income for the ID scheme. "The question of what the charging regime would actually be depends on how much income we bring in from other sources and other departments," he said. Significantly, he had earlier cited Criminal Records Bureau checks as an example of how useful ID cards would be. During the debate itself he elaborated on this: "The actual charge will be determined by the Government at the time of introduction, depending on the business plan for the card's introduction. It will include, first, the cost of producing the card following the tender process; secondly, it will include the income in respect of driving licences or the Criminal Records Bureau, for example, which we could use to deal with the costs associated with the card." Spookily, although the Criminal Records Bureau hadn't figured anywhere obvious in the Government's ID plans until last week, at his Wednesday press conference Tony Blair piped up: "Just to give you another example, for the Criminal Records Bureau, which after all hundreds of thousands of people have to go through the whole time [what, like Sisyphus? - Ed], it takes something like four weeks to do an identity check, it would take three days with an identity card."

Blair did not explain why an identity check would still take three days in the brave new world of online biometrics, while for Today Clarke confined himself to saying it would reduce the time dramatically. The point however is that the CRB has popped into some wonk's head as both a useful source of income and a shotgun evangelist for the ID scheme. Those looking for a job in a school might well contemplate previous delays and difficulties in getting clearance through the CRB, and consider the ID card a bargain. Schools, whether they want to pay for ID card checks or not, won't have a lot of choice once potential employees start presenting them as ID.

One is drawn to the conclusion that Blair and Clarke's sudden deployment of the CRB in their case is not entirely unconnected with the need to pay for the ID scheme. The CRB would be a small but steady source, but the size of the revenue stream could possibly be increased simply by widening the requirement for employers to make Criminal Record Checks. Similarly, employers' requirement to check employment eligibility will produce revenue and stimulate ID card uptake. Employers won't be able to demand an ID card until they're compulsory, but potential employees may well find it a lot easier to get a job if they fall in with the system. And previous Home Secretary David Blunkett, in a speech last autumn, made it clear that once the ID card existed he would see little justification for employers to fail to use it to meet their legal requirements.

Clarke's reference to "income in respect of driving licences" is also interesting. According to Blair "people are already looking at, for example, whether it is not possible to get some of the information you need for your driving licence and this type of thing by use of the identity card", so although it won't be permissible for organisations to require production of an ID card until they're compulsory, here also we could have a case where things happen faster with an ID card, and the ID scheme gains revenue through their increased use. Blair's wording is characteristically fuzzy, but we could possibly interpret "get some of the information you need for your driving licence" as implying a series of database links being used to assemble the components of a licence application.

In the real world, of course, things won't necessarily happen faster with an ID card. Considering the Government's track record (the CRB being a particularly grisly example) the promises of greater speed and efficiency remain open to some doubt; but remember we're talking about where the Government thinks it can squeeze money here, not about where it's actually going to. And the spectacular delays in past CRB record checks were not entirely unconnected with the Government's inability to manage database systems effectively; this has not however stopped Blair and Clarke using the historical mess as an argument in favour of their (probably imaginary) super-efficient future.

Although the Government hasn't been specific about the income from "other departments" it must now have a pretty clear idea which departments are going to have to contribute, if not about the precise levels of contribution. Some charges can be absorbed by the individual departments, while others can be passed on directly to the public (which is paying all of them anyway, one way or another), but there are areas where direct charges may be politically difficult. Charging people for dying, for example, might not be popular, but nevertheless we can't altogether rule it out. As far as Government departments are concerned, one can envisage the National Identity Register as acting as a kind of gatekeeper deriving an income per transaction, while the consequent increasing 'popularity' of the ID scheme will mean the number of transactions will steadily increase.

On the evidence of Blair's press conference, the Government may also be looking at online services as a potential source of income, despite the fact that a biometric ID card isn't a lot of use online. The Government did however rule out the inclusion of a digital signature in the card on the grounds of cost in the entitlement consultation, so unless this has changed, the only way the card could operate online is by use of a pin number. According to Blair, "at the moment if you want to get your medical records online, you can't because of worries over identity. You would be able to do that" with an ID card, he said. He failed to explain how you would be able to do that, but his bringing the subject up suggests that the Government is considering tying online health record access to ID cards. Without further development specifically aimed at online identification, the ID card at them moment would have to use a pin number, and is about as secure as a credit card (or less so - if you're going to have a card stolen, which would you prefer, ID card or credit card?).

The contribution of private industry, Clarke's "other sources", is less clear, and during last week's debate Clarke, stressing that information on the NIR would not be for sale, placed limits on what could be done. "With the consent of the identity card holder - I emphasise that - banks or other approved businesses will be able to verify identity by checking an ID card against the national identity register," he said. "That would mainly involve confirming that the card is valid and has not been reported lost or stolen, and that the information shown on it is correct. The card holder's biometric details may also - with the card holder's consent - be confirmed against those held on the register."

These are not however limitations that need greatly impact the ID scheme's ability to make money from the private sector. If NIR checks prove valuable for, say, financial service providers, then they will require customers to give them permission in their application forms. And ultimately the service providers may not have a choice. The Government has stated at various times that it feels ID card reading capability could be built into future generations of credit card reader and ATM. This is not a prospect likely to attract the banks and credit card companies right now, because from their point of view the current chip and pin system provides an adequate balance of convenience and security, and ID cards would simply introduce an extra complication. A simple local check of the validity of the card wouldn't establish the bearer's identity (it could be somebody else's credit and ID card and might convey a false sense of security to retailers), while online checks of biometrics would likely lead to false refusals, and thus reduced trade (and at the ATM, could raise the prospect of severed fingers).

But although the financial and retail sector is not going to volunteer for ID cards, there are areas where it could plausibly be volunteered. ID theft, which in this case is largely what we used to call credit card fraud, impacts on the individuals whose card/identity is stolen far more than it does on the credit card companies, so the public's concerns about ID theft could be harnessed to impose proof of ID requirements on the credit card industry. And once ID cards exist and are widely carried, the Blunkett principle that they constitute a simple and secure method for establishing ID, and therefore there's no excuse not to demand them, might be extended to retail. A legal requirement for proof of ID for transactions over a certain value could be implemented in the name of combating card fraud.

Not all of this will happen immediately, but the pressing and growing need to finance the ID scheme while keeping the cost of the card down to politically acceptable levels will mean that the Government will strive hard to establish revenue sources early on in the scheme. From the point of view of the individual, though, a card cost of 'only' £30 will be nothing to cheer about. Other costs incurred by Government will be paid for via direct transaction charges and taxation, while the involuntary contributions made by industry will be passed on to the consumer. Economically speaking, if the ID scheme does not deliver savings and efficiencies to match its overall cost (which could quite easily exceed £20 billion), then we will be sucking a huge amount of money that would have been better spent on wealth creation out of the economy. 'Only' £30 indeed...

Clarkewatch: In his ongoing suicide mission (he's a sort of suicide bullshitter) to 'prove' that Government IT projects are not pants, and do in fact deliver the goods, Clarke used the Passport Office, which is now apparently delivering something close to what one might call a service, as an example. And then he cited the successful rollout of chip and pin. We could point that the latter, a networked megaproject, was carried out by private industry, but you no doubt spotted that yourself. What interests us more, however, is that on previous outings for the suicide mission Clarke had trotted out Airwave, the 'on time, on budget' secure digital communications system for the UK police.

At the time we thought it a little cheeky to claim a system that had severe rollout problems and remained crap at data as a successful IT project, and as Clarke's dropped this from his list of achievements it's possible somebody has had a word. However, evidence that Airwave remains crap at data is provided by Northamptonshire police's pilot of mobile fingerprint readers in conjunction with Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) systems. Here, if your number plate leads police to make further enquiries, they ask you to 'voluntarily' undergo a fingerprint check against the police database using mobile fingerprint recognition. The systems Northampton deployed, however, used, er, GPRS. But there seem to have been a few problems anyway... Clarke, in any event, can't even get the message across to the rest of the Cabinet. Surveying the wreckage of the new environmental stewardship scheme, Environment Secretary Margaret Beckett says: "Tell me an IT scheme in the Government or the private sector that has been introduced without problems." Oops.

What price an ID scheme?
Charles Clarke, Tony Blair and sundry other Government representatives have rubbished claims, based on the London School of Economics report, that the price of a card could be £300. On the day after the Commons debate, Blair himself said that "some of these figures bandied around about cost are absolutely absurd, I mean no Government is going to start introducing something that is going to cost hundreds of pounds for people, that would be ridiculous." Which indeed it would be, and Mr Tony might have added that, should his Government propose such a thing, its members would swiftly find themselves suspended from lampposts along Whitehall. But we should contemplate the nature of the absurdity of the £300, and what must be done to achieve the £30 that the desperate characters in the Home Office are pretty close to nailing to the mast.

The origin of the £300 was the report of the London School of Economics Identity Project, but as we noted last week, the LSE estimates the total cost of the scheme, and points out that if the Government were to stick to Treasury requirements that the scheme be self-financing, then the public would have to be charged up to £300 each. The LSE did not point out the obvious, that anybody attempting to charge this would be strung up, and the ensuing headlines screamed that costs could double or treble. The real story (which we accept would have been a little less likely to grab public attention) was however that if even the lowest LSE estimate was in the right ballpark the Government's public statements on the financing of the ID scheme did not add up. The report, incidentally, also makes a pretty persuasive case for the Government's current estimates (£5.8 billion being the latest we've sighted) erring badly on the optimistic side. For example, although the requirements for the capability of the technology used have increased since the entitlement card scheme was floated, in several cases the claimed costs of equipment (e.g. readers) have decreased since the entitlement card estimates were issued.

In any event, although the £300 scare was helpful in putting the spotlight onto cost, it also allowed the Government to shift the argument at the time of the Commons debate over to card cost. It will now be calculating that if it can hold the card cost at £30, the public will accept a new passport cost of £93 (despite passport cost having virtually tripled over recent years), heaving sighs of relief that it's not being hit for £200 or £300. This shifted attention away from the total cost again, and in rubbishing the £300 the Government was thus able to avoid addressing the LSE's real points, which are rather more difficult to rubbish.

Scheme cost estimates are covered in the LSE report from page 225 on, and use Home Office consultation documents, ID Bill regulatory impact assessments and Passport Office business plans as sources. The Passport Office plans in particular are useful, and it's clear from these that this particular department is effectively taking the lead in ID scheme implementation (we hope to return to the Passport Office's Personal Information Project, relation, at some future date). The report references the source documents liberally, which means that in those instances where Clarke has rubbished specific figures in the LSE report, he has arguably been rubbishing his own officials.

For example, Clarke has cited the LSE's suggestion that cards would have to be replaced every five years, rather than ten, and made the mathematically illiterate claim that this automatically doubles overall cost. But as its source here the LSE cites the entitlement card consultation document, which differentiates between smartcards and cards with a smart chip, and says the latter would need replacing twice in a ten year period. The cost figures in this consultation put the cost of a smartcard at £3.50 and a chip card at £5. The consultation numbers, says the LSE, add up to a card cost of £240 million over ten years for a plain plastic card, £670 million for a smartcard reissued once over the period, and £2007 million for a sophisticated smartcard (of the kind Clarke is proposing) reissued twice. The Passport Office business plan also suggests that with biometric passports it may be necessary to renew passports every five years, rather than the current ten.

The Government also seems over-optimistic on the cost of readers. In the entitlement consulatation, the LSE notes, the Government "originally envisaged a far simpler scanning system than that used by the police or immigration service, originally considering the scanning of four fingers only." These prints would not have been scanned to a legal standard of proof of identity, so the equipment could be cheaper and staff would not need to be as highly trained in interpretation as police or immigration service staff. But the Government has subsequently said that it does intend to use the NIR fingerprint database to check scene of crime prints, so logically the costs associated with readers should have gone up.

The entitlements consultation however envisaged 2,000 sets of equipment costing £10,000 each, while the ID Card Bill Regulatory Impact Statement puts the cost of readers at £250-£750. This quite possibly factors in some wishful thinking about a far larger number of readers resulting in lower unit costs, however as ministers have recently claimed that the use of three biometrics (fingerprint, facial, iris) will mean the error rate will be extremely low, the cost of 'tri-band' readers should perhaps also be factored in.

Other Government sources tend to support the LSE. The ever-watchful Spyblog recently unearthed some signposts to true reader costs, flagging a piece of scheme cost laundering while it was about it. The RIA for the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill puts the cost of the initial deployment of biometric passport and visa readers as £3-5,000 per reader plus the cost of a PC, plus £21,000 for the computer network cabling. The latter is clearly a one-off cost per location, so it's an initial deployment hit the 47 main airports and ports will only have to bear once, but it's also a cost that is likely to be incurred at most of the other sites where an online verification capability is required. As much of this expenditure will be absorbed by other departments via their IT budgets, or incurred by major financial institutions and ID verification third parties, little if any of it will ever be accounted for under ID scheme costs. One might also speculate about the costs of whatever it is the new cabling at ports connects to, and who's paying for that - unhelpfully, the RIA seems not to mention this bit.

The actual costs incurred in association with the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill will be shouldered by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate, and will ultimately be a lot higher than those specified in the RIA, which states:
" Currently there are 47 major ports of entry and an average of 20 desks per location. Due to the staged implementation of biometric identifiers in passports, ports will only have a relatively small percentage of arrivals with biometrically enabled passports. Initially, we may only provide one reader per port. However, as biometrically enabled passports become more common we will increase the numbers of readers per port accordingly. If every desk at every port were to have a reader, Border Control would have to deploy the biometric solution at 940 desks at airports, seaports and the Juxtaposed Control."

It's difficult to get your head around the logistics of the planned 'one per port' initial deployment. Initially the RIA anticipates there may be two readers per port, one handling biometric passports and one handling biometric visas. It is true that numbers for passports will initially be quite small, but once the major economies are starting to ship biometric passports, the number will be ramping fast as old passports expire. European travellers whose passports could be read biometrically will therefore be coming into the UK in fairly large volumes in fairly short order. Biometric visas are intended to be issued to all visitors requiring visas within the next couple of years, and they will therefore constitute a very large volume, very soon.

So what on earth do the loves propose to do with the one appropriate reader available? Clearly it will not be a case of scanning all of the people with biometric passports or visas (try this at Waterloo or when the morning flight from Frankfurt comes into Heathrow), and the machines will be used purely to deal with those 'randomly stopped' or who have aroused the suspicions of immigration staff.* This does not differ greatly from the system as it currently stands. Also note that the RIA appears ("one [reader] for biometrically enabled ID cards") to view visa and ID card readers as the same thing, and therefore to envisage reading ID cards at ports of entry. So perhaps UK citizens could, like other EU citizens, travel within the EU on an ID card, no passport required. The Register has floated this notion before, and soon we may be told.

More broadly, the LSE attempts to nail down major areas of Government cost underestimation in the Cost Projections (Chapter 17, page 241) of its report. Aside from areas we've covered here already, the cost of the National Identity Register and integration costs are likely to be the most substantial additions. The LSE points out that there are clear parallels between the proposed NIR and the NHS spine, but that the former (for obvious reasons, we are continuing to avoid, with a growing sense of futility, calling it "The Register") will involve "greater complexity and must embrace more rigorous security measures. It must also incorporate biometrics - something that we believe will be a technological challenge far greater than the Government has anticipated." The LSE group has therefore put the cost of the NIR at between two and four times the contract price of the NHS spine.

This is one of the most dramatic and potentially contentious variations between the LSE costing and the Government ones. The LSE's reasoning however seems sound; according what's written on the tin, it is more complex and challenging than the NHS spine. So, if this is not reflected in its claimed total tab for ID scheme, the Government needs to explain either why the cost is lower, or where in the Government's IT budgets it is reflected.

Oddly enough, although the LSE's minimum cost estimate is approximately double the Government's most recent estimates, given the existence of some kind of cost-laundering iceberg beneath the visible aspects of the Government estimate, the real numbers might not be that different. If, somewhere within the Government, someone is tallying up the total cost of the scheme and all its related components, then the big number would quite probably fall within the LSE range of £10.6-£19.2 billion). Given how career-threatening such a tallying exercise might be, we very much doubt that anybody's doing it. But if you think about it, it's exactly what the Government should be doing, then putting the facts before the country and Parliament before embarking on such a scheme. As opposed to the current approach of "capping" card cost at "only" £30, and avoiding telling anybody, probably including themselves, what it will all really cost. ®

* Borderwatch We at The Register take an understandable interest in developments in what really happens at UK border checkpoints, the Eurostar London to Paris run being particularly fascinating, given the quantity of shouting about illegal immigrants on this route there was a few years back. Recently we observed at Paris that the UK checkpoint had started putting the machine readable section of the passport into a reader (well done chaps, even if it has taken you nigh-on 20 years to start), but that only the French post used a forgery detector. At Waterloo incoming practically everyone on the train was waved through without a check, so we're clearly banking on nobody screwing up at the Paris end. In the other direction, no UK official at all even asked for a passport, but there was a nice new checkpoint checking them, again using a forgery detector. It was operated by... the French. No doubt they're telling us how many of our terrorists are leaving the country.

Public contributions There's more than one way for the general public to contribute to the cost of the ID scheme. You can shut up and pay your taxes, thus helping meet the cost of the scheme, and you can contribute to the cost of the scheme by making it higher. The LSE (hinting, perhaps, at the institution's glorious past) deems non-cooperation as a potential cost, and suggests that one "dedicated non-cooperator", working "strategically and systematically can, quite feasibly, exhaust 200 hours of administration time through the generation of queries, appeals, access requests, database modifications and general civil disobedience." At time of writing the No2ID pledge to refuse an ID card was closing fast on its target of 10,000 signatories, which could mean an awful lot of time-consuming civil disobedience. Click below to nudge it over the 10k, of you haven't signed up already.

http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse (http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse)

seattle420
07-09-2005, 07:08 PM
the mark of the beast.

read about this in the lyrics of reggae great PREZIDENT BROWN in the song
"the head of the stream"

http://www.jahmanipro.com/lyrics/lyrics_headofthestream.htm

stoner spirit
07-09-2005, 10:02 PM
That's crazy but true.

root
07-10-2005, 01:26 AM
Very soon all of us will be forced to have a ID card. Their is no dought about it.
The goverment will say this is to stop a terrorist or any one they consider
a threat into the country. This is not all about stopping a terroist or
stopping a threat to the country.
It's about total control of the people of that country
This is Bullshit!.
The only problem with the card is that it can be lost or stolen or coppied.
So not to far into the furture instead of a card
the Goverment will have an ID microchip inplanted in your hand or forehead.
This chip will have all your info programed into it.
Most likely it will have a G.P.S. locator device too.
With out this chip you will not be able to buy food, get a job, receive medical help
or travel and much more!
If you phone in sick form your home, your employer can type in your ID code
and a satillite will pin point your location down to the squard foot.
Your not sick. Your at a bar or at the beach! your fired! Off to a labor
camp you go! No trial, no appeal. You are gone!
You may laugh now at what I'm saying. But it's coming down now people!!
Any one with a pet dog or cat can have a ID chip implanted in their
pet's leg today. Just go down to your local vet that has the chip in stock.
This is THE MARK OF THE BEAST!. As said in the Bible.
You will be marked, or you will be put into a labour camp (DEATH CAMP).
Were you will conform to the will of the Goverment or pay the price.
This price is YOUR FREE WILL OR YOUR LIFE!
Welcome all.
Welcome to the beginning of darkness.
This darkness is called
THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!

pisshead
07-10-2005, 03:22 AM
you're all wrong. alex jones made up the whole id card thing, they don't exist, and no one has introduced them ever or ever even though about it.

they will keep you all safe from the freedom hating terrorists. like they kept spain safe, and like the millions of cameras kept england safe.

of course i'm being sarcastic. IBM loves us as much as they loved the jews in nazi germany.

root
07-10-2005, 05:06 AM
That's were your wrong pisshead!
Right how the Canadian goverment are making these ID cards.
There testing right now to see now well they hold up.
And the U.S. goverment are watching us very closely on this one.
By law I have to carry some form of ID on me when I leave my home
This is in case I get knock out in some mishap.
#1 driver's licence
#2 Social Insurance Number (S.I.N)
#3 Birth Certificate
#4 Health card
#5 Hospital card
#5 You don't really need it. it's just there so the hospital can pull your file up quickly.
All these card's I have will be put on to one card with a microchip inbeded in the card it's self. Just like a prepaid phone card's
Just place the card in a scanner and all the info on me is their for the reading.
The card will be out with in the next 5 years and I have to have it or
#1 No Driver's Licence
#2 No Social Insurance Number
#3 No Birth Certificate
#4 No Health Card
Why spend all that money on all those card's when the goverment can only make one card that has everthing on it.
Like I said the U.S. Goverment are watching this one very closely. And if it work's
and it will the people of the U.S.A. will be getting one also like it or not!
Wellcome Pisshead
Wellcome to
THE NEW WORLD ORDER!

Marlboroman
07-10-2005, 05:23 AM
That's were your wrong pisshead!
Right how the Canadian goverment are making these ID cards.
There testing right now to see now well they hold up.
And the U.S. goverment are watching us very closely on this one.
By law I have to carry some form of ID on me when I leave my home
This is in case I get knock out in some mishap.
#1 driver's licence
#2 Social Insurance Number (S.I.N)
#3 Birth Certificate
#4 Health card
#5 Hospital card
#5 You don't really need it. it's just there so the hospital can pull your file up quickly.
All these card's I have will be put on to one card with a microchip inbeded in the card it's self. Just like a prepaid phone card's
Just place the card in a scanner and all the info on me is their for the reading.
The card will be out with in the next 5 years and I have to have it or
#1 No Driver's Licence
#2 No Social Insurance Number
#3 No Birth Certificate
#4 No Health Card
Why spend all that money on all those card's when the goverment can only make one card that has everthing on it.
Like I said the U.S. Goverment are watching this one very closely. And if it work's
and it will the people of the U.S.A. will be getting one also like it or not!
Wellcome Pisshead
Wellcome to
THE NEW WORLD ORDER!


PH was being sarcastic.

root
07-10-2005, 05:35 AM
I know PH was being sarcastic about it. But this is what is going down in Canada
right now. Like it or not!
This does suck but I can't do nothing about it!
shit!!

ermitonto
07-10-2005, 10:15 AM
Let's just all burn them.

nicholasstanko
07-10-2005, 02:30 PM
So how come we just dont riot? the chinese and the japanese are getting agitated and they threatened to riot. why do we always make believe these things are way over our head? im not saying lets get together for an anarchy meeting but lets not kid ourselves thinking that the government always has the last say.

pisshead
07-10-2005, 03:41 PM
they want people to riot...that's why they're buliding up a giant police state while training the police to be militarized and to engage the population...

this can be defeated peacefully...as long as people wake up to government sponsored terrorism, that trick can't be used...the people will know who stands to gain and who's perpetrating the big terror attacks...and it will cease to work.

people just need to take a real hard look at exactly which direction this country is going, no matter which fake side gets a puppet installed.

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." ---Thomas Jefferson

ermitonto
07-10-2005, 10:51 PM
people just need to take a real hard look at exactly which direction this country is going, no matter which fake side gets a puppet installed.

I agree completely. Too many people in this country have their head so far shoved up their asses not to be able to see through Bush's veil, or not to be able to see that Kerry wouldn't have done much different (he supported the American terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq after all). The idea that politicians routinely lie to us in this country is so common that it's become cliché. And when we continually catch them lying, we continue to support them! How many different excuses has the Bush administration had for these wars? And how many of them have been exposed as clear and utter bullshit? It seems we gave up finding Osama for overthrowing the Taliban (which, after a brief look at the history books, it was discovered that we put in power in the first place). We gave up finding Iraq's WMDs for destroying an ally of Al-Qaeda. When we found out Iraq wasn't one, we had to overthrow Saddam just because he's an Evil Freedom-Hating Dictator? (even though there continue to be many other countries without oil run by oppressive dictatorships that we frankly don't seem to give two shits about, and then there's Saudi Arabia which does have oil but they're nice to America and sell it lots of oil so their dictatorship is good).

I will not carry a card for liars. I am burning mine.

Psycho4Bud
07-10-2005, 11:02 PM
American terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq? :confused:

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 12:05 AM
Yes, didn't you notice how the US is killing all sorts of innocent civilians, I mean, "collateral damage", to accomplish political goals, through such techniques as "shock and awe" (i.e. blow shit up to make them afraid)? I think that's the definition of terrorism.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 01:55 AM
Yes, didn't you notice how the US is killing all sorts of innocent civilians, I mean, "collateral damage", to accomplish political goals, through such techniques as "shock and awe" (i.e. blow shit up to make them afraid)? I think that's the definition of terrorism.

It's funny you mention terrorism since that is the leading cause of death in Iraq today...not Iraqis rebelling...but outside terrorists from all different countries.
As for the "Shock and Awe", 800 guided missles in two days with military, power, and water as key points of attack. Not civilian! WW2 was a war of civilian death, Korea, Vietnam....we're in the age of smart bombs...could have been alot worse for the civilians 20 years ago.
Maybe if good ol' Sadamm didn't put civilians around crucial areas there wouldn't have been the death toll.

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 03:44 AM
So just because they try to minimize the number of civilian deaths, it's okay. That's like saying the ETA isn't terrorist because they alert the buildings they put bombs in so people can evacuate before they go off. And if you're attacking their power and water sources, well, that's pretty clearly terrorism as well, since people can't live without water, and a hospital without power is pretty ineffective. If I put bombs into American power and water stations, that would be considered terrorism. But when the US military does it to a country full of brown people, somehow it isn't? You're just killing them indirectly, which isn't any more justifiable.

Arioch
07-11-2005, 03:46 AM
Psycho4Bud, you say terrorism in Iraq is from outsiders from different countries, but many Iraqis believe that it's their Sunni countrymen - former members of Saddam's regime - that are mainly responsible. So what evidence is there?

You also assert that none of our targets were civilian during the Shock and Awe invasion - that is simply not true - there were civilian targets included in the destruction of Iraq's infrastructure. I know of at least one such civilian building that was deliberately targeted.

- sorry to drop in out of the blue, but I have been reading this board for a while, and had to say something on this subject. I tend to be pretty skeptical about things, so I try to find primary sources, like what the Iraqi people themselves have to say about terrorism. The second thing I asserted - about civilian targets - is from a firsthand account, from a person too close to me to doubt. I'm not saying the U.S. deliberately targeted civilians, but there were non-military targets that could have had civil servants in the building just doing their jobs when it was bombed.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:09 AM
Psycho4Bud, you say terrorism in Iraq is from outsiders from different countries, but many Iraqis believe that it's their Sunni countrymen - former members of Saddam's regime - that are mainly responsible. So what evidence is there?

You also assert that none of our targets were civilian during the Shock and Awe invasion - that is simply not true - there were civilian targets included in the destruction of Iraq's infrastructure. I know of at least one such civilian building that was deliberately targeted.

- sorry to drop in out of the blue, but I have been reading this board for a while, and had to say something on this subject. I tend to be pretty skeptical about things, so I try to find primary sources, like what the Iraqi people themselves have to say about terrorism. The second thing I asserted - about civilian targets - is from a firsthand account, from a person too close to me to doubt. I'm not saying the U.S. deliberately targeted civilians, but there were non-military targets that could have had civil servants in the building just doing their jobs when it was bombed.

Alot of the bombings does come from the Sunnis but I believe they target more of the Iraqi military and Police than random car bombings...etc... Remember, one of the main points of Zarqawis letter to Bin Laden was that a civil war between the Sunnis and Shi'ites was their last effort. Something like the Shi'ites were dogs and Sunnis were dumb enough to be led.

SOME civil targets were part of Shock and Awe and is was to destroy the infrastructure. Part of the plan to basically destroy the Sunni moral. It's not like what is being implied that we levelled towns and villages.

Innocent people did die but what other choice was there. Hell, the U.N. would have eventually lifted sanctions if France, Russia, Germany, and China had their way. Then what?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:12 AM
So just because they try to minimize the number of civilian deaths, it's okay. That's like saying the ETA isn't terrorist because they alert the buildings they put bombs in so people can evacuate before they go off. And if you're attacking their power and water sources, well, that's pretty clearly terrorism as well, since people can't live without water, and a hospital without power is pretty ineffective. If I put bombs into American power and water stations, that would be considered terrorism. But when the US military does it to a country full of brown people, somehow it isn't? You're just killing them indirectly, which isn't any more justifiable.

Well, maybe we should have gave Sadamm the nuke he always wanted and his sons some school girls to rape. What is the brink you have to be brought to in order to save, lets say, the Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites from genocide? Or is it a matter as long as France, Germany, Russia, and China are getting theres, who gives a fuck? :confused:

Arioch
07-11-2005, 04:39 AM
So freedom is messy? And we had no choice? We had a choice to support Saddam or not back in the 80's; we had a choice whether we were going to take him out during Desert Storm, and all through the 90's. We've had a lot of choices along the way, and I think our government has made a lot of poor choices. I'm glad Saddam's out, but I'm sad that things are so "messy" right now. You know what would be really pre-emptive? To quit supporting rightwing dictators before they get out of hand.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:48 AM
So freedom is messy? And we had no choice? We had a choice to support Saddam or not back in the 80's; we had a choice whether we were going to take him out during Desert Storm, and all through the 90's. We've had a lot of choices along the way, and I think our government has made a lot of poor choices. I'm glad Saddam's out, but I'm sad that things are so "messy" right now. You know what would be really pre-emptive? To quit supporting rightwing dictators before they get out of hand.

Agreed, politics again! Saddam didn't only have our support but also the support of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan. They were ALL afraid of the new Iranian regimes thoughts of marching across the middle east until they finally reached their directive of pushing Israel out to the sea. Thats where alot of the "disputed debt" comes from with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. What they were giving as "military aid" at the time to Iraq they are NOW calling loans.
Most of the middle east giving Saddam money to buy our weapons to kill hostile Iranians. What a wonderful world!

Arioch
07-11-2005, 04:54 AM
oops - I'm off the topic of ID cards - root, did you say by law you have to carry some form of ID in Canada? If so, what's the penalty for not having any?

If it come down to it, is there any on this board that would happily accept an ID chip implanted in them?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:54 AM
Desert Storm was a political move also. As you remember, the coallition consisted of not only western countries but middle eastern as well. After Saddam was ousted from Kuwait and the news had dead Iraqis all over it every day; the middle eastern allies stressed that the initiative was to get Saddam out of Kuwait, not overthrow Saddams government and allow "western infidels" to march across some of the most sacred grounds of the middle east. Bush senior said MMMMMK!

Arioch
07-11-2005, 05:07 AM
We do have a point of agreement here, and I recognize that the decision in Desert Storm was political. Likewise in Serbia. Our Air Force wanted to use surgical strikes against the Serbs, but that was nixed by NATO. The result was massacres in Muslim villages. So it seems like the "collateral damage" was going to happen one way or another. Sounds like the definition of war ...

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 06:11 AM
Well, maybe we should have gave Sadamm the nuke he always wanted and his sons some school girls to rape. What is the brink you have to be brought to in order to save, lets say, the Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites from genocide? Or is it a matter as long as France, Germany, Russia, and China are getting theres, who gives a fuck? :confused:

For one, it's hypocritical for the country with the most nuclear destructive power to condemn another country for wanting nukes. If we want to stop the deadly potential of nukes, we should start with the countries which currently have them. Maybe when the US government gets rid of its HUMONGOUS collection of weapons of mass destruction, will I take it seriously when it says it wants to eliminate that threat from the planet. There was no evidence of nukes or a nuke about to be made when we went into Iraq. Even in a hypothetical world where he had WMDs, do you think he would actually try to use them, knowing fully well how much the US could kick his ass? And if you think the best way to stop a genocide is by bombing their water and power sources, I don't know what to say. You want to save the Kurds from repression? Generate support for the Kurdistan independence movement, send some snipers over to kill anyone known to be involved with genocide, take violations of international law to the appropriate institutions, but for humanity's sake don't kill innocent people in the name of stopping the killing of innocent people!

P.S. The most successful genocide in history was committed by Americans on American soil (or soil that was stolen for America). Do you think things would have been better if other countries had decided to invade the US, instill fear and terror into the citizenry through a campaign of "shock and awe", destroy our infrastructure, provoke a long and bloody insurrection, place our natural resources under the control of their corporations and replace our government in the name of saving the Native Americans?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 12:32 PM
For one, it's hypocritical for the country with the most nuclear destructive power to condemn another country for wanting nukes. If we want to stop the deadly potential of nukes, we should start with the countries which currently have them. Maybe when the US government gets rid of its HUMONGOUS collection of weapons of mass destruction, will I take it seriously when it says it wants to eliminate that threat from the planet. There was no evidence of nukes or a nuke about to be made when we went into Iraq. Even in a hypothetical world where he had WMDs, do you think he would actually try to use them, knowing fully well how much the US could kick his ass? And if you think the best way to stop a genocide is by bombing their water and power sources, I don't know what to say. You want to save the Kurds from repression? Generate support for the Kurdistan independence movement, send some snipers over to kill anyone known to be involved with genocide, take violations of international law to the appropriate institutions, but for humanity's sake don't kill innocent people in the name of stopping the killing of innocent people!

P.S. The most successful genocide in history was committed by Americans on American soil (or soil that was stolen for America). Do you think things would have been better if other countries had decided to invade the US, instill fear and terror into the citizenry through a campaign of "shock and awe", destroy our infrastructure, provoke a long and bloody insurrection, place our natural resources under the control of their corporations and replace our government in the name of saving the Native Americans?

No evidence?

WASHINGTON JUNE 26. A former Iraqi nuclear scientist has provided American authorities parts and documents from Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons programme from over 12 years ago, a U.S. intelligence official said on Wednesday.

The scientist, Mahdi Shukur Obeidi, said he had kept the parts buried in his garden at his Baghdad home on the orders of Mr. Hussein's Government, according to the intelligence official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Once sanctions against Iraq ended, the material was to be dug up and used to reconstitute a programme to enrich uranium to make a nuclear weapon, Mr. Obeidi claimed.

U.S. authorities believe Mr. Obeidi's statements are credible, and they are regarded as evidence that Iraq made an effort to hide parts of its original programmes from U.N. inspectors.

Still, the intelligence official acknowledged the find was not the ``smoking gun'' that U.S. authorities are seeking to prove the Bush administration's claims that Iraq had an active programme to develop a nuclear weapon.

Before the 1991 Gulf War, Mr. Obeidi headed Iraq's programme to make centrifuges that would enrich uranium for nuclear weapons, the official said. Most or all of that programme was dismantled after U.N. inspections in the early 1990s. ?? AP

You saw how scared he was of a U.S. invasion when he refused to abide by U.N. resolutions. His boy Uday said that if we tried, 9-11 would look like a walk in the park. War is hell and innocents die. It amazes me the U.S. is the only country in the world judged on this basis!

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 02:51 PM
Okay, assuming contrary to that very article that this is the "smoking gun that US authorities are seeking to prove the Bush administration's clams that Iraq had an active programme to develop a nuclear weapon", then there is STILL no logical justification for a NUCLEAR POWER to inflict terrorism on another country's citizenry because its government was considering a nuclear program. We need to be punishing nuclear manufacturers (like the militaries of the US, UK, France, China, Israel, Iraq if this is true, etc.) not the people who live under governments whose militaries are making nuclear weapons.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 02:54 PM
Oh yah, that was called the Food for Oil program. With the U.N. sanctions the funds were to be used for meds, etc. , for the civiliians. To bad France, Germany, Russia, and China thought different! Saddam using the funds to buy scotch for his elite Republican Gaurd units, etc.... So where do you go from there?

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 02:56 PM
Time magazine of all things has a really interesting article about Iraq...

Sir Ivor Roberts, Britain's Ambassador to Italy, declared last September that the "best recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda" was none other than the U.S. President, George W. Bush....

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1081392,00.html

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:04 PM
Psycho....what about Korea, what about Pakistan they ARE nuclear capable...

WHat about Suadi Arabia that openly trains terrorist? All the "possible weapons" posts in the world does not justify lying to congress and the invasion...when we have so many other "really" dangerous countries to deal with...now we have used valuable resourses and lost the lives of our soldiers....we needed them. Now what?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:08 PM
Time magazine of all things has a really interesting article about Iraq...

Sir Ivor Roberts, Britain's Ambassador to Italy, declared last September that the "best recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda" was none other than the U.S. President, George W. Bush....

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1081392,00.html

This was in the same article:


But as the trail of bodies that began with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 continues to lengthen, we need to ask why the attacks keep coming. One key reason is that Osama bin Laden's "achievements" in standing up to the American colossus on 9/11 have inspired others to follow his lead.

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:10 PM
this is interseting...the lessons the russians learned from the Afgan invasion...

The lessons the Soviet military drew were concise:

Insufficient intelligence;
The ability of small units to use terrain against large formations;
"Complete disregard" for the local populace and its reactions;
Failure to win the populace over to the regime;
Placing all reliance on a "military solution";
Long term combat operations degrading the military.

In short, the United States is fighting its own version of the war that, according to the the foreign policy intellectual establishment, either brought down or hastened the fall of the USSR.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/070105X.shtml

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:14 PM
This was in the same article:


But as the trail of bodies that began with the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 continues to lengthen, we need to ask why the attacks keep coming. One key reason is that Osama bin Laden's "achievements" in standing up to the American colossus on 9/11 have inspired others to follow his lead.


OK so why did we attack Iraq? Bin Laden was not there....why didn't we send more troops to Afganistan not pull them out. We did not even close the borders with Pakistan....Our leadership sucks!

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:15 PM
Psycho....what about Korea, what about Pakistan they ARE nuclear capable...

WHat about Suadi Arabia that openly trains terrorist? All the "possible weapons" posts in the world does not justify lying to congress and the invasion...when we have so many other "really" dangerous countries to deal with...now we have used valuable resourses and lost the lives of our soldiers....we needed them. Now what?

Here's one for Korea:

During the early Clinton years, hard-liners and so-called conservative hawks advocated a pre-emptive strike to halt North Korea's nuclear weapons development before it could field an atomic bomb. Instead of taking the hard line, President Clinton elected to rely on former President Jimmy Carter and decided to appease the Marxist-Stalinist dictatorship.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/7/164846.shtml

Pakistan:

Muslims VS. Hindu's on this one!

A regional showdown between India and Pakistan has riveted world attention for weeks because of the risk that the conflict could go nuclear.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0604/p01s03-wosc.html

What a wonderful world we live in! :D

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:18 PM
OK so why did we attack Iraq? Bin Laden was not there....why didn't we send more troops to Afganistan not pull them out. We did not even close the borders with Pakistan....Our leadership sucks!

Nuke scientists with prints in their gardens, bio labs on wheels, paying martyrs families for suicide bombings in Israel, raping of teen girls by Saddams boys, genocide of the Kurds and Shi'ites, etc.......Which one do you want to pick? :eek:

Lets not forget the fact that Saddam allowed Zarqawi to have training sites withing the borders of Iraq. NOW, etc............ :D

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:24 PM
this is interseting...the lessons the russians learned from the Afgan invasion...

The lessons the Soviet military drew were concise:

Insufficient intelligence;
The ability of small units to use terrain against large formations;
"Complete disregard" for the local populace and its reactions;
Failure to win the populace over to the regime;
Placing all reliance on a "military solution";
Long term combat operations degrading the military.

In short, the United States is fighting its own version of the war that, according to the the foreign policy intellectual establishment, either brought down or hastened the fall of the USSR.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/070105X.shtml

Big difference between the soviets trying to keep Afghanistan as one of their OWN providences as compared to us encouraging open elections, supplying training for an Afghan military, etc.

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:30 PM
Nuke scientists with prints in their gardens, bio labs on wheels, paying martyrs families for suicide bombings in Israel, raping of teen girls by Saddams boys, genocide of the Kurds and Shi'ites...
.I understand what you are saying, that is ALL terrible but
none of it adds up to what was claimed by the Bushites and it is no where near as bad as the Saudis, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Korea.....we should have gone after Bin Laden....The person responsible for the terrorist cells we have now and the attack on our country...Bush has totally lost interest in Bin Laden. It is disgraceful. I don't like Clinton either...so throwing up his mistake is no defense...the Clinton's and the Bush's are from the same "Chinese" mold. They have sold out their country for profit.

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:33 PM
the point to the article was not the methods of occupation being used but the resources expended...the Russians broke the bank with their Afgan war....

Are we doing the same in Iraq?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:39 PM
Nuke scientists with prints in their gardens, bio labs on wheels, paying martyrs families for suicide bombings in Israel, raping of teen girls by Saddams boys, genocide of the Kurds and Shi'ites...
.I understand what you are saying, that is ALL terrible but
none of it adds up to what was claimed by the Bushites and it is no where near as bad as the Saudis, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Korea.....we should have gone after Bin Laden....The person responsible for the terrorist cells we have now and the attack on our country...Bush has totally lost interest in Bin Laden. It is disgraceful. I don't like Clinton either...so throwing up his mistake is no defense...the Clinton's and the Bush's are from the same "Chinese" mold. They have sold out their country for profit.

I don't think we have given up on Bin Laden:

US Seals 'got too close to bin Laden'
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15887188%255E2703,00.html

Defence Minister Abdul Rahim Wardak told reporters he thought bin Laden, al-Zawahri and Omar were "continuously on the run".

"They do not stay in one place for a long time and there is more possibility that they are on the other side," he said in reference to neighbouring Pakistan.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL270112.htm

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 03:41 PM
the point to the article was not the methods of occupation being used but the resources expended...the Russians broke the bank with their Afgan war....

Are we doing the same in Iraq?


I'd say no, since we invaded we have also trained over 160,000 Iraqis to take care of their own buisiness. (military) A day in the future they will completely handle the situation on their own. Hell, they even got the Iranians helping out with training now!

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 03:48 PM
US Seals 'got too close to bin Laden'
exactly...In Afganistan....where george Bush pulled out troops and sent them to Iraq...He has just prolonged Bin ladens capture...

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02

Admit it our leadership SUCKS.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:38 PM
US Seals 'got too close to bin Laden'
exactly...In Afganistan....where george Bush pulled out troops and sent them to Iraq...He has just prolonged Bin ladens capture...

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02

Admit it our leadership SUCKS.

Our leadership doesn't suck; that was Monica's job! OOOPS! Clinton years...SORRY!!! :D

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 04:39 PM
Oh yah, that was called the Food for Oil program. With the U.N. sanctions the funds were to be used for meds, etc. , for the civiliians. To bad France, Germany, Russia, and China thought different! Saddam using the funds to buy scotch for his elite Republican Gaurd units, etc.... So where do you go from there?
I'm not opposing aid. I'm wondering how you justify the terrorism you support.

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:42 PM
I'm not opposing aid. I'm wondering how you justify the terrorism you support.

You call that aid? I think I justified taking Saddam out already. Like I said before; Genocide on the Iraqi Kurds, Shi'ites, raping of school girls, paying families of martyrs. Oh yah, it wasn't sanctioned by the U.N. like Kosevo so we should have backed off and let France, Germany, Russia, and China reap rewards of dirty politics. Sorry about that! :rolleyes:

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 04:48 PM
Ahem...genocide on the kurds....where did Sadam get the gas he use on the Kurds?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:51 PM
Ahem...genocide on the kurds....where did Sadam get the gas he use on the Kurds?

Don't know.....George Bush? :confused:
I thought Chemical Ali headed up that program?

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 04:54 PM
Found it!

Historically, the Iraqi regime has a well- documented history of WMDs. Iraq started its offensive bioweapons program in the mid-1970s. Unwittingly, the United States supplied Iraq with seed stocks for bioweapons until 1989. Nonetheless, in 1990 Iraq was still able to buy 40 top-of-the-line ??aerosol generators? from an Italian company. Each was capable of dispersing 800 gallons of bio or chemical agent per hour.

http://www.today.ucla.edu/2003/030408whatsonmymind.html

Damn Italians!!!

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 05:01 PM
UNDER the successive presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, the USA sold nuclear, chemical and biological weapons technology to Saddam Hussein. - In the early 1990s, UN inspectors told the US Senate committee on banking, housing and urban affairs ?? which oversees American export policy ?? that they had ??identified many US-manufactured items exported pursuant of licences issued by the US department of commerce that were used to further Iraq??s chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs?......

It was just before Christmas 1983 that Donald Rumsfeld, then US presidential envoy to Iraq, slipped quietly into Baghdad to come face to face with the man who would become one of America??s greatest enemies within two decades.

Saddam has been accused of using WMD's against the Kurds at Halabja during the 1980's. Few could defend his innocence, but so many are willing to ignore the guilt of the U.S. on this matter it was the U.S. who sold the chemical and biological weapons to Iraq then, so "[i]t would...include Donald Rumsfeld explaining about his meetings with Saddam in the early eighties" about "the chemical and biological weapons sold by the US to Iraq...There is ample evidence the US both sold Iraq the chemicals used and even advised which were the most `effective.´" :eek:

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 05:02 PM
Dow chemical BTW has made a fortune....selling death chemicals...and who owns the most Dow stock? hmmmm I wonder.

BlueCat
07-11-2005, 05:04 PM
Seed stocks...lmao wow that makes it sound better. Politicians are assholes....

Psycho4Bud
07-11-2005, 05:39 PM
Politicians are assholes....

That pretty well sums it up! Damn!!! We agree again? This is becoming a trend!!!LOL :D

ermitonto
07-11-2005, 11:47 PM
You call that aid? I think I justified taking Saddam out already. Like I said before; Genocide on the Iraqi Kurds, Shi'ites, raping of school girls, paying families of martyrs. Oh yah, it wasn't sanctioned by the U.N. like Kosevo so we should have backed off and let France, Germany, Russia, and China reap rewards of dirty politics. Sorry about that! :rolleyes:

Right, we can agree that Saddam is a bad leader, a despicable person even. (Just like our own leader, by the way. We need to stop pretending we have the answer to every oppressive regime. Half the time when we get out of a country a more oppressive leader is put in than before. Look at Chile or Nicaragua.) BUT, where do we get off terrorizing the Iraqi populace by bombing their water and power supplies for tolerating a bad leader? And why do any of the other countries with oppressive, malevolent regimes (Myanmar? Libya? Saudi Arabia? Cuba? Vietnam? Nepal? Where was the US army during apartheid?), not deserve the same fate?

If we want to instill democracy in the world, let's start by getting rid of our terrorist leaders here at home. Bush and the PNAC started this "War On Terrorism" knowing it could justify military intervention indefinitely, and that it doesn't even matter to the unthinking masses that WE OURSELVES are engaging in terrorism in the process. They're never going to declare the war over. Just like the War On Drugs, they know since what they're supposedly fighting is an abstract concept they will never have to stop the war by achieving victory, and they can use it as an excuse to accumulate more and more power and money as long as they want. They don't care about stopping the killing of innocent civilians. Otherwise, they wouldn't be dehumanizing and insulting the dead victims of American terrorism with the term "collateral damage". It's no coincidence Haliburton is making a fortune off this war, you know.

Psycho4Bud
07-12-2005, 01:46 AM
Right, we can agree that Saddam is a bad leader, a despicable person even. (Just like our own leader, by the way. We need to stop pretending we have the answer to every oppressive regime. Half the time when we get out of a country a more oppressive leader is put in than before. Look at Chile or Nicaragua.) BUT, where do we get off terrorizing the Iraqi populace by bombing their water and power supplies for tolerating a bad leader? And why do any of the other countries with oppressive, malevolent regimes (Myanmar? Libya? Saudi Arabia? Cuba? Vietnam? Nepal? Where was the US army during apartheid?), not deserve the same fate?

If we want to instill democracy in the world, let's start by getting rid of our terrorist leaders here at home. Bush and the PNAC started this "War On Terrorism" knowing it could justify military intervention indefinitely, and that it doesn't even matter to the unthinking masses that WE OURSELVES are engaging in terrorism in the process. They're never going to declare the war over. Just like the War On Drugs, they know since what they're supposedly fighting is an abstract concept they will never have to stop the war by achieving victory, and they can use it as an excuse to accumulate more and more power and money as long as they want. They don't care about stopping the killing of innocent civilians. Otherwise, they wouldn't be dehumanizing and insulting the dead victims of American terrorism with the term "collateral damage". It's no coincidence Haliburton is making a fortune off this war, you know.


where do we get off terrorizing the Iraqi populace by bombing their water and power supplies for tolerating a bad leader?

You tolerate a cold, crying child, speeding ticket.... Having the threat of being put into a torture room and possibly watching your wife raped and children killed for speaking against the government is not tolerating a situation.

And why do any of the other countries with oppressive, malevolent regimes (Myanmar? Libya? Saudi Arabia? Cuba? Vietnam? Nepal?
Are they consistantly breaking U.N. resolutions? If so, maybe it's a future plan...I surely don't know. :confused:

Bush and the PNAC started this "War On Terrorism"

Don't tell me your one of the believers that the WTC was brought down by our own. I think Osama had a big part of this war on terror.

they wouldn't be dehumanizing and insulting the dead victims of American terrorism with the term "collateral damage".

Number one, war is hell. Innocent people die, expecially when used for human shields. Number two, why is this "American Terrorism"? Heres a list of the first allied forces:
USA, United Kingdom, South Korea, Italy, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, Romania, Australia, Netherlands, Japan, Denmark, Bulgaria, El Salvador, Mongolia, Azerbaijan, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Albania, Estonia,Macedonia, Kazakhstan, Norway, Angola, Colombia, Costa Rica,Dominican Republic, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Kuwait, Micronesia, Moldova, Nicaragua, Philippines, Portugal, Rwanda, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Spain, Thailand, Tonga, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.

Haliburton is making a fortune off this war,
Right along with every oil producing nation in this world that used the war to jack the price of oil from $26/bl to over $60/bl.

amsterdam
07-12-2005, 03:11 PM
keep in mind erminito also thinks he can just pack up and move to holland because he wants too.

nicholasstanko
07-12-2005, 04:22 PM
keep in mind erminito also thinks he can just pack up and move to holland because he wants too.


lol.

why cant he though.

amsterdam
07-12-2005, 04:23 PM
its kinda strict.

nicholasstanko
07-12-2005, 04:26 PM
oh. yeh i can imagine. all that "legal" pot...

amsterdam
07-12-2005, 04:32 PM
no,it really is strict now.

amsterdam
07-13-2005, 02:43 PM
people just cant move to the netherlands,they must have a college degree in a buisness that benefits the dutch people and a job to go with it.

a person cannot just say i want to live in holland because i like the laws there.they would be laughed at and told to go home.you can travel and stay there for awhile but you cant just move there.

nicholasstanko
07-13-2005, 02:48 PM
people just cant move to the netherlands,they must have a college degree in a buisness that benefits the dutch people and a job to go with it.

a person cannot just say i want to live in holland because i like the laws there.they would be laughed at and told to go home.you can travel and stay there for awhile but you cant just move there.

I think that's pretty much alot of countries. at least i know thats how it is in canada except if your seeking refugee status or something...

amsterdam
07-13-2005, 03:00 PM
you guys are gonna pay for that soon im sure.

ii saw an article on how canada has given safe haven to over a hundred on the watch list terrorists.good luck with that.

Psycho4Bud
07-13-2005, 03:09 PM
Welcome to Citizenship and Immigration Canada

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.html

I guess this is everything you need to know to become a Canadian. :D

amsterdam
07-13-2005, 03:27 PM
they will get their wake up soon enough.

nicholasstanko
07-13-2005, 05:43 PM
but why would terrorist s bomb a country that doesnt discriminate against their ethnicity and actually harbours them? it wouldnt make sense to bomb the city and have the american gov. right next door come down on them

pisshead
07-13-2005, 05:45 PM
and the 'terrorists' never go after any of the people they're targeting...

they go after working class, mass transit systems, public centers...which are then used to justify more cameras that won't keep people safe and national id cards that won't keep people safe.

and eventually we'll have troops in the streets and stores searching us and keeping us safe. this has been practiced in san antonio, alabama, and corpus christi and no doubt across the country. they'll have active duty marines or army cordoning off stadiums for sports events or festivals and they'll search people.

this is not freedom!!! do i even have to say that this is not freedom? it's like watching old videos of nazi germany with the citizens being searched before getting on trains...

if the terrorists hate freedom...then our governments must hate it too, even more, because they're the ones actively legislating the freedom away.

amsterdam
07-13-2005, 05:47 PM
because it has nothing to with that,holy shit.they dont give a shit about that,my god are you kidding me??all they want to kill is the way of life and freedom we have.bring panick to all those countries.it wouldnt matter if the iraq war didnt happen,it would happen if afghanistan didnt happen.usually i can respect what you say nick but that was ridiculous.
canada could sever all ties with the united states and still be a target.

nicholasstanko
07-13-2005, 05:54 PM
i dont think that's true amsterdam.

i think its our close ties with the united states that makes us such a big target. dont forget alot of islamists hate america because americans have a habit of telling other people how to live their lives.

amsterdam
07-13-2005, 06:02 PM
thats some funny shit.

i wonder what would happen to a buddhist monk if they tried to talk peace with zarqawi?they would saw his head off with a pocket knife and film it.you had better wake up my friend and see this jihad they have started isnt against the united states.it is against democracy,freedom of religon,freedom of speech.america is viewed world wide as the champion of these things and the richest,most powerful nation on the planet.a good target that would get attention.

nicholasstanko
07-13-2005, 07:55 PM
thats some funny shit.

i wonder what would happen to a buddhist monk if they tried to talk peace with zarqawi?they would saw his head off with a pocket knife and film it.you had better wake up my friend and see this jihad they have started isnt against the united states.it is against democracy,freedom of religon,freedom of speech.america is viewed world wide as the champion of these things and the richest,most powerful nation on the planet.a good target that would get attention.


youre making good points...but dont forget that zarqawi is an extreme fundamentalist. he's no different than some crazy christian blowing up an abortion clinic.


i didnt know zarqawi was an iraqi... :rolleyes: