quality of mmj since hb1284

[COfluffhead]

what is your opinion on the overall quality of meds since hb1284 passed?

I used to go to dispensaries to buy samples of strains I've always wanted to try, and would often find at least something worthwhile after looking at a dozen or so jars. Ever since private caregivers were no longer allowed to sell their excess meds to dispensaries, I have personally noticed that both the variety and the quality have gone down significantly

is it just me? or do you see the same?

my friends who work at a HUGE growstore in the denver area crack jokes all the time about dispensary owners who don't even know how to root a clone are trying to run a whole warehouse. And constant sob stories about warehouse failure...

also do you ever wonder if the big dogs who were in full support of certain areas of hb1284 are now regretting?

I also know many growers/caregivers who will no longer share their genetics and/or grow knowledge and now feel the need to protect their hard work and genetics

Overall, what are your thoughts? dispensary owners, patients, caregivers...everybody please chime in :hippy:

[copobo]

it's not just you. what could we expect? I bet about 98% of the suppliers were knocked out of the non-black market trade. Dispensaries are wasting a ton of effort and $$ on regs that they are not spending on getting better.

[COfluffhead]

Pigpen! :)

[HighPopalorum]

No effect. Prices are way down, but the selection hasn't changed. There's still the same old crap, and there's still good dope to be found.

[quetzal]

The regs have affected different dispensaries in different ways, mostly depending on the resources (finances + expertise) that the dispensary possesses plus their priorities going forward. One dispensary that had outstanding products in 2009 for super cheap I've noticed has now raised prices considerably for what I saw as signficantly inferior stuff, not to mention the change in employee/bud-tender attitudes and knowledge (also inferior now).

On the other hand, the only dispensary I've visited recently surprised me by the quality of genetics and grown/cured product. Obviously a place that had the resources to transition through the regulations while keeping quality up.

But really, quality comes and goes depending on the grower. The negative effects that 2010 as a whole-the year of regulation-brought are more related to rights of individuals in patient/care-giver capacity, the concentration of control/wealth in the MMJ system, and the general re-focusing of priorities toward larger centers. It sets us up nicely for general patient/activist complacency in 2011.

[SoCoMMJ]

I honestly believe that we have not faltered on quality in the transition from being caregivers to the dispensary level. Most things have actually improved due to scale.

More patients and higher plant counts have allowed a much wider range of genetics. We have 50+ mothers now in a 10k sq ft show, where as caregivers we could only wrangle 6-10 strains into the continuous cycle in 700sq ft.

My apprentice grower keeps nute/ph levels and schedule actions much tighter and regimented in the garden than I ever could. This leaves me with more time to prune, evaluate, and inspect the plants intimately. I can check in with every mom, clone, veg, and flowering plant in the facility every single day and dictate change as needed.

Processing on larger scale has also seen improvement and standardization in curing and packaging. When you have full time trimmers on staff, they become very good at what they do. Digital hygrometers, stable temp and humidity in processing areas, as well as multiple QC checks along the way keep the meds tidy.

Maybe we're an exception because we don't use contract growers, but I can honestly say that I haven't seen the huge demise in patient care or product quality that's been predicted. Sometimes bigger can be better. Although I do have to admit that I have a difficult time remembering all the patient's names now . :) My partner runs the front end so I don't get to interact with patients as much as I did. But she's better with the people side of it than me anyways.

So, I guess it works out to more individuals becoming better experts at their little slice of the whole pie.

Someday we do hope to actually pull a paycheck without having to raise prices to do it :)

[canaguy27]

Processing on larger scale has also seen improvement and standardization in curing and packaging.

What do you use to cure on a larger scale? I am just curious.

[SoCoMMJ]

What do you use to cure on a larger scale? I am just curious.

We trim onto screens that fit into a giant sized tote converted to dry box. This box has a tiny fan to keep air moving through the box. They run in the dry box for about 24 hours to remove the bulk of the surface moisture, greatly reducing the chance of mold.

When the buds are removed from the screens they get moved either into large tupperware or the black garden trays and are covered to slow the drying and draw out internal moisture from the buds. Buds are turned daily and allowed varying levels of air depending on the moisture content.

After a week or so of slow drying in trays they are sealed in tupperware and burped until the enclosed hygrometer reads between 55%-58% humidity.
At that point, the buds are vacuum sealed into 1/2oz and 1oz jars and continue to cure in the jar until sold. Sealed at a higher humidity will risk molding in the jar, while humidity under 55% will be over dry and prevent the bud from curing.

Since we only sell prepackaged sealed jars, the bud can not over dry in the display case before it reaches the patient.

Hope that helps...curing in Colorado can be tricky due to the extreme lack of humidity, especially in winter.

[canaguy27]

Hope that helps...curing in Colorado can be tricky due to the extreme lack of humidity, especially in winter.

When you have them in the tupperware, do you find that the plastic negatively effects the end product?

[COfluffhead]

I do the initial cure in plastic tupperware, and after everything has cured, I give my patients their share and I put the rest in glass jars

[puntacometa]

[quote=SoCoMMJ]I honestly believe that we have not faltered on quality in the transition from being caregivers to the dispensary level. Most things have actually improved due to scale.

More patients and higher plant counts have allowed a much wider range of genetics. We have 50+ mothers now in a 10k sq ft show, where as caregivers we could only wrangle 6-10 strains into the continuous cycle in 700sq ft.

My apprentice grower keeps nute/ph levels and schedule actions much tighter and regimented in the garden than I ever could. This leaves me with more time to prune, evaluate, and inspect the plants intimately. I can check in with every mom, clone, veg, and flowering plant in the facility every single day and dictate change as needed.

Processing on larger scale has also seen improvement and standardization in curing and packaging. When you have full time trimmers on staff, they become very good at what they do. Digital hygrometers, stable temp and humidity in processing areas, as well as multiple QC checks along the way keep the meds tidy.

Maybe we're an exception because we don't use contract growers, but I can honestly say that I haven't seen the huge demise in patient care or product quality that's been predicted. Sometimes bigger can be better. Although I do have to admit that I have a difficult time remembering all the patient's names now . :) My partner runs the front end so I don't get to interact with patients as much as I did. But she's better with the people side of it than me anyways.

So, I guess it works out to more individuals becoming better experts at their little slice of the whole pie.
I don't see that 1284 has anything to do with this. It was possible to do all of these things long before 1284. You just had much more variety and many more options available. Sure, there were and will always be growers who are careless, but no one was forcing dispensaries to buy their product. In some cases nowadays, this is exactly what is happening because the DOR is requiring centers who can't grow their 70% to accept growers who are homeless but are willing to be processed through the new regulations. I have seen this happen.


Someday we do hope to actually pull a paycheck without having to raise prices to do it :)

The DOR doesn't care about this. Raise prices all you want, as long you can sell it so they get their cut.

[SoCoMMJ]

[QUOTE]
I don't see that 1284 has anything to do with this.


HB10-1284 forced us to either scale way back or move forward and expand to the dispensary level. Had it not passed we would most likely be rocking the small warehouse part time.


[QUOTE]
The DOR doesn't care about this. Raise prices all you want, as long you can sell it so they get their cut.

While the DOR may not care, I am farily certain that the patients might. The goal is to provide top quality at the lowest prices. I think we're there so far.

[senorx12562]

I don't know, but it seems like what I grow just gets better, regardless of what the legislature or Dept. of Health do. Weird, huh?

[COCannabisToker]

i think quality and selection has definitely gone down. I was a regular at an MMC in denver, but after being sold 'medicine' that had seeds in it, it was still very very very wet, and several times been sold chemically, unflushed herb. Probably happened 5 or 6 times before I got smart and stopped going. They used to have top notch medicine that was properly flushed and cured, but now they are just trying to pump out as much commercial grade shit as possible. My only beef was that i was told each time that it was 'real fire and the most potent strain on the shelf'. I just wish more MMC's were honest about their product. Tell me if its still wet, or if it may have a seed or two in there, or if its not going to taste good at all. I know not every MMC has lost sight of the patient and what is best for the patient, but i think many MMC's have lost that sight. I am still searching for a new spot to sign over my plants to them. I know growing my own would be the best option, but i just dont have the space or funds to do that right now. Maybe someday i will.

[AuggieWest]

The dispensaries who are not good growers have had a steep decline in quality while the dispensaries who have the talent & the resources are always getting better it seems plus their cost has come down. Have you ever heard of a "stock picker's market"? Well, this is a dispensary/grower picker's market.

[MtnLionCO]

its an economic enviornment for opportunity for the right person, thats why 100s of idiots are popping up thinking its easy money, what they forget is they have no business training or common sense. i boycott all dispensaries until they form a standard of quality control.

[TheReleafCenter]

I'll admit, I had this all wrong. I was thinking top MMC's would horde what they had and shut everyone out. Instead, everyone overproduced and dropped prices dramatically. The business was, and still is, patient acquisition. If you can't sell retail, your wholesale won't keep you afloat.

The question of "quality", to me, seems a little exaggerated. If you want a top of the line genetic that's trimmed perfectly and cured for a couple months then you sound more like a connoisseur than a patient. I understand there are a lot of connoisseurs on here, and that's certainly not intended as a slight.

Patients have access to unprecedented numbers of strains, lines of edibles, and cannabis extracts. It's rare that I hear someone simply cannot find something that helps with their illness. We need to remain cognizant of that fact.

[COfluffhead]

The question of "quality", to me, seems a little exaggerated. If you want a top of the line genetic that's trimmed perfectly and cured for a couple months then you sound more like a connoisseur than a patient. I understand there are a lot of connoisseurs on here, and that's certainly not intended as a slight.


besides the "top of the line genetic", shouldn't all of that be standard? I think a good trim and a good cure should be mandatory, not something that separates patient quality vs connoisseur quality.

[TheReleafCenter]

besides the "top of the line genetic", shouldn't all of that be standard? I think a good trim and a good cure should be mandatory, not something that separates patient quality vs connoisseur quality.

Good trim and good cure? Sure. But that's different from what I said.

[COfluffhead]

IMO connoisseurs care less about the strain and more about how well it was grown/processed. I'll take well grown Skunk #1 over poorly grown OG Kush

[neversummer]

The question of "quality", to me, seems a little exaggerated. If you want a top of the line genetic that's trimmed perfectly and cured for a couple months then you sound more like a connoisseur than a patient. I understand there are a lot of connoisseurs on here, and that's certainly not intended as a slight.

Patients have access to unprecedented numbers of strains, lines of edibles, and cannabis extracts. It's rare that I hear someone simply cannot find something that helps with their illness. We need to remain cognizant of that fact.

This attitude is why your shop is schwag. Don't make excuses for your poorly grown weed. Medical marijuana should be the highest quality possible. Medical patients deserve and expect the highest quality medicine because they depend on it for their well being and also pay a lot of money. I didn't pay $300 for a card and $50 plus tax for some schwag. Besides most medical patients grow their own and now what quality is. Its the people who don't have a card, the recreational occasional users who shouldn't worry about quality Medical users have a thousand options for medicine and should only smoke the best of the best. Dank makes me happy. Shcwag = sad I miss the golden goat and the white fire and the ghost. Yummy.

[copobo]

competition would improve everyone's quality. unfortunately the regulatory scheme stifles competition and forces commercial operators to worry about everything else. eventually, hopefully, more of the shops catch up. for those of us that aren't trying to make money and are at 5 patients or less, we have every incentive in the world to teach people to grow and take care of themselves and their loved ones with properly grown and cured medicine. MMCs will always serve a vital role, but until the state gets realistic with the over-regulation they are going to be worried about the camera and weighing stuff and 99 pages of regs instead of great genetics, great grow, great cure.

It'll be a long time before any MMCs can store 3-6 months (let alone a year) in proper cure.

[senorx12562]

This attitude is why your shop is schwag. Don't make excuses for your poorly grown weed. Medical marijuana should be the highest quality possible. Medical patients deserve and expect the highest quality medicine because they depend on it for their well being and also pay a lot of money. I didn't pay $300 for a card and $50 plus tax for some schwag. Besides most medical patients grow their own and now what quality is. Its the people who don't have a card, the recreational occasional users who shouldn't worry about quality Medical users have a thousand options for medicine and should only smoke the best of the best. Dank makes me happy. Shcwag = sad I miss the golden goat and the white fire and the ghost. Yummy.
The distinction between"medical" users and "recreational" users vis-a-vis "quality" (whatever that means) and whether one's expectations with respect to same are justified is a false dichotomy. Quality can be defined in so many different ways that your statement is essentially meaningless. Quality is defined as whatever the person buying it defines it as, no one else, since, as you say, they are paying for it, Why should "medical" users be any more entitled to get what they want than anyone else? If the product doesn't meet your expectations, don't buy it. Did Releaf sell you some oregano or something to justify such vitriol?

[asscore]

I really don't think quality is that subjective. This is what my weed looks like...

http://i52.tinypic.com/23vc3o2.jpg

And this is what most dispensary (warehouse) weed looks like...

http://cannabis.com/files/photos/c902b497eb97228L.jpg

Yeah, I know mine is purple so that is kinda cheating and all, but here is a pic of some Super Dawg...

http://i54.tinypic.com/fvy13q.jpg

If it smells great, and looks great (well trimed,full of trichromes), tastes great (dried properly, good cure), and gets you really high - it's good herb.

If your missing anything in that list, not so good.

What sucks is everything is so flooded with the crappy stuff I cant get rid of my good stuff. And that just aint right. I'm used to people appreciating (and knowing) the difference. Some people here know the difference, it just doesn't seem to matter.

It's definitely not what I expected when I moved out here...

[senorx12562]

I really don't think quality is that subjective. This is what my weed looks like...

http://i52.tinypic.com/23vc3o2.jpg

And this is what most dispensary (warehouse) weed looks like...

http://cannabis.com/files/photos/c902b497eb97228L.jpg

Yeah, I know mine is purple so that is kinda cheating and all, but here is a pic of some Super Dawg...

http://i54.tinypic.com/fvy13q.jpg

If it smells great, and looks great (well trimed,full of trichromes), tastes great (dried properly, good cure), and gets you really high - it's good herb.

If your missing anything in that list, not so good.

What sucks is everything is so flooded with the crappy stuff I cant get rid of my good stuff. And that just aint right. I'm used to people appreciating (and knowing) the difference. Some people here know the difference, it just doesn't seem to matter.

It's definitely not what I expected when I moved out here...
"Quality" is utterly subjective. In ANY context, not just weed (sorry, medicine). Start with Plato if you care to actually find out what those before you might have thought.

[HighPopalorum]

I think we all mean the same thing when we talk about quality in marijuana. As asscore said: a thick forest of intact trichs, a close haircut, a proper cure and potent effect. It's been a while since I read Plato, but I'm pretty sure he said the same thing.

[MMDInsuranceCo]

Some articles on Colorado's mmj industry from findmypot.com:

What happened to the pot of gold in Coloradoâ??s medical marijuana industry?

Thereâ??s a misconception in Coloradoâ??s medical marijuana industry that if you open a dispensary, your life will be paved with gold. The truth of the matter isâ??medical marijuana dispensaries are broke.

There are several reasons that have contributed to this dilemma. Many individuals that decided to start a medical marijuana business may have experience and knowledge about growing cannabis, however, they have no experience operating a business.

The industry now entails complex regulations, high fees, contracts, employees, legal expenses, and marketing. The new rules and regulations are hundreds of pages in length and fees paid by dispensaries have been thousands of dollars. In addition, the number of dispensaries that opened their doors has surpassed the demand for patients needing medicine. This is especially the situation in Denver. The economics of supply and demand have negatively impacted revenues and profitability. Read More (http://www.findmypot.com/2011/01/25/there-no-pot-of-gold-colorados-medical-marijuana-industry/)

Westwords William Breathes wonâ??t smoke cannabis with powdery mildew (http://www.findmypot.com/2011/01/27/1810/)

[COfluffhead]

lol

"William Breathes" is a close personal friend of mine

there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for selling dirty meds, whether it's powdery mildew, pesticides (organic or not, doesn't matter), spidermites, bud rot, etc....

this industry is so ass backwards, you can't have a felony for marijuana and work in this industry, but you can be a moron with no business growing/distributing mmj and you are welcome with open arms in this industry. Greed and stupidity are the reasons why most dispensaries suck

[TheReleafCenter]

I think we all mean the same thing when we talk about quality in marijuana. As asscore said: a thick forest of intact trichs, a close haircut, a proper cure and potent effect. It's been a while since I read Plato, but I'm pretty sure he said the same thing.

I still think there is a difference between medical grade and connoisseur quality, and that the latter is far more discussed on here. For what it's worth, some of the strains I've seen with the least jar appeal have had the highest potency. What is pleasing to the eye isn't always the best smoke.

[HighPopalorum]

I'm in agreement there. I think what you call connoisseurs (I consider myself one.) place very high value on aesthetics. An extra quarter inch of trim or bruised trichs isn't really going to affect the medical user's experience, but it's enough to turn off a lot of connoisseurs.

[copobo]

no need to be too philosophical about quality.

[HighPopalorum]

no need to be too philosophical about quality.

I looked and looked for a good Plato quote on weed, but came up empty.