so whats wrong with being a liberal?

[BlueCat]

Is it not oxymoronic to smoke dope AND be a republican?! :confused:
lets look at the meanings...look it up yourself if you don't trust me...after all I am a bleeding heart liberal. :rolleyes:

"Lib · er · al - adj. 1. Giving freely 2. Not restricted to literal meaning (a liberal interpretation) 3. Tolerant of different views, not orthodox 4. Favoring reform -n. 1. A liberal person....thats me... :D

Con · ser · va · tive - adj. 1. Conserving or tending to conserve 2. tending to preserve established traditions or institutions or to oppose any changes in these (conservative politics) 3. of or characteristic of a conservative


It is not wrong to be a liberal, a liberal is somebody who sets the rules of the game to improve society, rather than trying to impose control on a personal level. It is not wrong to believe that people's private lives should be preserved against unwarranted intrusions. ( like the patriot act) It is not wrong to believe that when the government sides with somebody, they should side fairly, not add their power to that of the powerful each and every time. Were the british right to attack the USA during the revolutionary war and tell us we could not bare arms? So Why should we set the rules? Why is it our rules are the only right ones as far as neocons go?

It is not wrong to believe that it should be the market economy serving our interests, not us serving what some elite deems to be the market's interests. (like halliburton and chemiclas, oil, weapons) We should not have to forgo transparency in corporate finance, truth in corporate accounting, and the ability to lead long, happy, and healthy lives, just so some executive who's going to pay himself more money anyways ( can you say ENRON) doesn't see a bite out of his bottom line. Even in purely economic terms, these practices are not without cost to the public.

In the United States, liberals like Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglass focused also on universal suffrage, but liberalism in the United States really began with the goals of abolishing slavery and expanding women's rights to create an atmosphere in which universal suffrage was possible. American conservatives were the liberals' adversaries in that they were very class based and generally pro-slavery. The ideas and beliefs of early conservatives and liberals are important because they have helped to shape the modern world in which we live.
SO what are you conservatives trying to conserve.....slavery, prohibition, maybe women should not vote? Maybe we should bring back the witch hunts
and the puritain days...

And, Democrats need to stop cooperating in the destruction of liberalism. We should be proud of it. The excesses of Conservatism are plain to see, people in America are getting sick of it, and yet, we're still willing to play like we're GOP-lite.


So what is it about consevativism i.e. the republicans you want to be a part of? Really I want to know...


THE SHORT FAQ ON LIBERALISM
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/ShortFAQ.htm#conservatism

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/zarticle.cfm?Url=articles/june97herman.htm

confused Cat

[mellow mood]

im not part of any of them. yes i dont see how you can be a hippie pot smoker and be conservative republican, but really from my opinion both are so bad. and theres a politic forum eh :)

[BlueCat]

so the answers should be interesting if I get any....debate keeps me from thinking of other shit...what can I say I ask for it...
hey theres a good thread... A VENT thread like for smokr2 you know the seizure lady..venting is important. What do you think?

PEACE cat

[Kombucha]

I don't see anyone can be anything but stupid if they are a conservative. Being automatically opposed to change is stupid. Sure if the world were perfect, but it clearly isn't.

[Jake0steve]

Ya, being opposed to change is stupid. I don't like changes in my life really, but the world definately needs them man.

[mellow mood]

what? are ya all sayin stickin to the ol american chart, sayin u need a gun to protect yourself, isnt good 200 years later? or death punishment?

lol well yea seriously i think conservative is stupid. but thats my opinion. and i think liberals are stupid too, but not as the conservatives

u have 2 choices when your an american: u vote for the dumb or the dumbest

[GHoSToKeR]

right on, BlueCat

[del...]

most conservatives are for state rights and small federal govt. conservatives, in general, are for less govt period...not just big biz. libertarians have a better handle on what should be done and how and they're not all that far from the conservatives...there are more than 2 choices.

and no, we don't own guns for protection nearly as much as we own guns because we can...

[BlueCat]

im not part of any of them. yes i dont see how you can be a hippie pot smoker and be conservative republican, but really from my opinion both are so bad. and theres a politic forum eh :)

ever read Dantes Inferno...? there are these different levels to hell in one level people have to carry a white flag that represents nothing....if they stopped running they took root in the ground, fire rained down on them until they burned to death and it all started over for them again :eek:
It was punishment for never taking a stand...its fantasy but has a point.
hope your are good and stoned to get the full effect of that image LOL


pretty freaky but I think a voice is better than no voice at all otherwise we would still be in the darkages....although if we stay on the present path we
will go full circle and end up back there anyway, maybe your are right who gives a shit,eh? :confused:

[BlueCat]

most conservatives are for state rights and small federal govt. conservatives, in general, are for less govt period...not just big biz. libertarians have a better handle on what should be done and how and they're not all that far from the conservatives...there are more than 2 choices.

and no, we don't own guns for protection nearly as much as we own guns because we can...

that use to be the case...but now with the Neoconservatives they want more governmental control....and use fear as an excuse for it. They change the rules for more control like that patriot act or the fillibuster BS.
The Neocons are a whole new breed of conservative...

[ezjim]

i can go with left or right the 2cnd amendment is vital to protection from the govt declaring martial law the left wont admit this i could change my mind if the police and milatary disarmed first the right wont give up that abortion thing they could also win me over on that by doing 1 thing ....feeding /clothing /sheltering and educating every child on the planet until they do both these things i dont want to here a word from either we have wasted enough time fighting over dumb shit on this planet its way past time petty differances were put aside so some real change can take place that will benifit every one instead of a small group of power hungry assholes who unfortunatley have conned us into fighting each other instead of them

[ShamanicHippy]

I beleive in both conservative and Liberal principals. I am definitly anti-war (liberal) but I am also anti-abortion and anti-taxes (conservative) on the abortion thing. how can liberals beleive that it is wrong to put rape-murderers to death and beleive that it is acceptable to murder a fetus. come on, which one, if either, deserves to die (i will give you a hint, it isnt the unborn child) how can you beleive that it is ok to kill unborn babies. In california it is legal to have an abortion even as the baby is emerging from the womb. that is wrong. i guess I would have to say I am a libertarian.... mostly

[mrdevious]

Has anybody on the planet considered being a critical thinker?

...........

... didn't think so

[Mojavpa]

Has anybody on the planet considered being a critical thinker?

...........

... didn't think so

Most critical thinkers I know are liberals :)

[JSTA]

"u have 2 choices when your an american: u vote for the dumb or the dumbest"
lol, so true

[llamaman666]

I think it's a problem because then Torog doesn't like you and you are unpatriotic

[Hydrizzle]

Fist off, there are, like, 3 real conservative republicans on this site, Torog, Amsterdam, and some other guy who doesnt post alot. I know it seems like anyone who disagrees is a conservative, but that's not the case. I have met many people who think I am some neo-con, because I say that abortion is murder, and that not only do i support action in Iraq, I support further action in more corrupt/brutal reigims. Also, I don't automatically bash Bush on all avaliable aspects of his presidency. I am more likely do defend him for the reasons that most attack him.... I don't like him because he places more importance on crap like space exploration and medical benifits, instead of confronting ongoing genocide on the 3rd world.

To be extreme is to be unreasonable, whether you are on the liberal or conservative side... you have to see both sides of the issue and go on principal, not what the media tells you. So many people on this board are so extremely obsessed/brainwashed by things like Michael Moore and other liberal blogs and conspiracy-therory websites, they are completety sure that Bush caused 911 intentionally, he is in league with Saudis to weaken America for his own benifit, the conservatives are going to move the poor into camps, etc, etc... Meanwhile Torog posts about how you should pray and other brainless crap copied from Hannity and Rush. My point is, it's all garbage, on both sides, pumped into people's brains by the media. Form your own opinions and be independent, rather than copying other's views and labeling yourself a "liberal" or "conservative"

[likemclever]

Iâ??m sorry but Conservative and liberal values donâ??t necessarily fit into nice little dictionary definitions.

Iâ??m glad you left the pronunciations of the words intact or we might not know how to say the words correctlyâ?¦nice touch.

Any group that allows the likes of Michael where are the Twinkies Moore and donâ??t even get me started on â??Hanoiâ?� Jane to hijack their party is not a group I care to affiliate with.

Iâ??m a registered Independent by the wayâ?¦

And Torog has the right to say whatever the fuck he likes if you push his buttons (just like anybody else.)

Iâ??m so sick of all the politically correct bull shit were we have to make nice with everyone. And if you donâ??t make nice than youâ??re somehow a hateâ?¢monâ?¢ger.

This is Americaâ?¦we have always been a group of feisty pricks and I plan on continuing that legacy.

[mrdevious]

Most critical thinkers I know are liberals :)


:D damn right

[Kombucha]

I don't think believing that abortinon is murder is particularly conservative... I'm no too sure what to believe - I think that in the first few days it is no problem to abort otherwise you may as well say that everyone must use every single sperm and egg they have to create a new person. However, once it gets to a certain stage I really don't like the idea, especially if it's for some stupid girl who couldn't be arsed to use contraceptives.

As for believing that you should execute rape muderers... if you are a Christian, you should not believe in that. "Thou shalt not kill..." and all the stuff about not judging people. I believe that no human has the right to decide whether another dies or not, except if it is immediately necessary for the defence of others or youself. Isn't that why murderers are wrong? Because they kill people? What right do governors and judges have to say whether someone should die or not?
People should be put in prison if they break the law, to remove them from society, to make them suitable for society (in some cases) and as a deterrent. It should not be a punishment. Americans are so full of hate for others, and I can't believe how bent on revenge some people are if they think someone murdered someone in their family. It amazes me to hear of people who go to see people's executions so they can gloat. Someone who is bad enough to do that is just as bad as the murdered, and I have no sympathy for them.

One of the other reasons I am opposed to the death penalty is the time it takes to die, and the pain the victim suffers. If someone is condemned to death, that is it. They are sentenced to lose their life, not lose their life painfully. Gas chambers, electric chairs and lethal injections could all easily be painless, but the sadistic bastards make sure it really hurts. It makes you wonder who really deserves to die - the murderer, or the person that constantly executes people in a horrible way, and probably enjoys it.

If you are really a Christian (as a lot of die-hard conservatives are) you would believe that you should not punish them, just remove them from society so people are safe, and let God judge them when they are dead.

[Torog]

Howdy Blue Cat,

You state:" It is not wrong to be a liberal, a liberal is somebody who sets the rules of the game to improve society, rather than trying to impose control on a personal level. It is not wrong to believe that people's private lives should be preserved against unwarranted intrusions. ( like the patriot act) "

You say that ' a liberal is somebody who sets the rules.'...I take that to mean, that liberals believe that they can make uni-lateral,arbritary decisions..justified by the percieved need to engage in social engineering,for the sake of 'progress',and often accomplished by liberal,activist, judges. The result is that you do impose control on a personal level. I agree with you on the privacy issue..but we did need some of the tools in the Patriot Act,because of liberal judges,who are more worried about the rights of muslim jihadists,than American citizens. I don't want any part of a national id card,it could very well be the mark of the beast,and if I can..I'll use religious conviction to opt out.

You ask: " SO what are you conservatives trying to conserve.....slavery, prohibition, maybe women should not vote? Maybe we should bring back the witch hunts
and the puritain days... "

Actually,it was the Republican Party,that passed the abolution of slavery act..not the Democrats.

Prohibition has never worked.

America and the Coalition,have expanded the right of women to vote,in a part of the world,that still treats women as second-class citizens and worse,good men and women,have given their all,to promote Freedom..where there was none.

I wish to conserve and preserve,traditional families and values,because they have served us well,as the solid building blocks of the world's greatest country. I took an oath ,made before God,to defend,preserve and protect,the United States of America and the Constitution,I take that oath,very seriously..and to that end,I will remain steadfast.

Have a good one ...

[2600]

If youâ??re not a liberal when youâ??re in your 20's you havenâ??t got a heart; if youâ??re not a conservative by the time youâ??re 40 you havenâ??t got a brain.

[makor01]

wrong forum maybe?

[likemclever]

wrong forum maybe?

Agreed...

[smokey]

yea cant u lot use the politics forum for this shit keep it where it belongs

[amsterdam]

most conservatives are for state rights and small federal govt. conservatives, in general, are for less govt period...not just big biz. libertarians have a better handle on what should be done and how and they're not all that far from the conservatives...there are more than 2 choices.

and no, we don't own guns for protection nearly as much as we own guns because we can...


right on.

[amsterdam]

liberal="the absolute conviction that there is one set of rules for you,and another,completely different set of rules for everyone else." :)

[likemclever]

liberal="the absolute conviction that there is one set of rules for you,and another,completely different set of rules for everyone else." :)

I love your avatar....I take it you listen to Glenn Beck or am I wrong...

[amsterdam]

i do sometimes,i just thought my avatar was funny.it also gets under peoples skin.

[Button Basher]

it also gets under peoples skin.

Perfect... for Amsterdam.

All I know is Republicans let the side down. Everyone I know that hates American hates America because of the Republican government. There's no other fantasy reason like they hate freedom or they love terrorists or bullshit like that, it's the Republicans all the way (who usually turn out to be the most annoying of Americans).

I have more patience for the US then most people I know. I think Torog and Am are pretty cool (sometimes) but they're still Republican. Shame :cool: !

[amsterdam]

republicans are gonna be the power party for awhile.

[Button Basher]

Shame!

[amsterdam]

relief.

[Button Basher]

If your on the inside, sure.

[amsterdam]

what do you mean if your on the inside?

[Button Basher]

Your glad Bush is president again because your another flag waving Republican. Every other country on Earth understands the bad decision you guys made. Obviously, you wouldn't understand.

I just had a quick rundown of the political forum and you were the last poster on 90% of the threads. Do you do anything else?

[amsterdam]

makes work go by fast.good entertainment!!

wierd,i doubt the people in the ukraine or the women in afghanistan or kuwait,poland,iraq would agree with you but thats your opinion.its a tough job,someones gotta do it.

[Fengzi]

Blue Cat-You ask "What's wrong with being a liberal?" Given the definition you present, there is nothing wrong with being a liberal. The problem is that that many so called "liberals" get so caught up in being "liberal" that they stop using common sense and stop thinking for themselves. They also tend to be the most vocal of "liberals" and are what gives liberals a bad name.

I live quite close to Berkely, the capitol of liberalism in America. Or at least most Berkely-ites like to think so. I have seen so many of them get way too caught up in trying to portray the image of the Berkely liberal. They all get together like good little liberals to go and protest their cause of the week. Many know very little about what they are protesting. It just becomes the hip thing to do and rather than think for themselves they just jump on the bandwagon with everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with someone believing in a cause and standing up for what tyou believe in. But know about what you are supporting/protesting, and really believe in that casue before you start ranting about something being right or wrong.

The other problem is that that many liberals take things too far. They react to issues based on how they feel they should react as a liberal rather without really looking at the facts and considering the issue first. For example, there has been a lot in the press around here lately about police using taser guns excessively. Obviously liberals and groups like the ACLU are all over it .When I actually sit down and look at the facts, however, most of the cases don't seem to be all that excessive to me.

Now I've had my share of run ins with the police and I know that they don't always treat people equally. I used to have hair down to my waist (I'm a guy) and drive around in a car covered in Dead stickers so trust me , I do know. There are a lot of bad people out there, however, and the police have to do something. If a cop zaps a guy whose freaking out and trying to attack the cop it is not excessive force. If they are chasing a guy who is known to be a violent criminal and he acts in an aggressive manner it is not excessive force. If that guy just happens to be black it is not racial stereotyping. Yes, sadly, there will be cases where it is but from what I've seen most of the time it's probably just a cop whose scared shitless and trying to protect him/herself. Many liberals, often the most vocal ones, would just start yelling police brutality without sitting down to look at the facts and think reasonably.

Now, please don't think I'm a conservative. Conservatives are just as bad. They're just far to the right. Actually, when it comes down to it they scare me a lot more than the liberals because the conservatives have god on their side. I'm an athiest so, no, I'm not worried about god per se. But when you look back at history and see what's been done in the name of god, the religious right becomes scarier than a child produced from the genetic milkshake of Freddy Kruger, Jason Vorhees, and George W.

The bottom line is that so many people have gone so far to the right or left that there is now a gaping hole in the middle and that hole is where common sense used to be.

[Button Basher]

makes work go by fast.good entertainment!!

wierd,i doubt the people in the ukraine or the women in afghanistan or kuwait,poland,iraq would agree with you but thats your opinion.its a tough job,someones gotta do it.

It's very much a shared opinion in Europe. The next time you chat to one of your friends in those countries, tell them to humour us.

[amsterdam]

like i said wierd,i lived in holland for two years and traveled all over including beirut,saudi arabia and morocco and never saw much drama.im sure you would find it hard to believe but most of the young people in the middle east support bush secretly.they hate the mullahs?as for europe,dont overexagerate,it aint as bad as you say it is.i am no untraveled american and have seen what it is like.it is nothing.

[Fengzi]

makes work go by fast.good entertainment!!

wierd,i doubt the people in the ukraine or the women in afghanistan or kuwait,poland,iraq would agree with you but thats your opinion.its a tough job,someones gotta do it.

I understand Afghanistan and Kuwait. Agree that untilmately the world is a better place without Saddam but don't really think many of the people there really dig Bush given the current state of things. Time will tell...

But why would the people of the Ukraine or Poland support the republicans? Did I miss something while I was blazing one day?

[amsterdam]

not republicans,bush.because he is spreading democracy and people who have actually lived under communism can appreciate that.

i believe the 8 and a half million iraqis who voted pledged their support for democracy.how do people forget that fast.jan 2 was a day i will never forget.after listening for months how it wasnt possible to hold elections,or it was too dangerous.watching those people vote was one of the most incredible things i have ever seen.

[Button Basher]

like i said wierd,i lived in holland for two years and traveled all over including beirut,saudi arabia and morocco and never saw much drama.im sure you would find it hard to believe but most of the young people in the middle east support bush secretly.they hate the mullahs?as for europe,dont overexagerate,it aint as bad as you say it is.i am no untraveled american and have seen what it is like.it is nothing.

What the fuck? You made absolutely no sense just then. I'm baffled!

I'm not trying to put you down, I literally didn't get a fucking word of that. :p

[pisshead]

most conservatives are for state rights and small federal govt. conservatives, in general, are for less govt period...not just big biz. libertarians have a better handle on what should be done and how and they're not all that far from the conservatives...there are more than 2 choices.

and no, we don't own guns for protection nearly as much as we own guns because we can...there are millions of gun owners in this country and guns are used for protection far more than they are used to harm someone intentionally or accidentally.




* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every yearâ??or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2
* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"â??a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.3
* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.4
* Anti-gun journal pronounces the failure of the Brady law. One of the nationâ??s leading anti-gun medical publications, the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that the Brady registration law has failed to reduce murder rates. In August 2000, JAMA reported that states implementing waiting periods and background checks did "not [experience] reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."5
* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. Thatâ??s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.6
* More guns, less crime. In the decade of the 1990s, the number of guns in this country increased by roughly 40 millionâ??even while the murder rate decreased by almost 40% percent.7 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by almost 40 percent as well.8
* CDC admits there is no evidence that gun control reduces crime. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has long been criticized for propagating questionable studies which gun control organizations have used in defense of their cause. But after analyzing 51 studies in 2003, the CDC concluded that the "evidence was insufficient to determine the effectiveness of any of these [firearms] laws."9
* Gun shows are NOT a primary source of illegal guns for criminals. According to two government studies, the National Institute of Justice reported in 1997 that "less than two percent [of criminals] reported obtaining [firearms] from a gun show."10 And the Bureau of Justice Statistics revealed in 2001 that less than one percent of firearm offenders acquired their weapons at gun shows.11




that page goes on forever...

[pisshead]

right on.then why do you cheer on the neoconservatives and their record budgets and their gigantic growth in government, and the addition of unconstitutional legislation? they make clinton look conservative.

you call yourself a conservative?

[amsterdam]

no i dont call myself a conservative at all?

[Button Basher]

What do you need a gun to protect yourself from?

Oh yeah, another person with a gun.

[pisshead]

oh i'm sorry...it was hydrizzle that called you and torog the only true conservatives on this site. i found that weird considering bush is incredibly liberal in a lot of areas.

[Fengzi]

[QUOTE=amsterdam]not republicans,bush.because he is spreading democracy and people who have actually lived under communism can appreciate that.
QUOTE]

Mmmnnn....have to disagree with you here. My wife lived under communism, most of my in laws still do, and I've had my own issues living in a communist country, but we all still think Bush is an idiot.

I find it interesting that you have the opinions that you do having lived overseas. When I lived overseas it was a complete eye opener. What I found is that most people were not ready to jump on the next boat to the U.S. and were strongly against U.S. foriegn policy. Granted, I did live in Asia, not Europe so I'm sure opinions are different there. I did live for a while, however, in an international dorm which had many European, African, and Asian students all living together and most shared the same opinion.

One thing that I did find is that most people could seperate average Americans from the U.S. Government. Almost everyone I met liked Americans, at least the younger layed back ones not the older, rich "ugly Americans", even if they did not support the government. I am wondering if you did not mistake friendliness for the average American for a general support of the U.S. and its policies?

[Funken Monken]

Can someone please (likey a US Republican voter) post a 'Are you a Liberal' questionnaire on here please ? I just wanna be sure.....

[pisshead]

it's funny...but when it comes to gun control, it should make people realize that the smaller government you have, the less unconstitutional laws you have, the better things get! go figure.

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission . . . without paying a fee . . . or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the unionâ??having three times received the "Safest State Award."31
* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.32 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year periodâ??thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.33
* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.


i bet if you didn't even need permits for conceal carry, it would result in even less crime, or at least be the same.

compare that cities that have the strictest gun control laws...at least in the US, the result is obvious.

it's the same with all prohibition. it's not done because the government loves you, it creates a new, profitable market if you control the system.

the drug war is a good example. the feds create the drug war, then get into the drug business and protect their industry. we have only more drugs after the drug war, just like every other war...war on terror, war on illiteracy...they're designed to fail and create the need for a federal takeover.

the same families that own and control the banks and the prisons and the shipping companies and other giant industries profit from every plank of their corrupt system. we lose jobs to prisoners making .20 cents an hour, in jail because of the drug war and three strikes bullshit.

india and mexico and china lose jobs to people in prison.

things need to stop now before this country is broken up completely and we have UN and foreign troops running around 'peacekeeping'...

[robert42]

ppl need to stop asking whats wrong and ask WHATS RIGHT

[Kombucha]

You don't have to read it

[Hydrizzle]

I agree with smokey, take this to the politic forum... this never get anywhere, always degenrates to name-calling. Thanks for attracting all the crazies to the general forum Blue Cat *rolls eyes*

[pisshead]

attracting all the crazies? you were here before i was and started this apparent name calling. i didn't even call anyone a name.

[amsterdam]

you might be a democrat if:

-you cant talk about foreign policy without using the word conspiracy.

-you think solar energy is being held back by those greedy oil companies.

-your high school year book goals included the words "help people"

-you actually expect to collect social security.

-you would rather own birkenstock rather than Merck stock

-you think the flat tax should be at 95%

-you admire the swedish welfare system

-you trust ted kennedy when he says she was driving

-you have ever said "we should really call the aclu about this."

-you keep count of how many people you know in each racial or ethnic category

-you believe that a few hundred loggers can find another career,but the defenseless spotted owl must live in its preferred tree.

-you think the free market is where they hand out govt. cheese.

[Hydrizzle]

you might be a democrat if:

-you cant talk about foreign policy without using the word conspiracy.

-you think solar energy is being held back by those greedy oil companies.

-your high school year book goals included the words "help people"

-you actually expect to collect social security.

-you would rather own birkenstock rather than Merck stock

-you think the flat tax should be at 95%

-you admire the swedish welfare system

-you trust ted kennedy when he says she was driving

-you have ever said "we should really call the aclu about this."

-you keep count of how many people you know in each racial or ethnic category

-you believe that a few hundred loggers can find another career,but the defenseless spotted owl must live in its preferred tree.

-you think the free market is where they hand out govt. cheese.


Ain't that the truth.... you forgot "jumps with glee every time a terrorist bombs Israel", can't forget that one. Also, "incredibly naive about the possibility of a WMD attack".

[Kombucha]

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every yearâ??or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2


Why do you not understand? If a criminal attacks you with a gun, they clearly have the upped hand. You don't expect to be attacked right then, so you aren't ready to fight straight away are you. They are, because they know what they're doing.




* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"â??a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.3


No mention of how successful their attempts at self-defence are...




* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. Thatâ??s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.6


That's ridiculous... that means nothing. ONE child getting killed at school by a gun is too many. Just because a load more kids die from playing sport (for some reason) it doesn't mean that 22 deaths is ok.

I admit that guns aren't totally the problem. Unfortunately, it is the people. American people are, generally, far too paranoid and ignorant, and pay far too much attention to the media. Look at other countries, Britain is very similar to America is many ways, yet our murder rate is so much lower. We have almost no guns here, even the police can work safely without guns.



like i said wierd,i lived in holland for two years and traveled all over including beirut,saudi arabia and morocco and never saw much drama.im sure you would find it hard to believe but most of the young people in the middle east support bush secretly.they hate the mullahs?as for europe,dont overexagerate,it aint as bad as you say it is.i am no untraveled american and have seen what it is like.it is nothing.


Right, so you, having been to Europe once or twice, know more about the situation here than we do? I don't know a single person in this country that has anything but contempt for America.

[amsterdam]

Why do you not understand? If a criminal attacks you with a gun, they clearly have the upped hand. You don't expect to be attacked right then, so you aren't ready to fight straight away are you. They are, because they know what they're doing.



No mention of how successful their attempts at self-defence are...



That's ridiculous... that means nothing. ONE child getting killed at school by a gun is too many. Just because a load more kids die from playing sport (for some reason) it doesn't mean that 22 deaths is ok.

I admit that guns aren't totally the problem. Unfortunately, it is the people. American people are, generally, far too paranoid and ignorant, and pay far too much attention to the media. Look at other countries, Britain is very similar to America is many ways, yet our murder rate is so much lower. We have almost no guns here, even the police can work safely without guns.



Right, so you, having been to Europe once or twice, know more about the situation here than we do? I don't know a single person in this country that has anything but contempt for America.
where have you been in the states?

[Fengzi]

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission . . . without paying a fee . . . or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the unionâ??having three times received the "Safest State Award."31...

Vermont's not exactly the best example Pisshead. I've been to Vermont, it aint exactly a tough place. The last I heard there wasn't a lot of turf wars between Bed & Breakfast owners.


* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.32 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year periodâ??thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.33 ...

Your assuming a cause and effect relationship between the concealed carry law and a drop in crime. Violent crime has pretty much dropped everywhere, not just in places that have concealed carry laws. Maybe people are just starting to use common sense. Or, maybe the violent criminals have just been killing each other off with their legally obtained guns making it safer for the rest of us.



* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder. ...

Most likely the people who would care about a concealed carry law are not the ones committing crimes. I seriously doubt that someone would go out to rob a bank but leave their gun at home because it was against the law to carry a gun. Besides, ther's a lot of gators in Florida



i bet if you didn't even need permits for conceal carry, it would result in even less crime, or at least be the same.

compare that cities that have the strictest gun control laws...at least in the US, the result is obvious....

again, your assuming a cause & effect relationship that does not neccessarily exist


it's the same with all prohibition. it's not done because the government loves you, it creates a new, profitable market if you control the system.

huh?



the same families that own and control the banks and the prisons and the shipping companies and other giant industries profit from every plank of their corrupt system. we lose jobs to prisoners making .20 cents an hour, in jail because of the drug war and three strikes bullshit..

Most people who complain about losing jobs to so and so have little knowledge of economics. Many of these jobs are the shit jobs that no one would want to do. If they were not given to people willing, or forced, to work for a low wage they would have to be done by people who would demand a higher pay. This results in rise in price of the the product or service being produced. Soon, the people doing that work can no longer afford the product or service so they demand higher pay. Once again the prices then go up and so on and so on.

Regarding three strikes, how is this bullshit? Should violent criminals be given unlimited chances to go out and harm others? What about the little girl would would still be alive if the three strikes law had been in place several years earlier? I guess she is less important than the rights of a sick twisted child molester. Right?


india and mexico and china lose jobs to people in prison.

economics


things need to stop now before this country is broken up completely and we have UN and foreign troops running around 'peacekeeping'...
Dude, do you live on a farm surrounded by barb wire out in the middle of Idaho? I think you need to lay off the herb for a while. You're getting way to paranoid.

[Hydrizzle]

C'mon Amsterdam, you know he probably hasn't... even if he was, do you think he visited the parts where gun violence takes place? No way, why would he? Just let me clarify Kombucha... all the gun violence, once again, is black on black in shitty-ass ghettos... and is the fault of low law enforcement budget and a genral uncaringness op ALL politicians. Its NOT because we are a land of freedom where a citizen can bear arms. I bet the stats are equal to other countries in rural/suburban areas.... not shitty ass ghettos.

Bye the way, when you say that criminals just attack you out of nowhere, firing a shot with no warning, thats bullshit. They are doing it for a reason, most likely to rob you. Most criminals with guns are dumass crackhead who could'nt hit the broad side of a barn with an M60 machnegun. So, a citizen who knows his gun and can pull and fire quickley will almost always have the upper hand.

[pisshead]

Why do you not understand? If a criminal attacks you with a gun, they clearly have the upped hand. You don't expect to be attacked right then, so you aren't ready to fight straight away are you. They are, because they know what they're doing.



No mention of how successful their attempts at self-defence are...



That's ridiculous... that means nothing. ONE child getting killed at school by a gun is too many. Just because a load more kids die from playing sport (for some reason) it doesn't mean that 22 deaths is ok.

I admit that guns aren't totally the problem. Unfortunately, it is the people. American people are, generally, far too paranoid and ignorant, and pay far too much attention to the media. Look at other countries, Britain is very similar to America is many ways, yet our murder rate is so much lower. We have almost no guns here, even the police can work safely without guns.



Right, so you, having been to Europe once or twice, know more about the situation here than we do? I don't know a single person in this country that has anything but contempt for America.

europe is just as fucked as we are. the same people who own our shit own your shit. we're all going to be one big happy global government family one day.

[Kombucha]

Just let me clarify Kombucha... all the gun violence, once again, is black on black in shitty-ass ghettos...

So why do you all need guns then, if there's no gun crime elsewhere?

[Funken Monken]

Thanks for that...let me see........


you might be a democrat if:

-you cant talk about foreign policy without using the word conspiracy.

-you think solar energy is being held back by those greedy oil companies.

-your high school year book goals included the words "help people"

-you actually expect to collect social security.

-you would rather own birkenstock rather than Merck stock

-you think the flat tax should be at 95%

-you admire the swedish welfare system

-you trust ted kennedy when he says she was driving

-you have ever said "we should really call the aclu about this."

-you keep count of how many people you know in each racial or ethnic category

-you believe that a few hundred loggers can find another career,but the defenseless spotted owl must live in its preferred tree.

-you think the free market is where they hand out govt. cheese.


OK, I think perhaps we can assume there are 2 meanings to the term liberal here. One is the one given at the start of this thread.
The other is 'not a Republican American'

:D ;)
The reason for the second def. is that as a UK citizen, I've no idea about the intricate dealings of the Kennedy family, generally in the UK we dont have year books, whats the ACLU? (rht), loggings not a massive industry around this island :p , and finally, I dont think solar power is held back by the oil companies. the high production and installation costs on the other hand......


You got anything a bit non-US specific?

[U4EUH]

A side benefit to the legalization of drugs would be a significant decrease in crime, crime involving guns.

[pisshead]

not only that, it would take the money out of it...it would create competition which would likely bring the prices down...as long as there's a big supply.

so there's a big downfall to legalization on behalf of the government drug runners who also run the war on drugs.

[Kid Dynamite]

why dont we all just drop the guns....and take three steps back.

[GHoSToKeR]

The way I see it, and like many people have already said, is that you are stupid to wholey embrace either a conservative or liberal set of beliefs. However, if I was asked to classify myself I would undoubtedly call myself a liberal, as most of my beliefs are more liberal than anything.

I belief abortions used as contraception are wrong, but I also see that abortions are often necessary, and so I am pro-choice.

I believe gay marriage should not be a matter for the government to decide, and so I am pro-choice.

I believe that all governments are corrupt, and if not then they soon will be.

I believe that guns, if possible, should not be used, though I do not think they should be banned. However, I do believe that more gun control does equal less gun crime.

I believe that no country should launch a pre-emptive strike on any other country unless there is absolute proof that doing so will save lives.

I am against cencorship and prohibition in any form.

I am for the complete seperation of church and state.

If i'm a liberal, then I dont give a shit - i'm a liberal. However, I will not ignore or rebuke a conservative view just because it is that; a conservative view. I believe everybody should listen to every point of view with an open mind, and make the decision based on the facts, not on whether the particular opinion is too liberal or too conservative. It is because of this that people like Hydrizzle and amsterdam wreck my head, as they are too quick to dismiss something as stupid because it is different to what they think.

[bklynbluntsmoker]

Isnt time that the human race grew up and realized we have no need for this stupid system of oppression we call government. Fuck conservatives, fuck Liberals, fuck politicians. Throw down our self inflicted chains and realize that we dont need rules to do the right thing. Human beings are animals and most animals get along without the need of an institutionalized system of oppression to keep us in line. lets be better than the rest of the inhabitants of our planets and care for our entire species instead of killing eachother or letting each other suffer.Free your mind!!

[GHoSToKeR]

right on, man! thats what i want, too.. but its not gonna happen anytime soon.. people are too greedy and sefish. :(

[amsterdam]

whats wrong with greed?

[Kombucha]

The way I see it, and like many people have already said, is that you are stupid to wholey embrace either a conservative or liberal set of beliefs. However, if I was asked to classify myself I would undoubtedly call myself a liberal, as most of my beliefs are more liberal than anything.

I belief abortions used as contraception are wrong, but I also see that abortions are often necessary, and so I am pro-choice.

I believe gay marriage should not be a matter for the government to decide, and so I am pro-choice.

I believe that all governments are corrupt, and if not then they soon will be.

I believe that guns, if possible, should not be used, though I do not think they should be banned. However, I do believe that more gun control does equal less gun crime.

I believe that no country should launch a pre-emptive strike on any other country unless there is absolute proof that doing so will save lives.

I am against cencorship and prohibition in any form.

I am for the complete seperation of church and state.

If i'm a liberal, then I dont give a shit - i'm a liberal. However, I will not ignore or rebuke a conservative view just because it is that; a conservative view. I believe everybody should listen to every point of view with an open mind, and make the decision based on the facts, not on whether the particular opinion is too liberal or too conservative. It is because of this that people like Hydrizzle and amsterdam wreck my head, as they are too quick to dismiss something as stupid because it is different to what they think.

I pretty much agree with that. I don't have a set of laws that I always think are right, I just do what seems right. Not necessarily what I think will be the best for me.

[GHoSToKeR]

nothing is wrong with greed until you start manipulating or harming others to acquire what you want

[ShamanicHippy]

you might be a democrat if:

-you cant talk about foreign policy without using the word conspiracy.

-you think solar energy is being held back by those greedy oil companies.

-your high school year book goals included the words "help people"

-you actually expect to collect social security.

-you would rather own birkenstock rather than Merck stock

-you think the flat tax should be at 95%

-you admire the swedish welfare system

-you trust ted kennedy when he says she was driving

-you have ever said "we should really call the aclu about this."

-you keep count of how many people you know in each racial or ethnic category

-you believe that a few hundred loggers can find another career,but the defenseless spotted owl must live in its preferred tree.

-you think the free market is where they hand out govt. cheese.
Quite true. however you forgot.
-you feel the need to implement more laws on all citizens because how would they get by without the govt.
-you think that govt should regulate every aspect of our lives. exept morality, how could you ever let right and wrong influence someone's decisions.
-you beleive in free money to the poor for as long as they want. govt health care, govt housing, and govt control of busines. and yet you insist that republicans are for big business and you most certainly are not.
-you think that all minorities are downtrodden and must receive help getting into college. they really couldn't do it on their own merits (I am not being racist here. I have heard liberals say things to this effect)
-you think that wealth = evil, except yourself of course
-you believe that people have a right to illegally enter our country and
-you think that farm animals should be treated like beloved pets and really shouldn't be killed

[Looker]

I dunno personally I voted for this man.....

Its a free country, right??

[U4EUH]

you cant talk about foreign policy without using the word conspiracy
While ironically Torog appears to be the biggest conspiracy theorist on here, just look at my signature.

[Kombucha]

Ha ha! I like the signature! With such excessive use of commas it can be none other than everyone's favourite racist, homophobic, self-righteous Republican, Torog.

I'm gonna use that on MSN I think.

[likemclever]

Where's Blue Cat she started this shit fight.......

[GHoSToKeR]

Sorry, BlueCat.. I just realised that nobody has actually answered your question.

The answer is: Nothing is wrong with being a liberal. :)

[BlueCat]

Not doing well today...I will get back to you...but heres a little to chew on...
The history channel had a great show on the truth about Lincoln the other night ...you should look for a repeat....Oh and BTW those same Iraqi women you "allowed" to vote as if that is our job to do....you guys always avoid the fact that your reason for invasion was WMD that did not exist...but tell a lie enough times....anyway those same women are throwing rocks and cocktails at the Army doctors and nurse vechicles as they go from one spot to the next...yelling GET OUT AMERICANS! One soldier got his legs almost blow off today...the armour saved him but he is still a mess. Just got that report first hand...THEY the IRAQI men and women want us out and the soldiers want to leave...so its not rocket science....a 2nd grader could figure out what to do next...
And please don't stand around waving your flag unless your willing to stand in the line of fire...

heres a little about your beloved republican.....

Many people believe that even in the darkest days of the Civil War Lincoln was steadfast in his resolve to free the slaves. Nothing can be farther from the truth. He had slaves and was known to use racial slurs a lot...
Lincoln was walking a political tight rope. He had to keep his powerful abolitionist supporters happy, but was fearful of losing the support of the loyal border states whose economy was still based on slavery. His real resolve was to win the war. He had to balance the support of those who wished to destroy the South with those who were increasingly alarmed by the bloodshed and looked to comprise as a solution to ending the war.

The biggest myth about Lincoln was that he freed all the slaves. Actually Lincoln never did free all the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation only proclaimed the slaves in all territories held by the Confederates free, but didn't free any of the slaves in the North. It also did not apply to the border states and their 300,000 slaves. It was just a political move to get support in Europe and to encourage the slaves to rebel and cause trouble in the South.


Later Cat

[BlueCat]

If youâ??re not a liberal when youâ??re in your 20's you havenâ??t got a heart; if youâ??re not a conservative by the time youâ??re 40 you havenâ??t got a brain.

that is GOLDEN! love it... :D

[BlueCat]

well Fengzi you speak the truth...mostly....there are many liberals...young ones mostly..looking for a new Che Rev. without really knowing what they are supporting...but thats how you learn...its the ones with no voice that worry me.
And if there were not protests things would be swept under the rug...for instance I did not know how bad WTO was until the protests started and I started my own researching....I do think you are over generalizing when it comes to liberals...I know a lot of them that are in the loop and know exactly what is going on with our goverment...and if you do then you know the truth is things will only get worse for the USA...a lot worse...the checks and balances did not work...for me it is time to kick into survival mode...and head south once the Central Am. freetrade passes and it will the current Admin. the economy will rise and jobs will go up in central america and the good old usa is going to suffer economically...unless your in the top 2% or have a really nice nest egg your in for a bumpy ride....I already have talked to a lot of people just waiting for the aggreement to pass so they can set up shop...there go american jobs...just like happened with American Textile business.
I'm sorry it is that way really....both sides lose...no one wants to see their country go down but Down it is headed...because of the amsterdams, and Torogs that keep the lie going.
I'm headed for a margarita, a little Sensimilla and a sunset on a warm beach at a cheap price....I believe the saying goes love it or it LEAVE it....well you don't have to twist my arm I can see the writing on the wall....so if any of you libby's start feeling the heat you can come party with me and mine....really I should be there by Oct maybe Nov. I'll keep posting...it will be fun

Oh and BTW on the cop taser thing...I had a first hand experience with an asshole cop using a taser on a 14 year old kid...becuase he did not get off his bike fast enough....there was another kid killed in BC by a cop taser...and the 14 year old is true these same cops wrote 211 tickets in one weekend in a closed community of 900 people! It is not the tasers we should be fighting though it is the idiots that are allowed to have them and with the patriot act they have just been given more power.
I am still in litigation concerning the cops or I would tell u more...
Its been nice talking to you....I likes a lot of what you had to say....
have a nice evening....

as for Amsterdam and Torog wouldn't it be Ironic if you got busted by your heros?! hahaha and they found where you had bought ammo and you were labeled a terrorist!
then they put you in jail ...and with the news laws you get NO representation LMAO keep waving that flag....baaaaa baaaa

Smiling Cat

[BlueCat]

Sorry, BlueCat.. I just realised that nobody has actually answered your question.

The answer is: Nothing is wrong with being a liberal. :)


I know.... aint it cool :D

YOU RED COMMIE BASTARDS :mad: ...kidding...PEACE I got some good shit tonight got to sleep it off...GOT TO READ SOMEMORE FIRST...I POSTED TOO MUCH...DAMN

LIBERAL HUGS ALL ROUND...
CAT

[sykobabble]

i am a liberal. i am a hippo kritt. i am a pill popper.no i am a weed head.i am all above plus lots more

[BlueCat]

hahahahahaha...ok

[Smokin2]

Personally for me, I'm an independent. I like it that way, I have a mind of my own and I like to use it as I see fit. I don't pick one side over the other, I never will. I look at the issues at hand, check to see who I think will do the best job based on their opinions, and previous record. Sometimes I'm on the red side, and sometimes I'm on the blue side, and some I vote for the independent. I think we all should vote that way, but it's just my opinion and I'm not trying to change the way anyone thinks. To each his own, to each his own that is what I belive, and I will stay that way. Be true to who you are, and that is all you can do. Bluecat, I support you b/c you feel strongly about your party. Awesome, you found something you believe in and you stick with you. Your being true to yourself, and that is all you can do. That is what I do too.

[BlueCat]

Thats as it should be...so how are you doing smokin2? Hope you're at peace this evening :) I am going to make some cookies...back soon
Cat

[BUZz UK]

lib·er·tine
One who acts without moral restraint; a dissolute person.
One who defies established religious precepts; a freethinker.

adj.
Morally unrestrained; dissolute.

nothing is wrong with being liberal, and nothing is wrong with being a libertine!

[Kombucha]

I think the problem is, a lot of people seem to think that liberal means hates America, loves terrorists, never believes in wars etc.

I doubt anyone here falls into that category. The whole reason people are liberal is because they believe that the world needs to be made better for people. So why would we support terrorism? We just believe that the world isn't perfect, and so changes need to made to move closer to perfection. Is that really stupid?

Also, let me clarify something. "Liberal" is not the same as "Democrat," and "conservative" is not the same as "Republican."

[Torog]

I think the problem is, a lot of people seem to think that liberal means hates America, loves terrorists, never believes in wars etc.

I doubt anyone here falls into that category. The whole reason people are liberal is because they believe that the world needs to be made better for people. So why would we support terrorism? We just believe that the world isn't perfect, and so changes need to made to move closer to perfection. Is that really stupid?

Also, let me clarify something. "Liberal" is not the same as "Democrat," and "conservative" is not the same as "Republican."Howdy Kombucha,

Well...from what I've seen from liberals,they don't like capitalism..so therefore,they don't like America,they do love,anyone who will attack America and Bush,and almost every liberal admin and liberal,likes to do what they can to decimate the military and discourage patriotism..that means that they have to say that there's no just war.

Making the world better,by means of amoral relativism and endless social engineering,is impossible. The Left,continually promotes hedonism and narcisism,despises personal accountability and selflessness,has more excuses than Carter has liver pills,when it comes to doing good,honest hard work..and humility and gratefulness,are not a part of their vocabulary.

Have a good one...

[amsterdam]

those wto protesters do a great service to people and make their cause look real positive.smart people.

[BUZz UK]

[QUOTE=Torog]The Left,continually promotes hedonism and narcisism QUOTE]
lol, since when? it would be good though... ;)

[amsterdam]

Not doing well today...I will get back to you...but heres a little to chew on...
The history channel had a great show on the truth about Lincoln the other night ...you should look for a repeat....Oh and BTW those same Iraqi women you "allowed" to vote as if that is our job to do....you guys always avoid the fact that your reason for invasion was WMD that did not exist...but tell a lie enough times....anyway those same women are throwing rocks and cocktails at the Army doctors and nurse vechicles as they go from one spot to the next...yelling GET OUT AMERICANS! One soldier got his legs almost blow off today...the armour saved him but he is still a mess. Just got that report first hand...THEY the IRAQI men and women want us out and the soldiers want to leave...so its not rocket science....a 2nd grader could figure out what to do next...
And please don't stand around waving your flag unless your willing to stand in the line of fire...

heres a little about your beloved republican.....

Many people believe that even in the darkest days of the Civil War Lincoln was steadfast in his resolve to free the slaves. Nothing can be farther from the truth. He had slaves and was known to use racial slurs a lot...
Lincoln was walking a political tight rope. He had to keep his powerful abolitionist supporters happy, but was fearful of losing the support of the loyal border states whose economy was still based on slavery. His real resolve was to win the war. He had to balance the support of those who wished to destroy the South with those who were increasingly alarmed by the bloodshed and looked to comprise as a solution to ending the war.

The biggest myth about Lincoln was that he freed all the slaves. Actually Lincoln never did free all the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation only proclaimed the slaves in all territories held by the Confederates free, but didn't free any of the slaves in the North. It also did not apply to the border states and their 300,000 slaves. It was just a political move to get support in Europe and to encourage the slaves to rebel and cause trouble in the South.


Later Cat


boy,there really are huge mass protests going on arent there?no.at least they can protest if they want without fear of having chemical weapons used against them like saddam did in the early 90's.

[amsterdam]

you must have just returned from iraq?i know the history channel really gives you a good ear to the iraqi street.have you even been to the middle east in the past two years?or are you just talking out your ass as usual?

[Kombucha]

It's funny how no matter how much evidence is placed in front of you nose, you can still continue to argue against it with absolutely nothing to back you up except for "funny" pictures.

Torog, you are so damned paranoid! I am liberal. I do not support terrorists. I do not support killing in any way. I dislike America, but I do not support physical attacks on it. Liberals do not automatically oppose America. Liberals do not support terrorism. Terrorists are extreme conservatives in general. The ones blowing people up in Iraq are clearly opposed to the changes. Therefore they are conservative. Grow up, and try using your brain for once, don't just spew your idiotic Southern paranoid bullshit everywhere.

[GHoSToKeR]

Right on, Kombucha! :):):)

[BlueCat]

Terrorists are extreme conservatives in general. The ones blowing people up in Iraq are clearly opposed to the changes. Therefore they are conservative. Grow up, and try using your brain for once, don't just spew your idiotic Southern paranoid bullshit everywhere.


perfectly said :)

[clevemire]

Personally for me, I'm an independent. I like it that way, I have a mind of my own and I like to use it as I see fit. I don't pick one side over the other, I never will. I look at the issues at hand, check to see who I think will do the best job based on their opinions, and previous record. Sometimes I'm on the red side, and sometimes I'm on the blue side, and some I vote for the independent. I think we all should vote that way, but it's just my opinion and I'm not trying to change the way anyone thinks. To each his own, to each his own that is what I belive, and I will stay that way. Be true to who you are, and that is all you can do. Bluecat, I support you b/c you feel strongly about your party. Awesome, you found something you believe in and you stick with you. Your being true to yourself, and that is all you can do. That is what I do too.I'm with you 100%. I don't take sides, either. I fight for what I personally believe in, and I keep to myself. Classification is for the ignorant, who are too numb-skulled to take in and respect all of the differences between every human.

If a person spends too much time worrying about other people (what they are doing, thinking, feeling etc.), they will ultimately forget themself..

[del...]

So why do you all need guns then, if there's no gun crime elsewhere?

you must have missed it earlier...let me refresh your memory:

we own them because we can...what's so hard to understand about that? we still live in a somewhat free society...which also means we are still free to own firearms. period.

[Kombucha]

You must have missed my point. Amsterdam said that you all need guns to protect yourselves from other guns. Then he said all the gun-crime was in ghettos... That doesn't add up, I simply pointed it out.

Plus, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to to. I can stab myself if I want, but I'm not going to. I don't have to recycle, but I still do.

It's called being responsible.

[del...]

BlueCat said:
<snipped> He [Lincoln] had slaves and was known to use racial slurs a lot...<snipped>

The biggest myth about Lincoln was that he freed all the slaves. Actually Lincoln never did free all the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation only proclaimed the slaves in all territories held by the Confederates free, but didn't free any of the slaves in the North. It also did not apply to the border states and their 300,000 slaves. It was just a political move to get support in Europe and to encourage the slaves to rebel and cause trouble in the South.
<snipped>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

what a bunch of bullshit. i watched the same show and saw absolutely nothing about lincoln being a slave owner. he's from illinois, for christ's sake! that was NOT a slave state! his proclamation stated ALL men are free, no exclusions. what show did you watch? maybe you took too many breaks while it was on and missed what it was all about...

[del...]

and don't even bring up slavery. it was you europeans who started that shit over here. we ended it. granted it took longer than it should have, but nevertheless, we ended it on our own.

[Kombucha]

So what? Europeans started it before America even existed. You then continued it for a long time before abolishing it. Britain abolished slavery all over the British Empire in 1833. France abolished slavery in their colonies in 1794. The USA was one of the last to get rid of it, and was still legally racist well into the 1960s.

[del...]

we continued it for 60 years after becoming free from the royalty and only 27 years after britain...so what's your point? you infused our country with slavery (along with the dutch, portugese and spanish) 100's of years before.

and legally racist??? wtf is that about? as if you all are welcoming the ethinics into your countries today!?!?

sheesh...

[GHoSToKeR]

stop fighting.. damn.. youre not even debating anything anymore, youre just fighting..

[del...]

oh, go back to your munchie postings...

[TheLion]

Don't worry toker, I love you munchie postings. Yaaaaaaaaaaam?

[Torog]

BlueCat said:
<snipped> He [Lincoln] had slaves and was known to use racial slurs a lot...<snipped>

The biggest myth about Lincoln was that he freed all the slaves. Actually Lincoln never did free all the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation only proclaimed the slaves in all territories held by the Confederates free, but didn't free any of the slaves in the North. It also did not apply to the border states and their 300,000 slaves. It was just a political move to get support in Europe and to encourage the slaves to rebel and cause trouble in the South.
<snipped>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

what a bunch of bullshit. i watched the same show and saw absolutely nothing about lincoln being a slave owner. he's from illinois, for christ's sake! that was NOT a slave state! his proclamation stated ALL men are free, no exclusions. what show did you watch? maybe you took too many breaks while it was on and missed what it was all about...
Howdy del,

Thanx for that clarification...

Have a good one !

[Torog]

While ironically Torog appears to be the biggest conspiracy theorist on here, just look at my signature.
Howdy U4EUH,

My statement: "The fact is,is that muslims,homosexuals and liberals,are all plotting,even as we speak,against America,family values and Christianity. It ain't a theroretical conspiracy either,it's rooted in fact."

It is a factual statement,not only are the anti-American muslims plotting against the US,but the entire Free World,as well..homosexual activists,are international in the scope of their activities,and liberals are always plotting against everyone that is not a liberal. As a veteran,I do not formulate my friend or foe list,based on conspiracies,it is incumbent upon me,to deal in facts..not surround every issue in infinite shades of gray..I have to 'git-r-done'..in order to ensure the safety of America..as a citizen/soldier..and as a father.

Have a good one...

[Torog]

[QUOTE=Torog]The Left,continually promotes hedonism and narcisism QUOTE]
lol, since when? it would be good though... ;)
Howdy Buzz,

Since the early '60's..when the modern liberals emerged...'if it feels good--do it...' .

Have a good one ....

[Torog]

It's funny how no matter how much evidence is placed in front of you nose, you can still continue to argue against it with absolutely nothing to back you up except for "funny" pictures.

Torog, you are so damned paranoid! I am liberal. I do not support terrorists. I do not support killing in any way. I dislike America, but I do not support physical attacks on it. Liberals do not automatically oppose America. Liberals do not support terrorism. Terrorists are extreme conservatives in general. The ones blowing people up in Iraq are clearly opposed to the changes. Therefore they are conservative. Grow up, and try using your brain for once, don't just spew your idiotic Southern paranoid bullshit everywhere.
Howdy Kombucha,

Paranoia,can save your life,if it's a 'healthy' paranoia.

I like these 2 sayings:

" Only the paranoid survive ! "

" 100% paranoia=100% awareness "

As for liberals,they hate Bush,so anyone that attacks Bush and the Right,is their friend..that would mean that terrorists fall into the category of "the enemy of my enemy..is my friend..". Since liberals despise capitalism,that does make them automatic enemies of America..Professor Ward Churchhill revealed the feelings of liberals,when he said " the people in the twin towers,were little eichmann's,that deserved to die.."

It appears that you feel that the only enemy in the world,is Bush and right-wing Americans,if that's so..then I find that it is you,that needs to grow up and face reality.

Btw,do you label the insurgents(cold-blooded,murdering terrorists) in Iraq,as 'freedom fighters' ?

Have a good one...

[DonnieDarko]

The problem with liberals in the US is they they spend all of their time attacking conservative ideas and politicians.

Liberals should spend alot more time promoting new and radical ideas for change. Liberals should better communicate what they believe in and not apologize or compromise for their beliefs.

Where are all of the peace/tokers of the 60's and 70's ?? Are they all NOT in politics ?? Or have they compromised their core beliefs. Why are they silent ???

Anyway, BlueCat is a very cool lib, and the Dante's Infreno reference is right on target. I read it in high school (in Italian).

[Kombucha]

Howdy Kombucha,

Paranoia,can save your life,if it's a 'healthy' paranoia.

I like these 2 sayings:

" Only the paranoid survive ! "

" 100% paranoia=100% awareness "

As for liberals,they hate Bush,so anyone that attacks Bush and the Right,is their friend..that would mean that terrorists fall into the category of "the enemy of my enemy..is my friend..". Since liberals despise capitalism,that does make them automatic enemies of America..Professor Ward Churchhill revealed the feelings of liberals,when he said " the people in the twin towers,were little eichmann's,that deserved to die.."

It appears that you feel that the only enemy in the world,is Bush and right-wing Americans,if that's so..then I find that it is you,that needs to grow up and face reality.

Btw,do you label the insurgents(cold-blooded,murdering terrorists) in Iraq,as 'freedom fighters' ?

Have a good one...

That's not true at all. The ends don't always justify the means. You might not like someone, but if they were murdered you wouldn't be happy would you?



we continued it for 60 years after becoming free from the royalty and only 27 years after britain...so what's your point? you infused our country with slavery (along with the dutch, portugese and spanish) 100's of years before.

and legally racist??? wtf is that about? as if you all are welcoming the ethinics into your countries today!?!?

sheesh...


My point is, you made it sound as if you led the world in freeing slaves, when you clearly didn't.

As for "legally racist," what I mean is the Jim Crow laws, Segregation.

A lot of people don't welcome immigrants (generally those from the Middle East or Eastern Europe) into this country, but it's not based in law, it's just people being idiots.

[Juggalotus17]

I'm a twiztid serial killin' bud tokin' juggalo. and thats for life biaaatch.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Since liberals despise capitalism,that does make them automatic enemies of America

Torog, I am a liberal and I'm also studying business in college. Your assumption that all liberals are communists and enemies of the state is laughably childish and misguided. Of course, capitalism has great potential to bring good to nations, the shining example of which is the quality of life many Americans enjoy today, being able to buy the latest and greatest goods at low prices driven down by competition. However, only a fool would believe that capitalism is flawless and does not have the ability to hurt nations, a perfect example of which is the inhumane and gruesome child labor at the turn of the century, all in the name of the capitalistic values of producing the most product for the least cost. I don't hate capitalism, as it is the very thing that will allow me to buy a house and raise a family later in life. However, managing it responsibly before it can hurt people is a paramount concern of liberals, and should be for conservatives too. Torog, do you want your children drinking milk with pus in it, just because a company producing a sickening bovine growth hormone is unregulated? These issues affect everybody.

[naturalmystic]

I think Thoroau was a true liberal. He was gung hoe for change. He even said he couldn't live the same way for an extended period of time. When he lived at Walden Pond, he left after 2 years becasue he had lived the life and there was nothing more to live.

[Dick Justice]

Don't touch this one...

Don't touch this one....

Don't touch this one...

[U4EUH]

Is Torog real? Like...hes a real person living some where??

He literally said that people against war are unpatriotic and social engineering. He keeps saying liberals hate capitalism and only like others who trash talk Bush and republicans whilst he is only making stereotypes about 'liberals'...or is it people against war...or homosexuals? Or are they all the same in his eyes?

[Kombucha]

I think everyone who is liberal/Muslim/anti-war/gay/generally different is evil to Torog.

[Torog]

Torog, I am a liberal and I'm also studying business in college. Your assumption that all liberals are communists and enemies of the state is laughably childish and misguided. Of course, capitalism has great potential to bring good to nations, the shining example of which is the quality of life many Americans enjoy today, being able to buy the latest and greatest goods at low prices driven down by competition. However, only a fool would believe that capitalism is flawless and does not have the ability to hurt nations, a perfect example of which is the inhumane and gruesome child labor at the turn of the century, all in the name of the capitalistic values of producing the most product for the least cost. I don't hate capitalism, as it is the very thing that will allow me to buy a house and raise a family later in life. However, managing it responsibly before it can hurt people is a paramount concern of liberals, and should be for conservatives too. Torog, do you want your children drinking milk with pus in it, just because a company producing a sickening bovine growth hormone is unregulated? These issues affect everybody.
Howdy Sgt. Pepper,

I do realize that capitalism is not perfect and that you are justified to be concerned about it's bad side-effects. Man is not perfect and never will be,and is often driven by desire and greed. However,there has to be a balance of regulatory controls,and liberals have a tendency to want to drive up the operating costs of any given company,with excessive regulation or taxation.

I believe that the Left in this country,is so desperate to regain power in the White House,that they'd burn down America,with or without help(muslim jihadists). Certainly,Hillary Clinton has stated on more than one occasion,that she would take more American income away,for her socialist programs that she wants to institute. She would penalize businesses on every level,which would ruin the economy and the job market. A vote for Clinton in '08,would be a vote for a socialist America.

Have a good one....

[Torog]

Is Torog real? Like...hes a real person living some where??

He literally said that people against war are unpatriotic and social engineering. He keeps saying liberals hate capitalism and only like others who trash talk Bush and republicans whilst he is only making stereotypes about 'liberals'...or is it people against war...or homosexuals? Or are they all the same in his eyes?
Howdy U4,

You better believe that I'm real ! I live in North Central Texas and yer welcome to come and visit anytime you want. Just be sure to drive the speed limit,especially if yer bringin any smoke with ya :) The cops are mostly redneck in the rural areas where I'm at,the city-slicker cops are usually too busy to be much of a problem.

I ain't as nearly redneck as most of the folks around here,they are much worse than me and believe that most of America's ills and problems,are the fault of liberals,gays and muslim jihadists..also..add France to that list,and any euro's that want to appease the terrorists.

What part of America are ya from ? Are you an American ?

Have a good one....

[Kombucha]

Oh well, even if you are mis-informed, you're still all right, Torog :)

[Torog]

Oh well, even if you are mis-informed, you're still all right, Torog :)
Howdy Kombucha,

Thanx for them kind words..even if you are mis-informed..I still think that you're okay...lol :D

Have a good one !

[Funken Monken]

OK - can someone now post a 'you are a republican if..." type questionnaire on here? Think I should see ifI fit in that one any better.....

[PurplePotatoes]

Although it was the Democrats in the south that wanted to keep slavery and the evangelistic republicans up in the north wanted to abolish it, you must also think of this. The REPUBLICANS were the ones who didn't want the blacks to gain any rights during the Civil rights moevment (blindly, saying it was that way and it should be this way for the rest of time), while the democrats/liberals, were protesting the black oppression and wanted equal rights in general.

Oh yeah, you say the conservative folk around you (that aren't hippies like you) pick on gay people. Do they also pick on black people? Because I'm trying to understand why you still try to bring up the slaves argument...

But Torog, I really don't like the fact you're so paranoid :( . I mean, I guess it's good in some sense, but I guess in social situations it could be a bad thing.

And Torog, what's your favorite president? I know my favorite president, and it's a Democrat alright :D .

And Torog, we love you but you're so.. for a lack of better words... weird? We aren't trying to change you or change your beliefs (except for the gay marriage thread you somewhat had an epiphany, if it still holds true on how you feel), but we just want to understand where you're coming from. You just seem so alienated from the rest of people (maybe your part of Texas is it's own little country?), not saying it's wrong, but just kinda strange.

Thanks! :D

[BlueCat]

maybe it was you that stepped out of the room during the history channels Lincoln....I tried to find a transcript but have not had any luck...they were not as detailed as this article from the washington post but the history channel did mention this book and some of its contents....it was toward the end of the show...really though with rasicm as bad as it was in the 50s and 60s why should we be surprised?

THE WASHINGTON TIMES
May 26, 2000

Abraham Lincoln "was a racist who opposed equal rights for black people, who loved minstrel shows, who used the N-word, who wanted to deport all blacks," a veteran journalist and historian says.

"There has been a systematic attempt to keep the American public from knowing the real Lincoln and the depth of his commitment to white supremacy," says Lerone Bennett Jr., whose new book, "Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream," examines Lincoln's record.

Drawing on historical documents, "Forced Into Glory" chronicles Lincoln's racial beliefs and his actions toward blacks and slavery:

* Lincoln publicly referred to blacks by the most offensive racial slur. In one speech, Lincoln said he opposed the expansion of slavery into the territories because he didn't want the West "to become an asylum for slavery and n-----s."

* Lincoln was, in the words of one friend, "especially fond of Negro minstrel shows," attending blackface performances in Chicago and Washington. At an 1860 performance of Rumsey and Newcomb's Minstrels, Lincoln "clapped his great hands, demanding an encore, louder than anyone" when the minstrels performed "Dixie." Lincoln was also fond of what he called "darky" jokes, Mr. Bennett documents.

* Lincoln envisioned and advocated an all-white West, declaring at Alton, Ill., in 1858, that he was "in favor of our new territories being in such a condition that white men may find a home ... as an outlet for free white people everywhere, the world over."

* Lincoln supported his home state's law, passed in 1853, forbidding blacks to move to Illinois. The Illinois state constitution, adopted in 1848, called for laws to "effectually prohibit free persons of color from immigrating to and settling in this state."

* Lincoln blamed blacks for the Civil War, telling them, "But for your race among us there could not be a war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another."

* Lincoln claimed that "the people of Mexico are most decidedly a race of mongrels. I understand that there is not more than one person there out of eight who is pure white."

* Repeatedly over the course of his career, Lincoln urged that American blacks be sent to Africa or elsewhere.

In 1854, Lincoln declared his "first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia; to their own native land." In 1860, Lincoln called for the "emancipation and deportation" of slaves.

In his State of the Union addresses as president, he twice called for the deportation of blacks. In 1865, in the last days of his life, Lincoln said of blacks, "I believe it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves."

Such facts may not be well-known, but they are "not hidden in the records. ... You can't read the Lincoln record without realizing all that," Mr. Bennett says.



Pretty interesting,eh?
Cat

[Torog]

Although it was the Democrats in the south that wanted to keep slavery and the evangelistic republicans up in the north wanted to abolish it, you must also think of this. The REPUBLICANS were the ones who didn't want the blacks to gain any rights during the Civil rights moevment (blindly, saying it was that way and it should be this way for the rest of time), while the democrats/liberals, were protesting the black oppression and wanted equal rights in general.

Oh yeah, you say the conservative folk around you (that aren't hippies like you) pick on gay people. Do they also pick on black people? Because I'm trying to understand why you still try to bring up the slaves argument...

But Torog, I really don't like the fact you're so paranoid :( . I mean, I guess it's good in some sense, but I guess in social situations it could be a bad thing.

And Torog, what's your favorite president? I know my favorite president, and it's a Democrat alright :D .

And Torog, we love you but you're so.. for a lack of better words... weird? We aren't trying to change you or change your beliefs (except for the gay marriage thread you somewhat had an epiphany, if it still holds true on how you feel), but we just want to understand where you're coming from. You just seem so alienated from the rest of people (maybe your part of Texas is it's own little country?), not saying it's wrong, but just kinda strange.

Thanks! :D
Howdy Purple,

Actually,it's not the conservative folks ,per se,that pick on gays and blacks,it's the rednecks that do that,most of the conservatives around here,behave for the most part.

As for talk about slavery,I think that Blue Cat,brought that up first..I think..let me be clear,I don't approve of slavery,and my fellow Christians,are buying Christians out of slavery,at the hands of muslims,even as we speak. But I reckon,that since it's Christians being enslaved by muslims,no one cares..and many probably approve.

As for my 'paranoia'..it's really the awareness and alertness,that every citizen/soldier,should embrace. I have been on a war-time footing,since 9/11/01..it's my sworn duty..to be alert and responsive to any domestic or foreign threat.

My favorite president,is Ronald Reagan.

I do still believe that it was wrong for the Christian lady to act the way she did..my feelings about that,have not changed.

Yup..Texas is a 'whole 'nother country'..and you best not forgit it ! lol

Here in Texas,we love America and what it stands for,and we have the guts and the spine,to back it up..in the rest of America,folks are being told that they should be ashamed of what America stands for..I ain't having any part of that..and today,on Memorial Day,we honor those who've given their lives,so that other might be free.

Have a good one ....

[Button Basher]

I have to say I admire that. Our VE day was nothing short of half-arsed this year.

Commemorating those that served has become something for old people in this country. :(

[IntrepidS]

The way I see it, conservatives are always missing a part of the picture. Since their views are so one-sided, they are blinded from seeing and understanding many very important things. The liberals are the truly the smart people of our world. Sure, they may not be making millions of dollars a year, but they sure as hell undesrand what's best for you, for me, and for our world.

I think conservative views are for those who are mindless, and are unable to form their own values and ideals regarding our world.

[Kombucha]

Howdy Purple,

Actually,it's not the conservative folks ,per se,that pick on gays and blacks,it's the rednecks that do that,most of the conservatives around here,behave for the most part.

As for talk about slavery,I think that Blue Cat,brought that up first..I think..let me be clear,I don't approve of slavery,and my fellow Christians,are buying Christians out of slavery,at the hands of muslims,even as we speak. But I reckon,that since it's Christians being enslaved by muslims,no one cares..and many probably approve.

As for my 'paranoia'..it's really the awareness and alertness,that every citizen/soldier,should embrace. I have been on a war-time footing,since 9/11/01..it's my sworn duty..to be alert and responsive to any domestic or foreign threat.

My favorite president,is Ronald Reagan.

I do still believe that it was wrong for the Christian lady to act the way she did..my feelings about that,have not changed.

Yup..Texas is a 'whole 'nother country'..and you best not forgit it ! lol

Here in Texas,we love America and what it stands for,and we have the guts and the spine,to back it up..in the rest of America,folks are being told that they should be ashamed of what America stands for..I ain't having any part of that..and today,on Memorial Day,we honor those who've given their lives,so that other might be free.

Have a good one ....

Don't forget that not all Muslims are extremists. In fact, very few are. Some of them have been corrupted by bastards, and some of them have just always been bastards. Those that feel the need to murder and fight America are, funnily enough, extreme conservatives. They just believe in conserving different things to you.

[amsterdam]

The way I see it, conservatives are always missing a part of the picture. Since their views are so one-sided, they are blinded from seeing and understanding many very important things. The liberals are the truly the smart people of our world. Sure, they may not be making millions of dollars a year, but they sure as hell undesrand what's best for you, for me, and for our world.

I think conservative views are for those who are mindless, and are unable to form their own values and ideals regarding our world.


amazing thought process you have.

[BUZz UK]

[QUOTE=Torog]'if it feels good--do it...' QUOTE]
you said it ;)