Edges Curling Up Troubleshooting forum included

[highdogs25]

hey guys, 2 days ago my plant's first 2 sets of leaves began to curl inward from the edges. its still showing noticeable growth and has pretty healthy looking green leaves but they keep curling up! it's first multi fingered leave is just growing and i'm afraid what might happen to those ones.. heres the troubleshooting questions to help clarify anything for u guys
thanks for your're valuable time guys, i know u wont disappoint me :)

H=Answer if you grow hydro or aero---hydro
C=Answer if you grow coco---no
S=Answer if you grow traditional soil---no
L=Answer if you grow soilless other than coco (Promix, Hyponex, SunshineMix)---no
R=Answer if you grow in RockWool---yes
T=Answer if you grow in HydroTon---yes
D=Answer if you run any type of automatic drip system, including into soil or soilless-yes



E-indoor or outdoor---indoor
E-soil, soilless, coco, aero, or hydroponic---hydroponic
E-specific medium---sprouted in 2x2" rockwool & hydroton covered
CSL-Soil type/brand--n/a
HCL-Hydro/aero/soilless system type---top feed dripper/3gal rez
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil---n/a
SCLR-Soil or slab runoff pH---n/a
E-Water source---tap water left uncovered for 2 days
E-Source water pH---5.8
E-Age of plant---2.5 weeks
E-Type of fertilizer---CalMag, Superthrive in rez, have not applied nutes yet
E-Rate of application (if hydro, this is your PPM number, preferably after each component is added)---Calmag 3/4tsp per gal and Superthrive 1/2 tsp per gal
E-Lighting source and distance from plant---2x 100w cfl, 2.5" from plant
E-Air temperature (both day and night if you are running a dark period)---i dont have a thermometer but the temp is around 68-75
HD-Reservoir temperature---room temp
E-Air % Relative humidity---not sure
E-Lighting schedule---20/4 starting at 8am ending 5am next day
E-Type of ventilation your room has---small fan circulating air around plant
TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution?---no

i'd appreciate anyone's feedback, i do not want to start all over :*(

[highdogs25]

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u can see its the very edges that curl up. do i need to raise my lights? and if i do, wont that reduce the light it needs, because i heard cfl's need to be very close for them to work well.

thanks again guys

[Weezard]

Good grief! " Superthrive 1/2 tsp per gal"

Re-read the label instructions on the S.T. bottle.
That much will hose adult plants!

IMO Superthrive is snake oil anyway.
But that does not make it harmless.
Quite the contrary.

And you will do well to ignore this outdated advice ; "tap water left uncovered for 2 days".

Most newbies do that.
It's "what they read somewhere".
Very few water supplies still use Chlorine gas for disinfection.
If your water is treated with Chloramine leaving it sit is counter-productive.
All that will dissipate is any dissolved air.
Unless you replace that air with an air-stone or an in-line aerator, your plants will suffocate for lack of Oxygen to the roots


"they keep curling up!"

I'm not clear here.
Are they really curling up, or are they "clawing" down?
There's a big difference.
Pictures would help a lot.

When you say; "Source water pH---5.8"
That can't be from the tap.
So, I'm guessing that you adjust it with PH down.
What kind?

That would also indicate that you have the means to test PH.
If that's the case.
It's more productive to test the res. water every day.
You did not pre-treat the RW or the 'tron?!
I'm willing to bet that your res. PH is quite high and rising.

All that said, if you carefully read the labels and read through the archives here, you might not have to start over.

Test your res. daily.
Purchase a thermometer with an RH readout.
(3 or 4 bucks on da E.)
And at least borrow a camera.
Then get back to us, yah?

Be real happy to help, but ya gotta do the homework.:)

Aloha,
Weezard

[Weezard]

276485

u can see its the very edges that curl up. do i need to raise my lights? and if i do, wont that reduce the light it needs, because i heard cfl's need to be very close for them to work well.

thanks again guys

Well, that answers one question.
They are curling up.

Actually look better that I had feared.
Still a tad young for the cal/mag though, (It supplies Nitrogen).

Looks like a nice setup.
Change out the water, aerate, monitor the PH and you will be OK.


With CFLs it is best to keep them very close.
Within a couple inches.
Too much light is seldom an issue, but the heat can be.
Hold the back of your hand the same distance from the light as the ladies for 30 seconds.
Too warm?
Raise the light an inch or two.

I think you will be fine Highdogs, grow-on.:thumbsup:

Aloha,
Weeze

[highdogs25]

Weezard

i wish i could get a quick source of distilled water. the only water dispensary place thingy is 16 miles away either that or i cant seem to find one in my town. but i adjust the ph it's usually at 7.0+ i used general hydroponics pH down solution to get it at about 5.8 and i have an Oracle air pumping through a bubble bar.

i just got back from walmart and osh i got a 24" F18T8 and a thermometer/humidity reader. now the cfl is just directly over the seedling one pot over, and the T8 is over this one..i'm at 45% humidity and i put a bowl of water with a paper towel soaked hanging out of the bowl behind a fan. my temp is 84f
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and i dont remember pre soaking them in a solution but i soaked it with water for about 2 hours.
thanks i really tried to have the setup as perfect as i can with limited resources.

cant wait for the feedback :D

[Weezard]

Weezard

i wish i could get a quick source of distilled water. the only water dispensary place thingy is 16 miles away either that or i cant seem to find one in my town. but i adjust the ph it's usually at 7.0+ i used general hydroponics pH down solution to get it at about 5.8 and i have an Oracle air pumping through a bubble bar.


Your water company sends an analysis at least once a year.
If you can find yours, take a snapshot and/or post the breakdown.
Distilled water, unamended, will suck the salts out of plants by osmotic pressure and kill them.

Most tap water contains plenty Calcium and Magnesium.
That will cut your costs a li'l, yah.:)

GH PH down is "Phosphoric acid, citric acid and mono ammonium phosphate."
It's the third compound that worries me a bit.
Just fine if it only takes a few drops to get the PH range you need.
When it takes a lot, or you have to keep adding it, it can be a problem in time.

It has been my experience that Hydrotron, even when pre-soaked at PH 5.0, will cause the PH to creep up over time.
So, keep a close eye on it.

And don't sweat the Chloramine, sir.
It's actually beneficial in drip hydro.

You can break it down with Ascorbic acid, (Vitamin C), or ammonia, but GH says that it's PH down is incompatible with ammonia!
And, if you do remove it, you will become more susceptible to mold, rots, fungi, bacteria. . .
All are more harmful to your grow than a few parts per Billion of Halo-methanes. (chloramine breakdown products)

i just got back from walmart and osh i got a 24" F18T8 and a thermometer/humidity reader. now the cfl is just directly over the seedling one pot over, and the T8 is over this one..i'm at 45% humidity and i put a bowl of water with a paper towel soaked hanging out of the bowl behind a fan. my temp is 84f
276489
276487
276489
276488
and i dont remember pre soaking them in a solution but i soaked it with water for about 2 hours.
thanks i really tried to have the setup as perfect as i can with limited resources.

cant wait for the feedback :D

Sure you can!
You just did, yah? :D

I like that little meter.
And the akamai setup of your grow.:thumbsup:
Now we wait fo' da heavyweights to advise on leaf curling, etc.

A few of the real growers still check-in here on occasion.

Aloha,
Wee 'zard

Disclaimer: I am not a chemist, and don't even play one on TV.

[polishpollack]

I haven't done hydro in a while, but I'm going to take a shot at this.
In my experience leaf curl usually mean one of two things - either it's too warm in the grow space, and at 84F this might be it for an indoor grow, or the seed's genetics are kind of old. I've seen old seeds produce funky shaped leaves. Usually the leaf curl is a process called transpiration and it's a result of air temp being too warm. The leaf is trying to shed heat or retain water, not sure which right now. It could be pH, but my bet is on your temp. I don't think the cloth in water thing will help. You'll probably see a good change if you can bring the air temp down below 80F. It looks a little pale green and if anything it's time to give some ferts. I'm going to suggest what I usually do and that is to try Dynagrow 7-9-5 from your hydro shop. It's a one-part fert so you only spend money on one bottle, unlike many others where you need to buy two or three. The problem with Dynagrow is that it has both calcium and phosphorus in the same container and these compounds have a chemical attraction to each other. They bind together and sink to the bottom of the container over time, which means that this fert doesn't have a long shelf life. You can't let it sit around for a year and expect it to still be good. When you buy more than one bottle of ferts to mix together, like the GH products, you get the flexibility of adjusting how much to use of each part and you get longer shelf life. However, Dynagrow is a good fert and since you're growing in hydro, would be a good one to use. Last I recall, the directions read to use one teaspoon per gallon for a hydro grow. It's much less for soil but it's good there too. It has most or all of what plants need to grow, even cal and mg, so you won't need to add any. I've used distilled before with great results in a hydro grow and Dynagrow fert. I don't think plant death is in the cards if you try distilled. I don't understand why you're giving so much Superthrive. Follow the directions on the containers of stuff you buy. Supernatural has also been a great fert for me. You would buy the "Aqua" version and follow directions. It has pretty much everything plants need too. It's a crystal form and can be kind of strong so be careful how much you use. In any case, it's interesting that your plant was able to grow that big without fert so far. Time for some juice. In hydro, it's smart to get a ppm meter and shoot for a ppm level of about 900 for a plant that size. Usually you take it up to about 1100-1200 as the plant grows. Mix your fert in water first, check pH and ppm, and if ppm seems good but pH isn't to your liking, then adjust it. But I think the hydro range is actually pretty wide. Some people say 5.5-5.8 but I grew a plant in DWC to about 6 feet and never checked pH because I was too cheap to buy a meter. I just let it fluctuate however it wanted, trusting the fert company to do me right. It worked.

[highdogs25]

Polishpallack

i appreciate youre feedback, thank you

and the humidity was my guess on why the leaves aren't transpiring. the leaves have a very dry feeling to it but not crispy. i'm about to order a humidifier on ebay, is on the way...for now i'm goin to have to try and raise the humidity myself...my ppm meter should be on its way as well.

i couldnt really find an application direciton for hydro on the back of the superthrive bottle, i had no idea i was giving too much.. but i swapped my rez again and now i only have calmag and some rooting solution mixed in. i'm thinking of giving 1/4 strength of grow big, and i'm probly gonna undermeasure since i dont have my ppm meter yet.

[highdogs25]

Polishpallack

i appreciate youre feedback, thank you

and the humidity was my guess on why the leaves aren't transpiring. the leaves have a very dry feeling to it but not crispy. i'm about to order a humidifier on ebay, is on the way...for now i'm goin to have to try and raise the humidity myself...my ppm meter should be on its way as well.

i couldnt really find an application direciton for hydro on the back of the superthrive bottle, i had no idea i was giving too much.. but i swapped my rez again and now i only have calmag and some rooting solution mixed in. i'm thinking of giving 1/4 strength of grow big, and i'm probly gonna undermeasure since i dont have my ppm meter yet.

[polishpollack]

Well, I hate to tell you this but it's your temp is a little too high. The humidity is fine. If you try to make the area more humid, all that will do it make the room warmer. Superthrive states specifically to give one drop per gallon, unless you have a large need for it. Whether hydro or not, one drop per gallon. Your plant needs ferts. If you have grow big, then I'd give some at least half strength and if there's no calcium or magnesium listed on the bottle, then give a little seperately. You can give fert without a ppm meter. If it says to use a teaspoon per gallon, just give half a teaspoon. I think I understand what you were thinking, that because the leaves feel dry you think that there's not enough humidity in the room and that's the problem? If anything the leaves feel dry because they're not getting enough fert to grow properly. 45% is fine for humidity.

[highdogs25]

polishpollack

i just gave them a 10 min drip at 11am and i'm glad to see that they're looking a little better than yesterday and the day before. i'm in the east bay and it was a lil above 90 for the past few days i couldnt really control the temp that well. i dont usually turn the ac on unless its past like 95...but its been a bit cooler lately thats why i think they look a wee bit healther. i also gave the rez 2 drops of superthrive for about 3 gallons just to be safe. first multi leaves are growing and the color looks very vibrant green though and the stem is pretty strong.

[MEDEDCANNABIS]

84 is too hot and invites pests and disease. you should be feeding balanced nutes. no experienced grower ive seen likes superthrive and it cant be mixed with certain nutes as i believe it says on the label. calmag wont be necessary if your using tap. at least for a while. get some good nutes and watch your ph.

[ConcaucsionS]

I had the same problem just a few weeks ago. Its often a result of the leaves drying up because your humidity is too low in its living conditions. A lot of things that can cause this are like you mentioned the lights being too close, I keep mine at least 8" away but if your using 400-1000 watt sodium's, I imagine most people here are from what I read above than you obviously need a lot more room. Direct contact from any kind of fan is a big one. A lot of people will put fans right in front of their plants to promote stalk growth among other things but this can actually dry the leaves out. The best quick fix is to just raise the light a bit and change the airflow from directly on the plant to just in its direction. If its a full room you can move it back while still pointing it directly at them or if its in some kind of enclosed area try just turning it abit so it blows all around the plant. You'll still get the sway but without the "chapped" leaves in a sense. Hope this helps.

[ConcaucsionS]

O! You are using CFL's! Well in that case 8-12 inches from the top and reduce direct contact from the fan. Id go with 12 until you see new leaves that aren't curling. Then slowly as you raise your humidity and lower your temp abit I keep mine at 76 you plants will be hummin along nicely and you can drop them down to 8 inches. To be truthfully honest CFLS are only good for veg. They dont flower very well on their own. So i'd suggest getting some flower boost and vegging them up for as long as you can. If you keep them on a 16-8 cycle they wont go into flower. When you do eventually want to kick them into flower go with a 12-12 and dont flower them for too long or you will wakeup to dying buds. Check out my CFL grow log Cannabis.com - Medical Marijuana, Medical Cannabis, California Club, News, Videos, Dispensary, Co-op, Co-ops, Menus, Reviews, Los Angeles :: Member :: Concaucsions (http://cannabis.com/viewProfile.php?user=Concaucsions) if you have any questions and dont find the answers there just send me a msg mate

[polishpollack]

highdog, when you say 10 minute drip does this mean you dripped fert into the water over ten minutes? If so, that's not really necessary. You can add the fert to the water, give it a stir, and put the plant in. Measure ferts more by teaspoon or waterever the directions call for. I still think 45% humidity is fine but Concauscion might have something in that your fan might be too close. Air flow is very important in an indoor grow for two reasons - one is that is moves air to get CO2 in and O2 out and helps control temp. The other is you want wind hitting your plants because this will strengthen the stems. Otherwise they will grow up, then fall over. The wind cause the stem to harden up to support the plants weight. When the weight becomes to great for a weak stem, the plant will fall over. It's hard to know what to do in a grow where you don't know ppm, but then you can just feed a little here and there, and see what happens.

[highdogs25]

highdog, when you say 10 minute drip does this mean you dripped fert into the water over ten minutes? If so, that's not really necessary. You can add the fert to the water, give it a stir, and put the plant in. Measure ferts more by teaspoon or waterever the directions call for. I still think 45% humidity is fine but Concauscion might have something in that your fan might be too close. Air flow is very important in an indoor grow for two reasons - one is that is moves air to get CO2 in and O2 out and helps control temp. The other is you want wind hitting your plants because this will strengthen the stems. Otherwise they will grow up, then fall over. The wind cause the stem to harden up to support the plants weight. When the weight becomes to great for a weak stem, the plant will fall over. It's hard to know what to do in a grow where you don't know ppm, but then you can just feed a little here and there, and see what happens.

when i drip i pump water with fert already. i currently have 1/3 strength of Grow Big and CalMag+. i usually measure with teaspoons but my ppm meter is being shipped from australia and i dont have the tracking number yet. and as for the air in my grow closet, i'm pretty sure i'm giving a good amount of airflow with a small fan blowing air on and around the plant.

[highdogs25]

O! You are using CFL's! Well in that case 8-12 inches from the top and reduce direct contact from the fan. Id go with 12 until you see new leaves that aren't curling. Then slowly as you raise your humidity and lower your temp abit I keep mine at 76 you plants will be hummin along nicely and you can drop them down to 8 inches. To be truthfully honest CFLS are only good for veg. They dont flower very well on their own. So i'd suggest getting some flower boost and vegging them up for as long as you can. If you keep them on a 16-8 cycle they wont go into flower. When you do eventually want to kick them into flower go with a 12-12 and dont flower them for too long or you will wakeup to dying buds. Check out my CFL grow log Cannabis.com - Medical Marijuana, Medical Cannabis, California Club, News, Videos, Dispensary, Co-op, Co-ops, Menus, Reviews, Los Angeles :: Member :: Concaucsions (http://cannabis.com/viewProfile.php?user=Concaucsions) if you have any questions and dont find the answers there just send me a msg mate

yeah i now have them under 2x 100 watt cfl's at 1600 lumens each and a 24" florescent at 1225 luments i think it uses 18 watts but puts out more. and what do u mean dont flower them for too long?

[ConcaucsionS]

By dont flower them for too long I mean, as it stands now the plants are in their Veg cycle. And will remain that way until you give them any less than 16 hours of light. A good Veg cycle is usually 18 on and 6 off, where as a flower cycle would be 12 on 12 off. The longer dark period promotes flowering. But with the way CFL's flower a plant it can be very deceiving. The buds dont grow very big so often people will let them grow for too long in the flower cycle and they begin to die. You have too remember when its under a light its not like outside where the plant determines its own life cycle. Once the plants are flowering they're not far off from dying. Thats why its important to not wait too long but not to get impatient either. You'll notice the buds at the bottom of the plant starting to brown abit before anything. If your the kind of guy thats gonna wait until that point I guess thats when you'll know but for me I crop down and restart after 1-3 months at most of flower. And 3 is REALLY pushing alot of times I find myself only doing 1, 1 and a half. Its all about the feel yknow? Comes with time and experience. Eventually you ll just know when its ready. Kinda like cooking steak or a buger on the BBQ without a timer :D

[CrackLemonade]

Leafs curl because they cannot expel water fast enough to keep themselves cool. Lowering the temps will fix this problem
Thats what my grow bible says. The pic shows the exact same problem.

I have that exact thermometer/ RH meter. Its nice cause the numbers are big so you can read if far away easily.