Damping?

[Token LaRoche]

I kinda started this in the Indoor forum, but now that it's a real problem... And apologies in advance for this being a little long.

I think I'm dealing with damping here, or at least that's the closest I can find. Germinate and plant a seed. Seed grows to an inch, inch and a half out of the ground and then the plant just falls over, dead. Here's pix:

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These seeds germinated in about 24 hours and were planted then. The "fall over" happened 8 days later (so a little over 9 days, including germination). Two seeds (completely different strains), both fell over the same night and they're the only seeds I started (so I'm considering this a 100% failure). In fact, this is round 2 -- the last 3 I planted went the same way a couple weeks ago.

Roots sure look (to me) like they're going good, then all of a sudden...

Shovelhandle mentioned using a hydrogen peroxide solution to start, and I've been doing this. Mixed 5:1 water/hydrogen peroxide and then pH balanced to 6.0. (Shov said to use 4:1, but I was being real conservative). These died in the same way and in the same amount of time as the last batch, so it doesn't appear that the H2O2 had any effect.

Soil is coco coir / perlite, so the plants haven't seen any food yet (no nutrition in that soil). Last round, I had already started diluted food (FF) by now, but that didn't help any. Soil is still just a little damp and I'm not overwatering. Lighting is 18/6 6500K T5.

WTF? Some sort of soil contamination? I'm about down to that. This isn't the same coco/perlite as last time, but it's from the same batch.

What would be the best "zero maintenance" real soil to try to eliminate this as a variable? Maybe some Ocean Forest? Any other ideas at all? Is it time to give up on the coco coir?

TIA

[Shovelhandle]

Coco coir? It could be very salty. Soak and wash that stuff. Google online into the brand that you're using and see what others do or are experiencing.

In the meantime I'd use a seed starter mix (or plain, finely ground peat moss). 18+ hours of light a day.

[Token LaRoche]

Will do, and thanks again! Rinsed this stuff, but will do some reading.

Had some trouble like this on the first round, but managed to get two good plants once they were out of the baby stage. This time, no luck and it's starting to get expensive.

[Token LaRoche]

Adding more data (maybe it'll help someone else).

Got a handy-dandy EC meter recently and hadn't used it. Thought I'd try an experiment and measure the EC going into the coco and again coming out. Meter shows 240 on the tap water here and after being run through the coco once, it reads about 400-405. Rinse the soil out for a minute or two (did this with my dead plants) and it dropped to about 270. I don't know much about EC, but this doesn't seem unreasonable to me. <shrugs> Need to read up on that more.

So far, it looks like a lot of people "prep" coco coir with CalMag and everyone suggests washing it first.

[galt]

Some versions of coco that are sterilized end up loaded with salts. So if you have that type, definitely soak and rinse it well before use.

But damping off is too much water. Period. If you use paper towel method, get them out paper towel as soon as the the first tip appears, less than 1/4 inch long. That is often where the trouble starts. An extra 12 hours in paper towels and those seeds are potentially a problem. Then try letting them dry out around day 4 or 5, once you have a true set of leaves. If you water every two days, skip one more day but watch for wilting. It doesn't have to get really dry, just skip a day around the 4th or 5th day after emergence. If that does not work, treat them with a fungicide before germinating and handle them cleanly.

[Token LaRoche]

Hi galt-

Thanks! EC says that salts aren't bad, but I'll rinse the coco anyway. My last two rounds were two seeds each (100% germination using paper towel in baggie). I've pulled the seeds soon and planted them (about 24 hours from the first time the seeds saw water). Just using pH adjusted tap water (latest batch has hydrogen peroxide).

Stopped by a local hydro store on the way home from work today and talked to a plant girl there. Explained it all to her and she's thinking basics. Bring the lights down to plant level and use a fan to build stalk strength. No need to use CalMag or whatever until the plants are ready for feeding.

This is my second real grow and I had problems at this stage with the last round, but got two great plants when it all finally worked. Round 3: lights and air, let's try this! <g>

Geeze, who thought that growing a friggin' WEED would have a stumbling block or two?

[polishpollack]

If you not using potting soil, use it instead.

[catbuds]

Damping off fungus can be transmitted many ways, are you re-using growing containers? Anthing that may have come in contact with the previous grow that was affected? Make sure EVERYTHING that comes in contact with new soil, containers, or seeds has been washed well in hot water or is new. Being a fungus, dormant spores can become airborne. Follow Shovels advice on the peroxide. I don't like coco coir, personal preference, try milled spaghnum moss (a form of peat moss) & perlite. I like to sterilize my growing medium by moistening it, placing in a baking dish (several) & placing in oven pre heated to 180º for an hour. This will kill pathogens than may be in the mix. I only occasionally see damping off in the greenhouse if I over look a condensation drip hitting a seed flat. Not because of the extra water so much as the fact that wet surfaces attract fungus spores & the drip contaminates soil/surfaces that it splatters on. If you still have the problem after all this, I'd question the air intake. Re-locating may be the solution.
----I'm sorry you had this problem. Tracking down the source of any pathogen contamination can be difficult. BTW, that's definitely damping off.~~~PEACE!~~~

[catbuds]

Galt, damping off isn't necessarily from TOO MUCH water. Its a fungus disease that thrives in moisture. Sometimes where spores are present, all it takes is just enough moisture for seedlings to survive for this fungus to proliferate. Although over watering can certainly attract the spores, if the spores are already there, all it takes is just a little moisture.~~~PEACE!~~~

[Token LaRoche]

If you not using potting soil, use it instead.

I know... :) It might come to that. It's almost evolved into a "coco against me" deal. I really want to figure this out.

How you been, polish?

[Token LaRoche]

Thanks heaps, catbuds!

I'm kind of thinking the same thing (but everything here *should* be clean). Solo cups are new, the coco mix is new (or at least previously unused). I expanded it from brick about 7 months ago and it's been stored in a trash bag since. It feels completely dry.

Used hydrogen peroxide the last round and it didn't change the outcome. But, I didn't spray the plants like Shov suggested. Started two more seeds Friday night and they're already in the coco. This will be the same as last round except I'll run the lights closer, adjust the ventilation and spray the plants. Solution remains the same (germination and seedling growth): 5:1 tap water / H2O2, pH adjusted to 5.8-6.0.

I think if this round fails, it will pretty much prove the damping theory. If that's it, I'll sterilize everything.

Thanks again -- it helps!

[Token LaRoche]

Adding more:
Your comments about relocating made me think. I'm running a grow tent inside a moldy old closet (mold removed, but it's not exactly sterile). At this stage, I've been just leaving the tent open -- all the tent lighting works and it's not far along enough to need the air filter. So, I just added one more variable -- closed the tent and turned the filter on. This is really for odor, so the output is filtered, but the input comes from the non-mold side of a wall, so it might help if this is mold coming from the room.

[Shovelhandle]

spray the soil to bust fungi and microbes. it won't hurt the plants but may help them too.

[catbuds]

Oh Token, you need to pull everything out & kill thoes microscopic mold spores. Probably lots of other spores living in that mix too since they all like pretty much the same conditions. Sanitation IS prevention. When you pull EVERYTHING out, you can spray the walls down with straight peroxide, wipe it dry, spray again then let it air dry. & I do mean, do not miss an inch. There may be all sorts of pathogens that can attack your plants on thoes walls, floors & ceiling. Now that I know about that, I wonder if your tent surfaces & lights aren't contaminated too. That's always possible. If this last batch is affected, don't even bother doing it again untill you scrub everything & spray with peroxide. Use a fan to dry it out as fast as you can. Once there, that shit can be IN, not just on, drywall or other porous surfaces. You actually may end up having to relocate.

[Token LaRoche]

Thanks, catbuds & Shovel.

Three rounds of seeds now and not much success. Man, this has been something else! I'm still a noob at this and think I understand it pretty well, but there's a variable I'm missing. It could well be mold, or maybe something contaminated in the coco. Germinated two seeds a week ago Sunday (12 days ago) and one is surviving (but far from thriving). Picked up a bag of Ocean Forest today and transplanted it out of the coco into that (very tiny plant).

If that doesn't work (should know soon!), I'll do the next round in another room. The tent is convenient, but not necessary at this stage. I only really need it for odor control, and that comes later.

Another oddity in all this is that I've tried several (3-4) strains of seed (all fresh, high-end, commercial, feminized) and the only strain that hasn't died in the first 7-9 days is a Mazar White Rhino strain. Whatever it is I'm dealing with, that one strain is more resistant.

"It didn't look this hard." lol

[Token LaRoche]

spray the soil to bust fungi and microbes. it won't hurt the plants but may help them too.

Last round was pretty diligent. Water all had peroxide mixed in and I sprayed at least once a day. Really couldn't tell the difference between the peroxide batch and the non-peroxide batch (have done two with peroxide now). If that would cure the mold, it's not a mold problem. Used this same setup to produce 2 very nice plants (harvested in July). Not ruling mold out at all -- that's very possible, gut says somethin's fubar in this soil.

By the time I get this going, I'll be able to buy weed at 7-11.

[catbuds]

Well, if 7-11 sells it, it would probably be dirt weed! I think relocating your veg area is best. I'm thinking there are spores lurking in porus areas, wood, drywall, etc. Mature plants are resistant to damping off, but if you can, find another area even for the older guys. Could be other fungus type diseases lurking there too. Dont take the chance if you don't have to. There's products commercial greenhouses use to clean/treat surfaces for this kind of thing. I'm not sure if you can even get these products other than in large bulk packages. I always asked the boss if I could have a little & take home a coffee can full. Was a bitch trying to scale down from a 500 gal vat to a 2 gal sprayer! I'm NOT MATHEMATICAL !!!! I actually had to call an old college professor to do the equation! He was such a good guy. He'd do that shit for me without making me feel stupid, hell I could do that myself! LOL! The bad part was, couldn't measure it out with kitchen gadgets, I actually had to take it on campus & have him weigh it out on his calibrated uber sensitive scales. It wasn't even a pinch! See why I no longer use that shit!? But I'm so sorry dude. What you need for this thing you have is an EXORCIST! Keep us posted with how it goes when you change rooms. Seems like the only way to go.~~~PEACE!~~~~

I'd also get rid of the coco shit. Post #2 Shove suggested seed starter mix, good choice, or finely milled spaghnum moss & perlite.