To sub or not to sub?

[Ecupirate87]

I have until 5pm on monday to piss for a new job. By that time, ill be 44 days clean.

Im 5'9 225, not much working out lately.

Its a test at quest.. Just tested myself,(pic attached) and have produced a faint line. Not my first void, but i only had a cup of water to drink today.

I dont mind subbing, and have been practicing a LOT. My friend doesnt do any type of drugs. Im considering subbing just for peace of mind. I was producing ghost lines with my first void of the day a week ago.

Should I just drink a 32 oz gatorade the day of the test and go in after ive voided 3-4 times, or should I just say screw it and go sub today?

And if i do sub, if the temp goes to like 101 or 102 in the specimen cup, will the temp strip go down as the temp does? Logic says yes, but the search function has mixed responses.

[Ecupirate87]

Can somebody just tell me if the temperature strip can be manipulated? I've been practicing and the temp has been as high as 99.8. If it goes over 100 inside the specimen cup, could i cool it off and have the dot appear under 98,96 etc?? Please?

[Burnt Toast]

Can somebody just tell me if the temperature strip can be manipulated?

If it goes over 100 inside the specimen cup, could i cool it off and have the dot appear under 98,96 etc?? Please?


Why not practice (with warmed water in place of urine) and see? You'll have the answers to both of your questions there and then.

[Ecupirate87]

Why not practice (with warmed water in place of urine) and see? You'll have the answers to both of your questions there and then.

I have been practicing. Im confident I can sub and get it done quickly and quietly, and im not worried about the temp being too low. Im worried about the temp being over 100. Thats why my only remaining question is about the temp strip from the lab. If its 100 or over, and the dot is not shown, or showing at 100, does that dot move as the temp lowers? If so, i feel confident. Basically, does that dot lock the highest temp or move as the temp moves?

Ive looked at the search function and have seen mixed responses. I have my test tomorrow at Quest. Will post my experience after im done.

[Burnt Toast]

Nope. No lockup. The indicator on the temp strip changes with the temperature. By sticking the sub container (with temp strip affixed) in, lets say a fridge for a few seconds, you'll see what I mean.

[Ecupirate87]

Nope. No lockup. The indicator on the temp strip changes with the temperature. By sticking the sub container (with temp strip affixed) in, lets say a fridge for a few seconds, you'll see what I mean.

Thanks brother. Im using my buddies urine and i Looked everywhereeee for temp strips and cant find any. Subbing seems easier now. I'll post the story tomorrow

[Burnt Toast]

Thanks brother. Im using my buddies urine and i Looked everywhereeee for temp strips and cant find any.
Check your local chain pharmacy store for baby forehead thermometer strips (stick-on type). These strips are identical to the temp strips used at the collection facility.

BTW, you do need to worry about the temp being too low. More so than being too high. Because you can always cool down an overheated sample in a pinch. Its much more difficult to heat up a too-cool sample on the fly.

[Ecupirate87]

Check your local chain pharmacy store for baby forehead thermometer strips (stick-on type). These strips are identical to the temp strips used at the collection facility.

BTW, you do need to worry about the temp being too low. More so than being too high. Because you can always cool down an overheated sample in a pinch. Its much more difficult to heat up a too-cool sample on the fly.

Ive checked 3 walgreens, walmart, food lion, target, and the pet store (reptile tanks). All i found were stickers with cartoons on them, but the temp starts at 99.

Im going to heat the urine to 100 a block from the lab, attach a heating pad, crotch it with boxer briefs, boxers over it, and jeans. I've practiced for like 5 days. Sometimes sitting on the couch, walking around, etc. sometimes going out and running errands.

Ive checked in increments of 10,20,30,45,60 min. I simulate warming up the specimen cup by tucking it under my armpit as you suggested, pouring it out quietly, waiting 10-20 seconds, then checkin it with a thermometer. Every time it has read between 96-99.5. I dont see it going under 90, but i can see it going over 100. Thats why I inquired about the temp strip in the cup i will be turning in. But you laid those concerns to rest as the strip fluctuates with the temp.

Do i pretty much have it covered or am I missing something? Thanks!!

[Ecupirate87]

Well guys, here's my story. Quest closed at 3 today so i went to my buddies house at 1. It took him until 230!!! He sat there and drank a whole gallon of water just to squeeze out 3 oz. No chance of it being diluted as it was bright yellow. Got to the lab at 235 with my ID and form in hand. Waited for about 10 min.. Very nice lady. Apologized for coming in so late but she was very friendly.

In the room, nothing to it. Pulled it out, heating pad and all. Poured it in, dumped out the rest. 98 degrees. She asked for 60ml. Split it into two tubes, i initialed and signed a few places. Didn't even look at the boxes

It was very simple, but i still wont relax completely until i hear back.

Thanks burnt! You da man!

[Burnt Toast]

He sat there and drank a whole gallon of water just to squeeze out 3 oz. No chance of it being diluted as it was bright yellow. Just because a urine sample has color to it doesnt mean it has no chance of being diluted. Samples with a nice yellow color to them can still register an unsatisfactory S/G and creatinine level.

[Ecupirate87]

Im sure its possible but i doubt it. He pissed about 2 oz after only 2 cups of water. It was the last oz that tripped him up. He was pretty dehydrated as it was very hot and he was walking all over campus in the sun. Wait and see I guess, but i think ill be fine.

[Ecupirate87]

Burnt, I was feeling good after the test, but now im scared! Like I said his first 2 oz in the bottle were only from a couple cups of water. He started chugging and probably drank 85% of the gallon of water to produce the last oz.

I know theres no way to tell, but the dark yellow urine has no bearing on the specific gravity/ creatinine?

He said he hadn't drank nearly any water in 2 days.

The test didnt state it would test for nitrates.. Does that have anything to do with gravity/creatinine? Thanks.

[Burnt Toast]

Because you stated in post #9 that he drank a "whole gallon of water" is what breeds concern. To reduce the risks of overdilution, he shouldve not exceeded 16 oz of water per hour.

Color has no bearing upon S/G and creatinine levels. As Ive already stated, samples with color to them can still register unsatisfactory creatinine and S/G. The only way to see if the creatinine and S/G had diminished to "unsafe" levels is to run a validity test on the urine (Do a Google search for "drug adulteration test kits"). Otherwise, you'll be playing a guessing game which can prove to be costly.


The test didnt state it would test for nitrates.. Does that have anything to do with gravity/creatinine? Nope. Nitrites is an entirely different urine constituent being tested. Nitrites are found in some drop-in additives (depending on the brand) used to spike a "dirty" urine sample. Nitrites are also found in such foods as pork and poultry. The human body can also produce nitrites naturally, though this is a sign of a urinary tract infection. For this reason, only a tiny amount of nitrites can be permitted in a urine sample.

Under DHHS regulations, any urine sample with a nitrites level of 500 mcg/ml (micrograms per milliliter) or above is considered forensically defensible as proof of adulteration.

[Ecupirate87]

Because you stated in post #9 that he drank a "whole gallon of water" is what breeds concern. To reduce the risks of overdilution, he shouldve not exceeded 16 oz of water per hour.

Color has no bearing upon S/G and creatinine levels. As Ive already stated, samples with color to them can still register unsatisfactory creatinine and S/G. The only way to see if the creatinine and S/G had diminished to "unsafe" levels is to run a validity test on the urine (Do a Google search for "drug adulteration test kits"). Otherwise, you'll be playing a guessing game which can prove to be costly.

Nope. Nitrites is an entirely different urine constituent being tested. Nitrites are found in some drop-in additives (depending on the brand) used to spike a "dirty" urine sample. Nitrites are also found in such foods as pork and poultry. The human body can also produce nitrites naturally, though this is a sign of a urinary tract infection. For this reason, only a tiny amount of nitrites can be permitted in a urine sample.

Under DHHS regulations, any urine sample with a nitrites level of 500 mcg/ml (micrograms per milliliter) or above is considered forensically defensible as proof of adulteration.

Doesnt it help my cause that 2 out of the 3 oz were before he drank from that gallon? At that point, he had 2 cups of coffee early in the morning, and 2 cups of water right before he urinated.

He drank most of the gallon and was able to squeeze out the last oz. i figured this would help my cause as it maybe all of that water had not been processed through his body.

If you were to take an educated guess, do you think it would pass?

[Ecupirate87]

Anybody? Going crazy

[Ecupirate87]

Not that anybody cares, but i tested thursday around 3 and have not heard anything as of yet.

[un1bomber]

Great! I also tested Thursday, at about noon, and I got results today (test canceled due to immunoassay interference apparently, but that's besides the point). It's possible you may have to wait another day, but you can always call the lab to see if the results are in. It really isn't suspicious in my opinion, if you just tell them you're making sure the sample got there safely (I personally had a problem where the sample got there with the seal broken and nullified the test).

As Burnt said in Post # 13, you ARE playing a bit of a guessing game. Given your information it seems entirely plausible that you have passed. Though it is also quite possible it will show up as dilute due to low creatinine levels.

Essentially where everyone is getting at, is there's just no way to know for sure. Trust me, I don't smoke cigarettes, but recently I've started smoking a lot of them just to manage my stress level a bit, and I'm still going out of my mind with the stress.

Regardless, I wish you the best of luck and hope all turns out well.

[Ecupirate87]

Great! I also tested Thursday, at about noon, and I got results today (test canceled due to immunoassay interference apparently, but that's besides the point). It's possible you may have to wait another day, but you can always call the lab to see if the results are in. It really isn't suspicious in my opinion, if you just tell them you're making sure the sample got there safely (I personally had a problem where the sample got there with the seal broken and nullified the test).

As Burnt said in Post # 13, you ARE playing a bit of a guessing game. Given your information it seems entirely plausible that you have passed. Though it is also quite possible it will show up as dilute due to low creatinine levels.

Essentially where everyone is getting at, is there's just no way to know for sure. Trust me, I don't smoke cigarettes, but recently I've started smoking a lot of them just to manage my stress level a bit, and I'm still going out of my mind with the stress.

Regardless, I wish you the best of luck and hope all turns out well.

Thank you. I seriously doubt that it comes back dilute. Like I said, 60% of the urine was VERY concentrated. Even the last 40% was pale yellow. I know color isnt really an indicator but i feel like I would've heard by now if it was dilute. No chance of testing positive. I don't expect to hear from the lab or recruiter. No news is good news, right? She told me the employer would have results in 24-48 hrs so i feel they would've called today or yesterday. Was yours pre-employment? Who called you?

[un1bomber]

Mine was DOT-regulated pre-employment. And nobody called me, I called the MRO to ask if the test got there safely and when I did, she informed me the result was in too, but hadn't been sent to the employer yet.
In all honesty, I'm not sure what's going to happen with it yet, I'm just waiting to hear from the company to see if they want another one, if this one's actually fine, or if I just don't have the job. We'll see. I have a thread up about the topic and I'll update there when I learn more. In my opinion it's some good information about a particular brand of synthetic urine.

[hickory]

Ecupirate87: you were clean 44 days and still felt the need to sub? Just curious as to why as it seems you'd pass naturally imo, or do I have no idea what i'm talking about? (I am admittedly green -- no pun intended -- when it comes to testing but I need to learn FAST!).

I ask because I will be 30 roughly 30 days (mostly) clean when I have to pee early next week. I say "mostly" because I did really mess up and have 4 hits in the last 10 days or so before I realized I'd have to screen (2 hits about 10 days ago, 2 more 3 days ago). But I got a home kit and tested negative with a pretty firm pink strip. I'm not letting that make me lazy but it did give me hope that with some other minor preparations -- starting exercise for the next week, plenty of water -- that I could pee clean without doing anything else that might arouse suspicion (cleansing teas, subbing, etc.)

Am I setting myself up for failure? I assume these home kits only test to 50ngs. Does anyone know what Quest tests to (15ngs?) and are there home kits that test to THAT level so I can get a better idea on if I really will piss clean come next week or if I need to be looking at more drastic measures?

[Burnt Toast]

Am I setting myself up for failure? I assume these home kits only test to 50ngs. Does anyone know what Quest tests to (15ngs?) and are there home kits that test to THAT level so I can get a better idea on if I really will piss clean come next week or if I need to be looking at more drastic measures?


Quest Diagnostics uses an assay screen for the initial analysis (usually at a 50 ng/ml cutoff limit). If the sample fails the initial screen, then the sample undergoes the confirmation GC/MS, which has a cutoff threshold of 15 ng/ml.

But dont let the differing cutoff levels worry you. By doing an Advanced Search with the terms "functionally equivalent metabolites", you'll discover that even though their cutoffs numerically differ, a 50 ng assay screen is functionally equivalent to the 15 ng GC/MS.

Search, read, and learn :thumbsup:

[Ecupirate87]

Ecupirate87: you were clean 44 days and still felt the need to sub? Just curious as to why as it seems you'd pass naturally imo, or do I have no idea what i'm talking about? (I am admittedly green -- no pun intended -- when it comes to testing but I need to learn FAST!).

I ask because I will be 30 roughly 30 days (mostly) clean when I have to pee early next week. I say "mostly" because I did really mess up and have 4 hits in the last 10 days or so before I realized I'd have to screen (2 hits about 10 days ago, 2 more 3 days ago). But I got a home kit and tested negative with a pretty firm pink strip. I'm not letting that make me lazy but it did give me hope that with some other minor preparations -- starting exercise for the next week, plenty of water -- that I could pee clean without doing anything else that might arouse suspicion (cleansing teas, subbing, etc.)

Am I setting myself up for failure? I assume these home kits only test to 50ngs. Does anyone know what Quest tests to (15ngs?) and are there home kits that test to THAT level so I can get a better idea on if I really will piss clean come next week or if I need to be looking at more drastic measures?

Hey hickory, i most likely was clean. I was not willing to risk it, though. Mostly because subbing was so easy.

Burnt, a question for you, today is 6 days after my test. HR emailed me today because a question arose during my background check.

She told me the check would be done tomorrow. No mention of the drug test.

Is it safe to assume that I passed, or too early to tell? Im dying to smoke!!

[hickory]

Thanks, Ecupirate87. I'm beginning to feel the same way, but I'll elaborate on that in another post here in a sec.

For now, question for BURNT: I've done a lot of reading today but this statement from you still throws me: "even though their cutoffs numerically differ, a 50 ng assay screen is functionally equivalent to the 15 ng GC/MS."

Not sure I follow since I thought ng's were the unit of measurement that a test looked for, ie, if you're taking a 15ng test then you need to be at 14 or less to avoid detection, whereas if you're taking a 50ng test, you only need to be at 49ng's to avoid a positive. Is that not the case? Those two seem very different to me and my fear is that even as I test at home over and over and get negatives, that it may be only because I'm somewhere between 15-49 ng's (ie, not truly "clean"). And if that's the case, the wrong kinda test -- one testing down to 15ng's would blow me out of the water, right?

Seems like your saying it's standard for initial screens (aka: assay screen) to test only to detect > 50ng's and only if you fail that do they look harder and test to 15 ng's via the GC/MS but that other than that, both tests are functionally/procedurally the same?

[hickory]

So this may be overkill, but after a day of digging in and reading to learn what I can, here's where I'm landing for my test next week:

I'll save my money and use the "Tips for Diluting" as my backup plan instead of throwing a bunch of money at a cleansing product.

I'm a little nervous about getting the temp right using subbing, but it seems like the only sure way to not get a positive so that feels like it should be my Plan "A" because like Ecupirate87, I simply cannot risk not passing this test.

Question though: is real urine better than the synthetic stuff? It would seem like any lab worth a damn would have ways to detect the synthetic stuff, so that worries me... I do have a non-smoking friend who I know would donate his urine for me but he lives 90 minutes away and he'd likely have to call in sick to come give me his pee the day of my test. My wife doesn't smoke and I could use hers, but I still feel a little wary using a female's pee even though I've read it doesn't matter... So what so you, Burnt: synthetic, beg my friend to do me a solid so i have male pee, or just use my wife's?

The synthetic stuff I've seen comes with a heating pack that you rubber band to the urine bottle and I like that A LOT, so was thinking of buying that just for that even if I decide to use real urine. I'm just so nervous about getting in there and having it be 103 or 86. I would freak.

[Ecupirate87]

So this may be overkill, but after a day of digging in and reading to learn what I can, here's where I'm landing for my test next week:

I'll save my money and use the "Tips for Diluting" as my backup plan instead of throwing a bunch of money at a cleansing product.

I'm a little nervous about getting the temp right using subbing, but it seems like the only sure way to not get a positive so that feels like it should be my Plan "A" because like Ecupirate87, I simply cannot risk not passing this test.

Question though: is real urine better than the synthetic stuff? It would seem like any lab worth a damn would have ways to detect the synthetic stuff, so that worries me... I do have a non-smoking friend who I know would donate his urine for me but he lives 90 minutes away and he'd likely have to call in sick to come give me his pee the day of my test. My wife doesn't smoke and I could use hers, but I still feel a little wary using a female's pee even though I've read it doesn't matter... So what so you, Burnt: synthetic, beg my friend to do me a solid so i have male pee, or just use my wife's?

The synthetic stuff I've seen comes with a heating pack that you rubber band to the urine bottle and I like that A LOT, so was thinking of buying that just for that even if I decide to use real urine. I'm just so nervous about getting in there and having it be 103 or 86. I would freak.

If you're set on subbing, trust me.. It's super easy. I practiced 100 times out of paranoia, but it is as easy as it looks. Just practice.

Your wife, your friend, or quickfix will work. Heat it up to 100 in a cup of hot water, attach a head pad to the bottom, crotch it. Easy.

[Burnt Toast]

I've done a lot of reading today but this statement from you still throws me: "even though their cutoffs numerically differ, a 50 ng assay screen is functionally equivalent to the 15 ng GC/MS."

Not sure I follow since I thought ng's were the unit of measurement that a test looked for, ie, if you're taking a 15ng test then you need to be at 14 or less to avoid detection, whereas if you're taking a 50ng test, you only need to be at 49ng's to avoid a positive. Is that not the case? Those two seem very different to me and my fear is that even as I test at home over and over and get negatives, that it may be only because I'm somewhere between 15-49 ng's (ie, not truly "clean"). And if that's the case, the wrong kinda test -- one testing down to 15ng's would blow me out of the water, right?

A 50 ng assay is functionally equivalent to the 15 ng GC/MS. The reason why the cutoffs numerically differ is that the assay, being a non-selective methodology, recognizes all 31 metabolite concentrations combined while the GC/MS recognizes only one metabolite concentration.

THC enters the body in its ingested form and exits the body as 31 different metabolite concentrations. The most prevalent form of these metabolite concentrations is the THC-COOH concentration.

For the sample to test negative on the assay screen, the whole combination of the 31 metab concentrations must be below 50 ng.

The GC/MS, being a selective and more accurate methodology, recoginzes only the metabolite concentration that matters the most: the THC-COOH concentration. In order for the sample to be GC/MS-negative, only the THC-COOH metabolite concentration must register below 15 ng/ml. Because the GC/MS only recognizes one metabolite concentration (as opposed to the assays recognition of all 31 metabolite concentrations combined), the cutoff has to be set at a numerically lower limit in order to make the two types of tests functionally equivalent.

[hickory]

Thanks, Ecupirate87. Coupla questions though:

- How exactly do I "practice"? Since I really like the provided "heater" to keep the temp constant, I like going with Quick Fix, but is the heater it comes with reusable? If I can practice heating the water, getting it to 90-100, applying the heater, crotching, uncrotching, pouring etc. that'd be great, but it kinda looks like the heating device might be single use (or is it)?

Passing a drug test with Quick Fix Synthetic Urine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byi7n5MUonM)

(I assume it's ok to post this product link since they are a sponsor of the site, but if not I apologize!)

Also, in the video above, it talks about taking the bottle out at the test and "making sure the temp is between 90-100, but... what if it's not??? That's my biggest fear. If it's over, I can give it a minute or two to cool, but if it's under, I'm pretty much hosed, right? If that happens, should I go to my plan B which is to have my own urine diluted using the tips posted in these forums?

Any feedback you have there would be great. I'm obviously pretty effin' stressed about this test....

[hickory]

Thanks for the explanation BT. I was thinking they were the same test but just testing to different levels of THC-COOH, so was worried these over-the-counter tests were kinda useless in testing only for very, very high levels while live screens from places like Quest were testing for much lower levels.

But, if the at-home tests match up pretty well to what someone like Quest would do, I'm going to test my first-thing-in-the morning pee tomorrow and see if I pass. I passed one w-flying colors last night but that was at 11:30 pm and after drinking a big glass of Gatorade and then a big glass of water followed by several urinations before I peed into the collection cup.

If I pass tomorrow morning, should I bother with all this other stuff or just maybe drink a few glasses of water and pee before I go screen?

[un1bomber]

Thanks, Ecupirate87. Coupla questions though:

- How exactly do I "practice"? Since I really like the provided "heater" to keep the temp constant, I like going with Quick Fix, but is the heater it comes with reusable? If I can practice heating the water, getting it to 90-100, applying the heater, crotching, uncrotching, pouring etc. that'd be great, but it kinda looks like the heating device might be single use (or is it)?

Passing a drug test with Quick Fix Synthetic Urine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byi7n5MUonM)

(I assume it's ok to post this product link since they are a sponsor of the site, but if not I apologize!)

Also, in the video above, it talks about taking the bottle out at the test and "making sure the temp is between 90-100, but... what if it's not??? That's my biggest fear. If it's over, I can give it a minute or two to cool, but if it's under, I'm pretty much hosed, right? If that happens, should I go to my plan B which is to have my own urine diluted using the tips posted in these forums?

Any feedback you have there would be great. I'm obviously pretty effin' stressed about this test....


Here's how I practiced. First, I wanted to know how long I could be waiting in the waiting room before the sample was too cold for me to feel safe. So I put the QuickFix in the microwave and heated until it was at 100F. Then I crotched it. I went about my daily activities. For the most part I was sitting down, but I got up to walk from time to time to also feel safe walking normally.

After 15 minutes I checked the temp. Then 10 minutes later I checked the temp. Then every 5 minutes.

I didn't have the heating pad in my crotch with the bottle. I suppose you could do that, just sounds uncomfortable. But as a note, the heating pad is just a regular hand warmer you can buy from the store or walmart.

The heating pad is not reusable, just like all chemical hand warmers.

What I also practiced was going into the bathroom and uncrotching the bottle, squirting the quickfix into a cup and putting the bottle back. Made me feel safer knowing I could do it without fumbling.

The at home tests are just about as accurate as anything the lab has. They are rated the same in general. If you pass an at-home test with flying colors, I'd say don't bother subbing. You don't need the extra stress of trying to sub out the urine if you know you'll pass.

[Ecupirate87]

Here's how I practiced. First, I wanted to know how long I could be waiting in the waiting room before the sample was too cold for me to feel safe. So I put the QuickFix in the microwave and heated until it was at 100F. Then I crotched it. I went about my daily activities. For the most part I was sitting down, but I got up to walk from time to time to also feel safe walking normally.

After 15 minutes I checked the temp. Then 10 minutes later I checked the temp. Then every 5 minutes.

I didn't have the heating pad in my crotch with the bottle. I suppose you could do that, just sounds uncomfortable. But as a note, the heating pad is just a regular hand warmer you can buy from the store or walmart.

The heating pad is not reusable, just like all chemical hand warmers.

What I also practiced was going into the bathroom and uncrotching the bottle, squirting the quickfix into a cup and putting the bottle back. Made me feel safer knowing I could do it without fumbling.

The at home tests are just about as accurate as anything the lab has. They are rated the same in general. If you pass an at-home test with flying colors, I'd say don't bother subbing. You don't need the extra stress of trying to sub out the urine if you know you'll pass.

What unabomber said is the way to go.

So do you guys think im fine? 6 days later and they called me today about my background check without mention of the test.

Am I safe to smoke or should I wait until i start?

[Burnt Toast]

Am I safe to smoke or should I wait until i start?
Take it one step further...wait until the first paycheck. Just in case there is that unexpected retest due to whatever you done wrong or whatever the lab done wrong (ie; accidents involving the urine specimen).

And be on the lookout for Randoms, Post-Incidents, and "Reasonable Suspicions".

[Ecupirate87]

Passsed!!!!!!!!

Sub club for life.

Gonna go toke one. Just gotta fugure out if they do randoms. Got a good cover story to ask a coworker. Bout to get riiight. Thanks burnt!!!

[Anonymous1987]

Thanks, Ecupirate87. I'm beginning to feel the same way, but I'll elaborate on that in another post here in a sec.

For now, question for BURNT: I've done a lot of reading today but this statement from you still throws me: "even though their cutoffs numerically differ, a 50 ng assay screen is functionally equivalent to the 15 ng GC/MS."

Not sure I follow since I thought ng's were the unit of measurement that a test looked for, ie, if you're taking a 15ng test then you need to be at 14 or less to avoid detection, whereas if you're taking a 50ng test, you only need to be at 49ng's to avoid a positive. Is that not the case? Those two seem very different to me and my fear is that even as I test at home over and over and get negatives, that it may be only because I'm somewhere between 15-49 ng's (ie, not truly "clean"). And if that's the case, the wrong kinda test -- one testing down to 15ng's would blow me out of the water, right?

Seems like your saying it's standard for initial screens (aka: assay screen) to test only to detect > 50ng's and only if you fail that do they look harder and test to 15 ng's via the GC/MS but that other than that, both tests are functionally/procedurally the same?

For me back in 2006 when I failed the test, I was 45ng and the cut off was 15ng. I would say with almost complete certainty that there is a big difference.
If you decide to sub as I did, heat up the pee in a plastic baggy in boiling water before transferring it into a 1 or 2oz shampoo bottle (plastic baggies are too noisy, trust me I tried to practice with them!) and crotch it...or I dunno what the male term for that is but you know, tuck it behind your sack or whatever. Remember they are standing outside the door, and you are supposed to start peeing and then put the container under you. What I did, was I only had to pee a little, so I peed a little, poured my sub in, and then let a bit more trickle into the toilet for realistic emphasis. Two days now and no call back. When I failed Quest in 2006, I got a call the very next day. Best of luck to the both of you!

[hickory]

Thanks, Anon. Today I bought some supplies and started experimenting a little with subbing. I got several small 3 oz travel bottles, a baby thermometer, some hand-warmers and some tighty-whiteys (a size smaller than I'd normally get for extra snug fit). Took my own sample and immediately took the temp: 97.6. Then I crotched it w/o any kind of warmer and monitored temp changes. Was surprise thatd after 15 min it'd already lost 2 full degrees and got a little worried that it'd be well below 90 by the time I could get to a lab and get in to test, but that was while I was mostly walking around and it wasn't super snug up in there. For the next 15 min I mostly sat with legs pressed firmly together and much to my delight it actually gained a degree back (to 96.2). I then had to run an errand driving so took it with me and when I was done 30 min later the temp had jumped even more all the way to 97.7, a tenth of a degree *warmer* than when it left my body. PERFECT.

So I'm no longer so worried about temp control: my body seems to keep it well above the required minimum and of course there's no way my body would OVER-heat it, so I believe I'm set without even worrying about the hand-warmers.

So now my biggest question is what to use as my sub: I have 3 oz of synthetic on order for delivery tomorrow and my buddy who lives out of town is coming in too. He'll pee for me and I'll fill two bottles just in case, and then immediately freeze them. Am a LITTLE worried about that though.

DOES ANYONE KNOW.... does the freezing/unfreezing process do any damage to the sample or produce any measurables that would let them know the sample wasn't fresh from a bladder, ie, that it had been frozen and then thawed? I like the idea of using real urine over synthetic, but since I'd have to freeze and then thaw I'm kinda leaning towards utilizing the synthetic. I'm going to do a little digging around to see what I see but if anyone has any success/failure stories with freezing or any scientific info around why that does/doesn't work, i'd greatly appreciate it!!