Lime green plants!! :(

[IntrepidSavage]

Hey all, just hoping some wise sage can help me with a question regarding my treasures... Here's my info:

Indoor
soil
Random potting soil mix for roses - only thing available
Soil runoff pH 7.5+
Water source: bottled water
Source water pH: 8.0 (treated with organic cider vinegar to 5.0)
Age of plant: 4 weeks
Type of fertilizer: Age Old organic plus compost tea
Rate of application: 1 fert water then 1 compost tea water
Lighting source and distance from plant: 3 65W CFL's 5in. from tops
Air temperature: 85 day / 80 night
Air % Relative humidity: 45-60%
Lighting schedule: 18/6
Type of ventilation your room has: Fan
Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution?: soaked soil in pH 4 solution to lower pH since it was high in the soil i bought.

I'm limited in the options for soil here - the stuff i have has high pH. I tried to lower the fresh soil using a HCL solution before repotting (repotted at 2 weeks old), but soil runoff pH is still quite high. The plants were topped at 2.5weeks old(6 nodes tall).

The new growth since the plants were topped is very light green. They are growing fast, but I think they're suffering N nutrient lockout from too high soil pH. In the pictures you can see the difference between the new growth and the clones made from the tops.

Am I correctly identifying the problem? Is overall lime green growth in an otherwise healthy plant a sign of N deficiency due to high soil pH? or could it be disease, other nute def, etc..? I read its not good to water soil with super low pH levels, so i treat my feed water to pH 5.0 with vinegar. no access to lime, sulfur, humic acid, pH down, or peat moss where i live that i'm aware of.

Pic 1: two of the three plants, with the top cloned from the left plant between them. This is with flash. You can see the difference in color, and i think that waxy look on the clone's leaves is good, definitely not on the new growth.

Pic 2: same shot with no flash - gives you a good idea the difference in color.

Pic 3: the schedule/notes. You can see i tried foliar feeding, and upped the nutes for the foliar feed. In the pics you can see the plant tips just a little burned from that second foliar feed.. didnt affect plant color much - mayyybe a slight improvement...

Thanks for ur help!!

[TANKJR]

I think you are on the right track...they need N...have you any dolomite lime available? If so it is a very good buffer and helps keep the soil around 7 or below...(at this point you'll either have to re-pot and mix it in the new soil or mix it in with the water) I don't have as high a ph problem as you, but you might try some other acidic substances to help get the soil itself lower in ph, like citrous zest (grind up the peels), coffee, and I use organic lemon juice sometimes, and there's others...mix them up and apply different ones instead of just the vinegar maybe, (like one time use coffee, the next use lemon juice, the next something else and watch the soil ph to see what it does) but you need to get the soil itself lower in ph so the babies can suck up the nitrogen your giving them...also maybe try some unsulphured blackstrap molasses (no more than a tablespoon per gal)...it can help the roots get more nutes, but does little to the ph. I don't think it's that your not giving them enough N, it's that the ph is just too high for them be able to utilize it. Hope this helps, G/L!

[Treez81]

No doubt u need to lower the ph. It also looks like the dirt mix could use some perlite. Looks like the plant in the middle has some and is doing much better. Drainage is huge.

[IntrepidSavage]

SOLVED (just 1 more question lol)

I found these ingredients:


5kg kompost-based potting soil mix: coco coir dust, sand, garden soil and enriched with soilless compost pH 6.3
5kg Fine Kompost: non-toxic seived grass clippings, palm fronds, green coconut husks and dried animal manure decayed completely pH 6.3
0.5kg dry coco coir - fine composted coco coir
0.5kg dry coco fibre - less decayed long skinny coco fibres
2kg dry coco husk chunks
100% pure worm castings


sweeeeeet, what an amazing stash i have now.. :rastabanna:

I'm repotting to larger pots asap. i'm going to make a soil/coco mix as per:

Soil
3 parts kompost-based potting soil mix
1 part Fine Kompost
1 part worm castings

Coco
6 parts coco husk chunks(soaked in distilled water then separated into very small pieces and dried a bit)
3 parts fine composted coco coir
1 part coco fibre strands(cut/ground up a bit)

Overall Mix by volume
2 parts Coco by volume
1 part Soil by volume

My question is, does that soil mix make sense for the ingredients i found? Or should i just forget the coco? I figured i needed it because the soil mixes are quite dense, wouldn't drain well.

I've read many posts on soil mixes but interested in the opinion given these specific ingredients.

Thanks all!

[TANKJR]

I've not used coco stuff...I use the perlite. it has no effect on ph and really promotes drainage and air to the roots....I'm sure coco may do the same, but it does have some effect on ph (from what I've studied)...in your case that may be a good thing! Good job re-potting...it should help greatly! Hope they finish off nice! G/L!

[Gatekeeper777]

IMHO I would change the soil ASAP then water with a high Nitrogen rich water. And follar spray with yeast sugar water mix at lights on. and mid day. I had a plant starting to yellow. I started to folar spray with the co2 mix and WOW! Here look for yourself day 17 of flower. THEY LOVE IT! :hippy::thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

First and most important...what are you using to test your ingoing ph, and the runoff ph?
You mention you're in a medium intended for roses? Roses are acid-loving so I sincerely doubt it's ph is buffered that high.

Does it have any perlite in it? A couple of the pots look like you stuck a plant in a cow-pie.

You adjust all your ingoing water to 5.0ph? Geez...that's gotta be 1/4 cup of cider per gallon of water, isn't it? This is likely the reason they're yellowing. Adjust your ingoing water ph to 6.8ph, and give 'em a couple of days to see if that helped.

I'm almost afraid to ask...but what did you "solve"?

Putting anything that has not been composted into your pots, is a great way to promote rotting soil. (coffee grounds, citrus peels...) Shit like that will rot. You've heard of beneficial bacteria...? Well conversely there are damaging bacteria, too. And egg shells are not a good source of calcium. (it's not in a form the plants can uptake)
All that stuff is great in the compost pile, but bad in pots.

Likely a good idea to learn to grow before you try experimenting with your own soil mixes. I've never used coco, so have no comment other than it runs at a lower ph, and is notorious for salt (nutrients) build-up. Peat based mediums are somewhat cheap, fairly forgiving and easy to find. If you have the experience to dial-in a working soil...then have at it. But you're setting yourself up for failure if you don't know what you're doing.

[IntrepidSavage]

ahh man, destroyed by RT! ahaha... alright I'll answer best i can inline:

First and most important...what are you using to test your ingoing ph, and the runoff ph?
You mention you're in a medium intended for roses? Roses are acid-loving so I sincerely doubt it's ph is buffered that high.
I'm using the pH drops test with the label where you compare the color. I've tested it on all kinds of water, with acid, with base, etc. I think i can read the color correctly.. i dunno, maybe dissolved solids is throwing the color off a bit..


Does it have any perlite in it? A couple of the pots look like you stuck a plant in a cow-pie.
HAHA the cow-pie effect is from the compost tea i made last time. hey, i'm a scientist, i like experiments what can i say. getting rid of the top cow-pie layer anyway.



You adjust all your ingoing water to 5.0ph? Geez...that's gotta be 1/4 cup of cider per gallon of water, isn't it? This is likely the reason they're yellowing. Adjust your ingoing water ph to 6.8ph, and give 'em a couple of days to see if that helped.
It's not that much cider vinegar.. ya i probably over-did it trying to lower the pH, will low pH make the plants all around yellow like that?



I'm almost afraid to ask...but what did you "solve"?
lol.. i found soil with a label declaring for the world that it is pH 6.3. Pretty sure the mix i'm using is higher pH



Putting anything that has not been composted into your pots, is a great way to promote rotting soil. (coffee grounds, citrus peels...) Shit like that will rot. You've heard of beneficial bacteria...? Well conversely there are damaging bacteria, too. And egg shells are not a good source of calcium. (it's not in a form the plants can uptake)
All that stuff is great in the compost pile, but bad in pots.
ok, no raw materials.. not sure where the eggshell advice came from, i didnt mention it and am not using it..



Likely a good idea to learn to grow before you try experimenting with your own soil mixes. I've never used coco, so have no comment other than it runs at a lower ph, and is notorious for salt (nutrients) build-up. Peat based mediums are somewhat cheap, fairly forgiving and easy to find. If you have the experience to dial-in a working soil...then have at it. But you're setting yourself up for failure if you don't know what you're doing.
for the last time, i live in a third world tropical country with a similar climate to puerto rico but probably less access to "things". I am extremely limited in where i can find this shit so i'm doing the best with what i've got. Too bad u can't help with coco, ur right i'm heading for disaster with all this tweaking!

So, i'm going to repot the three in some mix of coco and soil, hopefully the plants turn around! anyone with experience in coco mixes, lemme know..

[Rusty Trichome]

Any tinting of the water will skew the ph test results. Usually not even in the ballpark if the water is colored at all.

Not at all sure which members are in coco, but the grow logs might be a good place to start. You might also want to check in the outdoor growing section to see what it takes to ammend native soil(s) for indoor use. Usually a bad idea due to the bugs and microbial stuff though. :thumbsup:

Yes, the low ph will start locking out nutrients causing the yellowing, and 'the claw' effect on leaves. Plants will start greening-up once you get the ph within range.

Egg shells, dead fish and coffe grounds have been used for many years outside in the garden. But with some of the ingredients, they need to be broken-down into a usable form before it can do your plants and their microbes any good. Especially the calcium. You may not have mentioned it, but it's info all members can use.

[IntrepidSavage]

Ugh, i was counting on the pH test.. i guess i can get a coffee filter to strain the water before testing? would that help?

I was reading a cool paper that mentioned what you said about eggshells. Said they need to be roasted well first, then soaked in vinegar and then diluted with 20 parts water. Neat stuff..

[Treez81]

Coffee filter is not gonna work. Get a ph pen.

[TANKJR]

RT's right and sorry I was so buzzed I forgot to mention it, because it's very important, but I mix my soil up several weeks, sometimes months in advance and let it sit and fester for awhile before I actually use it....I use all kinds of organic garbage to get the ph perfect before it ever sees a root, plus perlite and vermiculite, and let it sit for some time to be sure I got it right! I'm an oddball tho...and don't have access to good bagged soil! If you can get good soil that is truly 6.3, definitely use it!