Real Priorities

[XTC]

iThe owner of Democratic Underground posted this at DU, a lot of this stuff is from the democrats agenda for the 109th congress, it's good to see them using it strategically like this.:

Nuclear Option: What happens? (Democratic Agenda for America)
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 08:40 AM by Skinner


I got this by email, so I will re-reprint in its entirety. These bills look like great stuff...

Nuclear Option: What happens?

As a matter of comity, the Minority in the Senate traditionally defers to the Majority in the setting of the agenda. If Bill Frist pulls the nuclear trigger, Democrats will show deference no longer.

Invoking a little-known Senate procedure called Rule XIV, last week Democrats put nine bills on the Senate calendar that seek to help America fulfill its promise.

If Republicans break the rules Democrats will use the rule to bring to the Senate floor an agenda that meets the needs of average Americans, such as lowering gas prices, reducing the cost of health care and helping veterans.

"Across the country, people are worried about things that matter to their families * the health of their loved ones, their child's performance in schools, and those sky high gas prices," said Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid. "But what is the number one priority for Senate Republicans? Doing away with the last check on one-party rule in Washington to allow President Bush, Senator Frist and Tom Delay to stack the courts with radical judges. If Republicans proceed to pull the trigger on the nuclear option, Democrats will respond by employing existing Senate rules to push forward our agenda for America."

Democrats have introduced bills that address America's real challenges. (Details attached)

1. Women's Health Care (S. 844). "The Prevention First Act of 2005" will reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and abortions by increasing funding for family planning and ending health insurance discrimination against women.

2. Veterans' Benefits (S. 845). "The Retired Pay Restoration Act of 2005" will assist disabled veterans who, under current law, must choose to either receive their retirement pay or disability compensation.

3. Fiscal Responsibility (S. 851). Democrats will move to restore fiscal discipline to government spending and extend the
pay-as-you-go requirement.

4. Relief at the Pump (S. 847). Democrats plan to halt the diversion of oil from the markets to the strategic petroleum reserve. By releasing oil from the reserve through a swap program, the plan will bring down prices at the pump.

5. Education (S. 848). Democrats have a bill that will: strengthen head start and child care programs, improve elementary and secondary education, provide a roadmap for first generation and low-income college students, provide college tuition relief for students and their families, address the need for math, science and special education teachers, and make college affordable for all students.

6. Jobs (S. 846). Democrats will work in support of legislation that guarantees overtime pay for workers and sets a fair minimum wage.

7. Energy Markets (S. 870). Democrats work to prevent Enron-style market manipulation of electricity.

8. Corporate Taxation (S. 872). Democrats make sure companies pay their fair share of taxes to the U.S. government instead of keeping profits overseas.

9. Standing with our troops (S. 11). Democrats believe that putting America's security first means standing up for our troops and their families

"Abusing power is not what the American people sent us to Washington to do. We need to address real priorities instead -- fight for relief at the gas pump, stronger schools and lower health care costs for America's families," said Senator Reid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1743344

[Torog]

Howdy XTC,

The first thing that really stands out for me,in this 'agenda',is the tampering with the strategic oil reserve. There's a reason why it's called the strategic oil reserve,it ain't the handy-dandy lower the price of gas reserve..it's there for national defense purposes..not lower the price of gas or garner votes for democrappers. It's a classic example of how democrappers don't understand national security needs. We wouldn't be in this spot..if the environuts hadn't been so successful in preventing more refineries and drilling for gas and oil..our national security and national economy is worse off,because of the environuts.

The next thing,is the Head Start program,the liberals want to strengthen it,in an insidious way,by discriminating against folks of faith,claiming that Christianity,teaches war-like behaviour to children,no mention of what the koran instructs it's followers to do,like waging violent jihad against all infidels.

As for radical judges,that's just a load of bull,any judge,who adhere's to Biblical morality,is considered radical,by liberals. What liberals want.are judges who are little more than social engineers,ruling by fiat,forcing society and the victims of criminals,to accept their radical rulings,often made with deference towards criminals and for steppin around the will of the majority.

It's past time,to add more refineries and open up more land for drilling,the strategic reserve,needs to be added to,not diminished,new nuclear plants need to be built,as well..in order to break our dependence on foreign oil.

Have a good one....

[XTC]

But see... Religion has no place in politics none what so ever and it seems likethese radical judges implement religion into politics. And the Environuts... See they see the bigger picture if we dont care for the world now, it will be just as big as a threat as terrorism for future generations and you call us procastanters.

[amsterdam]

democrats support the troops?they just wont fund them?

democrats want to raise your taxes across the board and stop the economic growth.

[Torog]

But see... Religion has no place in politics none what so ever and it seems likethese radical judges implement religion into politics. And the Environuts... See they see the bigger picture if we dont care for the world now, it will be just as big as a threat as terrorism for future generations and you call us procastanters.
Howdy XTC,

I don't want a theocracy either,but I do prefer politicians and judges,that are God-fearing men or women,who err on the side of Life and protection of the traditional family and traditional values,and who respect the wishes of the people.

As for the environuts,if they really saw the big picture,they'd know that we must first survive as a nation,against our enemies..national defense first,enviromentalism and social engineering,need to come after our national defense is secured.

I'm curious,just what religious value,is it that you fear so much ?

Have a good one...

[Torog]

democrats support the troops?they just wont fund them?

democrats want to raise your taxes across the board and stop the economic growth.
Howdy amsterdam,

That's a big 10-4 ! The dim's agenda,is steeped in socialism and enviromentalism,as well as discriminating against folks of faith,most specifically,Christians.

Have a good one ! :D

[XTC]

I dont fear religion. What I do fear are power hungry right ring chrisitians who think christianity will pave the way for a brighter tomorrow. Get real. And for the enviroment your saying pretty much Fuck it. You know who needs an atmosphere and all. We can make due. Its JUST the atmosphere.

[amsterdam]

global warming isnt as bad as people say.some studies that came out not long ago said it is ALOT better than you think.

i love the idiots who are against ANWAR oil digging and have no idea where or what kind of climate is there.too funny.or that we already dig there and the animal life has increased in that area.

[bhallg2k]

Man, it's getting really old trying to respond to all of this idiocy by right-wingers with whom not one eye or ear is open to anything other than their own misguided...

I give up.

Torog and amsterdam, why don't you guys find a third to round out the trio.

[amsterdam]

but i am not a right winger?i am a republican.

[Torog]

I dont fear religion. What I do fear are power hungry right ring chrisitians who think christianity will pave the way for a brighter tomorrow. Get real. And for the enviroment your saying pretty much F*ck it. You know who needs an atmosphere and all. We can make due. Its JUST the atmosphere.
Howdy XTC,

Your fears are understandable..however..it is national security,that's threatened,in the near term,and must be addressed first..the atmosphere,is gonna last alot longer,and I'm certain that you've bought into all the fear-mongering about the enviroment..and the envoronuts have ya runnin scared..but if all of this ends in a nuclear holocaust,because the Left is intent on destroying national security..yer gonna have alot more to worry about..than just the atmosphere.

Have a good one ....

[XTC]

Its Bush that is fueling the fire for a Nuclear Holocaust. He now has or will have WOMD pointed at Iran and North Korea. This is just going to piss them off even more. I do believe that we must do something about these nations, But just to do what they are doing isnt the right way.

[Torog]

Man, it's getting really old trying to respond to all of this idiocy by right-wingers with whom not one eye or ear is open to anything other than their own misguided...

I give up.

Torog and amsterdam, why don't you guys find a third to round out the trio.
Howdy bhallg2k,

Hey man..thanx for the laugh...:) You might as well concede..you'll never win against the likes of me..lol. My values and beliefs,have been challenged since '98,at the Marihemp boards..this here..is my new huntin grounds...:D

Have a good one ...

[amsterdam]

will have??we have had missles with those countries names on them for 30 years.this is nothing new.

[Torog]

Its Bush that is fueling the fire for a Nuclear Holocaust. He now has or will have WOMD pointed at Iran and North Korea. This is just going to piss them off even more. I do believe that we must do something about these nations, But just to do what they are doing isnt the right way.
Howdy XTC,

It ain't Bush that's spoiling for a nuclear show-down..it's the enemies of Freedom,that are seeking a nuclear confrontation. Iran,wants to destroy Israel and North Korea,wants to destroy Japan..why should we allow peaceful nations to be destroyed and preserve commie and religious dictatorships ? I realize,that the enemy of your enemy(America),are your friends..but in the end,they'll turn on you and eat you for lunch. You advocate appeasement and surrender..well I ain't no coward or quitter..I will always defend the Free World.

Have a good one ...

[bhallg2k]

That's fine. Like I said, I give up.

Let's drill the shit out of ANWR. It's cold as fuck there and no one visits anyway. No use in saving a pristine example of Earth's beauty just for the sake of doing it.

And let's build so many refineries and nuclear power plants that you won't be able to throw a stone without hitting one. Environmental damage? Who cares. The fact that the reason why there haven't been any built in the last 20-30 years is because no one wants one near them? Fuck 'em. I'll even let the government store all the radioactive waste in my backyard, no political fight over Yucca Mountain required. I've always wanted my offspring to have a third testicle. Now all of us Hall men can have 'em for 10,000 years. And what about national security, you say? Well, we barely protect the nuclear facilities and chemical plants we've got now, so not protecting new ones shouldn't be a problem.

And you're right, global warming is grand. The longer growing season is fan-fucking-tastic. It doesn't matter that soil depletion is a problem. And the ice cap melt-off can go ahead and drown those pesky free-thinkers who live always seem to live near the ocean in NYC and LA. Besides all of that, I just love skin cancer. So chic these days. And El Nino is my friend. Brown people in Latin America and Southeast Asia need to learn how to swim anyways.

Fuck the world. Who cares? It's dominion theory. God's coming back soon so we don't have to worry about taking care of this thing us humans have lived on for thousands of years.

[amsterdam]

That's fine. Like I said, I give up.

Let's drill the shit out of ANWR. It's cold as fuck there and no one visits anyway. No use in saving a pristine example of Earth's beauty just for the sake of doing it.

And let's build so many refineries and nuclear power plants that you won't be able to throw a stone without hitting one. Environmental damage? Who cares. The fact that the reason why there haven't been any built in the last 20-30 years is because no one wants one near them? Fuck 'em. I'll even let the government store all the radioactive waste in my backyard, no political fight over Yucca Mountain required. I've always wanted my offspring to have a third testicle. Now all of us Hall men can have 'em for 10,000 years. And what about national security, you say? Well, we barely protect the nuclear facilities and chemical plants we've got now, so not protecting new ones shouldn't be a problem.

And you're right, global warming is grand. The longer growing season is fan-fucking-tastic. It doesn't matter that soil depletion is a problem. And the ice cap melt-off can go ahead and drown those pesky free-thinkers who live always seem to live in NYC and LA. Besides all of that, I just love skin cancer. So chic these days. And El Nino is my friend. Brown people in Latin America need to learn how to swim anyways.

Fuck the world. Who cares? It's dominion theory. God's coming back soon so we don't have to worry about taking care of this thing us humans have lived on for thousands of years.


hahahahahahahahah,as for the ANWAR,we would only use .001% of the land.

and the people that LIVE there are all for it,so are the teamsters,and the eskimos(the only people within a hundred miles).

the only yahoos against it live in san francisco and new york and have NO idea what they are talking about,.lol.peeons. :cool:

[amsterdam]

or in new jersey.

[Torog]

Howdy ball,

Don't give up ! I do care about the enviroment,but I care more about national security,I want my daughter to grow up in a strong America..not one that kow-tows to the enemies of Freedom.

Have a good one...

[XTC]

Bhall made a good point. The security, or lack there of, we have now guarding out power plants and what not is a joke. And you guys want to build more? We can barely handle what we have now. We would be sitting ducks to some terrorists.

[amsterdam]

even if a plane went directly into a reactor it would not explode.

[bhallg2k]

hahahahahahahahah,as for the ANWAR,we would only use .001% of the land.

and the people that LIVE there are all for it,so are the teamsters,and the eskimos(the only people within a hundred miles).

the only yahoos against it live in san francisco and new york and have NO idea what they are talking about,.lol.peeons. :cool:

Damn right, we'll only use a little bit of the land up there. It'll be a spider web of pipelines and roads that covers the entire region of ANWR, but in total land coverage, thanks to convenience of math that we can spout off to those leftist Nazis over and over again, it'll only be considered a small fraction of the total area.

[XTC]

That May or may not be. I am sure it wouldnt be a good thing though.

[amsterdam]

we already drill there and there are NO "spider webs".the animal life has doubled.

[bhallg2k]

Howdy ball,

Don't give up ! I do care about the enviroment,but I care more about national security,I want my daughter to grow up in a strong America..not one that kow-tows to the enemies of Freedom.

Have a good one...

I care about national security too. In fact, I care so much that I think we ought to stop importing any oil from those raghead bastards in the Middle East. Let's fuck up our own environment for a change. Nevermind that we traditionally only have influence over those governments with which we do business.

And to those who say that conservation could work, that an average fuel economy increase of only 7 miles per gallon could save as much oil as ANWR would provide: blow me. To the hundreds of thousands who could get jobs as energy and car companies begin to invest in clean energy technology: go to hell and have fun with those unemployment checks.

I really do think it makes sense to continue to survive solely off of oil, even though we don't live in the best region of the world for that sort of thing. Be proud guys; you've converted me.

Hey, and when the ozone layer is nearly gone and the use solar energy and wind power is kind of obvious, we can come up with some other bullshit to keep on pumpin' that oil out of the ground.

[amsterdam]

sarcasm makes the baby jesus cry.

[bhallg2k]

we already drill there and there are NO "spider webs".the animal life has doubled.

Of course there are no "spider webs." That'll change as soon as the cash register starts going "ch-ching" and we start actually pumping oil out of the region. My mouth is already watering and I think I have a hard-on.

Animal life doubling? Ok. Whatever. I don't know how to mock something so obviously skewed.

[bhallg2k]

even if a plane went directly into a reactor it would not explode.

Any explosion that happened wouldn't be the bad part. It's that massive radioactive cloud you gotta worry about.

[XTC]

sarcasm makes the baby jesus cry.


I got a kick out of that one

[bhallg2k]

So did I.

[amsterdam]

are you kidding??what is it, the caribou,their herd size has grown in the biscayne bay area.how is that skewed?thats a fact.i know they dont talk about alaska in jersey(and most likely dont care)

have you even seen the proposed drilling area pics?without looking it up,do you know where it is?

[bhallg2k]

I'm not saying that your stats are skewed. I'm just saying that any increase in animal life has absolutely nothing to do with drilling for oil or anything else people have done, for that matter. It's literally impossible for humans to affect that much change without some sort of herd-raising going on.

And no, I haven't seen the proposed drilling area of ANWR depicted. I do know that it's on the northernmost part of ANWR. And I know that once you pump oil, for it to do any good, it has to get to a marketplace. Therein lies the web of pipelines and additional shipping terminals.

[Hydrizzle]

Democrats have introduced bills that address America's real challenges. (Details attached)

1. Women's Health Care (S. 844). "The Prevention First Act of 2005" will reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and abortions by increasing funding for family planning and ending health insurance discrimination against women.

I have never heard of any health insurance discrimination against women... actually they pay less due to thier longer lifespan.



3. Fiscal Responsibility (S. 851). Democrats will move to restore fiscal discipline to government spending and extend the
pay-as-you-go requirement.

LOL, good luck with that one. Maybe you have a little too much faith in democrats. Like republicans, they are almost all power-hungry Yale-educated businessmen only concerned about thier re-election and campaign funds.


4. Relief at the Pump (S. 847). Democrats plan to halt the diversion of oil from the markets to the strategic petroleum reserve. By releasing oil from the reserve through a swap program, the plan will bring down prices at the pump.

The US has a strategic oil reserve for a reason.... just in case of massive shortage or war. I highly doubt this will get passed, as the US needs it oil reserve. This is a shameless stunt to try and gain polularity, although it's only a short-term fix.


5. Education (S. 848). Democrats have a bill that will: strengthen head start and child care programs, improve elementary and secondary education, provide a roadmap for first generation and low-income college students, provide college tuition relief for students and their families, address the need for math, science and special education teachers, and make college affordable for all students.

This doesn't go too well with #3, above.... once again, this will be an "unfunded mandate", like no child left behind.


9. Standing with our troops (S. 11). Democrats believe that putting America's security first means standing up for our troops and their families

Okay, does that mean incresing military spending? Or does it mean they will just say "I support the troops!" in some CNN interview? What substantial support will they offer the troops that the government isn't already?


"Abusing power is not what the American people sent us to Washington to do. We need to address real priorities instead -- fight for relief at the gas pump, stronger schools and lower health care costs for America's families," said Senator Reid.

Oh, I thought that abusing power is what being a senator was all about.... silly me.

[sensiskunk]

Republicans love oil more than they love the earth, go figure! It makes no sense to try and argue with torog and amsterdam, they dont give a shit! So im with you bhall, fuck 'em, they are going to realize, hopefully, that the earth isnt invincible, and that the atmosphere will soon collapse, and we will all be fucked. But oh fuckin well, bring on the oil and nuclear plants, i wanna die quick! LOL.

[Hydrizzle]

...It makes no sense to try and argue with torog and amsterdam, they dont give a shit!

The same applies to all the hopelessly liberal people on this board....

[sensiskunk]

Republicans are about war, democrats are about peace, and health!

[Hydrizzle]

Democrats are about peace and health..... Republicans about war.....

I dont know if i have ever heard a broader generalization that that. Congrats, sensiskunk, you have managed to take an incredibly complex issue and condense it into one fragment sentence!

[amsterdam]

democrats are the party of NO now.no ideas,no solutions,no plans.

[Hydrizzle]

They are the party of bitching and moaning.

[amsterdam]

get a rope. :cool:

[sensiskunk]

And republicans arent, gimme a fucking break. Republicans stopped at nothing to criticize Clinton for gettin some pussy, because all you loser fucks cant! Democrats get the pussy, republicans get nothing. U fucks arent even real republicans, ur posting on a fuckin cannabis site, and republicans are the dumb mother fuckers that make cannabis illegal, stupid ignorant fucks. Go to a drug-free site and post your BS, cause its you fucking republicans that make cannabis so hated and illegal because of your retarded religious antics, so stfu, you have no room to speak!

[sensiskunk]

Heres what i say to republicans

[amsterdam]

hahahahaha,lol.i love your fit.sucker.

[amsterdam]

thank god we are in charge. :cool:

[sensiskunk]

is that all u have to say pussy, ur the sucker for being a homophobic prick!

[amsterdam]

i am for gay marriage?i am a republican,not a neo-con.

[Hydrizzle]

I wasn't aware that non-liberal view weren't allowed on this board.... guess a moderator should ban me then.... Censorship is perfectly acceptable.... I really should stfu.... don't wanna rock the boat....

Oh... anmd im not against gay marraige, I DONT GIVE A SHIT WHAT GAYS DO, thats thier own business. I'm more worried about things like thousands getting butchered in Africa, and tyrannical dictators threatening peace.

[amsterdam]

I wasn't aware that non-liberal view weren't allowed on this board.... guess a moderator should ban me then.... Censorship is perfectly acceptable.... I really should stfu.... don't wanna rock the boat....

Oh... anmd im not against gay marraige, I DONT GIVE A SHIT WHAT GAYS DO, thats thier own business. I'm more worried about things like thousands getting butchered in Africa, and tyrannical dictators threatening peace.


you are not alone.i am conservative too and to the liberals here,if you arent evil you must be stupid.ya know,the typical knee jerk liberal reaction. :confused:

[Hydrizzle]

That even applies to other issues....

Some issues just don't stack up to world issues. I know I'm probably the only one who will ever say this, but here goes. Even the issue of legalization of marijuana does not stack up to the problem of genocide, war, and starvation abroad. If everyone pooled the efforts they put into other causes into this cause, the world would be such a better place. These issues are quite petty compared to thousands dying. Thats why I hate the UN and wish for it to be abolished, and for the US to REALLY become the world police. Because god knows the world needs it.

[amsterdam]

its about to be the league of nations.

[sensiskunk]

heres the typical conservative response "yee-haw, it was the liberals that done it", lol.
I wouldnt even call myself a 'liberal' or a 'democrat', just a concerned individual! Republicans definitely take criticizm the furthest, that and fear tactics, are how you guyz win every election. If i was John Kerry standing in front of GW while he was criticizing me, i woulda knocked the mother fucker out, lol, jk. John Kerry was a pussy and shouldve been doggin on Bush the whole time to make him feel even more like a moron! But like i said before, how can a 'conservative' be posting on a cannabis site, when conservatives are the ones that initially made cannabis illegal? I'm also sure neither of you are multi-millionaires, so you obviously dont care that our tax dollars are going to the people that dont need it, rich people, and you obviously dont care about health care, or the environment!

[amsterdam]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!gimme a break!john kerry?he was unfit for president.a loser.

[amsterdam]

typical.you should look at who funds the party of no.

[sensiskunk]

That even applies to other issues....

Some issues just don't stack up to world issues. I know I'm probably the only one who will ever say this, but here goes. Even the issue of legalization of marijuana does not stack up to the problem of genocide, war, and starvation abroad. If everyone pooled the efforts they put into other causes into this cause, the world would be such a better place. These issues are quite petty compared to thousands dying. Thats why I hate the UN and wish for it to be abolished, and for the US to REALLY become the world police. Because god knows the world needs it.
Didnt catch this before my last post, but i agree, legalization of cannabis doesnt even compare to whats going on in the world, but what can the US really do for all these hopeless countries? GW has already wasted all the money on the war, so we couldnt convert those funds to help other countries, and besides, Americans are the most ignorant people on earth, theres no way in hell Americans would allow funding for international problems, they would say we have enough problems of our own. Although, we could send mass amounts of weapons and food, but i doubt those people would even know what to do.

[sensiskunk]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!gimme a break!john kerry?he was unfit for president.a loser.
And GW isnt a loser? LMAO. I piss on GW's intelligence, and his capability to do the rite thing!

[amsterdam]

hes just a regular guy,thats why people like him

W scored higher on his college entrance exam and officer test in the military than john kerry did?

[sensiskunk]

I thought GW scored avg. on his SAT's, which is like 1050 or somethin like that, which is still pretty pathetic! Still, John Kerry actually went to war, while GW was a lil pussy and did everything he could to stay out war, and now hes the commander-in-chief, and he has no clue what hes doing! I never said John Kerry was smarter, i only said John Kerry should've stood up for himself!

[amsterdam]

serving in the air national gaurd isnt honorable?most of the guys my mother went to college with did the same thing?it wasnt uncommon and certainly not dishonorable?

perhaps if he had met with the north vietnamese during the war it would be ok?lied about going to cambodia?had his picture hang in a memorial for north vietnam soldiers..

funny,it seems as if the rest of the world is beginning to wonder if bush has been right all along?

[sensiskunk]

im going to say what Hydrizzle always says, except the opposite, "Thats right-wing garbage"!LOL.

[amsterdam]

how is that right wing garbage?that was an english newspaper.

liberals are on the WRONG side of history again.

[XTC]

Oh Fuck

[bhallg2k]

how is that right wing garbage?that was an english newspaper.

liberals are on the WRONG side of history again.

I don't know any liberals who are upset about what's happening in Iraq. I don't know anyone who didn't think that after Saddam's removal things wouldn't be better. It only makes sense that if you topple a brutal dictator, that his constituents will be better off.

Our problem stems from the fact that we were LIED TO in order to drum up support for the war. The whole idea behind WMDs, Iraq being a threat to America, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's subtle intimations that Saddam had something to do with 9/11, that's why we're pissed off. All of those turned out to be false. And we, as liberals, felt that additional diplomatic measures needed to be taken, not only with Iraq itself, but with the world in general, before we launched into a pre-emptive war.

We're pissed off because as the reasoning for war changed, as it became more about "bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," we never once turned our eyes to the other humanitarian atrocities taking place around the globle. Where are we in Africa? South America? Eastern Europe?

We're pissed off because that massive part of our foreign policy is not uniform, as foreing policy absolutely has to be. Not only is it inconsistent, it's dangerous. Who are we now to influence other countries not to participate in pre-emptive war since we've done it ourselves? Hypothetically speaking, doesn't our new stance give Canada and Mexico every right to invade us if they decide to manufacture reasons why we're a threat to them, as we did with Iraq?

We're pissed off because while W was off playin' in the sand, North Korea's practically been waving their arms, saying, "Look at us; we've got nukes!" So if we're really out to protect ourselves, why are we not invading North Korea? And if we're really humanitarians, why are we not freeing the millions of North Koreans who are starving or in forced labor camps and who have no freedom whatsoever?

I'll even give Republicans a money reason: Where's all that Iraqi oil money that was supposed to pay for their reconstruction by now? Why are we still footing the bill?

Here's one for you fiscal conservatives out there: Why, if we have a huge deficit and are still having to pay for operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, is W still handing out massive tax cuts? How does that balance?

Bottom line, we were lied to by the highest level of our government and those lies didn't even make sense. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all knew that if it was only about "freedom and democracy," Americans by in large would never, ever go for it.

Iraq has been a clusterfuck from start to finish. It doesn't matter how free they are now or how free they will continue to be, that will never change. And the 1,600 U.S. soldiers who died for it will never come back.

[XTC]

Well said Bhall, 9/11 was a scapegoat to get into Iraq. Because Iraq had oil. And Oil=Money the building block of America.

[sensiskunk]

ill answer for the republicans out there "ITS A LIBERAL CONSPIRACY"!, LMAO!

[stoner spirit]

Radio active brains anyone? Hahahahahahaha.

[Hydrizzle]

I don't know any liberals who are upset about what's happening in Iraq. I don't know anyone who didn't think that after Saddam's removal things wouldn't be better. It only makes sense that if you topple a brutal dictator, that his constituents will be better off.

Our problem stems from the fact that we were LIED TO in order to drum up support for the war. The whole idea behind WMDs, Iraq being a threat to America, Cheney's and Rumsfeld's subtle intimations that Saddam had something to do with 9/11, that's why we're pissed off. All of those turned out to be false. And we, as liberals, felt that additional diplomatic measures needed to be taken, not only with Iraq itself, but with the world in general, before we launched into a pre-emptive war.

We're pissed off because as the reasoning for war changed, as it became more about "bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," we never once turned our eyes to the other humanitarian atrocities taking place around the globle. Where are we in Africa? South America? Eastern Europe?

We're pissed off because that massive part of our foreign policy is not uniform, as foreing policy absolutely has to be. Not only is it inconsistent, it's dangerous. Who are we now to influence other countries not to participate in pre-emptive war since we've done it ourselves? Hypothetically speaking, doesn't our new stance give Canada and Mexico every right to invade us if they decide to manufacture reasons why we're a threat to them, as we did with Iraq?

We're pissed off because while W was off playin' in the sand, North Korea's practically been waving their arms, saying, "Look at us; we've got nukes!" So if we're really out to protect ourselves, why are we not invading North Korea? And if we're really humanitarians, why are we not freeing the millions of North Koreans who are starving or in forced labor camps and who have no freedom whatsoever?

I'll even give Republicans a money reason: Where's all that Iraqi oil money that was supposed to pay for their reconstruction by now? Why are we still footing the bill?

Here's one for you fiscal conservatives out there: Why, if we have a huge deficit and are still having to pay for operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, is W still handing out massive tax cuts? How does that balance?

Bottom line, we were lied to by the highest level of our government and those lies didn't even make sense. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all knew that if it was only about "freedom and democracy," Americans by in large would never, ever go for it.

Iraq has been a clusterfuck from start to finish. It doesn't matter how free they are now or how free they will continue to be, that will never change. And the 1,600 U.S. soldiers who died for it will never come back.

Wow, bhall2k, you make the point i have been trying to make along! All the issues we argue about are null and void compared to suffering in Africa, South America, and southeast Asia!

However, I still (of course) disagree with you on the whole Iraq war thing...

Sure, Bush lied to the American people about Iraq. Ya know what? I'm cool with that! In his shoes I would have done the same, although i would have sent troops to many many more locations than just Iraq. I would have sent troops to sudan to stop the genocide of thousands, for one thing...

Tell me this.... I am sure you agree with me, bhall2k, that the American people are really quite ignorant. So if you had to lie to them in order to stop a ruthless dictator from opressing millions, and at the same increase your country's prosperity, that would be perfectly acceptable in my own mind. Thats what this war is about, by the way, the prosperity of not only the US but the entire industrialized world. A stable middle east is of great interest to all petrolium-consuming countries.

[Hydrizzle]

Well said Bhall, 9/11 was a scapegoat to get into Iraq. Because Iraq had oil. And Oil=Money the building block of America.

Agreed, XTC, although there is so much more to it than that! We went into Afghanistan b/c of 9/11! Remeber Afghanistan? The other country we invaded? Thats where Osama is supposedly holed up. That or Pakistan, our supposed "ally" in the war on terror. Oil is one of, but not the ONLY reason we went ot Iraq.... you have realize we have eased the suffering of that polulation with our war. Now, children aren't abducted and tortured to death! Kurds are no longer slaughtered! The Iraqui people now have no fear of death except for that of the extremist who would like to see them opressed again!!!

Think of Operation Iraqui Freedom as the Iraqui's war of independence, only with help from the world superpower.

[bhallg2k]

I wouldn't say that the American people are ignorant.

Ok, maybe I would to an extent. For whatever reason, most of us are too easily distracted by the "sexier" stories in media, and totally in the dark about the more important matters. Even things such as gay marriage and child kidnappings (which I admit is terribly, terribly sad) aren't really all that important to our collective good. But if you take Americans one by one and show them the truth, they'll usually respond accordingly.

Would I lie, as president, in order to garner favorable public opinion for starting a war? Not in a million years. Public trust in our government is probably the most important thing in the country. Especially now when potentially our lives depend on it.

The willingness of some to forgive W for lying truly amazes me. And usually those same people are the ones who were up in arms about Bill Clinton lying about a blowjob. I don't get that at all. Last time I checked, 1,600 soliders weren't dead because Willie blew his load on a government clerk's dress.

Saddam being gone is a good thing, no one denies that or ever has. The problem is that the end doesn't justify the means, especially in this case as there is no real increase in positives in the region. I'm not saying it won't work out in the long run. But as of now, oil prices are near all-time highs, Iran is trying to obtain a nuclear weapon out of fear of US invasion and Israel has continued to expand settlements into Gaza, bouyed by the US presence. What's good about that?

We would not be there if our leaders had told the truth about their intentions and had really thought about and planned for the cost, in terms of money, lives and loss of credibility. The latter is really sad as those are HUGELY important things. Hell, we don't even have an exit strategy. We're praying for the Iraqi government to kick us out so we can have an excuse to leave.

[Torog]

Howdy,to all the liberals in this thread and those who are in denial about their liberalism,

To begin with,liberals and lefties,for the most part,don't understand a dang thing about the military or strategic and tactical planning. Y'all are ignoring the facts,like the fact,that we had been under near constant attack from saddam,in the Northern and Southern,no-fly zones..that alone..is justification for attacking saddam and sons.

As for North Korea,that's a special and different situation,and needs to be handled differently,America was attacked on 9/11,in case ya forgot,by muslim jihadists,so we went after a very likely source of the problem,Iraq,whose leader,has stated his intention to attack America,again and again..as well as Israel. The UN security council,approved the use of force,in order to git saddam to comply with existing UN resolutions.

I reckon,that most liberals would dance for joy,if Israel was destroyed and all Jews slaughtered..but it ain't gonna happen..so don't git yer hopes up. Eventually,saddam would have aquired a nuke or 2,and relying on his fancy,German built,NBC bunker,would have used the nukes against Israel and rode out the storm of Israel's response,while sacrificing millions of his own citizens. Make no mistake--Israel,will defend it's self,with every weapon in it's arsenal,if the arabs attack them again..it behooves us,to rid the middle-east of it's violent leaders and muslim jihadists.

One of my cousin's,is currently deployed in South Korea,and I wish I could talk to him about how things are there,but he's in a Special Forces unit and his com's are restricted. If North Korea decides to roll a million men towards South Korea,it will probably require the use of tactical nukes,to stop the advance,or MOAB's or both.

Have a good one...

[sensiskunk]

Howdy,to all the liberals in this thread and those who are in denial about their liberalism,

To begin with,liberals and lefties,for the most part,don't understand a dang thing about the military or strategic and tactical planning. Y'all are ignoring the facts,like the fact,that we had been under near constant attack from saddam,in the Northern and Southern,no-fly zones..that alone..is justification for attacking saddam and sons.

As for North Korea,that's a special and different situation,and needs to be handled differently,America was attacked on 9/11,in case ya forgot,by muslim jihadists,so we went after a very likely source of the problem,Iraq,whose leader,has stated his intention to attack America,again and again..as well as Israel. The UN security council,approved the use of force,in order to git saddam to comply with existing UN resolutions.

I reckon,that most liberals would dance for joy,if Israel was destroyed and all Jews slaughtered..but it ain't gonna happen..so don't git yer hopes up. Eventually,saddam would have aquired a nuke or 2,and relying on his fancy,German built,NBC bunker,would have used the nukes against Israel and rode out the storm of Israel's response,while sacrificing millions of his own citizens. Make no mistake--Israel,will defend it's self,with every weapon in it's arsenal,if the arabs attack them again..it behooves us,to rid the middle-east of it's violent leaders and muslim jihadists.

One of my cousin's,is currently deployed in South Korea,and I wish I could talk to him about how things are there,but he's in a Special Forces unit and his com's are restricted. If North Korea decides to roll a million men towards South Korea,it will probably require the use of tactical nukes,to stop the advance,or MOAB's or both.

Have a good one...
You Seize to amaze me with your ignorance! GW doesnt know the first thing about international warfare, just like im sure alot of republicans dont either. You make false accusations that you obviously dont know the first thing about. What gave you the idea that democrats dont know anything about "tactical warfare"? Because were not for falsely blowing up some countries? C'mon now, think before you speak, im sure itll help you out, lol. And as for 'Isreal being destroyed and all the Jews being slaughtered', thats some shit, I thought Christians were the ones that didnt like Jews? As a matter of fact, i have sympathy for jews because of all the shit they get because of you christians, so once again, think before you speak! If America didnt have nukes, we would be fucked, because everybody in the world knows that our military blows without WMD's, if we got in a ground battle with China, we would be annhialated, but im sure your ignorant ass thinks America is invincible in all categories of war, which WE ARENT! Russia has better weapons, jets, tanks, and missiles, so get a clue, America cant go and fight everybody! Its alrite to 'you people' when a president lies, and sacrifices american lives for false pretences, but then you whine and moan when a democrat gets a blow job and lies about it, Are you jealous? I'm glad Saddam Hussein was captured, im sure that saved thousands of Iraqi lives, but now America has a huge burden to finish this war, which could possible take a decade!

[amsterdam]

You Seize to amaze me with your ignorance! GW doesnt know the first thing about international warfare, just like im sure alot of republicans dont either. You make false accusations that you obviously dont know the first thing about. What gave you the idea that democrats dont know anything about "tactical warfare"? Because were not for falsely blowing up some countries? C'mon now, think before you speak, im sure itll help you out, lol. And as for 'Isreal being destroyed and all the Jews being slaughtered', thats some shit, I thought Christians were the ones that didnt like Jews? As a matter of fact, i have sympathy for jews because of all the shit they get because of you christians, so once again, think before you speak! If America didnt have nukes, we would be fucked, because everybody in the world knows that our military blows without WMD's, if we got in a ground battle with China, we would be annhialated, but im sure your ignorant ass thinks America is invincible in all categories of war, which WE ARENT! Russia has better weapons, jets, tanks, and missiles, so get a clue, America cant go and fight everybody! Its alrite to 'you people' when a president lies, and sacrifices american lives for false pretences, but then you whine and moan when a democrat gets a blow job and lies about it, Are you jealous? I'm glad Saddam Hussein was captured, im sure that saved thousands of Iraqi lives, but now America has a huge burden to finish this war, which could possible take a decade!

the dems are idiots,no heart.we were at war for 3 days before they started shitting their pants over a dust storm.then they chimed in with their "quagmire" mantra.pussies.

[sensiskunk]

LMAO, ur the pussy amsterdam, the only thing you can do is criticize, yet you dont ever present a plausable argument, all you do is whine, grow some balls!

[XTC]

Politics are an ugly thing. We don't need personal Attacks.

[sensiskunk]

i feel ya, i think i took amsterdams lame remark a lil too personal! But when u respond with an ignorant comment like that, its hard not to make a personal attack.

[pisshead]

all i get from him and that other guy are ad hominem attacks.

you probably watch the x-files! well, actually i've never seen a full episode.

you probably live in the desert worrying about aliens! i live in a city and don't worry about aliens.

you're a liberal! i'm actually more conservative, if you absolutely need a label.

anything to not have to address an issue.

[bhallg2k]

I reckon,that most liberals would dance for joy,if Israel was destroyed and all Jews slaughtered..but it ain't gonna happen..so don't git yer hopes up.

Have a good one...


Honestly, why do you make blanket statements about you think liberals are? What the fuck makes you think that liberals will dance for joy if Israel is obliterated? Just because most of us happen to think that Palestinians deserve their own country, it was after all taken from them, doesn't mean we want to see the death of Israel. Com-pro-mise. Can you say that?

Damn, that really pisses me off. You have every right to have your own conservative outlook, that's fine. But why would you so readily display an unwillingness to give respect to an opposing viewpoint, and beyond that make patently false statements just to support your own belief system? And you do it all the goddamn time, no matter what the topic!

Here, let me give it a try.

I think that social conservatives are inbred. Especially those from Texas. I think that's where the accent comes from; must be a genetic mutation caused by such a small gene pool. I also think the homophobia exhibited by most conservatives stems from the fact that most conservatives like cock and are afaid to admit it. How else do you explain sodomy laws? Classic Freudian psychology. You make illegal the things that cause temptation or embarrassment.

You're also racist because you're from the South. One never hears about cross burnings or KKK rallies anywhere but in the South. So being a Southerner, you must really hate black people. I don't need to say anything about Muslims. It's pretty obvious from your postings that you hate Muslims; you always seem so happy about them being bombed. I mean, wow, you're just an all-around hateful sumbitch, right?

That's not very Christian of you, Torog. Then again, maybe it is. After all, Christian are all really stupid. They handle venomous snakes to prove their faith, thinking God will save them from being bitten. How dumb is that shit? They're also greedy as hell. When they're on TV, if they're not magically healing people, they're always trying to get people to send more money. Who knew Jesus was so broke?

How's that for clueless, hateful rhetoric?

I'm serious about this though: people like you, and fairly, people on the left who make idiotic statements about the right, are why things don't get done in this country. You've got foolish idealogues on both sides like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Al Franken (if I could think of more liberal talk radio hacks, I would list them) playing on the fact that most people only respond politically to fear and misunderstanding, ruining what should be honest debate on any given subject. Then people of your ilk repeat the bullshit you hear other people say and all we're left with is this biting, hateful, not to mention stupid, fighting going on.

I'm fuckin' tired of it. This country will eventually be destroyed by idiots like you.

Have a good one, asshole!

And learn proper comma usage. It's annoying as fuck pausing unneccesarily all the time attempting to read your bullshit.

[Torog]

Howdy bhall,

You lament:" Honestly, why do you make blanket statements about you think liberals are? What the f*ck makes you think that liberals will dance for joy if Israel is obliterated? Just because most of us happen to think that Palestinians deserve their own country, it was after all taken from them, doesn't mean we want to see the death of Israel. Com-pro-mise. Can you say that? "

Well..you seem to not want the destruction of Israel,but you didn't say anything about Jews being slaughtered at the hands of muslim jihadists..do you also believe that Jews have a right to live ? Israel,was given to the Jews by God,it's never been a Palestinian land,except by theft,palestinians were invented by arabs,to create this whole mess..there's always been plenty of room for pali's,in other arab states..the whole purpose of Palestine,is to deny Israel's statehood and to steal holy sites that are important to Christians and Jews.

I have a liberal girlfriend,so I know all about liberal thinking and behaviour,add that to 46 years of life experience..and I'd say that I'm somewhat qualified to comment on liberals and liberalism. Everytime a democrapper gits in office,they want to virtually abandon Israel..that leads me to believe that the majority of liberals,want to see Israel fall..my girlfriend is also Jewish,and she shares much of my sentiments about Israel and the pali's. Like me..she believes that Israel should have never given up land won in the '67 war and that the security wall is a good idea. When arabs say that they want to destroy Israel and slay all Jews,runnin em into the sea,they ain't joking..but apparently,you think that they are..I assure you-they ain't..and liberals like you,are amongst their dearest allies..even though you're an infidel.

Have a good one ....

[bhallg2k]

Congratulations! You've missed the point. Show him what he's won...

[amsterdam]

Honestly, why do you make blanket statements about you think liberals are? What the fuck makes you think that liberals will dance for joy if Israel is obliterated? Just because most of us happen to think that Palestinians deserve their own country, it was after all taken from them, doesn't mean we want to see the death of Israel. Com-pro-mise. Can you say that?

Damn, that really pisses me off. You have every right to have your own conservative outlook, that's fine. But why would you so readily display an unwillingness to give respect to an opposing viewpoint, and beyond that make patently false statements just to support your own belief system? And you do it all the goddamn time, no matter what the topic!

Here, let me give it a try.

I think that social conservatives are inbred. Especially those from Texas. I think that's where the accent comes from; must be a genetic mutation caused by such a small gene pool. I also think the homophobia exhibited by most conservatives stems from the fact that most conservatives like cock and are afaid to admit it. How else do you explain sodomy laws? Classic Freudian psychology. You make illegal the things that cause temptation or embarrassment.

You're also racist because you're from the South. One never hears about cross burnings or KKK rallies anywhere but in the South. So being a Southerner, you must really hate black people. I don't need to say anything about Muslims. It's pretty obvious from your postings that you hate Muslims; you always seem so happy about them being bombed. I mean, wow, you're just an all-around hateful sumbitch, right?

That's not very Christian of you, Torog. Then again, maybe it is. After all, Christian are all really stupid. They handle venomous snakes to prove their faith, thinking God will save them from being bitten. How dumb is that shit? They're also greedy as hell. When they're on TV, if they're not magically healing people, they're always trying to get people to send more money. Who knew Jesus was so broke?

How's that for clueless, hateful rhetoric?

I'm serious about this though: people like you, and fairly, people on the left who make idiotic statements about the right, are why things don't get done in this country. You've got foolish idealogues on both sides like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Al Franken (if I could think of more liberal talk radio hacks, I would list them) playing on the fact that most people only respond politically to fear and misunderstanding, ruining what should be honest debate on any given subject. Then people of your ilk repeat the bullshit you hear other people say and all we're left with is this biting, hateful, not to mention stupid, fighting going on.

I'm fuckin' tired of it. This country will eventually be destroyed by idiots like you.

Have a good one, asshole!

And learn proper comma usage. It's annoying as fuck pausing unneccesarily all the time attempting to read your bullshit.


really?the kkk and the aryans had a march in chicago about 3 weeks ago?

you make some pretty broad accusations about the south.have you lived there?

[bhallg2k]

Congratulations! You too have missed the point (and didn't really read what I said). Show him what he's won...

And yes, I was born in GA and raised in SC.

[amsterdam]

so you are a hillbilly just like torog.

[Torog]

Congratulations! You've missed the point. Show him what he's won...
Howdy bhall,

Maybe I missed yer point..but you didn't answer my question..do you feel that Jew's should be slaughtered at the hands of muslim jihadists ?

Are you one of them fellers,that doesn't believe the Holocaust happened ?

Also,right-wing Christians,have declared their solidarity with Israel against the Islamic jihad..because we know-that those who stand against Israel..will fall.

Have a good one...

[bhallg2k]

I didn't answer because I thought your question was rhetorical.

I'm a liberal. We don't want anyone to die. We're not really allowed to think otherwise. :)

And of course the holocaust happened. Only morons think otherwise.

Listen, I'm not anti-Semitic just because I don't give my full-throated support to Israel.

I honestly think Christians' support of Israel is kind of selfish. If it wasn't in the Bible that people would be judged on their treatment of Israel (Joel 3:1-2), I don't think Christians would care what happens.

[amsterdam]

boy, did being a liberal change in the 60's.thats where you get that fun word quagmire from.

[Torog]

so you are a hillbilly just like torog.Howdy amsterdam,

Hey ! :mad: I resemble that remark ! :D LoL

Have a good one !

[Torog]

Howdy bhall,

Glad to hear your replies..Israel,is the only democracy in the region,as an American..I support democracies over brutal islamic dictatorships..whether I support Israel or not,as a Christian or otherwise.

Have a good one...

[amsterdam]

iraq is soon to follow

[Hydrizzle]

Iraq already is a democracy.... just not such an effective one yet. If the US withdrew supprot from Israel just because some durka-durka jihad mo-fo's scared us with thier widdle bombs, that would be an even bigger betrayal than the end of the Vietnam war.