A few things on Buddhism I could use some clarification on...

[mrdevious]

I've read about buddhism a lot in the past year, but I'm still not totally clear of their views on the after life and devine (I do know they don't have a god).

anywhoo, the way things work is that ignorance and craving are the cause of suffering, which is the cause of continuous rebirth. When one reaches enlightenment, you're freed of suffering, ignorance, craving, and apparently have the "final extinction" at which point the cycle of rebirth is stopped.

Now my first question is, why would we want this? I mean life is full of suffering, but I'd preferre it to disappearing from existence. Or am I wrong about disapppearing from existence, do we pull some Obi-Wan-Kenobi going into the force thing?

Also, is there any explanation as to what force is involved in causing reincarnation? or is it just assumption from buddha's Hindu background?

one more thing, the whole detachment issue. As a buddhist, would I be expected to just eliminate most craving and be detached from negative influence, or does that go with everything and I can't even listen to my heavy metal and have a good adrenaline rush and headbanging once in a while? I know buddhism doesn't have strict doctrine, I'm just looking for clarification on what "detachment" means, and if it's a universal definition.

The top 2 are the ones I was wondering about most though.

[djaio]

Now my first question is, why would we want this? I mean life is full of suffering, but I'd preferre it to disappearing from existence. Or am I wrong about disapppearing from existence, do we pull some Obi-Wan-Kenobi going into the force thing?

something like that. you only "unexist" on a physical level. if youve played ff7, think of it as going into the lifestream.

but i don't believe in ends there. life goes in cycles. day to night to day, seasons change, it never stops. even if we "go into the force" as you said, i think there's a time when we decide to go back to the physical world. maybe for no other reason than boredom. after all, endless bliss forever and ever and ever would get pretty old.


Also, is there any explanation as to what force is involved in causing reincarnation? or is it just assumption from buddha's Hindu background?

ive never thought about this. but the more i think about it, the more im thinking that some things buddhism say are metaphorical. or, we just dont understand the language since its so colloquial. we "die and are reborn", that is, we change, many many times in our life. death is merely change, and change is death. maybe whenever buddhist scriptures mention reincarnation, that's what they mean. the ever-changing flow of life. hell, one could say we die every night and are reborn the next morning. i dont know, just my thoughts...

as for what force propels reincarnation... i guess its just ourselves. no one can make you change but yourself.


one more thing, the whole detachment issue. As a buddhist, would I be expected to just eliminate most craving and be detached from negative influence, or does that go with everything and I can't even listen to my heavy metal and have a good adrenaline rush and headbanging once in a while? I know buddhism doesn't have strict doctrine, I'm just looking for clarification on what "detachment" means, and if it's a universal definition.

i dont think you'd be expected to just snap your fingers and boom, your attachments are gone. thats just forcing it. instead you'd be required to abstain from something until you realized you never needed it in the first place.

its difficult to explain, but... for example, some developed buddhists abstain from food. food is the energy of the earth. so it is believed that eating is sort of like expressing our desire to be one with the earth. our constant eating is an attachment to that belief. buddhist x realizes this and decides to work himself away from food, to detach from it, so he can tap directly into the energies of the earth.

that was probably a shitty example, but oh well. i might be on dxm later tonight so ill probably be able to help you more then

[mrdevious]

heh, unfortunately I haven't played Final fantasy. I don't know if you'd come back out of boredome however, cause it's not eternal bliss in the christian sense like heaven, more reaching a higher state of being. I'm pretty sure they mean reincarnation in the traditional sense though. on the other hand, I very much agree with you on your philosophy of change.

with the detachment though, I understand how you could get to a point of not needing things anymore, but most buddhists dont' actually go all the way to the point of enlightenment. I'm considering being a buddhist, but not so extreme as to be enlightened, more just as a guide to a better and purer life.


btw, how exactly would these guys you talk about go without food? :confused:

[Lulu]

I know very little about Buddhism but in Celtic traditions fasting or prayer fasting is a type of vision quest. Normally for a period of 3 days and 3 nights you would abstain from food and isolate yourself. The old druidic view of this act is that the power of fasting affects the shamanic reality of things, the soul energy of a person begins to influence the shape of the world. By ignoring the body, you raise your consiousness and see things that ordinarily you would have missed.

[amsterdam]

can someone who knows for sure please tell me if buddhism is a religon or a philosophy?i know there has been some controversy over this.

[mrdevious]

can someone who knows for sure please tell me if buddhism is a religon or a philosophy?i know there has been some controversy over this.


Not even buddha "knows for sure", because it's neither or either, whatever you decide to make it in your life. I personally consider it a religion because it deals with the highest states of reality and events after death. some may only follow it as a moral code of conduct (philosophy), while others may wish to follow it to the piont of spiritual enlightenment and perfection to reach a high state of being, including after death (more religion-like). When Sidhartha (the buddha) set out the path of buddhism, he was very adament that it is not a scripture to be followed down the the word under punishment of such-and-such, it's a guide to life which one can follow as far as they wish. he said something around the lines of;

"believe nothing because it agree's with your scriptures, because the majority believe in it, because someone tells you, even from the buddha, unless it makes sense with your own morality and logic"

[mrdevious]

Oh, just a little something I thought I'd ad:

I've realized something that is surprisingly good for you, regardless of being a buddhist, is following buddha's ideal of releasing yourself from hatred of everybody. I've had my enemies and people who have made my life hell, but I've found much greater solace (I think that's the word) in not holding anger towards them, but looking analytically at what makes them that way.

[amsterdam]

thank you.

[mellow mood]

it is considered as one of the 5 principal religions of the world, but i look it more like a philosophy. detachement is just reaching the nirvana. the pure happiness. but again buddhists dont even respect what buddha wanted. they pray him but he didnt wanted anything of this sort. i guess you can consider you as a buddhist if you respect living creatures, you beleive mainly in their books and u live in simplicty

peace

[U4EUH]

If you take the definition of religion as:
re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

And therefore acknowledge there is no supernatural power nor 'institutionalized system' nor worship required in Buddhism, it is a philosophy.

However, if you take the definition of 'religion' as:
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The argument that it is a religion can then be made as it is based upon the teachings of one Siddhartha Gautama among others. Though he told all who listened to question anything, even if he said it, and not to follow unless in complete accordance with ones own logical thinking. Thus the cause or principle may be pursued zealously but is differentiated by the individual and not set in stone or dictated by any work of literature.
For this reason I have concluded it to be a philosophy, by anothers reasoning it could be called a religion; whatever.

[mrdevious]

um... guys, as much as I love a good conversation, we've discussed to death weather or not it's a religion or philosophy. lets stay on topic please.

[naluman]

yes humans and suffering,,,,we learn to accept both, we welcome suffering, because suffering and happiness need each other, as far as a god, the universe, earth is god....this is good enlightment for you....I have had my share in the eastern world.......enclosed is some photograghs i shot of tibet and japan ......monks and temples.......
the guy with the straw hat is on a mission of enlightment...he blessed me.....in this
shot....of course i asked him if it was ok for a photo...he said for food i will....and i bought him some rice cakes......

[Lulu]

Great pics as always :)

[naluman]

ty..

[mellow mood]

yea pretty nice pics damn your so lucky man!

[major crisis]

we come back over and over again and the goal is to be happy.
just this, simple.

I could tell you much much more but you'd think I'm crazy and you wouldn't take me seriously so it's better we wait for the book.


take care

[WalkaWalka]

The buddhist 3 states of being
A dog knows to many pains and can never reach true happiness
God lives in excess joy and can never obtain true wisdom
Man knows both sorrow and joy and may know Nirvana

[mrdevious]

we come back over and over again and the goal is to be happy.
just this, simple.



but it's not just that. according to buddha, we are continuously reborn due to suffering and ignorance (of society, ones own existence, all that) and by reaching enlightenment, one can end the cycle of rebirth by freeing yourself of ignorance, suffering, unhappiness, and reach perfect wisdom and peace. of course it's said the true meaning of enlightened though cannot be described, you can only reach it and experience it.

which brings up the questions again, if you reach enlightenment and end the cycle of rebirth, what happens? wiped from existence?

[major crisis]

it never stops. that idea that one day it stops is not real, I think.
because in each existance you create new karma, or you still have some left from some other life. I don't think we always deal with every aspects of our karma in just one life, it could be very painful and emotionally distressful, more than what the soul is supposed to take at that moment.

the force is to keep reborning, non stop.
jeeez! you have no idea the different combinations there can be if you consider factors like family background, education, feeding, health, school, relationships, love, etc.

[major crisis]

I've always believed the theory of good death and bad death, almost as if there is a traumatic post-death state in which the soul is confined. the experience of liberation from the body must be also part of Karma itself. how interesting! maybe it's all about dying at ease with our consciousness.

[mrdevious]

*sigh*

The whole basis of enlightenment in buddhism is freeing yourself from the wheel of karma. I've researched it thoroughly.

[SpiritualExcess]

yah, technically when it comes to enlightenment there is no good or bad karma (action). Any karma will weigh you down to the cycle of death and rebirth.

[major crisis]

*sigh*

The whole basis of enlightenment in buddhism is freeing yourself from the wheel of karma. I've researched it thoroughly.


I know *sigh*

But what I was saying is that Nirvana is not a place, rather a state of mind/spirit. and it's also finite, it doesn't last forever. It's a moment of complete happyness after you die/end a set of lives that complete a cycle.
then a new cycle begins. Nirvana is not static, that's what I meant.

didn't you ask about what happens when a Soul reaches enlightenment?
you were a bit confused about what would happen then, you even said something that I find very curious and beautiful; you said: going into the force.

:)

[major crisis]

yah, technically when it comes to enlightenment there is no good or bad karma (action). Any karma will weigh you down to the cycle of death and rebirth.


there is heavier Karma than others, it depends on what one has to teach/suffer/learn and this is directly related to what one has done, said, lived like.

what I was meditating about is the feeling of good death or bad death, this in the sense that not everybody dies the same way - feeling the same way, feeling the same "death flash" I mean; the way Death comes to the individual is directly related to his/her Karma, the sensation when dying, I meant.

:)