The resurection is the key!

[Razer]

Hello fellow hopheads. I hope you all are not too intolerant to hear from a Christian. I am not a Christian because I live some high moral standard, but because I am a sinner who has accepted the grace of Christ to have a relationship with the God of all creation.

I am not pushing my view on anyone, but am always happy to discuss the reasons for my faith.

Keep your hate comments to yourself. I am a friendly and caring guy who loves God, family, country, and a little weed. :cool:

[Razer]

Today is Easter. It is not about rabbits and eggs, but about the central point of Christianity which is the death (sacrifice of Christ) and His resurection. This very event is the hope of all the faithful that we will be resurected unto glory with Him.

The fact that Christianity is exclusive does not change the validity of its historical evidence. No need to be mad at me. I am not the one letting any in or keeping them out.... I am just a believer is all. :cool:

[Lepp]

I don't know what to believe, but I hate people as religous as you. It bothers me, it's like your trying to save my soul.

I've already written my ideas on religon down three or four times, and I just don't want to do it again.

So in short, the bible is 99.9% shit, but we should be like Christ said. Everyone's so fucking caught up in his death.


"I guess I'm not Christian, I believe in what Jesus said."

[Razer]

Didn't I mention, keep your hate comments to yourself. Why can't you let me have my faith? Why does it threaten you? :cool:

[Razer]

oh, I almost forgot, what is it that jesus said that you do believe? Did you know that your assertion about the 99% was not a view shared by Jesus? And, unless you are just railing because I said I was Christian, what is it that I wrote that makes you think that I am trying to save your soul? :cool:

[NowhereMan]

well i cant say im very religious
i answer to my conscious (cant say i believe in god)
i do know there is good and evil

i do know something other than me is OUT THERE
being ? omni-important entity ?
im just a man i have no clue
i really dont give a shit if they are
or are not.

just becuse its ina book

that dont mean there is a god and was a jesus who did what was told in the big book of MISTUNDERSTOOD words we call the bible.


my mom was sunday school teacher i do know alot about religion
i just dont have any fiath in supreme commanders
who seem to ignore the lil suffering peons he has created >?
get my piont
im synical i guess
maybe hell will burn my soul
maybe i find redeption in time?
maybe just fuk.n maybe
one day ill sleep the big sleep and not wake to anything EVER
no pian no worries no nothing but bliss
or nothing at all
we will all chose and we will all lose
peace

[Razer]

Hey NowhereMan, sounds like honest comments. I don't mind hearing where others are coming from. I wasn't born believing what I do today. I used to argue against the existence of God (like other more noteable apologists such as C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell.)

Now it is not uncommon for me to field characterizations like 'closed minded' and 'intollerant'. It's laughable really. I find nearly without exception find that the antagonists are generally the closed minded and intollerant ones. I did not make up the faith, I just subscribe to it.

Which brings up one last important point. "Christian" means a myriad of things to a myriad of people. To me it means, I believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is, God Himself. I can assure you of this though; I am no simpleton. I do not have a 'blind' faith. I can hold an itellectual debate on the evidence of my faith and...

"...I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Tim 1:12 :cool:

[psychocat]

I think if you want to follow you become religious ,if you want to lead you become political,if you want to be yourself you do neither.

[Razer]

I am more myself than anyone. Not to mention, things are more like they are now than they have ever been. :cool:

[wasscookin]

Hello fellow hopheads. I hope you all are not too intolerant to hear from a Christian. I am not a Christian because I live some high moral standard, but because I am a sinner who has accepted the grace of Christ to have a relationship with the God of all creation.

I am not pushing my view on anyone, but am always happy to discuss the reasons for my faith.

Keep your hate comments to yourself. I am a friendly and caring guy who loves God, family, country, and a little weed. :cool:
Hey, its all good! While I do not consider myself a Christian, i do believe every religion has something worthwhile to teach humanity. As long as the end result is in faith, love and tolenance, then go in peace!

[Razer]

Nice, wasscookin. I was hoping to hear others opinions (like yours), instead of the usual bashings and rantings that are bantered about when someone stands up for their faith in Christ. I am willing to listen to and discuss others beliefs as well as discuss or defend my own. I have not put down others beliefs, but I think often people are put off by the exclusive nature of Christianity. It was not me who said....

..."I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)

I just believe the guy who said it! :cool:

[psychocat]

Nice, wasscookin. I was hoping to hear others opinions (like yours), instead of the usual bashings and rantings that are bantered about when someone stands up for their faith in Christ. I am willing to listen to and discuss others beliefs as well as discuss or defend my own. I have not put down others beliefs, but I think often people are put off by the exclusive nature of Christianity. It was not me who said....

..."I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)

I just believe the guy who said it! :cool:


You find elitists (we are the chosen) in all guises,I don't believe that anyone who thinks they know it all can be open to any other influence.
The idea of it's written in a "holy" scripture therefore it must be right is a bit too much to swallow,there is an arrogance about any religion that says if you don't follow then you will suffer.Carrot and stick psychology at it's most basic.
Tyrany at its worst.

[Razer]

It is a mistake of simplification to dismiss all religions based on the fact that most adherents feel that there way is the only way. If you listed 10,000 different faiths, sects, religions, etc. and they were all mutually exclusive, then it does not follow logically that they must all be wrong. It is possible for one to be right, no matter how unpopular the idea may be. Christianity is supported by mountains of objective and verifiable evidences and is not a blind leap of faith. "Holy" is just a term of respect for the writings esteemed by beleivers. I did not make the claims found in Scripture, I simply believe them.

I find it way more Arrogant for a person to dismiss out of hand the claims of the bible because of their negative predisposition to religion in general. How much time did you spend in study and contemplation before you decided that God can't be who he claims to be in the Bible? What was the clincher?

I used to argue against the existence of God also, but after taking the time to examine the claims, I am intellectualy compelled to except the overwhelming proofs.

So, are you just another on railing against religion and Christian's in particular or do you have an actual point of contention? :cool:

[Razer]

Furthermore, when you approach a subject with preconcieved conclusions, then you are all but bound to be wrong. A person of intelectual integrity should atleast admit their biases, especially when they have nothing to offer in debate?

Your position, although hard to pinpoint since you made no point except to reveal your bias, is clearly the usual tired rantings of those who won't face the evidence, probably due to the accountablitly that comes with it.

[Lulu]

Wow babe, slow down and take a breath :)

Alot of people have been left with negative feelings on church and religion. So many horrendous atrocities have been commited in the name of God and religion. I was born into a very Roman Catholic family but I can't in good conscience be part of a church that promotes homophobia and has in it's very recent passed shielded and hidden abusers in it's midst. "Suffer little children to come onto me..." Ireland is full of those little children and until this passed year the church refused to hand over records. Where's the love and humanity there?

In my mind religion and the church have very little to do with my God.

[maryjanemama]

Wow babe, slow down and take a breath :)

Alot of people have been left with negative feelings on church and religion. So many horrendous atrocities have been commited in the name of God and religion. I was born into a very Roman Catholic family but I can't in good conscience be part of a church that promotes homophobia and has in it's very recent passed shielded and hidden abusers in it's midst. "Suffer little children to come onto me..." Ireland is full of those little children and until this passed year the church refused to hand over records. Where's the love and humanity there?

In my mind religion and the church have very little to do with my God.
Lulu, as a child growing up as a Roman Catholic, I know where you're coming from. As for being a Roman Catholic growing up in Ireland, I can't imagine. My good friend Catherine is from Dublin and I've heard some horror stories about her own family and the atrocities of the church.

I couldn't live by the arcaic rules as far back as childhood. When I was 10, I refused to get on the bus to go to Catholic school on the first day of the 5th grade. That was the end for me. I also have not been to mass or confession since I was 12 or 13.

As far as I'm concerned, I can't believe in a God that doesn't love EVERYONE. Also, in my area, the Roman Catholic churches are more about how much a member puts in the collection box than anything else. And just say the name Sister Patricia Marie to anyone who went to the same school as me, and I'm sure chills will run up their spine! Last, but not least, I also do not understand why women in the Catholic church do not hold the status as the men. I could be a sister and serve God my whole life, but never lead a mass as a priest, bishop, etc.

[Daisy420]

Wow babe, slow down and take a breath :)

Alot of people have been left with negative feelings on church and religion. So many horrendous atrocities have been commited in the name of God and religion. I was born into a very Roman Catholic family but I can't in good conscience be part of a church that promotes homophobia and has in it's very recent passed shielded and hidden abusers in it's midst. "Suffer little children to come onto me..." Ireland is full of those little children and until this passed year the church refused to hand over records. Where's the love and humanity there?

In my mind religion and the church have very little to do with my God.
well said lulu , i can agree with wot you are saying and razor , i'm not having a go , but you ARE inflicting your opinions on to people , you have faith in wotever you belive in( fair enough) but don't force it down ours necks , please . Each to there own ok . Peace . :eek:

[Razer]

You people amaze me! How am I pushing anything down anyones neck. I am simply sharing my perspective. Nobody suggested that you get in line. Talk about homophobes, what about Christian-a-phobes. Give me a break. It would be one thing if you had a point to make, but I keep hearing the same emotional dribble. Atrocities are commited in and out of the church. Guess why? There are people inside and out. That is just another worn out guilt by association error. It is a classic logical fallacy, not that I want to confuse anyone with academia. If you don't believe as I do fine, but don't vilanize me or demonize the body of Christ. Many of you have such contorted views of what Chrisianity is about. I'm sure I won't be able to trump your personal stories, but atleast make a point that is of substance instead of character assinations. Have you ever heard of "knocking down straw men?" These endlessly rehashed typical retorts really don't mean anything. Atleast be honest with yourselves and admit that you are biased. Believe what you want, I am not attacking you for it. Just give me the space to express myself as well and respond to the attacks I did not invite.

Hey, LOOooooKie thar, thar go's annuder one of dem Bible thumper's....Let's git'm!!!!

HMMMmmmm, let me look into the future. More negative personal attack posts? Are the words to big too, maybe y'all decenters can get another linch party together if ya mention the big words.

Pardon me, if I am incensed by the personal nature of the responses. :cool:

I am sorry for anyone who has been traumatized by a church, but no more than when they are traumatized outside of it. I think we can all agree that abuse is wrong, wherever it may be found.

[psychocat]

Preconcieved conclusions??
Are you assuming I haven't looked into something before forming an opinion?, very CHRISTIAN of you.
Being an engineer I deal with logic all the time so if my logic was in some way flawed then surely I would not be able to do my job,I pride(one of the seven deadly sins) myself in being very good at what I do.I also pride myself in being able to spot a pompous ass when confronted by one.
This is precisely the sort of arrogance I was talking about,you seem to believe you know better than anyone who disagrees with you then you presume yourself to be more intelligent.
I was born and brought up as a Church of England protestant but have also spent time researching other faiths,I am not some pre-teen imbecile who has had no education.You presume far too much and propose something which belongs in the land of fables.I was at no point attacking your beliefs mearly stating my own opinion which I believe was your point in posing the question in the first place.If you don't like the answers you might get then don't ask. :rolleyes:

[Tech]

lol thats telling him.

[Daisy420]

so I'm a ' christian o phobe ' just coz i don't want YOUR belifes shoved down my neck....... hmmmm , sort it out mate and get off high horse. its just annoying.

[maryjanemama]

I think that some people confuse religion and spirituality. Sitting in a cathedral, looking at the huge stained glass...I never felt filled with love and enlightenment. I felt terrified! But then there are other times, mostly when smoking a joint and I look out over the hay fields and see horses and blue skies and nothing but hills and nature's beauty.... That's when I feel my spirit lifted and a sense of well being.

The idea of a "savior"? We can only save ourselves from ourselves. I also never understood what exactly I needed to be saved from, either. "Original sin", can someone explain that one? Am I being punished for being born?

[psychocat]

The idea of a "savior"? We can only save ourselves from ourselves. I also never understood what exactly I needed to be saved from, either. "Original sin", can someone explain that one? Am I being punished for being born?

Original sin -The consumption of forbidden fruit in the garden of eden.
Temptation brought about by eves seduction of adam to disobey gods rule.
The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons.
See I know what I'm talking about Razer.
Hope this helps Maryj.

It's the same as me kicking in your teeth for something your granny did,and that's supposed to be fair??
Don't think so.

[budda]

[/QUOTE]"Keep your hate comments to yourself." Razer

Why?? If someone wants to give you a hate comment then its their right to do that brother!

[Razer]

Psychocat, an effective use of the english language to express your thoughts more succinctly is hardly arrogance. Your continued personal attacks only bare out my earlier comments. Try discussing the issue instead of resorting to personal attack after attack. It's boring! Drone, drone, drone!!! So, you don't like me huh? Ouch!

Concerning the doctrine of Original Sin, I would agree with you that it is about the fruit incident in the garden. However, Scripture does not say you are guilty because adam sinned, but rather because people sin personally against their Creator. It is the sin nature passed from one generation to the next and the death that results from it.
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--" NASB Rom 5:12
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." NASB Rom 5:19

So, your beef is not with me but with Scripture. Also, I made no claim to be more intelligent, but I would not hesitate to say that my posts as relates to the personal attack type posts are hands down more itellectualy based.

Not that it does any good to explain to you, but the point I made on bringing preconceived conclusions is that if you exclude one of the possibilities out of hand then you can't rely on the conclusion since it is not knowledge but prejudice, exposed!

About being a Christian-a-phobe, that is a generalisation about people (definitely like you) who lash out at those expressing faith in the God of the Bible. You don't have to believe. I certainly didn't ask you to.

And, that brings up your other cronies, like Daisy420, can you take a deep breath and explain what you mean, what am I shoving down your throat. Others can post all they want that I am wrong, but I express my opinion and I am "shoving it down your throat." If the pot doesn't help you Daisy, then try valium. You're a little high strung, don't you think?

maryjanemama, although I am liking you better lately, I am puzzled by your response as well. Who mentioned anything about a church or stained windows. My belief is not dependent on the Pope, any prophet, or experience, but rather grounded in God's Word. If you are curious about what I believe on a topic, just ask and I will be glad to discuss it with you.

The thing that I can not tolerate, is to let all the bogus assertions go without challenge. :cool:

[Razer]

Budda,

oh nothing

[maryjanemama]

:confused: Razer, I said something about the stained glass windows, because when I was little they seemed enormous and I was scared. I was trying to convey how I felt during mass. Are you saying that you don't worship a single sect? Like you don't classify yourself as a Catholic, Lutheran, but as a Christian...right? I'm just trying to understand, that's all.

Religion is probably one of the things that I've been most confused about my entire life. When I try to express how I feel about it, alot of times I am talking about when I was a CHILD. As an adult, it just continues to baffle me and I have lots of questions. I still have no idea what original sin is, even though I've gotten 2 explanations. Please explain further if you have time.

:confused:

[Razer]

It seemed that you were making the point that "real" spirituality is not found in a church. I agree that being in church buildings doesn't bring you closer to God. But, being part of a Bible believing fellowship hardly makes you less likely to know Him. :cool:

PS I wrote you a note in community

[joker121]

I don't think I've ever met a christain that enjoys smoking the ganja. Bt then again, I don't know if online mettings qualify. Does your church group know about your herbal indulgences? What do they/ would they think?
Do you as a pot smoking christain support gays?

[psychocat]

Wind and piss is what we would call this where I come from.
I will once again say that it is YOU who has preconcieved opinions and not myself,I don't really care whether you are catholic,muslim or atheist,the point was that you believe yourself to have a superior knowledge whithout even knowing to what extent I have researched the subject I'm commenting on.
As for ORIGINAL sin it's like saying that the apple tree(adam+eve) is tainted and therefore all fruit from that tree(the human race) will also be tainted.
THE ORIGINAL SIN WAS PERPETRATED BY ADAM AND EVE,I thought you said you researched your info.
I don't have "a beef " with you or religion I just think you're both full of shit.
It's my opinion and I will excercise my GOD given right to express it. lol

[Razer]

Post what you like, as will I. You are just oblivious to any reasoning apparently. Look back in post #25 of this thread and you will see I agreed with you on what the original sin was. But, evidently the following point escaped you. According to the Bible, You and everyone else are guilty of your own sins not Adam's. Yes, sin was introduced into creation in the Garden, but apparently we all feel compelled to ratify its cause and effects through our own choices.

And... before you all line up to kill the messenger, I did not write the message. And whether I am an ass or not does not change what it says. So, if you are able to articulate sincere objections, then I would be glad to share my opinion and understanding, along with pointing out the evidence that compels me to believe the way I do.

If on the other hand you just want to join the lynch mob, as others have so eloquently put it, I can't stop you. Whoop yourselves into a feeding frenzy if you like. It won't make you any less ignorant though.

Psychocat, I am not opposed to you either, only the offensive way that you have approached the discussion. We don't have to be advesaries. Maryjanemama and I appeared at odds at first, but I think we have both relaxed significantly toward each other, once it left the personal nature. :cool:

[Razer]

I don't think I've ever met a christain that enjoys smoking the ganja. Bt then again, I don't know if online mettings qualify. Does your church group know about your herbal indulgences? What do they/ would they think?
Do you as a pot smoking christain support gays?

I thank God that my state of imperfection does not exclude me from receiving his grace in my life. I suppose pot smoking christians aren't real popular in either group. People, being the common denominator in both, are quick to tear down those who are not like them.

To be frank, no, others at the church do not know that I smoke. If they did, I am sure they would disaprove of the practice. They also don't know, when I lose my temper, or exceed the speed limit. The point here is that we are all sinners in varying degrees of rebellion. I am not ashamed of smoking, many know I am christian and smoke pot.

I am not suprised to hear all the negative comments when you find out that I believe the Bible. They killed Jesus for his revelations. It's just the normal background noise. But, for those who have questions, there are answers. Nobody says you have to believe, but shouldn't you atleast consider this thing that provokes such a base response from so many.

Do I support gays? Why do you ask? Are you Gay? Are you trying to make the extrapulation that since I smoke pot (apparently wrong in your mind) that therefore I should be excepting of other wrongs. Should I condone stealing since I smoke pot? Of, course not. Thinly veiled attempt to draw me into another rhetorical baseless argument. Does the Bible condemn homosexuality? Yes it does. Does it condemn homosexuals? Only in the same way that all sin is rejected by God, but he offers a solution to those interested.

I am not against homosexuals. I have known and liked several gay people, but that does not mean I have to like the act of homosexuality. It is more loving to tell someone the truth about the destructive nature of their behavior, than to bow to social pressure to accept it as the norm. I don't think that I know any Christian homosexuals, but I am sure there are many. Should they have to accept that I smoke pot since they are homosexual? Obviously, one does not follow the other in logic. Clearly a ploy of divisiveness.

Ultimatley, the issue of how Scripture handles any topic is not a function of whether I smoke pot or not. It is true or untrue on its own merits. :cool:

[Razer]

Just in case you are genuinely interested in what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.

http://www.equip.org/free/CP1307.pdf

Christ gave Himself to be the sacrifice for all of our transgressions.

[Razer]

Psychocat, does this sound familiar?

"You presume far too much and propose something which belongs in the land of fables.I was at no point attacking your beliefs mearly stating my own opinion..."

Summarlily categorizing my faith as a fable sounds like an attack to me. If you have some particular issue about the Bible, then lets discuss what you think. If you just plan to have a book burning party, then have at it, atleast we'll know where you're coming from.

[joker121]

Do I support gays? Why do you ask? Are you Gay? Are you trying to make the extrapulation that since I smoke pot (apparently wrong in your mind) that therefore I should be excepting of other wrongs.
I am actually bisexual, but I was wondering, more becasue prety much every christain and catholic that I know thinkls that gays are going to hell. You don't have to get defensive at all. I accept you for whatever you are, and whatever you believe.
You just seem to be an anomily amogst christains, and it fascinated me. Most that I know fit into a cookie cutter mold . You are actually a refreshing insight, into the possibilities of humanity, when they think for themselves. Please don't be offended, I mdon't mean to.
namaste.

[Daisy420]

Psychocat, an effective use of the english language to express your thoughts more succinctly is hardly arrogance. Your continued personal attacks only bare out my earlier comments. Try discussing the issue instead of resorting to personal attack after attack. It's boring! Drone, drone, drone!!! So, you don't like me huh? Ouch!

Concerning the doctrine of Original Sin, I would agree with you that it is about the fruit incident in the garden. However, Scripture does not say you are guilty because adam sinned, but rather because people sin personally against their Creator. It is the sin nature passed from one generation to the next and the death that results from it.
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--" NASB Rom 5:12
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." NASB Rom 5:19

So, your beef is not with me but with Scripture. Also, I made no claim to be more intelligent, but I would not hesitate to say that my posts as relates to the personal attack type posts are hands down more itellectualy based.

Not that it does any good to explain to you, but the point I made on bringing preconceived conclusions is that if you exclude one of the possibilities out of hand then you can't rely on the conclusion since it is not knowledge but prejudice, exposed!

About being a Christian-a-phobe, that is a generalisation about people (definitely like you) who lash out at those expressing faith in the God of the Bible. You don't have to believe. I certainly didn't ask you to.

And, that brings up your other cronies, like Daisy420, can you take a deep breath and explain what you mean, what am I shoving down your throat. Others can post all they want that I am wrong, but I express my opinion and I am "shoving it down your throat." If the pot doesn't help you Daisy, then try valium. You're a little high strung, don't you think?

maryjanemama, although I am liking you better lately, I am puzzled by your response as well. Who mentioned anything about a church or stained windows. My belief is not dependent on the Pope, any prophet, or experience, but rather grounded in God's Word. If you are curious about what I believe on a topic, just ask and I will be glad to discuss it with you.

The thing that I can not tolerate, is to let all the bogus assertions go without challenge. :cool:

oh dear , oh dear , have i upset you ?? suggesting vallium ? tut tut , and from a ' good ' christian like ur self...lol . i think you are highly strung mate . so i am a ' christian - o -phobe ' ? hmmm , really . you are talking out of ya arse on that bit , dont YOU think , like i said, belive in wot you want to , theres no law on that , but i still think that ,and yes you are , shoving your opinions down our throats. face the facts Razor , you the only one ' fighting ' here and you can quote all the bollocks in the world from the bible , i think people are finding you just plain boring now. i certainly do. :p

[psychocat]

Why should the contents of a book be so important?
If it could be proved where's the need for faith?
Why not believe in the Legend of King Arthur?
The Bible is a book and if you were making a film of it the synopses would run something like this.
You have your good guy (God)
you have your bad guy (Satan)
They have a big battle stretching over two thousand years.
God wins and Satan and all his followers are wiped out.
Hey man people will love it,we get Arnie to play God.
This sounds like the plot to thousands of books and films and why should the bible be any different,Its just not convincing enough for me to view it in any other way.Just to clarify a point which version of the bible are we actualy talking about??
I have absolutely no phobias I think all people are the same we can all be all things so I view Humanity as I view all things objectively.
Up to now I am simply not convinced that the bible is anything other than carrot and stick psychology wrapped up in a fantastic story, on a par with Aesops Fables.What can you bring to the table to make me think differently.
But remember I have pretty much heard everyones arguments before,
Catholic,Protestant,Jehovas and Mormons and a couple of lesser known groups as well.Up to now I still do not believe in God in fact I think it is the singular most divisive thing other than politics.
Remember this is a open forum and if you post here then you have to expect to recieve opinions from people who don't agree with yours,like I already said I don't really care what people think of me or my thoughts.
It is always interesting to get a different perspective but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.Free speech Free mind the way it should be.

[Razer]

Your tone has improved to civil and is much appreciated. I am all up for discussion if it really interests you. What new can I bring to the table? Well there are several facets of evidence. One is specific prophecy. Are you familiar with Ezekiel and his fortelling of Tyre's future (The trade capital of the ancient world, the most significant city at the time), even to this day? I will be happy to share the incontrovertible details with you if you like. It's just one of several such instances.

On the issue of what translation, I am not speaking of any particular one. But, I can assure you that several are reliable; including the KJB, NIV, NASB etc. The real issue is are any of them trustworthy. The evidence for the reliability of scripture is more sure than the writing's of Plato and the history of Alexander the Great. Here are a couple of articles that handle it in brief. More resources are available if anyone is interested. Critiques are welcome. Please though, don't waste your time or mine by making it personal. Make a point about something I have presented if you are sincere about the topic

Reliability of the Bible
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1000.pdf.

Reliability of the Bible manuscripts
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1001.pdf

How do we know that the Bible is the word of God?
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1012.pdf

If you have already made your mind up that there is no God, then I can talk until I'm blue in the face. However, if you are open, God left His calling card. :cool:

[Razer]

If you don't want what I think shoved down your throat, go to personal prefs and click ignore on me. That way you won't have to be troubled by my opinions. :cool:

[Razer]

Joker121, forgive me if I was hasty to defensive positions. I am sure you can see why I have felt attacked in previous posts.

My faith is the cornerstone of my reality. I am able and willing to defend it, but would rather share it with those interested. Your non-agressive approach is refreshing as well. I wouldn't let what people think of you (even those people who go to church) keep you from seeking out God. James 4:8 says "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." I can admit easily that many in the clergy have offended and many christian's may have their nose in the air. There have been atrocities commited in the name of Christ. None the less, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. If you know what I mean. Scripture is can only be found true or untrue on it's own merits and not by the example of fallen mankind (even church goers.)
Personally, I didn't care for Bill Clinton getting blow jobs in the oval office, but I'm sure you can agree that the transgression did not bare on whether the decisions he made from that office were right or wrong. They need to be judged on their own merits as well and not by his other misdeeds. Likewise, you ought to consider the Bible for its own evidence.

The fact that you are bisexual does not bother me. You are free to live your life as well. I do believe though that it is a risk filled lifestyle. I don't condone it either, but I can accept you (which doesn't mean accept all your actions) without either of us being perfect. Did you read the article in the link about what the Bible says about homosexuality? If so, any comments?

Thanks for being respectful in your query. I hope you will find me to be the same. :cool:

[joker121]

Joker121, forgive me if I was hasty to defensive positions. I am sure you can see why I have felt attacked in previous posts.

My faith is the cornerstone of my reality. I am able and willing to defend it, but would rather share it with those interested. Your non-agressive approach is refreshing as well. I wouldn't let what people think of you (even those people who go to church) keep you from seeking out God. James 4:8 says "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." I can admit easily that many in the clergy have offended and many christian's may have their nose in the air. There have been atrocities commited in the name of Christ. None the less, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. If you know what I mean. Scripture is can only be found true or untrue on it's own merits and not by the example of fallen mankind (even church goers.)
Personally, I didn't care for Bill Clinton getting blow jobs in the oval office, but I'm sure you can agree that the transgression did not bare on whether the decisions he made from that office were right or wrong. They need to be judged on their own merits as well and not by his other misdeeds. Likewise, you ought to consider the Bible for its own evidence.

The fact that you are bisexual does not bother me. You are free to live your life as well. I do believe though that it is a risk filled lifestyle. I don't condone it either, but I can accept you (which doesn't mean accept all your actions) without either of us being perfect. Did you read the article in the link about what the Bible says about homosexuality? If so, any comments?

Thanks for being respectful in your query. I hope you will find me to be the same.

I understand why your on the defensive man. It's ok, I've been going throuhg sort of a spiritual revelation over the past few days, and I love it. I'm sort of into the more out there stuff, but I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same god man.
I understand your views regarding me and my sexuality, and I'm glad to hear your feelings put thta way. I've heard it put many more hateful ways, and I think you got it right. Expressing yourself, without shoving down peoples throats.
I think we all jsut need to calm down, and seek spiritual and inner peace. I'm not saying that I've attained moksha(nirvana, enlightenment) or anything like that. but I've grwon over the past few days in terms of spirituality, adn my relationship to people, and the earth.
While I do find your quotatations and such from the bible intersting, I stopped relying on ancient texts long ago. I fetl, that personally I had to look to myself, and find out what I thought about god/creator/divine spirit/yaweh/etc.
I've found that this omnipotent spirit exists in everything, and is always with me. I wouldn't define it as Jess, or god, or naything reall, just an all loving force that is in all things, and is the essence of the universe. It loves me, and shows me how to love everyone.
I like to write 'Namaste' after some of my posts. It is a Hindu term,though I am not Hindu, that means I bow to you and your divinity. I guess this would be the Christain equivalent of seeing Jesus in someone. I find a reason that every person, and thing is beautiful. I love those who would hate me, and those who wouldn't. I'm not perfect about it, but I try my best. I'm only human, and it would be foolish of me to deny that as a human I am imperfect. I guess that I have fond the true meaning of the word Namaste, and it means something to me now, it doesn't jsut have a 'cool meaning' it is the menaing, and the feelings that I hold behind it, that are important to me. I mena when I say it and write it.
Regarding Bill Clinton, I totally agree with you, that whole thing, seemed liek a huge media distraction stunt to me. It really didn't matter, and was blown wayyy out of proportion. Although, it did make for some great jokes lol!
I checked out your site, and I liked it, b/c I had never heard any more reasoning behind the whole gays and the bible thing, beyond Soddom and Gammorah(spelling?). I just wonder how far 'not condoning' homosexuality goes. Is it just not condoning, or does it go farther? Again, I am making these jusgements based on other people I know. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think that some people can misconstrue that message.
I used to be Catholic, and then I got tired of that, b/c I wasn't feeling anything while doing it, and I say the church, and all of hte other christain options that surrounded me, as being filled with hypocrisy. I then tried to go a buddhist path. That was good for a while, but there was one problem. Buddhism has their own littel ten commandments called the eightfold path. It says no smoking, and no drinking. That was my one problem. I didn't want to be a part buddhist or anything corny like that, and for a hile I was in a tailspin, not knowing what or how to worship. Then I realized, that I was boxing myself in to think that I had to have a religion. I realized, that I should try seeing what made sense to me.
I wouldn't reccomend this to everybody. I cna see where most people would only half heartedly go after spirituality like this, and seek to create their own religion/ belief system, with practically no rules. I obeyed my conscience. ANd now, I have found happiness, contention ,and I feel connected with the divine wisdom of the universe.
I guess there is one quote that really sums up my feelings on religion "Religion is the opiate of the masses"-Karl Marx.
Some peole get wayyy to into it, and don't even stop to think for themselves. Taht is why I wen my own route.
I hope I didn't ramble too much. But it was nice to get a civl response, peace and love man
Namaste(I really do mean it)

[Razer]

Joker121, clearly you are a gentle spirit. I am sure I could learn much from you in that regard. My temper is certainly one of my downfalls. I've been planning recently to do a Scripture search on anger with my oldest daughter. She just completed reading the entire Bible recently. A feat not even I have accomplished yet. She was not put up to it. Chose it of her own accord.

Anyway, so as not to leave my self unclear about not condoning homosexuality. I mean it in the same way that one of my close friends drinks and drives regularly and I don't condone it. I don't think either issue is harmless. But, I do not reject my friend and I would not reject you either. From my understanding of things, both are detrimental practices for the participant and possibly others. It's my concern for my friend that makes me wish he didn't do that. Hope that helps.
I must admit that being called a homophobe is a hot button for me. It is such inflamatory labeling. ( I am not saying you said it, others have because I am Christian and stand on my belief that it is a wrong practice.) Nobody who knows me has ever leveled such an accusation, because they know how I care about people. It's only come from hot headed rhetoric launchers. Just because I am opposed to the practice does not make me a hate monger. In fact, it couldn't be farther from the true reality.

Being categorized as just another religion is also a turn off to me. The terms Religion and Christianity mean various things to various people. I can see why a general spirituality is appealing to you. It sounds like you may have had some experiences that turned you away from ' The Church '. But, it is not the church that should be our attraction nor our excuse. It is the person of Jesus that is at issue in Christianity and not the broad continuum of the sect's practices. We can agree that there is a Supreme Being it appears. Yet I would suggest that it matters more of exactly who It is. Particularly if He is trying to reach you as His book says. I know all the tired arguments for why Scripture can't be trusted, but the truth is, these arguments have all been put down soundly. You have to ask yourself, is it the people in the church and there actions that have turned you away, OR can you say that you have honeslty searched for God in the Bible and found sound reason why He isn't there? I believe there is a strong chance that you are rejecting His imperfect people more than you have found Scripture to be unreliable. Just a guess, of course, I don't know your heart. Only you and God do. I would urge you to search your heart though. Besides, I don't think that peace is the ultimate goal. I am talking about a relationship with a personal creator who wants a personal relationship with you. Relationships are not always peaceful.

I would be glad to carry on our discussion if you like. If not, then I hope that the only true God will find a way to reveal Himself to you and that your heart would be ready to receive Him. :cool:

[joker121]

Thank you for hte offer razer, but I think I have found what would be labeled god. I find that I am learning many of the lessons that many people tried to hammer into my head when I was in the churhc, but now that I am left to myself, I find that they are all coming to me. I do feel a realtionship with the creator/divine entity/etc. I have found something htat is greater than myself, and full fo love. Something that will always be with me werever I go. I can't really put into words, what it is I've found. It is sort of like trying to fraw a four dimensional object in the third dimension. I cna only show you certain parts of it, other parts are beyond comprehension.
I understand your stnace on homsexualtiy better now. I must say, I have never heard it put that way. If you don't mind my probing into your beliefs, I would liek to know your stance on abortion, and of course, your reasoning behind it.
I have tried reading the bible many times, but never could bring myself to read it in its entirety(spelling?). I have read the book of revalations a thousand times, its the most interesting, and most of genesis. I also read all of habakuk, but it si the shortest book of the bible. I find the book of psalms to be particularly interesting, just becasue it is basically poetry, and I like to see that in religion.
Namaste razer.

[Razer]

It's probably not hard to guess my position on abortion Joker121. That is probably one of the most volatile issues facing our country right now. I know that many have deep and personal feelings about it. As do I. It is one of the most important issues to me. If you are up to hearing my personal views on the subject, I will be glad to write you an email. That is, if you care to share your email address. I am including a couple of article links here for those who would like to hear a well reasoned case against abortion.

A Biblical view of abortion
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1302.pdf

Is the Pro-Life position unfair?
http://www.equip.org/free/CP1301.pdf

These articles represent my view, but there are personal aspects to my position that I would not put out here for the vultures, so if you are sincerely interested, let me know an email to write to. :cool:

PS Joker121 what did you find unique in my previous comments. You said something like, you never heard it put that way before. Could you elaborate?

[joker121]

[email protected]

I've never really heard the arguments rationalized the way your rationalize them. And you seem to be more accepting of epople's right to choose for themselves. Most people I know will flip out if people don't act like thye do in terms of religion.

[Stooj]

Um, Christian or not, we're all reaching for the same thing. We all feel it. We try to give words to it, but spirituality lies within the realm of imagination and emotion. I believe it to be a right brained thing, and if that's the case then it defies left brain activities such as human logic and rational understanding. Maybe this is why people panic and try to justify their ideas of religion over someone elses. It really is difficult to describe, and if you feel happier, if you feel like a better person, if it connects you in a more intimate way with other people, then beautiful. Go for it. The rest is in the details, and that can go on forever.

Just my two cents towards a debate thats been goin on since the dawn of man lol.

Do you really think we can all come to the perfect answer on a thread on the internet?

Stay open guys, all anger does is hurt people and obstruct some interesting conversations. (Also, its a great indicator of fear. 'I'm angry b/c I'm scared, now let me wave this big stick in your face so you can't tell.' :D )

oh my god I can't stop typing take this coffee away. devil bean....