god can not exsist

[mellowyellow]

ok dudes here is my little philisophical therory god can not exsist
thats it...







jk people just thought id have a little fun anyway god cant exsist because something cannot be created out of nothing so god would have always had too of existed even so god would have to be infinitely large to create the univers so he would destroy or change himself into the universe so god would no longer exist or every thing would be god

sorry if that was a little mixed up im kinda high

[mellowyellow]

wow sometimes i amaze myself

[bruiser]

dude what strain are ya smoking lol,who put the whole universe into play? not me not you,there is a god,even the big bang theory still leans towards a starting point! even the scientist believe something made the bang go boom... :) smoke as much weed as ya want you still won't grasp any of the answers lol

[slipknotpsycho]

....OP (original poster incase someone doesn't know what OP is) is right god can't exist...

[nomadherbman]

god as the bible tells of him definatly doesnt exist... why would he make everyone so different if he wanted them to be the same??? I do believe in a "god" but not a man up inthe clouds... God is what is, God is the energy that created this univers and everything in it.. and there definalty isnt any heaven or hell!! "Your not christian!!!! TO HELL WITH YOU!!!!! lol religous people make me laugh....

[naturalmystic]

A flaw in humans is that EVERYTHING has to have a beginning AND end. There is stuff out there that the human mind just can't comprehend. You need to think outside the box with this sort of stuff. Nothing is impossible when theorizing about whether there is, was, will be, a god Or when the universe began or where we came from. The possibilities are endless. I give credit to those beings who created the bible, mythology, religions..ect.. they were thinking outside the box to try and explain. That's why i'm beginning to think that humans will NEVER know certain stuff. Thinking outside the box is what people today have trouble doing. And when they actually try to, they're labled insane.

[LimpBizkitRMV04]

this si why when your trying to figure out the answers to this shit you need to be trippin on acid lol...... screw religon too i dont belive any of that shit.

[bruiser]

A flaw in humans is that EVERYTHING has to have a beginning AND end. There is stuff out there that the human mind just can't comprehend. You need to think outside the box with this sort of stuff. Nothing is impossible when theorizing about whether there is, was, will be, a god Or when the universe began or where we came from. The possibilities are endless. I give credit to those beings who created the bible, mythology, religions..ect.. they were thinking outside the box to try and explain. That's why i'm beginning to think that humans will NEVER know certain stuff. Thinking outside the box is what people today have trouble doing. And when they actually try to, they're labled insane.


Believe it or not brother! thinking outside of the Box is what brought me to my conclushion,Jesus is Lord...but it's good we can talk about it without the hate being thrown back and fourth......

[naturalmystic]

Yesterday, whilst walking around downtown, a woman came up to me and handed me a religious pamphlet, I initially rejected it, and she responded "You haven't even read it." Just out of curiosity for those who purposely try to spread their religion. I ask you what you think it would be like if everyone were the same. How drastically different the world would be if everyone had the exact same values and morales. If you're spending a lot of time trying to convert people, you're obviously not spending enough time on yourself. And trying to make yourself a better person.

[PureEvil760]

humans are just ignorant period, just know that you know absolutly nothing

[bruiser]

Yesterday, whilst walking around downtown, a woman came up to me and handed me a religious pamphlet, I initially rejected it, and she responded "You haven't even read it." Just out of curiosity for those who purposely try to spread their religion. I ask you what you think it would be like if everyone were the same. How drastically different the world would be if everyone had the exact same values and morales. If you're spending a lot of time trying to convert people, you're obviously not spending enough time on yourself. And trying to make yourself a better person.

The way I see it if everyone in the world had christian value's,the place would bea great place to live!,difference is what devides us..

[F L E S H]

The way I see it if everyone in the world had christian value's,the place would bea great place to live!,difference is what devides us..
Yeah!! If everyone's like ME, then everything's gonna be alright!

[bruiser]

Yeah!! If everyone's like ME, then everything's gonna be alright!

Come off it dude,all I am saying if people hold to the truth of Jesus Christ in their hearts,and actually lived by his truth,everything would be great!...I think you posting like that under me was just foolish,other words if we all love like christ did,then we would be united under one!........but you fail to see that right? of course..

[bruiser]

If you believe in Jesus or not, his teachings still stands as a perfect way to live with your fellow human...if he be god or not,isn't the point it's his truth!!!!

[F L E S H]

If the entire planet lived according to Muhammad, every one would get along too... Same thing if every believed in Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. If every one believed in the Buddha, everyone would be enlightened... What makes believing in Jesus better than believing in these other things? Absolutely nothing.

[bruiser]

You missed the whole point by a landslide sorry to see that your thoughts are your finale answer..

[F L E S H]

You missed the whole point by a landslide sorry to see that your thoughts are your finale answer..
can't keep up with the debate so you say I'm off by a landslide? hmm... Denial will get you nowhere....

[bruiser]

not that I can't keep up! just when your up against closed mind people whats the point of even trying :D ,either way brother good luck.

[F L E S H]

not that I can't keep up! just when your up against closed mind people whats the point of even trying :D ,either way brother good luck.
don't patronize me, buddy. I'm not the one with the closed mind. My point is that you seem to be certain that you and everyone who believes as you do is right, and everyoine else is wrong. How am I close minded?

[naturalmystic]

I completely understand where FRESH is coming from. I don't believe it's being close-minded. He asked a significantly valid question....What makes believing in Jesus better than believing in these other things?

And that question, in my opinion, stems back to the woman who was so stubborn to convert me. Or at least read her little pamphlet. Who's to say I didn't already have a religion. I have a pretty big nose, I could've been jewish. Did she really think she could actually convert me from one religion to another. Her thinking that she could convert me from one religion to another also stems from her thinking that her religion is obviously the best. AND THAT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN IS WHAT ANNOYS ME.


That's all.

[F L E S H]

lol, thanks mystic! I totally agree with you.

Everyone's allowed to believe whatever religion they want, just don't be so arrogant as to say yours is the best and I'm lost unless I believe the same thing you do.

[NightProwler]

heyheyheyheyhey... if god created the universe, than what created god???

[Twoshots]

Chicken or the egg?

[Nochowderforyou]

Religious people think they are right, and everyone else is wrong. If we choose not to follow Christ, we are wrong, you are judging us infairly, even though I remeber correctly, doesn't the bible teach you NOT to judge one another, even though you do it everyday thinking that we are wrong because we don't follow Christ. You're all hypocrites, most of you are, you follow these "rules", yet you break them everyday. I grew up in a very religious household, my father was religious, my mother, yet it is okay for them preach goodness in mankind while they beat the living shit out of me and my brother? Leave us alone, we are happy, stop trying to change that. Religion is what people are FIGHTING and KILLING about in the middle east. Thou shall love thy neighbor? Thou shall NOT kill?

"If you serve God for money, then you serve the Devil"

[Juggalotus17]

God can't create the universe because the universe is bigger? So you're saying i can't build a house because the house is bigger than me? You're thinking too small.

God isn't in this dimention, he isnt in the universe. He isnt outside the universe. He's on a completely different plane of existance, completely seperate from us besides for the links we have such as faith, love, marijuana, and miracles.

[mrdevious]

Religious people think they are right, and everyone else is wrong. If we choose not to follow Christ, we are wrong, you are judging us infairly, even though I remeber correctly, doesn't the bible teach you NOT to judge one another, even though you do it everyday thinking that we are wrong because we don't follow Christ. You're all hypocrites, most of you are, you follow these "rules", yet you break them everyday. I grew up in a very religious household, my father was religious, my mother, yet it is okay for them preach goodness in mankind while they beat the living shit out of me and my brother? Leave us alone, we are happy, stop trying to change that. Religion is what people are FIGHTING and KILLING about in the middle east. Thou shall love thy neighbor? Thou shall NOT kill?

"If you serve God for money, then you serve the Devil"

I'd have to say we're on the same page. I wouldn't say "all" one-god-religion people are like that, but a crap load are and should learn to use that funny little part of their brain that enables critical thought.

[Checkminus]

If God didn't exsist, based solely on the assumption that things must have a beggining, than what about time. Time never started, time will never end, so I guess time doesn't exsist. God is beyond us, he doesn't have to obey the laws of nature and logical thought that hold us, as humans, back. If God were contained to the laws of human's, then he wouldn't be much of a god at all.

[Juggalotus17]

If God didn't exsist, based solely on the assumption that things must have a beggining, than what about time. Time never started, time will never end, so I guess time doesn't exsist. God is beyond us, he doesn't have to obey the laws of nature and logical thought that hold us, as humans, back. If God were contained to the laws of human's, then he wouldn't be much of a god at all.


exactly what i'm saying bro. if he created all this who says he had to follow his own rules? he's like a programmer, and we're his program. he has COMPLETE control. but wait, i can already hear the question...

"why doesn't he make the world peaceful and blah blah blah <insert bush mocking> <insert terrorist threats throughout the world> <insert random deaths>"

that's because he gave humanity, all of humanity, free will. thats what makes us very unique and special! we're his little creation, and he's letting us do whatever we want.

what i personally believe, is God being very lonely created the universe, earth and it's species in specifically to let it grow and evolve. he created us so he would have some friends, someone to speak with and talk to.... and thats what we do every day. although i dont pray, go to church, follow religion rules, etc etc i still know God's with me at all times and unknowingly i communicate with him through everything i do, think, and shit.

hopefully this helps point someone in the right direction :)

[F L E S H]

what i personally believe, is God being very lonely created the universe

That's what's called anthropomorphism, taking something that's not human and giving it human qualities. How the fuck do you think a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, spiritual being could possibly be 'lonely'? What does that even mean for 'God'? He has nothing to do on the weekends, so he creates the universe? Come on, man, grow up.

[Twoshots]

If there is no God can you please explain where the afterlife comes from what it is?
Have you ever done a ouija board.What is this if not some form of afterlife cannot be one person mindset can it?I have done them with people and on my own and know it is not fake.(btw I will never do another).
Humans are always trying to understand and be everything to all things but they forget we are the creations not the creator and will never be able to understand such things.
Just go with the flow and accept what is..

[Checkminus]

I'd have to say we're on the same page. I wouldn't say "all" one-god-religion people are like that, but a crap load are and should learn to use that funny little part of their brain that enables critical thought.



I agree with you, I guess you could say im a "one-god-religion" person. It's true that most christians try very hard to impress their lifestyle onto people. And exactly as you said, many many people fail to use the logical thought that (at least in my, probably flawed, oppinion) God gave us. If we weren't meant to use it, we probably wouldn't have it.

[Fattie]

damn, you guys write alot to answer simple questions on here. God always existed. There ya go.

[naturalmystic]

Here's a question for everyone...

There are literally an infinity ways and reasons to explain stuff. So why single it down too just ONE. To me, there's just to many options, and to single it down to one is arrogant. I think when people have religions, they reduce their capabilities to interpret stuff around them. They become 'close-minded".

[Torog]

Here's a question for everyone...

There are literally an infinity ways and reasons to explain stuff. So why single it down too just ONE. To me, there's just to many options, and to single it down to one is arrogant. I think when people have religions, they reduce their capabilities to interpret stuff around them. They become 'close-minded".
Howdy naturalmystic,

I agree,that some folks can be close-minded,if they are thoroughly 'steeped' in their religion,however,that's mostly true for the less educated person of Faith,for those that are more educated,they are in a constant process of reconciling new data versus accepted belief. But the data that they process,is not used for rejecting their Faith,but rather,to see the Hand of God in all things.

My Faith,has made me more spiritual,not less..being a father and a man of 46 years,I have seen much that can only be explained as the Hand of God being involved,in fact,I often have circular reaffirmations,on a daily basis,that God works in mysterious ways,indeed. The longer you live,the more that you will experience,that can only be explained as the influence of a Higher Power. Simply becoming a father,made me more spiritual and I realized that our children,are indeed a blessing from God, and I have been humbled many times,having to start over from scratch..sometimes from the street. I give all credit to God,for what seemed miraculous at times,the providing of what I and my family needed. Events have come together in such a way,as to defy any other explanation..and you have to be spiritually aware,to discern the mysterious workings of God,but you can grasp it to some degree,if you simply pay attention. However,we are warned not to go to far in this particular discerment..but rather,simply be grateful and humble and place our trust in God.

To me,Science merely reinforces my Faith,as we discover how the Universe works..it does not lead me away from God..but rather,leads me back to God.

Have a good one ....

[Checkminus]

Here's a question for everyone...

There are literally an infinity ways and reasons to explain stuff. So why single it down too just ONE. To me, there's just to many options, and to single it down to one is arrogant. I think when people have religions, they reduce their capabilities to interpret stuff around them. They become 'close-minded".



By refusing to even accept the notion that there may be one true religion, you could be considered close minded. But on a whole you're probably right.

[naturalmystic]

By refusing to even accept the notion that there may be one true religion, you could be considered close minded. But on a whole you're probably right.


That's very true. It could go both ways i suppose.

[Euphoric]

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

www.evilbible.com

[MnM1]

that sounds like me euphoric

[F L E S H]

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

www.evilbible.com
That makes good sense. Like I said before, as humans we cannot think of something beyond ourselves, nor can we form a mental image of something we have never seen. If there's life in the Universe other than on our little planet, can anyone truly say that they have an idea of how the extra-terrestrials would look like? It's the same with God. It makes no sense to give God human emotions like being bored, or angry, or vengeful, because he isn't human (if he exists at all)

[amsterdam]

the answers will never be known as fact on either side of the debate.thats what makes it so fun.

[F L E S H]

the answers will never be known as fact on either side of the debate.thats what makes it so fun.
That's because you reject the facts outright.

[slipknotpsycho]

don't patronize me, buddy. I'm not the one with the closed mind. My point is that you seem to be certain that you and everyone who believes as you do is right, and everyoine else is wrong. How am I close minded?
i agree, i think someone trying to convince someone else to be christian and not listening to the word "no" is having a closed mind, not ever questioning this god you so believe in is having a closed mind. i'm so tired of hearing about god, god this god that...if we aren't for god then we're going to hell (as stated before, being judged which is not anyone's place christian or not) and i think it's kinda funny that you can break these 10 rules he said to NEVER break and you can go make it up two days outta the week sitting in a clothes fashion show (becasue that's all church is, just a place to show off who has the more "spirit" [speaking tounges is quite the stuipdest thing i've ever heard...look i'm christian i can do it too lafkjdlfkjasodifweofnalsdhlfdnln, there i don't know what i said but it doesn't matter cuz i know it was good cuz the holy spirit made me do it] and nicer clothes...) begging for forgiveness.....the whole book just seems to perferct and fabricated...in my theory the bible was written a long time ago to try and control mankind, perhaps to kill out some of the crime that was going on back then, for whatever reason i don't know, but that damned book was written by man and no one else...god didn't come down with a feather and some ink and start jotting down how he wants to see the world (and even if he did, he wouldn't see it how he wanted since he "gave" us free choice)

[slipknotpsycho]

The longer you live,the more that you will experience,that can only be explained as the influence of a Higher Power.


well of course the longer you live the more "unexplainable" things you are going to experience....that's not nessicarily god (notice i'm not saying it's absolutely not, becasue honestly i don't know) that could just as easily be facts, physics, and probability

[amsterdam]

the answers will never be known as fact on either side of the debate.thats what makes it so fun.


not at all?i just dont care at all.i believe in god,if you dont like it,to bad.my kids are gonna be raised in the church and go to private catholic school so they can kill fags and hate muslims.thats a joke for all you sensitive pussies out there.cry me a river.

prove there is no god.you cant do it.nothing but worthless opinions that show nada.religon will always be here and there is nothing yopu or anyone else can do about it.get over it.

[Twoshots]

[/QUOTE]prove there is no god.you cant do it.nothing but worthless opinions that show nada[QUOTE]
So true - Disprove it people.....you cant ..........Personally I am a believer and like amsterdam said "If you don`t like it,too bad"..
We will all see in the end..

[F L E S H]

not at all?i just dont care at all.i believe in god,if you dont like it,to bad.my kids are gonna be raised in the church and go to private catholic school so they can kill fags and hate muslims.thats a joke for all you sensitive pussies out there.cry me a river.

prove there is no god.you cant do it.nothing but worthless opinions that show nada.religon will always be here and there is nothing yopu or anyone else can do about it.get over it.
It's funny how every single debate with you ends the same way... "I do what I want, get over it" You should trademark that.

[Mojavpa]

The point isnt to try to prove that God doesnt exist-its to try to disprove or call into question or show the contradiction in every other claim about God that people commonly refer to. Like, for example, How is he a benevolent God? Theres a million other questions that you can ask about "God", and they wont have answers for all them. Eventually, they'll see that agnosticism, or better yet, atheism, is the way to go. :) Well, they probably wont, but it doesnt hurt to try

[F L E S H]

I don't think atheism is better, nor is agnosticism, nor is any other religion. I think people should be free to believe in whatever they like, and no religion is superior to another. Each one, in its own way, contributes a piece of the ultimate Truth. We'll probably never be able to put all the pieces together, but I think it's important to realize that there is a universal Truth out there, whether you want to call it God, Allah, Nirvana, Brahma, is your business. But when you get down to studying religions comparatively, you'll realize how similar they all are in the end, with minor, yet crucial differences, that stem not from the religion itself, but rather from the culture in which the religion evolved.

[amsterdam]

The point isnt to try to prove that God doesnt exist-its to try to disprove or call into question or show the contradiction in every other claim about God that people commonly refer to. Like, for example, How is he a benevolent God? Theres a million other questions that you can ask about "God", and they wont have answers for all them. Eventually, they'll see that agnosticism, or better yet, atheism, is the way to go. :) Well, they probably wont, but it doesnt hurt to try


wishfull thinking. :rolleyes:

[Pestiferous]

When u think about it....
Something came from something...
and that something came from something else...
You can keep going and going but eventually realizing that a greater power had to have put that somethign there...
Prolly dont make sense to u guys but in my own Little world it does...


and about the hypocritcal bullshit...

If a christian belives in god and says yor wrong for not beliving in god... how is that hypocritical...
a hypocrit is someone who Bitches at you for something he does...

Done

[mrdevious]

I don't see the Universe coming out of nothing any less probably than a god coming out of nothing.

[koshea]

can't keep up with the debate so you say I'm off by a landslide? hmm... Denial will get you nowhere....

lol dude flesh i just read those exchange of words and you were owned dude

[BluntArtist]

Come off it dude,all I am saying if people hold to the truth of Jesus Christ in their hearts,and actually lived by his truth,everything would be great!...I think you posting like that under me was just foolish,other words if we all love like christ did,then we would be united under one!........but you fail to see that right? of course..

Blind faith never ceases to amaze me. Question religion; think about what you're really accomplishing. Religion was created to explain things that people couldn't understand and give people a rudimentary set of morals. Why do bad things happen to good people? Surely, God cannot let anything happen to his followers. But we all know how that is. Without religion we'd be living in anarchy. That's why I think a group of people made up this incredible story of the Bible: just so people wouldn't run around killing each other, fucking their friends' wives, or stealing. It's pretty much common sense.

[F L E S H]

Sorry, mistake post

[stothelutz]

Theres no reason for any one to do anything realy. Acording to every religion (that i know of)the ultimate goal is to die and go to his/her god. So why would we have a will to live if if our only goal was to be with our creator (if there is one). Wouldn't you just want to die faster.

And thats my 2 cents.

[mrdevious]

Theres no reason for any one to do anything realy. Acording to every religion (that i know of)the ultimate goal is to die and go to his/her god. So why would we have a will to live if if our only goal was to be with our creator (if there is one). Wouldn't you just want to die faster.

And thats my 2 cents.

Except Buddhism, Shinto, and I think Wicca (though i'm not sure about wicca).

[FlyMeHigh]

Way i see it Man created god in his/her head. not the other way around...

to me "god" IS the entire universe, not a being, just the entire universe, that is what i worship

[weedracer119]

i believe there is a god, and he put us here to worship him and spread his word. he gives us signs all the time, but if you don't know what to look for then it might be harder to see and believe. if there wasn't a god then how else does everything get here. i don't think that everything is based off one cell, like the theory of evolution says. i'm not saying that one religion is right and all others are wrong, but i do believe there is a god and one day everyone will see and those who don't believe will still be punished. now i don't hold religion against anyone whether they believe or not, because thats them. i judge people on who they are, not what they believe. so therefore i hope no one holds it against me, that i believe in god. that's just my opinion.

[Nero]

How can you not believe in God? Look outside and see the world or better yet just look at your own body. How could something as complex as the human body with the brain the organs all working together so perfectly? Just look at how compicated child birth is from conception to birth. Also how could one have morals outside of the bible. The bible itself is a proven book with 1000s of years of history and not one error is found in the bible despite its many authers over a long range of years. How could live have evolved from simple matter, how could matter have evolved from nothing how did the nothing get here? To not believe a God created the universe and the life within it is simply illogical.

Im sorry I don't buy it, if someone wants to try to convince me God is real go ahead I will listen but really I don't see it happening. I wrote this post to try to get my self to see from that perspective but for me it is just a bunch of closed minded arguments.

[weedracer119]

nero you contradicted yourself because in the beginning you said, "how can you not believe in God?" and in the end you said, "im sorry i don't buy it, if someone wants to try to convince me God is real go ahead i will listen but really i don't see it happening." Just out of curiousety, do you believe in God or don't you. personally i do but like i said before, i don't hold religion against people. half of my friends don't believe. we stay friends because we just don't talk about it.

[F L E S H]

How can you not believe in God? Look outside and see the world or better yet just look at your own body. How could something as complex as the human body with the brain the organs all working together so perfectly? Just look at how compicated child birth is from conception to birth. Also how could one have morals outside of the bible. The bible itself is a proven book with 1000s of years of history and not one error is found in the bible despite its many authers over a long range of years. How could live have evolved from simple matter, how could matter have evolved from nothing how did the nothing get here? To not believe a God created the universe and the life within it is simply illogical.

Im sorry I don't buy it, if someone wants to try to convince me God is real go ahead I will listen but really I don't see it happening. I wrote this post to try to get my self to see from that perspective but for me it is just a bunch of closed minded arguments.
Are 2 of your personalities having a debate, Nero?

[Mojavpa]

How can you not believe in God? Look outside and see the world or better yet just look at your own body. How could something as complex as the human body with the brain the organs all working together so perfectly? Just look at how compicated child birth is from conception to birth. Also how could one have morals outside of the bible. The bible itself is a proven book with 1000s of years of history and not one error is found in the bible despite its many authers over a long range of years. How could live have evolved from simple matter, how could matter have evolved from nothing how did the nothing get here? To not believe a God created the universe and the life within it is simply illogical.

Im sorry I don't buy it, if someone wants to try to convince me God is real go ahead I will listen but really I don't see it happening. I wrote this post to try to get my self to see from that perspective but for me it is just a bunch of closed minded arguments.

There are a ton of errors in the bible.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

And the human body is the product of millions of years of evolution.

[smoky desperado]

"Once people get hung up on theology, they've lost sanity forever. More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than any other name in the history of the world." Gore Vidal

[MrsDarkIdol]

The creation of anti-matter proves that something can be made out of nothing because that is exactly what we have accomplished.
There are two types of matter.
The 1st being the obvious, everything is made of matter in our every day world.
The 2nd your anti-matter, which was believed to be out of our reach in the universe, now however has been created by scientists.

When anti-matter and matter touch in anyway, it's way way way worse then any nuclear explosion.

However this basically proves that "God" is energy, the energy that connects everything.

Well I guess it would take a lot more to explain it, however this is all I can do at the moment :)

I highly recommend everyone see What The Bleep Do We Know that hasn't already

[mrdevious]

we've harnessed anti-matter eh?.......... (source?)

[Gothen]

God existed man simply because he wanted to see a creation flourish that had free will. A creation that could survive on its own merit, think for itself, choose to believe and worship God, or choose not to. I don't have any other explanation as to WHY God created man.

In God's eyes, humanity is perfection. We have to right to choose our lives, live them, and die at the end of them. That is why Lucifer was so angry. God loved the race of men more than He loved the angels, the ones who carried out His every order, and they had to love Him. Lucifer thought we were weak and pitiful because we weren't as powerful as angels. He wanted God to love them more, and when God didn't, he thought that God Himself was weak. That he was better than God. So he rebelled, and some angels fought with him. They were exiled into what was first referred to as the Darkness. It was just a fiery ring and when the exiled were cast into it, when they first landed, it was dark. Then the flames roiled and burst from the ground, and Lucifer, the bearer of light, became known as Satan, the Deceiver.

Now, I'm a very religious person, by my standards. Smoking marijuana has only increased my faith in God and my spirituality. I believe that any person no matter what they have done in their life can go to Heaven. All they have to do is pray and ask for God to forgive them, and truly mean it. I don't believe that people go to hell just for having a different religion, though. I think that anyone can go to heaven, if they're a good person in life. Of course, that requires me to go onto why I'm not a Christian. Christians believe that people who don't believe in Christ, go to hell. That people who do not even know the word of God, go to hell. I don't think God is that cruel. Live a good life, and you'll go to heaven.

Another big reason why I can't be called a Christian is because I don't believe in creation the way the Bible says. I believe that God created humans, but that he had us evolve from a single celled organism. That he is the one that put that one-celled amoeba into the ectoplasmic soup that, ultimately, created us.

I'm sure no one has really heard this belief, but ya know...its my believe.

By the way, the reason why NONE of ANY of your questions can be answered is because its FAITH. The word alone should say it all. You believe or you don't. Every person has their own belief, even if their belief is that they don't believe. Its faith, man. Get with it. lol

[MrsDarkIdol]

Mr.Devious

I wouldn't exactly say "harnessed" , in that it cannot yet be safely adapted for use.
They've created particals of it. Which is about all they can do at this time, considering the danger of creating large amounts. And it would need to be kept from touching any matter whatsoever, which since everything is made of matter is quite a feet to say the least.

My source is actually from a book I read, I know your not suppose to be believe everything you read but he is a very credible author and also I did some research regarding it to get more information.
The book is entitled 'Angels & Demons' by Dan Brown
It is an exceptional read it your into books at all and very enlighting. He uses alot of facts.

The people who have succeeded in this are located in Switzerland. We like to think of the US as ahead on all this type of stuff but were not. Infact I believe that the US was working on creating a machine to create Anti-Matter but the project got pulled.

The organiztion is called CERN-Conseil Europeen pour la Recherche Nucleaire
"Antimatter is the most powerful source known to man. It releases energy with 100 percent efficiency(nuclear fission is 1.5 percent efficient). Antimatter
creates no pollution or radiation, and a droplet could power New York City for a full day.
There is however one catch.
Antimatter is highly unstable, it ignites when it comes into contact with absolutely anything, even air. A single gram of antimatter contains the energy of a 20-Kiloton nuclear bomb-the size of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima."

I know this seems a little off topic of the orginal thread, but what this means for science and religion is a complete break through.

And even though CERN has created particles of it, they have developed the technology-Antiproton Decelerator-which has the capability to create antimatter in large quantities. Who knows, maybe they have already created large quantities.

Now even though this is an amazing step forward for us, it also raises the serious question of,

Will it be used solely for the good of humankind or will it fall into the wrong hands and become the most deadly weapon ever made?

Sorry if I've bored you all. I find it fascinating.

[weirdo79]

1. Evolution has the key part that creationism doesnt.....Evidence.....(please dont quote apologetic's websites as they've never used confirmed science....gee I wonder why....)

2. Weedracer you contradicted yourself several times with your proclamations of our impending punishment(while claiming you dont judge...) by a fairy tale character made up of an amalgam of every major "white" religion in history.....Fluffy white robe beard....It's not god its Zeus...No Wait It's Odin.....Oh wait wasnt Ragnarok supposed to have already happened? My bad.

Hopefully logic will pull you through that post and you'll understand what exactly in your post I was referring too. ;)

[SpiritualExcess]

Okay guys, I'm so effing high, but I think I've got the answer... Okay... things which exist today had to have had a beginning right? matter, time, the universe. So God must have a beginning ergo a creator... BUT God created, along with matter , and the universe also created time... So before that, things wouldn't be able to be measured temporally, because time just didn't exist.

And another thing... If God is infinite, then God is infinitely old, but God is also infinitely young.
lol man i'm not sure if any of that shit makes sense.

[SpiritualExcess]

er so i mean God wouldn't have a creator because got wouldn't have a beginning, because beginnings wouldn't exist, because time hadn't been invented yet.

[beachguy in thongs]

Who named God?

[beachguy in thongs]

Not his name, but God, who called him "God"?

[beachguy in thongs]

Would it be Mary's grandmother?

[beachguy in thongs]

Yeah, here's my son...God.

[SpiritualExcess]

huh?

[Juggalotus17]

If you really don't believe in God, go see somebody who's met him. I've been 100% convinced of God's existance. You may call it blind faith, but its not. The proof is all around you. You may say science contradicts God, but who created physics, evolution, etc?

Also, I found this tidbit on how it's been scientificly proven that God exists. I never read the whole thing but its rather interesting. It even shows how molecular structures are so perfect that only God, or a very intelligent being created the universe.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html

[Juggalotus17]

..............

Now that I think about it, everyone here should be 100% convinced in God's existance.

FOR ONLY GOD CAN CREATE A PLANT SO BEAUTIFUL AND LOVING FOR THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALL OF EXISTANCE TO UTILIZE AND LOVE BACK.

[beachguy in thongs]

If Mary is Jesus's Mother and he's the Son of God, then Mary's grandmother, okay, it would've been Jesus' Grandmother. Thanks for the note , Spirit (I had a band in high school called Spiritual Exposure).

[nomadherbman]

ya "god" exist... theres definatly a higher energy out there....but "god" as far as religion goes, does not exist...

and jesus is not "gods" son, tho a brilliant man with a unique and good outlook on life...

i believe we are "god" our spirits... everyone of us is made of energy....this energy affects everything we do, and even the Universe..." study was done that predicted that Washington,(highest murder rate in the country) would have a significant drop in crime over the summer.. due to 4,000 people from all over the world meditating in the same place, in washington.. The police Chief said that the only way crime would stop over the summer would be 3 feet of snow...crime lowerd by 23%..
http://www.alltm.org/pages/crime-arrested.html

there's too many contradictions for "god" in the eyes of religion to be true and real..

the universe didn't just pop out of no where for no reason, but a man with a white beard sitten up in heaven sure as hell didnt create it..

[SpiritualExcess]

Yah, that person would be Jesus' grandmother.

I believe that Jesus is God's son. Sometimes what that means varies for me, but I do believe that all people are daughters and sons of God.

[beachguy in thongs]

Question is who is God's Mom?

[beachguy in thongs]

Who created God's Mom? Adam's Great-Grandmother?

[mellow mood]

here is the proof god doesnt exist:

-our pityful lives are all meaningless, and if there would be a god he would be meaningless too coz all leads to nothing, so why would there be a god.

-if god is so bright why the hell would he be watchin us die and kill ourselves, etc etc etc

-if god would exist, he would proly let us know so the world would go better, instead of relying on some bible wrote 200 years ago that nobody can really say it is all true.

-if there would be a god, he would have to be all, so we would be all a part of god. which means everything is god, but universe is growing, expanding than regressing to nothing. which means if theres nothing at all, if all is nothing, how can there be a god.

-how can god always have existed? who decided to create him?


ALL THIS can be a proof of god non-existence.

beleiving in god is only a decision based on your beleifs. you cant say it exist or not, coz u never talked to him just like anyone. i do not beleive in god, i beleive in myself.

[beachguy in thongs]

That's a pretty pessimistic view of the world. There are people out there doing amazing things. You have to understand our time on earth isn't anything compared to the history of Earth. When there were dinosaurs, do you think they received signs from God and followed them? God saves us and, people say, Jesus saves us every day. Just like God kills them by ordering one of his other children to put a bullet in the guys head.

[RedRainDrop]

wow sometimes i amaze myself

lol, i know we post the dumbest shit when we are high dude.

[MrsDarkIdol]

Well said Nomadherbman, my thoughts exactly. And it makes perfect sense.
I believe the very earth is alive, with all of her energy, and everything is connected through this.

[6 Point Joint]

im comin up with something........

[6 Point Joint]

the way i see it, we die and then we get to view our whole lives and we would think what we shoulda and woulda did with our life and view others lives that we knew through our journey through earth kinda likewatchin your life on dvd and when u get tired of watchin yourself or others u get up and get coffee. im really high but it makes sense when blazed

[Juggalotus17]

here is the proof god doesnt exist:

-our pityful lives are all meaningless, and if there would be a god he would be meaningless too coz all leads to nothing, so why would there be a god.

-if god is so bright why the hell would he be watchin us die and kill ourselves, etc etc etc

-if god would exist, he would proly let us know so the world would go better, instead of relying on some bible wrote 200 years ago that nobody can really say it is all true.

-if there would be a god, he would have to be all, so we would be all a part of god. which means everything is god, but universe is growing, expanding than regressing to nothing. which means if theres nothing at all, if all is nothing, how can there be a god.

-how can god always have existed? who decided to create him?


ALL THIS can be a proof of god non-existence.

beleiving in god is only a decision based on your beleifs. you cant say it exist or not, coz u never talked to him just like anyone. i do not beleive in god, i beleive in myself.

It's really unfortunate that you think this way. :(

1) Where's the proof that all leads to nothing?

2) Contrary to what most people think, God does not want us to be religious. Jesus did not come to establish a religion. Indeed, He abhorred the religion of His day, which had been corrupted by the rules of men. God wants us to love Him. He has given us free will so that we can love. Love is always a choice. If we were all made the same, like robots, we could do all the works God required. However, we could never love Him. My computer does exactly what I tell it to do, but it does not love me or satisfy my need for love. Our responsibility in life is to choose whether or not we wish to love God. He has promised if we love Him, he will give us a place to live with Him through all eternity (heaven). If we choose not to love God, we will spend eternity separated from God, in eternal punishment.

3) It's called faith. This brings us back to free will.... God created us so we could have the choice of believing or not believing. If you simply believe in Him, then once you meet him you'll be granted an eternal life at peace. Most think if you don't believe, you'll be shunned away (hell)... Honestly, I just think God embraces you the same, but lets you feel all the guilt inside once you know the truth.... That being your own personal punishment.

Also, the bible isn't all true. It was written by power hungry, backstabbing, GREEDY men. The original apostles of Jesus wrote it, making Jesus out to be the best. Jesus was just a man, who had a connection with God. Maybe he was an angel in human form? But throughout the years the corrupt church changed the bible to fit their best interests.

4) We currently know there were at least 10 dimensions of time/space at the creation of the universe. Three of these dimensions (plus time) formed the space-time manifold that we can directly observe. The other six of these dimensions exist within the universe as incredibly compact dimensions of space. God must be able to operate in all of those ten dimensions plus more in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews suggests God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us.

The God of the Bible is described as omnipotent. If God were confined to three dimensions of space and one dimension of time, then He could be in only one place at one time. The God of the Bible is described as knowing all that we do. We can hide nothing from God. A three-dimensional God would not have the ability to see through walls (Can you?) and could not know what happens outside of his sight.


5) And finally we know God, if there is one, exists outside of this Universe. On a different plane of existance, where our physical bounds and limits do not occur. There doesn't need to be cause and effect where God resides and operates.

[mellow mood]

how can i be sure all leads to nothing? ask yourself the question bro: u die, u go to heaven? then? u are happy? and?

u can ask this question forever. u see my meaning to life is to be happy and make ppl happy. but this doesnt mean it leads to something u see, coz i know we will eventually all die, that our planet will eventually die, and so the universe will.

all leads to nothing, doesnt mean all is nothing, just mean all is nonsense. now i have to find a meaning in this nonsense. thats the way i think in any case.

[mikeo14]

heres your choice you can be an "inderpendent guy who says nuu uh! i dun belive in no gods" and get sent to hell or you can just belive in him and go to heaven the worst that can happen if you belive in him is it will be true there isnt ago and you will experience the same feeling you had before you were born...utter black nothingness but as for me I think these nothing you got to lose by beliving in jesus, however if u dont belive in him and it ends up being true he exist well your screwed where all you independence as a non-beliver for the rest of eternity to sum it all up - belive in god and you wont burn forever you have nothing to lose

[mrdevious]

where is it proven that any area of existence has to exist for a reason?

[dirty raider]

Firstly I wouldn't describe myself as religious, I'd say agnostic but open minded.

The point of why would suffering occur if god existed, well surely then if god merely prevented everything negative then free will wouldn't exist. God is merely a guiding force who some people choose to ignore. Also without pain the concept of pleasure has no meaning.

No matter what your outlook you have to admit in general religion has plenty of positive messages, honesty, respect to name a few.

The point that the world and the human body is so well designed that it must have been devine intervention I believe is flawed. If the universe is infinite (I don't believe it is but thats not the point) then the laws of probability is that somewhere there will be the perfect series of events which bring about the existence of the human race.

I personally don't see how people can be so dismissive of something which has no evidence to the disprove it.

[mrdevious]

I personally don't see how people can be so dismissive of something which has no evidence to the disprove it.

Because, for the 1000th time in these forums; nobody can disprove that gravity isn't invisible fairies rotating the planet through shear fairy power. every imaginable concept for the nature of the universe could not be disproven if it were made it the main human belief. including that guy we use to explain it called God.

[dirty raider]

Gravity at least is understood and proven, so whilst the idea of magical fairys could be true there is at least evidence which would suggest otherwise.

The Bible if taken not quite as literally does tend to agree with science on a fair few points e.g The idea of let there be light is very easy to imagine refering to the big bang and the order which god created the various things on the planet such as the land and seas is actually pretty accurate as well, also it has been proven that all human life can be traced back to one woman.

[mrdevious]

Gravity at least is understood and proven, so whilst the idea of magical fairys could be true there is at least evidence which would suggest otherwise.


gravity is somewhat understood, but far from proven. the whole theory on bending space time, which is (in simplistic terms) how gravity works, is only the most valid theory, first proposed by Einstein (newtons theories were just a basic first step).

but the fact remains, there's still many things we do not understand in the universe, including gravity by 100% at one time, and everything that we used to never understand and still don't, is attributed to god by default until we prove otherwise, which is an incredibly flawed approach.

[NightProwler]

i hate god.

[ermitonto]

I concur. If God existed, I would hate him. In the words of Mikhail Bakunin: "If God is, man is a slave; now, man can and must be free; then, God does not exist...A jealous lover of human liberty, and deeming it the absolute condition of all that we admire and respect in humanity, I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/godandstate/godandstate_ch1.html

[F L E S H]

I concur. If God existed, I would hate him. In the words of Mikhail Bakunin: "If God is, man is a slave; now, man can and must be free; then, God does not exist...A jealous lover of human liberty, and deeming it the absolute condition of all that we admire and respect in humanity, I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/godandstate/godandstate_ch1.html
You know man, I was never religious at all, but I didn't care what other people ever believed in. As time goes by, I'm beginning to see and realize how religion is really so much more harmful than people think. Its ultimate goal is to lift Responsibility off the shoulders of humankind and place it on some imaginary being, no matter wht the religion. Instead, it is human intellect and conscience and resaon that should be idolized. We can fix everything ourselves, we don't need some imaginary omnipotent being to do anything for us.

[beachguy in thongs]

God has a sense of humor and is laughing his ass off at us, right now.

[papaw]

I've thought about this long and hard, and I've came up with the only logical conclusion. I am God. I am the only thing that exists in the world as I know it. Weed, earth, the universe, and you and everyone you love are only figments of my imagination. I'm not all that smart, because I haven't learned to manipulate my own thoughts yet, but that is okay because I have eternity to figure it out. I hope that I don't imagine that anyone is insulted by this and then posts imaginary responses that criticize my holiness. Now, I'm going to concentrate on believing that my imaginary computer is really an imaginary pile of some really great imaginary grass. Then I will smoke it and imagine that I'm really stoned. Thus, all things only exist in my omnipotent mind. Hence, not only does God exist, but I am now imagining that I have just revealed myself to all my imaginary friends (you guys). All you figments of my imagination should feel free to send your imaginary money to me, just like you do for my mental creation that I like to call Tammy Faye Baker. It all makes perfect sense to me now, and I will imagine that your fake asses also understand it as clearly. God (me) I feel so much better now.

[ermitonto]

So you're a solipsist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism)? I know for a fact that I'm not a figment of your imagination, but I have no way of proving it, just like I have no way of proving to myself that you aren't just a figment of my imagination. But for the sake of convenience (and sanity), I like to assume that I'm not the only entity in the universe.

[beachguy in thongs]

What's up, Papaw, you're not alone.

[Nero]

Papaw you are right, everything you see is a figment of your imagination. The important thing to keep in mind is that your imagination is based off of your interpertation of the world around you, thats what makes people unique.

[weirdo79]

Here's some interesting things that have a relation to the foundation of organized religion as a whole.

1. There is no such things as beginnings and ends , they are human conceptions. A way for us to label things so that we can comprehend without confusion. Absolutely nothing we have ever learned has led us to believe that something can actually be created from nothing. They can be transmuted but everything was always here. For those that claim there is a beginning and an end , think smaller. Less Macro more micro then maybe you'll see the "light"......

2. Religious people KNOW their god exists, However these same people usually laugh at others who talk of werewolves, aliens etc. Despite the fact that humans have been born feral with tons of hair (thus starting the myth) also there is a disease called lycanthropy look it up.....Aliens also have enough physical evidence to "convict a man of murder in court"(for an analogy of amount of evidence) however people are still called crazy.

3. Often people say god spoke to them or they met it. Why does it(not he it doesnt have a sex stop calling it he people) not show itself to all to save us all , since it will save you personally why would it not save ANY of us atheists....not one.....But, it'll show you , just not us....I guess it's like tinkerbell you gotta believe.....

4. All gods are derived from previous ones lets look at a timeline shall we and maybe you can pick up some similarities :). Zeus,white beard, manly man, white robe Smites evildoer's and punishes but also has human characteristics such as jealousy etc. Odin, White beard, manly man, grey robe, Smites evildoer's and punishes but also has human characteristics (mostly rage big theme in Celtic and Norse myths). Now Yahweh/Jehovah/allah/blah/blah/blah, White beard , Manly man, white robe, Smites evildoer's and punishes but also has human characteristics mainly Jealousy , greed, Spitefulness (and pretty much every one of the seven deadly sins except gluttony(no need to eat he he)...Ah irony at its finest). If you dispute any of those emotional descriptions if "he's" your god well read your bible then ;). Especially Romans, Leviticus, Exodus and even Joshua...(there are worse but those are some fine overall neutral examples).

And of course just for Kicks the .....
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

(brought to you by the lovely makers of evilbible)

(just as to the imagination thing, the only problem with that entire hypothesis is that (not to be hostile) if I rip your heart out you will hurt , you will die. Your imagination cannot kill you. (Fear can from a heart attack, but thats not your imagination thats your pulmonary/respiratory system). Also A healthy adult will never be 'scared' to death. Their heart is simply too strong. So I just dont buy the arguement that we could all be the figments of someones imagination. Occam's Razor, its possible but is it plausible? Not even in the least in any way shape or form :).

But hey its possible im a purple monkey sitting in a dishwasher naked masturbating whilst I type, but once again is it plausible? No. Fun discussion well baked on a hill with friends (either the imagination or the masturbating purple monkey ;) ) but seriously considering it. No thanks Id rather consider that religious people might be right in even some small way.(which is about as plausible as the purple monkey too ;) ).

(sorry for ranting he he)

[ermitonto]

2. Religious people KNOW their god exists, However these same people usually laugh at others who talk of werewolves, aliens etc. Despite the fact that humans have been born feral with tons of hair (thus starting the myth) also there is a disease called lycanthropy look it up.....Aliens also have enough physical evidence to "convict a man of murder in court"(for an analogy of amount of evidence) however people are still called crazy.

Lycanthropy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycanthropy) as a disease is a condition in which a patient believes he is transformed into an animal and behaves accordingly.

And where is this mountain of evidence for aliens? I don't mean anecdotes, but real hard physical evidence that can't have possibly been fabricated by earthly means. As Carl Sagan put it, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[weirdo79]

1993 Nasa and the Air Force went public on CNN in late August of that year. The clips are usually replayed on most extraterrestial shows on discovery as well as the space network including talks with leading scientists (not fringers...) that have been asked to examine "implants" which have been catalogued quite extensively as not being of human origin (we cannot implant materials in a human body nor even create them naturally within our bodies without a human immuno response, These implants all share a few common characteristics, they give off an energy signal electro magnetic, measurable, and not just the materials natural fields. They are always in the body with zero immune response and rarely scarring (most of the reported scarring isnt actually where the implants are found, I can't say why , but I could assume if I wished from available evidence that they were tissue samples(the scars), it's once again what we do, Most implants are found in the nose or Nasal cavity(most not all of course), If you need hard evidence your not going to find more than declassified doc's on the net(or by travelling personally to view one of the many scientists with the "jars" full of the implants you see on these shows occasionally,considering research projects and concerns over funding they may be a bit busy if you can't pay for their time so maybe an email,as websites are "hardly" proof to most people even if they include hard evidence that would be in a book as well), Nasa isnt in the habit of keeping avi files onhand of things they've since retracted (as soon as bush got in no less.....) There's many more similarities if you'de like to see the episodes of those and arent in Canada I suggest searching Klite for "space network"(or of course discovery) and just ignoring the series shows and concentrate on the one shot episodes about extraterrestials, I've never seen one without a clear title, so I doubt it'll be hard to tell the difference between "abduction" and "farscape" he he). I'm sure you could do the same for the American Sci Fi network but since I dont watch it I wouldnt want to assume what shows exactly are shown on it.

Nasa also has hundreds of radio transmission logs which are public I dont know how you would interpret the following line from an astronaut walking on the moon. "They're on the horizon , just sitting there houston, It's a bit unnerving. (houston) "how many" (astronaut) "about 12 just sitting on the horizon occasionally moving away then back again" (houston) "ignore it go about your mission, orders to follow" (p.s it wasnt armstrong but it was a friend of his....). These transmissions were picked up by hundreds of radio stations and cb's across the north american continent on a regular basis, Ask someone who lives near a launch area and has for awhile parents if they remember listening to NASA launches back in the day. Even all the boring little details.

Then there is the astronauts over 50% of them have gone public despite the fact they have much to lose, respect in their community , government support(they are after all technically violating chain of command silence orders). Not to mention a plethora of High Ranking officials.

But honestly when the guy from NASA held up the baggy with a broken looking chunk of black metal and said this was not manufactured by any human hand nor in a planet's atmosphere (apparently according to NASA scientists anyway but pshaw what do they know), That kind of freaked me the hell out, even though I believe in aliens I would never imagine the government would admit it so blatantly. But then I look at what they've done in the past and all the declassified documents and ya think its not that big of a surprise actually.

If all of that is circumstantial for ya (after watching those programs and hearing the astronauts pilots etc, who are basically risking their retirements). Just look up declassified documents from any number of the wonderful government agencies which much to their chagrin after a number of years have to allow the public access to things once marked top secret. May I suggest Naval and Air Force for the most part for numbers, They are after all the most likely to spot them so it does make sense. But hey a huge number of american pilots seeing craft doing on the dime turns at much more than 3000 mph's naw thats just hearsay I guess, Thats probably why they're told to shut up about it and the documents are classified(for a couple decades usually).

Or you could ask the office for scientific research for a report of their journals it might cost a bit but you'de have hard copy of thousands of investigated incidents :).

http://www.osironline.org (or it might be free I'm not sure :) or at least cost you only printer paper).

Alone I wouldnt consider any of it perfect evidence but I've got motive , oppurtunity and a murder weapon with matching finger prints and DNA I'm pretty sure I know who did it.

Also I shouldnt mention this as it isnt really of import to anyone but me. But I watched the lights over Phoenix a thousand times as it was replayed for months as the world held its collective breath. Then poof everyone forgot about it.....Guess it was flares, just like the gov and news channels said, I especially loved the close up shots of the triangular flares with the bright lights underneath the large metallic body. Wish I had a flare like that, Especially the part where they vanished into the horizon after moving slowly over the city. Those were the coolest flares I've ever seen. (and if it was experimental military tech why havent they used it in combat since they obviously have worked the bugs out if they were just "experimental planes" over phoenix). The military tried that explanation out too....problem is they couldnt back it up so went back to the "flare" story.

(p.s the NASA guy specifically stated when he held up that baggy that the molecules combined to make that metal would have to be 1. made outside of a planet's atmosphere and 2. Would require us if we were to try and duplicate the compound to use enough power to power our entire planet for 3 years).

But once again I reitierate do I know any of the "aliens" or governements motives for sure...nope. But hey I do know they exist , just like I know O.J. did it ;). (nothing's 100% of course but hey thats how science works, better than religions 0% ;) ).

Hope that provides enough "hard" evidence. Unless you require a personal meeting with some sort of alien or retired astronaut. I dont have that kind of influence ;) , In fact if you can arrange it for ME , Id be more than happy :). Cuz Id kill for the chance (not literally but figuratively of course). Unless you find out Aliens ARE hostile then please no meetings ;).

(ended with levity in case it seems like i'm droning).

(I also already knew what lycanthropy was , I'm aware its a mental disorder as is vampirism, which have existed with us as a species for a long time, I was pointing out how natural things give rise to myths.....So I'm completely at a loss as to why you felt the need to explain it to me)

You might also want to rethink the Carl Sagan quote just because claiming alien existence isnt in anyway extraordinary except to those who think were alone and usually the centre of the universe, Extraordinary is claiming invisible being live in the sky smiting evil doers ;)