"negative dilute", can I still sub?

[cleverclover]

I need to retake a SAM-10 50 urine screen for a hospital position. The first came back negative dilute. I have read through countless threads including N2 SUB and DILUTE threads entirely (thanks!) and plan on using N2's sub method w/ a 2oz bottle, a hand warmer, and my wife's urine which I've practiced :) but my question is, can I still sub?

1. Will they compare this sample (not my urine) in any way with the sample I gave them before (my urine diluted too much) that would cause me to fail for "tainting"? Creatinine, pH, etc?

2. Last time I was unobserved but will I be this time since it is a retest?

I really appreciate any quick experienced feedback I can get on this guys and I promise afterwards to post the entire story with great detail on the results thread after this is all over.

[Burnt Toast]

Nope, they dont compare samples because urine constituent levels will vary from sample to sample.

When they informed you of the diluted result, they were supposed to furnish you your specific gravity reading and creatinine levels. What were they?

[cleverclover]

Thanks Burnt, I knew I could count on you :)

First, I mistakenly wrote "SAM" but it's "SAP", as anyone who has had more than one of these before knows...

But no they didn't tell me that. It's for a travel healthcare staffing company and the guy on the phone just said literally, "Your urine screen came back negative dilute, we'll have to have you go in and take another test. I'm overnighting the Chain of Custody forms to you." I said, "I must've drank too much fluid" :) and he said, "Yeah that's usually the case, it's no problem."

I was going for just a little* dilute because I was passing Wallgreen's $20 home tests consistently without diluting, (4-5x a week smoker, B grade mostly, clean since Dec29th, 125lb, 5'8'' really fast metabolism and very little body fat.) Never tried first piss of the day. So anyway I skipped brkfst, had a cup of coffee, 2x B12 (x2days), and 1.5 32oz Gatorade bottles right up to the test around 12ish. I was pretty clear, not gonna lie. No creatine, no aspirin :(

I feel about 90% I could just use my own stuff midstream as long as it wasn't first and pass, but I'm paranoid right? and want to be 100%, so I'm deciding to sub. I'll let you know how it goes.

One thing that slightly bothers me Burnt, is that while I agree it's almost impossible to find actual web evidence of someone failing a test in the US by subbing besides it being outside temp., dirty or dilute, and that it is illegal to test for hormone levels, your statement, and that by others, that they ONLY test for banned substances is patently false. Read your post- Creatinine and specific gravity are two tests that do not involve banned substances and are involved in nearly every urine test for validity purposes. So it's not that much of a stretch to think they could check other biomarkers and compare. Still I cannot find one reliable piece of testimony of someone failing PURELY for using someone else's urine.

[Burnt Toast]

One thing that slightly bothers me Burnt, is that while I agree it's almost impossible to find actual web evidence of someone failing a test in the US by subbing besides it being outside temp., dirty or dilute, and that it is illegal to test for hormone levels, your statement, and that by others, that they ONLY test for banned substances is patently false.Ive never made such a statement - youve got me mistook for someone else. If you do any digging of my previous posts, Ive stated time and time again that specimen integrity checks have become SOP in recent years.

And again, they dont compare samples because, like Ive stated, constituent levels will vary from sample to sample. A persons sample whos had unsatisfactory creatinine & S/G can, days later, submit another sample with satisfactory creatinine and S/G -
that is providing that the donor had learned his/her lesson of not going overboard on the fluid intake.

And labs practicing in the US are prohibited from performing any type of genetic testing on samples collected for an employment-related drug test unless permission is granted by the donor on an entirely seperate and detailed consent form. Such donors are protected from genetic profiling under the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA), which was revised and signed into law in 2008 by then-President George W. Bush.
Even if genetic profiling laws were never put into place, genetic testing is very costly and complicated in process. With that being stated, if employers were really out to catch cheaters, it would be more economically feasible to the bean counters to utilize alternative testing methods, such as hair testing.

Finally, to answer your question as to a retest being observed due to dilution, Under DHHS regulations (as well as DOT regulations), an observed recollect is warranted if the creatinine level is between 2 - 5 mg/dL. It has been determined that while its physiologically possible for a donor to submit a sample with such a low creatinine level, such cases are extremely rare. Therefore, an observed collection is warranted to rule out the possibility of a donor attempting to submit a "non-human" urine sample.

[cleverclover]

Ok my bad then.

Thanks for your response, that's good to know. I'm not sure what the Creatinine level was like I said and frankly I'm not sure the Concerta clinic I'm going to does either, since they sent the lab off to ATN. I'm hoping not obviously. The chain of custody/lab requisition forms don't say anything to that effect at all. Either way I think my regular ol' piss will be good but I'm really hoping to sub.

[cleverclover]

Just got back, had that thing perfectly temped at 96F, my only slight concern is that it was diluted. she said she only had 1 cup of coffee so I don't see how?? but it wasn't very yellow. I'll let y'all know hopefully tomorrow. Sooooo thankful for this forum and people like Sec, N2, and Burnt.

Oh yeah and NOT OBSERVED:)

[Burnt Toast]

Whos Sec? Theres no member here of that handle..

Anyhoo, keep us posted of the results.