Parents Sue N.J. School for 'God' Song Ban

[Torog]

Parents Sue N.J. School for 'God' Song Ban
May 20, 2005 10:10 PM EDT

NEWARK, N.J. - A public school prohibited a second grader from singing a religious song at a talent show, prompting a lawsuit Friday alleging violation of the girl's constitutional rights.

A federal judge declined an emergency request to compel Frenchtown Elementary School to allow 8-year-old Olivia Turton to sing "Awesome God" at the Friday night show, but allowed the lawsuit to go forward.

School officials in the western New Jersey community had said the performance would be inappropriate at a school event. A message seeking comment from a school board attorney about the judge's ruling was not immediately returned.

The decision by U.S. District Judge Stanley R. Chesler in Trenton to consider the case later came just hours before Olivia had hoped to sing the pop song by the late Rich Mullins.

One verse has these lyrics: "Our God is an awesome God/He reigns from heaven above/with wisdom, pow'r and love/Our God is an awesome God."

The girl was told May 10 that she could not sing the song. Her mother, Maryann Turton, protested at a school board meeting that night. She was told three days later by Joyce Brennan, the school superintendent and principal, that the religious content made it inappropriate at school, according to the lawsuit filed by the child's parents Friday morning.

The lawsuit charges that the school board violated Olivia's constitutional rights to freedom of speech and due process.

The lawsuit, supported by the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group based in Scottsdale, Ariz., argues that the constitutional separation of church and state does not restrict an individual's religious speech.

The girl's lawyer, Demetrios K. Stratis, questioned how the Frenchtown school could reject Olivia's choice but allow another act based on the opening scene of "MacBeth."

"They've got a scene about boiling animals and witchcraft, but they won't allow a song about God," Stratis said.

[Torog]

Howdy Y'all,

This is what pissed me off:

"They've got a scene about boiling animals and witchcraft, but they won't allow a song about God," Stratis said.

I think it's obvious,that liberal educators are trying to revive paganism,while banning and denying,Constitutional rights..I can only hope that they are made to regret their bald-faced attempt at denying Constitutional rights..to Christian children.

I'm almost certain,that if a muslim child were to utter "Allah akbar !",on stage and in a loud voice..they would cheer..but a little girl,acknowledging that God is awesome..is too much for them to bear..give me a break !

Have a good one....

[Button Basher]

'Sup Torog.

For once, I understand your anger. I wouldn't doubt a song like that would be out of place in a children's play but that shouldn't deny the poor kid the right to sing it. It's totally harmless, what are they expecting to happen?

Keep in mind the quaint nature of children's school productions :p , i'm sure the boiling animals/witchcraft scenes arn't exactly hate-filled, pro-pagan rituals, but the reasons for banning any kind of harmless performance from an innocent child is beyond me.

[Torog]

'Sup Torog.

For once, I understand your anger. I wouldn't doubt a song like that would be out of place in a children's play but that shouldn't deny the poor kid the right to sing it. It's totally harmless, what are they expecting to happen?

Keep in mind the quaint nature of children's school productions :p , i'm sure the boiling animals/witchcraft scenes arn't exactly hate-filled, pro-pagan rituals, but the reasons for banning any kind of harmless performance from an innocent child is beyond me.
Howdy BB,

Wow..we agree on something ! lol

I'll tell ya what the liberal educators are allegedly worried about..lawsuits by those who are offended at Christianity..but that's really just a convenient excuse,to continue their campaign against Christian familys. They best be worried about lawsuits coming from Christians..we do have some well financed legal defense organizations on our side.

Hav a good one...

[amsterdam]

thats why my kids are going to a private catholic school.they are going to be punished,they are going to sing the star spangled banner everyday,they are going to be able to study the declaration of independence,etc.,etc.

[bhallg2k]

Howdy Y'all,

This is what pissed me off:

"They've got a scene about boiling animals and witchcraft, but they won't allow a song about God," Stratis said.

I think it's obvious,that liberal educators are trying to revive paganism,while banning and denying,Constitutional rights..I can only hope that they are made to regret their bald-faced attempt at denying Constitutional rights..to Christian children.


There you go again.

Just when you were making a good point about the repression of free speech, you had to fuck it up by implying that because they allowed a scene about "boiling animals and witchcraft," they are "trying to revive paganism." That's just absolutely stupid and only those who play on fear, such as yourself and your heroes, O'Reilly and Limbaugh, would ever make that connection.

Honestly, by your rationale, they were correct to stop the girl from singing about God. If their giving permission to perform is a tacit endorsement of the song or scene's subject matter, then by law, they are not permitted to allow her to perform a God song. Because that would be them promoting God. Nor should they have allowed the "witch" scene for the same reason. And I should not have been able to act in "The Crucible" in high school.

They were wrong to stop her from singing. Just say that and you win.

And your little ACLU bash is way off the mark. If anything, the ACLU would support this girl because she wasn't treated fairly under the law. That's what the ACLU does, they protect liberties, contrary to most right-wingers' moronic notions.

[amsterdam]

There you go again.

Just when you were making a good point about the repression of free speech, you had to fuck it up by implying that because they allowed a scene about "boiling animals and witchcraft," they are "trying to revive paganism." That's just absolutely stupid and only those who play on fear, such as yourself and your heroes, O'Reilly and Limbaugh, would ever make that connection.

Honestly, by your rationale, they were correct to stop the girl from singing about God. If their giving permission to perform is a tacit endorsement of the song or scene's subject matter, then by law, they are not permitted to allow her to perform a God song. Because that would be them promoting God. Nor should they have allowed the "witch" song for the same reason. And I should not have been able to act in "The Crucible" in high school.

They were wrong to stop her from singing. Just say that and you win.

And your little ACLU bash is way off the mark. If anything, the ACLU would support this girl because she wasn't treated fairly under the law.


the aclu is a joke in this country.

[amsterdam]

like jesse jackson or al gore.

[Torog]

thats why my kids are going to a private catholic school.they are going to be punished,they are going to sing the star spangled banner everyday,they are going to be able to study the declaration of independence,etc.,etc.
Howdy amsterdam,

Good for you ! I tell you what,one of the quickest ways to freak out a liberal educator,is pull yer kids out of school,and put them in a private school or home-schooling..for every kid that leaves the public school system,there's a corresponding drop in federal money to the public school..heck,just missing a few days,results in a drop of federal(our money)funds,to public schools..I've even recieved letters,from the school,begging parents to ensure that kids don't take off sick or whatever reason..because it would impact how much money they recieve from the goverment.

Have a good one !

[amsterdam]

it is outta control.

[bhallg2k]

Knock on public schools at your own peril. You really don't want to start that argument.

[amsterdam]

let me tell ya,american schools provide a great learning enviroment.american kids are dumb as rocks.they had to make the S.A.T. easier.

private school for my kids.

[Torog]

Knock on public schools at your own peril. You really don't want to start that argument.
Howdy bhall,

Okay,I'll bite..why should we not 'knock on public schools ' ?

I'm not ashamed to admit,that I was publicly schooled,but it was at a time,just before schools started gittin more liberal and agenda-oriented,and they dealt in facts..rather than re-writing history,in order to push an agenda.

Have a good one ....

[amsterdam]

re-writing history is right!!

[bhallg2k]

Howdy bhall,

Okay,I'll bite..why should we not 'knock on public schools ' ?

I'm not ashamed to admit,that I was publicly schooled,but it was at a time,just before schools started gittin more liberal and agenda-oriented,and they dealt in facts..rather than re-writing history,in order to push an agenda.

Have a good one ....

Ok, you're not the best example to use for public education. Your grammar and clerical skills are terrible.

And, honestly, when was the last time you sat in a classroom to discover what is being taught? Do you really know what kids are being exposed to, or do you just believe everything you hear on TV and the radio? It's almost comical all the things you spout off as fact.

First off, there is no "agenda" to a teacher's methods. All a teacher wants is for a kid to pay attention and be respectful. That's it. Not once in my public education did anyone tell me who to vote for, what god to believe in or what politics to subscribe to. In fact, if asked, they wouldn't even talk about it out of the fear of being unduly influential.

Second, how is history being rewritten? If something is taught that doesn't immediately bow down to the party line, is that rewriting history?

America is not a bad place. America is not a bad country. Let me repeat those things again so as not to be accused of hating America: America is not a bad place. America is not a bad country. But...America has done bad things in the past, things that cannot be dismissed. What in the hell is wrong with kids being taught that? Do you want kids to learn or be indoctrinated?

Third, if you want good people to become teachers, try paying them decent money. I've seen the people in my girlfriend's education classes. These are not the people you want teaching your kids. But it's really damn hard to lure good students into education programs because there is so little pay for the extremely hard work that needs to be done. Beyond that, if you're a teacher, you're still gonna have to pay out of pocket for class supplies. When you don't support teachers over a long enough period of time, the people you want to have teaching your kids decide to go into something more lucrative. Republicans, and only Republicans, have been the reason for the cuts in school funds and teachers' pay.

"No Child Left Behind," Bush's incredibly ridiculous misuse of a name. It really should be called "Kids, You Better Fucking Catch Up Now Before All The Money Is Gone." NCLB is draining funds from the schools that need it most. NCLB is forcing teachers, with the threat of losing their job or closing their school, to teach kids ONLY what is being tested on. Music classes? Gone. Art? Gone. Even PE in some states? Gone. Those extra, important things, that studies have shown over and over again to improve math and science scores, are gone. If the federal government isn't testing on it, kids ain't learning it. Here's the kicker: the government isn't even funding their own initiative! How crazy is that? Knowing that state budgets are shrinking because of these wonderful deficits caused by tax cuts for the rich, the feds still haven't given the states the money to carry out this atrocity to its intended purpose.

That's not to say that teachers shouldn't be held accountable. They should. Tenure is an idea whose time has passed. No teacher should be given a blank check, so to speak, just because they've taught for a while. At the same time, you can't motivate students or teachers with a "gun to the head" approach. Even with NCLB being underfunded, if it wasn't going to work, it would've some positive results by now.

Property taxes. What y'all country folk don't realize is that in the cities, where most people live, property taxes still pay for schools like they do for you. But in order to attract businesses to inner city areas in an attempt to revitalize them, city councils cut property taxes, thus cutting public education funding. And with little federal funding, the kids are the ones who lose out. Come to Philly and I'll show you how fucked up this is.

How is a kid expected to learn when he shares a textbook with three other kids? How can a kid get excited about learning when coming to school means sitting in a trailer with little heat or A/C with 35 of his classmates packed in like sardines? How can at-risk kids be given a chance when after school programs, along with healthcare, are the first items to go on the Republican budget chopping block? It makes no sense.

Higher education. Bush and the GOP have cut financial aid for kids to go to college. Student loans and grants have been cut across the board. It goes without saying what this does to the overall education level of our country.

God, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm just tired of writing about it. But I don't think any Republican should dare knock the conditions of public schools. Their deterioration, and that of our kids' educations, are entirely your fault. If you choke something long enough, which is what Reagan started, it's going to die.

[amsterdam]

maybe a government controled system would work better?like health care?

[XTC]

Kudos post to Bhall. Awesome post. Nailed the facts down right. I can vouch for these "agendas" not once did any teachers told me what politics were good, whether God existed or not, or anything of that nature. I once asked a science teacher if he believed in God. he told me to drop the conversation. Further more, "No Child Left Behind", was nothing more than a marketing scheme for the Bush Admin to get "voted" in. I use the term Voted loosely.

[bhallg2k]

maybe a government controled system would work better?like health care?


You're only bashing your own kind with that, buddy. NCLB is an attempt at just that.

I have my own solution. No one would ever go for it, but I can guarantee its success. Take 1/3 of the funds allocated for defense and divert them to public education. Not only will you instantly raise teacher salaries to the point where solid high school and college students would consider being a teacher, you give every kid his own textbooks, you eliminate cramped temporary classrooms, you give kids a place to go after school to continue education and stay out of trouble (read: lower crime), you rebuild crumbling inner-city schools, you fund school lunch and breakfast programs, college tuition becomes nearly free for qualifying students (kind of like the Hope scholarships in GA) and you finally put America at par with how much of a percentage of GDP other industrialized nations spend on education. Moreover, in a generation, you raise a group of smarter citizens who probably wouldn't need so much defending.

That's just my take though.

[amsterdam]

you guys got your ass beat on electiopn day,quit fucking crying about it.

elect some real leaders to your party and shut up about it.at this rate you wont have any power for a LONG time.

[bhallg2k]

you guys got your ass beat on electiopn day,quit fucking crying about it.

elect some real leaders to your party and shut up about it.at this rate you wont have any power for a LONG time.

Hey, thanks for participating in the EDUCATION discussion. Is this what you do when you have no comeback?

"We won so suck it!"

Trust me, pal, we ALL LOST. In ten years, that will really become evident.

[amsterdam]

the education system sucks.thats it.

no,you lost.and will continue to do so for at least 12 more years.i would get used to it if i were you.

why would i need a comeback?it is a debate.

[bhallg2k]

Of course the education system sucks. People like you killed it.

And while debating, in order to be thought of as a reasonably intelligent person, it would do you well to come back with something other than "we won" when someone is shoving facts down your throat like I did.

Just a little advice.

[amsterdam]

your facts??i believe you mean your opinion.you are your party.cry babies.all you do is bitch,but,yet offer no solutions?

why dont you become a teacher?

[bhallg2k]

And of course Torog isn't replying. He posts his little O'Reilly clippings and heads off, confident that he is master of all he surveys while actually ignorant of the reality based on fact and not idealogy.

[amsterdam]

history is being rewritten by liberal idiots who think words like war and slavery should have no part in our childrens school books?these are the same people who think using red ink to grade papers hurts kids feelings.schools need to be WAY more strict,longer hours,harder tests etc.

[bhallg2k]

your facts??i believe you mean your opinion.you are your party.cry babies.all you do is bitch,but,yet offer no solutions?

why dont you become a teacher?

It's not an opinion that public school funds have been cut drastically. It's not an opinion that Republicans are the ones who cut the funding. It's also not an opinion that kids' learning is suffering because of that.

And if you care to read, I offered a solution.

[amsterdam]

i am offering a solution too,be a teacher and do something about it?

[bhallg2k]

I'd make a shitty teacher. No patience.

But I'll gladly do everything I can to keep those out of power who wouldn't support good public education.

[amsterdam]

sounds good,but my kids are going to a good private school.

[EverydayJunglist]

Wow,this politics board is dun-did fierce.This post should be answereed simply.The fact is there is no room for religion in public schools.Church and state=separate.I remember when the pope died,we had to have a moment of silence for him.WHy?We didn't have one for Dimebag when he died?If they want to teach us history,and science,and math...that is fine.Beacuse most of it is factual and backs itself up.But don't push your fuckin beliefs on me godammit!!!!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers......

[amsterdam]

[QUOTE=EverydayJunglist]Wow,this politics board is dun-did fierce.This post should be answereed simply.The fact is there is no room for religion in public schools.Church and state=separate.I remember when the pope died,we had to have a moment of silence for him.WHy?We didn't have one for Dimebag when he died?If they want to teach us history,and science,and math...that is fine.Beacuse most of it is factual and backs itself up.But don't push your fuckin beliefs on me godammit!!!!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers......[

actually there is NO specific constitutional provision of "seperation of church and state."

[EverydayJunglist]

And with the "cauldron and witch thing" mentioned by Torog. Well,did they go flat out and a say something about the skit being Pagan related.Or was the skit named "awesome pagan"...no. But the girl's play was called "awesome god". There is a place for "awesome god" and that is church,not school. Props to Bhallg2k,for your valid arguments,and persistence in debating.All of y'all got valid arguments,but i think bhall put you in your place.Peace

[EverydayJunglist]

actually there is NO specific constitutional provision of "seperation of church and state."
Well what am i thinking of then?.I do not know about politics as much as you guys,sorry.But surely i'am not making that up.There is catholics school and such for a reason.So what is the church and staete thing,amsterdam?

[amsterdam]

like i said,there is nothing in the constitution calling for seperation of church and state.nothing.

[bhallg2k]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Any way you slice it, that's separation of church and state.

[amsterdam]

that isnt what it says?

[bhallg2k]

That's exactly what the 1st Amendment says.

[EverydayJunglist]

Well enlighten us then amsterdam.....

[amsterdam]

moreover,the first amendment says congress shall make no law.that is a resrtiction on federal,not state,power.

[bhallg2k]

The 1st Amendment says nothing like that.

The 10th Amendment gives unenumerated powers to the states and the people. Is that what you mean?

[EverydayJunglist]

well whatever the fuckin constitution says,i know there is something about sparation of church and state somewhere

[amsterdam]

thats what the first amendment begins with?

"congress shall make no law respecting a certain religon,or prohibiting the free exercise therof,or abridging the freedom of speech,or of the press,or the right of the people to assemble,and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

how does it not say that>?

[EverydayJunglist]

i think i'm gonna stick with the psychotropics forum,less arguing there,lol

[bhallg2k]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Let's analyse this. Shall we?

"Congress (our legislature) shall make no law (rule) respecting (dealing with) an establishment of religion (an organized religious movement)..."

Our legislature shall make no rule dealing with an organized religious movement. Hands off policy. Laissez faire. Look, but don't touch. Government is not involved.

[amsterdam]

for the federal government,not the state.

[bhallg2k]

I don't think you understand Constitutional law.

The Constitution says explicitly in the 1st Amendment that that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." It also states in the 10th Amendment that "...powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

In other words, the 10th says that if the Constition fails to mention something that comes up later, it's up for states to decide. But since with the 1st, the Constitution washes the government's hands of religion, the states have no rights to those powers.

Feel me?

[EverydayJunglist]

I feel that.

[amsterdam]

i am not here debating this,more like asking.i was not sure and have been reading this paper on the constitution by danesh d'zouza.

[Torog]

Howdy bhall,

You lament :"God, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm just tired of writing about it. But I don't think any Republican should dare knock the conditions of public schools. Their deterioration, and that of our kids' educations, are entirely your fault. If you choke something long enough, which is what Reagan started, it's going to die. "

Yup..yer right,us conservatives are responsible for the current state of our education system,because we allowed liberal educators,to take over the schools and colleges..and now our schools and colleges are so infested with liberals,we may never get them out.

As for Reagan,are you referring to the 'choking' of communism ? Thank God for Reagan,he 'choked' communism to death and brought down the Berlin Wall. He restored pride and moral,in our military,which had been laid waste to,by Carter and the dim's..yup,thank God for Reagan :)

Have a good one ....

[easyg]

wtf is that values pic about? filth? what are you alluding to that is filth in that pic?

and as for

I think it's obvious,that liberal educators are trying to revive paganism

:rolleyes: :D

tinfoil hat alert!!!!!!

[amsterdam]

i would not go that far,but liberal thinking is screwing with our kids in schoool.

look at the aclu filing suit on school districts that allow dodgeball,or using red ink to grade papers.its scary.we are raising a pussy generation.

[bhallg2k]

Howdy bhall,
Yup..yer right,us conservatives are responsible for the current state of our education system,because we allowed liberal educators,to take over the schools and colleges..and now our schools and colleges are so infested with liberals,we may never get them out.

"...allowed liberal educators to take over the schools..."
"...our schools and colleges are so infested with liberals..."

Notice the language.

Let this be a lesson, boys and girls. This is what happens when you approach issues from an ideological standpoint rather than one based on history and fact. Not only do you end up totally wrong but you look like a damn fool along the way (that goes for liberals who do the same thing too).

Let's have this debate, Torog, when you have command of the facts rather than what you hear on the radio and TV.



As for Reagan,are you referring to the 'choking' of communism ? Thank God for Reagan,he 'choked' communism to death and brought down the Berlin Wall. He restored pride and moral,in our military,which had been laid waste to,by Carter and the dim's..yup,thank God for Reagan :)

Have a good one ....

I know that Reagan is the second coming of Christ for conservatives and Republicans, but come on. Get real. That's just a joke, based on conservative lore passed down like it was a bedtime story.

First off, if you want to give Reagan credit for the "choking of communism," allow me to direct your attention to China and North Korea. Remember them? Two communist countries, one the second largest in the world and the other a rogue state building nuclear weapons, are still standing.

Second, if you're going to give credit for the Soviet Union's fall to a man, rather than the universally accepted reason (it fell under its own weight; communism is an idea destined to fail because of human nature, which is why China is moving towards a more capitalistic society), then you need to give much more credit to Pope John Paul II, whose actions carried significantly more weight in Eastern Europe than Reagan could dream of. Reagan just liked to talk about it and look good, which is basically his entire presidency in a nutshell.

And honestly, why couldn't this debate remain about education? Why bring up communism at all? This is why things never get done.

I know it's damn hard for a conservative to make sense of education because historically, you people have sucked at it. But come at me with facts rather than rhetoric. Try to prove a valid point.

[Torog]

Howdy bhall,

You state: " Let this be a lesson, boys and girls. This is what happens when you approach issues from an ideological standpoint rather than one based on history and fact. Not only do you end up totally wrong but you look like a damn fool along the way (that goes for liberals who do the same thing too). "

So..does this mean that you think that there are no liberals in the education system ?

At least under conservatives,children graduated being able to read,write and do math..under liberals,that no longer matters..being politically-correct,is all that matters to them now.

Have a good one ...

[amsterdam]

being politically correct or not letting anyone get their feelings hurt.

[sensiskunk]

Howdy bhall,

You state: " Let this be a lesson, boys and girls. This is what happens when you approach issues from an ideological standpoint rather than one based on history and fact. Not only do you end up totally wrong but you look like a damn fool along the way (that goes for liberals who do the same thing too). "

So..does this mean that you think that there are no liberals in the education system ?

At least under conservatives,children graduated being able to read,write and do math..under liberals,that no longer matters..being politically-correct,is all that matters to them now.

Have a good one ...
Wow, thats really ironic, i scored top 5% in math in my state, and top 10% in english. Thats more than GW can say, his dumb ass had a C avg in college. I couldnt even get a C if i wanted to, but yet, im still the dumb one huh? You didnt even attempt to answer bhall's post, because you have no answer. You know nothing, and you just proved it by completely changing subjects and trying to attack liberals once again. If anything, republicans are the ones that only care about political correctness. Plus, im getting an academic scholarship, also more than you, and GW could say, but yet im still the dumb one? Republicans base their arguments on attacking liberals, mainly because their policies are shit, and everyone knows it, except obviously the republicans. Money and power is republicans main concern, but they cant seem to help the economy, or conclude the war in iraq, seems like their waiting for a liberal to come and fix it, like we always do. Then once we do fix it, theyll go on the attack once again. So, because of MY accomplishments academically, i can conclude that it is republicans that arent in the education system!

[Fengzi]

Bottom line, folks, is that both the liberals and concervatives are to blame. Each group is so fucking hell bent on saying they're right and the other is wrong that they go to extremes. The correct path is not to the far right or far left but down the middle.

Me personally, I'm an aethiest, but if a little girl wants to sing a song about god in a school talent show let her. How the hell does it hurt me? It's like the jackass out here in California who was suing to have the words "under god" removed from the pledge of allegience. Shit, it never bothered me while I was in school. I just didn't say those words. So what if everybody else did?

One the other hand, there's the concervatives who bitch and moan every Halloween when little kids dress up and have their school Halloween parties. "It's a holiday celebrating the devil...blah, blah, blah" Go fuck yourselves. I seriously doubt any of these kids are trying to conjure Satan. It's called fun you religious jackasses.

Come on everybody, why can't we do what is right. Just think what we could do if we put all the money that is pouring into the war in Iraq into our schools. And what if we raised the standards, failed kids who needed to fail , and made sure that every kid who gets a high school diploma actually deserved it. I know it will never happen but I can dream, can't I?

[bhallg2k]

So..does this mean that you think that there are no liberals in the education system ?

At least under conservatives,children graduated being able to read,write and do math..under liberals,that no longer matters..being politically-correct,is all that matters to them now.

Have a good one ...

Why do you always miss the point, man? I ask this sincerely. Are you really so stuck in your own ideology that you can't even recognize anything else?

Does it matter if there are liberals in the education system? Does it matter if there are conservatives? You're never going to have a fully one-sided education system. Ever. And I don't give a rip either way and neither should you, just so long as kids come out properly educated. Just as an aside, it might help attract more Republican teachers if you paid teachers a better salary.

The point is that Republicans and conservatives don't know how to run a system of education, no matter who is in it.

For whatever reason, conservatives seem to think that cutting off funding is the only way to make education better. The only proposals and laws regarding education coming from Republicans have been budget reductions. Hell, Reagan tried to eliminate the cabinet-level Department of Education and W hasn't funded his campaign promise of No Child Left Behind. You guys see failing test scores and failing schools and immediately move to reduce funds, saying, "We're wasting money." That's NOT how it works and has been proven by the fact that test scores fall more often under Republicans than under Democrats. That's a fact.

The schools that are failing are failing because they are underfunded and left to fall apart. The kids that are failing are failing because not enough resources are being spent on them; many inner city students don't even have their own textbooks. It has nothing to do with a teacher's liberal or conservative ideology.

Come on, you should know this. Any time something in the military isn't working right, you guys just throw money at it like it grows on trees. And nine out of ten times, it SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

I know that it can be said that liberals just want to spend and spend and spend. And that argument can be valid at times. But seriously, doesn't it make sense to put kids in schools with decent computers, the Internet, music classes, art classes, PE classes, science labs and textbooks for everyone? Depending on where you live, most kids don't have those things in their school. Some don't even have a real classroom. And so often when we talk about failing students and failing schools around the country, it's those that we are referring to.

We spend a lower percentage of GDP on education here in the U.S. than any other industrialized nation. Why do you wonder why our kids' test scores are always the lowest among those from industrialized nations?

(And Amsterdam, if you want to point your finger at liberals for political correctness in schools [axing dodgeball, red ink, etc], you'd do better to point your finger at idiot parents for starting these ridiculous initiatives)

[EverydayJunglist]

this thread is 3 pages of Bhall2gk tearin it up! Rock the fuck on

[amsterdam]

Why do you always miss the point, man? I ask this sincerely. Are you really so stuck in your own ideology that you can't even recognize anything else?

Does it matter if there are liberals in the education system? Does it matter if there are conservatives? You're never going to have a fully one-sided education system. Ever. And I don't give a rip either way and neither should you, just so long as kids come out properly educated. Just as an aside, it might help attract more Republican teachers if you paid teachers a better salary.

The point is that Republicans and conservatives don't know how to run a system of education, no matter who is in it.

For whatever reason, conservatives seem to think that cutting off funding is the only way to make education better. The only proposals and laws regarding education coming from Republicans have been budget reductions. Hell, Reagan tried to eliminate the cabinet-level Department of Education and W hasn't funded his campaign promise of No Child Left Behind. You guys see failing test scores and failing schools and immediately move to reduce funds, saying, "We're wasting money." That's NOT how it works and has been proven by the fact that test scores fall more often under Republicans than under Democrats. That's a fact.

The schools that are failing are failing because they are underfunded and left to fall apart. The kids that are failing are failing because not enough resources are being spent on them; many inner city students don't even have their own textbooks. It has nothing to do with a teacher's liberal or conservative ideology.

Come on, you should know this. Any time something in the military isn't working right, you guys just throw money at it like it grows on trees. And nine out of ten times, it SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

I know that it can be said that liberals just want to spend and spend and spend. And that argument can be valid at times. But seriously, doesn't it make sense to put kids in schools with decent computers, the Internet, music classes, art classes, PE classes, science labs and textbooks for everyone? Depending on where you live, most kids don't have those things in their school. Some don't even have a real classroom. And so often when we talk about failing students and failing schools around the country, it's those that we are referring to.

We spend a lower percentage of GDP on education here in the U.S. than any other industrialized nation. Why do you wonder why our kids' test scores are always the lowest among those from industrialized nations?

(And Amsterdam, if you want to point your finger at liberals for political correctness in schools [axing dodgeball, red ink, etc], you'd do better to point your finger at idiot parents for starting these ridiculous initiatives)


i suppose the democrats could lead a wonderful govt. run educationsystem.

no thanks.

[Funken Monken]

[QUOTE=amsterdam]i would not go that far,but liberal thinking is screwing with our kids in schoool.

QUOTE]


Can I add a provizo that that is relevant only in the US?

Over here many ideologies are inherent in education, as it whats makes for a balanced view, and we all want our kids to have a balanced and informed perspective on the world, dont we?

For an example, going back a few years now, when my old colleage had an open night, once of the history teachers set upa stand pretending he was a member of the Nazi party, and spent all night saying why we should go for the nazi manefesto. Not the genocide, anti-semetism, but the actual selling points that helped get the Nazis in. Devils advocate in a debate basically.
The college got complaints like you wouldnt beleive, as you'd expect, so said history teacher invited all the upset paretns back and layed it down - "we dont teach one perspective, we teach those that are relevant to the subject so your child can see all the sides and draw an informed conclusion. With the example you saw, your children would be able to give me a full critique by the end of term".
Parents were chuffed to bits.

[amsterdam]

i like the sound of that.i would like for my kids to be taught stuff and techniques like that.

[Fengzi]

i like the sound of that.i would like for my kids to be taught stuff and techniques like that.
Wow Amsterdam, we agree on something. You can't teach the truth while at the same time hiding it. Also, it's incredibly hypocritical to protest a group, government, etc, that is oppressive and restricts freedom by restricting the freedom to teach about it.

I do think that this is best kept at the college level. Younger, more impressionable kids, might not be able to understand what he was doing and just take what he was saying as the teachers word. "My teacher says Nazi's were good, I wanna be a Nazi Mommy" Not too cool.

[amsterdam]

im not a neo-con despite what some might say.

[Funken Monken]

Wow Amsterdam, we agree on something. You can't teach the truth while at the same time hiding it. Also, it's incredibly hypocritical to protest a group, government, etc, that is oppressive and restricts freedom by restricting the freedom to teach about it.

I do think that this is best kept at the college level. Younger, more impressionable kids, might not be able to understand what he was doing and just take what he was saying as the teachers word. "My teacher says Nazi's were good, I wanna be a Nazi Mommy" Not too cool.

Fair comment, but dont slip of out of context mate - it was a parents evenin - all college students were accompanied by parents.

No animals were harmed either

[sensiskunk]

i suppose the democrats could lead a wonderful govt. run educationsystem.

no thanks.
LOL, nice educated answer. Typical republican, u dont even address bhall's comment, instead u go on the attack. Nice grammar too, still better than ur hero GW. Id like to see a republican get in a real debate, and see how long they last, but unfortunately that is impossible.

[amsterdam]

thats because god made democrats smarter than the rest of the world.

[sensiskunk]

lmao, see what im saying, u cant even give a real response, wtf? I thought u knew, asians are the smartest ppl on earth, democrats are 2nd, lmao, jk! Amsterdam, u need to smoke more, or get some pussy bro, your on here 24/7 making lame posts. youve been on here only 3 months, and u have nearly 1700 posts, are you obsessed? Do you have nothing else to do? Instead of bashing liberals, because were better, you should go to a christian rally or some shit, where you really belong, no offense. Drugs (marijuana) and republicans dont mix, so why are you here in the first place? you are already contradicting what your party stands for, which is anti-drugs, and many other bs things. I would never go on a christian site and bash them 24/7, it just doesnt make sense. You must like pestering stoners, which is mainly 99% democrat, for those that are involved in politics, so wtf, your either with us, or against us, as your hero GW said before.