Progrow 180 - Grow Box - Possible LED Burn. Help!

[Tomthehippie]

Hi all, long time no see!

Just in the middle of setting up my new led grow box. The plan: to make a very small compact unit that could easily be modified. My setup uses storage boxes that can be stacked - if i run out of head room i just add another box!

The environment is controlled be by two 12v temperature thermostats - one controls a 12v pc fan, the other a 12 heater. Uber simple uber cheap!

The boxes can hold 84lt, I'm currently using two stacked: 1.4ft by 2.25ft by 2.5 ft cubic feet: 7.875. The inside of the boxes have been sprayed white.

The led is from prow grow, the PG180. Kicks out 160w and has a switch mode between veg and bloom.

Find attached a few photos!

All looks grand however i have an issue: On to the grow! Ive gone with some of dutch passions new AutoFrisian Dew. All 3 germinated so i popped them in to the box with the led around 10inches away (i decided to use one storage box for height to start with). As I'm new to LEDS 10 inches seemed like a good starting point for distance - temps were fine however.. growth has been poor to say the least! Almost none existent. The below image is at 2 weeks in soil! I have done some research and it seems this may be led burn, leaves are thick, all leaves were sad and seemed to wilt (not due to over watering).

I decided to introduce a 2nd box doubling the hight to 2.5ft, i removed 2 plants and have placed them in the green house to recoup and have added a tomato with the remaining Dew into the box to test for the best hight. The tom is around 27inch away from the light and again seems to be doing poorly! Stumped!

Questions:
1. Is my grow space to small for my led? Do i need a larger area, are my plants getting to much light..
2. Do i have an led that just needs a hell of a lot of head space? (if i add another box the light will be 40inch away from plants! For a small stealth box this seems excessive!
3. Is my led faulty? They seems bright to me!

I have planted two more batches of toms today, one batch in the green house, one in the box to test growth rate from scratch.

Grateful for any advise!

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[Token LaRoche]

No expert here, but it seems like you would want the lights closer to the plants, not further away. I run my lights (fluorescent) about 2" from the tops of the plants from start to finish (can't burn 'em with cool lights). Seems like the same would be true for LED.

[Mal420xl]

thats not led burn. that plant looks like its drowning more than anything else or ph maybe.
you should fill out the troubleshooting form. need to know a little more.
it isnt the light tho. I have some seriously extreme led lights and i can get both of them within 12-18" with out any problems
and i have uv leds in my spectrum as well. if anything was really gonna burn it itd be uv.
10" inches should be fine. more room is always nice if you have the space and light to fill it.
try running both red and blue and see if it helps. plants still use some red in veg and blue in flower.
but we need to know about the soil ferts ph, watering sched. autos so light cycle dont really matter as much.

[Esteban1]

"White Paper" please. Soil, as in which type of mixture are you running with? IMHO if using a traditional store bought brand you're smoked! The community just had a quick overview on ideal soil mixtures as well as additives.... Teas etc. Don't despair & freak out, looks ok just a bit slow. Oh, btw..... Genetics have a lot to do with it as well. Could have a slow starter that will blow ur mind in a few weeks. Been there once. Take a deep breath cuz it'll workout. Kudos to the setup!!!!


:thumbsup:

[Tomthehippie]

Seeds were germinated in Coir, ph was a little high at 7.5, ec 0.6ms, temps were a little cold at night 11° lowest - however its a hardy strain. Watering was minimal. Wondered if it was something to do with the coir so transplanted - hense why the photo above is in soil.

Have grown countless grows before (my last indoor along time ago! (http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/104871-shed-log.html)) but this has me stumped. I suppose it just could be a mix of all the above being slightly off..

Cheers for the kudos!

[Mal420xl]

probably right about that. everything i have read about autos says they are finicky about transplanting. might want to get them in a final container sooner than later.

[Esteban1]

Personally never toyed with an "auto". Must be fun cuz I hear they just start flowering at the strangest times!? Thinking on the lines of Token & put that bad boy led closer to the top!! Led's emit almost no heat so should be golden. Again, they look cool & you'll figure it out. You're Green, no doubt, PEACE BE UPON YOU!

:thumbsup:

[Tomthehippie]

Think i may have to respectfully disagree with you both. After having more of a think and research. I think its the light, to much, to close, to young. Read below taken from 6 Steps to Cure 99% of Marijuana Growing Problems | Grow Weed Easy (http://www.growweedeasy.com/growing-marijuana-plant-problem-deficiency)

LEDs generate very little heat, but can still light-stress plants, so it's best to keep high powered LEDs (above 90 watts) at least 10 inches away from your plants. When the individual bulbs are bigger than 1W (for example if it has 3W or 5W bulbs), you'll want to keep the lights even further away, up to 2-3 feet for some of the newer, extremely powerful LED grow lights.

It's hard to make exact rules about how far LED grow lights should be from your plants, as each model is so different, so start with trusted lights that are proven for growing marijuana, and just be aware of the possibility of light stress. Start LED grow lights further from your plants than you think you should, and slowly move lights closer each day until you've found the "sweet spot."

To determine if your plant is getting light stressed from LED grow lights, you use the appearance of your plant's leaves to determine if the lights can be moved closer.

If leaves closest to the lights start showing signs of stress (leaves turning brown/crispy or buds being bleached white), move the lights further away.

Use extreme caution when attempting to move your grow lights closer, and avoid moving them more than an inch closer in a day, so you can watch the plant's reaction.

[Tomthehippie]

To elaborate because my box was only 3 cubic the amount of light was far to great in a convinced space for the seedlings to thrive. This has stressed the plants and stunned growth. :)

[Mal420xl]

i have a 700 watt black dog light i can get within 12 inches or so to seedlings no problem, it isnt your light. blackdog makes some of the most intense leds lights around

[Token LaRoche]

No problem with the disagreement, Tom (as long as we all seek the truth, eh?).

I'm really new at this so could very well be wrong. But I've never heard of light stress. Heat stress from lights, sure, but that shouldn't be an issue with LED or fluorescent. Seems to me that once you remove heat from the equation, you're only left with one other kind of temperature, and that's the color of the light. What's the color temperature of that unit?

I'm really curious about this because I'm 12 weeks into my first grow and had the SAME PROBLEM! Got the seeds out of the ground and they pretty much did nothing for two weeks (seriously). Coco/perlite grow using Fox Farms liquid nutes. I started with CFL's at maybe 6-8 inches, but with no growth, I moved them into the (yeah, brand new) grow tent with a T5 panel of 6000K 2' tubes.

I still have not figured this out, BUT... By the time the plants actually started showing real growth above ground, they were almost rootbound below ground. The only thing I can surmise from this is that the whole time I was worried about what I was seeing, all the cool shit was going on with what I wasn't seeing. Those plants were growing a hella root system when I thought they were doing nothing. They took off pretty quick once the roots were in place. Can't explain it based on what I've read. Maybe it's a strain thing or whatever, and I don't have the experience to judge it.

Anyway, not dissing your experience at all, just never heard of light stress (and us noobs read a lot). I'll go read your link now.

Cheers!

[Token LaRoche]

Okay, I'm back. ;)

Interesting... that site (groweeedeasy.com) is what I used for the basis for my first grow, still in progress. This was my beginning: Easy Beginner Grow Cannabis Guide w/ CFL Grow Lights | How to Grow Marijuana | Grow Weed Easy (http://www.growweedeasy.com/easiest-grow-method-cfl-coco-coir)

I came HERE because I needed to know more. Not slamming sites or anything (honest). And I do like the coco/perlite approach. But, I dunno... On the link you posted, the growweedeasy folks use this as a test for too much light:


Back of Your Hand Test - For MH, HPS, CFLs and T5 grow lights

Set up your grow lights and turn them on (make sure they've had time to warm up)
Gently place your hand - palm down - right above the tallest part of your plant
Wait 10-30 seconds
If the heat coming from the light feels too warm for your hand, then it's going to be too much light for your cannabis.

I'm here to tell ya... That ain't a light test, it's a heat test. And there is nothing magical about LEDs -- the heat they produce (almost none) and the color temperature is all that matters to the plant. Er, well, unless someone proves otherwise, I guess. (Gotta leave the doors open; ya never know, right? Maybe LED's have a 3rd dimension?)

Not jumpin your shit here, but it sounds like snake oil.

[Esteban1]

Tom, it's all good! Go with your ♥/instinct & you'll be golden. Do not necessarily need to Agree with ANYTHING STATED in this forum. These are only guidelines that have worked for members & You my friend must separate good information/BS from your informed info. Kinda like wheat from the chaff. Didactic knowledge will only get you so far in This life. Peace be upon you.

:thumbsup:

[Esteban1]

Tomatoes looking good??

:stoned:

[Mattingtons]

Unrealated but does anyone know of anybody selling in fareham hampshire? :/ been living here for two years and im tired of travelling 45mins to the next city where i know people.

[Shovelhandle]

I do not know jack shit about LEDs, but I will comment that the grow shop I visit uses them and they keep them quite a good distance from fully mature pepper and tomato plants. (I dunno, 2 feet? three feet?)