Sickly plants

[gigimarga]

I must have the worst green thumb on the planet because I can't even keep a weed alive :(

- Initially I watered them a lot until the runoff PH showed 6.5 so I might have inadvertently flushed the soil.
-Temperatures are 75-81. RH is ~40%

I have two seedlings in Ocean Forest soil.

One of them [attachment=o279817] has stunned growth and exhibits yellow leafs bent up and weird bubbles. (first photo)

- Because of the yellowing curled-up leaf, I flushed it with SledgeHammer flush to remove nutrients.
- After that, it started showing bubbles under the leaf but the leafs remained curled and no new growth is noticeable.

The second one is larger, [attachment=o279818] it was growing better but now has yellow spots and droopy leafs (second photo)


- I didn't water this one for a week after adjusting PH until it started getting droopy and the soil was dry (moisture meter was reading 2 at the bottom of the pot).
- After watering, the droopiness remained with actually some more pronounced curling, and it started showing yellow spots with yellowing of the leafs.


What should I do? Add nutes with some water? Let them dry first?

[bigsby]

You are over engineering this thing. Keep it simple. First off, the FFOF has nutrients in the soil so don't add anything. For that reason, you are better off starting them in a seedling mix for the first two weeks. Many strains can deal with the FFOF but some can't. I start mine in peat pots with seedling mix which I put into the FFOF. Temps and RH are good. You could bring the RH up to 65% but honestly that isn't going to make or break your garden. If you are in FFOF there will be no need to measure runoff pH until 4 - 6 weeks into the grow at which point you should be up-potting them anyway. I don't know what those bubble are. Never seen anything like it. The other one is definitely stressed and looks to be suffering nute burn. At this point, leave them alone. They are also looking over watered. Give them 4 - 6 days to dry out. Then start watering with pHed water @ 1x every 4 - 6 days unless they start looking wilted. They won't need much water. 1/2 a small Dixie cup should be enough. Keep us posted!

[gigimarga]

Looks like they're both dead. I transplanted them but I have no hopes. They look totally yellow and brown now. During the transplant I noticed that the roots were all shriveled up right out of the rapid rooters. Crap soil if you ask me. Why would they make it burn stuff?

[CanGroIt]

- Initially I watered them a lot until the runoff PH showed 6.5 so I might have inadvertently flushed the soil.

- Because of the yellowing curled-up leaf, I flushed it with SledgeHammer flush to remove nutrients.



If you did flush the soil, then the yellowing new growth would be signs of a deficiency....



Crap soil if you ask me.

Definitely not the soils fault.... You probably did flush everything the lil ones needed....and overwatered them at the same time.... They grow best with a wet-dry cycle....

What size pots did you have them in when those pics were taken???

Sounds like you made it hard on yourself.... You need to use the right size pots, for the size of plant, for the proper period of growth.... Seedling = Small pot....like 3" or so.... After a solid root zone is built, up pot to like a 6-10".... And then Flower in whatever size is best for your space and final plant size.... And like already mentioned, let the soil almost dry before watering again....

Oh and welcome to the community....and don't worry about them dying.... Not everyone has a successful first try....what matters is that you keeep on trying....:jointsmile:....let the journey begin....

CGI::::::

[gigimarga]

10" pots. Probably two gallon.

I took apart one of the rapid rooters to see what the root really looked like inside. Looks like it never really developed out of the rapid rooter. It reached the bottom but never branched out.

Does that look like damage from the soil (which was outside of the rapid rooter), over-watering, or too much light?

279848

[gigimarga]

I case anyone is interested, these were the plants right after transplant.
[attachment=o279849]

[attachment=o279850]

[CanGroIt]

It was definitely over watering that killed em.... 2gal of soil for such a small plant would have worked had you not watered them so much.... Like bigsby mentioned, about half a small dixie cup would be enough moisture to last a couple days or so for a rooting seedling....

What you need to understand about roots in soil - Roots want to stretch and find the very last bit of moisture in the soil.... If you make it too easy for them, i.e. over-watering them, the roots simply give up.... However you don't want to let the soil dry to the point of stress either.... Practice is the only way to find how much, for how long, works....

So you going to give it another go??? You mentioned too much light.... What size lamps you working with??? And how close were they???

CGI::::::

[gigimarga]

LED 90W about 15 inches away. No heat but I was worried it's too much light because those things are bright. Much brighter than any CFL I've seen so far in the Hydro store.

The changes I'm making for the next attempt.

One plant I've germinated and planted in rapid rooter. It's just starting to sprout under the humidity dome which has a heat pad underneath. I will let it sprout after which I will and develop more roots under some light. That I will transplant into a hydro bucket with an air pump and clay pebbles. I want to give hydro a try as it's easier to get air to the roots and easier to adjust/measure pH and PPM. The water in the hydro bucket is 6.0 pH and contains nutrients at a quarter of strength for the recommended fox farms feeding schedule.

The second plant is germinating now. This seed looks bigger than normal and it seems to be taking longer to show a root with the paper towel method. Once it's germinated, I plan to put it in a party cup which contains of Sunshine Advanced Rain Forest, which is supposed to be a no-burn formula and has endomicorrhizae in it, mixed with 25% perlite. Once the plant survives that, I plan to move it to the 10 inch pots with a mix of the Rain Forest, Ocean Forest, and 25% perlite.

On the party cup, how much water should I add? Are five holes for drainage enough? Should I avoid getting water on top of the seed? How often will I need to re-water that? Should I have a humidity dome on it until it sprouts?

[bigsby]

Your LED @ 15" will be fine. Do you know the wattage of each diode? Wattage dependent you won't want it much closer than 12" anyway, not b/c they will burn or bleach the plant but b/c of efficiencies gained from proper light spread. I keep my 3 watt diodes at 24" for starters and then move them down to 12" a week after the first set of true leaves appear. Note there are far wiser LED gurus here that can give you better guidance in this regard.

Concerning your seedling in soil, here is the standard recommendation. First, 5 drain holes are fine so long as they are big enough to serve the purpose. You can use a hot phillips head screw driver. Also put a couple of three holes in the side, low down. Add your seedling mix. Before planting flush with 2x water - 8oz cup = 16 oz flush. This is always good practice with any seedling mix no matter what the bag says. Let the medium drain thoroughly (1 hour?). It should still be thoroughly wet. Use a pencil to make a starter hole. Be VERY gentle handling the spout as any damage at this stage will likely cause death. Place your sprout such that the seed head is just below the top of the soil. Sprinkle in a bit of dried mix to fill the hole and cover the seed - it will only take a pinch. Then use a spray bottle set at a fine mist to water the seed into place. You can thoroughly wet it using the spray bottle. Add more mix if needed. You can cover with a humidity dome (cellophane) if you like but be sure to remove it as soon as the sprout pushes through the soil. If you use a humidity dome you probably will not need to re-water until after the spout appears. Even then you shouldn't require much water as the soil will be holding quite a bit from the flush. I use the spray bottle on seedlings 1x day during the first 2 - 3 days. Just enough to wet the surface with a little sinking in. Reduce water as the sprout becomes bigger and stronger. Over watering can lead to problems so if in doubt, leave it alone. Stretch the water progressively to encourage root development. Using an LED you will require less water than others who use standard lighting. By the 2nd week I am down to 1x every 4 - 6 days. And don't water until you get runoff until your little plant is well developed. There is no need. The roots aren't that developed. Water logging the medium just encourages issues like root rot and/or infestation. Keep it simple and remember, less is more. That and read all the stickies in the basic grow forum. When you're done that, read some more. ;)

[gigimarga]

90 diodes*1 watt. I measured the actual draw and it's 86 watt which is better than first one I got which was only pulling 80. These UFO lights seem to very different from one to the other. I didn't notice any stretching so I assume they have plenty of light. I was just worried that I was giving them too much light.

As an update, I finally got the seed that goes into soil to germinate. It shows a very small root now but I'll probably plant it shortly and leave it in the dark until it sprouts.
The seed in the rapid rooter has already sprouted and is slowly opening. I might put it under one 40 watt cfl today and then tomorrow turn the UFO back on.

Some more changes I have made to my setup is, replaced the aluminum foil with mylar, added an oscilating fan and created flops for the intake/exhaust.

[gigimarga]

Quick question on feeding the plant in soil. Will it need any nutrients while in the Dixie cup at any strength? I plan on using big bloom from fox farms so I keep it organic. The fox farms feeding schedule says to use 6 tsp of big bloom 2 times a week with every other watering during the first week. That seems like nuking the plant but I'm not sure as most of my problems so far seem to have been from too much water.

[pushit]

Quick question on feeding the plant in soil. Will it need any nutrients while in the Dixie cup at any strength? I plan on using big bloom from fox farms so I keep it organic. The fox farms feeding schedule says to use 6 tsp of big bloom 2 times a week with every other watering during the first week. That seems like nuking the plant but I'm not sure as most of my problems so far seem to have been from too much water.

Are you planting back into FFOF. That stuff is pretty hot for seedlings. I personally use FF Light Warrior for the dixie cups then when its time for transplant i go into the ffof. Pretty much any seed starter works good for that stage as far as i know. Using FFOF i pretty much just throw out the FF feeding schedule. I just add 6.5ish phd water til about the 3rd or 4th week of flower. No nutes. As long as youre doing routine transplants you should be good to go. This is pretty much the same thing that Bigsby already said in the second post.

[bigsby]

What pushit said. Most people want to feed their plants because they think it will make them grow bigger and stronger faster. If a little is good then more must be better, right? In reality, less is more especially when you are starting out. Knowing how your particular strain responds is as important as anything else. This is even more true when using FF or some other soil with nutes already added. Look, the company wants you to use their nutes right? The more you use the better it is for their bottom line. I start with 1/8 recommended strength and move my way up to 1/4 watching how the plants respond. Watch for a white tip at the end of the leaf. This tells you that the plant has reached their limit. But again, if you are using FF, up-pot on a schedule every 4 - 6 weeks and nothing until flower.

With the FF the most you will really need is a bit of Phosphorus and Potassium boost in flower, week three / four as pushit noted.There are some caveats like the fact that strains vary in what they like / can stand or that grow style (organic vs. non-organic, dirt vs. hydroponic) does alter some of these variables.

[gigimarga]

I don't really want to make them bigger. I just want to help them not die. The stuff I use now isn't from Fox Farms but it's light. Once I transplant the plant from the dixie cup, I plan to use a mix of this stuff and FFOF. Or should I just use full-out FFOF? BTW, the dixie cup I planted the seed into yesterday, has some holes on the side now and it seems like the soil is being pulled from the sides. Does that mean it has lost too much moisture? Should I spray around the sides?

[pushit]

I don't really want to make them bigger. I just want to help them not die. The stuff I use now isn't from Fox Farms but it's light. Once I transplant the plant from the dixie cup, I plan to use a mix of this stuff and FFOF. Or should I just use full-out FFOF? BTW, the dixie cup I planted the seed into yesterday, has some holes on the side now and it seems like the soil is being pulled from the sides. Does that mean it has lost too much moisture? Should I spray around the sides?

If you are gonna be using FFOF dont add anything. That soil mix is already as close to perfect as you can get in my eyes.

[bigsby]

You are spending too much time wanting to make it perfect. Leave them be. Here is a nice little guide that will provide you with some good background reading to fill your time. It's a nice little primer. Marijuana Cultivation - Wikibooks, open books for an open world (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Marijuana_Cultivation)

How big are the holes? A little soil loss is fine. The soil immediately around the holes will dry out more quickly. That doesn't mean the whole cup is dry. You can spray the sides if you like but I don't think it's needed. Oh and don't handle the cup as that will agitate the soil and encourage loss for sure. Spray 1x / day to get them rooted (soak the top part of the soil around the seedling with enough water to reach an inch or two into the soil - not much). Once they are up and running set your water schedule to every 3 - 5 days. They will need more water as the get bigger. They will let you know if you aren't giving them enough water (wilting). And as we've both been saying, no added nutes needed. Just up-pot every 3 - 6 weeks depending on the length of your veg cycle.

[gigimarga]

Thanks for all that information. It makes me a lot more confident about this grow.

Another question about the water though, I finally got my TDS tester today because I wanted to makes sure that my water is ok. Turns out the water out of my fosset is around 800 ppmand filtered water I use around 450 ppm. Are those figures really high? Should I switch to RO water with a little added calcium and magnesium?

I know I'm going to stop drinking my filtered water now.

[bigsby]

I meant to add that if you don't have your pH pen yet you risk serious harm so that's good. The vast majority of problems are related to improper pH balance. It is critical. Can't say it enough. I don't think your tap water ppm is going to be an issue. Mine ranges between 650 - 850 depending on the time of year, or so it seems. That said, I don't know tons about it so read up and perhaps post in one of the other forums. I don't think it has caused me any issues if that helps.

A little more 411 on what I do with watering - starting on day 4 or 5 after they pop up I give them 1/2 dixie cup every 4 days. I dispense directly around the seedling until they have 2 or 3 sets of leaves after which I increase water. Small roots so no need to water the whole pot. Plus it is likely still holding water from the flush. Also, It is always a good idea to wet the surface of the soil with your spray before hitting it with the water. This prevents pooling that can result in uneven distribution below the surface. For those that add nutes (not you gigimarga ;)), it is good practice to give your plants a dose of plain water before watering in the nutes. Wetting the soil first allows more even distribution at the root zone plus you will use less nutes.

[Esteban1]

As Bigsby eloquently explains & you mention as well.... Keep it simple. Imho relax bro cuz it is just that.... a weed. You will figure it out, this is guaranteed! Keep positive & visualize your outcome & it will look something like my 1st grow or better still a frigg'n Da Vinci!!


279909279910


:abduct:

[gigimarga]

Esteban, keeping it simple has not worked that well for me. Failed two grows so far because I kept it too simple. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication and without knowledge and experience, it is not easily achieved.

PS Nice harvest. Is that a Sativa? What kind?

[bigsby]

gigi you are right about that. You must cover the basics in order to achieve results. But beyond that, keep it simple. The most important elements to a successful first grow?

1. Choose a good soil. The more I see the more I like FFOF. I'm a recent convert but it sure is easy.
2. Take care of the water pH and figure out just how much water your plants need. This takes time.
3. Choose a strain that is easy to grow. Nothing exotic. Big Bank, La Confidential, OG Kush, etc.
4. If you are feeding nutes start at 1/4 or even 1/8 strength and work your way up.
5. Resist the urge to tinker with the plants or their feeding schedule.
6. Read everything you can get your hands on. Can't say that enough!

[gigimarga]

The grow was going ok but today I ran into another problem. When the seed in the rapid rooter first sprouted, I gave it just a little bit of CFL light since I thought that maybe last time I gave them too much light and it started stretching.

I am giving it normal amounts of light now but it has stretched and today it actually bent. (see photos)

I came up with a system to support the stem but the bend looks pretty ugly to me. How bad does that look? Do you think it will recover?

Besides the support, I also got the light to be on 20/4 instead of 18/6 hoping that it will give it enough boost to overcome this.

[Dutch Pimp]

that...is one strange looking stem

[bigsby]

They are pretty fragile at this stage. It may recover although I'm betting not...

[Dutch Pimp]

I find it very easy to germinate seeds directly in a 18oz cup. The KISS principle.

[gigimarga]

I was planning to put this one in Hydro so the rapid rooter was necessary.

[gigimarga]

The rapid rooter was dry as a bone. The roots are white though so definitely not over-watering anymore :doh:

I think the addition of the blowing fan really dries out the soil and rapid rooters much, much faster.

Germinating another feminized auto blueberry now. I only have 2 left so I really hope that this one will take because it would really suck to get to the last one knowing I won't be able to get a blueberry if it fails. I'm going to keep two rapid rooters in now so I can check on moisture level.

The auto white widow seems to be doing fine so far. Almost have to mist the soil twice a day as it feels very very dry within 12 hours.

The oscillating fan speed is on low but it's not a very large space.

Once I get the blueberry going in hydro, I hope it will catch up with the white widow so I can have them done by the solstice.

[bigsby]

I find it very easy to germinate seeds directly in a 18oz cup. The KISS principle.

Hey DP - so no paper towel? Just straight into the soil? I know others who do that. I always like to see the tap root but that doesn't mean it's a good method. You pre-soak?

[Dutch Pimp]

Hey DP - so no paper towel? Just straight into the soil? I know others who do that. I always like to see the tap root but that doesn't mean it's a good method. You pre-soak?

yes..I soak 12-24 hours in a shot glass of water.....I have lots of old seeds.
If I don't soak; the shell coats won't break open for the cotyledons.

[gigimarga]

The one in the rapid rooter is totally dry and the stem is very thin. No chance there's any water in it.
Hopefully I'll have more luck on the next try.

[bigsby]

Hey if you're using rapid rooters then my advice is null and void. I have not experience with them. It is possible, perhaps likely that they need different care than a seedling mix.

[gigimarga]

Unfortunately I didn't take the advice of using two rooters and checking the dryness on the second because I thought it was too late to do it since I already had the seed sprouting in it.

That was a BAD decision. I should have just had the second as a relative dryness indicator. Also, since the top of the rapid rooter tray was was off due to the early stretching, and with the fan blowing around, it speed dried the rooter, killing the plant in the process.

Now I got a taller lid for the tray and with lower lights, will attempt it again. Also the water level in the tray had to be above the ridges not just below.

[bigsby]

Turn the fan off. You won't need it until they are healthy seedlings heading into veg stage. Let them gain some confidence first! Keep at it. You'll get it right and be off the the races. It just takes a little practice. Payoff only comes with work. You're almost there!

[gigimarga]

My hydro bucket works great. It started growing rice just from being plugged in. In room daylight.

[gigimarga]

At a week in the dixie cup and the seedling looks good. Only misting once a day now as it dries very quickly. :)

One more change I did was add a couple of 23W 6500K CFLs. Definitely more blue now.


How soon should I transplant? Should I transplant directly into ocean forest or a mix?

How much should I water the pot I'm transplanting into before and after the transplant?

What's the best procedure for transplanting so I don't injure the stem or the roots?

[bigsby]

There are lots of tutorials on transplanting. Read the stickies in the basic grow forum. You can transplant once they have their first set of true leaves, the ones that are serrated. I wait for two sets but my starter pots are a little bigger than dixie cups. You can sink them directly into the FFOF. As for watering, again you need to read up but generally, water them in after transplant and then water once every 3 - 5 days. You will get a feel for what they need. Also, their needs will increase as they get bigger and again once you flip to flower.