View Full Version : LED-WATER-HEATSINK
LedElk
03-17-2013, 11:08 AM
Hello! I am a noob DIY-LED-GUY, in need of assistance. Now, I'm about to fire up an LED-DIY grow and since this is my first time ever making an LED-LAMP I've decided to jump straight into the deep end of the pool and do a water-cooled rig. As pipes are mostly round there was an issue with lack of flat space to mount the LEDs on and the right parts was hard to find, so it kind of just ended up like it is.
My question is:
will it work?
I have an aquarium pump that goes between the "radiator" and the rig. The rig is supposed to cool 6x10w LedEngin LEDs. I have no idea how much heat they generate or how this heatsink will handle it. It might heat the water faster than it cools and end up like an expensive short-lived radiator.
So, I'm hoping someone with the XP can just take a look at this thing and give it a "YES" or a "NO". The four sides are about a foot each.
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Mal420xl
03-17-2013, 11:43 AM
that looks like it could develop sweating problems. maybe try to duplicate a pc/drive cooling system.
LedElk
03-17-2013, 12:13 PM
sweating problems
What exactly is sweating? Are you thinking of condensation? It had not occurred to me at all, I'll have to take a look at that!
Do you think this rig would manage the heat? It's basically a solid heatsink but with running water going through it, I'm not counting very much on the "radiator" to dissipate alot of heat.
Mal420xl
03-17-2013, 12:29 PM
yeah i meant condensation. i think it will but you need fill in the middle section also. the idea is to use water to move the heat off. even if you just have a fan blowing over the coil it can help. just make sure you make absolutely sure its all water tght. and insulate the hoses. take thermal tubing and run it thru the fins of the heat sink.
LedElk
03-18-2013, 12:15 PM
The middle-section is actually where I was going to place a cpu fan/heatsink with 3x10w Leds... I'm trying weezards advice of separating the reds and the blues so that I can adjust the height of the two lamps and thereby control the R/B-ratio.
So what you see there is basically the whole thing, except for the aquarium pump and the second lamp of course.
I'm placing the coil beneath the air-intake so I hope that will be a sufficient airflow. If not, I'll try to mount a small fan on it, like you said. As for water-proofing I guess it would be a small catastrophe if there was a leak! I'll make sure to have it running atleast a day before mounting the LEDs to find the weak spots.
Thanks for the replies, much appreciated!
I may have to rethink the independent-lamps plan to utilize the middle section for heatsinking.
Mal420xl
03-18-2013, 12:18 PM
sounds good man be cool to see it when its done
LedElk
03-18-2013, 03:38 PM
sure thing! I'll post an update when it's all assembled. Got my seeds in germ yesterday, so things are happening!
Weezard
03-18-2013, 08:11 PM
Howzit Ledelk?
Way to go, brah!
That's a clever design!
It should work a treat too.
Wish I had thought of this.
Don't worry about condensation though, your water temperature will be higher than the ambient at all times.
As for leakage, I suggest that you disassemble and reassemble using teflon pipejoint tape.
It allows a tighter fit, seals micro-leaks and separates and insulates the dissimilar metals.
(If you use dissimilar metal with water, you create a voltaic junction.
In effect, a small battery that will actively corrode the joint.)
Then polish the cap heads until they shine like good deeds in an evil world.
The led/cap interface is the most critical for rapid heat transfer from the junction.
All the rest can handle some "lag".
Just for safety, I'd add a cheap 50 ℃ thermal switch to cut the power.
Water can not be compressed, so a radiator fan failure that allows the water to reach it's boiling point might create some drama, yah?
Now I'm gonna pull up a hammock and watch.
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Aloha,
Weezard
LedElk
03-19-2013, 06:31 PM
Hello, Weezard! Pleased to meet you, sir:cool: I've been reading alot about LEDs in these past few months and your contribution to the area has been very helpful! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Now, as I said earlier, I would like to make two lamps for ratio-control, so I'm glad to hear you think it should work without adding more heatsink (I'm assuming that's what you meant). The rig was just put loosely together to get the pics so disassembly will not be needed. I wasn't really sure how I would get the joints watertight, but my default plan was to use some kind of glue or sealant. I haven't heard about the "voltaic joint" phenomenon, and although the glue might have prevented it, I will definitely be looking into using the kind of tape you described. It might be a good thing to have a non-permanent assembly for later, if I can avoid the glue alltogether!
As for safety, I'll try to find such a switch as you described there, but could I also add a fuse? If there is a leak somewhere and it shorts the circuit, could I save some expensive LEDs by adding a fuse to the beginning of the circuit and stopping the floodwave of current before it reaches the LEDs, or is that not how it works? (Guess the best thing would be to make the rig water-tight from the get-go, right?)
Well, thanks for tuning in!
Weezard
03-19-2013, 07:05 PM
"(Guess the best thing would be to make the rig water-tight from the get-go, right?)"
Absatively!
Half the battle is knowing what not to worry about.
Problem with fuses, even the super-fast micro-fuses, is that LEDs blow faster!
They will handilyprotect your fuses from current spikes. :(
By all means use a fuse.
But don't expect any LED protect.
Bet da fuse, you gonna lose.
Betta buy a smoke detect. :D
By-m-bye
Weeze
LedElk
03-20-2013, 11:18 AM
You fuse, you lose huh? Well, then I'll just have make sure the rig is tight. It's tempting to dab some sealant on the joints, but it would be nice to be able to twist the pipes tho, so I can adjust the angle the beams if needed... We'll see how it goes.
I did acquire some "plumber's tape" from the plumber-store, I guess it is the right kind as they only had that one, but the edges of the pipes are razor-sharp and shreds the tape going in... Might need to file it down a bit and get rid of that edge.
I'll post updates. Nothing is happening in the germ department yet, so I've got lots of time to get this right.
Mal420xl
03-20-2013, 11:41 AM
only need a wrap and half if its fairly thick tape. when you do wrap it on make sure do it like saran wrap. if it keeps giving issues you can get a liquid plumbers putty...not the stuff you use to seal sink drains. the tape should work great tho. dont file the threads use a wire brush
LedElk
03-20-2013, 04:10 PM
Newsflash! 2 seeds have popped:D I've got 2 seeds of "critical Haze" and 3 "Dreamtime" mixed strain-seeds, all of which are from Mr. Nice's seedbank.
I'm hoping they respond well to LEDs, but as I have about 80 mixed strain-seeds, there's got to be some strains well-suited for this.
I'll be looking for a wire brush, mal420xl, that would probably be perfect for this. But, what do you mean by "wrap it like saran wrap"? The plumber said to wrap it the opposite way of screwing, so the tape doesn't get unwound.
I've got the seedlings under a 250wCFL and I am planning on a short veg-time and a quick harvest to find a good mother(s) then go perpetual-H.
This is my second grow, The first one was a half-assed mess and I never got to harvest anything...
Mal420xl
03-20-2013, 05:26 PM
that means pull it sorta tight as youre wrapping it and yeah def want it opposite. sounds like youre well on your way...oh you can just call me mal no need for all the extra typing ya know.
LedElk
03-20-2013, 08:05 PM
Okay, mal! I just tried the tape some more without softening the edges of the pipe and I think you're right about the "wrap and a half" as I overdid it a tad the first time and that contributed to the shredding of the tape. I'll still need to get rid of that razor edge, though.
Weezard
03-20-2013, 08:48 PM
Plumbers remove that edge with a linoleum knife.
But, a Swiss army knife will do the trick.
On big jobs, I used a reamer chucked into a drill.
Use the hard metal Ts to tap threads into the soft copper pipe.
A little cutting oil will help a lot.
Once you have made and cleaned the threads the tape will work right.
Aloha,
Weeze
LedElk
03-20-2013, 10:53 PM
I just tried it with the tiny serrated knife on my wine opener (I'm more of a beer man) and it worked brilliantly. The Ts are slightly smaller than the pipe, so it doesn't thread... I'll try some other threaded bits I've got to do this, but the Ts aren't the best fit, that is a bit of a pain. With the tape and all I think it's gonna work out allright, though.
LedElk
03-21-2013, 03:48 PM
Okay, I'm done cleaning up the edges of the pipes and the Ts are an even worse fit now, but I've assembled one T as a test using a dab of glue along with the tape. The tape doesn't shred this time, but I imagine it would work better if the pipe were threaded despite the slight difference in size. I'll need to look for a "threader" piece.
The pipes I've got are an old type, according to the plumber, so next time I'll definitely do this using the current standard sizes. Doesn't feel right having to smear glue all over the place... But I decided to use what I had lying around for this project, and I'm not giving up on that yet!
Good news: All 5 seeds are in veg.
Weezard, do sativas generally respond worse to LEDs than indica's?
Weezard
03-21-2013, 09:11 PM
"Weezard, do sativas generally respond worse to LEDs than indica's?"
Generally, yes.
Skinny leaves, smaller leaf area, and they like to get too tall too fast.
That said, I do have a Sativa-leaner that loves leds.
And the fat-leafed K. O. Kush, limps and gripes until it gets sunlight.
With this small of a sample base it's hard to draw solid conclusions, but generally . . . :)
They all transpire more slowly under leds due to lack of radiant heat, so water less.
How much they "eat" seems specific to the strain.
Update:
The dryer sheet trick has a glitch.
There is at least one kind of Fungus gnat that can get through them.
Still, it's just an occasional "flyer".
I can live with that.
It was clouds of flyers and billions of root munchers.
Still no root aphids or whitefly.
And no budworms on the short plants.
(I'll tuck a sheet in the upper branches of the tall gals this season to repel the mamma moths.)
Caveat:
We tend to underestimate our pretty purple light.
I've killed a few clones by keeping the light too close.
Same goes for seedlings.
And I watched an otherwise intelligent man purchase 2 UFOs, and hang them 2" from his canopy.
That intensity stops growth.
Way too many photons.
More than the roots could possible keep up with.
He concluded that leds suck and proceeded to tell everybody how much they suck.
Never wondered at the superb results others were getting.
Kinda sad, he's a good grower.
Why am I telling you this?
A cautionary tale.
The height of the light has got to be right.
Your lights?:
'lings stretch?
Get 'em closer.
'lings fall over?
Too close.
Havin' fun yet? :D
Aloha,
Weeze
unforgiven3x
03-22-2013, 04:33 AM
strange thing for a first post but meh here goes.
totally noob grower here, but i have done lots of plumbing.
why wouldn't you just get proper copper t's and copper caps for your sinks, ten solder all of it together?
i just see a major safety issue here.
basically from a plumbing perspective, it looks like a kid tryin ta plug a square peg in a round hole. the fittings do not match the pipe.
otherwise, te idea looks solid.
LedElk
03-22-2013, 12:24 PM
Hi, Unforgiven, thanks for the reply!
And I get what you're saying. I definitely agree, but it was such a hassle finding the right pieces to fit the pipe/surface-area/cost/time equation that I kind of got fed up with it and settled for the next best thing... I'm not a highly experienced DIY'er, so that is a lesson learned!
Now, as for copper Ts, why would they fit any better? Are you suggesting that I could solder the gap and that would do the trick? If not, the problem with the size difference is the out-dated dimension of the pipes, not the Ts. If I could do it again I would do that. I'll head down to the plumber store and see if they have copper Ts, as I do have the receipt for the chrome ones. I'm "that guy with the lamp-whatever-project" now, so It's probably no big deal.
Buying new pipes would also be a solution. Now that I think about it, you meant soldering the gap, right?
Oh, by the way, can you solder copper with a 60w iron?
Weezard, thanks for the lamp advice, I'll be keeping a very close (not too close!) eye on stretching and all, but as I'm a newgrower myself, I don't have alot of reference-points to refer to... There's the issue of R/B-ratio-stretch too consider also, right?
Well, I'm learning for sure!
Mal420xl
03-22-2013, 12:33 PM
you can as long as its not silver solder and you dont need that. i havent had any stretching issues with my leds so far, in fact as long as i keep them in the sweet spot they just started filling in underneath big time. being primarliy indica helps on that tho :) i can only imagine how much better that would be if i hadnt had ph issues at first. admittedly i have not had any sativas yet. but i think they would be lovin these things.
LedElk
03-22-2013, 12:41 PM
While I got you guys here, I have yet another pipe-issue.
I'm going to bend these thin pipes into a spiral as shown in my first post, but how would I mount them into a single pipe? I've got up to 8 of these "strands".
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Mal420xl
03-22-2013, 01:00 PM
well i cant remember the name for the fitting, maybe junction....no..... crap they use them in automotive and industrial coatings applications. they use for metered mixing and filtering systems etc. they have varying numbers of ports that flow into one outlet. not sure but i suppose as long as its low pressure you could try fit them all in to one threaded fitting and make a solder cap around them where they go in. weeeeeezard this sounds like your realm....of which you seem to abound.
LedElk
03-22-2013, 01:54 PM
That sounds like it would do the trick, mal. Soldering is probably the way to go with metals, but would those fittings need to be copper? Can you solder copper and brass? or chrome and copper?
And one general DIY question: In the field of adhesives, is epoxy generally top dog? Seems like it is a versatile and strong applicant.
Mal, what type of LED lamp are you using? I'm looking forward to trying out the RnB-ratio to find the "sweet-spots"! adjusting the height and all... gon' be good! I'll be doing scrog by the way. fast first round, then Perpetual H with good mother-bonsai.
We'll see how this project turns out. I have had some issues with half-assing and over-thinking. I've got a strange combo of theoretical detail-fixation and sloppy practical application going on:D
Mal420xl
03-22-2013, 03:30 PM
That sounds like it would do the trick, mal. Soldering is probably the way to go with metals, but would those fittings need to be copper? Can you solder copper and brass? or chrome and copper?
And one general DIY question: In the field of adhesives, is epoxy generally top dog? Seems like it is a versatile and strong applicant.
Mal, what type of LED lamp are you using? I'm looking forward to trying out the RnB-ratio to find the "sweet-spots"! adjusting the height and all... gon' be good! I'll be doing scrog by the way. fast first round, then Perpetual H with good mother-bonsai.
We'll see how this project turns out. I have had some issues with half-assing and over-thinking. I've got a strange combo of theoretical detail-fixation and sloppy practical application going on:D
gotta be careful on mixing metals and water especially moving water. think weezard mentioned something about that earlier. if the solder will stick you can do it but that doesnt mean you should.
epoxy in a lot of ways is like solder. it has to be able to grab a hold of something to stick or be able to etch a spot it can hold on to. find one that is for heat and water and you should be ok. i will mention some have funky chemicals that out-gas
from somewhat moderate heat depending on where its used it generally wont matter tho.
i have a blackdog bd360 in my veg tent and bd700 for my flower tent. the closest i can get the360 to the plants is 14 inches once they get a little bigger. i havent had a flowering plant under the 700 yet but the co. says without co2 its around 18+ depending on the age of the plants. and it will fry them like nothing....i had to see what would happen....didnt i? :)
low_rdr
03-22-2013, 03:32 PM
I must put my $.02 in here.
First the idea is novel, as nobody has pointed out so far, completely unnecessary, unless you go with 1000 (3w) diodes but very novel.
Second, epoxy is decent as long as you scrape both surfaces before use. But I swear, I don't wanna hear you using epoxy anywhere near this heat sink.
Third, use the right parts for the job. If your using copper tubing, use copper fittings, there are TONS of online stores that are super cheap on parts.
Fourth, Use solder on your pipes, don't use the stupid caulk, high pressure or low pressure, use the soder, after each piece is made, submerge it in water and turn an air pump on it, pressurize it, and make sure there are no leaks.
Fifth, use a pipe bender to make your coils, coil them around a 2" pipe - If you feel a pipe bender isn't needed and you choose to do it by hand, make sure the coils are super tight, as close to air tight as you can get.
Sixth, and this most important, not only for your personal safety but for your freedom, DO NOT 'half ass' anything on this project. Water and electricity is one area of DIY that NOBODY half asses for very important reasons - ADDED to this reason, your using metal tubing, which means your creating one large electrical conductor, the fact that you haven't taken condensation into consideration is a HUGE red flag.
Seventh (yes, there is more) - what kind of boards are you working on for your LED's? Which transformers and lights are you using?
Finally - I've been working on a design for an LED light panel for a CO2 grow that should give enough penetration to any grow no matter what strain your dealing with. As soon as I'm done with the design it's off to get the patent. If you can create something that would be of use for me for cooling, that would be great. I'm planning on pushing this idea to large companies coming into the commercial end of things, the heat-sink could actually serve two purposes in my application, however would need a slight modification for the type of grows I'm considering... At any rate, don't half ass it, there could be possibilities.
LedElk
03-22-2013, 04:57 PM
Yeah, the "voltaic joint" phenomenon. Lots of stuff to keep in mind here, but it normally dawns on me before I make the mistake. I will definitely be careful with placing the lights too close at first, then it's just a matter of resisting sweetening the sweet spot;)
LedElk
03-22-2013, 05:35 PM
Hey low_rdr! The project is unnecessary compared to a normal aluminium heatsink, but It's what I had lying around and I thought it would be a cool (npi) thing to do. I really appreciate your advice and as I'm actually quite serious about security (despite the cirucmstances) I'll do the copper Ts+solder. No epoxy!
My cab is actually lined with drywall as fire-proofing. Not that it makes it safe, but safer than a wooden-cab, right? The last thing I want is a fire. I even considered water-balloons as an automatic fire-extinguisher:D You know, condensation hadn't occurred to me, partly because as weezard pointed out, that the rig would be hotter than ambient temp so it won't happen. But then again, I am probably in the deep end here. Good thing I've got you guys here to look this thing over!
About the lamp itself:
(I was going to ask before mounting all this, so I'm only 87% sure it will work)
9 LedEngin LEDs total
4x10w 623nm red
3x10w 660nm red
2x10w 460nm blue
powered by
2x Meanwell APC35-700
35W 15-50V 700mA
That's it. I hope I got this right, as it was pretty expensive stuff. It's still packaged, though.
low_rdr
03-22-2013, 06:45 PM
The rig will ONLY be hotter than the ambient temp during lights on.
What voltage are your emitters? The ones I'm using are 6-7v and my wavelength varies between 620-630nm
What I'm seeing though is you have two 35 watt transformers, but 90 watts worth of lights.
Using multiple transformers is perfectly fine, but you can't use more power than you can transform. Luckily the transformers you have are protected so they'll switch off, but you'll need another transformer - You can get a pack of 10 of those transformers for roughly $70, I haven't seen 5 packs any lower than $50 though. As far as your emitters, what brand did you get?
I got 200 of the prolight star 10w's for $515 and 100 of the generic blue 460nm's for $200, giving me a whopping (cry) 80k lumens on a 3k power drawl. Mine are all still in the boxes until I get the design down pat and ready to patent, but lately I've only had a few hours a week to put into it.
the 3k watts are being broken into 4 switchable pieces at 750 watts each, each using a 800 watt Ablecom PWS 801-1R
The red and blue will be seperated, so the panels will be 2 solid red, 1 solid white, 1 mixed (so it can be switched from full spectrum veg to full spectrum bloom) I haven't ordered my soldering boards yet which is why I was interested in what your source was. I can have them printed for about $45 each, but I'd like to find a cheaper source if I can, I know I can get fully wired 12x12 blanks for $13, but I need 36x12 panels
low_rdr
03-22-2013, 07:27 PM
Eliminate the coils
Just an idea, but you can eliminate the coils indefinitely depending on the type of grow your doing - Using a blast chiller inserted into a 5 gallon bucket, you can use that for your feed line (note: this will cause condensation during lights on)
I know the heat given off from my transformers is going to be an issue in the type of rooms I'm going to be setting up, I can't post specs here because of everything else I've posted, but I've now got enough space to play with it :D
Another idea I had for your heat sink was to mount your transformers directly to an aluminum spreader and solder that into your frame. Although I feel this would adequately dissipate almost all the heat generated from those two transformers (or three, however it works out) this would be a marvelous application in what I'm building. Although unfortunately it would increase the cost exponentially.
anyway, if you could let me know the source of your circuit board and let me know if you just ordered a blank or had it manufactored that would be great. As I said, mine are $45 each for what I want so far, and thats not exactly cost effective for what I want to do.
(The idea is to create large quantity grow rooms for under 10k each including CO2, RDWC, lighting, and cooling in a sealed environment)
Weezard
03-22-2013, 08:04 PM
"The rig will ONLY be hotter than the ambient temp during lights on. "
It's a good thought, but you quit thinking about it a little too soon:
It will be ~at the ambient during lights out.
Relax, condensation will not be a problem. :cool:
If you decide to sweat solder, I'd advise you to do it right.
Use plumber's solder, acid flux, and a torch.
If you decide to goop it instead.
There is an epoxy stop-leak available that has the look and feel of modeling clay.
I had a thought about your thin tubes.
Not sure how you plan to do the manifold, but I see no reason to bother spiraling them.
You could just slide them into a larger pipe for a counter-flow chiller.
Or, you could just buy a counter-flow chiller.
The are sold at brewing supply stores for chilling wort.
'twere me, I'd just spread them out and let them radiate the excess heat directly to the air.
I mean, it's only 90 watts, yah?
Water cooling, while cool, is total overkill here.
I do have a suggestion to simplify.
Take all those fitting back to the store.
Buy a roll of 3/4" soft copper that's used for supply lines.
It's very soft, with thick wall. Can be bent by hand.
Mark it off at intervals and use a vise to compress flat spots at those nodes.
Sand the flat spots and thermal glue the leds to 'em.
Then hook up your slow pump if you wish.
But, since you are already burning energy to produce the excess heat why not use that heat to move the water.
Google "thermal siphon".
Designed one of these for a 400 Watt unit.
Then realized that 400 Watts was overkill for my purposes and scaled it down to 150W.
That eliminated any need for the complexity and expense of water-cooling.
I get by on a cake pan with a single fan now.
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But, I really wanted to build my kick-ass, water-cooled, monster just for the coolness factor.
Hence my vicarious interest in yours. :)
So, how can I he'p?
Weeze
LedElk
03-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Okay, as this forum has been down for maintenance and I'm on my way out the door, this will only be a short reply!
low_rdr: You've got an awesome project going on there! Sounds like you're plan is to make "kits" for big grow-room, right? That would be a cool thing to design.. I'm curious as to what you're planning to "use" the excess heat from the LEDs for... And what do you mean by "sealed environment"? like underground? :cool:
The voltage on my LEDs are as follows, 460=14V, 623=9V and 660=10,5V
It should be possible to cram those in to two transformers, but that's just what the math says. (If i'm not wrong).
I don't have a circuit-board, as I will be mounting the leds on the brass caps you see in my first post and soldering the wires onto the stars. (If you're not talking about the stars, themselves)
And the plan for the transformers was to place them outside of the cab.
Weezard: I was afraid I'd need a torch and all that... would a pen-torch work or do I have to buy a "real" one?
I just googled the copper supply line, and that would probably be an easier way to do things:) I didn't know such a thing existed. I'll check it out and calculate cost and all... I also got some copper Ts in mind, that I know they have at the store, so next week, things will be happening.
Oh, and I have actually got two professional copper heat exchangers... (don't laugh) I thought they were overkill, that's why i didn't decide on them. They're called "doucette suction line 1/1,5 heat exchanger" and they're meant for gas I think. Big tube with small coil inside for reversely flowing-coolant agent, if I got that right. But that would mean an extra water loop, right? I'm very stressed on time right now, so I can't think too much about this!
Thermal siphoning was an option! I didn't know if it would work, but in a vertical rig, the hot water at the bottom of the rig (at the LEDs) HAD to flow up to the top, cool, and fall back down.
Is that lamp 150w? I think I have over-estimated the heat-issue with these LEDs:D But, that's a good thing. next time I'll do something like you did there. You've helped plenty already, weezard, just check in once in a while and I'll be posting every step on the way!
Now, I'm desperately late! Got to go!
Back in a couple of days, thanks so far guys:cool:
Weezard
03-23-2013, 09:55 PM
Oops!
Did I say 150 Watts?
That's my 70 Watt unit.
I blame the meds.
The 150W. array has a honkin' big heatsink.
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Sorry for any misdirection.
Aloha,
Weeze
Mal420xl
03-24-2013, 04:01 PM
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awesome sunset/sunrise? in the background
LedElk
03-27-2013, 07:57 PM
Wow, that's a big fan. The heat doesn't stand a chance in that airstream, I bet. Is that 15w you got there? I was out to get those from mouser but it seems they're off the shelves.
But! I got the Ts from the plumber-store today and did my first soldering! Also, I've decided to buy new pipes in the right dimension. Been a hassle tryng to fit stuff on the old pipes, so I had to make a decision to either stick with the water-rig and do it right even though it's not saving me any money, or giving up and going for the fan/heatsink-deal.
I'll be checking for leaks before mounting but if you can tell the soldering isn't good, let me know.
Yeah, nice habitat man:cool:
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Weezard
03-27-2013, 08:56 PM
Yep, them's the elusive 15W. emitters.
The fan is over-sized so that I can under-drive it.
They run quieter and last longer that way.
The dimmers ran too hot for my taste so pulled them from their cases and mounted them under the shroud.
290514290515 I run the 12V fan on ~9V and have it on a thermal switch.
(No point running it on a cool sink.)
When I have the reds turned down the fan does not even kick on.
Solder?
Good work!
You've done this before, yah?
Actually, on closer inspection, those soldered joints look a li'l too good.
I don't see the marks of soldering paste.
Acid flux is usually pretty messy.
Did you scrub 'em up a little, post soldering?
While it's possible to sweat solder without flux, it can turn a small job into a career. :)
And even if I could blow your photos up big enough to see pinholes.
The ones you see are not necessarily the ones that leak.
When you get it pieced together, jam a rubber hose in one end, seal the other, dunk it in the bathtub and blow in the hose.
No bubbles? Power it up. :)
I'm liking it more alla time. :D
Aloha,
Weeze
Burnt Toast
03-27-2013, 09:42 PM
Wow, that's a big fan. The heat doesn't stand a chance in that airstream, I bet. Is that 15w you got there? I was out to get those from mouser but it seems they're off the shelves.
But! I got the Ts from the plumber-store today and did my first soldering! Also, I've decided to buy new pipes in the right dimension. Been a hassle tryng to fit stuff on the old pipes, so I had to make a decision to either stick with the water-rig and do it right even though it's not saving me any money, or giving up and going for the fan/heatsink-deal.
I'll be checking for leaks before mounting but if you can tell the soldering isn't good, let me know.
290512290513 Soldering tip: Whenever you finish soldering each joint, grab a rag and a bottle of vinegar and clean up each solder joint to remove any residual flux left (process is known in the plumbing field as "pickle-ing the joints"). The vinegar serves to neutralize the acids contained in the flux. Any residual flux left behind will eventually turn green (sign of corrosion on copper piping which can lead to leaks ).
LedElk
03-27-2013, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the tip, burnt toast, I've got lots of soldering ahead, too.
This is indeed my first time soldering like this, weezard, so I don't really know how it's done. BUT, I remembered you mentioning "acid flux" when soldering, so when the guy at the plumber-store said I should use "solder-grease" (translated from my language) and to "wash your hands afterwards, because it etches" (I didn't touch it) I assumed it was the acid flux he was talking about. This stuff I smeared on the small piece of pipe between the T and the cap. You can see the piece of pipe on the first pic in my last post, and it's inside the T and the cap when mounted.
Was I supposed to put the flux on the outside of the joint, as well? I tried to consult youtube on this, but the flux part wasn't that emphasized.
Aslo: I have this cpu-heatsink to serve as the second lamp (blue-lamp) but how many LEDs can I mount on it? I was thinking 2 x 10w blue and 1 x 10w red, but if I could put one more red on it (40w total), I could power that lamp alone with one of the Meanwells instead of wiring an LED on the "rig" in series with the 3 LEDs on the cpu-heatsink.
I'll be rigging fans soon too, so I'll be looking for a heat switch! It's a simple mechanical device, right?
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Weezard
03-28-2013, 01:12 AM
I can answer that one.
Did one of dem for phototropism and stretch experiments a ways back;
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It will handle 3 5W. stars without breaking a sweat.
That's a stainless steel cat watering bowl.
I have tried to drill stainless before.
That's why the wires exit via the rim on this one. :)
With 3 5W. blues I can leave the fan off and it runs about 95° F.
I have used an old liquid-transfer heat-sink that claimed to use sodium metal as the fluid.
I'm gonna cut it open one 4th of July and find out. :D
Really enjoyin' watching this build.
When you get serious about something, you have skills.
But then all my best projects started by getting ripped to the tits and mucking about with "pipe dreams".
If the idea has merit the next morning, I start drawing up plans.
Tickles me to see you doing similar.
:cool:
Aloha,
Weeze
unforgiven3x
03-28-2013, 01:58 AM
hey ledelk, the sweating doesn't look too bad at all. but when using a piece of copper as a union like you need to between the t's n' caps it is best to have some of that piece visible. even 1/4" would suffice. as it is noone can say visually whether the joint is sound or not. and as was said by low_ryder, "don't half ass it". electricity and water is no joke.
when sweating copper, yes you do need to apply flux to both surfaces after you have cleaned them.
ummmm here..... found it for ya, simple how to: How to Sweat Copper Pipe - Sweating Copper Pipe Joints - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/skills/4213319)
at least he has pictures for ya too, lol. sometimes it helps alot. fine sandpaper will work for cleaning the outside of yer pipes.
also, the last couple days its been buggin me about expansion of water in the pipes when it is heated. mebbe overthinkin on it, but a relief valve? what temps might this get to?
hope it helps ya buddy!!
LedElk
04-17-2013, 07:25 PM
UPDATE-TIME
Okay, first of all I'd like to apologize for the silence these past few weeks, but you know easter and all knocked me off track. BUT I have done some work. There has been a lot of soldering going on, and I was very close to giving up the whole project (again) and even though it has been an expensive and outrageously unnecessary heatsink for a few LEDs, I'm still determined to complete it. Just for the sake of accomplishment, if nothing else.
Here it is:
290777
Ironically, I had to replace every piece of pipe from the original rig with new ones, as they were an outdated dimension and did not fit new parts. Keeping the cost down by reusing old materials was one of the cornerstones of this whole project :D
Well, what you can see here is basically a square. Three sides of which contains the mounting surfaces for 6x10w LEDs and the last side an aquarium pump and the "radiator". Also, there is a small 5mm pipe I was going to use as a "safety valve" as suggested by unforgiven3x. Exactly how that's going to work, I don't know right now.
I received two thermal switches in the mail. one was 45 and the other 55 celsius. I'll be wiring LEDs soon and I'll be needing all the help I can get on that one. Thermal epoxy, btw.
Okay, that's all for now!
Weezard
04-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Howzit, Rube?
Sweet!:smokin:
Not sure what you plan to do with the safety sprig either. :)
Perhaps a small cork? Balloon? Open vertical column?
I'd go with the open column and drop a meat thermometer into it.
The switches are easy.
Assuming they are N.O., (normally open)
Wire them in-series with the fan.
Just cut one wire to the fan, and tie those cut ends to the switch.
Glue the switch on just after the last led in line.
When the water reaches 55 Celsius, the fan will start.
From the looks of it, that will take a while.
Got a lot of copper to heat.
What does that pup weigh dry?
Bubbling with ideas, but trying to wait to see how you deal with the details.
Aloha, and Good job!
Weezard
LedElk
04-17-2013, 09:06 PM
Hey, weezard! Glad to hear from you again, buddy. I don't have a scale where I'm at (my house), but I estimate the rig dry is about 3.3lbs.
I was thinking the same thing on the small pipe. balloon, plug or vertical outlet. The vertical outlet I put on hold as the pressure, while not high, might still push water out the pipe, right...? I have a lot of plastic tubing to go on the pipe, though. I don't know exactly know how that would work with no air-intake and all... Might be a possibility. Now, that I'm thinking about it a balloon might be the thing. It might inflate a little, but it should stay small, right? Hm, hard to imagine how this works... With a finite amount of matter inside a closed space... The vertical outlet idea should work like when you put a straw into the coke bottle and pull it out with your finger on the air-end, though... but, maybe the pressure pushes the water out and lets air in and starts a siphoning-cycle, emptying the whole thing... I have no idea. What do you mean by "meat-thermometer" btw? didn't see that part before writing this paragraph.
Initially, I thought you meant the temp-switch would be a safety device, shutting down the whole thing if it had to... It's normally open, btw. But I would rather have it work like you described in your last post. Like you said, I assume the copper would be able to dissipate enough heat to work passively for some time (if that's what you meant). I should have ordered double and used both functions! I have been dreading the constant humming from the fan and pump, but your idea for the heat-switch would take care of that.
Water doesn't expand a lot before boiling point, if I got it right, so ~50 celsius is no problem, pressure-wise.
EDIT: I need more air in my posts
LedElk
04-23-2013, 11:18 PM
I'm pretty much done right now, but I'l have to post the pics and description tomorrow, cause it's late and I'm tired. Only thing worrying me is the height of my grow-cab... The LEDs are real bright and they seem to bleach the lower leaves of the plants. And that's only with half the lights (2x10w blue + 2x10w red) going for about half a day. I did re-pot before putting them under the LEDs, so I hope it has something to do with the soil or stress or whatever...
I think there's about 2.3 feet floor to ceiling. Doesn't leave much room for pots and stems if the light should be 18" above, as I've just read some places.
LedElk
04-24-2013, 03:26 PM
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It is done:cool:
I just fired it up and the light is very bright!! I was just staring at the cab and thinking for a while when suddenly I noticed the light didn't seem so red anymore... I turned around and everything was green:D My eyes had adjusted to "epic red"...
Wonder if the room is too small... I know it is, but HOW MUCH too small is the question.. I can knock down the wall separating the bloom from the veg but I won't gain any height, which is the critical issue.
But so far I'm really happy with how this thing turned out! Thanks again for all the help guys, I would've electrocuted myself and burned the neighbourhood down TWICE without your tips and advice:thumbsup:
Now, let's see if the 45'C thermal switch kicks in... Shades on:cool:
Weezard
04-24-2013, 07:25 PM
Superior!
Kind of like building a boat in the basement though.
(How to get it out). :)
Hmmm,
The way it stands, you have two clear options.
Raise the roof, or lower the floor.
Of course, you could dim the light, but that's just crazy talk. :D
Seriously.
Any way you can pop the top and add some sides?
If not, mo' betta bite the bullet.
Abandon that cabinet and upgrade to adequate..
What say you?
Aloha,
Weeze
LedElk
04-24-2013, 08:46 PM
I'll take that bullet, thank you.
Gonna keep me eye out for a new cab. I've got some ideas. It'll take some work preparing it, though.. Had the old one lined with drywall. I would like the new one that way too.
Updates will be delivered, so stay tuned!
P.S The rig has been going all day (it's 22.40 here now) and I think the thermal switch is about to set off the pump. It should work great. The cpu-lamp has no issues with temp thus far.
LedElk
04-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Just a small update on how things are holding up:
They're holding up great! The pump kicks in about every 2-3 hours and runs for about 5 seconds:D Doesn't take much to cool it back down. In the distant future I could add some leds to this. I wonder if soldering the pipes with the leds still attached is totally out of the question or just a very bad idea... hm...
Still no new cab, though. The plants are actually doing pretty good for now, and I am thinking a very tight scrog could work...?
LedElk
05-06-2013, 06:30 PM
Major malfunctions in elktown!
I just returned from a 5-day trip and the "pipe-light" is out... I checked the drivers, but they're ok. The LEDs glow a tiny amount when powered.
I also checked the thermal switch/pump circuit and they work fine as well...
Next thing I guess is to test the LED-string and exclude one led after another until I find the ones that are burnt out or whatever.
My girlfriend has been watching the place and she casually mentioned something about the fire-alarm (on top of the cab) going off this morning... WHAT!?
I hope the circuit stops when one LED fries and the rest are good.
Need some help on this one!
Plants are fine, btw. Pulled a male, so down to 4.
Weezard
05-06-2013, 07:12 PM
Major malfunctions in elktown!
I just returned from a 5-day trip and the "pipe-light" is out... I checked the drivers, but they're ok. The LEDs glow a tiny amount when powered.
I also checked the thermal switch/pump circuit and they work fine as well...
Next thing I guess is to test the LED-string and exclude one led after another until I find the ones that are burnt out or whatever.
My girlfriend has been watching the place and she casually mentioned something about the fire-alarm (on top of the cab) going off this morning... WHAT!?
I hope the circuit stops when one LED fries and the rest are good.
Need some help on this one!
Plants are fine, btw. Pulled a male, so down to 4.
I doubt if it's the leds.
There would be no glow at all if one is open.
If one shorts though, it will drop resistance in that string and overwork the driver.
About the only way you can have a low glow is for one led to pop and leak current, essentially, become a resistor.
That would be very rare.
The smoke alarm beep suggests that a driver is hosed.
When a driver dies, it's not unusual to show some leakage current.
So, if all leds glow with the same intensity, or lack thereof, it's a fried driver.
All decent drivers have a thermal shutdown as well.
Have you let it cool down and tried to restart?
If it is the driver.
Thermal glue the new driver to a heatsink to prevent recurrence.
That and overspec it to run it cooler.
An innovator's path is strewn with hazards.
Dragons to be slain.
Tilting windmills is great fun.
But does involve some pain.
Aloha,
Weezad
LedElk
05-06-2013, 09:58 PM
Good call, weez. I ran off to try the drivers again and now it's back to normal!
I have no idea why the drivers seemed to work when I wrote the last post.. Might have tried the same driver twice for all I know:stoned:
I've still got thermal adhesive and aluminium. I hope it'll do the trick without a fan. It's been running for days now with no issues until this..
anyway, the red blaze is back:cool:
Cheers, mate!
LedElk
05-07-2013, 10:45 AM
Problems are back...
I waited for the lights to turn on at 12:00 but only the purple light lit.
So I checked the driver for the red light on the purple light and vice versa. Both drivers work on the purple light, but no drivers work on the red light.
How can this be?
It still glows dim when I switch it on.
The Leds on the red lamp:
3x10w 625nm @ 9 V
2x10w 660nm @ 10,5 V
The driver is meanwell LPC-35-700
700mA and 9-48V
When I bought the driver I thought it was 9-50V, so with a total voltage of 48 on the LEDs I thought I was within range.
Could this be the problem?
Why would it stop working NOW? And with both drivers...?
LedElk
05-07-2013, 11:44 AM
I think I found the problem. The driver-to-LED cord was simply too long to carry enough power!
I shortened it from about 5 feet to 2 and things are back to normal.
Weezard
05-07-2013, 07:33 PM
That sounds dicey, brah.
Unless you were using smaller than 20ga. wire, it's not the whole problem.
Grab you meter and measure across each emitter.
It sounds like the regulator is dropping out for lack of headroom.
That 48V. rating on the regulator is the maximum voltage, not the operating voltage.
It needs a couple volts of headroom to do it's thing.
You are asking it to regulate current without giving it enough "wiggle-room" do so.
And, the voltage drop across the junctions will creep as your emitters "burn in" for the first few months.
It's only a tiny amount but it is multiplied by the number of emitters.
LEDs are non-linear devices.
A very small change in juction voltage creates a relatively large change in current, yah?
So, this will get worse with time.
If you operate this puppy on the ragged edge of functionality, you are "standing into danger".:microwave:
Since these are current regulators, there's a simple test as well.
With the original supply cable, and the unit mis-functioning, just turn it off and clip a jumper across one emitter.
If she comes right back on line through several on-off cycles you have identified the problem.
You will need to get a third regulator and add that 5th led to a new string of reds.
If it were mine I'd do 4 X 625nm. for 36V.
And a new string for 4 X 660nm. for 42 V.
The regulators will then be re liable and will last a heck of a lot longer too.
Bottom line for good design?
Run cool and leave plenty headroom.
Aloha,
Weeze
LedElk
05-08-2013, 03:20 PM
So you're saying I should get more light? :cool:
Hm, guess I just bought myself some time with the shortening of the cord then... There is an LED store in town actually. Probably alot more expensive than mouser, but I'll pop in and see if they've got drivers and leds or just commercial led bulbs.
As I stated previously I thought the max V was 50. But I guess I was pushing it, anyways. well, lesson learned. I've got room for one more LED on the pipe-rig and making another heatsink for a couple of LEDs should not be a problem. I'll knock down the veg-chamber and expand sideways.
The plants are loving the glow btw! It doesn't seem to be a problem with the lights being too close, at all. I've got room to raise them, too. But here I go pushing the limits again...:D
Well, thanks for the info, weezard!
I'll be back with an update
Weezard
05-08-2013, 08:11 PM
Raise the bridge?
Or lower the water?
Jumping out one red led would work too, without added expense.
And would still be enough light for that small vegging cabinet.
I just figured that you will be flowering with this light and could make use of the extra photons.
Something to keep in mind.
It's very easy to overwater with leds.
Less heat translates to lower transpiration.
They sweat less, they need less.
Just thought I'd mention that because I messed up my first 'lings under leds.
Tried to treat them like HPS'ers.
Drowned them, I did.
It was not pretty. :(
Aloha,
Weeze
LedElk
05-08-2013, 08:39 PM
I am actually flowering almost from the get go. This is really more of a test run as I'm new to growing and there's just enough time before going on vacation to run a quick scramble.
So what you're saying about removing an led seems a little tempting, actually. And go for more light later.. I'll be doing lots of reading on growing styles and mediums for next time as well.
As for drivers, I was looking around and mouser seems to have only two 700mA drivers.. Could I use a 1000mA?
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LedElk
05-08-2013, 08:57 PM
I tried editing this into my last post but the time limit beat me, once again:thumbsup:
About the water, I don't have any experience with HPS, but I did notice a drop in evaporation going from CFL to LED. Probably not as much, tho. I've adjusted to a relaxed watering schedule:cool:
Weezard
05-08-2013, 08:59 PM
Depends on the leds.
If 1 amp is I-Max, then no!
Hmm, wait a monkey!
You have water cooling.
That's a game changer.
Might actually get away with it, but efficiency will suffer.
As you increase the current to near maximum, efficacy drops off rapidly.
It translates to less actual photons per watt.
That, and it's a calculated risk.
LEDs can become slag in microseconds.
Once that magic smoke gets out, C'est finis, yah?
Your call.
But I'd go with more photons every time. :)
This is almost as much fun as building another array. :D
Mahalo,
Weeze
LedElk
05-09-2013, 03:16 PM
I just checked and I-max is indeed at 1A.
No need to risk more problems, right? I'll probably re-route one of the LEDs to a third 35w driver. That makes room for 30w extra worth of LEDs:)
Weezard
05-09-2013, 06:45 PM
I just checked and I-max is indeed at 1A.
No need to risk more problems, right? I'll probably re-route one of the LEDs to a third 35w driver. That makes room for 30w extra worth of LEDs:)
Quite right!
There's some interpretation needed with the spec. sheets.
If you read them carefully, you will find some interesting gotchas.
Fer instance, it may not be possible on some emitters to even sneak up on I-max.
The nominal junction drop is is just that, nominal.
There's plenty of wiggle room around that target voltage and the actual voltage drop will vary with the emitters, and over time.
I measured all my emitter drops and designed for the weakest link.
Current regulator regulate current by adjusting the voltage applied to your load.
Here's the fun part:
I might not be possible to drive some emitters to I-max, because doing so would exceed V-max.
My 15 Watt leds have an I-max of 1.5A.
That's 10 Volts to keep the math happy.
One of my emitters was hitting 10V. across the junction at 1.4A.
So, I locked 'em all down at ~1.2 Amps.
That seems to be the "sweet spot" for photon efficacy.
My 150 Watt array became a 120 Watt array.
Driving it "balls to the wall" would take another 25% in power.
But would deliver less than 10% more photons.
And it would drastically reduce the useful life of the assembly.
Why am I bothering you with this?
"That makes room for 30w extra worth of LEDs"
No headroom!
Max Headroom says, "ya gotta have it."
So, maybe another 25W. yah? :)
Meanwhile, your plants are looking good.
Aloha,
Weeze
LedElk
05-11-2013, 12:05 AM
For sure, Max Headroom would be frowning hard if he came here:D I need to listen more to Max, cause he's right.
But, seriously. you got dimmable drivers or what? I'm counting on my newbie-drivers to feed the LEDs what they need, maybe sometime in the future I'll be adjusting drivers but that's a few steps ahead of me just yet:)
One question though, what happens if the LEDs aren't getting the V they need? I don't really have a grasp of how this works, you know, but would a lack of V restrict the "uptake" of A's and vice versa?
If you meant that setting your driver to 1.2A would give the LEDs <10V (V-max)?
And I'm a little curious on life-expectancy of these LEDs. I hope they last a while, but I guess it depends on giving them the right conditions.
The plants are loving the lights, definitely. As I've said I don't have much experience with growing, but I'm sure a green plant growing fast is a happy plant:)
And by all means bother me with technical posts, I'm trying to understand them and learning is the by-product:)
Weezard
05-11-2013, 01:43 AM
Be happy to help.
Ohm's law is the most important, basic law of electricity. It defines the relationship between the three fundamental electrical quantities: current,voltage, and resistance. When a voltage is applied to a circuit containing only resistive elements (i.e. no coils), current flows according to Ohm's Law, which is shown below.
I = V / R
Where:
I =
Electrical Current (Amperes)
V =
Voltage (Voltage)
R =
Resistance (Ohms)
Ohm's law states that the electrical current (I) flowing in an circuit is proportional to the voltage (V) and inversely proportional to the resistance (R). Therefore, if the voltage is increased, the current will increase provided the resistance of the circuit does not change. Similarly, increasing the resistance of the circuit will lower the current flow if the voltage is not changed. The formula can be reorganized so that the relationship can easily be seen for all of the three variables.
Using this simple formula I trick a dirt cheap 3 terminal voltage regulator into regulating the current for my emitters.
I tie a 1 ohm 10W. resistor to the regulator's output pin and draw current through it to the leds.
Then I tie the sense lead of the regulator to the other end of the resistor.
That sense lead, often labeled adj ,is used to set the output voltage and is ordinarily tied to a potentiometer to vary the out put voltage.
Because of it's internal construction it needs 1.4V. on the sense lead to start regulating.
So, it will try to change it's output voltage to keep the math happy.
As we draw more current the voltage across that resistor will try to climb.
The chip will throttle it's output to keep it from doing so.
So, my "driver" is a 40 cent regulator and a 10 cent resistor that regulates current flow of up to 1.5A.
If you need to control higher current you could splurge and spend 2 bucks on a Mosfet and 2 more resistors to hang off the end.
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For power, it's:
Watts equals voltage times current. W = VA in a purely resistive circuit
So if we drop 2 volts across the regulator and draw 1.2 amps through it, it will have to dissipate 2.4W. (Won't even need a heat sink)
And the resistor will be a little over 1 ohm at the same current. so ~ 1.3 Watts.
Why do I use a 10W.?
Headroom!
Resistance increases with temperature and we want a cool and stable supply.
I strap the regulator to a heatsink for the same reason.
The cooler your electronics run, the longer they will live.
That's is why we overspec drivers too. If you want to drive 40 Watts worth of emitters, it's best to use a 50-60 Watt driver.
Same reason you should never try to draw more than 80 amps from a 100 amp service panel.
It's foolhardy to load any electrical circuit to 100% of it's capacity.
A very tiny voltage spike can cost you the whole game.
If you google ohm's law you will get a much clearer explanation.
I'm just a talented amateur at electronics, and not very good at teaching.
Aloha,
Weeze
Shovelhandle
05-11-2013, 12:32 PM
Good job, Weezard! I am an old electrician/technician.
As you explained, If your fuse or circuit breaker is rated to 'blow' or 'trip' at a given value you wouldn't want to be too close to that value when sizing your circuit. Otherwise the circuit breaker may open inconveniently. 80% is the maximum value you want to put on any fuse/breaker.
Shovelhandle
05-11-2013, 09:32 PM
retired local 300 Vermont ibew, Weezard
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