lower leaves turning purple-brown [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

monkey_man

03-23-2011, 02:12 PM

hello all!

i have 2 plants, both are at the begining of their 5th week of flowering.
about two weeks ago i've noticed that in one of the plants, some of the lower fan leaves were starting to turn purple-brown, 3-4 days later it also happened with the other plant. since than, the color spread to some more leaves, but only to the lower/med sections and only to the larger leaves (not to the small ones which surround the flowreing areas).
in one plant, two of the purple-brown leaves developed large black spots (necrosis?), while all the other colored leaves appear fine if you check their buttom side (the black spotts were visible from both sides). the temperature don't drop below 60 F and is usualy above 70 F.
it seems that the discoloration has less effect on the veins of the leaves, as they are the last part to change color.
i searches a lot about this problem and did not found anything that looked similar.
disscussing this situation with a growshop salesman he adviced me to flush the plants as he think this is some sort of nut block - specificaly since i described my watering routine as one in which i water just untill the liquid start to come out beneath the pot and usualy not even that (all stays in the soil).
also, during the last days i notices the tips of the top leaves turning yellow (i guess it's a different problem)
i did not flush them yet, and would love to hear your advice - is there a problem? if so what is it? and what should i do?

pics and troubleshooting info below

thanks!

What is your experience level? 2nd timer
Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. HPS 400w
.2) Distance from tops? about 15 inch
.3) Reflector type? cool tube set-up
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? now there is, untill 3 days ago i only opened the bellows while the light was on
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? i belive it's called a bellows, the device that sucks air out, no fans
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 400 watts, 12/12

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...) light soil, no addings
.8) Size of container. about 1.5 gallons
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? no

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting? bottled mineral water, pH of 7.8 before adjusting
11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...) test strips
12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...) pH down
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. i use bio-bizz organic plant food, like 6 differnet bottles, following the instructions - note that the bottles are 3 years old, but smells fine. at the begining i watered every 3 days and in the last couple of weeks i water every two days
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? isn't watering and feeding the same? i give the plants water with food inside every second day now, about 0.4 liter for each plant
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...) only the biobizz variety
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? i cant tell as i can only check pH before i add the food
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? idk
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? no

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut? 2x3x7 (in feets)
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? on - 60% 73-85 F. off - 65-70 F
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? no

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?) not sure, probably indica dominant
24) From seeds or clones? seeds
25) Is this an autoflower strain? i guess not

Charbud

03-23-2011, 08:09 PM

I wouldnt worry about the purpleness. happened to my bubble cheese like mid flower and it was fine, only thing was the leaves didnt go brown ? Id check that ingoing ig between 6.3 - 6.8, check run off and if theres any inconsistancies give her a good flush with adjusted water.

monkey_man

03-23-2011, 10:42 PM

thx charbud, i hope youre right...

TANKJR

03-24-2011, 02:26 AM

Sounds like a good flushing is in order...I agree with Charbud...

The fan leaves are gonna start dying and falling off from here on out anyway...

CanGroIt

03-24-2011, 02:27 AM

monkey_man

03-24-2011, 06:06 AM

thanks guys!

so, just to make sure we're on the same page here: it's now 2.5 days after the last feeding and the girls are just about to go to sleep and looks ok, i trimed the dead leaf and no new dead spots have developed. 12 hours from now im going to flush them with adjusted water, im thinking of giving them 1.5 Liters each. also, the growshop person told me that when i flush i should add the regular amount of "alg-a-mic" - any comments on that?. also, i mistakenly wrote that i use pH strips - i actualy dont have them, what i do is to adjust pH with the pH kit where i put 3 drops of the tester in a vial half full of water and then compare the color to a chart - so i can't realy use this method to tell the ph of the runouts, or the water once i added the nutrients, i guess i should get me some strips...
then, according to some views, i should start giving regular amounts (lets say 0.5 liters) of clear and adjusted water, instead of every 3rd/4th feeding.

is that correct?

p.s. it's now been 9 weeks since i last got high, which is by far the longest period of clarity i had since i started getting high, that is - in 11 years. 7 more weeks to go...

seventhchild

03-24-2011, 10:45 AM

spend $25 on a PH meter and save yourself from many headaches in the future ....Milwaukee PH 600 Digital pH Meter/Tester/Pocket/Pen New - eBay (item 250311642470 end time Apr-07-11 12:03:29 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Milwaukee-PH-600-Digital-pH-Meter-Tester-Pocket-Pen-New-/250311642470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a47bc8d66#ht_1096wt_924)

WashougalWonder

03-24-2011, 12:32 PM

You have a lockout going on. This is causing a deficiency which is showing up as the purple. The previous advice of flush is the way to go, and ease up on nutes or flush more frequently. You probably only have about 3 weeks to go from the looks of things, expect the sun leaves from the bottom up to start turning to a yellow, getting dead spots, dying and many other appearances. The purple you see is indicative of a nute deficiency, which is caused by too much of one nute blocking the plants ability to uptake the needed nutrients. One needs to remember what we learned in high school about osmolarity and permeable membranes. All life needs a certain range of salts (Nutes to us) to exist without illness. These must be in balance to work properly.

monkey_man

03-24-2011, 08:07 PM

Charbud

03-24-2011, 11:34 PM

ok ok,

so i just flushed them both, with 1.5 Liters each of water + 3ml/L of algamic.
in going pH was about 6.6, run off i collected 700cc each and the pH was about 6.9
so... does that mean im slightly up on the base side?
should i do anythinh special now?the pots took about double the liquid amount they usually take - so my plan is to return to regular feeding in about 3-4 days, should i redo the 7th week again or continue to the 8th week? also, i usualy make a weekly amout of food and use it throughout the week - but i read somewhere here that better not to let the organic food sit and wait, should i take that seriously and prepper a mix for each feed seperatly? or just keep it in the dark?

thanks guys you are the best!

Ph sounds right to me, could take it down to 6.4 or 6.5 to be picky. If your in your 8th week id stick with giving them plain water and make sure there properly flushed for when you harvest. You dont want any nasties left in your bud before you smoke it. They probably wouldnt get much bigger anyway, in my opinion most growth is from weeks 3 - 7. Then the rest is when the trichs start to mature and they get a lil bit bigger.

monkey_man

03-25-2011, 05:37 AM

sorry for the confusion, i meant that im on the 6th week of flowering (8th week total, including veg.) and im not sure if i should redo the 5th week feeding first (that i missed due to last events) or continue to 6th week feeding scheduale.

i like it when the plants are filled with water and all leaves are pointing upwards, seems like they have an erection :)

Rusty Trichome

03-25-2011, 01:26 PM

hello all!
Hello

light soil, no addings
.8) Size of container. about 1.5 gallons
Likely getting pretty rootbound.

13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. i use bio-bizz organic plant food, like 6 differnet bottles, following the instructions - note that the bottles are 3 years old, but smells fine. at the begining i watered every 3 days and in the last couple of weeks i water every two days
Your 3 year old nutrients are likely no good any more. Plus, 6 different bottles? What the hell are you doing to those poor girls...? Most of what cannabis needs can be found in a (fresh) 2-part or 3-part nutrient system. Additives should not be used until there is a need for them, and until you have the ability to understand why you are giving the additive(s) in the first place. Is you potting mix 3 years old as well...?

14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? isn't watering and feeding the same? i give the plants water with food inside every second day now, about 0.4 liter for each plant
Not unless you're in a pre-fertilized soil. (Miracle Grow or similar)
For most major nutrient systems, they have a weekly feeding schedule available on their web site. You are currently giving too much nutrients in a pot that's too small for the root structure. If you are following bottle directions, be aware that some companies label bottles as a stand-alone product. (they assume you only use that bottle on your plants) This can easily lead to overfertilizing. When in doubt, go with the online instructions.
Feeding in soil is best done (IMHO) once or twice a week (following a weekly schedule) with plain, properly ph'd water inbetween if necessary.

16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? i cant tell as i can only check pH before i add the food
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? idk
Test strips offer the same, cheap method of checking ingoing ph for clear water. (any tinting will skew the color-coded result...even with test strips) A ph pen would let you test runoff.

Looks to me like (if your ingoing ph numbers are correct) that either the nutrients are dropping the ingoing ph too low, or the soil ph is a tad low to begin with. (the 'claw' showing on a few of your leaves) and you are seriously overfertilizing her. I'd flush well, transplant to a larger pot, and at the very least cut-back to your base nutrients for flower. Every other additive you are using is overkill, and you are doing more damage by not knowing how to use 'em.
You should also think seriously about purchasing some fresh product, and do not fall for the marketing hype. Grow with the basics till you know how to troubleshoot the damage you're likely to encounter as a result of overdoing it.

Are you using any side-lighting? Just curious...

monkey_man

03-25-2011, 09:45 PM

hey Rusty, thanks for your insights

im aware that the roots might become a bit tight, however i rather not move them now unless its really a must, also, in the first time (3 years ago) they seemed to manage well with the same container size, and the plants then were actualy much taller.

regarding the food i use - before starting i checked with two different grow shops and they both told me that as long as the product smells normal and not showing any signs of fermentation - then its "good to go".

the reason i use 6 different bottles is because that was what they sold me at my "first round", when i bought all the equipment, it might be too much, but it seems to me that it's according to the bio-bizz chart, and also the last time i grew i did it all according to the chart and had no overfertelizing problems, or any other problems.

after flushing the plants yesterday and checking the runout it seems as they were actualy not too acidic, but infact a bit basic compared to the desired pH (runout tested about pH 6.9)

and no, i dont use any sidelightings

all & all - my goal is to reach a successful harvest and if each plant will yield me as much 50 grams of dry product i'll be happy and very satisfied, since that will last my for the next whole year. i used to smoke like a pig and 100 grams would be gone in a couple of months, but nowdays i use much less and thanks to my beloved DBV i dont even smoke anymore. so im not trying to maximize the harvest quantity, and though i do apreciate the quality,i rather not spend any more money at the moment and also not make any big changes that im not 100% sure about.

monkey_man

03-26-2011, 07:14 AM

now regarding some other stuff you wrote (Rusty Trichome):
i do have a problem of "the claw", small leaves all over the plant are curled inwards and appear to be in dark green. after searching this issue it seems that there are many possible causes for this problem, and not one simple explanation - other than that, the plants look healthy, the discoloration of the large fan leaves stopped for now, and buds are still swelling. so if i'll assume it is a problem of over fertilization and i want to cut down on the nutrients, how do i choose which one to lower?
last time i fed them it was according to the followings:
bio-heaven (http://www.biobizz.com/products.php?nid=187&cat=p) 4ml/L
bio-grow (http://www.biobizz.com/products.php?nid=190&cat=p) 4ml/L
alg-a-mic (http://www.biobizz.com/products.php?nid=194&cat=p) 3ml/L
bio-bloom (http://www.biobizz.com/products.php?nid=191&cat=p) 3ml/L
top-max (http://www.biobizz.com/products.php?nid=195&cat=p) 1ml/L

biobizz dont specify the inrgredients in their site, so i'll go over the bottles and specify it myself:

bio-heaven: N (0.91), P (0.18), K (0.24), Ca (0.28), Mg (0.20), Fe (0.017), Mn (0.001), Zn (0.002), B (0.018), Cu (0.0001), Mo (0.0001) - (i donno if these numbers are percentage or what).
biogrow: N (8%) - (of which half is NH4 and half is NO3), P in the form of P2O5 (2%), K in the form of K2O (6%)
alg-a-mic: N (0.1%), P2O5 (0.1%), K2O (0.1%), Ca (0.2%), Mg (0.1%)
topmax: N (0.1%), P2O5 (0.01%), K2O (0.1%) and also trace amounts of Fe,Mn,Zn,B,Cu
biobloom: N (2.0%) of which NH4 (0.9%) and NO3 (1.1%), P2O5 (6%), K2O (3.5%)

i guess in each bottle there are more ingredients that are not specified otherwise what's the point in making all these differnt products if most of them are used in the same time anyway (according to the chart)?

Soooo... any ideas what should i do next, which ones to cut down?
also, if one flush wasn't enought, should i flush again soon or should i first feed for a couple of times and only then flush?

monkey_man

03-26-2011, 07:46 AM

and here's the chart im using:
http://www.growing-life.com/shop/biobizz_grow_chart.jpg

note that im using light mix and should be at the end of the 7th week (overall) - thought i haven't even started it due to current events and the flush.

Rusty Trichome

03-26-2011, 11:56 AM

Hmm...Did you read any of my post...?

Old nutrients (chemical salts) tend to bind together over extended periods. This can easily create a toxic condition in your soil.
A couple of the additives you listed are redundant to the base nutrients (and each other) and are likely contributing to the stress. I understand you are following online directions...but I personally shy away from nutrient companies that recommend you throw every friggin thing under the sun at 'em and keep your fingers crossed. Advanced nutrients is another of the same ilk. But regardless...if your nutrients and additives are spoiled, it doesn't really matter what additives you use. They're all toxic.

Were I forced to go Bio, I'd stick with the Bio grow, Bio Bloom, and perhaps a bottle of unsulphured molasses to replace Top Max. IMHO, the Alga grow and the Bio Heaven are unnecessary. But if forced to take one...I'd go with the Heaven.

And if you are unable or unwilling to transplant, there's not much more I can add. Roots can not feed off of each other, and there is likely not enough soil left in the pot to properly feed and hydrate em.

Flush well, transplant, and go get some fresh nutrients.

WashougalWonder

03-26-2011, 12:51 PM

Sigh, there are just some that won't listen to good advice, goes right over the top of their heads.

Monkey - Rusty is about top dog on this kind of issue. He gave good info and you seem to not want to utilize it. The biggest problem your plants have is your reluctance to give them what they need

monkey_man

03-26-2011, 05:29 PM

sorry if i gave the impression that i wasn't listening, i did come here to learn.
anyway, i'll probably move them into 3 gallon pots soon, and i already flushed them once. regarding buying new fertilizers it's a bit more thricky, as im very short on money and where i live these things don't come cheap. i searched the subject of "biobizz shelf life" and for what it's worth, some people say that their products are still fine after 2-3 years, and others say that the product loses potency over time but don't become toxic, so i have a bit of a conflict here, since with all the respect i have to the info given by Rusty, i would really rather not throw away my fertilizers and buy new ones, unless i really must do it.

Rusty, i realize you are a much more expereinced grower than i am, but that doesn't mean i have to take your words for granted. and so when i encounter differences between what you claim and what i've witnessed such as that the runout pH was actualy higher rather than lower, and that you are the only one claiming the products becomes toxic (and that's including the salesmen which clearly have an intrest of selling me more product, and they still told me it's fine) and the fact that the same pots were already successful in growing helthy plants twice as large - i need to concider your advice with great caution - especialy if it's involving drastic measures.

at the end of the day, its my decision to make and i'll be the one dealiing with its consequences, and so i would apreciate not being confronted with emotional pressure such as "Hmm...Did you read any of my post...?" and "Sigh, there are just some that won't listen to good advice, goes right over the top of their heads." as it is clearly more ego related than professional.

with all that being said - i really apreciate your advices and the time you spent giving them, and i hope to continue and learn more from you, and from every other person who likes to share his knowledge on the subject.

peace!

Rusty Trichome

03-26-2011, 08:59 PM

What I said was...
Old nutrients (chemical salts) tend to bind together over extended periods. This can easily create a toxic condition in your soil.
If you can provide me a link to counter this statement of fact, feel free to post it. From what I have read, understood and experienced...2-3 years is pushing it and salt build-up creates a toxic soil enviornment. Perhaps you could Google the shelf life of liquid plant nutrients and see what pop's up.

And as far as acting the professional...We get paid nothing for sharing our experiences with others that are willing to learn, and I get paid the same if I chose to avoid those that either don't appreciate it or just want to argue.

I'm not known for my 'touchy-feely' embelishments in my postings. And since it displeases you to hear me try and help you over the rough spots unless I coddle your whiney butt and hold your hand in a touching 'kum-ba-yah' moment, feel free to take the other advise you were given and run with it. It's your garden, not mine.

You were given strong points to ponder. Perhaps you should go ponder 'em...:jointsmile:

But seriously...If this garden is for your meds, I wish you the best. :thumbsup:

WashougalWonder

03-27-2011, 01:32 PM

Rusty, I think you are missing his financial issue, and as you know, some is better than none sometimes. He is aware of the risk, but is making his own choice based on financial constraints.

Yes our reward is other's success.

Rusty Trichome

03-27-2011, 03:53 PM

I understand the financial end of it, and I also know the requirements the plants put on us. Wife and I are on a fixed income, and often I have to make sacrifices to keep our meds growing proper, and still afford to keep food on the table. I can't tell him how to get the funds to better care for his ladies, but I can steer him in the right direction and recommend the most important issues be dealt with as soon as possible. Since he wants to argue about and disregard personal experience, then so be it. I have no problem with personal choice. I thought I was rather restrained with my response though.

monkey_man

03-27-2011, 05:01 PM

c'mmon guys - water under the bridge, right?

it is now 71 hours after i flushed them and lights are up is in about an hour.
last time i checked, the pots were still heavy, so i guess they need at least another day or two to suck the rest of the water out.
i want to move them into bigger pots but im thinking of running another flush first, as i dont want to flush them in the new pot, so i need some advice on the subject - my plan is to flush them again once the pots turn light (in a day or two), and then to wait another 4 days or so for them to dry again, and only then to move them to their new & bigger home. now, the last time i fed them was 6 days ago, and so if i flush them again instead of feeding them it will be a total of about 11-12 days without direct food - is that ok? also, as it seems that i suffer from a combination of problems that are probably: overfertilization,low-pH and root-bound - could you please specify which problem i should address first?

i'll try to upload fresh pics after they'll wake up soon

& thanks for stickin' around!

monkey_man

03-27-2011, 06:47 PM

pics, fresh from the oven:
273874273875273876273877273878

Rusty Trichome

03-27-2011, 11:28 PM

If you're going to transplant, I'd do it about 10 minutes before you transplant. You're going to want to water 'em into the new soil when you transplant, and keeping soil saturated for extended periods is a bad idea. So at the same time is preferable. This helps remove salt (and nutrient) build-up before putting her into new soil. It won't flush the nutrients from the plant, but she'll use those nutrients sooner or later.
Cutting back on nutrients can help the ph issue, but if need be raise the ingoing water ph a bit highter than usual to compensate. If your new soil is pre-buffered, you might still have to help the old soil by raising the ingoing water ph a tad.
Have you ever tried unsulfered molasses...? Might be all you need from this point forward, and it's full of good stuff like calcium, magnesium, iron, carbs...and a host of micro's...
The plant will suck what it can (mobile elements) from fans, but it might be better than the "potentially harsh" (better...?) nutrients you've got.

monkey_man

03-28-2011, 11:06 AM

well i got me a bottle of blackstrap molasses, how much should i put in one liter of water? it has (per serving, according to the chart): 25 mg Sodium (1%), 240mg Pottasium (7%). 20% Calcium, 25% Iron, 25% Magnesium (i guess the percentage is values based on daily diet, but no other values are specified), so how much to put in water, and should i feed them with it on each watering? can i also give it to them with the flush or should i wait for the next watering after the flush?

cheers!

Rusty Trichome

03-28-2011, 11:47 AM

For Blackstrap, (concentrated molasses) I'd start at about 1/2 teaspoon per gallon per week. (1/8 teaspoon per liter) But even that might be a pretty heavy dose. Have you read the molasses sticky? It's around here somewhere...

I would have it mixed already, and add it as the last liter of flushwater.

monkey_man

03-28-2011, 12:03 PM

i read the molasses sticky (at least most of it) yet i still wasn't sure about the dosage.
about the flush - last time i flushed each plant with about 1.5 liters of pH'd water, should i use more water? can i use the runouts and run them in again in the same flush or should i only use "new" water?

thx

Rusty Trichome

03-28-2011, 12:53 PM

2-3 times the volume of the pot should be fine. Add the flush water slowly, so it'll absorb and flush, rather than just flowing out of the bottom unimpeded.

The reason for a flush, is to release/remove salts and built-up nutrients. If you re-use the flush run-off, you'll be adding that stuff back into the soil.

monkey_man

03-28-2011, 01:17 PM

ok, so it appears that the flush that i made of 1.5 liter water for 6.5 liter pot was a joke...

as i can't afford the desired amount of mineral water for a proper flush, i filled about 30 liters of tap water in an open container and i'll delay the flush for tomorrow so the water can have enought time to lose the Chlorine (i'll adjust thier pH ofcourse). the tap water around here are pretty hard, so i hope that won't pose a new problem... at the end of the flush i'll add for each plant a liter of pH'd mineral water with some molasses sidolved in it (1/8 tea-spoon).

please correct me if im wrong
thanks

Rusty Trichome

03-28-2011, 03:51 PM

Sounds about right.

I'm not a big fan of worrying about hard water in soil grows. And if you'd notice...runoff is not clear which means it's picking-up more organics and nutrients and minerals than what was in the water in the first place. My tapwater is from a calcium carbonate/magnesium carbonate (limestone) aquafir and comes out out of the tap at 7.9 ph. A little phDown, and it's good to go. No problems with seedlings, clones adolescents nor adults.

The Effects of Hard Water on Gardens | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/info_7974727_effects-hard-water-gardens.html)

A lot depends on what's actually in your water locally though, and whether you're on municipal water. Solid chlorine additives are an example of something that can only be filtered out or via R/O. (w/carbon filter) Googling your local water quality report can help with this, but I've lived in area's with reaaaal bad tapwater and have never purchased water as a result. As long as the water isn't killing the beneficials in the soil, or messing with your ph...you shoud be fine.

I guess for hydro or coco it might be an issue, but I didn't get any better a result when using R/O filtering to water a few grows. Twasn't worth it. I needed the R/O for my saltwater and coral tanks, and gave it a go for a while.

It might be a good idea to investigate your tapwater, as it's soooo much cheaper and easier if you can use it. Might be you'd save enough $ to get some fresh nutrients...:thumbsup:

CanGroIt

03-28-2011, 06:42 PM

Might be you'd save enough $ to get some fresh nutrients...:thumbsup:

LOL!!!! You just had to throw that out there huh!!!! Too much!!

monkey_man

03-28-2011, 08:05 PM

Might be you'd save enough $ to get some fresh nutrients...:thumbsup:

:) ;) :)

so now i got the water waiting outside for about seven hours, and im thinking maybe it's already good enough to use so i won't have to postpond the flushing/transplanting operation for tomorrow - i found a report from my city water company which gives the maximum amounts of elements and compunds tested for my regional well, and here is it's summary:
(amounts are in mg/L)
Arsenic 0.0005
Barium 0.212
Chromium 0.0095
Nickel 0.0028
Selenium 0.001
Fluoride 1.2
Nitrates 124
dichloroetilane 1,1 - 0.3
dichloroetilane 1,2 - 0.5
trichloroetilane 2.3
Chloroform 0.3
CCl4 0.7

so should i wait for the full 24 hours (or more?!), or can i already flush?

(sorry, but for every answer you give me i got like three more questions...)

monkey_man

03-28-2011, 09:44 PM

never mind, it's too late, i'll do it tomorrow...

monkey_man

03-29-2011, 08:27 PM

update:
just finished transplanting girl #1
first i flushed it with 15 liters of pH'd water (my tap water is around pH 8.5 :wtf:)
then i gave it 1.4 liter of pH'd mineral water with 0.175 teaspoon of blackstrap molasses disolved in it.
then i let it sit, while i arranged the new home - an 11 Liter pot, in which i first put a 5 cm layer of hydroton with a bit of lightsoil above.
then i took the plant and rapped a nylon bag around its soil and above it i placed a cardboard which i cut to the middle and added a circular cut in the middle to allow the stem some room.
then i slowely flipped the pot while suppurting my hand below the cardboard - (it was heavy as it was saturated with water).
then i pulled the pot upside - it slided out with ease.
then i pinched the roots a bit (i hope that was right of me to do) and placed it in the new pot, covered the gaps around with new soil and returned the pot to its electric sun.

pictures of the roots and the plant are attached - it appears that the purple color climbed and reached new leaves - it has some beauty to it i must say...

if all goes well i will repeat the opearation with girl #2 tomorrow

MEDEDCANNABIS

03-29-2011, 08:57 PM

" isn't watering and feeding the same? i give the plants water with food inside every second day now, about 0.4 liter for each plant "

monkeyman - watering and feeding are two entirely different things, depends on who you ask. It looks like you have a serious case of nute burn or over fertilization. Please flush them....... To avoid this in the future make sure you give plain Ph adjusted water every third or fourth feeding/watering. Personally I nute nute water and flush on week 5 of FL and just before harvest. Reason why I flush on week 5 of flower is because I plan on giving extra strength K on weeks 6 and 7. Just my 2 cents......

Happy Growing......

no, watering is just water, feeding is adding nutes with your water. you look fine, as during flower your plant consumes less nitrogen...this is what you see in your leaves. your plant is diverting its energy from the leaves to the buds. if youre organic feed to the last week then flush otherwise 10 days to fourteen days flush. your plant will still need nitrogen just not that much.

Farmer Rich

03-29-2011, 10:12 PM

Hey Monkey Man,

I'll jump in and agree with the last 2 replies.. Especially flushing about every third watering (me, feed 2-3 times, water flush). Your root pics look great for week 5 and I don't think you have any worries. The larger leaves turning color (or dying) the last few weeks of flower is normal, when and how much just varies among different strains. The only other advice I'd add is to possibly start tapering down the strength of your nutes in weeks 6 and 7. I also thought the strength you mentioned mixing earlier was a bit high. Using a 2 part base, I tend to never go over 2.0 ml per litre of either the A or B solution (maybe 2.5 on strains that like a bit more), which is 1/2 of the recommended strength of the brand I use. With my water, this yields a ppm of ~900, with additives I jack it up to about 1100 on the top end. If you're mixing without a meter to measure the results, going a bit lighter on the nutes is much safer and will help you to avoid problems. Also in regard to pH, adding nutes typically reduces it so always balance as the last step.. sorry if I was redundant on that one.

Good luck!

Peace, Farmer Rich

monkey_man

03-30-2011, 10:08 AM

thanks for the support guys, however im a bit confused right now,
was that an actual rootbound?
should i pinch the roots while transplanting or should i leave them alone?
does the roots usualy show indication for overfertilization or does the signs only seen in the leaves?
was transplanting the right thing to do?

10 hours after transplanting the plant still looked the same - i expected it to be happy for me after a night in the wet soil but it still looked sad like after 5 days with out watering - was that possibly because of the shock caused by transplanting or messing with its roots?

im planning to starnsplant the other plant tonight, and now i have doubts about it... Rusty where are you? i need your feedback...:confused:

and btw & fyi - i live far away from the states, so my nights and your nights are probably not at the same time.

Rusty Trichome

03-30-2011, 01:19 PM

was that an actual rootbound?
Yup.

should i pinch the roots while transplanting or should i leave them alone? Pinch the roots...? During a transplant you massage the rootball a tad to get some of the root tips to pop-out of the rootball and find the fresh soil, if that's what you mean.

does the roots usualy show indication for overfertilization or does the signs only seen in the leaves?
was transplanting the right thing to do? Roots should be a healthy white, and hopefully not too tightly packed. Troubled roots are a tan, brown or black. A bit late in the cycle, but the transplant was looking necessary.
Roots rolling-around the bottom of the pot shows it's looking to find some fresh (healthy) soil.

10 hours after transplanting the plant still looked the same - i expected it to be happy for me after a night in the wet soil but it still looked sad like after 5 days with out watering - was that possibly because of the shock caused by transplanting or messing with its roots?
Rarely does something good happen overnight. Yes, she will go through transpant shock, but if you treated her gently, she should be fine. Usually takes a few days to recover. Old leaves are old news though...don't expect the damaged leaves to heal. Keep an eye on the new growth to monitor results.

Farmer: although yellowing is fine for late-stage flowering, did you look at his pix? That's not a normal appearance regardless of what stage she's in.

monkey_man

03-30-2011, 01:51 PM

thx for the quick reply Rusty,

i knew i should try and loosen the roots somehow, and so i carefully pinched them with my fingers ,but they were very gentle so as a result i actually made small holes around the rootball - i hope that won't cause too much of a problem as some of the root tips are probably now dead because i detached them (though they are still connected to the rootball) .

so tonigh i'll translplant the 2nd plant and this time i'll be more easy on the roots and only message them.

in what rate should i increase the amount of molessas during the next weeks?
also, does the molessas alone will give good results for the final bud swelling? or maybe i should try and give some of my old nut's anyway? (i mean i don't want to take risks for a small difference, but at the moment the buds look like they can still develop and swell alot, and so im wondering if the molasses alone will be sufficient for this job)

also - should i give them some root-juice to stimulate root growth to new soil?

p.s. - the smell is wonderful, a bit like ripe mango or passion-fruit, and pistills started to turn brown.

sunbiz1

03-30-2011, 03:26 PM

monkey_man

03-30-2011, 04:06 PM

Were the bottom roots stuck to the pot when you transplanted?.

no, the bottom of the new pot had about 2 inches of hydrotone topped with 1 1/2 inches of new soil. and also about 1 1/2 inches of new soil from each side.

Farmer Rich

03-30-2011, 04:34 PM

Farmer: although yellowing is fine for late-stage flowering, did you look at his pix? That's not a normal appearance regardless of what stage she's in.

Hey Rusty,

After looking again, and not focusing strictly on the fan leaves, but also the leaf tips curling down it isn't happy. I like mine reaching for the sky.. IRT leaves turning though.. Nearly all indica dominant strains I've grown start to shed fan leaves about week 5 - 6 (on an 8 week strain). I have a Vanilla Kush on day 60 that's turned nearly purple, with some really ugly leaves on the underside that have gone brown due to the lack of N. I also start giving nothing but water at the start of week 7. For a sativa dominant, my Super Lemon Haze is finishing week 8 and has started losing color in the fan leaves as well where a typical fade to yellow has started. This one will be flushed for weeks 9/10 and it will be extremely ugly at the end..

Monkey Man, - I also remember sweating this stuff when I was getting started too.. I personally think you got some solid advice on this thread and as you gain patience in growing, your're going to do fine. Keep it simple.. BTW - that was some great looking bud on the plant!

Peace, Farmer Rich

Rusty Trichome

03-30-2011, 05:06 PM

Root damage should be kept to a minimum if possible, but as long as it's a small percentage of damage all should be fine.

It might be that at some point down the line they (the plants) will want you to resume a 'normal' nutrient regimine, but i'd stick with molasses only till they've recovered from the transplant shock and previous 'issues'.

What specific soil did you transplant into? Might be enough organics in the fresh soil to take you through to the end with minimal addition of flowering nutrients. Might be you need to add more. Time will tell.

Keep in mind that any stress to the plant can and usually will delay final harvest date. So don't go freaking-out that they're taking longer than the advertisements say...

Are you referring to a b vitamin product for root growth? If so...perhaps you should read this:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Vitamin%20B1.pdf (http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Vitamin%20B1.pdf)
No, I don't recommend root accelerators, and rooting hormone doesn't help to form roots on roots. (in case you were wondering...)

No additional additives till they recover. They'll find the good soil without chemical assistance.

Keep ph steady, don't overwater, let 'em heal...and be patient.

monkey_man

03-30-2011, 05:46 PM

What specific soil did you transplant into? Might be enough organics in the fresh soil to take you through to the end with minimal addition of flowering nutrients. Might be you need to add more. Time will tell.

im using a proffessional soil mix without additive nutrients (light mix)

It might be that at some point down the line they (the plants) will want you to resume a 'normal' nutrient regimine, but i'd stick with molasses only till they've recovered from the transplant shock and previous 'issues'.

im sorry but you are not clear on the subject - what should i do after the plants recover? should i stop with the molasses? should i give them something else - keep in mind that i prefer to use my old blottles if possible, and i can't really afford buying new ones - let's say that maybe i can buy 1 product if it's necessary.

Are you referring to a b vitamin product for root growth? If so...perhaps you should read this:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Vitamin%20B1.pdf
No, I don't recommend root accelerators, and rooting hormone doesn't help to form roots on roots. (in case you were wondering...)

i was referring for a product of biobizz called "root-juice (http://www.biobizz.nl/products.php?nid=193&cat=p)" which i usualy use during the first week of veg. i don't think it contains vitamin B as it does not mention it on the bottle

********

thanks again for all the support Rusty, and may i also ask what is your preferred method of consumption?

Rusty Trichome

03-30-2011, 06:44 PM

I'm pretty sure you're putting the cart before the horse, (patience) but you should resume your bloom nutrients when the plants start showing signs of improvement. I use molasses from like the 3rd or 4th week of flowering, till harvest. If you use molasses though, find and remove from use, the Bio product it replaces. Will say something regarding calcium, magnesium and/or iorn. It might be one of the carbo-load products, as often they are nothing more than diluted or synthetic molasses, IMHO. Anyway...the carbs in the molasses are great building-blocks for the recovering plant.

Again...why do you want to add more chemicals, when chemicals helped get you here? Did you read the link? Most root accelerators are a thiamine (vitamin b1) product, which is what the link was all about. (well...them, and Superthrive) The roots know what they have to do, likely it's best to let 'em do it without further assault. Not sure I covered this earlier, but force-feeding nutrients and additives on a sick plant is usually counter-productive unless it's to remedy a deficiency.

Arguably, the most critical phase is flowering. At the very least I'd Get a solid bloom formula.

I'm a woodcrafter, so every once in a while I make my own simple, wooden pipes. Wife likes vaping though.

monkey_man

03-30-2011, 07:42 PM

Again...why do you want to add more chemicals, when chemicals helped get you here?

i was just making sure

*******

finished now flushing and transplanting the 2nd plant, most went well. roots look nice and less tight than with the 1st plant. while flipping it over i accidently dipped the top of the plant in some of the runoff water - so i wiped it gently with TP and now i hope that it will quickly dry under the lamp (no water drops on the leaves).
i lifted the lamp a bit to easy things on the plants and now i'll give them few days to recover (like it's up to me ;)).

i need some recovery as well :) but i can't recover till the harvest :( the deal with the wife was that i can grow only if i take a long break... well so far so good, 10 weeks and counting, the most is behind me now...

i used to be a smoker: bongs, joints, pipes, chillums, cigarettes - you name it. but couple of years ago i discovered the wonderful world of vaporizing and (almost) never looked back. moving from smoking whatever i could get my hands on, to vaping only quality buds was a very good move, both health-wise, and high-wise. and it also allowed me to finaly stop using cigarettes which in its turn allowed me to cut down on my amounts and frequencies until i could finaly last more than a day without getting high - and not make a fuss about it. so anyway vaporizing did me only good and now im trying to share this goodness with others. so what kind of vaporizer you wife uses? personally, only when i tried the whip style vaporizors, specifically the DBV, it really got to me and managed to satisfy me as bongs used to do. i guess if im away from home & electricity i would choose a pipe as well, though im not sure i would be able to say no to a nice clean bong :).

i'll try to give you some rest from my questions, thanks a lot anyway!

peace & health