DWC, I need some advice and guidance

[Salvein211]

Hello, this is my first DWC grow, but I have quite a few soil grows under my belt. I haven't started yet, Im trying to get preparation done first :thumbsup:

So I am doing a 15 basket DWC grow. I am using eight 18gal totes made by steralite. I have 12" diameter baskets, 2 per tote, which means one tote will have one lady all by itself. The air pump im using is a 385 watt pond aerator, 300L per minute, 0.05MPa, and it comes with a 20 outlet adapter. Here's my first question: If I plan on running eight 5" air discs, one per tote, will I need to do something with the other outlets on the air pump? Will I need to buy an adapter to fit just 8? Also, will a 5" disc from this pump be enough for one 18gal tote? Something else I'm unsure about is air pump power quality. If it's possible to run 8 legs off a 20 outlet adapter, would running additional legs to the same tote increase the amount of air pumped into the tote? Or By adding another leg, (#9), to say one tote, will it just divide the power by that fraction? Hope that question made sense..

The other thing I really wanted to ask about is nutrient solution in the reservoir. Starting out, and further along in the grow. So I have foxfarms hydro nutrients. Tigerbloom, bigbloom, and Growbig. So in the beginning, I wont be using tigerbloom as it says not to. But with bigbloom, it calls for 2tsp > gal. And with growbig, it calls for 1tsp > gal. Here's my question: When making up the reservoir, do you add the BB and GB doses per gal, or individually per gal? So should every gallon of water in the tote have a ratio of 1tsp GB and 2tsp BB? I haven't tested how much water I will need to get about 2 inches of a basket underwater, but lets say it's 10gal. The only other way I could think of mixing the nutes, is say 5gal treated with BB, and the other 5gal treated with GB. Also, do nutrients go bad after so long? I've had the fox farms trio pack for over a year. I placed half the concentrations in jugs, then kept the other halfs in their original containers. Can I use these for the grow? I would imagine air has gotten to these for a while now...

So I do plan on using hydrotron and rapid rooter plugs. I've read that you don't put the newly sprouts into the dwc system right away, but actually to grow them a little before? If I plan on transplanting them into there baskets, how big should they be when I do so? I realize these are big baskets, and I didnt know what size I needed when I bought em, but I know I can just veg longer to make up for it. Also, I'm using two 400 watt MH/HPS batwings as my light setup. Im thinking I may need one more...

Thanks for reading, sorry for the long post but I figured I'd get it all out there.

[tinytoon]

1) with your air question I guess the input I could give there would be to buy 8 more 5" disks and run 2 disks per tote. The more air the better and this will cut u down to only 4 ports to block off on the adapter.
2) I have never used FF nutes but as for mixing, you can do that anyway you want to. Using your 10 gal estimate you can fill the tote and add directly to tote and stir or you can put 9 gals in tote and last gal mix 10x strength or lastly mix each gal seperatly. I would go with #1 and just mix all in tote.
3) Make sure you rinse and soak that Tron in PH balanced water until the water you are soaking in stays at the PH you started with while soaking.
4) Yes your gonna need another light. Using the batwing style I hope you have a way to deal with heat.

[Salvein211]

Thank's for the reply!

For #1, that makes sense. Are there things you can by that block the outlets on the air pump divider?

For #2 I was kind of confused a little still... On the nutrient bottles, for GB it says 1 tsp >> gal, and for BB 2tsp >> gal. So if we use a 10 gal estimate, each gallon in the tote will need 1 tsp of GB and 2 tsp of BB OR is it that 5 of the gal's will need the 1 tsp of GB and the other 5 gal will need 2 tsp of BB? So in option 1 we'd have a total of 10tsp of GB and 20 tsp of BB instead of option 2 of 5tsp GB and 10tsp of BB. I think im convinced it's option one, just wanted clarification cause I'm new to rez mixing.

For #3, excellent, I bet this solves a lot of Ph problems down the road. So you want to essentially get the tron to a 5.8ish Ph? Any idea on what Ph is expected of the tron before I soak it? So like what water Ph will I need to soak the tron in is my question.

For #4, yeah those lights dont output much for heat which is nice. Optimal room temp is 76 degrees I believe, and water temp in rez is optimal at 68 degrees? Fahrenheit that is.

[tinytoon]

1) I would check into some vaccum caps, bought at any auto parts store or Lowes and Home dePot.
2) For 10 gal mix you would need 10 tsp of GB (50 ml) and 20 tsp of BB (100ml)
3) First start of soaking new Tron PH is probably high 7's or so. 5.8 would be the magic number you want to get to and that is what you want your soaking water at, 5.8
4) Yes rez at 68 is great. Have you used these lights before?? You might be surprized how much heat they put out. What size area are we talking about??

[Salvein211]

I went to my local Nursery and found that they have those clamps that go on the extra outlets I will have for my air pump. :thumbsup: I just need to run a little bit of hose off each outlet, then clamp it up.

So for the Tron soaking... Adjust water at 5.8 Ph and drop the Tron in, let soak for a few hours? After, check Ph, see where it's at, and repeat until you are at 5.8?

I have used these lights before, on a few grows. But, I have never had a grow in the summer months... The two I would run kept the room at about 78-80 degrees. The room is about 90 sq FT with approx 8' ceilings.

One question I just thought of: When doing DWC, if your Rez is like 80gal total (estimation of 8totesx10gal) and it will probably go down to maybe 65-70gal, do you have a crap load of water off hand for the topping off/change process? The whole purpose would be to eliminate chlorinated water by letting it sit, but to do that I would need a LOT of sitting water... Any suggestions, tips? All I have access to is tap water..

Oh and lastly, I was browsing the DIY carbon filter and couldn't help but think they only apply to inline systems? I have a very small intake/outtake for fresh air for the room, something that would never fit a filter I'd like to make. Could I make a filter that just sits in one place, has a fan that pulls the air from the room into it to scrub? Maybe put it up high near the ceiling because odor rises? My theory is if I did that, it would stop the stinky air from filling up the room, and possibly leaking out. (Just a theory, I could be way off). I would also have a fan on the other side of the room where it would be pulling outside air in.

[SmokeMyPiece]

Those are some giant res' man. Why not use a 5Gallon bucket per plant, or are you goin for Trees?
This way you could individually address each plant, should they have a problem. (deficiency).

Always use fresh nutes.
When you see that your res is low, top with ph-d plain water.
--Say I had a 5G res; Once iv'e put in 5G of plain(topping water), its time for a fresh mix.


Could I make a filter that just sits in one place, has a fan that pulls the air from the room into it to scrub?
Make one, it works! I made one as a back up and it works well.
277709

[Salvein211]

Hey SMP, I figured they would be big, I just didn't know if they'd be overkill or what. Those totes are the only size of container I could think of that would fit the baskets I bought without spending the extra money on individual black 5gal buckets which are like 7-8$ each. So in hindsight, I spent half of that. Also, when I bought the totes, drilled the holes and etc, I thought only having 8 air stones would be nice as opposed to 15. But as Tiny said, I should put two in a tote so I didn't plan that right. But, like you said, I'm hopeful to grow trees since I've got the space to do it. Today I shined a 500W MH into a tote to check if it was light proof, its not. So it looks like good ol fashion spray paint?

[Salvein211]

Oh and I forgot, that is an excellent looking filter! I imagine thats how I'm going to make mine. How big of a fan is that?

[SmokeMyPiece]

Today I shined a 500W MH into a tote to check if it was light proof, its not. So it looks like good ol fashion spray paint?
Havnt tried spray paint, but I use black duct tape.

I think its around 6" diameter fan.

[Salvein211]

Black duct tape works good, do you 2ply it?

I had a question about watering right when the sprout is introduced to light. If using RR plugs and when they jump out, they'll get placed in a bowl like pot that roots can grow through with the tron. Can I just use ph'd water for the first week, or do I need some kind of nute mix? Also, Im thinking hand watering for the 2nd week will be needed. Same question.

[tinytoon]

Plain PH'd water is exactly what you want for first couple weeks and hand watering will be the chore until roots pop out of basket and head for water. What you wrote for soaking is correct. just rinse and repeat until water stays at the PH you put it at before soaking.

[Salvein211]

Thank you Tiny and SMP

[Salvein211]

I had a question about soaking the tron. The first soak didnt do the trick, so do i need to dry the tron before soaking it in lower ph again? Or can I just soak for a while, check the newly raised ph, strain the tron, and place back in another container with say 5.8 ph? Also, is it effective to use lower then 5.8 initially to make this process quicker?

[tinytoon]

no need to dry tron, just dump water and start again. It might take 3-4 soaks before you get PH down. You could try lower than 5.8 but remember if you go to far then it has to be brought up and trust me you dont want to play seesaw with PH. How long you soak it for? Only takes couple hours or so per soak.

[Salvein211]

Hey Tiny thanks for the reply. The first soak I did for just over an hour, the 2nd I did for about 3 hours. The third soak has been over night but I think they are Ph'd now.

I've had another Ph question since the dawn of time and now I remember to ask it. So when I was dropping the ph of the water before I put the tron to soak, I went to far down, had to bring it up, then slightly down again. I remember in my first few grows, I was juvinile and when adjusting Ph, I'd go to far down, then up, then down, about 4 times. I just really would like to know if this has any affects on anything? I notice once you have some of the Ph up or down in, the rate at which the Ph increases or decreases per same volume of added mix isn't as much... It makes sense to me that the molecules need more to grab on to since the water isnt as pure, or is it a dissolvent thing? In this case, does temperature matter?

[Salvein211]

I just checked the Ph of my over night soak and it was 6.7! :( It seemed to be holding at 5.8ish before the last soak and I know I ph'd the 3rd water batch before I dropped tron in there... so Im not quite sure what happened.

[tinytoon]

If it was new tron did you rinse the tron before the soaking? The thing you want to remember about PH adjustment is a little at a time. As far as temp I believe temp swings must change the PH to a certain extent, if not the why would a PH pen have Temp compensation? lol. there was a really good ph write up that someone posted a while back, I will see if I can find it.

[Salvein211]

Yeah I ran a garden hose through the tron bag for an hour, tried to shift the pellets around through the cycle. (I poked a lot of small holes in the bag bottom before I rinsed of course. Wasnt seeing any red residue afterwards. The hose water pH was like 7.3 . And I guess I was foolish with the soaking because I used hose cold water. I should just plan on using heated bath tub water from now on? How else can you get large quantities of good temp water? Yeah I kind of learned my lesson with the pH swings.. I just was wondering if it had immense consequences or what not. I took chemistry in college so I understand a lot of the molecule reactions, but still with pH, I never considered temp I guess. But with chemistry, we studied solubility and concentrations, not so much levels and consequences. I guess thats BIO Chem.. lol Yeah If you find that link I'd love to take a read, thanks.

[tinytoon]

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/192189-why-ph-fluctuates.html
Not exactly what I was thinking it contained but still very good read with allot of info Hydro growers should know :jointsmile:

[Salvein211]

Thanks for posting that Tiny, that was a good read. Takes me back to when I was in chemistry class talking about the molecules. Even with an understanding of it, it still seems way over my head to adjust pH by making your own nutrient base. I personally will stick with a premade buy in the store nutrient pack. I heard about FF, so that's what Im going to run with unless anyone knows of cheaper or better for your buck nutes. Back to chem class, I know temperature directly effects solubility, so it does effect pH levels but only in a sense of maybe how easily the plant can uptake nutes? But as for my previous posting I am still fuzzy on pH. When making a water bath to soak the tron, Im just going to use room temp from now on. My only theory is if you check the pH of water that is somewhat cold, and by adding your ph upper or downer, it wont fully dilute until it hits room temp? So therefore, if you get an acceptable ph level at cold temp, its going to be altered at room temp... due to the excess molecules finally being absorbed.. Haha I hope thats all it is!

[Salvein211]

Ok so I think I got a conclusive answer on pH and temperature proportions. I went to the local nursery and they have these premade pH and ppm bags with accurate already known levels. This is how you check your meters, and calibrate them. On these bags, they have temp scales, and with pH, a range of 32F to 120F, the range difference in pH is only 0.15 total. So the 20-30 degree difference from tap water to room temp is negligible.

[tinytoon]

thanx for putting that last bit in. I knew temp affected the PH but didnt know that it was so minor.

[Salvein211]

I think I am now at the stage that requires nutes. I have a few questions and concerns here. So out of my tap, I have a naturally high pH of like 7.3 . I know nutes lower the pH, so im assuming I should put the nutes in the rez before I adjust the ph? Also, I have my ppm meter, I see the ranges I need on fox farms nutrient schedule and such. But when it calls out for a certain amount of concentrate per gallon and you give the rez that, shouldnt the ppm be in the specified range? If not, what do I do? If the ppm is too high, add more water to the rez? too low, take out and add a touch of more nutes? Also, doesnt pH upper/downer affect the ppm range too? Insight on this would be insanely appreciated. Thanks

[tinytoon]

I have never had a problem with PH adjustment affecting ppm's. With your mixture if ppm's to high dilute with water. If to low add a very small amount at a time. 1 thing to remember is that our nute manufactures dont gauge their mix on what is grown here. It will be trial and error until you get your own mix where you want it to be.

[Salvein211]

Awesome Tiny, thanks for the reply. Yeah I thought if you abided by their nute schedule you'd be close, good to know. Also, with pH not affecting the ppm level, I can pH at the very end when I get my nute mix in the rez at an ok ppm range. So I tried out the 18gal totes and as far as one would want to get in a project before backing out, I decided to go the 5gal bucket way. Had to many problems arise, but also it makes more sense and it's way easier.

[Salvein211]

Ok so im a little confused with what ppm level i should go with. By following fox farms tsp/gal for big bloom and grow big, the ppm range says it should be about 1120-1260. I measured as acurately as I could and when I checked my ppm with my primo hanna, it was only 400!? I did a google and find a lot of different answers. Some saying 400 is ok, but with different nutes, not ff. But anyways, im off by 700.. And also, adding more nutes makes ppm go down? Is there a good thread explaining that? Thanks

[tinytoon]

you would have to search the site for a topic on nutes and as far as ppm goes down with more nutes doesn't make a bit of sence

[CanGroIt]

Is there a good thread explaining that? Thanks

Here ya go ------> http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/198444-who-can-help-diagnose-my-issue.html <------I just helped someone else understand nutes and ppm levels.... Read through the two pages and if you still have questions, ask them back here on your thread....

And when adding nutes, ppms rise....anyone who says different is probably dyslexic....

CGI::::::

[Salvein211]

I've been trying to reply for days but I think this site was on the fritz. Thanks for posting that thread, It was a good read. A few things I picked up are that ppm increases if you add anything to the water that isn't pure water. So in my instance was operator error. My big dilemma is fox farms schedule and what they say you should abide to. I followed their 2nd week dosing which was 1tbsp of bb, and 2tsp of gb per gal, and with my rez at like 3.75gal initially, I checked the ppms on all of them and they hover around 400 ppm. The chart calls out for 1120-1260. How in the heck would you get that high with this kind of dosage? I read a lot of threads and it seems like people increase their nute strength almost weekly? Well if your plants are drinking the water and everything is going good, they should be drinking water/nutes at same proportions.. I know this wouldn't happen unless you had exact pH for your strain but still. Im confused on how you would achieve this. Also, I read that 400 is ok for some strains to begin with.. but I think you still end up increasing ppms.. Im running two strains in my grow this time. White Skunk indica and blackberry sativa. How do you know what ppms are good for what strains? Below I explain how I understand your pH altering and finding the best pH possible, but how do you do this with ppms? What am I missing..

I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct? Then if ppms are dropping on a day to day basis due to your pH changes, you chart the most significant change in pH which will be the best pH to run your plants for optimum nute intake? Also, you can dose the shit out of your plants when you have the correct pH? When your plants burn its directly related to pH levels, salt levels.. ? Im a newbie so I wouldnt even try this until I complete my first dro grow. Thanks for reading.

[CanGroIt]

My big dilemma is fox farms schedule and what they say you should abide to. I followed their 2nd week dosing which was 1tbsp of bb, and 2tsp of gb per gal, and with my rez at like 3.75gal initially, I checked the ppms on all of them and they hover around 400 ppm. The chart calls out for 1120-1260. How in the heck would you get that high with this kind of dosage? -The recommended doses on the bottles are just guides to give you an idea of how much is enough. But if you are at 400ppms and want to be at 1200, simply triple the amount nutes in the water....


I read a lot of threads and it seems like people increase their nute strength almost weekly? Well if your plants are drinking the water and everything is going good, they should be drinking water/nutes at same proportions.. I know this wouldn't happen unless you had exact pH for your strain but still. Im confused on how you would achieve this. -After a couple of grows, you will notice that plants will drink more water than nutes when temps are too warm.... And will eat up nutes like candy when temp is correct.... pH is not the only factor that determines nutrient uptake.... Ideally, you want them to take in more nutes than water, proportionately....


Also, I read that 400 is ok for some strains to begin with.. but I think you still end up increasing ppms.. Im running two strains in my grow this time. White Skunk indica and blackberry sativa. How do you know what ppms are good for what strains? Below I explain how I understand your pH altering and finding the best pH possible, but how do you do this with ppms? What am I missing.. -You aren't missing anything other than te experience.... Right now you are over-thinking the situation.... 400ppms is a good place to start, work your way up from their until you notice a negative effect....which can be easily fixed if caught before it becomes a prob.... But as long as you build nuts tolerance correctly, you shouldn't have a prob with over ferting....


I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct? -If I'm reading this part correctly, you water level drops and your ppms rise correct??? Is that before or after you top off your res??? Because if you didn't top off the res with fresh water, then you are taking an incorrect reading.... Your ppms should never be higher than when you initially placed fresh nutes into the res for that week....

Then if ppms are dropping on a day to day basis due to your pH changes, you chart the most significant change in pH which will be the best pH to run your plants for optimum nute intake? -pH fluctuates, plain and simple.... It fluctuates even more when you have small amounts of water.... What you want is to get the pH to fluctuate in the area that is best for nutrient uptake.... For example, if you notice that your pH is fluctuating up, you want to counter it and drop it so it will fluctuate from low to high.... So if when you topoff a fresh res and you leave your pH and 5.6 and 12hrs later it's at 6.1.... You drop it down to 5.2 so as to find out if 12 hrs later it will be at 5.7.... Know what I mean....find the balance...

Also, you can dose the shit out of your plants when you have the correct pH? -No, you will kill them.... In this case less IS more....not really but you never want to dose the shit out of them....until you know what you are doing....

When your plants burn its directly related to pH levels, salt levels.. ?-In some cases yes but not always.... It's very easy to over fert in hydro.... Learn to build nute tolerance....

Im a newbie so I wouldnt even try this until I complete my first dro grow. Thanks for reading.

:jointsmile:....

CGI::::::

[Salvein211]

Wow CGI, thanks for dissecting my post :) Greatly appreciated! :thumbsup:

Ok so yeah I'm not going to follow the bottles advice for ppm range. Is there anyway to find what ppm range strains generally like? I know some strains tolerate or have more of a resistance to nute burn, but surely there are others that just love additional nutes?

Yeah your right, im over thinking the situation lol. I guess what I'm going to try is to increase ppms by 100 every time I change out the rez. So next time I will shoot for 500 and just see what happens. And of course if the plants start to develop a problem, I will adjust accordingly. (Dilute) ..

Good advice with the pH, I'm starting a log and I will check daily or every two days were the ppms and pH are going. But thats the FUN of hydro! I already enjoy it more then soil.

When I said ... Quote "I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct?" Unquote ...... I haven't had to add any top off water. I was thinking in theory, I haven't actually seen any changes or have a need to take action right now. I was thinking upon how I would find the pH my ladies flourish at. But as you said, pH jumps around, usually in one direction, and countering this is important. I understand that fully. And time will tell how I need to counter it. So that gives me my answer on how to find a good pH range to try and sit at.

My biggest concerns was that I wasn't having enough nutes in my water for the plants, and when I saw my ppm range being low compared to the bottle... I was lost. But really, the ladies are doin great. Thanks again for the advice.

[tinytoon]

how old are your plants??

[Salvein211]

Hey Tiny, I think they are about 3 weeks old(give a few days, I dont think they are younger then that at all). They kind of had their life cycle delayed a little due to me changing the rez containers and what not, but for the last week, a pure 7 days, they have been loving life and growing well! They are pure green and the roots are just now starting to poke through and enter the water so today im lowering the water level so there is more of an air gap. I think they have been in this rez for 7 days or so. The plants have still been uptaking nutes I think because I had my bubbles bouncing into the bottom of the baskets. :thumbsup: On a side note, the plants leaves are curling up, in a form of a taco, and I have my suspicions why.... I read some interesting info on a lot of peoples threads but all I could find for this is soil. Its coming down to heat stress, as the plant is sweating.. Caused by lights being to close or too much wind velocity for extended periods of time. Well the lights were a little close because I hadnt moved them in a week, and the babies got a little bit taller... So we will see if thats all I needed. In the room im using, I do have an intake for fresh air. Also, I do have a fan that blows over the canopy. This isnt even close to keeping the air temps down, so I keep the main door halfway open and use a fan to blow in the air from the rest of the house. I can usually keep the room at a solid 82, but there are a few times I saw 90 :( Weird and wacky Washington weather... The only other thing I read that could be a cause is a nute deficiency in Fe or Mg .. I kinda doubt that since I gave them a good dose of nutes when I mixed the rez.

[tinytoon]

plant only 3 weeks old wont take ppm over 1000. should be around 400-500ppm. Taco look can also be caused by to much N. Your big ppm numbers dont hit until flowering anyways.

[Salvein211]

Oh I forgot to ask, when should I change my rez and how often?

[Salvein211]

Hey thanks for that ppm advice, that makes me feel better. So I tested ph today and its 7.0 ... Then the ppms are 350ish. A solid drop of 50-100 ppms between all the rez. I was going to drop the water level unless I need to change rez all together? Hopefully that N deficiency is directly related to pH levels?

[tinytoon]

I always did weekly rez changes and dont be to quick to dropping the water level, you WANT roots in the water so dont make them chase it to much. Btw a pic or 2 would do wonders :D

[polishpollack]

Well, the water level is an issue isn't it? That's what happens when you use the larger container. How often you change your water depends more on it's condition. Some hydro ferts are so stable that you may not need to change them much. Alot of people like to change once a week, but if ppm and pH remain stable, you might not need to worry about changing them so much. Especially if you're using large containers. Getting rid of alot of water isn't going to be easy. That's one reason why 5 gallon buckets are good to use. Use of more water creates a need to use more ferts which costs you more in the long run. This should work but you'll also need alot of air to keep the roots from drowning. It's really a trial and error kind of process. You've got to do it for a while and when you have something that works, stick with it.

[Salvein211]

Hey Polish, yeah I agree, and I did switch to the 5gal buckets. Plants are doing superb, all about a foot tall, green as can be and bushy. I think they have been in their 5gal buckets for 3 weeks now. So in all, they are 4 weeks give or take a day or two. I haven't changed my rez once, but from what Im seeing and how Polish explained it, do I need to? Here's an update:

My ppm is around 300-400 still!!! The plants arent intaking the nutes, but they are very healthy.. I dont understand this. They started at about 400-450, and in the 3 weeks they've had this nute batch, they have only gotten into the low 300's on some. Some are 400 still.

One other thing: the room has been about 80 the whole time. In the first few weeks, it got up to 85 a few times, but ive put a stop to that and havent seen a temp over 82 since.

When you say roots drowning, heres my question: When you have well established ladies in 5 gal buckets, about how many inches of gap should the water be from the bottom of the basket? I've got it at about 1-2 inches below.

pH wise, I started at 5.8. The first time I had to top off, they had gotten to 7.0 pH. I topped off with about 5.2 pH. I had to top off last night, and they were at about 6.5, so I used about 5.2pH for top off. (using tap water). Am I not on the ball enough with pH to allow nute intake? I know it needs to be close to 5.8 for best results. Just from my own experience, messing with pH and stressing over it isnt worth the hassle, especially if the girls are healthy. I could add pH down to the rez's every other day to really keep it in range.... Do I need to do that? But as I said, I see no concerns atm.

[tinytoon]

sounds to me like everything is starting to work quite well for u. I suggest continue what u have going on now and keep an eye on the girls, if something is wrong they will tell you.

[polishpollack]

1-2 inches of waterline below basket is good. Should be fine because the whole point is to provide air by use of an air pump, not exposing the roots to surrounding air. However, I've read since ambient air has 20% oxygen and air pumped into water only delivers about 8% oxygen, it's actually better to expose roots to room air. I suspect this is why aeroponics works so well. With that method, your roots get sprayed with nute mix either from the side or trickle down from the top, the nute mix runs down the roots and pools at the bottom of the bucket where it's get pumped out and cycle around again. You use a water pump instead of an air pump. There are some great videos on youtube on how to build this and it really isn't much different. There should be a difference in plant growth however. I can't explain your low ppm being effective, unless the higher ppms that I'm used to reading about really isn't correct data. When you've got something that works, you should probably stick with it, but personally I can't wait to try an aero method. The reason why your plants won't drown in so much water is because you have adequate oxygen being pumped into the water. Doesn't have anything to do with how far the water level is below the netpot. I've read that the ideal hydro pH is more like 6.3. I doubt if you need to change your res. I'd use distilled water bought at the store which shouldn't have much ppm to it. This will give you a baseline of zero or close to it and a better idea of what your real ppm is. I think pretty much anywhere in 6's should be fine for pH. Grow them another 6 inches, then put into 12/12 light cycle. Raise ppm some using distilled water, so yes, a res change is in order if you used tap water. pH around 6.3. Should be good stuff. Gonna get stinky!

[Salvein211]

Thanks for the info Polish, good stuff. Yeah my air pump is a 385 watt commercial... Works very well, quite happy with it. I got to believe this is a large reason for my success. I'm still in AW when I was changing out my rez's and I was looking at the root masses underneath the plants. I was worried about the roots growing around the air hose and it only did in a few buckets, so I was lucky. I've always wondered about AERO.. This is my first hydro grow and I'm already won over when it comes to dro or soil.

So I measured all my plants and the tallest is 25", the smallest is 11". I took the average by adding up the heights divided by the # of girls, and I came out to 18". I just got done changing the Rez's out, and i'm going to start flowering now. I mixed my tigerbloom and big bloom. I just followed the chart and ppms with just the dosage given is about 800. Almost double the ppm levels from before. What kind of store sells large quantities of distilled water? Hell yeah they are already stinky, but I got my homemade cat liter can filter haha.. Just need to hook it up!

[Salvein211]

I just realized when you wrote to grow them another 6" then flower, I looked at my post and it said they were a foot tall. I was guessing the average at that time, but they were bigger then I thought! Always a good thing

[tinytoon]

check Walmart for your water

[Salvein211]

Lol... I should of known that was a silly question.

Ok so It's day 2 of flower and plants look good. Growth has stopped and they have been at a stand still. Earlier in the thread, in Veg stage, I fed according to the Fox farms nute schedule for hydro. My ppms were 400-500. I think I just realized why my ppms are lower then some.. On the chart it shows "Solubles" and also "Bush Doctor" . I haven't tried these products, but they are added along with the trio pack of tiger bloom, big bloom, and grow big during the life of the plant. If I were to of added these per dose at specified times, I'm assuming my ppms would of been closer to 800 or so. I'm thinking about picking these up and giving them a whirl. It depends on $ of course. I had a few questions:

For soil, towards the end of the flower stage, 2 weeks to be exact, it is suggested to stop feeding completely. Is there any rule for hydro on this? I haven't heard anyone say to just use tap water in Rez for remainder of time or such..

Also, I am running two 400watt HPS batwings now.. I think I read that 400watt is a 3x3 area for coverage? Currently I have my plants aligned in a 7x4 area, and they are rubbing elbows in a bad way (figure of speech). I've been looking into 1000w systems and have seen a few on ebay that have caught my eye. If I was going to go 1000w, I was thinking of the hood with a tempered glass setup, having a duct run from one of its side to displace the heat. But what I was confused about is the other style that just has the cool tube, with sides as reflectors... Is this one just for ease of mounting, or does it have a better cooling mechanism? I'm thinking the only way to cool these is to take the heat and move it elsewhere. So in a sense, the first option is way better when you have a room for use? The mountable one is more $ too... 1000w is 10x10, even at 2-3ft above the canopy correct?

One last thing. I read on a few grow logs when people were asking when they should flower, and and it was said to wait for preflowers?? What do preflowers look like? Do pistils come out before you even change 12/12? It was said that the plants will tell you when it's ready to flower, and at a certain period, you will get 2 inches of bud for ever inch of plant? I've never seen or heard of that.. I may have just graduated to a horticulture apprentice.. lol

[polishpollack]

I've never used a flower stage additive, so no comment there. Just be carefull how you use it. I honestly doubt if most grows really need it.
Stop feeding a week or two before finishing. Probably at two weeks but like I said earlier, it's kind of trial and error. Certainly at one week before finish, to get rid of alot of the fert inside or they taste bad. Nothing but water.
I don't think I'd buy the 1000w. Not much point to replace two 400's. You'd be wasting your money. With two 400's you have more flexibility, one low one high, or just use one light if you want. Just enough to continue photosynthesis. Rotate the plants around so not just one is under the light all time. Takes a little effort but might be worth it and will save you about 300 on a 1000w. People say more light, the better, but I suspect that the truth is, you just need enough to get the job done. You can get new reflector for ductwork and still use the 400's if you want. You might try just a couple of fans to get the heat out first. Try simple stuff first. The money you save could be your own and summer is coming to an end, but then, I don't know where you are.
Flower when you want. Two feet tall is plenty tall enough, maybe too tall. They should continue to grow in flower. Are you sure they've stopped growing? don't follow rule of two inches of bud for every inch of plant. Flowering is dependent on genetics and environmental factors. DWC promotes good growth when done right. Let that be enough.

[Salvein211]

Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated. Yeah so for the last two weeks or so, the Rez's will be simply pH'd water. :thumbsup:

Yeah this is probably my 6th overall grow, and I've never used any other additives besides the FF trio. For a trial last grow in soil, I used water only, no nutes. It was amazing how well the plants did.... But really, I just hate soil with a passion now. Plants get rootbound so easily, and its so harsh on the growth when they do. Fixing that via transplanting seems to only fix the problem for a week! I understand the theory though, of giving the roots what they need so they don't have to grow so big to search for life, but even in prior grows with nutes, it's the same deal. But I fault my experience on that. It's just night and day the success i'm having when comparing hydro to soil. The setup for hydro was a little harder, but even the maintenance for hydro is easier.

The only reason I'm considering the 1000W is because the plants are entangled in each other, and only the tops of them are getting the light. With the added light, I could space them out more, and the whole bush would be getting hit with light. But ya 300$ is a lot of doe. Oh and BTW, I live in Washington. So the heat is actually desired in the winter haha. One of my first ever grows, I had this giant 1000w mh with the 360 reflector. The bulb was about 18" long or something like that, (huge). In the winter time, it kept the whole house 10 degrees warmer.

When I think preflowers, I just imagine well developed fruit shoots. If that is so, then I'm there..

[polishpollack]

Yeah, sounds like you're there.
Nanaimo, Chelan, Pullman, Port Angeles... wherever you're at, that's where you are. :thumbsup:

[Salvein211]

Lol, I'm in Enumclaw, outskirts of SKC.

Update: I was wrong about growth stopping. I just said that because I flipped the lights, but they bearly missed a beat. I had to start trimming some fan leaves to allow light penetration on some nodes. But I didn't go nuts. One plant has curling leaves, downward this time. One or two others look like they may follow.

This is the 4th day on 12/12 with a new batch of nutes. I mixed full strength FF nutes, tigerbloom and big bloom. PPM's were around 700-800 to begin. Checking them now, some where 400, and a few were in the 300's! They needed a top off, so I gave them pH'd water only at 5.3 to allow for a rise because each time the plants drink water, pH goes up. PPM's after the top off were 200-400. I'm thinking i need to mix nutes again in the next day or two, but like I said its only been a four days.

I read a few threads on curling leaves, and some say its lack of nutes? There are a few blotches on some leaves, but for the most part, no discoloring of leaves and most of the leaves tips are green. Whats the aftermath look like when theres too much water in the rez? (Drowning) I'm finding a lot of responses say it's almost impossible to overwater in hydro, specially with 4" airstones in a 5gal bucket.

[tinytoon]

watch ur PH drift as some strains will reverse the direction of drift on u in flower

[Salvein211]

Reverse direction? Yikes, thanks for the warning, I didn't expect that. I did notice that pH levels werent as high when I topped off this last time. pH was getting to 6.6-7.0 after a few days to a week, previously. When I checked a few this time around, I was getting 5.5-6.4 ... But in theory I should expect different patterns then Veg state because I used tigerbloom instead of growbig, correct? Instead of loading up on N for Veg, we are loading up on P ... I believe

[polishpollack]

I think the way it usually works is that pH goes up when nutes are consumed and goes down when water is consumed. I don't know if using 5.3 water is such a good idea. Shoot for about 6.3 when water and nutes are mixed, then add that to top off. ppm drops because adding water dilutes the mix, so your solid particles (ppm) goes down. I suspect that your curling leaf problem might be due to low pH. Mix water and nutes and see what pH is, then adjust if necessary. I bet you could let pH get to 6.8-6.9 without problems, however most info I've read says to shoot for a fairly steady pH of around 6.3, but don't sweat it too bad if it goes up. That might just mean to add some more fert. If the water level drops visibly, then top off some but you should use a mix of water and nutes, not just water as doing this will probably give the best pH/ppm maintenance.
Do you see how this works? If the nutes are too few, ppm is low and pH is high.
If pH is low, nutes are too many and water too less. At least this is how it usually works. pH and ppm tend to work opposite to each other. You need high ppm to make pH low using just nutes alone. More fert makes the water more acidic (low pH). It's not the amount necessarily but the low pH is telling you that there is more fert molecules per unit of water and making the water more acidic. High pH means there is greater dilution as water tends to be right around the middle with a number of 7. Number 1 is very acidic and 14 is very alkaline and 7 is in the middle, which is usually what water is. When you add ferts to water the pH starts to drop as the water becomes more acidic. Ideally you grow with a stable pH of around 6.3 and enough ppm to feed a hungry plant. I think low pH has been known to cause leaf curling.

[Salvein211]

Thanks Polish, greatly appreciated. That clears up a lot. You answered a question I hadn't asked yet :D .
It makes perfect sense to add a mix of nute/water to rez's with low ppm counts/higher pH, because as you said the ppm levels are down when ph goes up. (Most likely), always will check before I do it though. I understand that fully now. I had read and heard to just use ph'd water during feedings, which is why I was wondering what to do with my current situation of low ppms.

I checked all my rez, and two of the 15 had low pH of 4.5, and all the others had 6.5ish. The one that had the most curling was one of the lower ones. The two that had the low ph, were the biggest. I dont know if this has anything to do with it, but maybe they are further along in flower then the other gals? Bigger plant, faster cycle? Higher ppm levels in those 2 as well.

I topped them off with just water this time, didn't read the post in time :) But this is day 5 of the nute mix, so Im thinking on day 7 i'll mix a fresh batch up.

So about me using 5.3ph top off water. Lets say I check a rez, got lower ppms, and it needs water. Do I Use the same ratio of nutes to water as I did when I made the first batch, but just for the top off amount? When nutes get taken up, ph goes up most likely. So in this case, lets say Im dealing with a 6.5 ph level in the rez before I add anything. Would I then pH the nute mix to 5.5-5.8 to account for the overall pH in the rez? I know you mentioned 6.3 ... Or add the mix to the rez, stir it up, then pH the whole rez? There's gotta be an easier way to do maintenance on the rez's then im doing lol. I have an 18g tote that has its lid cut for two of my netted pots. Because I was going to use those instead as rez. So when I do my work on my rez's, one or two at a time, i lift them into that tote as gently as I can, then do what I need to.

Sorry for all the q's, and thanks in advance for the advice. I love learning about this stuff, it's fascinating.

[polishpollack]

I think I see what you're saying, but I want to pick this apart piece by piece so we can both get it right. :D

"So about me using 5.3ph top off water. Lets say I check a rez, got lower ppms, and it needs water. Do I Use the same ratio of nutes to water as I did when I made the first batch, but just for the top off amount?"

Yes, that would probably be best. Remember that the more you change, the harder it is to keep track of what you've done and haven't done. This is true for all of life too.

"When nutes get taken up, ph goes up most likely. So in this case, lets say Im dealing with a 6.5 ph level in the rez before I add anything. Would I then pH the nute mix to 5.5-5.8 to account for the overall pH in the rez?"

This is kind of hard to answer. So much of this is trial and error sometimes. That's how it is for scientists. They weren't born knowing better, but they experiment and keep track of results and draw conclusions. I would probably top off first, get your water/nute mix to the level you want it, then pH adjust it. Some here might disagree with that, but I say this because it takes little pH down or up to make a change. Volume of water in your container plays a roll here. If you pH adjust first, get it where you want it, then add top-off to a rez, don't be surprised if your pH walks away from where you want it to be. So top off first, then pH. The liquid you add for pH is minimal, plus adding a water/nute mix first will get your pH closer to where you want it so you most likely will save some pH down or whatever you're using. I'd try not to use too much down if you can help it because phosphoric acid probably works like a fert too. So depend more on real fert to manage pH than the downs and ups. In the end you let the plant tell you what's wrong, but this is difficult until you become more educated. There are some good books out there and amazon should have them for pennies.

"I know you mentioned 6.3 ... Or add the mix to the rez, stir it up, then pH the whole rez?"

Answered above.

"There's gotta be an easier way to do maintenance on the rez's then im doing lol."

Not to be a wise guy here, but this is one of those things where you get out what you put in. You don't need to go crazy (and you'll kill your plants if you do), but hydro takes more effort. You don't need to buy meters for soil. You don't need entire rez changes for soil. But you gain quicker grows that are more robust than soil. If you want slow grows, then soil is it. It's easier too. But there's some good reasons to do hydro. You wouldn't be doing it now if you were not already interested so cut yourself some slack. I guess what you mean is "how can I reduce the maintenance?" Probably the easiest thing would be a single rez system feeding several buckets. Problems with this are having a great deal of water in a single container that if it spills will be all over the place. You have to spend alot of money on fert just to get the ppm right. Smaller water amounts are easier to control. If you're in an area where you can leave the system running for a week without checking on it, then a big rez is the only thing to do. Easy is a relative thing and sometimes working harder is working smarter.

"I have an 18g tote that has its lid cut for two of my netted pots. Because I was going to use those instead as rez. So when I do my work on my rez's, one or two at a time, i lift them into that tote as gently as I can, then do what I need to."

Not entirely sure what this means unless you're referring to overflow and using the tote to catch the liquid. Usually a grower just puts down plastic or grows on vinyl or concrete. Are you the same grower that a while back was asking about using either totes or buckets, and several of us suggested you use buckets? When you say rez are you referring to those buckets? Are you just in DWC single bucket style? For buckets all you really need is a bucket you don't grow in, and pick the plant up with its lid and set down in the empty bucket. Then do what you need to.

[Salvein211]

Thanks for taking the time Polish.

Yeah I can see what you mean about adding your mix first, and then adjusting pH. It's kind of a guessing game if you don't, I see that now.

To explain that last part better.. Yeah earlier in this thread I had decided to use Totes for my reservoirs, but along the way I changed to the 5gal buckets(single bucket DWC style) to makes things more simple. Yeah how you said about placing the plant in a bucket you don't grow in, thats what I do with the totes. What had concerned me was the large root mass being picked up, being lowered into another bucket, and making sure not to pinch the roots on the way down. But yeah I gotcha, it's the duties of hydro.
I'll give a search on amazon.

[polishpollack]

check back in with updates using this thread so I can find it and preferrably shows pics if you can and feel comfortable doing so. Pics aren't necessary here, just update later if you want so I can get feedback.

[Salvein211]

Hasn't been much to update in the past few days, but things are going good. All the plants are showing pistils now and starting to stink :thumbsup:. Today im changing the Rez's out for a new batch of nutes when they awake. Still just going to use Big Bloom and Tiger Bloom, but in the upcoming weeks the FF feeding schedule uses all 3 of the trio.. IE Grow Big in addition to BB and TB. Grow Big was used highly in Veg, containing a lot of N... I think my shortest plant is about 22-24" and the tallest is pushing 36". It's a forest! It takes me back to the good old days, my first grow, when I grew just one plant but did it well. The stalk at the end of its life was so thick, I broke a pair of scissors trying to cut it lol... I'm at that level again :D

[Salvein211]

Ugh I think I vegged too long, each plant is 4ft tall.. Its day 19 of flower, and I just made a fresh batch of nutes for the reservoirs. I noticed the plants were drinking quite a bit less then on an 18/6 cycle, so Im guessing they dont drink much if at all during a night period? Also, my temps have lowered due to the temp outside lowering. Temps range from 76-70, 70 being at night. Im almost thinking 70 -69 and 68 is a bit too cold?

I was thinking about something for my next grow.. If I were to top the plant early, after 3rd leaf set or so, then after a while top the new shoots, and etc... with the growth rate I have with hydro, wouldnt that fix my tall plant problems? And just make them super bushy? I know by doing this it would slow growth down a bit, and if i were to consistantly cut to form 2 shoots again and again, this process would take a bit longer then if I didnt, but im thinking yield would be better? Ive never topped a plant, but ive lst'd, and ive cut fan leaves and such.

I havent mentioned it a lot, but im growing white skunk and blackberry :thumbsup: Im really looking forward to the bb, sativa high :jointsmile:

[polishpollack]

Sounds like everything is working. Are you seeing any leaf discoloration at all?
No lower than 68 if you can.
Cutting tops will shorten and probably make more bushy, but not necessarily give more yield.
Would be nice to see a photo of your grow bucket set up, but if you can't that's fine too.

[Salvein211]

[attachment=o278987]

No leaf discoloration. Yeah after I posted about cutting tops, I researched supercropping, and it looks like the way to go by far. With my setup, it looks like it would work great.