I was only following orders !

[psychocat]

After hearing the arguments put forward by the people accused of abusing Iraqi "prisoners" at Abu Ghraib prison I believe I may well have heard their excuses before.
Wasn't the defense of Nazi soldiers who carried out the hollocaust "I was only following orders" ?
They should be locked up for the shit they did and be subjected to what they put others through, IMO.
Any thoughts ??

[Button Basher]

With you all the way. I anticipated they were probably "just following orders" since the whole scenario came up. Kick all those responsible out of the army, back to their families in shame.

And the same for the Brit troops abusing Iraqi prisoners.

[amsterdam]

what torture??

[Button Basher]

Oh right, of course. The media would never air this in the US would they :p .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4553829.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3701941.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4539033.stm

Enjoy.

[amsterdam]

no i have seen all that 1000 times.i dont see any torture?

[amsterdam]

we should be doing alot more.

[Button Basher]

The great American ideology triumphs again.

[amsterdam]

not at all,but that wasnt "torture"

[amsterdam]

what we do now is nothing.the last time we were attacked at home we dropped two atomic weapons and wiped out two cities.

torture my ass,wheres your balls?

[XTC]

though, I may not agree with their actions against the prisioners, I dont think in imprisioning are men and women of the Armed Forces. Their risking their ass out there and then you imprison them for fighting for our country. All is fair in love and war.

[amsterdam]

agreed.

[psychocat]

though, I may not agree with their actions against the prisioners, I dont think in imprisioning are men and women of the Armed Forces. Their risking their ass out there and then you imprison them for fighting for our country. All is fair in love and war.

So the Geneva Convention only applies to allied forces and we can only be outraged by abuse to people on our side, mmmmmm .
Smacks of hypocrisy.
I wouldn't call guarding prisoners "fighting" and they should be accountable for their actions.

Amsterdam is so narrow minded , it beggars belief that you think it is ok to treat any person in the way the prisoners were treated .

[amsterdam]

naked pyramids god forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!1

the geneva convention dosent apply to those people obviously.

[makor01]

I dont think anything that went on in that prison was right....but i do however think that war should NOT be fucking put on national TV. War is ugly...plain and fucking simple...HEY psychocat take a look at some of the sites hosting what they do to our american prisioners. 2 Wrongs do not make a right, but when it comes to war...ignorance is bliss. We should NOT be watching this on national TV AT ALL!!!!

[amsterdam]

the media causes alot of people to die.

[Button Basher]

War is political, so what's wrong with political correctness in war?

I'm finding it hard to understand your one sentence posts amsterdam. I thought you were implying the US marines should have been torturing the prisoners (I wouldn't call it torture, just abuse, which is just as well 'cause noone mentioned torture before you did).

[amsterdam]

most of these people were captured on the battlefield fighting without a uniform or leader.

abuse.sure there is gonna be abuse,so what??

[easyg]

This message is hidden because amsterdam is on your ignore list.

ahhhh, that's better

first time ever I have put someone on ignore on any of the boards I go to....when I come here I want to relax, not be wound up by some childish idiot who has no sense of decency/reality......I have my fair share of ding-dongs on other boards!

and relax...... :D

[amsterdam]

if i didnt ruffle your feathers i didnt do my job.

love the name calling though,nice job.

you should learn to be more tolerant of other peoples opinions.

and relax....

[amsterdam]

liberals dont get mad when people lie,they get mad when someone tells the truth.

[Button Basher]

As you said in the religion thread:

What is truth?

[amsterdam]

that what was happening the so called "abuse" was nothing.there arent these horrific things going on at abu ghraib or gitmo.

the terrorists better hope they are captured by us instead of the iraqis.thewn everyone is gonna cry that we shouldnt have left iraq.

[Button Basher]

The idea is we are the civilised freedom fighters that believe in peace and democracy.

A bunch of redneck fucks taking photos of eachother treating Iraqis (human beings, whether they like it or not) like shit obviously isn't gonna go down well with those with moral values (ie. the rest of us).

'It could be worse' isn't really an excuse. When you publicise a moral and just war, you better stick to your promise. If we're the "good guys", we should act the part.

[pisshead]

but then all these people couldn't practice double think...where it's okay if we do what the terrorists do, as long as we're the 'good' guys.

[stoner spirit]

There really isn't any streight forward rules of war, or in war. Just because the Jeneva Convention is in place, do you think some of the soldiers are going to obay by that? There's allways going to be some torture during war times. War has been here sense the dawn of mankind, then torture probably came later. That's just my openion though. If anybody has something to say about it, then do so.

[GHoSToKeR]

I don't understand how any human being can treat any other human being in that manner. And it's not just these guys.. I don't get how anybody can intentionally harm another person, that includes murder, torture, rape, war, fighting, etc.... This kind of stuff blows my buzz. :(

[pisshead]

that's because yer one-a 'dem freedom hatin' liberal terrorist sympathizer pinko commie traitor bastards.

learn to love the new freedom. worship the new freedom from your freedom rest and relocation concentration clown camp...coming to a town near you.

[stoner spirit]

I don't understand how any human being can treat any other human being in that manner. And it's not just these guys.. I don't get how anybody can intentionally harm another person, that includes murder, torture, rape, war, fighting, etc.... This kind of stuff blows my buzz. :(
I hear you on that one, and that's understandable Ghost.

[Stedric]

You've been affected by the subtle racist mentality that presents itself in North America (and NOT just the USA, by any stretch). When it happens to foreigners, we say "All is fair in love and war". When they abduct our reporters and slit their throats, its an outrage.

War is horrible in every way, so many atrocities go on that it is impossible to call things "right" or "wrong". Right and wrong are just words.

But that still doesn't make it right to shove a broomstick up a prisoner's ass. I'm sorry, but they should be treated as equals, fighting for us or not. That means jail time.

[XTC]

If you think the treatment of the prisoners is wrong what do you think they did to Saddam or the Al-Quedia terrorists. The CIA had those people, and the CIA pretty much does not answer to anyone. Al-Quedia and Saddam's hunch men don't listen to any "rules" for war. It's a war. I mean I am against this war, but it happenedregardless what I thin, and there shouldnt be any consequences for the people who are actually battling in this war for America.

[Button Basher]

there shouldnt be any consequences for the people who are actually battling in this war for America.

Yes, those that are bravely battling. Not cowardly beating down prisoners when they are weak and powerless. Does it take more to be a soldier in the battlefield or in prison security?

[amsterdam]

and the people responsible are in jail or going to jail(sadly)

[psychocat]

There really isn't any streight forward rules of war, or in war. Just because the Jeneva Convention is in place, do you think some of the soldiers are going to obay by that? There's allways going to be some torture during war times. War has been here sense the dawn of mankind, then torture probably came later. That's just my openion though. If anybody has something to say about it, then do so.

Rape and murder have been with us for centuries , does that mean we have to accept those things too ???
A so called civilised society that advocates cruelty and torture isn't that civilised now is it?

[amsterdam]

it wasnt cruel and it sure wasnt torture.

[easyg]

I couldn't help myself.....wasn't cruel!!!

begorrah....yr mommy and pappy sure brought you up to be a nice little boy didn't they :mad:

did they keep you in a cage in the coal house?

[pisshead]

yeah...i read the army's own 47 page report that was publicly released, and little reported...probably a year ago, maybe less...

they describe some pretty gruesome stuff...stuff you could only call torture.

but i guess saddam was only blowing off a little steam when he tortured too. it's all good.

[stoner spirit]

We don't have to except rape and murder, and even in a civilized society its gonna happen. Its not gonna go away any time soon.

[amsterdam]

i read the same stuff,nothing special.shit happens.

god forbid some people get their little feelings hurt.

[pisshead]

you're no more sick in the head than saddam if you read the army's 47 page report and agree with torture.

but it's okay...every major freedom spreading country or empire in history has done the same thing.

post a link to the report that you read.

[Psycho4Bud]

yeah...i read the army's own 47 page report that was publicly released, and little reported...probably a year ago, maybe less...

they describe some pretty gruesome stuff...stuff you could only call torture.

but i guess saddam was only blowing off a little steam when he tortured too. it's all good.

Could you show what "gruesome stuff" that the U.S. troops did? I've read and heard of such things as bambo shoots under the nails, cutting off of limbs, sleep deprovation, being made to eat and drink your own waste in order to survive...etc.

The U.S. and the coallition forces, due to smart technology, made one of the most "humane" invasion attacks in history but when a smart bomb goes off track and civilian lives are lost we are called baby killers. Why? As I recall, during WW2 the Nazi's were ruthless in the attacks on the Soviet Union and the Soviets returned that with just as much or more ruthlessness onto the Germans. Burning of entire towns and crops, raping of women and children, lining up all men for execution as to exterminate any thoughts of resistance. And how do the governments of the Middle East deal with such people that we "tortured". Beheadings, cutting off of limbs, possible retaliation on their families. Did we really step that far out of bounds considering the "form of justice" that the region practices. My God, we even honored the sanctity of the Mosques knowing full well that fighters and weapons were being stored in them! Alot of countries during a time of war would have made the Mosque into a pile of rubble with a "to bad so sad" attitude about it.

As I remember, Sadamm didn't hold too much faith in the so called Geneva Convention act when he invaded Kuwait. Looting hospitals of goods, leaving helpless babies to die...etc....

Please tell me where the U.S. drastically crossed lines in regards to Iraq. I've been reading all this bullshit as how the war was about our greed for oil. Seems funny that the last oil contract signed for new fields in the Kurdish sector was to a Canadian firm. If crooked politicians from other countries would have stood by the Food for Oil contracts as intended instead of lining their pockets with kickbacks maybe we wouldn't have had to take matters into our hands. Oh yah, the United Nations should have the say....so says Kerry and Klan. Now we find the nations that were against the war were dirty with kickbacks and higher ups in the U.N. aren't much better. Due to their "Sadamm backing" how many thousands of Shiites and Kurds lost their lives? How many acts of torture was Sadamm able to achieve due to the help of these pissant countries? How many school girls was Sadamms boys able to rape due to this?

Now honestly sit down and look at past war history and the coruption of the U.N. system as it played out and tell me what horrible acts of torture the U.S. committed.

P.S. If you respond, Please, don't be from France....you government done enough!!!

[amsterdam]

there were a bunch.

why is it hard to believe that none of it bothered me?

those people dont fight in a uniform or for any commander.thats their fault.let the games begin

[amsterdam]

when we start dipping people in acid,let me know.

[pisshead]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

i'm not talking about saddam. as if mentioning what saddam did means the army is incapable of doing anything wrong. that's some faulty logic there.

i can't stand the UN. if bush were a true conservative, he wouldn't be picking ambassadors and the fake left wouldn't be arguing with the fake right, he'd be compelling congress to present legislation to get rid of it, and stop all funding to it, like ron paul has, a true conservative.

bush loves the UN as much as any liberal does. he's certainly doing nothing to fight it or stop it, as he signed back onto UNESCO, teaching our kids to be good global citizens while handing over control of some national parks to the UN as well.

the UN has done horrible things, the US has done horrible things, saddam has done horrible things, dictators do horrible things.

i like to look at what's happening in my own country before i start pointing fingers at others.

while i'm at it, here's a massive archive of torture stuff.

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/newer_photos.htm

amsterdam will form his opinion in minutes, i suggest others take time to go through the dozens and dozens and dozens of links.


8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26) :

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

9. (U) I have carefully considered the statements provided by the following detainees, which under the circumstances I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses:

[makor01]

none of you motherfuckers can even talk about this shit...im tired of all of your bullshit excuses and fuckin consp theories!!! get off your fat asses and do something about it if you have such problems with it. but im sure pisshead and all his cronies are fucking pussies and would never stick their neck out by actually going to war for your country. in general fuck all of you for this completely uselsess argement you dont know what youre talking about, ask someone who was actually fucking there and you might change your fucking perspective. until then i lable all of you motherfuckers fucking dickless pussies.

[amsterdam]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

i'm not talking about saddam. as if mentioning what saddam did means the army is incapable of doing anything wrong. that's some faulty logic there.

i can't stand the UN. if bush were a true conservative, he wouldn't be picking ambassadors and the fake left wouldn't be arguing with the fake right, he'd be compelling congress to present legislation to get rid of it, and stop all funding to it, like ron paul has, a true conservative.

bush loves the UN as much as any liberal does. he's certainly doing nothing to fight it or stop it, as he signed back onto UNESCO, teaching our kids to be good global citizens while handing over control of some national parks to the UN as well.

the UN has done horrible things, the US has done horrible things, saddam has done horrible things, dictators do horrible things.

i like to look at what's happening in my own country before i start pointing fingers at others.

while i'm at it, here's a massive archive of torture stuff.

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/newer_photos.htm

amsterdam will form his opinion in minutes, i suggest others take time to go through the dozens and dozens and dozens of links.


8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26) :

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

9. (U) I have carefully considered the statements provided by the following detainees, which under the circumstances I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses:


this is all OLD NEWS and the only part of any of that that would raise an eyebrow sodomizing .notice how it says "sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and PERHAPS a broom stick"clue #1 that its a bullshit story.

[amsterdam]

other than that how is any of that torture??

pouring cold water on a detainee???? ooooooooooooooooo!thats rough!

USING DOGS TO FRIGHTEN DETAINEES!! we cant scare them now!!fuck that pussy shit.

maybe we should start fighting with bb guns too??

[pisshead]

wow, all you've got are words...i don't take much credence in your words.

and to makor01...what the hell am i supposed to do? what does one person to do stop an empire, when everyone else watches american idol and football? you think i'm alone, you're mistaken. i'm involved locally to stop what's happening to my city, and i'm just one of thousands in this city...someone who actually does give a shit what the local government and feds are doing.

open your god damn eyes. you act like it's a big conspiracy that governments often times in history become corrupt, and use propaganda to convince mass groups of people to accept whatever direction they take you in.

you're the one whose sitting on your ass doing nothing, thinking nothing bad will ever happen to me, i can just sit on my ass and let whoever do whatever to me.

so fuck you.

[makor01]

motherfucker i hope one day your fat ass gets drafted and you can see how the other half lives... youre a fucking coward plain and simple.

[pisshead]

the other half already lives here, oh wise one. i don't care what's happening in iraq. it's not up to me to save other people from despotism, as the same thing happens here. if they want to not rise up and get rid of saddam, it's not up to me to do it either.

you're NOT the worlds' authority. learn how your own fucking country was founded.

take off your rose fucking glasses.

[amsterdam]

but you sure do web-sites like info-wars,prison planet,thememory hole.web-sites put together by 35 year olds who live in their parents basement.

[pisshead]

i saw msnbc...and a dozen other mainstream worldwide publications...

you're saying infowars.com controls msnbc.com and every other news outlet in the world, including congress' own publications and congressional record?

what a conspiracy.

[makor01]

my country was founded by people like me who make a choice to fucking do something rather than sit here and fucking make up consp theories. I didnt take a fucking round in my gut to make inconsiderate fucking cowards like you safe from terror, i did it cause it weas my fucking job...just like everyother motherfuckter that is overthere right now that you are totally undermining. When i hear asshats like you talking all your SPEW it literrally makes me sick that were dying over there for FUCKs like you.

[pisshead]

i support the troops more than you ever will.

i think they should come home. you want them to stay for an empire, because you actually believe we're spreading freedom.

have you read the declaration of independence? sounds like a fucking conspiracy theory to me.

unless you actually believe all the anti-british propaganda, and thought the founders weren't terrorists, by the definition in the patriot act, section 802, read it.

[makor01]

MORE THAN I EVER WILL.....MAN YOU ARE SOO WRONG THERE. THEYRE MY BROTHERS NOT YOURS YOU FUCKING WASTE OF AIR!!!!

[pisshead]

still doesn't prove me wrong.

i won't argue that saddam is bad.

why is it your fucking job to police the world and do it for them?

sounds very liberal to me.

[pisshead]

where in the happy little land of our world and our constitutional republic does it give anyone authority to fight the rest of the worlds' battles?

it's just plain naive to think that kind of power won't lead to corruption. when has that not happened in the world? you're saying all of history is a giant conspiracy theory, because that's what history is full of.

this would be the first time in thousands of years of history it didn't happen.

[makor01]

sounds liberal huh, ok man back to this round robin we call a "politics" board

in the end youre still nothing...hang on while i go dust off my purple heart and bronze star...and remember youre still a total nobody and will never be anything, grow some balls, then you can talk to me on the same level.

[Stedric]

If I thought I was needed in a war instead of killing myself for a stupid American propoganda victory, then maybe I would sign up.

Those who are overseas fighting for us right now have nothing by my respect. That does NOT mean I have to support this slaughter, and it certainly doesn't mean that the treatment of these prisoners was ok. Yeah ok it was a war blah blah blah Saddam didn't respect the rules either. So what?! Does that mean that the cowards who abused their power to prey on the helpless shouldn't be punished? Lets see what you'd say if it was your girlfriend/boyfriend with the broom handle shoved up their ass.

I respect the soldiers, but I will never, EVER have any respect for the ugly misunderstood thing we call war. And if that makes me a coward? Deal with it, there isn't a thing you can do about it.

This wasn't meant as a personal attack on anyone or their opinions.

[pisshead]

exactly. that's all i'm saying.

i don't want any of them to be harmed, just like i don't want innocent civilians on the other side to be harmed, for pointless empire building, as America is reduced to a third world country in historical fashion.

people can claim all day long what they want to about me, or others, personally. living in parents' basements, tin foil hats...it's just more defense mechanisms to think nothing is actually wrong, or can go wrong in one's own country.

i bet that's what people in iraq thought. how on earth could we have let saddam do what he did?

it makes them conspiracy theorists to question it maybe?

and we cheer it on like a bunch of good little romans, where people know more about american idol and football, and kids can barely spell after going through more socialized education.

history repeats. people don't want to believe it and can't comprehend it.

[makor01]

yeah it repeats, and youll still not be remembered when youre dead and gone.



how many times you gonna edit that post man.?

[pisshead]

so what? will you be remembered?

are you so special? you're here with me on these boards, so probably not.

personal attacks don't prove anything.

[makor01]

yeah i know i will.

at least i tried to make a difference, sadly the actions in afghanistan did get overlooked, but i know for a fact that i killed quite a few of those al-quida fucks, and i stood up for something that you apparently cant understand.

[pisshead]

yeah, you must be real fucking special then.

if i was as special as you, i wouldn't be here.

[makor01]

yeah maybe you should go put a gun in your mouth, the world would probably be better off.

[pisshead]

wow, you must be afraid of my impact on the world...

you'd make a good local sheriff. going around blowing everyones' head off you disagreed with, thinking about all the freedom in the world.

[makor01]

i only shot at those who shot at me first. everytime.

[Stedric]

I'm sorry...you must be saying that only people who fight in wars are remembered in history.

I guess you must be right, I can't really think of anyone(GHANDI-JESUS-BUDDHA-MARTINLUTHERKING-NELSONMANDELA-ALMOSTEVERYFUCKINGPOLITICIANINTHEHISTORYOFTHEWORLD )that people remember who didn't fight in a war.

[makor01]

thats not what i said at all, i was compairing me to pisshead, not anything more.

[bum]

if going to fight a war with blinders on makes you remembered when you die, then i'll be chillin' here. i tend to think that those who question authority (because we all know power corrupts) will go down in history. like martin luther king... like the original founders of the US... etc. tyranny will always be around... someone's gotta stand up and let the soldiers know who and what they're fighting for when they're too blind enough to see it.

[makor01]

...someone's gotta stand up and let the soldiers know who and what they're fighting for when they're too blind enough to see it.

I knew exactly what i was fighting for when i got on that plane and headed to where i was going...no question in my mind...i did question the politics of it all for awhile, but like i said i previous posts, that shit all went out the window when the lead started flying.

And like i even said in the start of this post, i do not support what happened in that prison...not at all...but i do think that war is way too TV friendly anymore.

[pisshead]

i think me and makor01 are in the same position.

he's fighting for freedom abroad, while being chastized for it.

i do what i can locally to fight for freedom, which is what you have to do, right? freedom isn't free we're told. the same thing goes for here in America, doesn't it? can i sit by and just expect it to be there? i'm doing it nonviolently though, while being chastized for it.

[Psycho4Bud]

ask someone who was actually fucking there and you might change your fucking perspective. until then i lable all of you motherfuckers fucking dickless pussies.

Understood...and if you were there my next hit's for you!

[makor01]

and even before my word is challenged anymore about why i am on these boards. i was doing searches one night on addictions to pain killers and i found this site. i am addicted to pain killers at the moment because of what has happened to me.

as i explored this site more i did like some of the other forums they had here, thats why im here.

i was there psy....1 year 2 mo.

[Psycho4Bud]

makor01: Much respect to you! Don't just shit yourself, there are many Kurds and Shiites in Iraq that feel the same. Likewise, neighboring countries that feared the future of an Iraq with Sadamm without sanctions. I wish you all the best!!!

pisshead:"pointless empire building"? Please point out how we are building our empire. As I recall, "empire building" in history was when a country invaded another, set up its own council with no elections at all for the people, and also used the people of these lands as cheap labor to rape the riches from their country. You know, like the Spanish in South America, Britin in the Middle East...India...etc., the French, Soviet Union.....What extra lands are now classified a state or territory of the U.S. As usual for a U.S. war we bomb, invade, take some control with council from that country, rebuild, then leave. Just wait, if it falls in line with history, we'll be bitching in 20 years of how much better Iraq is economically compared to us! I.E. Japan!

If we were this "empire builder", we would have states all over Europe, North Africa, South America, the Middle East, and Asia! We have got to be labled in history as the stupidest empire builders of all time with that record! :D

[GHoSToKeR]

Idf anything you're the smartest empire builders of all time, because you don't even have to invade a country to control it..


as for this topic. I dont see how anybody can argue that the abuse that has been reported is justifiable. I don't see how anyone can say that it is necessary. I dont see how anyone can say war is necessary or justifiable. Like that dude said, he might have doubted the politic reasons behind the war, but that stopped when the lead went flying. Now he's even proud that he killed a load of people. Him and his buddies probably placed bets to see who could kill the most each day. Blind allegiance like that scares the shit out of me.

[Psycho4Bud]

Do you mean like how China, Iran, N. Korea and others are conforming to our will? :confused:

[makor01]

dude we didnt place bets like that at all, that was a pointless comment. kill or be killed in most cases. i hope you never have to experience that.

but it did feel good sometimes :eek:

[GHoSToKeR]

I mean countries that rely on the International Monetary Fund for financial aid.. The US, being the wealthiest country, has the most influence over the IMF, and often uses it to coax countries (such as Argentina) in to conforming by threatening them with cutting their financial aid, etc.. I mean countries where the US has pressured the governments in to becoming tougher on drugs traffickers, dealers, even users.. I mean countries where the US has pressured the government in to allowing the US to spray chemicals over land suspected to be growing cocaine.. These countries have no choice but to do whatever the US says.

Makor: Okay, youre right, that was a pointless comment - I dont know anything about you so I shouldnt have said that. However, I do know that kind of stuff happens; it's not just entirely made up. And I hope I never have to experience that, either.. when put in that position I would find killing somebody equally as undesirable - if not more so - as being killed...

[Psycho4Bud]

I mean countries that rely on the International Monetary Fund for financial aid.. The US, being the wealthiest country, has the most influence over the IMF, and often uses it to coax countries (such as Argentina) in to conforming by threatening them with cutting their financial aid, etc.. I mean countries where the US has pressured the governments in to becoming tougher on drugs traffickers, dealers, even users.. I mean countries where the US has pressured the government in to allowing the US to spray chemicals over land suspected to be growing cocaine.. These countries have no choice but to do whatever the US says.

How does making stipulations on financial aid relate to empire building? If I tell my kid he has to be home at a decent time, no toking or drinking while driving my car, and by the way....grass needs mowing on saturday or no allowance! Does this constitute me as being an evil empire builder based on the fact if he doesn't follow my philosophy he gets no cash? I don't think so...he might, but I don't! lol

Don't get me wrong! I don't support Nixens' war on drugs and I don't support the spending of 16 billion a year for men in black hoods to make busts! Do you really believe that the leaders of the countries you mentioned want drug lords ruling their countries from the sidelines..HELL NO. Ask the good ol' U.S. to bring down the lords so they can have military, and financial control in the countries that they are suppose to be ruling over.
Dude, look at Canada. Took in S. Vietnam A.W.O.L.'s....open seed sites...lax laws regarding marijuana arrests. Is Canada such a military might or did they tell the U.S. to keep the cash they have to offer and they'll keep legistating however they want? Columbia and many other S. American countries could, at any time, tell the U.S. to keep their aid and actually legalize their profitable drugs for export and the U.S. couldn't, and wouldn't do shit! But thats where the problem actually lies. Fat cats in other countries don't want all that illegal money to become legal and likewise making that "Drug Lord" a highly regarded member of the community that they may have to rub shoulders with! Face it, it's not the U.S. DEMANDING to these foriegn leaders...it's their own choice.
Same logic goes for the U.S. Do you really believe that the likes of Kerry and Kennedy want to see the black man, mexican, and hippy on the floor of the senate. Kennedy, of all people, knows that legalization in the U.S. means that, like HIS forefathers, so called criminal elements now have power and influence. When the good ol' boys (Kerry/Kennedy) meet for a splash of wine they don't want to have to deal with us firing up a blunt in the same room not to mention exposing their loved ones people of our caliber! We're not "building empires", the good ol' boys just don't want their lil' empire disturbed.

[Stedric]

I don't see your point. Politics is almost always choosing the lesser of two evils.

[amsterdam]

dude we didnt place bets like that at all, that was a pointless comment. kill or be killed in most cases. i hope you never have to experience that.

but it did feel good sometimes :eek:


a purple heart??wow!!

thank you for your service and good aim. :D