SUBSTITUTION: tips, tricks and guidelines

[IamN2pot]

SUBSTITUTION: Tips, tricks and guidelines by N2

Invest a few bucks in a human digital thermometer. They are fast and accurate. I cannot over emphasize the importance of PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE!!! If you use condoms, be sure you use NON-lubricated condoms and rinse the condom to remove the powder from it. You can also use a well rinsed, 2 oz shampoo bottle (travel size). Now that you have your digital thermo and condoms/shampoo bottle, start practicing by filling your chosen container with 105 degree water. If using a condom, fold the loaded condom over the tip of the digital thermo to take its temp. If using a plastic bottle, place the tip of the thermometer directly into the water. Place the bottle/condom in your crotch. (Two pair of tighty whityâ??s holds it in place better and adds extra insulation to maintain the temp) In my experience, I find the water/pee container crotched inside your briefs, cools at a rate of about 1 degree every 2-3 minutes until it stabilizes at about 94-98 degrees. DO NOT plan on using toilet/bathroom water to cool it down. Most testing joints color their toilet water blue to foil using it, and if they hear you turn on the sink water or flush the john before you give them your sample, they may require you to re-submit or fail you. If your sample is to warm when you get it in the cup, simply swish it around in the cup while you blow on it. You can cool it at a rate of about 1 degree every 30 seconds, but don't over do it. PRACTICE! You can't re-warm it at that point. In the reverse, I find I can warm a substitute urine product from my pocket temp of 85-88 to 96-98 in about 20 minutes with body heat by crotching the container. The test cup temp strip is attached to the cup just like they are stuck to the side of a fish aquarium. The temp strip will read from 90-100 (some non-DOT require 94-100) so you can see your pee temp and cool it if necessary before you give it to the collector. One more tip. If you are using a condom, I don't tie the end of the condom. It is too risky in my humble opinion (IMHO) to try to puncture it to get your pee out. I take the condom with my 2+ ounces of pee in it and give it a spin, like you would a bread bag. Then double it over itself and use a wire tie (trash bag/bread bag type tie) with the ends rolled over them selves (to prevent puncture) and twist it tight to close the condom. To empty your condom, simply untwist the wire tie and let the condom untwist. Then place the open end of the condom in the cup and empty it. Check the temp on the side of the cup, and give it to the collector. Once again let me say PRACTICE. Practice carrying it in your crotch, practice emptying it into the cup, etc, just practice.

Men: IMHO the best place/way to crotch and carry the 2oz shampoo bottle/condom is to place it between your scrotum and anus. If you have any question as to where this spot is, stand up with your feet shoulder width apart. Reach down with your hand and cup your testicals. Note where your bird and ring fingers are touching. That is where you want to carry the bottle. It this position I find you can carry on about your activities normally while maintaining a 94-95 degree sample temp. To raise the sample temp to 97-98, simply sit down and cross you legs so that the container is enclosed between your thighs. It about 10-15 minutes the sample will warm to body temp, 97-98.

Women: You can of course carry a substitute sample the same as the men, but post by females write that it is also easy to carry the bottle inside your vaginal cavity, where it will maintain a 98 degree sample temp or you can use two 1oz bottles and place one under each breast, held in place with a well padded bra for added insulation in maintaining the temp.

Please remember that these suggestions are just guidelines and may need to be slightly modified to suit your particular need and comfort. The key to successfully substituting is to PRACTICE.

[IamN2pot]

I forgot to attach a picture of 3 travel size shampoo bottles. N2

[peji]

Thanks for the info N2.

[IamN2pot]

I need to add that for human urine, the sample should be used within 8 hours at room/body temp. If you need to store it longer, it can be kept frozen in an air tight container for up to 1 year. To thaw and warm, use warm water. N2

[KillerJupe]

why... what happens if it isn't used within 8hours? will it oxidize?? what if its air tight??

[mark peralez]

thnx for the tips n2pot.well said my friend.this will help keep the pot smoking brotherhood (and sisterhood),alive and out of harms way to ensure longetivity of the movement.long live the doobie brothers..............

[IamN2pot]

Killer, you ask a question that I still have no scientific answer for. I do know from my own experments that after 8 hours the smell is RANK!, and at 24-48 hours stuff will start to grow on top of the sample. As for an air tight container, all I can say is if you keep meat or mayo at room temp for 8 hours, reguardless of the type container, you risk serious food poisening. I would guess that after 8 hours that the bacteria level in the urine may effect the pH and creatinine levels. So I simply repeate what folk in the urine selling business tell me. But please, feel free to call a few urine vendors yourself, ask them and report back to the board. N2

[potwoman]

N2, you rock. I read and re-read your tips and guidelines, most of all the part about PRACTICE! Also found great containers and plastic funnels at The Container Store. I practiced walking with that little bottle in my panties, yes, just 'crotched' it, did not insert the bottle into vaginal cavity, and maintained temp at 94. Though I did not see any evidence of temperature testing at the lab. Practiced pouring the substitute into the cup without fumbling and all went well. I started my new job yesterday, and was able to enjoy my last days of freedom flying high! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

[19grandjoint]

Hello,

I was browsing through this message board because
like so many others, I have a drug SCREEN coming up
and I am afraid of failing. I want to commmend you
for giving such good and what seems to be heartfelt
advise. I know that all you can possibly do is advise
me on how to pass this test but I just have a few
questions for you that I sincerely hope you can help
with.

But first let me explain my situation.

To be frank with you, i almost never smoke marijuana.
I smoked abt a thumbnail of weed late night on the
twentieth of may. This was the first time ive smoked
in abt 4 months and before that i cant even remember.
Let's put it this way. I smoked twice in 2.5 years!
The last time was on may 20th and i would say it was a
mediocre high. i took abt 2.5 full deep pulls of the
joint and 5 or 6 light ones.

I am overweight but def not obese..i started reading
up on ways to pass the test...many ppl ive spoken
too feel that i am too infrequent of a user for it to
be detected...whats your opinion. There are AT LEAST
10 days between the day i smoked and the day im
planned to take test. ( it could be more days) WHat do
u think are my chances of passing.

I plan to drink abt 8 glasses of water the morning of
the test, eat a lot of red meat to make sure my
creatinine levels remain in range and take a vitamin b
complex to make sure pee is on the yellow side. do u
think those are enough precautions...i realy feel that
i am too nervous for substituting.

SO BASICALLY:

1. do u think im doing enough? (drink water morn of,
vit b for color and red meat for creatinine.)
-

2. Is there a difference between a drug SCREEN and
drug test? ex. drawing blood instead of getting urine,
etc. im getting drug screen. they instructed me to
clal the health dpet of my frim and tell them i need
to locate a lab to do drug testing. What do uyou know
abt drug screens?

3. i hear that working out strenuously and making sure
to flush out your system is the best (and some say
only) way to rid urself of metabolites. is it wise
for me to start exercising so close to test time being
that speeding my metabolism so close to test might
make metabolites more detectable.

please help! what are my chances in your opinion????
THANK YOU SO MUCH

[IamN2pot]

Just bumping this back to the current page on the board.
Hope it helps.
:!)
N2

[iamsoscared]

I have a pre-employment urine screen on Monday (tomorrow) and I do not know what time I have to go, they are just going to call me and let me know when so it could be several hours.

My plan is to collect my daughts clean urine and put it in a condom, place a hand warmer on my undies, and wear it till I get the call which could be several hours. I have been practicing this method and with a digital therm I get a reading of 94 - 97 and seems to cool quickly. With the forehead type therm I get a reading of 100. what is the deal with that? I am so nervouse about temp already. What should I do, put it in hot water till I get to the facility then "crotch it" (externally). Then cool it off it is too warm? Does the temp strip on the canister stay at the first temp it registers or does it register temp as it cools? Leaving it in the fridge is not an option, I will be at my current job and can not get home before the test. What to do, What to do?
So I have thought of vaginally carrying a 2 oz bottle, but how long could I keep that inserted considering that I have a few hours before the test. Would it maintain the exact temperature without having to warm it at all? or should I keep it warm someother way until I get close to the facility then insert it, how long will it take to become body temp? Please help me, I am so desperate. Thank you

[IamN2pot]

Pre warn the sample either before leaving or on the way. A cup of hot water or coffee is a good heat source. Once inside you. the temsp will maintain about 96-97 degrees. You need to practice with your 2oz container and water!!!
but PRACTICE!!!
:!)
N2

[gdubstone]

diluted first, had to retest. Got some synthetic urine at a "record store" not diluted, it was ready out of the bottle. It had a temp strip on it, but I used a digital baby thermometer anyway, which was MUCH more accurate. If you're gonna spend $40 on fake pee, spend a few $ on this. I used a small coffee to heat up the bottle to 100, transferred to the washed trojan red, let it cool a bit to 98 degrees (I practiced all this part about 10 times with plain water the night before) twisted up, folded and twited end with a twist-tie and kept it jocked between scrotum and anus. It was not bad at all, and I felt very confident since I had practiced.

It all went smooth, and this one came back a PASS and I got my job. A little reading, and about $50 worth of supplies helped me get a $15,000 pay raise.

Thanks N2, you are the man. We toasted you with some smoke last night!

[Killa.Kali]

Rum Extract and water at a 1:3 ratio in a little nasal spray bottle, tucked one between my nuts for years :cool: god it sucked to walk around school lol

[sneakAtoke]

i did this monday but i made 1 mistake, i used a lubricated rubber and
didnt rince it out, so what will likely happen to the test? was DOT test

[Burnt Toast]

*BUMP*

[MaryJane25]

My fiance had a drug test today. He drank ZyDot (hopefully it works, but it keeps you in the bathroom for sure, not to pee...) anyway, I got a sample from my younger brother and we put it in a rubber, then all was going well until he was in the bathroom at the clinic... He got to go in there unsupervised which was our dream come true until he punctured the rubber with a toothpick (toothpick, my idea, some places have a metal detector wand, and I am paranoid) well, not sure what happened but maybe he squeezed too hard and it busted!!!!!!!!!!! He had to pee on his own and clean the mess up in a hurry!! Still hoping for good results, worried about the creatine level though, we read here that it could be significantly lowered on the ZyDot drink (almost ALL of the drinks). Watch your grip fellas, or you'll bust your rubber!!!!!!!LOL Oh yeah, wish him luck, we'll know in about 2-3 days about the outcome.

[MaryJane25]

Me again!! He failed the drug test....:( We have noticed that the best thing to do to pass is not to smoke. Nothing is 100%, except that whole thing with the tubing and the shut off valve looks like it would work, but I'm sure even those have failed also... Damn, this is depressing ... I just don't understand why it's not just legalized!!! I really feel the pee test is very Nosey, the saliva test is only from the last week or two isn't it? I think that would make more sense. It's not fair that if you smoke on your own time you can't get keep (or get) a good job. It doesn't mean you go to work High!!! That is so unfair, not that the law will change just cause "I" think it should, it just sucks. We followed the ZyDot instructions and it didn't pull thru, N2 has the BEST way, with a substitute in a rubber. DON'T USE ZYDOT unless you really don't give a shit what your results are!!!

[crf250smoker]

does it matter if ur a guy and use a girls piss for a test?

[Burnt Toast]

Nope. Gender is irrelevant when analyzing for drugs. Any human sample can be used as long as the person is drug-free and not overhydrated.

[crf250smoker]

thanks, that just makes it allot easyer for me to get clean urin

[bongomania]

the hypothetical has a possibility of happening that a dude has a chick give him urine so he can hide it and use it for his UA. They could find out that she's pregnant when she didn't kow it herself. And why all the discussion about the best way to cheat a drug test. Read Passing Drug Tests by Kenn A Biscranium and find out how to rapidly and healthfully detox for any random UA. It was written by a guy who smoked weed constantly while on parole and what he did to pass ALL of his random UA's :thumbsup: It was cowritten with a doctor of chemistry; it is absolutely accurate and very informative. And the Boulder Weekly said the book is "hilarious". Read it and pass all your drug tests from now on.

[Burnt Toast]

the hypothetical has a possibility of happening that a dude has a chick give him urine so he can hide it and use it for his UA. They could find out that she's pregnant when she didn't kow it herself. Pure ancient wives tale that goes back to the birth of workplace drug testing. It was often recited by goofy-looking antidrug "speakers" in an effort to discourage cheating the drug tests. I find it hilarious that theres many of the unwashed who still fall for this piece of propagandical BS.:rolleyes:

The thing is drug testing devices have no ability to determine pregnancy. They only determine the presence of drugs. The lab would have to use a testing device designed specifically to determine pregnancy. Pregnancy tests are totally outside the scope of drug testing, so therefore, labs operating in the US are prohibited by law to perform pregnancy tests on a urine sample collected for a drug test. Pregnancy tests can only be performed under a detailed written authorization by the donor.


And why all the discussion about the best way to cheat a drug test. Read Passing Drug Tests by Kenn A Biscranium and find out how to rapidly and healthfully detox for any random UA.

Why spend money on a book on passing drug tests when all of the information is found online for free?

The time spent on hawking books could be better utilized on researching how drug tests work and how testing devices work. This information can be found online by making some good use of your favorite search engine (its your freind).

And its all free :thumbsup:

[bongomania]

you're absolutely correct that a drug test will not determine pregnancy, but they could check the urine with a pregnancy test. and guess what? they can and do do that if they want to. And you said don't buy a book because all the information is free? Not all this info is valid. Nor or all the answers someone is looking for here. It amazes me how many people think if they read something online it's absolute truth. HA! Burnt toast stop acting like you're a genius and know everything because you don't.

[bongomania]

I was trying to make the point that it is not smart to rely on cheating a drug test (which is a felony in some states) when anyone can learn how to rapidly detox very safely by reading a book Passing Drug Tests. But burnttoast thinks all books are a waste of money becasue the internet is LOADED with information on how to rapidly and healthfully detox the body for a random UA... Oh no wait a minute, there is almost nothing to be found about how to use bentonite, cayenne, milk thistle, burdock root, and many other facts that is HILARIOUS to read! Yo burtntoast your parents are absolute failures at raising decent human beings.

[bongomania]

I can't find any info on how narangin affects the liver for detoxification. burnt toast says that all needed information is right here on line. Narangin is a chemical found in grapefruit. Come on burntface tell me how it affects the body!!!

[Burnt Toast]

you're absolutely correct that a drug test will not determine pregnancy, but they could check the urine with a pregnancy test. and guess what? they can and do do that if they want to. The law says they can't. The regulations are also available online. See them for yourself.
And you said don't buy a book because all the information is free? Not all this info is valid. Nor or all the answers someone is looking for here. What makes you think the book your hawking contains valid information? Can you provide some additional sources which can indepenantly corroborate the info contained in that book as valid? Just because that book was written by a set of people with med credos doesnt make it any more credible. Unless theres independant evidence that can support it.
It amazes me how many people think if they read something online it's absolute truth.Its amazing to me of the wonderful facts that can be found online. For example, the regulations set by the Dept of Health & Human Services. And the regulations set by the Dept of Transportation. And once again, its free.
Is that wonderful? :D


Burnt toast stop acting like you're a genius and know everything because you don't. Jealousy is such a bad thing. :rolleyes:
Instead of jabbing me, you too can be a "genius" by doing your research. As the old salt goes: Knowledge equals power. Arm yourself with the knowledge of how drug testing works, the regulations and protocols that must be followed by all practicing labs, and most importantly your rights as a donor. Yes, donors facing a pre-employment drug test have rights. Donors can be entitled to civil damages if a lab chooses to violate those rights.

Knowledge equals power
Know your rights

And one more time, the info can be found online by making use of your favorite search engine. And its free.

[Burnt Toast]

there is almost nothing to be found about how to use bentonite, cayenne, milk thistle, burdock root, and many other facts that is HILARIOUS to read! I can't find any info on how narangin affects the liver for detoxification. burnt toast says that all needed information is right here on line. Narangin is a chemical found in grapefruit. Come on burntface tell me how it affects the body!!! If you further your research online (instead of flaming which BTW can get you banned), you'll discover that home remedies have no effects on ridding the body of THC.

And discussion of ingestible "remedies" are off-topic for this thread anyway.

[bongomania]

burntoast says that home remedies have no effect on ridding THC from the body.... ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Milk thistle contains silymarin which definitely helps, bentonite is excellent for detoxification, anything with polyphenols will overpower the inhibitors of cannabinol and cannabidiol will certainly help, garlic helps BOTH phases of the body's detoxification system. (hey burnttoast, did you even know the body has two separate phases to detox?) But what do I know, I read books and burnt toast thinks that is no way to get information. I also passed ALL of my random UA's while on parole and I NEVER subsituted or used a fake dick, and I smoked chronic just about every day. I learned how to detox the body naturally and rapidly. I learned from certified dieticians, nutritionists, personal trainers, and a guy who got his PhD magna cum lauda in analytical chemistry, who wrote his thesis paper on drug residues in the body. which all adds up to me knowing nothing because burnt toast says so.:thumbsup:

[Burnt Toast]

burntoast says that home remedies have no effect on ridding THC from the body.... ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Youre right. That was incorrect - I said "If you further your research online, you'll discover that home remedies have no effects on ridding the body of THC" - in other words, don't take my word for it. See it for yourself thru your research. Big difference.

Milk thistle contains silymarin which definitely helps, bentonite is excellent for detoxification, anything with polyphenols will overpower the inhibitors of cannabinol and cannabidiol will certainly help, garlic helps BOTH phases of the body's detoxification system. Out of respect for the original author of this thread (N2), and for the good of the board, discussions of this nature should happen in another thread pertaining to that matter, as its totally inapplicable to this thread about Substitution
I read books and burnt toast thinks that is no way to get information. And I merely stated "Why spend money on a book about passing drug tests when the information can be found online for free?" Of course this concept frustrates you - it frustrates all shills regardless of what theyre trying to hawk. To this I say: "Have some cheese to go with the sour grapes (*FFFT*)". Youre statement merely screams that you have no clue as to what I think.

I also passed ALL of my random UA's while on parole and I NEVER subsituted or used a fake dick, and I smoked chronic just about every day.Over the course of nearly two decades, I passed all of my UA's for employment (random, post-accident, RFFD, etc) by using variations of the substitution method. And I smoke EVERY day. Theres no better feeling in the world than showing up at the testing facility with a toasty buzz and grinning from ear to ear while you pour that sub'd sample in the collection cup. And walking out of that testing facility, still buzzed, feeling that you got the system by the gonads - all without any fear of getting caught. Because I am very familar as to how drug tests and testing labs work. Once you gain knowledge of the labs modus operandi, substitution can be a walk in the park - with a toasty buzz of course.
:stoned: :smokin: :rastasmoke:

[bodine18]

what temp does it need to be?

[Burnt Toast]

The acceptable temp range is between 90-100 deg for most specimen collections, but check your Chain of Custody form to be sure.

[FakeBoobsRule]

you're absolutely correct that a drug test will not determine pregnancy, but they could check the urine with a pregnancy test. and guess what? they can and do do that if they want to.
Burnt Toast is right and you are wrong. They cannot legally test a urine sample for pregnancy without consent. If they do you will own your employer. There are so many legal reasons why this has been established, mainly all falling under the blanket of protecting women from discrimination. Many bosses are not happy when they find out their female employees are pregnant. Some are old fashioned and this can be a problem with single mothers. What about if they find out before the woman actually finds out? What if she doesn't keep the baby? What if she was cheating on her husband and got pregnant and say he was away on military duty? Lawyers have protected us from having pregnancy tests run on drug testing samples.

Finally, bongomania you claim to have done all this research on the human body and detox and all this other crap. Your medical knowledge of the human body is quite limited. I shall prove it because you think that if a man submits a pregnant woman's urine for testing and they somehow break several federal laws and do a pregnancy on said sample then he will be busted. Well guess what. If a male submits a pregnant woman's urine and they run a pregnancy test on it, they will think he has prostate cancer and not that he gave a pregnant woman's sample. The same hormones that are elevated during pregnancy are elevated if a male has prostate cancer. Boooyahhhhh!!!!!

[IanCurtisWishlist]

hey,

aren't there like heating pads available? I had the idea of buying substitute urine and then putting it in a condom, stuffing it in my crotch with a heating pad like 30 minutes before the drug test. i basically am giving up on the dilution method because it will never work in my situation. soooo yeah. any ideas?

[pkash]

Hey, I have to take tests every week for this ADS bullshit, but anyways. I use a bottle with food colering + water and it works, but the only problem is it makes a little noise when I open the bottle. Is there any kind of bottle that wont make noise when I try and open it, and i can just like dump it in the cup. That would really help!

[longgonetx]

hey guys, im a med tech. yeah im the one who gets to play with pee for a living. fyi whatever company or po or whoever wants to test your urine isn't going to do any other test except the actual drug detection. pregnancy tests, comprehensive urinalysis, urine micro culture etc, are all expensive. real expensive. the whole point of companies drug testing is to cover their collective arses in case something happens at work while one is loaded. they need to show they exhibited due diligence in hiring a responsible employee and they don't want to spend one more penny than is necessary to limit their liability. po's don't have a budget and have no incentive to spend a fortune on extraneous testing. for pot, all these guys want is a marijuana screen test kit that reads negative, that's it. a couple of things that will get you tripped up: 1)as previously noted, have your sample at rm temp. probably the only check on your sample other than the actual test is when the nurse wraps her hand around your sample. if it warm and one is not acting fishy, her job is done. 2)other than that just think normal healthy urine. almost clear to your yellowish colors and no one is the wiser. as med techs we are supposed to smell our urine samples. that step gets skipped a lot for obvious reasons but if you have left your sample in the car all day and it smells like a bacterial culture we might notice and you don't want your sample to be noticed.
if it looks, feels, and smells like urine it must be urine. ok hope this helps

[deadhead65]

I'm hoping someone can help me here. My friend is definitely going to have to sub since no way could he pass a pee test in time. He is getting tested while he has a medical exam. I have read the tips to put the pee in his crotch to keep it warm and all that but I'm just wondering if anyone has ANY idea how the heck he can get away with this when it's also gonna be a medical exam where they'll most likely make him drop trou, hold his balls and have him cough.

Anyone have experience with this? Do they have you pee first, then do the exam 'cause that is the only way I can see him passing this thing.:wtf4:

[chantoke]

Killer, you ask a question that I still have no scientific answer for. I do know from my own experments that after 8 hours the smell is RANK!, and at 24-48 hours stuff will start to grow on top of the sample. As for an air tight container, all I can say is if you keep meat or mayo at room temp for 8 hours, reguardless of the type container, you risk serious food poisening. I would guess that after 8 hours that the bacteria level in the urine may effect the pH and creatinine levels. So I simply repeate what folk in the urine selling business tell me. But please, feel free to call a few urine vendors yourself, ask them and report back to the board. N2

just to comment on this--both human and synthetic urine are usually sterile when they come out. after about 8 hours though, bacteria can metabolize some of your waste products to create essentially a "fermented" cup.

[chantoke]

The same hormones that are elevated during pregnancy are elevated if a male has prostate cancer. Boooyahhhhh!!!!!

it's not prostate cancer, it's in certain subtypes of testicular cancer--embryonal and choriocarcinoma in particular. but drug techs aren't stupid. they would definitely ask you if you had substituted someone else's urine for your own. and if you deny it, you might have to deal with a doctor wanting to get an mri of your pelvis because of a suspicious lab test.

but bottom line is i agree with longonetx--they wouldn't run the test because it is an extra cost that wasn't ordered (ie your insurance or the hospital wouldn't pay for it). also the company is violating HIPPA rights if they do this and could be sued or even have their testing privileges suspended or revoked.

[pkash]

I was wondering if there is anything else to use to substitute in because bottles, you have to like un screw it and i get monitered, i want something that I can just like flip off or something, anyone have any good ideas?

[FakeBoobsRule]

just to comment on this--both human and synthetic urine are usually sterile when they come out. after about 8 hours though, bacteria can metabolize some of your waste products to create essentially a "fermented" cup.
Most synthetic urine is good beyond 8 hours. For example, Quick Fix has a shelf life of 18 months and can be heated and cooled repeatedly. It does not require refrigeration or freezing during storage. It will not "ferment." Human urine will start to break down around the 8 hour mark and after several more hours, depending on the urine and conditions, ammonia will form and can be detected. Room temperature storage is one of the advantages of Quick Fix.


it's not prostate cancer, it's in certain subtypes of testicular cancer--embryonal and choriocarcinoma in particular.
Ok, now you are just splitting hairs because elevated levels of HCG can be present in pregnancy, prostate, and testicular cancer as well as a couple of other conditions. Bottom line is employers can't test for for HCG during a drug test or any other hormones or even genetic testing because it is illegal. Right off the top of my head I can't think of any point during employment where you can be forced to submit to hormone or genetic testing. I am going to get more into this in a minute.


but drug techs aren't stupid. they would definitely ask you if you had substituted someone else's urine for your own.
It is not the job of the lab tech to interpret the results, that is what the Medical Review Officer (MRO) is for, who is not a tech but a doctor with a medical degree.

and if you deny it, you might have to deal with a doctor wanting to get an mri of your pelvis because of a suspicious lab test.
It will never get this far because it is illegal to perform hormone testing during a drug test. Period. Besides, most doctors I know would start with an ultrasound! :)


but bottom line is i agree with longonetx--they wouldn't run the test because it is an extra cost that wasn't ordered (ie your insurance or the hospital wouldn't pay for it). also the company is violating HIPPA rights if they do this and could be sued or even have their testing privileges suspended or revoked.
HIPPA was enacted in 1996 and mainly deals with health care privacy. I am almost 100% certain that the laws that prevent employers from performing hormonal testing on employees is covered by another act and has been on the books much much longer. It isn't just a violation to do such testing, it is against the law. It doesn't have to do with the extra cost either.

It is safe to use either gender urine as long as it is not dilute or dirty.

[chantoke]

a medical tech would still ask if the urine was your own if you're a guy and it came back with a positive hcg and you were still in the testing area. nurse would if she was the one who got the results. not saying what's supposed to happen, just what happens.

hcg is most frequently associated with the cancers i mentioned. not trying to be right, just telling you what it is. in a guy with hcg in his blood, the doc is gonna be worried about testicular cancer first thing.

i don't know about quick fix's "sterility" after 8 hours. in human urine, the excereted sugars are fermented by bacteria. not a lot unless you're diabetic. not sure what bacteria do with the other products, but if you say so.

HIPPA is current law. that's how lab policy in the united states is currently determined. there may have been earlier less well clearly spelled out precedents, but you have to stick with what's current in law.

[FakeBoobsRule]

Chantoke you really should stop posting incorrect information in the drug testing section. Giving people incorrect info on drug testing could have serious consequences because people's jobs, freedom, or children may be at stake.



a medical tech would still ask if the urine was your own if you're a guy and it came back with a positive hcg and you were still in the testing area. nurse would if she was the one who got the results. not saying what's supposed to happen, just what happens.

They cannot test for hcg during drug testing period. This would never happen under current laws. Besides, most drug tests that use lab equipment and not instant testing are not performed in the same location where the urine is collected. If you are still in the waiting area 2-5 days later, something is wrong.


hcg is most frequently associated with the cancers i mentioned. not trying to be right, just telling you what it is. in a guy with hcg in his blood, the doc is gonna be worried about testicular cancer first thing.
Now why did you go from hcg in urine to hcg in blood??? Why would they have a blood sample if they are testing your urine?


i don't know about quick fix's "sterility" after 8 hours. in human urine, the excereted sugars are fermented by bacteria. not a lot unless you're diabetic. not sure what bacteria do with the other products, but if you say so.
You shouldn't have sugar in your urine, if you do then that can be a sign of diabetes. Hundreds of years ago this was how they diagnosed diabetes, if the urine tasted sweet. They test the pH of the urine and if it is high then that may suggest old urine and substitution as well as using additives added directly to the urine such as nitrites. You pretty much have this backwards.


FakeBoobs hasn't been on in about a month. I know this part of the board relies on his expertise a lot, and I personally miss him a lot, not only because he's smart but also because he's funny and nice.

Until he returns to us, which I hope will be soon, if you're a new member or have new questions about drug testing, it'd be worth your while to spend some time searching through previous questions and the answers FakeBoobsRule has provided in this sub-forum. He's answered nearly every drug-testing-related question there is several times over, and the answers you're looking for are probably here someplace. You'll just have to work for them.

The poor guy may be taking a much-needed vacation from having to repeat himself so often!

[chantoke]

Chantoke you really should stop posting incorrect information in the drug testing section. Giving people incorrect info on drug testing could have serious consequences because people's jobs, freedom, or children may be at stake.




They cannot test for hcg during drug testing period. This would never happen under current laws. Besides, most drug tests that use lab equipment and not instant testing are not performed in the same location where the urine is collected. If you are still in the waiting area 2-5 days later, something is wrong.


Now why did you go from hcg in urine to hcg in blood??? Why would they have a blood sample if they are testing your urine?


You shouldn't have sugar in your urine, if you do then that can be a sign of diabetes. Hundreds of years ago this was how they diagnosed diabetes, if the urine tasted sweet. They test the pH of the urine and if it is high then that may suggest old urine and substitution as well as using additives added directly to the urine such as nitrites. You pretty much have this backwards.


fructose is in urine as well. i won't bother responding to the rest because it's not really very relevant--no one cares.

with all due respect, you're not the only expert here.

[chantoke]

fructose is in urine as well. i won't bother responding to the rest because it's not really very relevant

i was just thinking about it, that was a pretty lame post to make for me overall. thanks for your expertise man.

i guess i lost site of the practical point there--what i should have said is i don't think if you had those cancers the HCG would show up in your urine. so a doctor wouldn't think cancer regardless. i wasn't thinking straight when i wrote it.

with regards to urine and glucose, i think you might have misread what i wrote. i was just trying to say urine is not sterile after it's been sitting for awhile. just like leaving something sugary out for awhile. if someone is diabetic or just had a sugar rich meal, it can spill into their urine. those samples will not stay sterile.

i'll be careful in the future too in how i phrase what i write. just here to share in the knowledge.

[geekedupgirl]

i was just thinking about it, that was a pretty lame post to make for me overall. thanks for your expertise man.

i guess i lost site of the practical point there--what i should have said is i don't think if you had those cancers the HCG would show up in your urine. so a doctor wouldn't think cancer regardless. i wasn't thinking straight when i wrote it.

with regards to urine and glucose, i think you might have misread what i wrote. i was just trying to say urine is not sterile after it's been sitting for awhile. just like leaving something sugary out for awhile. if someone is diabetic or just had a sugar rich meal, it can spill into their urine. those samples will not stay sterile.

i'll be careful in the future too in how i phrase what i write. just here to share in the knowledge.

I'm not exactly sure where you got your information but you've referenced fructose and glucose which are both different types of sugars. Fructose are the sugars present in fruits NOT urine. FakeBoobsRule is correct a classic symptom of diabetes is the presence of glucose in the urine.

I'd just like to clarify that when drug testing facilities test urine samples they are checking for nothing but DRUGS. That's it, period. Not DNA, not diabetes, not pregnancy, not hereditary mental illnessess (but reading some of these posts, maybe they should start). Your urine is not special. No lab tech is going to risk their time and the companies money/resources to perform tests that are not only unneccessary but illegal.

[chantoke]

I'm not exactly sure where you got your information but you've referenced fructose and glucose which are both different types of sugars. Fructose are the sugars present in fruits NOT urine. FakeBoobsRule is correct a classic symptom of diabetes is the presence of glucose in the urine.

I'd just like to clarify that when drug testing facilities test urine samples they are checking for nothing but DRUGS. That's it, period. Not DNA, not diabetes, not pregnancy, not hereditary mental illnessess (but reading some of these posts, maybe they should start). Your urine is not special. No lab tech is going to risk their time and the companies money/resources to perform tests that are not only unneccessary but illegal.

you can definitely have fructose in your urine. it's called fructosuria. both are in your urine in diabetes and with heavy sugar loads. it's a slower digesting sugar than glucose.

here's the article to support that since it seems every starts from a priori of zero here:

[Fructose in the blood and urine in diabetes melli...[Z Gesamte Inn Med. 1973] - PubMed Result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4779145&dopt=Abstract)

you're right about the second part. i never contested that--if you read my posts, i agreed fully with whoever first made that point. its a violation of HIPAA which is the current legal standard of medical confidentiality in the united states. i made this point a long while ago. actually i think you made it first if my memory's right. but i agreed with you.

[chantoke]

also, both glucose and fructose can end up in the urine in ANYONE whose kidneys can't reabsorb sugars. it's not just diabetes, despite what you might be initially taught in school. the proximal tubules of your kidneys reabsorb sugar. if they are overloaded (ie from a sugar rich meal), you will have sugar in your urine. although it can be a sign of diabetes, that's because the diabetes disease process damages your kidneys reabsorptive capabilties.

anything that slows your kidneys down, or someone with genetically slower kidneys, can have sugar in their urine.

here is a link that explains it with more formal language:

Renal Glucosuria: Tubular and Cystic Kidney Disorders: Merck Manual Home Edition (http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec11/ch146/ch146c.html)

i'm not sure if anyone cares--i'm just saying don't leave urine on the shelf too long. if you're someone dropping sugar in your urine after having a lot of junk food, the urine will not remain sterile for long.

[FakeBoobsRule]

My head is hurting from the poor information on metabolic disorders, diet, decomp/decay of urine, and substitution. It is one thing to find info on the internet but it takes a little more to understand it properly. I don't know where to start the presence of glucose in the urine or the presence of fructose in the urine.


you can definitely have fructose in your urine. it's called fructosuria. both are in your urine in diabetes and with heavy sugar loads. it's a slower digesting sugar than glucose.
I will start with fructose and fructosuria. Fructosuria is the presence of fructose in the urine and it is NOT normal. It is NOT caused by eating a meal heavy in sugar or fructose. It is caused by a metabolic disorder where the body lacks the enzyme fructokinase. You shouldn't have fructose pumping through the proximal renal tubules of the kidneys. The kidneys are not supposed to reabsorb fructose because the kidneys should never see fructose and the problem is the lack of enzyme and not in the kidneys. Let's review this again. You eat something containing fructose. Fructose has to be converted to glucose or glycogen before your body can use it. The kidneys should never be exposed to fructose because it is broken down first by fructokinase. Your kidneys do not "know" how to reabsorb fructose because that is not a normal job of the kidneys because fructose should be converted to glucose or glycogen. So if your body lacks fructokinase, this is the only way fructose can end up in the urine, not from eating a bunch of fructose.


here's the article to support that since it seems every starts from a priori of zero here:
Like I said earlier, this article is useless.



you're right about the second part. i never contested that--if you read my posts, i agreed fully with whoever first made that point. its a violation of HIPAA which is the current legal standard of medical confidentiality in the united states. i made this point a long while ago. actually i think you made it first if my memory's right. but i agreed with you.

Again I have repeated this before, HIPAA deals with confidentiality and I am almost positive it is the Drug Free Work Place Act of 1988 that prevents gender testing. Really this is becoming a mute point because it is a fact that by law they cannot test fluid/tissue samples for things other than drugs. Does it really matter which act or law covers it.



also, both glucose and fructose can end up in the urine in ANYONE whose kidneys can't reabsorb sugars.

Wrong. I tackled the fructose in the urine, soon I will discuss glucose in urine and meals.

it's not just diabetes, despite what you might be initially taught in school.
I never said diabetes is the only cause of glucose in the urine. I said that was the classic sign of diabetes and there is a difference. It is like saying all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Diabetics often times have glucose in the urine if it is uncontrolled but glucose in the urine doesn't always mean diabetes. I am fully aware the differential diagnosis includes every thing from Cushing's to acute renal failure.


the proximal tubules of your kidneys reabsorb sugar. if they are overloaded (ie from a sugar rich meal), you will have sugar in your urine. although it can be a sign of diabetes, that's because the diabetes disease process damages your kidneys reabsorptive capabilties.

Now we are at the heart of the problem. You have incorrectely identified cause and effect in several ways. Normal blood sugar should be between 80-110 mg/dl, some say 120. I go with current guidelines and use 80-110mg/dl. After a meal the blood sugar may spike up closer to 200 mg/dl in normal people. This peak may last around 2 hours or less and your body deals with this by producing more insulin from the pancrease. If you are normal your kidneys should easliy handle this 99% of the time. Your kidneys will reabsorb glucose and no glucose will be deposited in the urine. Even during this 2 hour time period your kidneys should be able to handle this. This is the normal process. The abnormal process in a diabetic (other disease processes withstanding) is that the blood sugar level rises long enough or high enough that it overwhelmes the kidneys and some glucose may end up in urine. This can be complicated by poor patient compliance as far as diet and insulin regimen. It doesn't start off with damaged kidneys leading to decreased efficiency. However, if this happens enough times there is kidney damage and it becomes easier to overwhelm them, a vicious cycle. So let's review:

Glucose in the urine in a diabetic is caused by blood sugar levels high enoug/long enough that the kidneys can't reabsorb all the glucose.


anything that slows your kidneys down, or someone with genetically slower kidneys, can have sugar in their urine.
This is so vague and and out there I am just going to say let's imagine it was never said.


here is a link that elains it with more formal language:

Renal Glucosuria: Tubular and Cystic Kidney Disorders: Merck Manual Home Edition (http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec11/ch146/ch146c.html)
You should re read your own link please. I think you are missing some things. For instance, when it says "very high blood sugar levels" that doesn't mean 200 after a meal. They are talking about 350, 400, 500 mg/dl which doesn't just happen from eating sugar unless there is a disease state present.


i'm not sure if anyone cares--i'm just saying don't leave urine on the shelf too long. if you're someone dropping sugar in your urine after having a lot of junk food, the urine will not remain sterile for long.
Again, normally there is no glucose in urine even after a sugar filled meal unless you have a disease state and the most common disease state for this to occur is diabetes.

What causes urine to decay/decompose is the breakdown of urea yielding ammonia which raises the pH of the urine beyond the accepted range. It is not fermentation by bacteria.

I'm sure I missed something but that is because I am really tired from having to correct bad information but this is pretty damn close.

Despite what you said this isn't about playing in the same sandbox. What this is about is people come to the drug testing forum usually in a panic. They have a drug test coming up for a job, probation, maybe child custody case. Many times they are so upset and worried they don't read all the information in a post or posts. Many people give incorrect advice here and eventually someone will provide the correct info in the thread further down or in another thread but some don't read that far. I am just trying to help people and this isn't anything personal. I have only grown pot once so you wouldn't find me in the growing forums giving advice and if I did I would hope someone would correct me when I said something wrong.

:thumbsup:

[FakeBoobsRule]

Well the debate has good parts and bad parts. It is good because people can learn from it but it has gone on so long there is so much now to dig through, almost to the point it has gone off topic but not. I hope people understand now how to store urine and why and that it is ok to use the other gender. Maybe you can split it from the main sub thread or something.

Wow, I feel like I made one big circle.

[endprohibition]

Hi,
First let me say thank you so much for all the great info and research that you all share for free on here, I would be lost without it. That being said, I have been distressed to find very little on the internet about needing to pass a test in the criminal justice system.
I am a daily smoker, and the criminalization of using marijuana is a never ending source of frustration. My own situation is thus. I have been sentenced to two weeks jail time for driving under suspended license (first offence), and I am being 'allowed' to serve it with electronic home monitoring, because I have kids, (not to mention that the detention center is full and they are over budget and under staffed), and to be eligable I must submit to a drug screening. When I asked why, they said that you are not allowed to be on drugs or alcohol while on the ankle bracelet. You would think, by that logic, that they would test at the End of a sentence. Anyhow, I, with a totally clean record before this, am about to be under the hairy eyeball of big brother, and let me tell ya, it is no fun.
I have scoured the internet for advice and facts, and it has helped me to arrive at about a 75% confidence rate for substitution, seeing as how I have to test in two days ( and my body comes with a built in urine smuggling compartment). However, I have been getting paranoid about some questions that I can't seem to find any answers to, even after hours and hours of research. And they are these :

Is the technology used to conduct urinalysis for the justice system different from the kind used in employment? How so?

Are all urinalysis for the corrections system supervised and how?

Are you suddenly stripped of all your 2nd amendment rights the moment you enter into the system? Do they have the right to cavity search you, or otherwise invade your privacy, even without probable cause?

And, please, a clear statement about if age and sex have effect on your results, meaning wouldn't I be safer using my child's urine since I know he hasn't had anything that would give him a false or true positive? Does the justice system have the right and the ability to delve into this?

Pretty pretty please!
It would be such a weight off my mind to get some responce to this. Im just an ordinary person who likes to live off the grid as much as possible. But I am a woman and a mother, and single at that, and for something harmless my whole life is suddenly at the whims and mercy of our awful drug policy and the morality that drives it. Our only defense is to keep doing our best to outwit them, and VOTE :hippy: Thanks

[FakeBoobsRule]

I have scoured the internet for advice and facts, and it has helped me to arrive at about a 75% confidence rate for substitution, seeing as how I have to test in two days ( and my body comes with a built in urine smuggling compartment). However, I have been getting paranoid about some questions that I can't seem to find any answers to, even after hours and hours of research. And they are these :

You really need to do better research if this is the solution you have come to. Substitution is best served for employment drug screens because by law unless you give them cause, they can't observe you. However, drug testing for court is much different. It will be different from each court system from county to county etc. but most will watch the urine flow from the body to the cup. It can be done and women probably have a better chance of passing an observed test but to try to substitute for a court ordered screen is madness. I don't know how your research led to this is a good idea. In emplotyment screening way more than 75% of people pull it off successfully but for court that number drops significantly. Oh, by the way if you are caught this is against the law and will only make things worse. There is a chance they might not observe but you won't know before hand and the chances are almost certain the will observe.


Is the technology used to conduct urinalysis for the justice system different from the kind used in employment? How so?
Yes and no. They may use instant test strips and if you fail the instant test, a full lab test will be ordered. If you have been researching you will see these instant strips are very accurate and use the same technology. I must have answered that like 3 times yesterday alone.


Are all urinalysis for the corrections system supervised and how?
They watch the urine flow from the body to the cup in most cases sometimes in the same room. See above.

Are you suddenly stripped of all your 2nd amendment rights the moment you enter into the system? Do they have the right to cavity search you, or otherwise invade your privacy, even without probable cause?
2nd amendment is the right to bear arms. You are thinking more of the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments but you are stripped of those too because you are pleading guilty to a crime!


And, please, a clear statement about if age and sex have effect on your results, meaning wouldn't I be safer using my child's urine since I know he hasn't had anything that would give him a false or true positive? Does the justice system have the right and the ability to delve into this?
Chantoke was probably banned for trying to confuse people with their misinformation. Age and sex of the donor do not matter as long as the sample is drug free. Don't forget to think about prescription drugs. Make sure your donor is 100% clean so that when you get caught for subbing on a court ordered test at least it is clean. It won't matter but at least you can have that satisfied feeling you did have a clean urine.

Sorry but to do the sentence at home is a Godsend and the smart thing would have been to quit and get through the 2 weeks. Subbing for court is a horrible idea and you need to quit if you haven't, get some home tests, and possibly do some aerobics. If you have any more questions, do me a favor and start your own thread please.

[endprohibition]

Listen, you may have got me on the amendment bit, I was implying my right to privacy. However, on the rest, you demonstrated, quite snidely, my point, which was that very little information that is available on the internet pertains to the court system. You act as though there arn't innocent people every day snapped up into the system just because they smoke pot. You also assume I've known about this along time and just didn't want to quit. I learned Friday that I'm taking this test on tuesday, and while I plan to dilute, I am quite doubtful that it will work. I have practiced subbing every night, and will continue until the test, and hope that the fact that I have no prior or current alcohol or drug related charges ever will get me an unsupervised, or even minimally supervised test, and let us keep in mind here that we are dealing with a traffic offence.

I don't know, maybe I just smoke too much weed, but I thought we are all on the same team here? Or maybe it's just some more of the same good ol american spirit that likes to shove others down to make it's own feel better. Isn't it bad enough that I'm scared to death that the corrections system is going to snap me up just because I smoke pot? Isn't it good enough that I'm on here, attempting to educate myself, asking questions? Well I've still got more questions, but I will not bring them here. Thanks alot for the information you gave, and theres just nothing like being treated like an idiot to improve any situation you happen to find yourself in. Peace.

[ZAD515]

endprohibiton, I say the same thing to you that I would say to myself: It may be observed, but if you can hide the fake pee, why not bring it? If you know where you're being tested, ask around to see how vigilant they are. Nearby headshops work well if you're having trouble finding information. I hope your situation turns out well. :)